Triple Click - Which Games Do We Wish We Were Better At?

Episode Date: September 17, 2020

Maddy, Jason, and Kirk bring on special guest Ben Hanson (co-founder of MinnMax) to open up the listener mailbag and answer some BURNING QUESTIONS. What games does the crew wish they were better at? What are some timeless mechanics? And what are the most memorable button prompts in gaming?ONE MORE THINGKirk: SpiritfarerMaddy: Horizon Zero Dawn Jason: Super Mario 3D All-StarsLINKSSupport Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinMinnMax: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiUhKqsBH-Is2VeC2sykEfgWho Is John Frum: https://www.topic.com/who-is-john-frum  Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

Every chess master was once a beginner. A quote from Irving Chernev, who was probably also talking about StarCraft 2. Welcome to Triple Click, where we bring the games to you. We bring on special guest Ben Hansen from MinMax to help us answer your burning questions about which games we wish we played better, which old games still hold up, and so much more. I'm Maddie Myers. I'm Jason Shire. And I'm Kirk Hamilton.

And together we are Triple Click. That's what we combine to form. Our powers combine to form. Captain, triple click. More powerful than you can possibly imagine. We are triple click. Thank you for being a listener of Triple Click. And if you are a member of Maximum Fun, thank you as well.

Just like we usually do at the beginning of the show, a quick reminder that if you would like to support us making this show and to hear the beans cast that we have recorded and we'll record in the future, go to Maximumfund. org.org slash join to become a member. And for real, our thanks to everyone who's become a member. But enough of this preamble, we have a very. very special guest today. So Jason, why don't you tell us more about that? Yeah. So for the second time in our show's history, we are bringing on a guest, the one and only Ben Hanson, who is a former video producer for Game Informer, and the current co-founder of Min Max. Ben, hello, welcome to the show. Hello, hello, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. Yeah, you all were on the

MinMax show. We launched this podcast. So let's catch up. How have things been going? What have you guys been doing? playing video games mostly. Okay, same here. We're, yeah, I mean, we haven't been able to leave our apartments, so that's the thing. But actually, Ben, some of our listeners might not know MinMax. So before we even get into the episode, do you want to talk a little bit about what your show is and what you kind of bring to the table as a compliment to triple click? Yeah, sure.

Yeah, so like you mentioned, I was a video producer at Game Reformer for nine years, going back to 2010, and then last year left. to form MinMax with some other folks that had been let go of Game Informer. And so we have a channel and a podcast network and a Patreon that we say is about games, friends, and getting better. That is our simple summary. So the main show is the Minmax show. But I think, like, the growing thing that's kind of becoming the thing we're known for is our huge game club discussions that are called the deepest dive. Where we play through a game, we break it up into chunks.

And then we also, obviously, encourage the community to play along with us. and then just take hundreds and hundreds of comments from the community, boil it down to the best of the best, and then just have absurdly long, but I think genuinely really good and really fun conversations about games. So, like, my favorite is probably the Final Fantasy 7 remake Deepest Dive, where we talked about that game for 14 hours, and I still feel like I need to talk about it more. Amazing. Yeah, but we also did, you know, Krono Trigger, The Last of Us, Part 2. We just finished Halo 1, and then next week we're launching Super Mario 64 with Dan Reichert and,

Ana Diaz and then my friend Ronnie from middle school so it'll be a fun collection of folks. That's great. That's fantastic. What a fun idea. And people can find you guys at of course YouTube.com slash Minmax. Two ends. Is that correct? So close. Minmax show. It has to be on YouTube. You guys can

snag the Minmax just on its own or what? It's really strange. No, I really thought it would be, you know, wide open but it turns out there are a lot of people just sitting on Minmax with two ends on every social network, but Midmax show is the place to be. But yeah, it works. Well, Ben, thank you so much for being here.

Oh, also, I should say, fantastic interviewer. I've listened to a few of your one-on-one interviews, and they are excellent. So people should go check them out. You just did one with Sid Meyer. Yeah. So, Ben, we are going to take some listener questions today. Today we were doing a segment called Burning Questions, where we open up the listener mailbag and read a couple of listeners.

Just a reminder for everyone. We just read the questions. We don't answer them. Yeah, we don't answer them. We just read it. And then we leave. We just leave them. We just leave in the ether.

Great question. No, we will, of course. be answering them. Just reminder to reach us, to send us questions or whatever else, fan fiction, anything else you want. Yeah, where's the fanfic, folks? Why are you sending in your Mario Luigi fix? We're going to regret making

this joke. I'm just telling you. Triple click at maximum fun.org is how to reach us. All right, let's get on with it, shall we? Maddie, why don't you start us off with this first question from Andrew? Sure, Andrew writes, What games do you wish you were better at?

I ask because I recently played Warzone with some friends. I really like Infinity Ward's take on the Battle Royale genre, but it turns out I still suck at Twitchy Shooter games. After years of trying out Call of Duty, I resign myself to the fact that I'll likely never be good at these games. Ben, why don't you, as our other guest, Ben, why don't you go first? Oh, man, I have to claim to be bad at games first. It's basically everything. My first instinct was StarCraft 2, so I could have a rematch with Jason, because the last time we played, it did not go well. Yeah, that happens.

That happens when you play Jason. I've heard tell of Jason's crowds. This is why I will never play Jason. So I preserve the allure of my potential StarCraft ability. Stay away, Maddie, stay away. No, but that's a good answer. StarCraft is a good one to get better. Well, that's not the real answer.

That was the nostalgic one. So the real one is Puzzle Fighter, which is a game that I have ignored somehow my entire life. I don't know what was wrong with me. And then just this summer, I have like a main cabinet out at like, you know, our Lake Place, or Families Lake Place in Minnesota. And just this summer, I have gotten so into Puzzle Fighter. And part of it is that my girlfriend loves playing puzzle games. And so, like, just hitting every great competitive puzzle game available on, you know,

a main machine has been so much fun. And then Puzzle Fighter has just risen to the top where I think at this point it's my favorite arcade game of all time. Just huge swings back and forth. It's so much fun. but it's so frustrating because I just cannot win. I may be like 20% if I'm lucky for wins here. And do you all have that where you love a puzzle game but just you aren't seeing the patterns?

