Triple Click - We Love a Good Villain

Episode Date: September 23, 2021

Villains: we all hate'em, but what would video games be without them? This week, Kirk, Jason, and Maddy try to figure out what makes a good bad guy. From Deathloop's Julianna to Final Fantasy VII's Sephiroth, antagonists can be brilliant and memorable. But why do we love to hate them? What makes them so fiendishly appealing? And just what is the deal with Kefka?One More Thing: Kirk: Golf Club WastelandMaddy: Get In The Car, Loser!Jason: EastwardJason’s Five Rules for a Good Video Game Villain:1. They have a good motivation2. They’re way stronger than the protagonist3. They have a personal connectin to the protagonist4. They have a striking look5. They or their actions are present throughout the gameLinks:Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Being good takes effort, but it also takes effort to be bad in an interesting way. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. This week we talk about video game villains. What makes them tick? If there isn't a good answer to that question, they're probably not going to impress us very much. I'm Maddie Myers. I'm Jason Shire. And I'm Kirk Hamilton, and hello.

Hello. Hello to both of you. It's us. episodes. Yeah. Guess what? We are a podcast and like so many podcasts, we're part of a podcast network. I just think that's cool. It is cool. But what's really cool about it is that the network that we're a part of maximum fun, they do this thing where you can become a member. And once you're a member, you get to have access to bonus content that all the podcasts on the network create, even if you're only saying that you want to support us, like just our show. Like, let's say you only like

triple click and you just only want to support us and you went to maximum fund.org slash join and you were like, sure, I'll pay $5 a month for that. But you only want to support triple click. But then you get bonus content for every other show. Isn't that cool? I just think it's pretty nice. And a monthly bonus episode. Yeah, for us. Yeah. Not every show does this. Monthly month. But we do every single month. We do a bonus episode. What's this month's bonus episode? I'm just going to let Kirk say what it is because it's his baby. It's his Montero. It is.

It really is my Montero. It is us talking about everything Half-Life 2, both of the Half-Life episodes, Half-Life Alex, even Epistle 3, the future of the Half-Life series, and Half-Life 2 some more, too. It's going to be very fun, and that's coming out, I think, next week. That'll be in the bonus podcast feed. And if you become a member right now, we will throw in a set of stuff. steak knives. We will throw them at you and you will dodge them expertly. Speaking of throwing knives at people, Kirk, what are we talking about this week? Well, this week we're talking about

people in video games that you kind of want to throw a knife at. That's right. We're talking about villains and it's a hot topic. So we're just going to talk about video game villains because man, sometimes a video game is only as good as it's villains. And we've run across a lot of pretty amazing villains. Even just this year in the game. that we've been talking about, and I just thought it would be something kind of fun to talk about. So let's start with just a really quick definition, or not even definition, like a sort of qualification of... The 10 point spectrum of the video game villain.

There is a definition. There's a different villain Turbo Plus. I've been working on a definition and on some terms that we'll get into in a minute, but for starters, I actually want to be a little bit more subjective and just ask the two of you, what makes a good video game villain? I know Jason has some specific thoughts on this, so Maddie, How about you go first? What makes a good video game villain just in a few sentences? I didn't prepare a complex rubric for this. I'm just going off the dome here.

That's totally fine. I would say the most important thing is that the villain needs to have a motivation. It can be really simple. Usually the hero also has this or any other characters that you meet who you learn anything about also have some motivation, some conflict that they overcome. But the villains should have that too, something that they're actually trying to do. I don't think this is necessary, but some of my favorite villains also have some humanizing aspect to them, something where there's a part of you that sympathizes with them or perhaps a very large part of you that sympathizes with them and kind of wants them to win or at least as curious about what that would be like. I think that adds some contention. This is called the Kilmonger Corollary.

Yeah, the Magneto, if you will. There are plenty of great examples of villains where you kind of think they're right, you know? Right. Yes. So Jason, I know you have some more complicated thoughts on what makes a good villain. So tell us, Jason, what makes a good video game villain? I've thought about this a ton over the years because like you, Kirk, I have long felt like a video game story specifically is often, not always, but most of the time, often, as good as its main villain. If it's that type of story. Of course, there are stories that are like player versus environment or man versus environment to use the kind of the classic narrative term. man versus man versus man versus god man versus nature blah blah blah but here are my rules i have five rules for a good a good villain um and i think this can apply i think this is specifically for video games but it can apply to any storytelling one like mattie just said has a good motivation for doing

what they're doing and it has to go a little bit beyond just like rah rah i am evil so i want to destroy the world which is so often the games in video games right not that's not a good motivation no it's not a good motivation okay wow kefka having a rough So he has a motivation, but it's not explaining the game. Okay, we're not going to talk about Kafka yet. What's number two? Two, clearly way stronger than the protagonist, at least at first. Interesting, okay.

You have to have something to overcome, which is why the classic JRP thing is to have an unwinnable battle where the villain like fights you and you can't win and it's meant to show you that. Three, some sort of personal connection to the protagonist. That doesn't mean they have to be related. it doesn't mean they have to like know each other, but there has to be some personal connection, whether it's the villain, killed the protagonist's father,

or like the villain has some nugget in their past that is connected to the protagonist. There has to be some sort of connection. Like they were both in the soldier program together. Exactly, exactly. That doesn't make any sense. The main character looked up to the antagonists for a long time, that sort of thing.

Number four. Looks different than anyone else in the game. Not necessarily like... I thought you were just going to say it looks different than the hero and I was like, yeah, actually, that's a pretty good point. No, so... They shouldn't be identical twins or should they?

Well, they can be. Dark Sammas and Sammas and they're pretty similar. Interesting, interesting. I would say Dark Samus qualifies as a bad villain by my rubric. Wow. I don't... The villain doesn't necessarily have to be like

some massive imposing just like eight foot tall like beast or something like that, but they have to be striking. They have to have an aesthetic. that makes you look at them and say, oh, this is an important character. Number five, their actions are present throughout the whole game. So, like, as you're playing through the game, you see kind of the consequences of what they're trying to do or what they're doing,

and that is always clear. You're not going to go 20 hours without ever seeing them, without them ever actually doing anything to thwart you or to affect the world in some way. And those are my five rules. Nice. Let me read those back to you just because, I think those are pretty good. Number one, they need a good motivation.

