Triple Click - Xbox Mess, Helldivers Debacle, And Hades 2

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Kirk is out this week, so Jason and Maddy convene to talk about a grab bag full of topics including the Xbox mess, the Helldivers 2 debacle, and two games they're really enjoying: Hades 2 and Animal Well.One More Thing:Maddy: Master ChefJason: Demon Copperhead (Barbara Kingsolver)LINKS:Triple Click LIVE in LA! Saturday, June 8, 6:30PM at the Teragram Ballroom: https://teragramballroom.com/tm-event/triple-click-podcast/Preorder Jason’s Book! https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/jason-schreier/play-nice/9781538725429/Support Triple Click: http://maximumfun.org/joinBuy Triple Click Merch: https://maxfunstore.com/search?q=triple+click&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastJoin the Triple Click Discord: http://discord.gg/tripleclickpodTriple Click Ethics Policy: https://maximumfun.org/triple-click-ethics-policy/ Happy MaxFunDrive! Right now is the best time to start a membership to support your favorite shows. Learn more and join at https://maximumfun.org/jointripleclick 🚀  SUPPORT TRIPLE CLICK:Join Maximum Fun | Buy TC Merch💬 JOIN THE TRIPLE CLICK DISCORD🎮 Triple Click Ethics Policy📱 SOCIALS | @tripleclickpodInstagram | YouTube | TikTok | Twitch

We've decided that from now on you will need a PlayStation Network account to listen to episodes of Triple Click. And oh my God, the gamers are coming for us. Welcome to Triple Click and I'm just kidding. Please do not get mad at us gamers. Today we are talking about a lot of things from big news in the world of console makers to Hades to an animal wow. I'm Jason Shrier. And I'm Maddie Myers. Hello.

And Kirk Hamilton is not here. Unfortunately, he had a death in the family, and so he could not record this week. It's double-click. We'll be doing a double-click this week, a double play, just the two of us. This is the first time it's ever been just you and me, Jason. It is. It is the first time. It was back in the day on split screen. Kirk and I did a bunch of episodes with just the two of us when you were on parental leave.

So this is actually a unique super mega-rare episode with just you and me. It is. It's a rare Pokemon of an episode where it's just the two of us. It's a super shiny triple click. That's what it is. And hey, if you want to help us make it so we will keep recording episodes, even when it's just the two of us, then you should support our podcast by becoming a maximum fun member. Go to maximum fun.org slash join. Help us out, become a triple click supporter. And not only will you make this show possible, you will also get bonus. episodes. We put out one every single month. They're really cool. Lots of good stuff in there. We have a lot of, we just did one on the fallout show where we talked about that. That was a good one. That was a

fun. That was very fun one. We wound up getting into like all sorts of fallout topics. Yeah, talking about the games. It was fun. It was good. Yeah, it was really cool. And then this month, we are going to do an episode called triple cook where we talk about recipes and cooking. It's going to be good. Much anticipated episode of triple. cook. Can't wait. Yes, I can't wait for that. And one more, so go to maximum fun.org slash join. And also one more thing is that we are doing a live show in Los Angeles next month. The weekend of Summer Games Fest, we are going to be, it is Saturday, June 8th, 6.30 p.m. We are going to be at the tarragam ballroom in downtown L.A.

Buy a ticket. Come see the show. You'll get to meet us afterwards. We'll be hanging out. It'll be fun. In fact, we might even go to a nearby bar afterwards. And we'll be around hanging out. So you can buy tickets. Are in the show notes. That's right. All right. On with the show.

So all right. This week, since it's just the two of us, there's like a bunch of stuff we could talk about. So why not talk about all of it, right? Yeah, let's do it all. Let's just bounce around a little bit. Let's be overachievers. Let's do it all.