It's just not clicking for you. And it's so frustrating because it's clearly working for other people. And there are other games like Tetris I'm pretty good at, even like money puzzle exchanger, stuff like that I'm pretty solid at. But for some reason, Puzzle Fighter, my brain just can't see the patterns and it's driving me insane after an entire summer playing it all the time. Yeah, I have that sometimes with Tetris, I think, where I'm good at it, then I'll look at like Paul Tomeo, for example.

Yeah, that's who I was thinking of as well. We're all ex-Kataku people. He was at Kataku as well. And he's amazing at Tetris. And watching him play, I realized how fun that game probably is, if you've taken the time to master it, which I have not. There's like, I'm okay, but there's some missing, like, synapse connection that happens when you're really good.

So there's, like, an extra echelon that Paul has unlocked. I feel like I thought I was pretty. pretty good at Tetris after playing it so much as a kid. And then watching Paul play, I was like, oh, I've never been good at Tetris. I've never even been close to good at Tetris. And I was wrong all along. And it's people like Paul who played the Tetris Battle Royale game and was like instantly hitting number ones every single hour of the day on day one.

And the rest of us were like, oh, Tetris 99 is pretty hard. And Paul was like, it's honestly too easy and it's boring to me. And I was just like, damn, dude, I wish I could be that good at Tetris. I used to get similarly frustrated with Dr. Mario back in the day, Ben. I remember that game being frustrating because it seemed so simple, but I can never quite get the hang of, like, when I needed to line up what? And the timer, the timer is what really threw me. It's less of a timer and more that the speed of it coming down becomes this kind of, like, de facto timer.

So that was frustrating for me. Yeah. Yeah, what about everybody else? What are some games? Kirk, what are some games you wish you were better at? So I have been thinking about this question. And I have a lot of different possible answers, I guess. So first of all, a process question about this, about this, like, world where we can become better at a game.

Like, I'm a little curious. We got to get into the meta aspect. Yeah, I want to discuss the premise a little bit. Because if you could, if I could just be magically better at a game, that would mean that I sort of bypass the process of becoming good at the game. Oh, if that's the question I'm also changing my answer, because that's like a whole, other fantasy. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be, right? Like, there are a variety of different possible answers. I'm sort of thinking with some games... The premise of this question is that you've played something for years, but you still can't get better at it. So it's not like

you instantly do it. It's like something in your brain, the block is removed. Like, Ben's example was perfect because he's played a ton of puzzle fighter. Like, the premise is, yeah, like Andrew says he's played years of Call of Duty and just resign himself to the fact that he can't get good at it. So, yeah, I don't know. Like, because I guess it ties him with my answers, because one is really difficult platformers, like Spilunky 2 is coming out. I was never that great at Spilunky 1. So I was thinking that would be an easy answer, right? And this goes back to this premise question,

because I think for me the premise remains a little thorny. Because I want to be good at Spilunky so I can play Spilunky 2. I've even seen reviews describe it as designed for people who were good at the first game to kind of subvert their expectations. I'm sure that if you haven't played the first game, you'd still like the sequel. But, I mean, I played a lot of. Hollow Night and did really well at that game, and that game is extremely difficult. So it's not that I'm not good at difficult platformers. It's just that I haven't put in the hundreds of hours to get good at

Spalunky. And the thing is, if I could just be magically good at Spelunky, like if I could just bypass that and get there, that's just how you get good of that kind of game is you have to put in the amount of time. And that's the whole journey. Like the reason that it's fun to be good at Bloodborn is because you spend all those hours getting good at Bloodborn. So for games like that, I think I don't know that I would actually make that my answer because I would want to put in the time. However, I will say that fighting games, I just don't, I'm not fast enough anymore. I'm just too old and slow and my brain doesn't work well enough, but it would be pretty fun. If no, I guess that's true. Maddie, you would know, you would know. I don't believe in it. I don't, anybody could learn how to do it,

you know, but continue, continue. Continue. You could learn how to do it, but you can't necessarily, you have to have, well, I don't know, I'll get into this one I talk about it. To get really, really good, right, because it's similar to like you playing StarCraft or games. getting good at that kind of a game. So another answer could be Crusader Kings three because I played some Crusader Kings. It's very complicated. And it would be nice to just have an encyclopedic knowledge of how that game works so that I don't have to do all the learning that's required to get to where the game is fun. But then I also will see people say, know the fun is the failure and the learning. So in the end, my answer is going to be chess,

because I would love to just be amazing at chess. Because then I'd just be one of those really smart people who knows everything about chess. Because that's a game like Go and chess. Those two, I almost picked go, where like if you're super good at it, it's just this extremely rewarding intellectual exercise. So that's my answer, I guess. What would you do, though? You'd be out on the limb if you're really good at chess. I mean, you just set up at the park, because none of your friends are going to want to play with you at that point. Yeah, that's a good point. That's true. I think I would... You'd have to... You'd have to, you play someone, and you play really poorly, and then you're like, oh, you know what, like, next, let's try one more, come on, we'll double or

nothing. And like, you hustle people. You'd have to hustle people. Yeah, that's what you do. You put $10 he's on the first one and then you're like come on well i'll put in another 40 or something jason is just describing his starcraft hustle that he's about to try to pull on me after this call ends i wish i people would gamble on i think yeah i would i would do that or i would just play against i and try to be like the guy who beats the super smart supercomputer at chess one of those two things deep mind yeah yeah mattie what's your answer oh boy you know we've talked about starcraft so much and i think that might actually be my answer now that we've delineated exactly what this question needs I can train you at StarCraft.