Number two, they need to be way stronger than you, but at least at the beginning. Number three, they need a personal connection to the protagonist. Number four, they need to look different from anyone else in the game. That one's a little bit gooey, but okay. And then number five,

they need to be present throughout the game. That's good. I think four should just be, they look cool. They look cool. They don't have to look different. They just have to look cool. I think by look different,

I just mean that like, like, they can't be another freaking, like MPC, like you would recognize them if you saw them in a crowd of people. I like those. It's interesting because it's a lot of just what makes for a good character. I mean, I would just say that a villain needs to be a good character. You can't just have

a sort of mindless enemy that you're fighting against because that's just a lot. That's not a villain. It can be okay in a video game context, but it's not the thing that we're talking about. So I wanted to get a little bit into terms and there are kind of three types of similar and overlapping

concepts like character types. like archetypes, I guess, that I think are interesting to keep in mind when you're talking about villains. And those are a villain, which is the sort of catch-all on the thing that we're talking about. There's also an antagonist. And then there's just a boss. And I think that, like, a lot of villains and characters, people who are referred to as villains in video games, tend to fall into some of those categories, but not others. I came up with some examples.

So the alien in alien isolation, I would say that that is an antagonist. It follows you throughout the game, which is your number five, Jason. And it's very much the whole game is just being chased by this thing. You can never kill it. And it never even really becomes a boss fight at the end. And I would not call it a villain. I would say it's a pure antagonist. It just antagonizes you throughout the game.

Similarly, I think like the Titans in Resident Evil or some other Resident Evil bosses, they're also antagonists, the ones that chase you through the level. But then they also become bosses usually, and you fight them at the end of it. Like in Resident Evil Village, you always fight the sort of overseer at the end. So that's antagonist plus boss. I wouldn't say, I actually think that Resident Evil Village sort of lacks for a good villain. There's Mother Miranda, but she's not, she's the closest thing to a villain, but she's not actually a great villain. So that, it's like a bunch of smaller boss antagonists, but there's sort of no great villain in that game.

Yeah, whereas I thought you were going to say Wesker is the obvious villain for most Resident Evil games, where he's not necessarily a boss or, and sometimes he's an antagonist, but he's definitely the villain. because his machinations in at least most versions of the story are why everything's happening. Or like, I guess you could say Spencer's machinations. I mean, it depends which piece of Resident Evil lore we want to talk about. But I get your distinction where the villain is the interesting character whose motivations you might understand, but maybe they're not a boss you ever fight and maybe they're not specifically challenging you in every game. And while Wesker is sort of an overlying villain for Resident Evil, He's not present in a way, like in village, there's like a note from him or something

at one point in the game. He's not present in a way that makes him an actual villain in that game. He's not there anymore, really. Yeah. So a few more examples, Valkyries and God of War, those are just bosses. Like, those aren't, they're not villains. They're not antagonists. They don't follow you around.

You literally just go into an arena and you fight them one after the other. You're really the villain in that scenario. I guess, right. That Kratos kind of is the villain, especially early God of War games. That is actually true. Aries is like kind of the villain, but really in the end, Kratos kind of becomes the villain. Metal Gear Solid 3, I think Metal Gear

Bosses are interesting because they're bosses that are so good that they almost transcend Boston and become more than that, which a villain does feel like an elevated boss, but I don't know. What about the boss in Metal Gear Solid 3? Well, and that's interesting. We can get into that a little bit, because that's like, sometimes villains who were

friends or who were actually people who are on your team who then become enemies, that can really make for a great villain. If it's someone you've actually been working alongside who then betrays you. Then the last example is just because I've been playing the Great Ace Attorney Chronicles is the prosecutors in those games, I think, are a really interesting character archetype where they're an antagonist that's like not trying to kill you or anything.

They're always just fighting against you and pushing against you. But there's a moment in every case, like in Great Ace Attorney Chronicles, this guy, Van Zeeke, who's an amazing character. He's like this sexy vampire racist, is how I would describe him, basically. and he's always drinking his chalice of wine and throwing it around. One of the greatest moments in every case is when he slams his leg up onto his desk. He rules, but there's always, there will be the moment in your cross-examination when you finally begin to really nail down what happened.

And he always comes around in every case. He's much more interested in the truth. And they'll try to weasel out of it on the stand. They'll ask him for help. They'll be like, can't you see what this defense attorney is doing? And he'll be like, no way, man. answer the question and soon he's like on your side and so the kind of thrill of those games is winning an antagonist over with your just like dogged persistence until the two of you bring the thing in

at the end so that is also what's interesting about those games is that there's usually also like a villain pulling strings behind the scene the whole time you just don't know right who the villain is or like what their deal is which i think can also fit my rubric my five rules like none of those say that you necessarily have to know that this person is a villain or know who the villain is even when I say they're present throughout the game by the way I specifically said their actions are present throughout the game because you don't have to be seeing them you just see the

consequences of what they're doing right right right although in an ace attorney game they don't have a personal connection to anyone necessarily other than the murder they usually do no they usually do there's usually personal connection to Phoenix right or to right like there's an overarching thing

that's only turns up in the final in the final like chapter it's even in the older ones you look at like the first Ace Attorney game and that whole story, the villain has this personal connection to Edgeworth and as a result, Phoenix. Like there's a lot of personal connections there for sure.

Well, and that can be like the twist villain. There's a great twist villain in a recent Ace Attorney game. I won't say which one, but there's a great moment where a character you've been talking to the whole game is revealed to be the ultimate villainous mastermind. Bioshawk is another good example that's easier to talk about without spoiling anything and also more people know Bioshack.