So we're going to talk about some recent news. We're going to talk about some games we're playing. We're going to talk about a game that I'm obsessed with called Animal Well. We'll talk about that a little bit later. I cannot wait to dive into that one. And I cannot wait. way for people to play it. Yeah. Hopefully we'll do a future episode that's just about animal well because I think we're all pretty obsessed with it. Yes. Oh man. For now. I'm excited to hear your

preview. Yeah. It's really good. A sneak peek of the animals. First, let's get into some news because there were two big news stories, both involving big console manufacturers over the past couple of days that I think it's worth doing at least a little bit talking about. First, let's talk about the Helldivers saga. Maddie, welcome. us through exactly what happened there and we can talk about it a little bit. Sure. So last Friday, Sony, which is the publisher of a game called Hell Divers 2 that we've talked about a bunch on this show, is created by an independent studio called Arrowhead Studios and they worked with Sony to publish the game. And so it's on PlayStation and it's on PC, which is where I personally have been

playing it on my Steam account. That's going to be relevant, folks, because a lot of other people like me are playing it on PC on their Steam account. And on Friday, Sony, somebody at Sony, I don't like to describe companies like they're a person, but Sony, the fixture, decreed that if you are playing Hell Divers 2 on PC, you need to link your PSN account to it. And this isn't just that it's like, oh, this is an administrative hoop that players need to jump through.

It actually makes it impossible for Hell Divers 2 to be played in hundreds of countries, because those countries don't have the PlayStation Network. And so basically what this decision did was turn off the game for tons and tons of people. And so there was just immediate outcry from Hell Divers 2 players, even players who had the ability to still play. It just really riled up the fan base in an interesting way. And so Hell Divers 2 players kind of started treating this situation like this was a major order within the game of Hell Divers.

They united as one as gamers are wanting. to do sometimes in terrifying ways. And they created this coordinated attack on the Steam reviews, because that's kind of one of the ways that you can make your voice heard as a gamer, capital G or lowercase G. So they started review bombing Hell Divers 2. They started review bombing the original Hell Divers 1. They were basically just hitting Sony as hard as they possibly could and expressing displeasure. And then they started requesting refunds. That was the next stage of attack. And so finally, after a weekend of sustained attacks from from helldivers on the ground in the in the battlefront against Sony, Sony reversed the decision. I believe that was on Sunday.

We wrote it up on Monday after just that wacky weekend at Polygon. We don't have a weekend editor. So we didn't get to the story until Monday 40. But that was just a wild thing to watch. like Sony reversing the decision after being bombarded in this way? I mean, it gives me a lot of thoughts. Like, first of all, just the coordinated attack of it all. I mean, how, and second of all, why did Sony do this in the first place? Why didn't they just take the W on hell divers? Like, yes, some people are playing it on PC, but it's still a win for PlayStation because the crossplay is so effective in the game. So I just, I don't understand why they even did this in the first place. Yeah, I mean, there were other, there are a couple other components here. One is

that Arrowhead, the studio behind it, even though their CEO was coming out and be like, oh, I disagree with this, blah, blah, blah, blah. He also admitted at one point that he knew this was coming six months ago, and they just never really made it clear to people. And the other part of this equation is that one of the reasons they were able to be so coordinated is because some of the CMs, the community managers from Arrowhead, encouraged people to go and see them review about. They were definitely laughing at it too and kind of playing it up in the official

Hell Divers Discord. They wanted Sony to feel pressure to reverse this decision. The Arrowhead staffers appeared to be on the side of the Hell Divers 2 players amidst this debacle. So something I was thinking about is, and I think one of the reasons that this became such a hot button issue, is that games like this, games like Hell Divers and Fortnite and a couple other service games have become a little bit more than just kind of a waste of time, like a way to spend a couple hours a night. and they've kind of become a, like a third life for people, like kind of the third space. A third place. That's what it's called. Yeah.

The third place where it's like you have your work, you have your school, or you have your work, you have your home or work slash school, home, and then this other place. Yeah, like a cafe that you hang out in is usually the example. And for a lot of people, Held Ever Sue is where they hang out with their friends. So it's not so much like, and my first reaction was to be like, oh, those pesky gamers, like riled up again. But I think you can have a lot more empathy for the people who were potentially locked out

to play this game. When you realize that for a lot of them, it might be the one place where they get to hang out with their friends in the same way Fortnite is for a lot of people. World of Warcraft is for a lot of people. It's kind of like, this is my social place. And for Sony to just take it away from me,

especially in the countries where like you can't actually start a PSN account, that's pretty messed up, I think. It is pretty messed up. And I mean, leaving aside, like, I mean, of course, it's a consumer rights issue, as we might say. Like, people paid for the game. They feel like they have a right to it. But, I mean, it's like I said before. It just feels like Sony was intentionally hobbling the game in a way that feels weirdly petty to me.