Ooh, that would be a fun series of Twitch videos. Maybe we'll do that. That could be fun. Yeah, I would be happy to. Oh, that would be super fun. StarCraft boot camp. So part of why that's my answer is because I agree with your parameters, Kirk, that a lot of the kinds of games that I've historically wanted to be better at are just about

practice. And for me, in a lot of cases, I don't feel that I'm naturally good at games. Like, I got good at Street Fighter because I practiced it for hundreds of hours every day for a really long time. And I don't feel like I ever unlocked at with StarCraft because I feel like there's another echelon to it that's beyond practice and is similar to chess where it's not just pattern recognition

and knowing to do the right thing at the right time because you've figured out certain combos and you can recognize certain scenarios where you know what to do. StarCraft has this additional layer of planning and high concept strategy that I've just never been that great at. and I think I could probably get better at it,

but I don't, I feel like there's something missing. I remember hitting a plateau with chess as well as a child, where I like got pretty good at chess, and then I just could never get any better than that certain level. Both games have the macro and the micro, and you have to kind of figure out of. Let me ask, Jason, you might be able to answer this about StarCraft. This is just a theory, and you'll know.

But is that layer of knowledge that Mattie is talking about? Is that partly if you have seen so much StarCraft and watched so much StarCraft over the years that you understand like the meta, like the narrative almost of the competitive sport? Is that what it could be? No, in fact, so the way I got good at StarCraft is back in the day in like 2010 when StarCraft 2 was in beta and I was first jumping into it, I would watch a video series called Day 9 Daily and this guy named Day 9 who's like this big StarCraft commentator, used to do StarCraft. I think one of the first things of yours that I read was a profile of Day 9 that you wrote for Eurogame. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one of my first favorite stories. Yeah. And so, so, uh, he made these videos where he would just break down all the basics of, like, how to get good at StarCraft.

And that's how you learn. So it's not, it's not something that, like, if you just brute forest hours and hours of StarCraft, you would not get better unless you, like, learn some certain tactics. Like, you always have to be spending money. You have to do this. You have to do this. You have to do this. You have to learn build orders. All this basic stuff.

But once you learn that, then it's like a door has been unlocked for you. And then the hours of practice will. actually mean something because you'll have a grasp on like the macro level of things. In Sarkraft, what's interesting is that like you will win if you're like spending more money than your opponent. And like the data, the battle to battle mechanics don't matter as much as like the high level things and like remembering like I have to be spending money constantly. So that that's right. And building your troops up. I mean, it's a numbers game in a very literal sense. Yeah. Right. Well, spending money is building your trip. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So that's the, the idea of like going in,

I'm going to spend all my resources. I'm never going to have above X amount. But I digress a little bit, but this is kind of relevant because my game is super Smash Brothers. And that is a game that I played many, many hours of in college we used to play 64 Smash constantly all the time. As did I. And I was like, I was fine at it. I was decent. Like I can beat if my casual friends come over, I can kick their asses any time. But, but like I wasn't, I never made that leap. And I always wondered why that was. It just felt like hours and hours didn't really matter once you hit a certain point. And yeah, I always found that curious.

It feels like there is a certain block that you need to remove in that game as well. Ben, I'm curious, do you have any thoughts on that? I'm curious to hear Ben's thoughts as a fighting game master over here. Oh, please, I'm not fighting game master. But I wonder, like, is there the equivalent of a day nine for Smash?

Because I would love to watch that. You know, there's got to be a question. Some YouTuber out there. If you know it, please tweet at me. I would love to know who that is because I would love to take those courses. Yeah, yeah, that would be very cool. It's Maddie Myers' future career is a fighting game YouTuber.

Not for Smash. Other fighting games. For Street Fighter. Street Fighter YouTuber YouTuber tutorial maker. I feel like the way that I got better at that kind of thing was just playing a lot of different people at local events. Like I think that's the next stage is like getting beyond where you're just playing a fighting game at parties or like at the college dorm and just going to locals and playing in that environment. And then hearing from people in person feedback on what I would. was doing wrong.

Interesting. Then using that immediately to improve. You really can't beat that. I mean, it's why people talk about locals so much in the fighting game community, because you're getting that hands-on lesson constantly. And matches are short enough that you can actually quickly implement that, which I feel like is another reason why I could more easily see improvements there than in something like Starcraft, where I'm like, I feel like I did 600 things wrong.

And like, the next match is going to be completely different than this. So like, who freaking knows? But at least in fighting games, it's like you can change one. thing and see a big difference and I don't know that always worked better for my learning style. Do you think Twitch chat could fill that void of actually going to competitive events? Because it's so pleasant and effective and it always, the feedback is always so good. Very constructive Twitch feedback. You know, I assume you all of a nice community too. You're right, you're right. The triple click Twitch shot, of course. Yeah, even pretty wonderful.

Yeah, but it's a stream smash. I think people probably would have some decent pointers. Yeah, there'd be some Dick's thrown in there too, but, you know. Which are decent points in a way. A lot of, I mean, a lot of streamers get better by doing just that crowdsourcing, their tutorial, their lessons. Cool. Let's get to the next question. Kirk, you want to read this one? Sure.

This question comes from Paolo, who writes, first, I have to say, I love the new format and how you guys are constantly experimenting with it. That's all. He just wrote to say that he loves the new format. Wow, that's it. It was a shorty way. Damn right. Thanks, man. Okay, no.

He has a question as well. He writes, I recently played a little bit of black, the original Xbox, game and man, this game did not age well. I remember my mind being blown by how good that game felt mechanically at the time, but today it just feels clunky. So here's my question. What makes a timeless mechanic in a video game? Some mechanics like the Super Mario Jump still feel good to play, while others like shooting in black or even some design decisions such as game overs are super dated. Do you have any examples of mechanics that did or did not age well? And Ben, I'm going to throw it to you again because you're a guest. You get to answer first. Well, we all, you get a bias time.

we all think. Yeah. I love that he brings it up. It was like, black that age well, but it was just, was it in the series S video? I feel like I just saw

black footage somewhere and was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's somewhere like, finally you can play black again. Exactly. Black and three, come on down.

That's Microsoft's next-gen pitch is play black again. Oh, boy. Whoopsie. Yeah, originally I wanted to say, oh, just simplicity age as well. You know, I think of some of my favorite games

of all time, frequency and amplitude from harmonics on PS2 which is just tight. There's not much that's going to age poorly. other than delay input if we're playing on a new TV or something like that. But then I was thinking about something that's really satisfying, even from an older game.