That's an interesting one because that is a game that, I don't know, like would you say that Andrew Ryan is a villain is a villain throughout that game? He's not really present, but his whole, obviously his influence is very felt throughout the game just because he built this city. Yeah, I

would say he is in a sort of similar way to like Spencer is in the Resident Evil games where it's like, okay, an ideology has infected people in this world and this sort of demagogue character has had their influence felt in some previous time, or that's

why there's a conflict here, I would still call him a villain in the larger context of the world. But you're right, he isn't, he isn't the same as like a big daddy or whatever. Well, and they, well, and that game has this whole villain problem at the end where he's kind of, he's taunting you throughout the game. He's on your radio, you know, and then you kill him in this incredible sequence that should have been the end of the game. And then instead of it being the end of the game, is his name Fontaine, the guy who has like been pretending to be the other guy and then reveals that he's been controlling you the whole time.

Like Fontaine is like the villain and he's the final boss and there's that terrible fight right where you're in a room and you're trying to like he's like a huge monster or something and it's just that whole part feels really stupid. So it's like the game kind of subverts the whole idea of a villain by like having you kill him in a cutscene. And then it's like oh but we still need to have a true villain

that you go and fight because it's a video game. Very much. Yeah, you can sniff out the publisher influences on that one that we. have to hit this checklist. We have to have a final boss here. So I'm looking at games we've talked about recently on the show that we've talked about so many video games. We play a lot of games. I don't see The Lastoist Part 2 on this list. I don't know. Oh, that should be there. That should be there. I don't know why I brought this up. I'm sorry. Kirk's writing it in right now. I just sort of have made this list. So the villain is the player.

The villain is me for adding in The Last of Us Part 2. But it's fine. Well, I mean, that's so that game is interesting. You were talking about Kratos earlier. I think that a game that casts you as the villain or as you do villainous actions can be very interesting. I do think that while I, of course, have some complaints, especially with like the final chapters or The Last of Us Part 2, a lot of what it's doing is like really, really ambitious shit with story. And it's amazing. And the fact that not only do they have you, you know, they reveal Ellie's actions to be pretty monstrous very unambiguously throughout the game, just like the first one to the Joel, by then, switching and having you play as Abby as well. It like further complicates the issue to the point

where it actually kind of almost becomes a mess, you could say. But it is really, it's really ambitious in the way that it does that. Like having you actually control the other person that you were fighting against in the game, which is one of the only times I've ever done that in a game, certainly on that scale. Yeah. I mean, that's part of why I think it's more frustrating for me because I actually think the idea is really fun and not something I think I've ever played a game that, did that before either, where you play as the character who you think is the heroic one, and then you switch perspectives to be that person's villain, and then you plays them for a little while, and then you switch back and forth for a while, and you're like, oh, both of them are each

other's villain, and I don't know who I sympathize with, and the climactic battle at the end is like no one wins, and they are both terrible, and you're rooting for no one, and you're just waiting for the game to end, which I think is part of why no game has. ever done something like that before? Because if you try to both villainize and humanize both halves of the coin, of the equation, then you're like, well, what, who's, how do we, how do we, how do we wrap this up? This is like, SpecOps, the line plays with this as well. Actually, Far Cry 2 kind of plays with this too, where, like, there are reveals toward the end of the game about who your character really is, and then you reflect on what's going on. I mean, SpecOps is much more

sort of outre about it. It's much more high concept, but Far Cry is kind of this really straightforward story. But both of them, you look back at the end and you're like, oh, you know, are we the baddies? Like, was I the baddie? The whole time. And it is, it's a profound thing the first time you see it. It's a very interesting thing, but it starts to become the same thing every time because video games like require a degree of complicity, I guess, to play them. So to always be finding that you're the villains just loses its luster after a couple of times. I would also argue that Ellie is not a great villain because of, reason number one, the one you brought out Maddie and the one that was number one in my

rubric, which is that her motivation doesn't make sense. And it makes sense for most of the game until that final cutscene where it's like, oh, actually, she did get closure after all. And she did find out what he did after all. So there was no reason for her to be doing any of this. And the whole story really made no sense. Yeah, I really struggled. So I remember the last of us too. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So what if, okay, what if that had just been a dream she had? Ah. Oh, God. Here we go. Here we go. Also, we were dead the whole time when we played it. Do you like it then?

Is that good? So while we're talking about villains, I think it is interesting to look at games that don't have villains and still succeed. Because obviously some types of games just don't need villains. There isn't a villain in the Outer Wilds, for example. There isn't a villain. Well, there is. The villain in the Outer Wilds is like entropy and the slow collapse.

That's not a villain, though. I mean, I know that you can make an argument, But that's like saying the city in Grand Theft Auto is a character. Like, yes, but it's also not actually a character. Right. It's not a character. Like I mentioned before, it's kind of like the classic storytelling conflict, where there's always some sort of conflict in a story.

And usually it's person versus person. But like sometimes it'll be person versus nature and like person versus things they can't control. And I think Outer Wilds is just a good example of that. And that's why the story resonates. And you're right, it doesn't have a villain. But because it has that kind of classic conflict that is driving the entire story. story, it really works well as a story despite the not. Like really what we're talking about when we talk about a villain is that like the central conflict is really strong in that story. And the conflict

doesn't work like when a villain doesn't work when the conflict doesn't work as well. And the conflict doesn't work as well when the villain doesn't have a strong motivation. The villain is boring or whatever. But but the environment doesn't need a motivation. It just is. Right. It just is. And one of the most interesting things, one of the coolest things about using the environment or nature as a conflict or just like forces beyond our control is that you don't try to understand them. You just kind of have to battle them and like hope for the best. And it can be really interesting when you parallel our own world and climate change and all sorts of other interesting stuff.

Yeah, I think that to drill down on that a little bit, the conflict with a villain specifically, it is just one avenue of conflict you can have. And it's a very narrative and very character-based type of conflict. So villains tend to turn up in very narrative and character-based games. where the Outer Wilds is just as one example. It is a narrative game in that you uncover this narrative, but it's not character-based, really, I wouldn't say. Like, it isn't that kind of a story, right?

Or a game like The Long Dark or something, like a game where it's kind of just you trying to survive in the middle of nowhere. It can have an amazing story, but it's just such a different kind of story that a villain wouldn't really fit in that game if there was someone on the radio taunting you all the time or something, you know? I listed Monster Hunter here, like that kind of game.