I don't know. I shouldn't be ascribing motivations to a company. But it's hard to understand why they would do this other than to attempt to get more people to have a PlayStation Network account, even if they didn't previously have one, or even if they didn't own. own a PlayStation in the first place, which what's the purpose of that, really? I mean, to be able to say that our PlayStation network numbers went up like 20% this quarter. Like that's the purpose. Which is absurd and silly and just it's so corporate. It's, I mean, this is one where I got to be on the side of the gamers. I mean, I hate to say it.

Hell divers too. This is kind of, this stuff blew my mind. According to Matt Piscuitllo works for NPD or whatever they're called now, Sarkana, I think it's the name of the firm now that MPD used to be called. He's a big analyst and he said that Hell Everest 2 is the seventh best selling Sony published game of all time. Not just like seventh best like on PlayStation 5. Seventh best Sony published game of all time in terms of dollar sales. Sony take the W like even if people are playing it on PC, just call it a win. I mean, I feel like Xbox did this with Pal World so effectively by just talking it up and being like, yeah, we're a space where indie games can thrive and come out of nowhere. Like, Pal World, a game with which we had nothing to do.

But we will say the word pal world. Like, that's fine. Just do that. Because the average person isn't going to be thinking to themselves like, oh, Pal world wasn't made by like Xbox game studios. Like, that's weird. No one cares. No one but us thinks about things like that. So PlayStation should have just take.

in the W. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and they did wind up reversing course. I think sometimes with big corporations, especially a Japanese corporation where maybe like their boardroom that is making this decision isn't quite as in touch with the players as like their U.S. English speaking side.

All the goodness knows United States base corporations make stupid mistakes all the time to do. But I'm saying that ramps it up. That like adds another factor. And I think with these big corporations, like sometimes it just takes like a big incident like this to make them. I was like, hey, like, but they made the right call in the end. The gamer pressure got to them. Yeah, the financial pressure.

From what I've seen, the financial pressure, from what I've seen, the Steam reviews are reversing. They have been reversed. Like, that was the new quote, unquote, major order that the Hell Divers were putting out on their subreddit was like, okay, go reverse your Steam review, protect democracy. Like the propaganda posters that they were creating were very funny. It was pretty funny to watch. It is pretty funny.

funny. And now they can get back to the true purpose, which is defeating the bugs. Yeah, defeating the bugs and the robots, the attacktops. One more big news event that we should talk about before we start getting into some games is that Xbox is also stepping into Rakes. Xbox this week on Tuesday announced that it is shutting down four studios under the Xenamax slash Bethesda label. The studios are Arcane Austin, which made Redfall prey, redfall and prey. Tango Gameworks, which made High Fi Rush. And then there's a studio called Alpha Dog that most people probably haven't heard of. They made a mobile game called Mighty Doom. And then there's a studio called Roundhouse that is kind of a support studio.

I was trying to do its own thing, but that didn't work out. Now that one is getting folded into Xenamax online studios. So overall, painting a picture of Xenamax getting reduced. This is about four years after Microsoft purchased them for about

six or seven billion dollars. Man, the Arcane Austin probably isn't too surprising to people given that Redfall was such a flop for them last year. But Tango GameWorks just made a game that was critically acclaimed nominated for awards, won a BAFTA a few weeks ago. So pretty surprising stuff. What did you make of all this? Yeah, I guess I shouldn't be shocked by it, but I still was. I mean, people were immediately citing the way. that the Microsoft acquisition affected Activision Blizzard, which we talked about on the show and how it resulted in a ton of layoffs and shutting down of that unannounced Blizzard project, the survival or whatever. Odyssey, yeah.