And it's not the simplest thing, but, okay, we all remember Peter Jackson's King Kong, the official game of the movie, right? Of course. I mean, I played it like eight times. I just was playing it last week. Yeah, perfect. Can't wait for that to be on Xbox. Yeah.

Same. There is a really satisfying move that you do 1,000 times in that game where you just hold back a spear and then throw a spear at usually a centip. And for some reason, throwing a spear in that game is so satisfying. Maybe it's just because you're punishing a centipede. But it's not really the simplest thing. But something about just that tangible throwing a spear in that game is just perfect. And so, you know, not the tightest thing necessarily, but it's still, I think it's aged so well.

Why is King Kong throwing spears? Well, no, you play as Jack. Come on. Yeah, you're the guy, right? You're throwing spears at people. King Kong throws giant turds at people. if Sekiro has anything to go by anyways. This question is tough, right?

What makes a good, like something feel? Basically it's like what makes something feel good in a game. Yeah, right. Especially over time. Right. Like simplicity is, I think that's true. Like, even though there are some more complex things. Like Mario's jump is always held up as this example of this game from whatever so, so many years ago that still feels great to play.

And Mario's jump still basically feels the same as that jump in the first game. It's kind of a mix of the game. the game being responsive to you, not feeling slow, like, you know, running at a smooth frame rate and, like, having a quick response to your buttons. There's also the question of friction and, like, some sort of, like, it's not just totally smooth input. You press the button and something immediately happens. Sometimes there's that kind of rub, that tension between what you're doing and what's happening on the screen that actually, I think animation plays a really big role in this. Even though we think, oh, buttons and then actions on screen, the actions on screen have to be. depicted in some way. And whether it's like the physical animation of like the windup of

someone, I'm thinking of like Cratos's animations and God of War, any of the God of Wars all the way back to the original, two, just like the explosion that's sort of animated on screen when something blows up or when you hit something or grab something, I think that that is also an important part of a good mechanic. Can you think of a good animation? Something springs to mind for me at least and based on what you said. So this has been cited a ton of times, but I remember when the first Years of War came out, that cover system of like locking on to cover felt so satisfying to me. It's not the first example of a game doing that, but every game copied it for a few years after that because it just felt so good. And I think a lot of that was just the animation of Marcus

Phoenix's shouldering the cover, whatever it may be, and just satisfyingly popping on to it. I think some of that might have also been sound design, although it's been years since I played that game. But I do remember like playing other console shooters at that time and just feeling like that one really stuck out to it. to me as being satisfying and making it super clear when you were safe behind cover and when you weren't. And I mean, it's still good. I remember replaying that game and thinking it was still pretty darn satisfying. I haven't played it like in 2020, but I played it a few years ago and still thought that. Yeah, yeah, the way they kind of slam into the walls. I'm thinking of one is

the downward slash and hollow night is really good. The animation on that with the nail and it's this sort of push and they bounce off something. And it just, you know, the move feels. You know, the move, is great and the timing and the response is really good and it's an important move but it's something in that animation it's this sort of outward balance that moves up that's very very satisfying yeah there's a long history of downward like attacks in video games

going all the back to the NES yeah and Zelda Zelda too with links like downward sword slash oh yeah that kind of carry forward to smash too then was just the best move yeah yeah fantastic in smash it's funny I've been playing the Super Mario 3D All-Stars collection

which has Mario 64 and Sunshine in galaxy, so this is very relevant. And I found that actually the Super Mario 64 has not aged super well for a variety of reasons. I'll talk a little bit more about this later during one more thing, but I have found that like the jump, the jump is fine, but something about the camera just feels off a little bit because obviously it was the first game to ever use a 3D camera, so it was not perfectly mastered back then, like in 96. but some parts of it just are feeling a little off to me

and it's a very sharp contrast to Super Mario Galaxy where it feels like a game that could be released today. Like it's so smooth and everything feels fantastic and looks amazing. But yeah, I mean, I think that the part of what kind of needs to be there for like a mechanic to work great is that it's the early 3D, 3D era just they did not like they there were so many clunky things so many weird camera angles or weird ways that mechanics would not respond the way that you wanted them to because everybody was playing around in this face and I think that that's one of the reasons that so many like nes and

more so super nes games have aged a lot better and even if you just look at the mario trajectory like if you go back and play super mario brothers the original or mario two mario three mario world I think those jumps even feel better than like jumping in Mario 64 where something feels kind of like a little bit off something feels like he's a little too slippery he's a little bit too like imprecise in a way that isn't there in the older games I think that transition was just really rough on game developers yeah I agree with that two D to three three transition Jose says my question is this what are some of the most memorable moments you've had in a video game that were a direct result of how the input commands elevated your experience As much as everyone craps on Quantic Dream, some of my most

memorable moments of input in video games were in heavy rain. Like when my fingers were so contorted around the controller, mirroring my character's contorted body on screen as they hid, etc., etc. So Ben, why don't you go first? Once

again, what are some of the most memorable moments you've found in a video game that were a direct result of input commands? I feel bad going first, everybody. I feel like I'm going to take everybody's answers, but the answer is brothers a tale of two sons, right? That's a really good answer. Oh, God.

I haven't played that. Don't spoil it for me. Oh, my God. You got to play it, Jason. I guess you can be vague about this. It's on my list. I don't play it either. Maybe we should not play it.

It is something that you would, that Jason and Maddie should both see for themselves. I will not spoil anything, but it's basically input command the game. It's just excellent. And so, you know, the whole game is the setup to this incredible thing that happens. Yeah, I've heard that part. I think from you, Kirk.

you told me those. It's a wonderful game. This is his brother and Hale's two sons just so that everybody is. Does anything else come to mind that you can get into more in depth without spoiling then? I think of, you know, probably because we just talked about HILA 1 for a long time for the deepest dive on Mid-Mex, but I think of playing HALA 1 with the claw. You know, like when we had big land parties back in the day

and everybody had their different play style and some people would insist like, oh, you got to play with the claws, so you can shoot, aim, to jump, all at the same time, it was just a nightmare to hold the duke with the claw. destroy your wrists forever. Yeah. But it's a certain vibe to play Halo 1 that way, I think. That's so funny. I feel like you had to play certain games like that,

and it became the most frustrating thing. I mean, talk about mechanics that haven't aged well. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, what comes to mind, I'm going to give my answer because, well, so I have two answers. One is input command that did not work for me, and that is the last of us, too, when you had to smash the button to torture, what's her face?

