Triple Click - We're Still Obsessed With Elden Ring's DLC

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

It's time to revisit Elden Ring... again. Kirk, Maddy, and Jason are still obsessed with Shadow of the Erdtree (or should we say Scadu of the Erdtree?) and its sprawling new regions and dungeons. They talk about why they're captivated, what makes its level design so great, and those pesky quests that will lock you out if you breathe on them wrong.One More Thing:Kirk: 1000xResist (Switch and PC)Maddy: Master Chef JuniorJason: Real Americans [Rachel Khong]LINKS:Preorder Jason’s Book! https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/jason-schreier/play-nice/9781538725429/Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Today we're talking about Eldon Ring Shadow of the Colossus. Wait a minute, that's not right. Today we're talking about Eldon Ring Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Welcome to Tripak where we bring the games to you. I'm just kidding. We are, of course, today talking about the new Eldon Ring DLC, which is called Shadow of the Something. I'm Jason Shrier.

I'm Kirk Hamilton. And I'm Maddie Myers. Hello. Hello. Hey. Welcome back. Hello. Hello, hello.

I hope you guys are having an excellent summer. Honestly, I am. Just playing more Eldon Ring. The real thick of it. I mean, Eldon Ring is a good way to spend the summer. And you know what else is a good way to spend the summer? It's listening to Triple Click. So thank you out there for helping us make this show possible.

Because, of course, we cannot do it without you. Literally, we cannot do it without the listeners who subscribe, become maximum fun members and make this show possible because we don't have ads. We don't get money except from all of you fine folks. So if you go to maxisemfund.org slash join, you can become a member. You can help us make this show and also get access to our monthly bonus episodes, including a huge backlog. And when we just aired about the double-fine documentary psychodicy, that was a good one. So good.

And more every single month. The app was good, but mostly the documentary was good. Yeah, well, the bonus episode is pretty good too. And every month we put out a new one And you should go join So you can get access to all that cool stuff All right, on with the show No, not on with the show

One other thing One other piece of housekeeping Before we go on with the show Is that we will be playing this month Resident Evil too Because Kirk Hamilton won the tiebreaker To our predictions bet Last year

Yeah, we need to clarify He won, but there's a contingency on it, which is that he won the tiebreaker. Yes, much love for all of the e-sports awards at the game awards last year. And so, Kirk, do you want to tell us what we'll be doing and what the timing is? Yeah, so we're going to play through the Resident Evil to remake, which is exciting because it's great, and also because it's, I think, still pretty widely available on different subscription services. So people should be able to play it pretty easily. It's also on sale on Steam all the time.

It is. So we're going to play through, in total, we're going to. going to play the entire game, which means beating it as Claire, then beating it as Leon and getting the true ending because there are two protagonists. So for August 1st, for our episode on August 1st, we're going to play through the first time through, and we're just going to say we're all going to play through it as Claire the first time through. So we'll be Claire Redfield, and we'll play through to the end of Claire's story. So any of you out there who want to play along, that's what you want to play for August 1st, for you have a month to do that, which shouldn't be too hard.

Right on. Cool. Awesome. All right. On with the show. I think last week, which is really a couple of we recorded last week's episode a couple weeks early. And I think I had said, oh, I'm not sure if I'm going to finish Shadow of the Earth Tree. I don't know. It's spoiled and ring. Well, since then, my mind has been changed. by Kindly Mickelah. He's won you over? Yes, Kindley Mickelah changed my mind. When we played through that, that first segment of the game,

we were all pretty early. I think the three of us have gotten a lot further now, and the DLC really starts to shine, the more of it you get into, especially after you get past that first big area. So naturally, we're talking about more Eldon Ring today. And I wanted to talk specifically about level design, in Eldon Ring and especially in Shadow of the Ur-Tree and the way in which it works,

the way in which it doesn't work, what kind of makes level design interesting to us as players of games and not makers of games? But I think as people who play a lot of games, we can still take some appreciation, we can still kind of try to assess what makes a cool level and what doesn't. So I wanted to talk specifically about Shadow of the Ur-Tree. I'm going to open the floor up. Kirk, why don't you start? As you're playing, are there any points where you look around at this game's DLC at Eldon Rings DLC

and you say, hey, this level is really cool, here is the effect it has on me and here's why? Have you had that thought and if so, when? Yeah, I have that thought pretty regularly as I play. And it's something that we touched on in last week's episode, but I think I've

gotten a much stronger sense of, which is the verticality of this DLC. And I think that that plays to a real strength of how from design levels. And that's actually something that's true of a lot of levels that I really like, which is that they support you in some way. They show you what you're supposed to do. And they guide you along one way or another.

And sometimes that means they kind of show you what you can't yet do. You know, they show you a door and you don't have the right. Oh, you don't have the right. And so you have to go and open it from the other side or something. But in this DLC in particular, because it's so vertical, there are a lot of times where it's just, I'm looking down at somewhere that I want to get to and I don't know how to get there. Maddie, you talked last time about those ruins, the grassy ruins up high. I think a lot of people actually go there without a map because I kept finding notes on the ground saying no map. I had the map by the time I went up there.

How did you get it? I still don't know how to find how to get that. Would you still not have it? It's down low. It's really hard and weird to get. So I think it's only weird. I got there in a kind of roundabout way. Like I went through the shadow keep and like around the back, I think is how I wound up there.

Or I went underground. I went a different way. So all of this that we're saying right now actually underlines the broader point I was going to make before I toss it back to the two of you. And that is that the map in this DLC is not actually that helpful. Because it's so vertical, there are a lot of times where you're kind of just in the middle of a. you know, like hill or something. Like if you look at the map, it just doesn't really tell you anything because you're underground or your three layers below whatever the map is showing

since the map is a top-down view. And I think that that means that this DLC leans further into that specific type of level design where they show you one thing, just one view off of a cliff or one view down through a little hole that kind of entices you and helps you understand where you're supposed to be going. And I think they're very good at that. And I think a lot of my favorite levels in other video games are really good at that as well. Yeah, I think there are two ways of looking at level design in this.