Monster Hunter doesn't have a villain. it's always moving the goalposts with like who the dragon is that's back that you need to deal with. There's always like a bunch of plot shenanigans going on. But that game is just a sort of man versus beast game to use your framework, Jason. And you're kind of just conquering these creatures and, you know, gradually stopping them from destroying your village, I guess, in the most recent one. I would actually say that the conflict in a game like Monster Hunter is man versus self because you're fighting against your own kind of instincts, which might be weak at first and your ability to play the game might be weak at first, but you're gaining them more and more over time. And kind of that's what's interesting about video game storytelling, which is that a lot of

conflicts can be like that because it's the conflict of you as the player, just like learning to get better at the game. And that's how you kind of overcome the conflict in the first time. And I think that is why it's kind of rare for there to be great video game villains. Like why so many games can get away with just sort of having mediocre villains. It's not the same as Marvel movies, even though I always think of Marvel movies because they so often have bad villains. But it's similar in that the primary appeal of both video games and Marvel movies is something other than that stuff, like that deeper character-like type of rewarding conflict. It's more just like with video games. It can just be that it's super fun to play and you really just don't care. And with Marvel movies,

it's like, well, we're just here to see Thor screw around on screen and like make jokes. And it's not that big of a deal that whichever villain he's fighting isn't that cool. So wait, do you think that if Monster Hunter is Pokemon, that it would benefit from Team Rocket also existing within the world of Monster Hunter? Because Team Rocket is obviously the villain of Pokemon and they're the same genre. One is pocket monsters. One is monsters. Right. What if there were like a couple of queer people who kept trying to steal your monster and got soiled in every turn? It might be that people who played Monster Hunter's stories, the recent Pokemon Monster Hunter game that I haven't played, could be being like, there is. There's no Team Rocket in that game. That would be great. I edited Polygon's review of that and I feel like I would remember if that was a part of it. But yeah, sadly, no. Now that I think about it, I do feel like Pokemon games are what Jason said, where it's versus yourself, man versus man. You want to be the very best, like no one ever was. It's not man versus beast. You're just training your Pokemon and also yourself. Well, you have your rival in the Pokemon games also.

But like, who cares? I mean, some of the time, especially with video games, fundamentally it's just not a great story and that we have to kind of like account for that when we're trying to analyze the villains. That it just might not be like that there isn't anything there and that it's not the story that people are playing this game for. I mean, there is the moment later in a Pokemon game

when, you know, Pikachu takes the mask off and reveals who he truly is and kills your whole village. Yeah, that part's pretty same. They do have a villain in that respect. Yeah, Mew 2 was right, so we kind of get it at that point. Yeah. One series that I've been thinking about with regards to villain is persona, because I think persona does some interesting stuff with antagonism and villainousness.

There isn't like a big villain. Well, there are. Persona 4 has a big villain, and Persona 5 has a couple, I guess, a couple of big villains. It's like a series of villains. And I mean, Camoshita, the gym teacher, from the first castle. And Persona 5 is a fantastic villain as long as that goes on. And that sequence does last as long as some video games.

So maybe he counts. But I think that it's cool that there is also a sort of element of going into the psyche of future friends who are currently antagonists and are in a kind of unhappy place, which is also something that would happen in Persona 4. And you have to actually fight a version of their insecurities to win them over to your side, And then they become your friends. And also, I don't remember this happens in persona four. It definitely happens in persona five.

There are characters on your team who then become villains at other points, like who betray you. There are twists like that as well. So they play with a lot of that kind of stuff in those games. And I think they're able to do it, I guess, partly because they're going inside of people's minds and you get to, like, see their motivations be manifest and, like, you know, then cast fireballs at them. Yeah.

Yeah, that's kind of one of the classic JRP tropes. and this is kind of exemplified with Final Fantasy 7 is allowing a villain to be part of your party for a little bit in some way or another. It might be just because they're going to betray you. There's a great moment in Fantasy Star 4 where you wind up recruiting this guy who is like very clearly a villain

and actually uses like abilities that are like dark nightmare and everyone's just like, oh yeah, okay, join a party. And then five seconds later he turns out to be a villain. But also in Final Fantasy 7, I mentioned that because part of the reason, one of the reason Sephiroth is such an iconic and excellent villain is that from the very beginning he joins your party

and he just so dominates every single monster and like his abilities are just ridiculous. Like he just has the highest level spells like 9,999 damage to everything he touches. And I think that can be a really effective way of showing you who a character is only for them to set, only to then set them up as a villain for later. Plus he looks cool, which was one of your roles as well.

He has a really long sword. Severoth really fits all the rubric. Really long bangs and long hair. Sweet bangs, always surrounded by fire, loves his mother. I do think that that sequence in the original FF7 when you fight alongside him is a cool way of using knowledge of the game. The fact that you've played just long enough to have a sense of how powerful you are, to have a sense of what a good attack is, like what a good number is, to see and then you see his numbers coming off of him.

It's like just at the right moment where you think, oh, okay, so this is supposed to seem just impossibly out of reasoning. And then, you know, that establishes that number two that he is way more powerful than you. And of course, you probably know that you're going to have to fight him. So, yeah, that makes sense. Wait, wait. So, Jason, can we talk about Kafka really quick?

Do you think Kefka is a bad villain according to your own rubric? Well, I think that he qualifies for most of the things. I would say he qualifies as way stronger than the protagonist, clearly has a personal connection, looks different, like their actions are present throughout the game. Motivation is a tricky one because, like,

there is some canon stuff that like, and like if you talk to the right MPC, you get hints of this, that like he, his mind was damaged as part of like Magitech experiments. And that's why he went nuts and started doing what he's doing. But no, there are no,

like his only motivation towards the end of the game is like he wants to become a god for some reason. And he finds you irritating. Yeah, and then when he's a god and he's destroyed the world, he just wants to randomly set towns on fire for not obeying him. Not a lot of it makes tons of sense. You know, though, like there's something to the idea of a malevolent force that doesn't have a strong motivation.

I think you can subvert any one of these if you do it smartly and still have a good villain. I'm thinking about the ring for whatever reason. But the girl in the ring, it is revealed in that movie, that she's not actually looking for closure for being drowned in a well. She's just this pure force of evil. And it's actually an amazing reveal in that movie because it's so much scarier. If she's not like, you know, the whole time it's like, oh, it's this ghost story.