And I guess this is just more of the same on that score, but I was still really surprised by it. And especially because Hi-Fi Rush, I thought of that as a successful game. I don't know, I guess, all of the financial ins and outs of it. I'm not Phil Spencer. I don't know everything on the balance sheet. But to me and my just perception as a person playing games,

I was like, yeah, didn't that do really well and was wildly successful and well liked? I don't understand that just logically. But then also, I mean, I agree with you. Redfall noted failure. Even Phil Spencer came out and said that was a disappointment. Like he publicly stated that. And that is never a good thing when somebody is coming out and publicly saying something like that about a company that has been acquired. Yeah.

And it is so but I still was surprised by it if only because Prey is still like a really beloved series. I saw a lot of people kind of being like pouring one out for Prey today really like those games. I guess we're never going to get another one of those. So didn't sell well. Yeah. But kind of a cult favorite of its own. And I guess part of it is like is there a way to preserve some of the talent at these studios without just outright shutting them down? Like is that really the only option here is just completely closing.

I mean, in Arcane's case, so I did a report on Redfell last year a few weeks after the game came out. And one of the things I found was that a lot of the people who worked on prey had actually left. Oh, interesting. Okay. Because a lot of them came to that studio to work on single player immersive Sims. And then they had to work on this multiplayer game for five years. But that wasn't their fault. Like, it kind of seemed like Redfall was forced to be something that nobody working on it wanted it to be.

And then they were punished for it by having their studio close. That's unfortunate. Yeah, although it's worth noting Redfall wasn't a Microsoft decision. It was greenlit by Xenamax before Microsoft purchased. And then it was kind of too late to fix it by the time those changes were made. And yeah. And I mean, what happens in this case, like a lot of people kind of publicly traded companies, they're not looking at past performance or looking at future expectations.

And so past performance plays a role in that. But at the end of the day, this was likely some accountants at Xbox and executives looking at the spreadsheets and saying, hey, it would cost us this much money to work to greenlight a new game for Arcane Austin. Let's just shut it down instead because we need to cut costs. Here's what I think happened, and this is kind of based on talking to a whole bunch of people. I think there are a few factors of play here. One of them is that Xbox Game Pass, which is the much lauded, I know you love it, the subscription

service that Xbox provides where you can pay $10 a month or so to have access to just like hundreds of games that you can just play at any time and essentially don't have to pay for them. That has handicapped a lot of their games performance and their sales. And something that a lot of people at Bethesda and ZenMex have grumbled to me and grumbled with each other over the last few years, is that their bonuses were tied to game sales and suddenly their game sales were sucking because everything is on Game Pass. And I think that happened with High Fire Rush as an example. That game, I think they had said it reached two million players, but a lot of those were just getting it for free on GamePass. So like those were not

sales. So that's a big part of this equation is that like these that if you're looking at just sales numbers, they're not going to be as impressive because of Game Pass. The other part of the equation, and on top of that by the way is that they suddenly any ZenMX games that were on

PlayStation and this included like Redfall Starfield, etc. We're no longer on PlayStation. And then they Xbox would later release high five Russian PlayStation but that was like way too little too late. Yeah. The other factor, I think, and this is kind of, let's call it reported speculation or what I've gotten, the buzz I've gotten from talking to people. Sure, yes. Is that Microsoft has gotten a lot more pressure

in recent months from their higher up. Microsoft gaming has gotten pressure from Microsoft higher ups as a result of the Activision deal because suddenly they have this $69 billion albatross and some of the decisions. Yeah, right? So like some of the decisions. Some of the decisions that maybe they were making under the radar before, not so much under the radar now. Phil Spencer has made this huge purchase and yes, more scrutiny from above. That makes sense. When you look at a company like Xenamax and you're like, man, what are we doing with all these different studios? Like how does this really fit into our portfolio and we have to make cost

cutting that this is kind of what we're seeing? And I think that that is kind of a net effect of all of this consolidation. So despite all of the people who were rooted in, for this deal that merger to go through, I think it's going to cause some pain and has caused a lot of pain for folks already. Yeah. It really seems that way in ways that I guess we should have predicted, but how could we have? Because it's such a massive moving of tectonic plates that, like, you don't know which