One is the big picture, kind of the macro level design, which was what you're describing when you talk about these big sprawling areas and how they're connected on the map. And then the other is kind of on a micro level. And I've had many thoughts about the macro, and I've had many thoughts about the micro, and I think they're worth getting into a little bit. But on the macro, yeah, I think there are a bunch of different places where you can kind of like look down off a cliff and you see like something in the distance that is like clearly somewhere you'll be going. Maybe you'll see early in the game. I think you can see one of the torch monsters like way in the distance down below you, like hundreds of feet below you.

And you're kind of like, whoa, how am I going to get to that thing? What kind of secret elevator are we going to find a little transport me down there? What kind of coffin is going to is going to teleport me there? Maddie, what about you? Have you had any thoughts, either macro or micro about the level design as you're playing this game? Oh, yeah, constantly. I still have struggled a lot with the verticality. I mentioned this last week, and I still think it is a difficulty that can be fun and also just straight up, like, I don't know where I am in the game, but I've embraced this aspect of the TLC because I really like exploring in From Soft games. That's like the thing that I enjoy. about them, probably more than any other gameplay activity, is simply exploring and discovering where you are. And that is essentially what we're talking about here. And we talk about level design and what the game is subtly, or not so subtly, encouraging you to do or showing you that you

can't yet do. And we've already mentioned shadow keep, but it's hard not to just want to have the whole episode be about the shadow keep because it's such a fascinating place. And there's so many times where I've left it and been like, okay, like, it's not that I thought I saw everything. I just was like, you know what? I saw a lot of it. And I'm going to go explore something else. And then I would come back and be like, there's a whole other wing of this castle that I had no idea was there with like two elevators that go to completely other places that I didn't even know I could get to. Even if I could see them, I was just like, I don't know if I can go there. I have no idea. And then you end up there and you're like, oh, this is like a whole other.

of their world. There's more items here. There's a boss here. There's all kinds of stuff here. And I just, I don't play that many other games that do this, but I also have been thinking a lot about the fact, I'm sorry to mention Dark Souls 1, but I haven't been thinking a lot about the last time I played Dark Souls 1. I was in Sense Fortress. And Sense Fortress is a very similar sensation of realizing how big it is and how exciting and magical it feels and just like turning a corner and finding, like, in that game, it's the little campfires as opposed to sites of grace and just being like, oh my God, I didn't even expect this to be here, but thank God. Like, that sensation of like, not even, like, at a certain point you're not even looking anymore, you're just like,

I'm just out here exploring. And then you find something that you're like, oh, wow, I didn't know there was an elevator here. Like, it's, it's a pretty wacky way to design a level. I think that what makes the shadow keep so distinct and so cool is that it's kind of a nexus between a lot of different areas. So maybe it's a, it is both a micro dose of, from soft level design, in that it is just a legacy dungeon. It is a keep.

It's a castle that you climb gradually to the top of it. But as you go through it, you continually open doors from different sides of the castle, and those open out to whole new areas of the map that sometimes just go on forever and, like, you get really far away from the keep. And I've had happen a couple of times, like I went all the way around to where

there's like a cathedral with a quest giver, and you're kind of like way over in this other kind of eastern part of the map. But then if you go up, eventually you get to an elevator that you get onto and it goes up really high. And that really took me back to Dark Souls 1. That really took me back to when you first, I think it's from Undeadburg, you get on a lift that takes you up to Firelink Shrine. And it's this big moment in that game where you're like, oh, whoa, I'm going to unlock these shortcuts that take me up to where I'm going. And that's another thing I think is a really cool element of a good level is that the level can surprise you.

It's often like something happens that you didn't realize could happen, but then it's also a surprise that's sort of supported by the logic of the world. That's something like that animal well does top to bottom, right? The whole game is just being surprised by something you didn't realize could happen in the world or you didn't realize that you could do.

And then realizing what that means, like, oh, this thing, this element of the world is true that I didn't even realize was true. that changes how I think of it. And that happens all the time in FromSoft games, most directly with just like the path that you're finding through the world because you'll have these moments of like, oh, this connects to this. Oh, okay, I didn't even really think about it.

But I was right below where I was going or where I was trying to get. And like that connectivity with the shadow keep is what makes it feel so special. It's an amazing castle. It's an amazing, like, the specimen chamber and like all of the different ways that you move through that are so cool. and then you're like over there's like i mean there's a zelda dungeon within this dungeon like a zeldta water dungeon and there are all these cool little hidden surprises just within it as a castle but then also it's this nexus point out from which flow all these different discrete zones on the map so you're always coming

back to it so on a micro level what i think is cool and interesting about the shadow keep also on top of all that is that like it never feels overwhelming and i think it does that by really limiting the number of choices you can make at any given time. So you might know that you're in this sprawling keep that has five different exits that might lead you to a dozen different regions if you find all the secret passages and exits and ways out. But at the same time, when you're in just the specimen lab, you might only have a couple of different doors you can go through. And one of them might take you on this circuitous, like, winding journey. But still, you're only having to choose between those too. And that, I think, is a helpful way to prevent you as a player from feeling really overwhelmed

when you're getting through some of these dungeons. You also, it's very good at kind of giving you spatial awareness. I'm in this kind of final dungeon. I don't know if it's the last one, but certainly an end game dungeon now. And it really, it's a little overwhelming, but it kind of presents you with almost like opening shots in a movie. Like you, or like a, it gives you this establishing, shot where you can see kind of like your end goal or you can kind of see that there's above you. You're going. You're trying to go up because that's where the castle leads you. But to get there, you're going to have to go through some winding routes and jump over some pits and maybe climb up to some rooftops to circumnavigate around. There's one great area that I just did,

which is kind of a typical Souls from Soft thing where there's, you get to this tower and there's a staircase that goes up and around. It's kind of a typical spiral staircase. And so you run up it and you kind of, you're maybe you hit the sprint button. You're just kind of moving your way along. You're like, all right, take me the next thing. And then suddenly you get to a steep, like drop off and you fall off because the stairs are cut off. There's like a big broken piece of the stairs. And then so you make your way back around. And you realize that because this is a from game and they're brilliant and level design and they're not going to stick you with a random dead end and say, ha, ha, ha, screw you. You realize that actually you're supposed to just make a quick left before you get to the end to

try to get around on the rooftops, like, that go that kind of circle the perimeter of the tower. And then you'll make your way back up to the other part of the stairs that you weren't able to reach before. So it's stuff like that that I think is really cool and really well done. Just as a player playing it, I appreciate all of the things. those little flourishes and touches. Yeah. You talk about the establishing shot. That's something that Zelda games do expressly, right?