It's like the exorcist or whatever. It's a haunting. We need to figure out what happened to her and like make her spirit whole so she'll move on. And then it's like, no, man. Like, I'm not interested in that at all. I'm a force of pure evil. I'm a demon who's just going to come and eat your face. And like that is a lot scarier.

kind of cool that by removing that, it actually kind of works in the character's favor or in the story's favor in that sense. I think when I'm thinking about the absence of villains, I think about Half-Life II since I just played through the episodes to that game. And that's kind of an interesting one because Half-Life-2, the base game, there is a villain figure, Dr. Breen, who's the guy who's like on the screen all the time. He's very much present. He's very annoying, this kind of smarmy sell out, you know, he's sold out to the combine, and then at the very end, you finally like confront him and he dies. And then he's not present for either of the two episodes, but his absence, like the absence of any clear sort of villain figure in that world, this kind of

terrifying, post-conquered, alien, destroyed world is also really effective because the combine are so alien and so unknowable that if there was a villain communicating with you, even if you were getting weird psychic messages from some combine controller or something like taunting you, it would suck. Like it's so much cooler that that's not

there, even though there is this malevolent presence, there is this force that is unknowable and outside of our dimensional reality that you're always up against. That kind of works really well because it's ambiguous and unknown. So you don't think the G-Man is somewhat villainous? Oh,

boy okay wait now I'm gonna have to I have to rework my premise we have to we have to table this for the Dean's cast we can give people a little tease you can become a member maximumfond org slash join

I mean it's also a topic for that is good we could return to the G man is a villain the G man is nothing the G man is a nonsense character the G man like pops up to be mysterious for the sake of being mysterious I don't know but he's also I don't know man

The G-Man is nonsense. The G-Man is done. Talking about his employers. I've said it before. But he fits all five of these. In fact, I would argue... He fits all of your five things. I would...

No way. What's this motivation? Okay, his motivation is a little... It's ambiguous. But I would say it could be really good. I think it's kind of good, though. I would argue, actually, that this is a hot take. I would argue that Half-Life 2 story is pretty weak until episode 2.

And episode 2 is the only one that has, like, a consistent story. Half-life is, Especially like the originally, you're just being shepherded from place to place. Okay. This is something we're going to have to get into in the beans cast because this isn't about villains. But I think that that's an interesting conversation. But we will table that. Okay.

Anyways, villains. Here's a thought. Destiny. Wasn't it funny how Destiny didn't have a villain? And then they were like, wait a minute. This story sucks without a villain. Let's add some villains. And then over time they kind of started adding them.

And then they finally got some like pretty good villains. And I gather now there are like legitimately good villains in the game. Well, Destiny, too. Sorry, the first destiny became good with Taken King, which was all about a villain who had a super strong motivation. He was like, you killed my fucking son. I'm coming to get you. That was great. 100%.

And the crow in whatever it was called, Foraken, like that was even more because it was like, I'm going to kill your best friend. I'm going to kill Nathan Philean. He's dead. I did it. Come get me. Yeah, he's really dead. It's so wild. I keep expecting him to come back.

He's not back. He's gone. Yeah, the destiny too. Sorry. That's true. He's a busy man. I feel like we're all missing out by not keeping up with it. But I just did not have a place for that game.

Oh, I kept up with it. I could tell you guys about it, but it's just like, do I want to waste your time? Or I don't know. I don't think it's a waste of time. I've heard the story's been pretty good for that game. I kind of figure I'll catch up one day and jump into it one day. Just don't have time right now. They're doing this thing now where the refugee alien characters, they're like the

Elikni. I can't remember alien names. The fallen. The fallen. Yeah. They are now being newly humanized by the, lore and you, the guardian, are the villain in their world. So they're doing that.

So they're pulling a Last of Us too. They are. They are. No, they're not. They're pulling us spec ops, honestly. If we're being real about it, they're pulling a speck off. That has been true of destiny for a long time, that you were viewed as a villain by the fallen because the fallen worshipped the traveler before it left and they're like chasing

after it. The traveler is the villain, if we're also going really hard here. It's kind of true, though. It was kind of terrifying and weird. And like, why does it do anything that it does? We'll never know. It's basically the G-man. Anyway.

Part of destiny lore is that when the earth was under attack and everyone was going to get killed, the traveler was like, all right, peace, I'm out of here. And it was going to leave us just like it left the fallen. But then Rasputin, the war mind was like, no, you have to stay and, like, forced it to stay. And that's the only reason the traveler is even still here. So, yes, there is, it's kind of complicated who the villain might be in destiny. Which is always more fun, in my opinion.

Like, if a world is coming. flex enough that you have multiple villains with different motivations or villainous factions, if you will. That's more interesting to follow. Yeah. Well, the best villains are villains who like leave it ambiguous as to whether they're really villains. Like you mentioned before, Maddie, the ones who are so sympathetic or so interesting and complicated that they make you wonder. Like, hmm, I wonder if this person has a point. Speaking of which, I don't talk about Death Loop for a second, because I just finished that game.

For sure. And I have lots to say about it that hopefully we can talk about soon in a triple play. We'll do an episode about Death Loop. I don't know. But just to focus on the villain for a second, the villain in that game is a woman named Juliana, who is just constantly chasing it and popping up in your games and trying to ruin all your progress.

She is extremely funny. The banter between your main character Colt and Juliana is one of the best things about the game. Like, every, you're just constantly chatting away every time you open up a new mission. But she is a great villain. She fits everything on my rubric. she has strong motivation.

She wants to protect this loop that you're in, and so she has to stop you from breaking it. She has, she's clearly stronger. She has personal connections to you, the protagonist. She looks different. Her actions are present in the other game. There's a lot of good stuff in there. You know what I'll say, too, is in the way stronger than the protagonist department.