parts of the world are going to collapse in response to a merger that's that big or an acquisition that big. But also just kind of circling back to the first half of your point, it's interesting to hear that anybody at studios is frustrated by GamePass because I feel like we only ever hear about what a boon it is and like, oh, you know, Microsoft is raking it in with all these GamePass subscriptions. It's actually really good for games and good for devs, but it is apparently actually affecting other bottom lines. And like, how is that money being divvied up? That's another mystery to me is like, okay. like what percentage of those subscription fees that gamers are paying is that being reflected in what they're choosing to download or like playtime and like how is that being allocated? I that's completely

invisible. Great question. It's invisible to a lot of people who work there too. Not a good sign if that's the case. Yeah. I mean, GamePass I think is frustrating for a lot of game developers. There are certainly some who have who have benefited a great deal from it. Sure. Whether because Microsoft was helping fun in their games or because they reached huge audiences that otherwise wouldn't reach their games. But something I've heard quite a bit is this concern of Game Pass kind of devaluing games in people's minds the way that Spotify has devalued music. Yeah, absolutely. Nobody buys music anymore because it's not a fine.

Or other streaming services devalue other TV and movies. So you could argue. Right. Yeah. Like why go see a movie if you could just watch it on Netflix? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so that is a big concern and a trend to live. look out for in the near future. One more thing I'll say, I won't say who, but I saw Sarah Bond, who's an executive at Xbox, retweeted someone who had put up a picture that was like a patch of, and that was like

Xbox, Bethesda, Activision, whatever, Blizzard King. It was like, all of us together, united, like making great game experiences. And I had two thoughts at that. It's since been deleted after the news this week. But I had two thoughts on that.

One is that, oh my God, like, I can't believe this is all one company. Yeah. That sounds like in 30 Rock where they're like GE Universal like McDonald's. Like the comedic version of it. It's like showing all the different consolidated brands. And it's like a terrifying or a boros of just logos. Yeah. It's really, it's like a cyberpunk thing, like a dystopian future of like the mergers,

the mega mergers that is now in real life. And yeah. Yeah, we're starting to see the repercussions. The other part, of course, is that we've talked about this. but industry-wide carnage and layoffs and economic uncertainty, interest rates being high, and money no longer floating around, a lot of kind of factors there as well, and contraction after a huge period of growth during COVID. So those are factors as well, but Microsoft is its own unique beast.

All right, let's talk about some games, because despite all the doom and gloom, there are some really cool video games, including two that came out this week that we should talk about. Let's start with Hades 2. Maddie, you are playing a ton of Hades 2. Tell me about it. I am. Is it good? I am playing a ton of Hades 2. It's so good. So, I mean, originally I thought we were going to go really deep on Hades 2 today. So I started writing down all the boons that I think are really good. If you, I don't know, Jason, if you care about this. We have time. We have time to do some deep dive. All right. So I've made it pretty far in Hades 2. So I've now got a lot of opinions about who is and isn't worth taking a boon from. So just to sets the

seen a little bit for people who don't know how Hades worked. This is basically set in the world of Greek mythology. The first Hades you're playing is Zagrius, the son of Hades, the king of the underworld. Now you're playing as his much younger sister who doesn't even know really her family. She doesn't know Hades and Persephone, her parents. She doesn't really know her older brother Zagrius. But those three people have been kidnapped by a titan, which is always kind of like one of the foes of the Greek gods of of of of yore and so she needs to fight back against literal time itself chronos who is the dad of hades this is a lot of Greek lore but the game really goes hard on this and it's very fun to learn about and so she is battling through all of these different parts of the

underworld and it's implied she's going to be battling in Olympus as well but the game is an early access so we don't have the entire game yet which is kind of a fun thing that also has happened with Hades 1, where they put out, Super Giant Games put out part of the game, and then they iterated on it a bunch and then did a full release of Hades 1. Great game. We talked about it a ton at the time. And then now this is just the early access release of Hades 2 that I've been playing. And it's similar. So it's also, it's a rogue-like. So Melanoe, who's the lead character, the heroine, I mentioned, she's kind of returning to the same starting point every time. And so she's battling through these different stages of the