You go into a dungeon and there's always a little cinematic that plays, or at least in the 3D dungeons, right? They show you these kind of rotating camera and it's like the title card comes up. Here we are. We're in the dungeon. And those shots always contain information. Oh, interesting. Okay, there's like a weird looking device up there.

I'm probably going to have to try to get up there. Oh, there's a lever up at that really high platform. It's kind of telling you where you're going to need to go. And From Games don't do that, but usually when you go into a space, they kind of show you that anyways. Like your view usually has, oh, there's a staircase, oh, I can see, you know, there's a huge platform up there or some kind of alter way up high away from me. And it at least gives you something to shoot for it. But then they tend to do what you're talking about, Jason, which is they subvert what you think you're supposed to do. And instead of going up the stairs, actually you like go down or whatever.

and into the depths of the building and you find an elevator that then takes you up and around. And the actual path that you take winds up being completely different than you thought. Yeah. Yeah. And then so the whole time, I mean, I want to get back to this idea of like choice. And I think in Eldon Ring, it's very easy to be overwhelmed because it's a open world game and there's so many different ways in which,

especially that opening area, I actually think that the opening area is a little bit of a, I don't know, I don't know if I agree with the choice to open up there as opposed to something that might have been a little stronger for them. But regardless, that opening area, you can be overwhelmed because there are a million different ways to go. Kirk, you were talking last time we spoke about how you felt a little bit unmoored until you reached that first legacy dungeon. And I think games that give you kind of infinite choices can be extremely paralyzing and overwhelming, especially a game like this. And especially at the beginning of a game like this. So I find it very helpful to get to a place like the Belorac Castle or the Shadow Keep where it's kind of,

you're a little bit more constrained in what you can do. And it also, it can be really helpful because if you're taking a notebook, as I kind of infamously recommended back when Eldon Ring first came out. But if you have a notebook or if you're taking notes for something, you can write down like, okay, I got to this area in the Shadow Keep. I made a right and then I wound up on this giant adventure that took me halfway across the world. But I didn't check what was left. So I'm going to note to myself at this site of grace, I want to go left and check that out,

as opposed to making notes yourself being like, oh, there are five different areas here. I didn't check. I have no idea how I'm going to do all that. I think it's a lot cleaner. Even if one of those kind of choices leads you in crazy directions and takes dozens of hours to get through, even just having that choice be limited, I think is really important. Yeah, that's really true. And it's funny because I feel like I'm playing it in the total opposite way by not taking notes at all. And that is something that I find a lot of joy in because then when I do return to something like the shadow keyboard, which I still am like, I probably haven't discovered everything, even though I think I have, but I probably haven't.

I then am pleasantly surprised to remember, like, oh, right, I never did go left here. I went right. And then I did all that other stuff. And I, like, took the elevator or ended up in that huge other beautiful field with all the flowers or whatever it may be. And I didn't go to this other direction. And that sensation, I mean, I'm such a cliche.

It reminds me of Metroid games. It's like I'm going back to a place that you were before. and then being like, wait a second, I actually have access to this other thing. And I didn't realize that was there before. But it turns out I can go that way. And then also when you get there, it's way bigger than you thought or there's all these other new enemy types or whatever it may be or just a whole other area that you had no idea existed. And that sense of surprise and delight, I don't know.

It's the best. It's so great. I will say, though, since we've been talking a lot of praise, I also think that something that I've had to force myself to remember again. is that anytime I do feel stuck, I'm usually just missing something that turns out to be obvious later. Like there was a moment for me in the specimen. There's like a million levels that you're going up. And there's like this one key moment where you need to pull a lever.

I don't know if this happens to YouTube. But sometimes I just literally don't see those levers. I don't know why. But just I'll be like walking around a room and I'll just be like, there's nothing here. This is an empty room. If only you had Samis's visor to show you highlighted objects. And like I specifically like those are the few times when I have used a guide where I'm like, I know that there is something in this specific place.

I've defeated all the enemies. I don't know what I'm supposed to do next. And in my Maddie Myers' case, it is a lever that I did not see because it was just a little weird tiny stick that was like in a corner or something. And I'm like, oh, okay, that did everything. That did everything I needed it to do. This happened to me too. There's clearly this mountain and there's a dragon.

on it because like I'm finding all of these narrative hints about this dragon on this mountain and I really want to get to the mountain and I can see it from every vista. I'm trying to get figure out how to get to it. There is like a dungeon that leads to it. I had done the entire dungeon and beaten the boss and then you beat the boss and there's a warp back to the door, you know, the little glowing things that appear when you beat the boss. Yeah, you're not supposed to take that. And I didn't realize that right next of that there's a door that you're supposed to open that

takes you out to this whole new area and it's the only way to get there. So I would just would not have gone back there to, I probably would have eventually, but it would have taken me a long time to go try that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's because it's like, I think they actually just shouldn't have put that warp thing there and just left the door. And then you would have opened the door and like found this huge area that I've now found. So anyways, there are definitely, yeah, there are things like that.