So I've played like almost no death loop just enough to play a little bit and be like, oh my God. I was kind of overwhelmed. I played a little and was like, I just want to play this game for a million years. But in the beginning, what's really cool is not only does it begin with her killing you and so clearly demonstrating that she's more powerful than you and she's hunting you throughout the game,

she also knows what's going on and your character doesn't. So from the very beginning, all of the dialogue is two very funny people played very well by two very good actors, but she's just like, dude, keep up, constantly confusing you and taunting you and telling you like, go do this, no, don't do that, go do this. God, do you not know anything? And your guy is like, oh my God,

leave me alone. I don't know what's going on. And that dynamic, it's kind of a similar version of her being more powerful than you. She's also just like, she knows what's going on. She has so much more knowledge than your character does. It's very Glados, very Gladys and Chelle. Yeah. That's true. Another great villain.

We could go on and on. Glottos is just the coolest. When are they going to make Portal 3? You know? Half-Life 3? I don't even care. Portal 3? Yeah, that's the one. What's interesting is that there's some iconic

villains throughout video game history who don't really fit a lot of these criteria like who don't have strong motivations. You look at Bowser, one of the most iconic villains. I was wondering if Bowser was going to come up. His motivation is I want to steal the princess. Loneliness? The everlasting loneliness of the soul.

I feel like that makes perfect sense. Bowser just wants a friend. He's actually pretty relatable. I mean, I don't agree with what he does. Bowser's an in-cell. However, we all know that's a motivation. But Maddie in the original Mario games, he doesn't even like be friends peach or trying to marry her or anything he just sticks her in a dungeon that's

true but that lore has been built upon extensively and now bowser's like kind of friends with mario and they're like buddies and so on so i i don't know bowser's not a bad guy at this point and that's a thing with mario and with zeld with all these long-running nintendo series where the the original villains have become kind of like warm and cuddly at this point like now there are theories about breath of the wild too that you're going to play as ganandor for whatever and like like Bowser's your buddy and in the recent what's it called the Bowser's Fury thank you Bowser's Fury like Bowser Jr's like help me save my dad and you're trying to save him like they've been around for so long that the villains because they were written and gradually made

more sympathetic and understandable just had to become good guys which is a super common thing I mean in comics geez it's like happens all the time like every Batman villain is by now just somebody like every show like Spike or whatever and Buffy the Vampires Slate like this always a guy. It's like, oh, now he's the real villain. Okay, now he's kind of our friend. Because we like him, because we've been watching him for three seasons and getting to know him. I just want to point out that with Bowser, this actually happened in the early 90s, the Super Mario RPG, which was the first game to make Bowser an ally, and he joins your party, and it's like a whole thing because he turns into this

hilarious comic character who is, like, constantly, like, talking about how mad he is to have to team up with Mario and, like, commanding his villains and stuff like that. There's some good stuff in that game. Yeah, so it sounds like you like Bowser, Jason, and he fits all of your criteria. I do like Bowser. Well, that's the thing. Well, I think that like, like Kirk said earlier, for, for as, like, even rubrics, like, if you're subverting stuff in interesting ways, you can make a villain work.

And sometimes, like, a villain can just by sheer force of repetition or, like, sheer, just charming, charm, a villain can become iconic even when they don't have a strong motivation, just because they're there. Look at Ridley, for example. Ridley has become this iconic Metroid villain like we discussed last week and like, what's his motivation? Maybe you know, Maddie, but nobody else does.

I mean, you know, dominating planets. Sure, yeah. Character design goes a long way. Character design does go a long way. That's why it's one of my... You said it was a gooey one, but that's why it's on my rubric. I agree with it at this point. I feel like villains need to look...

I more meant that looks different from anyone else in the game is maybe not how I would phrase it. But we can fine tune that one maybe an edit. Looks striking. Yeah. What I wrote down was that they were they must be striking. That's really the best way of it.

Has a striking look. Because like Lady Demarestk from Resident Evil Village, like a villain that people loved even though in the actual game kind of like not that doesn't do anything. Cool of a character.

Like she sort of comes and goes and there's better characters in the game than her. But just her character design. Yeah, they put all the points into the look striking category for her and they didn't. Right, exactly.

That is like, right, she's an imbalanced. And sometimes marketing can just create a great villain. By the way, another iconic villain, one of the best villains in the game history, I would say, Dangen Rampas, Monocuma, whose motivation is not really his own because he's being controlled by other people most of the time, but is still iconic in everywhere. Yeah, like an antagonist who just through sheer chutzpah becomes a villain, because he just won't shut up and is so funny. Yeah. Although, I would say, Part of what's scary about him, at least at first, is that you don't know what his motivation is.

And it seems as though he has none. Like, he's sort of like a backwards Kefka in that way, where he starts off just seeming like a madman character who has no motivation. And then as time goes on, the twist or whatever twists are revealed. And you're like, oh, this is actually a character who has a reason for doing this. And actually, the more, I mean, as much as I love Dangan Rampa, the more twisty and the more you learn about the world, it starts to just become pretty, this labyrinthine, whatever, where it is at its most effective and creepy when it's the very beginning and there's just this bear, this extremely cheery, psychotic bear on the TV, telling you all to kill each other. And it's like, this is great. Like that works on its own.

It's a mix of, it's like those aesthetic things. Kirk, you're saying that, you're saying that made me want to make you play Dangerumpa v3, the third game so badly. Yeah, well, when it comes to switch, I'm going to finish it. I got like halfway through it when it comes to switch. Oh, nice. Oh, yeah, that's December. Oh, man, we could do a whole episode on Dangeroffense. We should. I never beat the second one. Oh my God.

I'm so excited for you guys. I'm going to play through. I'm going to replay all three of them. I'm so excited. I'll definitely play the third one at that point. But for now, I think that's enough villain talk. Let's take a break and we'll be back for one more thing. Congratulations.

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Join our team. Depression Mode for Maximum Fun, wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back for One More Thing, Maddie Myers. What's your One More Thing? My one more thing is a video game called Get in the Car Loser. It is a new RPG by Christine Love and it came out surprise release today. So I've only played it for like a couple hours, but I was just too excited to not play it. So it rules so far.

I love it. We actually interviewed Christine about this game on the show, on the previous show, split screen at GDC. Jason, you were desperately sick that day and you probably only have a half memory of even being on the show at that point. But I interviewed Christine. Jason was physically present. People can go back and dig up that interview. You press the record button.