underworld and then if she dies, she'll return back to like her home base. And through each stage of the underworld, she'll run into a different Greek god kind of visiting her for Mount Olympus to maybe help her out in fighting against eventually Kronos, who's the god of time. And each of these gods, I mean, I know them from, were you like the kind of dork Jason growing up who really liked all the Greek gods? Oh yeah. I loved them. I have that book. You know that book that's like Dadallian's like myths? Yeah. It's famous. It's a famous book. It's a famous book. pretty much every dork had this had a copy of this book. I had that and then I had this book called the Book of Goddesses that was just like deep dives on all the Greek goddesses and other goddesses

from other folklore. It was great. And from that book, I remember thinking Hestio was one of my favorite goddesses. Sorry, not to Dallelior. Deolores. Yeah, I knew what you were talking about. But it's important that we get this right for the nerds out there who had the same book. I saw it in the bookstore recently. I was going to buy it for my daughter, but she's not quite old enough yet. That's only a couple years. Fair enough. But when she is, she's going to get into Greek gods because they're just cool to know about. So one of the, one of those Greek goddesses that I really liked growing up was Hestia because

she doesn't actually, she's kind of like the shy, cool one. And she doesn't actually like have a seat at the table. She's tending the fire at Mount Olympus. And I was like a shy weirdo growing up. So that was the goddess I could relate to. This is part of white Greek folklor. Yeah, I didn't really. But I just, I kind of saw myself in that way.

Plus Artemis was another cool one. she's in the game too. And so one of the boons that I've ended up really liking is actually one of Hestia's boons. These are like the power-ups that you get in between levels of the roguelike. And Hesia wasn't in Haney's one. So it's like, I'm already excited. I'm like, oh, more gods are being added. The memories for my childhood are getting unlocked finally.

And so I'm going to recommend to the listener if they start playing Hades 2. Soot Sprint is the name of the one that I really recommend because it basically reduces or negates entirely projectile damage if you're sprinting. And it's so, so useful. And it's particularly useful if you make it all the way to Kronos, who is the final boss of the early access, because he has so many projectiles. So that's my first tip is if you see Hesdia, you got to pay attention to the Sutsprint power up because it's going to really, really help you out. Yeah, I can keep going. It's not just kidding. A lot of the bosses have a ton of it. It's very bullet-hull-ish game. Yeah. In a way.

more so than the first game, I would say. Yes. I mean, I would say they're both pretty bullet hell-e, but this next- Maybe I'm misremembering how many bullets there were in the first game. They both are, but like I would say anything that improves your kind of dash ability, you have sort of like a super speed dash and kind of powers that up is going to be beneficial. And then the other thing that I've found to be really fun in this game is just all of Hermes's speed-based power-ups.

It increases your walk speed. I mean, they call it your sprint speed. And initially that confused me. And I was like, is this just going to make my dash faster? But it's actually referring to how fast you're just running around the level. And you can go so fast. It's wild. So it's like to the point where even if you aren't dashing, you can just run out of the way of certain attacks.

And so that's really, really helpful. And my last couple of recommendations are Aphrodite has a couple of really good, like, health-based ones. I usually am not managing to dodge that many attacks when I play these games. I don't know how good you are at this Jason, but I'll always go for some Aphrodite health-based attacks because otherwise I'm doomed. Yeah, those are useful. Yeah.

And then anything with bonus damage to armor because also when you get to Kronos, there's a lot of enemies with armor. Like early on I was like, armor, why do I even care about that? None of these enemies even have armor. Well, later they do. So those are my tips

as somebody who's gotten very Hades 2 pilled over the past couple weeks of my life. If people want to know, those are Maddie's top four boon, recommendations. Those are good tips. Those are solid tips. Um, safe to say you're enjoying the game. I am loving the game. I'm loving the game. I mean, the story is great too, but I want to let people discover that for themselves, you know? I figured I would just stick to mechanical observations for now, especially because you're still starting it out. Well, I was surprised pretty early on to see that