And I don't know, like that's actually a good example of some of the challenges of level design and some of the tensions that can arise where you give players two choices. Like right there, I had two choices without realizing it. I had the door and I had the war point. And because I was so familiar with the war point, I took the war point because I was like, okay, I beat the dungeon, I go back. Like, they don't show you that. And usually that's what it means. Right, in the language of this game, they don't show you that unless you're done. But in this case, you're not done.

So it was like they broke their own rules and there was a door I was supposed to open. Not to like harp on that one example or whatever. They're just messing with you. No, well, okay, so that speaks to the other point of part of the choices. I think that for having a limited number of choices to work, they both have to be satisfying in some way. And if you get to an area and it's kind of like giving you that kind of false choice or a choice that makes you feel deceived because you're used to,

as you said, Kirk, the language of this game being that a war point to the return means that you're done there. But also there's another choice that maybe you don't even realize. I mean, that can make you feel like it's bad level design as a player. That can make you feel really deceived and annoyed and frustrated with the game and not the good kind of frustration, not the tension when a game is kind of like not playing by the rules

that it established with its own visual language. On the other hand, I think this game is really masterful creating choices that don't lead you down bad roots, don't lead you down false dead ends or like frustrating moments where you get to some area

and then it feels like there's nothing actually to do there. Almost always when you're making choices about which door to go in or which route to follow, they're both going to lead to interesting things. maybe not the most rewarding or challenging things, but always interesting in some way or another. Yeah, I think that dynamism in level design is a really interesting aspect of a level.

Like the way that a level can change both by the, like the way that the game can change the level outside of your control, and then the way that the player can change the level. And then the player changing the level can look like a few different things, right? In a Dark Souls game, it means we actually go and open a door and that lets us access somewhere new. And a lot of times that's all you do, especially in all their Souls games, but then one door can make such a huge difference in the way that you play and the way that you feel when you play because you're like, oh, well now I can get right back to the sight of grace. I don't have to feel so stressed out. Or like you kick a ladder down isn't infamous. Right, I'm just going to go screw around. I can die. It doesn't really matter. And then occasionally, actually, in shadow of the earth tree. Like there is a full on Zelda drain the water out of the dungeon moment. And that like fundamentally changes an entire wing of the earthy tree. And that. the dungeon so that now there are new areas that you can access, which isn't usually what Eldon Ring does. It was kind of refreshing to see that here because it doesn't usually happen. So it was a notable change. Yeah, totally. I actually really appreciate it, I think,

more because Zelda games have kind of gotten away from doing this type of dungeon design. And I wonder to if, I don't know if anyone at From Software would ever admit that Zelda's an influence, but I think it's pretty clear it is. Oh, absolutely. It's been an influence. since demon souls. We can say that, even if no one will tell us. And just having that sensation of, okay, I've gotten to know this entire room that I'm in, even if it's like a huge room or huge warehouse. It has a ton of enemies in it.

But I really know it like the back of my hand. And then I pull one lever and every single thing about it completely changes. But my previous knowledge of how that room worked is now also paying off in a different way that I didn't expect it to because I didn't know what the lever pulling thing would achieve necessarily. And in a from game, it might not even achieve what you would think it would do.

It might move some other thing. But it will still be like, all of your previous knowledge is now actually also helpful. Feels like such a Zelda brain, itch being scratched, that it's just, it's so pleasing to me.

And it does truly feel like them picking up a baton. It's not to say, I mean, I actually, we love Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, but like those games are doing something so different now than like the quote-unquote classic Zelda dungeon. But you're right, Shadow Keep really does feel like a classic Zelda dungeon. And that is another reason why I think it's just hitting the spot for me and being like, wow, this rules. And getting back to something Jason was saying a little while ago, what it does really well is when it unlocks new knowledge, when the world changes, it does it in a controlled way where, for example, when you drain the water out of a level, you now know that level because you do.

just went through it. And so like the change is something that you can really understand. As opposed to when the game is a little bit more open-ended and then maybe a little bit more overwhelming. And that's a little similar to how it feels at the beginning of Eldon Ring and then at the beginning of Shadow of the Earth Tree where you're like, what am I supposed to do? Yeah. It's kind of open. Where do I go? And then once you kind of start being like, okay, cool, there's this castle here, there's this castle here, there's a tomb here. All right, I've kind of like found these things that I can dig into. And I have, I've like limited the possibilities. in front of me in each of these areas, and that makes it easier to kind of dig in.

And then, of course, another pivotal part of the level design in these games and all of From Software's games is the notes that players leave behind, which are another kind of brilliant... Thank God for them. They're so great. I've gotten so many good notes in this. I've had notes that show me all the emotes I need to unlock things. I've had gestures. I've had notes that tell me like perfect sniper points. I've had notes like tell me about secrets. Man, the notes have in Shadow of the tree, the notes have been so good for me. I just like can't say enough about how great they've been. You're not worried that they're spoiling everything for you by telling you everything.

There are things I wouldn't figure out. No, no, it's totally fine. Because you, I feel like you and Russ Freshdick are both kind of like super sensitive about spoilers. And I wonder how the notes implicated. But regardless, but yes, I think that that's like something that the developers consider when they're making these games. And I think they know that when they're hiding an enemy that's,

going to jump out from your right that players are going to put a note there that says on the right. And I think that that, well, yeah, that's, I think the, the anticipation is like, um, adds to the experience and like seeing being surprised by something, being surprised by an ambush of an enemy can actually be kind of annoying, but then seeing a note from a player and knowing that you're about to be surprised by an enemy actually makes it really fun because then you know you can get the drop on them and it makes it there, it takes away the frustration, but still keeps a level of tension because you still have to be prepared and deal with that guy. So I think that when From is designing a lot of these encounters,

they're accounting for the fact that you will have guidance from other players as well, which I think is just a cool and unique to these games aspect of the design and the level design. Yeah, I absolutely think that's true. A Shadow of the Eritory in particular, there are so many points at which the notes are helpful. And I don't have a problem with them at all. I mean, I'm like a little sensitive about people telling me stuff that I haven't seen, but this is part of the game. Like, I would play it offline if I found that annoying, but I don't at all. Like, I think it's so useful.