Yeah, about this game. So she described it as a lesbian road trip RPG, and I would say that's what it is. But what's also striking about it to me is that the main character, Sam, she is the healer character, and ordinarily that isn't the character who would be the main character in an RPG.

Usually it's Cloud Strife as opposed to Aerith. and you're sort of playing as the heiress character in this. And you're also hanging out with like this cool heroine with a huge sword, very cloud, very Zach, I guess. It's more sort of her vibe. And like her like significant others also there. And like they can punch people and they're like the tank character. And so like the two of them are like the two heavy classes that you are like tagging along to protect.

And just as a narrative conceit, I find it really charming and fun for you, for the narrative focus to be revolved around you. And like the other two characters, much like Juliana and Deathloop, already know everything about the world. And you are the fish out of water who doesn't know about the villain

and thought they were just screwing with you the whole time when they said they were going to save the world and like stop this massive destruction from happening and like steal the sword from their school and all this stuff. And you're like just tagging along like what is happening right now. And that, it's hilarious. The dialogue is super funny.

enjoyable. So it's like a turn-based RPG. It is a turn-based RPG. The combat took me a little while to understand it, but then once I did, I was like, oh, this is really fun. It's not hard. I would say this is a game that's more about the funny dialogue than like min-maxing your stats because Christine Love is sort of known for dating sims and visual novels, and this is her first time making an RPG like this, which is really cool to see her try a new genre. And so, yeah, I didn't really know what to expect from the combat. It's pretty fun so far, but I don't think that's the focus. It's more about like the dialogue and the characters. Is there like any branching to the narrative or is it just a pretty straightforward narrative that you put through? I don't know yet because I'm not far enough, but I could

see that being true. There's some branching dialogue, which is very Christine Love. So I can like decide what kind of person I want Sam to be. I don't know if that's going to play a role. I would predict since it's a Christine Love that there's going to be some dating sim elements at some point. But you're with two different characters, right? Yeah, and I think other characters show up eventually. I think it's a four-player party-based game, but so far there's only three of us. I don't know. I'm really enjoying it. It's also free, and there's a $10 DLC that you can also buy. But if people want to just try it out, it's free. So wait, is the DLC like the bulk of the game and most of it and the free part is a demo? I don't think so. I think she just put out the game for free and was like, if you also want to pay $10 for this other thing, go for it, which is pretty wild. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Also, the soundtrack is really good too. I'm enjoying it. So yeah. It's sort of like how we put out a podcast for free, and then there's a $5 month deal. It's very similar to that. Yeah, it's almost identical to that. I think Christine Love said she's like, you know, I was inspired by what you guys did be triple click for the pricing mile from my new game. They hadn't been found a triple click, but I guessed it on their show when it was a

different show, and I had a premonition that they would do this. Yeah. There we go. Makes sense. Nice. Well, that sounds great. Just what I need another good video game to play. Jason. Get in the car, loser. Sounds cool. Jason, what is your one more thing? Well, I have

bad news for you, Kirk. No, no. I'm playing a new game and it rules. I'm playing a game called Eastward and Eastward

is a game that is published by Chucklfish, which I think really put it on a lot of people's radars because Chucklefish they made, they published Star Do Valley and Starbound

and lots of other cool stuff. They're a really cool publisher that just, they pick good games. And if you look at screenshots for this game for Eastward and you'll see that you'll see immediately why I am enjoying it because it looks like... Yes, I'm... Okay, I just Googled it and I've seen this.

Yes, this looks great. It's like a gorgeous like SNES style. Yes. It's not an RPG but it's very much... It's best described as like the action and dungeons and combat and puzzles and stuff of Zelda mixed with like the quirky humor and charm and

references and stuff of Earthbound. And it's very inspired by Earthbound and it's also extremely inspired by Zelda, like, to the point where every dungeon is like a Zelda dungeon and like you're getting keys and bombs and stuff and smacking enemies with a frying pan. But then it expands a little bit. It's a very long game. I think people were saying it took them like 35 hours to complete, 40 hours to complete. I'm only on chapter two, so I'm not super far into it yet, but I'm already like five hours in probably on chapter two. It opens up because you play as this dude named John, who's like a silent

protagonist who is the kind of protector of this girl, this little girl named Sam. And at first, you can only control John in combat and puzzles and dungeons and stuff. But then Sam becomes controllable. And it turns out she has special powers. And then you can switch between the two characters to solve puzzles. And there's some really cool stuff that they do. I just did this dungeon segment where like you're controlling both characters at once as they walk through this like parallel structure.

Sort of like in Final Fantasy 6 where you have the dungeons of two parties and one is to open up another switch for another party. It's sort of like that, except a little bit more elaborate. But anyway, this game rules. It's like, it's so charming and quirky and interesting. The game is set in this kind of weird, kind of post-apocalyptic world where like everybody's living in poverty and trash and like there's in this town that is ruled by this kind of draconian demagogic, demagogic, demagogic mayor.

who is just a total jerk and runs this town. He has the biggest house and he runs the town of the Iron Fiss and everyone else is just suffering and has to give him taxes. And man, I don't know. There's just a lot to unpack here. And I don't feel, I feel like I've only gotten a fraction of it. Because like you're at the end of chapter one, you're like sent, you're banished from this initial city. And then you wind up in this other city. And like, I have no sense of like how big the scale of the world is going to be and where it's going to take me.

But they all talk about, like, going to the world above where the skies are blue and the forest are green and stuff like that. And other people are like, no, there's nothing in the world above. It's just a fable. And, like, you'll die if you go up there. This is the only same place. One of those. So there's just a lot, a lot in there.

And then, on top of everything else, they have an entire, like, playable 8-bit JRP that the characters all play. And so you can, like, jump on a computer and also play. This is why Jason likes the game. Okay. Instead of Gwent, there's FF6. Yeah, I haven't even. I haven't even done that part yet.

So I don't even know what that's like. I feel like there's just a ton of stuff in this game. There's like a cooking system. There's a ton of stuff in this game. This sounds incredible. So you're playing this on Switch? Playing this on Switch. Yes.