And it was just like, I don't want to be doing this. and the game is just like, well, you have to do it, and you're like, well, this sucks. Think about it, though, Jason. Not having the effect that the game wanted it to have. But the thing I always think about is Middle Gear Solid, and there are a lot of examples of this in Metal Gear Solid, but the thing that comes to mine immediately is the microwave hallway in Middle Gear Solid for iconic, iconic moment where Snake is just crawling through

and just wrecking his body and soul and just good stuff, good stuff. I love video games, though, just for the idea that you can see the combination of words microwave hallway and we're like, oh, powerful stuff, powerful stuff. Yeah. It's not just the idea, but I'm totally with you, man. It's amazing. Yeah, well, to everyone out there who hasn't played Metal Gear Solid 4, it's essentially Snake has to get through this hallway that is like full of radio waves or whatever, microwave, nuke waves, whatever it was. And you're watching his health meter go down as you're like crawling through. And it's very agonizing.

And you're like hammering the X button, right? Like you have to kind of like, it gets harder and harder as you're just like, oh my God, go. And it's like your physical action is mirroring his struggle. And it's very justified and it feels very justified in the game because you've been watching snakes like body wear down as he gradually succumbs to the effects of this thing in his body. What is it? Like nanomachines or serum or something that is like making him age super fast. There's a vampire in that game. I don't know.

Yeah, there's a lot of nonsense. Kirk, what are your other answers? other than I mean that you're solid for. That's a good one. Heavy rain, actually, for all that game's flaws, the sequence where you have to cut your finger off in that game is pretty incredible. These are the things where, like, as much as people write off, Quantric Dream Games, there were always some moments like that,

and that is an incredible moment. Also, a few, one that doesn't work is the really famous one of the press X to pay your respects, but it kind of worked only because it's funny, and it became a meme. Yeah, that one circled back around and it's good. Having now, having now been playing, a Call of Duty game for our Beanscast. For the first time.

The best thing about this one, I believe, is from advanced warfare, and you press X to pay your respects, and then Kevin Spacey comes and talks to you for like five minutes, so it's like just not a game anyone wants to play anymore. And the last one I will say that is an extremely memorable one for me is in Titanfall 2, and that is press X to time travel. Yes. I know that some of you have not played Titanfall 2, while you have not played Titanfall 2, while you It's just going to have to. Press X of Time Travel is like one of the greatest prompts to ever come up on screen and then leads to an extremely cool mechanic that then plays out over the course of the level in just this really, really amazing way.

I don't know if you've played the Crash 4 demo yet, but there is a level and just like a new suit in Crash 4 where you're like phasing different boxes in and out of existence and you're like on a rail on this one level and jumping through boxes and then like hitting the button to warp different boxes in and out of existence and it feels very technical to inspired. It's very sweet. That's stuff in the demo they were showing. I was like, ooh, I hope that this. has that kind of stuff in it because it's so cool. So my answer is a little bit different. I was thinking about Super Metroid and how many times you walking forward. I'm always thinking about it anyway. But for this answer,

I was also thinking about Super Metroid and how walking forward often triggers certain events to happen in that game, like a thing skittering away out of sight, for example, which people usually cite this as just the good environmental design of that game. But I think it helps set the mood of that game as well, in that as you move around different events unfold,

that and just the pressure of a planet suddenly blowing up and you having to leave makes it feel like your inputs really matter, even though they actually don't. But as soon as the siren is going off and you have to jump out of an area, it just feels like everything is suddenly a thousand times more difficult than it actually is. But yeah, the inputs are technically the same during all of those sequences. That's good, that's good. Yeah, it's funny because so many games have tried to do this with QTEs, over the years, including the most recent Marvel's Avengers game. There are some okay QTs in that game.

When Hulk kicks the guy, I enjoyed the QTE. Some silly QTEs in that game. Yeah, it's mostly silly. But it's interesting because I feel like QTEs can be a good thing when they're earned and, like, feel memorable in some way and feel, like, have emotional weight as opposed to just like, uh-oh, like Resident Evil 4, this guy's taking out a gun. Better press Y before he shoots you in the face.

Press square to move the boulder for like a thousand years or whatever, yeah. classic resident evil buttons. One of the most memorable QTEs, and it's horrible, is from God of War III, when you punch out a guy's eyes by clicking in the thumbs sticks. Oh, what? She's, like, grabbing a guy's face, and then it's like, and you click the thumb-six, and he's like, p-hm, and it's just the worst thing. Yeah, it's not, it's not okay.

And I did it, I was like, I can't believe, this is just awful. I mean, you know, you know some designers just like, yeah, they were so excited about it. It's rules. It does not rule. It's like reminding me of the Dead Space 2 one where you have to put the needle into your character's own eye. And you like, all that motion is is just you lowering the thumbstick.

You just have to lower the thumbstick and it's like the worst thing you've ever experienced. Did I review that game? I think. I reviewed it for paste. And I like, I remember doing that and being like, how am I even doing this right now? I don't know. It was very upsetting.

Effective, though. Both undeniably effective. At least in prey when you stick something in your eye, it happens automatically, you know, to press a button to make it happen. Dead Space too was definitely doing it on purpose. It was like you must lower the needle into your own eye. You must be there for all of it.

This is a horror game. Enjoy the horror. That was what was happening. In voiceover throughout all of it. It was weird. It's a weird choice that they did that. Thanks God. Okay.

So on that note, it is time to press X to say goodbye to Ben Hansen. Ben, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks, man. People can, of course, find you guys. Why don't you do the plug? Tell us where people can find you.