And in particular, it's useful for the kind of tips that I'm happy to get from people, which are, you know, actually, there's a person that you really want to talk to who's super easy to miss. So go south before you go north. That was a tip someone just gave me. And I was like, oh, whoa, you know, I don't know if I need tips. They were like, well, just trust me. You want to see it. But then when I was playing the game, there were like 15 notes. in front of the North Path being like first friend, so try South or something.

Like they're all notes saying the same thing. And when there are a bunch of notes like that, I know that I can trust them. And I just go. And I am always happy that I go. You know, precious item ahead. And I go and find whatever it is that I'm looking for. Right. So yeah, I love the notes.

I think they're an integral part of the design and particularly the level design of this game. So this leads into one of the complaints that I have about this game. And to a lesser extent, I'll in the ring as a whole, but especially Shadow of the Earth Tree, which is that the quest design does not seem to have nearly the kind of care for the players or respect for the players as the level design does. Whereas in levels, I mean, I think in levels, they kind of, they respect that, like, they give you those establishing shots. They give you those views of your goals and tell you what you're supposed to be doing. Whereas in the quest, they're so, especially in Erd Tree, I think, they're so opaque and require you to do things in such limited timeframes and you are punished for exploring because if you go reach the Shadow Keep too early, it'll unlock, it'll lock out certain quests and prevent them from being completed and so on and so forth. I find that very frustrating and I have kind of given up on doing most of the quests because I don't want to just sit there following a walkthrough. So I know that I have to, I can't just use the poison thing one time.

I actually have to do it four times in order to properly activate this step in the quest and so on and so forth. I think that in Urtree, they've kind of, they've embraced their more frustrating opacity when it comes to quests and the way that they all play out, which I don't know. When I first started it and it was like all these Jews just kind of going on this pilgrimage with you. It's like, awesome, this is going to be really cool. It'll be very clear what these characters want and what they're trying to do and how you follow their quest. But no, it's the opposite. No. Clear what characters want in a from software game?

That's never going to happen. I do appreciate now. And I feel like when Elton Ring Roll launch, they didn't have the little icons that depicted where NPCs were. And then that was added part way through. So, yeah, when we played pre-launch, that was added at launch, I believe. Because when we played pre-launch, it didn't have it. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

And at least now, as of Erd Tree, we have those. And I remember thinking that when Urtree started. I was like, ah, these quests are going to be so much easier for me this time around because I've got to be able to keep track of all these NPCs using these little NPC markers. Nope, I never understand what any of them want. They all speak in beautiful poetic terms that sort of sidestep what their true motivations are. And I feel like I only ever understand what was going on after someone's already been killed or betrayed in some way. And then at that point, I like discovered the plot.

that's been foiled and like someone is mad at me. That's usually how the plot points go from me. Yeah, when you're invaded by one of them. And then I'm like, eventually you're going to kill everybody. Well, of course. I mean, I'm the tarnished. That's what I do.

I'm going to be a bad guy. I'm okay with the poetry and the esoteric nature. Of course. Yeah, me too. Me too, for what it's worth. I'm the esoteric nature of the quest. It's just what I'm not okay with is stuff getting locked out so easily that if you like walk in the wrong order, if you play the game past midnight or if you,

it's a full moon or whatever. that you'll unlock yourself out of seeing some of the stuff. That's the stuff that really annoys me. I think it wouldn't bother me if Eldon Ring was the kind of game that allowed for a little save scumming, but it doesn't. It's not that kind of game. That's not how your save operates. You can't go back if you messed up a quest. And that's fine.

I'm okay with the game being designed that way with intentionality, but then it means that if you actually get locked out of a quest that is pivotal to how the story plays out, it's a little sad. So, but yeah, that's why I've been relying on the notes and a little bit on guides because I really don't want to get locked out of any of the story stuff because I've been enjoying everything I've seen so far. So I'm trying to do it in the right order. Yeah, the notes have been helpful for some of that. Like the thing you're talking about the St. Trina poison. There was a note. I can't remember it was like poison and then poison. Yeah. And then there were like notes that were kind of indicating. I was like, okay, I think I know what I'm supposed to do. And I worked that out from notes, which is cool because I would not have figured that out on my hand. I don't think they can. The notes, no, but they were indicating that I was supposed to do it multiple times. And then I was like, okay, I'm just going to keep doing this until something happens. And then something happened.

And I was like, okay, cool. Like that. So I don't know, that time I kind of followed my intuition combined with a note. And it was a very cool moment. But that's kind of the exception. I think I don't know that I disagree with particularly you, Jason, your complaint about the story. Like, I can imagine a game, a version of this game where the story is a little more like, I don't know the way Yamir is where you're like just doing stuff for him and he like,

and it pretty makes sense. And he doesn't, as far as I can tell, get time gated out of stuff or get gated out by progress. Yeah. Yeah. So like that kind of thing. But to imagine a defense here to kind of steal man the way they're designing this game, I think there are quests like Amir that are meant to just be static and give you things to do and lead you to certain areas of the map.

And that they're kind of maybe trying to tell us how we're supposed to engage with the story. which is you're not going to get it all the first time. You kind of have to let it just pass you by. You're just kind of an ember floating along with all these other people, and it all just sort of moves along. And it's like not a huge deal if you miss some things, which is true. I mean, yeah, maybe you miss out on some item or like some couple lines of dialogue or something. But if you miss one or two people or they kind of go and they attack you later and you don't really know why,

I don't know, that happened to me the first time through Bloodborn. That kind of happens to me the first time through a lot of these games. And I never really mind. It actually winds up being something that I can then learn about later by watching YouTube videos. And then also, if I go and replay the game or play New Game Plus, it is something that I can kind of keep my eye out for and something rewarding about replaying the games. So I don't know. Yeah, that's true.