Runs great on my Switch. But it's on. I'm assuming consoles and PC and stuff. Yeah. It feels very much like these people wanted to make this like massive awesome JRP, but then they realized that JRPcombin is kind of boring. So they were just like, let's take Zelda's action and dungeons and mix them with like everything else that you love.

from a JRP. It's pretty, it's pretty good so far, guys. I'll update you, I'm going to play a lot more, and I really want to play it, like, dive into it more, so I'll probably talk about it again

once I've, like, chucked a few more hours at it, but I'm really enjoying it so far. It's called Eastward. You made me want to play it. All right, well, I'm also talking about a game. Look at that.

Look at us. Talking about video games. And one more thing. Video games. Cool. I played a game, so I was traveling the last week and a half and only had my Switch,

and I was playing a lot of Ace Attorney, which is great, but I wanted to play something new as well. And I played a really cool game. They sent a couple codes to this game. I guess to you, Jason, you gave me one. And it was totally not on my radar. And you're like, hey, do you want to code for this game?

They say the music is cool. And I was like, okay, sure. And I downloaded it and played it. And it's really, really cool. So this game is called Golf Club Wasteland. It's on Switch and PC, and I think consoles, too. It's developed by, actually, this is funny. It's developed by Demagogue games.

That's the secret word of this week's show. Every time we say demagog, you have to drink. If you text that into the show, you get $100. I think it would be demagogic. I think the first one is hard, no matter what. Demagogic. Is it a word? Demagogic?

It's definitely a word. It is. Demogogic, I think. So Demog games made it. It was completely off my radar, and I played it. And it's really cool. It's really unlike, you know, anything else that I'd played. It's its own kind of thing.

It is a 2D golf game. that is more about atmosphere and story than it is about the golf, which is, I understand, sounds a little bit weird. So the premise for this is the Earth has become just trash bin in the future. Like it has been trashed and used up and has no atmosphere and is not habitable. And all the rich people and all the, like, you know, everyone who could move to Mars to this colony where they could go and like be safe and be rich in their. safe colonies. So there's definitely a lot of social commentary built in there. It feels very

of the moment. And then the game is you're playing as this guy. You control, he's like in a space suit. And he's kind of just like playing golf by himself and going through these golf courses that they've built on the earth because now the earth is good for nothing, but kind of a place for rich people to go screw around. And parts of the earth have just been converted into these really elaborate golf courses. So it's 2D and it's really beautiful looking, but you'll be you know, on like a ruined kind of highway where the highway superstructure has collapsed and in the background you'll just see some signs

that sort of reflect the times of the fall of Earth and you're just hitting your golf ball through it. But what's really cool about the game, well, there's two things. One is the whole time you're playing, your character doesn't really speak. He'll like kind of grumble if he misses a shot or something. So he is a person, but he doesn't talk.

But there's this radio that plays and it's like, what's it called? It's like Radio Earth nostalgia. It's a bunch of songs. Some of them, I think, are original. I don't know what bands, what mix of bands or what they got, but it's this amazing series of songs and stories and people, like things that were recorded during the Fall of Earth.

So it's like a nostalgia oldies station that's playing old stuff from obviously the future, according to the three of us, but the past in this game. And so it's kind of telling the story of the Fall of Earth through music. And the music is really good so far. It's just like cool songs and beautiful lyrics. and melodies, these synths, and then it'll be like a spoken word thing, a person telling this story.

And there's this framing that I don't know. I haven't played that much of the game. I don't, it doesn't seem like it's super long, but I haven't finished it. There's also, like, the whole story is being told by someone who isn't the guy playing golf and is, like, observing him as he plays. And you start to get the sense through, it's like just one sentence from that story, appears on screen in between each hole. And it's like, I saw him playing by himself.

I didn't know what to make of him. And then you just play a hole. And then you start to get the sense that you're actually seeing this story as it's being recounted by someone else, which is also really clever. Interesting. It's really cool. I mean, I started playing it just being like, well, we'll see what this is.

And was just super drawn in by the aesthetics. It's so sure-footed from the very start. I was like, oh, this is like made by people who had a really strong idea of what they wanted to make. So I'm definitely going to play the rest of it. Like I said, it doesn't seem like it's super long. I'm very curious to see where it goes. but it's really just kind of a vibe game. There's no scoring.

I think you can play this scoring, but there's no scoring in the golf. So it's just kind of like try to get, it's like fun to play golf and try to get the ball in the hole. But it's not like stressful or frustrating, really. You're just kind of listening to the music and viving. So I really dig it. It's called Golf Club Wasteland. I recommend it. It's great on Switch.

It was like a good portable game. Sounds like a rip-off of Mario Golf to me. Yeah, it really does. It sounds almost identical, except you can't play as Bowser, so I'm not really interested in it. You can't put Bowser in a suit. Thanks anyway, though. Yeah. There's something to be said about interesting two deep golf games. Like, just there's that golf, Metroidvania and Super Stickman Golf in this game.

Like, golf seems to, of all the sports, seems to get the most creative sort of alt versions. There's golf story. There's like, what was that golf game that was like on phones a while back that was like really strange and just the color of the background slowly changed over time? What was that called? Oh, that is that, I don't know. Jason knows what I'm talking about. I didn't invent this. Everybody's golf.

There's just been a lot of good golf games. We should do an episode on golf games sometimes. What the Golf, I think is what I'm thinking of. Oh, What the Golf? Yes. No, that's not it. There's so many weird golf games. Bing.

Kirk here from the future, the game that Maddie is trying to think of, which we circled back to and finally remembered is called Desert Golfing. It was kind of a hot thing for a minute there, just a little while back. So yeah, that's the other interesting already golf game. All right, back to the show. Bing. This could be interesting to talk about in the future. For now, though, golf club waste lane is good.

That's one more thing. We're done with our episode. We recorded an episode of Triple Click. That was a lot of fun. And yeah, if anyone wants to hear us talk about Half-Life, too, that'll be coming up. So become a member. Very excited. And support us making this show.

All right, cool. I will see the two of you next week. See ya. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration.

You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at Maximumfund.org slash join. Find us on Twitter at Triple ClickPod. Send email the triple click at Maximumfund.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Comedy and Culture.

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