Sure. I mean, just go and listen to the Minmax show podcast. and we'll kind of show you every path from there because we have a lot of different shows. Better Quest, refreshed, a lot of fun content there. But yeah, just check out the Minnack Show and you can find the rest from there, I'd imagine. So find it wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Cool. Any highlight episodes that people should get started on? Oh, my gosh. Besides the one we're on, obvious. Right, the one we're on. That has to be the most... That has to be it. I think that's the best starting spot.

Otherwise, yeah, this week we'll be covering the PlayStation Showcase, all that fun stuff. So it should be a great time. Awesome. Okay, cool. Thank you so much, Ben. We are going to take a quick break. And then the three of us will be back with one more thing.

Hi, my name is Graham Clark. And I'm one half of the podcast. Stop podcasting yourself. A show that we've recorded for many, many years. And at the moment, instead of being in person, we're recording remotely. And you wouldn't even notice. You don't even notice the lag. That's right, Graham.

And the great thing about this, go ahead. No, you go ahead. Okay, go ahead. And you can listen to us every week on maximum fun.org. Or wherever you get, your podcasts. Your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jared Hill, co-host of the brand new Maximum Fun podcast, Fan Time. And I'm Travel Anderson.

I'm the other more fabulous co-host. And the reason you really should be tuning in. I feel the nausea rising. To be fan tie is to be a big fan of something, but also have some challenging or anti-feelings toward it. Kind of like Kanye. We're all fans of Kanye. He's a musical genius, but like, you know.

He thinks slavery is a choice. Or like the real housewives of Atlanta. Like, I love the drama, but do I want to see black women fighting each other on screen? Ew, to the nah, to the nah, nah, nah, nah. We're tackling all of those complex and complicated conversations about the people, places, and things that we love. Even though they may not love us back. Fan time, maximum fun, podcast. E'all.

And we are back. Thank you to Ben once again. Kirk Maddie, it is time for one more thing. Maddie, why don't you go first? Sure. Because you are not talking about the thing you've been talking about for the past like 80 weeks. Wow, I was going to pretend that I was about to talk about Destiny 2 and you just ruined it. Just ruined the joke.

My apologies. It's true. I did beat the raid. It all went great, but it's fine. Congratulations. We don't need to. to talk about that. Everybody knows what a raid in Destiny 2 is like. And if they don't know, they can listen to the past two weeks of episodes from Triple Click. I'm going to talk about Horizon

Zero Dawn, which is a different video game than I've also been playing for the very first time. So this game is about a post-apocalyptic society of people who are plagued by a bunch of robot dinosaurs. And you play as the protagonist, Aloi, and she has... has a smartphone, basically. She finds a little device that makes it so that she can smartphone her way around the world and communicate with these robots and have protagonist superpowers essentially in this society that is not technologically advanced. And in playing this game, I've been thinking a lot about that as a design choice, as a narrative

choice. And it got me thinking about cargo cults. Do you two know what cargo cults are? I'm going to explain them if you don't. I know what cargo shorts are. Yeah, that's what I thought. I know what cargo ships are. Yes, also true.

So cargo cults are sort of like an urban legend. So I'll explain what the legend is and then I'll debunk them or I'll try to. I'll learn something new to it. Yeah, so I read a bunch about cargo cults in part because I've been playing this game, so I've been thinking about them a lot. I've got some recommended reading too. So cargo cults are this idea. that just during World War II and during various just world wars and wars around the country,

around the world where the United States has just put military bases in all kinds of places, there have been some islands in the South Pacific where people were used to seeing U.S. military forces around, just stationed there, bringing food, bringing radios, flying planes there, and just having their stuff there, having our stuff on these other islands. And there are some specific islands. there's one called Tanna that is sort of well known for having what we Westerners refer to as a cargo cult, which is the idea is that in the past, but recent past, only a few decades ago, these cults of people sprung up where they would be making wooden versions of planes

and wooden versions of these U.S. military objects and putting them in certain places and imagining that if they did this ritual correctly, that Americans would come back and bring them. them food again or other other objects associated with with western life and this is often cited by people as just this this cute story almost as like oh like they didn't understand this technology and so when it disappeared they tried to recreate this wooden version of it or this strange version of it and then wait for americans to come back and bring them the real thing but they didn't understand because they don't have phones and they don't have access to all this technology

etc., etc. Sounds a lot like Horizon Zero Done. It's very similar, and I think that this idea of cargo cults probably inspired this game. I don't know that for sure. But it seems likely because this game posits this idea of people who are worshipping this technology without fully understanding it and also having no way to understand it because no one in this game is still alive who can explain it to them. But there are all these audio logs of people from the far past, which is a version of our,

in real life, far future. and those recordings explain some things but not that much, and if you're a person living in this completely different society, you'd have no context to understand it. And I've found it really weird in playing the game that Aloy is so much smarter than everybody else. And like she finds this smartphone basically, and she's naturally very curious,

which I see is a very innately human quality. Like I find an object and I'm curious to learn more about it. And like, how does the tool work? and what's its deal. And, like, Aloy's very relatable and a great character for that reason because I'm like, well, of course you would want to know more about the world around her. But she's surrounded by these people who, for some reason, have no interest in learning more. And, like, all of them are completely close-minded, seemingly, or at least almost all of them.

You meet a few characters who aren't. But most of them are, like, I don't want to learn more about the technology around us. It's scary. It's mysterious. I don't want to know anything about it. And I think it's a misconception. about how humans work. I do think it's an interesting story and an interesting idea for a game, and it's fun that Aloi has this human superpower. But in reading about cargo cults, I was kind of like, do people really do this? Like, do people just look at this technology and not really investigate it?