I mean, the fact that these quests are so minor comparatively. But still, I mean, like, so I just got to the boss of the Vulcan. anywhere you're talking about. And I was Googling it for some reason. I don't think I, I only tried it once, so I wasn't Googling a guide, but whatever. I was Googling it for some reason and saw that there was a quest attached to it that I had just never started in the first place, some 14-step quest that ended with this boss and I had never even found the beginnings of this quest. And that's a bit of a bummer when you get to this boss and you're like, cool, I have this boss right now. Oh, but I don't actually have the quest attached to it, so I don't really understand the kind of the

I don't know who this guy is. And I can't, yeah, and I can't summon, I can't summon the MPC. I guess the thing is, like, would you even understand it? Like, I've played out enough of these quests that by the end, I'm still kind of like, yeah, I don't know what the same thing. Well, even the Yamir quest, I thought that was badass. That playing through that whole thing was awesome. And that's very easy to understand, like, his motivations and what happened to him.

I love whenever there's an NPC where the dialogue option is ask about the nature of things or something like that. sometimes you just want to know about the nature of things. It's always a good side. And the St. Trina quest, I mean, it's a little bit out there, but I think I understand the basics of, like, McKella, and, like, St. Trina, and they're kind of the relationship there. And there is some stuff that I think you can kind of grasp

without having to watch the 30-minute video. I'm sure a lot of it will all piece together in my head later on when I watch the video. So I do think that, like, I feel like I missed out on something just by not finding that quest or unlucky, like. quest. Then again, I mean, the flip side of this is that this game is a masterpiece and I probably want to restart the whole, all of Eldon Ring and try to get all the quests again in the future. And this time, you'll know to look for that other quest and that's part of your experience. Exactly. Arguably is part of the design of quests in the game is that you won't discover them all

the first time. And the next time you'll be like, who was that boss? And who was that person that was talking about them? And can I track down that NPC and talk to them multiple times and figure out what their connection was. Because usually NPCs are related to either dungeons or bosses and there there's some type of story that connects to an environmental piece of the world. And just kind of knowing that about each

NPC helps because you're like, okay, this person will probably help me later and then I will inevitably have to kill them because this is a from software game. Because this is Eldon Ring and I kill everybody. Some of them become your allies. I think that's a good way to think about it. That there are mechanics in this game designed

around new game plus and around replaying. The game has scaffolding built up to allow it to be replayed multiple times. So it tracks that there are also narrative scaffolds in place to reinforce multiple playthroughs so you can see more and more things. And even if you do miss something kind of bigger like maybe that Dragon Quest or something,

you do pick up a few things your first time through and get to see a few of the storylines through. And so it kind of gives you some and it keeps some, it holds some back. And then you have a reason to kind of chase that the next time through. Actually, I've talked myself into it. I think it's fine.

I think it works fine. Yeah, I have too. I was also thinking if we want to change gears slightly. I feel like we can't talk about level design without talking a little bit about comedic level design because, I mean, it's a from software game, and there's so much of that. And that is another thing that I take a lot of joy in because I'm very much willing to laugh at myself. And there are also times where I just fully engage in it, where I'll, like,

a message that's like, trap ahead, wary of above, be careful, think carefully. And I'm just like, this fine. I'm just going to die. I'm just going to run in and see what happens. I just want to know what's going to happen. And then usually the result is very funny. You are the coyote chasing the roadrunner endlessly. I am.

I am sometimes. And then other times I'm like, okay, look carefully ahead or whatever the message says. And then I do look carefully ahead and I'm like, I don't know. I have no idea. But now I at least know that something. will happen. And then that is just like the setup for whatever the punchline will be. And then I'll be like, ah, I see now. That is, that was what that was supposed to be. That and also, if I'm like walking into a really dark place and I see like a shiny item, but it's like a little too far away, I'm like,

this isn't going to go well for me. I'm just going to go for the item. But I do know that it's not going to go well for me. I'm not sure why. And then the few times that it's fine, you're like, oh, that's interesting. This room is just empty except for an item. That's funny. It's trying to like... It's messing with you and it's actually good. Yeah, I think we talked about this someone. We just talked about From Games in general and like the comedy of the comedy of From games.

Because yeah, like they have a language that you learn and then they subvert your expectations in order to fuck with you. And I mean, there's also just the comedy of like a bloodstains. Bloodstains tend to be very funny. Yes. Especially the horse bloodstains where you just get to watch someone totally leap off of a cliff and die. One thing I've noticed in this DLC is there's, so the old jokes are still around, try finger, butholt, et cetera. But the new one that made me laugh the first time I saw it is, I want to go home and then edge. Yes, that is a new one.

Edging is definitely the new joke that people have found. And I feel like butthole is now a little bit passing. Well, when you get to the finger rings. There are a couple of areas in the DLC where there are so many fingers. Yeah, it would be like if I only had a hole. That's pretty good. Yes. Those are pretty funny, but I do think the edging thing is, is a brand new to me.

It feels like they actually found a new joke that we realized could have be innuendo, and somehow none of us ever thought of that before. To go back to the bloodstains, though, they are so hilarious. I recently saw a bloodstain that was like by a crevasse that I was like, I don't know if I can jump into this or not. Let me click on this bloodstain and see what happens. And I just watched the person jump, and then they were completely safe. and standing next to a bridge that they could have walked over and, like, stood by the bridge and then intentionally jumped off the cliff.

And I locked so hard. I was like, why did you do this? Like, what am I watching here? It's like watching like Johnny Knoxville or something where I'm just like, I don't know this person. I will never know them. I will never understand their mind. Like they jumped into a place that didn't look safe and then they stood there and they could have taken a bridge. And then they were like, you know what?

That went well. Maybe I'm going to keep trying it. It's like the mystery of other people. I feel like the bloodstains are often the mystery of other people. I found a room also that was there were bloodstains everywhere and there were no enemies. Yeah. I'm still not sure why. And there was a note and it was something like no enemies ahead and yet bloodstains or something.

I was like, yeah, what is that about? I think I still don't know why that is or how all those people died. Maybe, well. Yeah, maybe there's an enemy that I haven't unlocked. There's probably an invader that only spawns after a certain story event. Well, I was going to say you have to bring in Natasha Leone from Pokerface to come. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to decode what really happened here.

Right, to assert the truth from the bullshit. She'll see it all. All right. Well, on that note, we're going to go Edge for a bit and then we'll be back with one more thing. The following is a promo for Beef and Dairy Network podcast. Hello. Hello, please. You have to help me.

I was kidnapped and bundled into the back of a van. I was taken to the docks and beaten with chains and tied up inside a shipping container. And then I was forced to listen to episode after episode of a podcast called Beef and Dairy Network. And I absolutely loved every second of it. Please, you have to tell me where I can listen to more episodes. The Beef and Dairy Network podcast is a multi-award winning comedy podcast, and you can find it at maximum fun.org. wherever you get your podcasts.

Somewhere in an alternate universe, where Hollywood is smarter. And the Emmy nominees for Outstanding Comedy Series are JetPacular, Airport Marriott, Sprupple, Dear America, we've seen you naked, and Allah in the Family. In our stupid universe, you can't see any of these shows, but you can listen to them on Dead Pilot Society, the podcast that brings you hilarious comedy pilots that the networks and streamers bought, but never made. Journey to the alternate television universe of Dead Pilot Society on Maximum Fun.org. And we are back. Kirk Maddie, it's time for one more thing. Kirk, kick us off. All right, I'm going to kick us off first by saying something that I meant to say in the last segment

and didn't have a chance to say. And that is that it's not Skadu tree fragment. Oh, my God. It's pronounced shadow tree. Shadow tree. This is something that I'm sure a lot of people have learned, but it's the shadow tree. And this is like an old English pronunciation. Just like jail isn't gowl.

And apparently Hallig tree is basically holy tree. There are a few of these. Some folks in our discord were talking about this. It's wild. Shadu tree. But funny enough, it is actually called Skadu Keepe. Right. Right.

Yeah, it's actually scadju of your... And scadju the hedgehog, et cetera. Yeah. So anyways, I wanted to mention that in the last segment and didn't have a chance to. So anyone out there who has been pronouncing it wrong, you're welcome. And also, you're fine, because why would you know? Before you feel too stupid about it, know that we spent a whole episode saying it wrong. So, you know.

Why would you know that? Why would you know that? All right. So my one more thing is a game that I've been playing that is really, really good that I'm excited to tell people about. It is called 1000X resist. I suppose that's how you say it, or 1,000 times resist. But I'm going to say 1,000 times resist, all one word. This is a game that I'm playing on PC.

It's out on Switch and PC. It's designed by Sunset Visitor, an indie studio out of Vancouver, BC. And it is super, super good. So I almost hesitate to say too much about it because part of the joy of this game is understanding what's going on in the world. and sort of, you know, they throw you into the deep end. And so part of the joy of the first couple of chapters is just figuring out what's happening and how things work.

So I won't say too many particulars because I really do think that that is like part of the joy of the game. But to give people a little bit of a framework for what it is, this is a primarily narrative game. There's some puzzle solving. It's like a 3D, you know, third person game where you're walking around and talking to people and sort of sorting out what's going on.

It's dystopian and very sci-fi. It takes place in the future after the world has ended in a very mysterious and kind of, you know, a very far-reaching way that you don't totally understand at the beginning and then becomes clear over the course of the game. And it's also a game about parallel timelines. So you're not actually traveling through time, but your character who is called watcher is part of this conclave that is this like kind of living inside of this mall. that seems like a protected, enclosed environment, and outside the world has completely fallen apart. I guess due to a pandemic, I suppose, and some other things too. But the world is not safe, and you're within this little space. And everyone around you looks the same as you.

So there's kind of like a clone, you're a clone. And there's like the All Mother and everyone has these different roles. Like you start to figure it out pretty quickly. There's Watcher and there's Fixer and there's, you know, various different names. and each role is staffed by an identical-looking person who wears a different outfit. And it's all really confusing at first, and everyone is saying, like they're saying these catchphrases back and forth to one another, and it's all just like, what is going on? And then you go into this virtual reality experience. It's called, I think, communing, where you're like communing with All Mother, and you go back in time, and it starts to be a story about the woman you were all cloned from.

and the story of how the world ended and what led things to be the way that they are now. So who are you? Who do you come from? What does it mean that you're all different aspects of the same person? And it's amazingly good. I really like can't say enough about it. It feels like it has, you know,

elements of like a near automata or a Hideo Kajima game where it's like very complex. There's a lot of language. There's these really well-thought-out concepts that you're just like, oh, this is a whole world with all this technology and these things that I don't understand that I have to figure out. But also, it's really well written just on a human level. Like when you go back in time and you start to experience your character's life, she's in high school,

so she's a teenager, and it's basically her and her friend are the kind of two main characters. They're just people. And it winds up kind of having a lot of elements of just the immigrant experience and of the life of the children of Hong Kong protesters who moved to Canada and left Hong Kong behind and like what it means for your life to change and then to have kids in Canada and like to try to assimilate into Canadian culture and like and all of that is there. But it's not it's not the entirety of the story. Like also the sci-fi story and the like kind of high concept part is a big part of the story as well. So I think that it actually, at least for me right now,

I'm maybe halfway through the game. Those parts of the story are connecting with the high concept tech stuff in a way that I find actually more effective and more obviously readable than a Kojima game or a Yokotara game like Nirata. I'm finding it actually pretty legible, emotionally legible. And I think the writing is really good and the performances are good. And it's just like really narratively ambitious. This game got nominated for a ton of awards, like the Nuevo Award and all this stuff. Like people who are really following indie games and game design have known about it, I think,

for a little while. It was pretty new to me. Chris Plant actually, he like DM'd me. It was like, dude, you have to play this game. And I was like, okay, okay. And I played it and he was right on. It was a great recommendation. So thanks to him for that. So I am paying it forward and making this recommendation for anyone who likes that kind of thing, like really ambitious, well-written narrative games. 1,000X resist. Amazing game. Really like one of the biggest and best surprises that I've had in a little while. Cool. Awesome. It's really cool. It's really cool. Maddie, what's your one more thing? Sure. So mine is predictable.