And I think the reductive answer to that is no, the human brain doesn't quite work that way, and people usually do question those systems. And so I read this really cool, super long article called who is John from? John from is the name of a supposed U.S. military guy slash perhaps fictional person who supposedly went to this island of Tanna and brought these things. And this reporter, Brooke Jarvis, went there

and talked to a bunch of people who live there about what they think really happened and their perspective on it. And it's just, it's a cool article and it's a lot more complicated than you'd think because people are complicated and like the way that people have taken that story, and reacted to it is

weirder and more cool than you would think. It's not just, oh, we believe in this literal ritual. It's like, no, this character of John Fromm now represents something to us about self-actualizing and figuring out what we need to do to survive. And like, at this point,

it's about not necessarily rejecting Western influence, but like self-actualizing. And we as Westerners have just imposed this idea of that story onto people that like oh they're they're gonna love our technology like i don't know it's just really open up my mind and i interesting i like this game but i'm also like man this story though like i i would like it if it were telling a slightly different story but i haven't beaten it yet well so yeah one thing i will say um then i'll throw it to you kirk in a second but one thing i will say is that the uh notion of aloy as smarter than everyone else is

is kind of explained in the story. And I won't say more than that. But, like, there's a reason that she seems to be so much more cognizant of everything. I mean, some of that is introduced pretty early on. Like, she sort of seems to be connected to a person who lived in the past through genetics. And, like, that's a very chosen one, like, sci-fi story. Like, oh, she has... I'm not saying it's not.

Oh, yeah. I'm not saying it's not. But it's not. A genetic relation to a person in the past. So, therefore, she has this innate scientific curiosity that this scientist in the past had. It's a little more than that, but yeah. Well, there's also the fact that this happens fairly early on that I've noticed in my replay,

but it's kind of both, right? Like, she is genetically related to this person from the past, but also things unlock for her and open for her, and she has given access to things because of her genetic code, because the security systems are reading her genetic code. So there's this, like, there's in-law explanations for a lot of this stuff, even while the game is certainly exploring a lot of what you're talking about. And there's still this question. of these very frustrating, the Nora are very frustrating people in a lot of ways.

And it's like, really, though, like, even given all of the things that you will eventually learn, and I will be fascinated to hear what you think about this? If you finish it, maybe we should do a beans cast on this game, because it would be fun. We should do a beanscast about it. It would be really fun, yeah. But, yeah, there's still that question of, like, okay, but even given all of the things that you wind up learning are true about this world, you've just kind of stopped there? Or, like, you know, would you have kept going?

And it kind of raises a lot of these questions. I don't believe that, really. I do believe Aloy's motivation and I think she's well written for that reason because she's the character who's like come on let's keep questioning these things let's look into more of this like you're telling me this place is dangerous I'm going to go there and find out about it

but I'm like there should be some more characters here who are also doing those things maybe the sequel will do a little bit more of that oh I'm almost sure it will I just it's something that I think is very noticeable in playing the game is how uncurious the rest of the characters are Especially the Nora.

There are, some of the other cultures are more curious. I mean, yes and no. Like, you get to Meridian or whatever it's called and there's like the sun king and the way that people talk about religion there is still pretty odd.

Yeah, I guess I'm talking more about the crafters. I figure what they're called. But like their group is. And there are certain, the merchants, for example, will be more curious about the world around them

and we'll be like, oh, well, I'm collecting objects from such and such. And I want to know more about this culture. And I'm like, well, that's cool. Well, I think one,

one, to the game, One point in the game's defense is that a lot of these things have been crystallized over hundreds of years in the current world's ethos. So it's very possible. Like a lot of human tradition and culture comes from just like years and years of like, oh, that's how we did in the past. That's how we did in the past. So at a certain point, if like some member of the Nora, some founder of the Nora tribe, like stumbled upon one of the cauldrons or something was like, oh my God, like and got electrocuted. And they were like, this is cursed. We can never do this. We can

never look at this, we can never scrutinize this again. And then it just became part of the oral tradition. It is, I mean, you could see that sort of thing happening. It's just like, humans can kind of create that sort of like their own mythos is like, then you imagine like a human being in our world being granted like admin privileges for the creation of the world, which is essentially what happens in Horizon Zero done. And that would be nice. Telling us like, oh, actually all these things that you thought you understood, you did, you don't understand it. It would be very helpful, actually. If somebody could please find a cool smartphone buried in some rocks that was like a super cool smartphone.

Right, the god phone. Well, it would just be like, here is where human beings irrevocably fucked up the world and that is it. And like then that's it. And that explains everything where we're at now. I guess my last thought on it though is that a lot of our perception about how supposedly primitive societies operate is still through the lens of colonialism. and like how those societies have been affected by colonialism. And this game isn't actually about colonialism. It's about a very, very far away society in the far, far, far future.

And yet, it is still based on our current preconceptions about how these societies look. Because it's, I mean, I can't think of a nice way to say this, but it's almost like the people making the game couldn't imagine something different than that. And so they're basing it on the societies we're familiar with from our own history, because that's what we've got. But I'm kind of like, what would a society like this look like? I'm not sure if it would look like this. Well, but concepts of like of human beings getting together, especially in religion, human beings forsaking curiosity or like putting curiosity aside is not a clone.

We've done that before. Like that happens sometimes. Yeah, exactly. Well, I don't think that's necessarily a colonialist thing. Like that's just like an innate human thing is like to find. But the way that the people are depicted, there's, you can both look at the game and say the story here is explaining why things are. this way, and yet it is undeniable that the tribal cultures and the way people dress and the way that they act are being drawn from history in ways that, like, are definitely arguably unquestion.

No, that's not what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking entirely about the idea of, like, these humans who would not be curious about certain aspects of the world and not what they're going to do. I'm talking about what Maddie is talking about. But then when those two things overlap, though, I feel like that's where it becomes a problem. Right. The question of like Native American influences and like Native American kind of, you know,

that aspect of the colonialism, that's a whole other topic. But what I'm talking about, so, so quick, quick anecdote is that in Judaism there is this prayer called Brikak Kohaneem, and it's the prayer of the Kohen's, the Kohen's are like the spiritual leaders of Judaism, let's say. And in synagogue, like these people all put on their hoods, and everyone in the audience in the synagogue is supposed to turn away. And like the legend is that if you look at a Kohen during this prayer, you go blind. You're blinded. And it always struck me as so funny. and like as a kid I was like oh my god am I going to go blind if I actually turn around and look but it's like very much a thing where like they want you to suppress your curiosity and you can't

go look or else you'll turn blind and a lot of religion is that way you can't mix milk and meat or else you won't go to heaven you can't like you commit sins or else you in the afterlife you won't be able to do this thing so so I do think that is like a very innate part of humanity that has just been like it's it's natural that I think any any society would have some elements of that Yeah, I think that's true. And I think I'll probably have a better sense of what this game is trying to say about religion when I beat it. But for now, I'm like, I wish this game had a more nuanced take on it. Because so far, I'm about like 35 hours in, 40 hours in.

So I'm pretty far into the game. And I'm like, a lot of the game is making religious people look kind of naive. Okay, let's get through the rest of her one more things. mine, I'll keep mine super quick. I've been playing a bunch of Super Mario 3D All-Stars. Really interesting. I've only, I played a chunk of Mario 64, as I mentioned before, hasn't aged super well, in my opinion. I'm sure some people who feel nostalgic about it would disagree. But to me, Mario World, as an example, is each much better. Just played a dash of sunshine, can't even talk about it. But I played a lot of Mario Galaxy. And like I said before, Mario Galaxy feels like it could be released today as a Mario game. And it would still feel great. I mean, this game is awesome. Yeah, thank goodness. It could be released as a 2020 game and like you wouldn't know the difference.

It feels like very much like Odyssey in a lot of ways, except for those pesky gameovers, which are really obsolete and I'm glad that Odyssey did away with them. But there's a lot of just like really good bite-sized levels and it's very much like the game you play before bed when you're like, oh yeah, one more. I could do one more, one more, one more. And it's much better without those stupid motion controls. Although if you're playing in handle mode, you have to do. use the touchscreen for what you would use the Wii pointer for, the Wii Mote pointer for,

and that's kind of annoying, but you get used to it. And if, if any, like, I would recommend this game almost for Galaxy alone, because Galaxy is so good. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to play Galaxy. And then Sunshine in 64 is such a, or like a good bonus as a result. But yeah, I'll play more Sunshine and talk about it in the future, hopefully. But Galaxy, great game. I love it. Not, Galaxy 2 is even better, and that was not included in this for some reason, but Galaxy 1, still great. Kirk, what's your one more thing? My one more thing is a game called Spirit Fairer

that I've been hearing good things about for a while. Including from our listeners, a lot of whom recommended that we play this. Yes, and I have been playing it, and it is absolutely wonderful. It is a beautiful, fantastic game that I love. So, yeah, that's mainly my one more thing. Is that all you're going to say?

What is it? No, of course. I'll tell people what it is. So it is a very much a tend and befriend game. This game is about tending to, your crops and your little village on a boat and befriending lots of wonderful spirits who have become people who have become animals in the afterlife. You play as a young woman with a cat. Her name is Stella. The cat's name is daffodil. And you have taken over for the sort of boat, the harp.

What's his name, Cheron, I think is his name? The guy who takes you to the afterlife. You have taken over for him in the very beginning of the game. He passes on and he gives you the oars and is like, you are now the spirit fairer. So you take spirit. through the afterlife kind of to their final destination. So that's the game. You go around, that's the narrative anyways, as you go around and you find spirits, and then you take them onto your boat,

you have this big boat, and then carry them around, and you have to kind of meet their needs, and then eventually they go on to the afterlife. I've only played a few hours, and the game is actually pretty meaty. There's kind of a lot to it. You're constantly updating and upgrading and customizing your boat.

You build all of these structures on the boat and stack them on top of each other. It's all very pleasing. And it's sort of a life sim meets like sim management game where each of you, the spirits on your ship, they get hungry, they need different types of attention. Or they have favors. They need of you. You're collecting resources all over the place.

The Sims meets Animal Crossing, you might say. Yeah, but the thing that makes this game so good is it's beautiful looking, absolutely gorgeous. The art is incredible. It's so big-hearted and relaxing and just peaceful. and I'm like living in hellworld in Portland, Oregon right now where there's just smoke outside. I haven't been able to leave the house for a week. It's been a nightmare. Everybody here is like really suffering and it's super bad and I'm not going to, you know, whatever, bum our listeners out, but it really, really sucks. And playing this game has been really wonderful. It's been like kind of the only

video game that I wanted to play. I didn't, I just downloaded it and started playing it. And it's just totally beautiful. Like you, there's a dedicated input for hugging where you hug people and you have to hug all of them regularly to make them happy. And the animations are so beautiful in all the spirits of these big animals. So it's like a big deer. And they're actually all related to you. Like the deer is, I think, your sister, and there's this big frog, and he's your uncle. So they all know you and they talk about your life back when you were alive.

And then you just hug them, and it's these big hugs. And the whole game is just like really wonderful and just relaxing and beautiful looking. And I don't know, I gather it becomes incredible. I know I'm going to like cry a ton playing this game. totally like one of those games, but that it's going to be worth it. Everybody who's finished it lots of people were in my Twitter mentioned saving like, oh my God, like it's amazing to the end. I think it's pretty long. And it's just, it's a fantastic game. It's called Spirit Fair. It's on PC. It's also on consoles. It's on Switch. I bet it's great on Switch. I'm playing it on PC.

But I would probably play this game on Switch. And there's also co-op. And I haven't played this with Co-op. But you can play at the same time. One person controls the cat and one person controls Stella. And it's just, it's a wonderful game, and I can't recommend it enough. Yeah, I played a little bit, and it wasn't for me, but I'm very much glad. I'm glad that it is for you. Just not my type of game, I don't know. I might give it to my wife, because she might be more into it. Cool. Well, so yeah, on that note, that is the end of this week's episode. Kirk, I hope that by this time next week, the Portland is not on fire anymore. Yeah, that would be nice. I hope that is well. Fingers crossed, I guess. Fingers crossed, I guess.

Trust indeed. But yeah, Kirk, Maddie, see you guys next time. See you both next time. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom DJ. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network.

And if you like our show, we hope you'll head over to maximum fun.org slash join and consider becoming a member. Doing so helps support us and gets you access to an exclusive Triple Click episode each month. Find us online at triple clickpodcast.com on Twitter at triple click pod and send email to triple click at maximum fun.org. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximumfund.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned, audience supported.