It's Master Chef Jr. So I talked about Master Chef. That's not predictable. Predictable would be like, mine is Destiny 2. Mine is Dark Souls 1. Yeah, it could be Dark Souls 1 again someday. That might come back. But for now it's Master Chef Jr.

So I talked about Master Chef on the show and multiple people in my life were like, okay, but you have to watch Master Chef Jr. And it's true, folks. This show, it really pulls on the old heart. strings and it will also make you be like, I could never do what this eight-year-old is doing. I don't know how to cook. And I've maybe never known. And this child is creating like the most impressive possible dish that I've ever seen. And even competing on Master Chef Adult is like, triple cook volume too. It's, I mean, there's some really talented eight-year-olds out there. That's

all I'll say. And also the song New York Lonely Boy was written years after the inception of Master Chef Jr. And yet it may be a song that is about have the contestants on Master Chef Jr. Girls 5-O shout-out. But anyway, I just wanted to just say Master Chef Jr. is extremely adorable. However, after watching a couple seasons of it, Dina, humbly requested that we switch back to Master Chef because she needed Gordon Ramsey to be a little mean again. And it was getting weird.

And she was like, I can't, I need him to be cruel. I need to go back to Gordon being mad because this is just a little too touchy-feely for me. So it is a little too sweet, it is a little too sweet. Like just as every well-balanced dish needs some salt and some acid, and it is a lot of like sugary sweetness. So like I feel like a little Master Chef Jr. goes a long way. You can't just like inhale a lot of it the way that you can. For example, regular Master Chef, which we're still really, really enjoying. But I will say, I just want to quote one, I don't even remember which kids said this on Master Chef Jr.

But it stuck with me. One of the kids on it said, I'm here to win, but I'm also here to make friends. which is the complete opposite of what every reality TV show contestant says, which is, I'm not here to make friends, to the extent that that phrase is a meme, it's a cultural just saying that we all say is, I'm not here to make friends. And it was so sweet to me that this child just guilelessly said, I'm also here to make friends about Master Chef Jr., and I think that really says a lot about how the show works.

It's kind of like great British bake off the kids like help each other. It's like pulling each other up and supporting each other. Like, yes, they're competing, but you can tell all the kids are really there to make friends. And it's really cute. It's good. Maddie, if you want a dash more cynicism in your children's reality shows, you should go on YouTube and watch a show called Kid Nation. Oh, we know about kids. Yes.

You've talked about it on the show. We have. And I would like to watch it. I do think that would be an interesting palette clenzer to Master Shift Jr. It is also about not making friends. It's good. Some of the kids are sweet, but some of them are nasty. Yeah.

Yeah. And then like some of the cast members, or at least one of the cast members, did like a Reddit AMA many years later. It was very entertaining. Yeah, I bet. Nice. Yeah. Cool. My one more thing is a book that I just binged because it was really, really good.

It's called Real Americans by Rachel Kong. And it's a book about, it's kind of about three generations of a family. but it starts off with this woman named Lily, who is living in New York in 1999 or so, and she is broke, has a pretty bad job, and winds up meeting this guy who is incredibly rich, like, can just drop everything and take a private jet to Paris that night, rich. And they wind up having this relationship, and it leads to some interesting tensions because she's like this daughter of Chinese immigrants, and he is this sion of this massive, wealthy family that summers in the Hamptons,

and that sort of thing. And that the story kind of unfolds from there. There's a whole bunch of stuff about that. And then we meet 15 years or 16 years in the future. We meet a kid named Nick, who lives with his mother, Lily, and doesn't know anything about his dad. dad and sets off on a quest to figure out who his dad is and why he's not around anymore. And the saga unfolds from there, gets into some really interesting questions about fate and

destiny and the immigrant experience and whether our paths are kind of who chooses the paths that we're on and what that looks like. And I don't want to spoil all of the interesting revelations that happen, but it's really, really good and really entertaining and very fun to read as a study of relationships and also as just a story. It's a very, it's got a story that just keeps moving and is really interesting and has a lot of, a lot of fun moments. Very well written, very fun to read. I just really enjoyed it. So I highly recommend this book, Real Americans by Rachel Kong. I don't want to say anything else about it because I think it's just worth reading and discovering the plot revelations that unfold. But there is a secret, well, more than one secret.

secrets behind this family and the way that their path unfolds and the way that it's a lot of the story is about people keeping secrets from each other generational trauma generational secret keeping parents thinking they know what's best for their children and so on and so forth it's good stuff it's good stuff sounds great yeah have you read that book middle sex it sounds a little like I have not idea oh really Jeffrey Eugenides oh it's a sort of multi-generational story of I know it. Yeah, I know it. Yeah, it's a classic. Yeah, I'll have to read this. We should do another book club. I feel like I've been, we've all been reading a lot lately. I've definitely been reading a lot. And that was fun when we did tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, the Gabriel 7.

Yeah, we need another gamer book. Yeah, it doesn't even need to be a gamer book. If only there was a gamer book coming out in a few months, so we could all read and talk about. Well, we'll definitely talk about that book. That's true. But I'm at a novel. Yeah. Maybe another novel. We'll also talk about your book for sure. Yeah. All right. On that note, it is time for us to scatutri-on out of here. That was the correct pronunciation.

Good job. Yep, it was perfect. It's definitely what it means. See you most next week. See you next week. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music.

Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network, and if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximumfund.org

slash join. Find us on Twitter at triple clickpod. Send email the triple click at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network. Of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.