there's like flashbacks. Yeah. And a lot of kind of interacting with people. And the first game also had a lot of story. Yeah. And I loved that part. It feels like it's really ramping it up. Yeah, I'm really curious. I played, I'm up to the second boss. Which is a great one. The sirens, I love the song that they have. It's so good. Like, the sirens are like rock vixens in this game and they like play the drums and guitar instead of just being cool mermaids, which it's very funny. The music in this game is incredible. Yeah, great music. I was, I kind of, at first I was like, oh, this just feels like more Hades. But the more I play, the more I'm kind of learning. It's, it's changes. and the new spell system you can use and kind of the new, there's like a boon with the moon goddess who gives you like a special ability in addition to all of your normal ability. So there's a lot of new kind of depth to it that I'm still in the process of figuring out.

So I'm sure I'll get deep into it in the weeks and months to come. Although as always with early access games, never sure how much I actually want to play. Well, I was going to say never sure how much I actually want to play until the final release comes out. Because like with Hades, one, the three of us all got really into it when 1.0 is released. Yeah. I kind of want to do that as well.

Early access is always kind of a tough, tough, like, I don't know, sirens call. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I feel like it's almost easier for me to make the decision because I'm just playing it for Polygon and just helping out. So I'm playing it anyway. But I do kind of sympathize with that. And I feel like a lot of just friends of mine have been like, I can't decide whether to play. it and I'm like, I'm not really sure how to help you make this decision because it really is subjective. I mean, we don't know how much the game's story might even change over the course of the next year or so.

And that might be kind of weird. Like if you're playing the game and you're like, okay, I have this certain sense of who these characters are. And then they're going to maybe release a patch that completely rewrites a whole storyline. I mean, with a game that has this much writing in it, that does seem like kind of a weird. I mean, I don't know if that's going to happen or not. This is just me speculating. Yeah, I don't know. That seems, it seems more likely it would be additive rather than kind of transformative.

I hope so. And I think they know that. Like, I think Super Giant's developers know that people care so much about the story that they've probably finalized a lot of the major plot beats so that then when they're adding on to the game, it'll just be like further parts of the story in the future, like further chapters built upon what I've already played, which seems like the best way to go. That seems like a good game. guess. So they've said a couple of things. They said that they're, they're probably not going to

release 1.0 until like at the earliest, at the end of this year, at the earliest, it's probably going to be early access for at least the rest of the year. They said that like a lot of things are subject to change like UI and kind of balance tweaks and a bunch of like content related stuff. So yeah, the game will change and I think that's a good thing. And I'm looking for it. I'll probably play a little bit more and then just kind of put it aside until it really comes out for real. And then the three of us, I'm sure, will just go go super hardcore into Hades too. But yeah, I felt myself getting that same itch that I got. Yeah, like one more run. One more run. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, where you're like really into it. You're like, oh man, I can't wait to get all these

different types of, of, what are they called the artifacts you get at the beginning? The keepsakes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. The keepsakes. where you're like getting rings from people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, oh, that one's really good. And then you're like leveling up in this game, it's like kind of these astrology-like cards because she's got this like witchy magic.

And that's a little different from Zagriot. So she has these witchy themes around how her powers work. And so you're like unfurling these cards. Yeah, it's cool. There's one that just gives you like, one gives you a death defiance every single run. Which I love. Unless you'd like come back to life if you die.

Yeah, good stuff. And yeah, I'm looking forward to playing more, hopefully, down the road. One more thing I'll say is that I've been playing it on my Steam deck. Oh, it's so good on there. Because it's not on Switch. It's only an early access on PC. I'm sure it'll come to switch to down the road. But like right now, if you want to play it handheld, Steam Deck is the way to go.

Oh, it's so good out there. It's amazing. Man, the Steam Deck, I don't know about you. The Steam Deck has become my favorite console. Oh, yeah. It's so good. I can't believe I took a while to get one. And now it's all I ever want to do is play my Steam deck.

And then whenever I go back to my Switch, I'm always like kind of amazed by how lightweight it is. That's really my only complaint about the Steam deck is that it is heavy. You are getting a bit of a handwork. It is heavy, but the performance is like... I know, you can't beat it. You can't feed it. And it has everything on there because I can play PS5 games on there now.

You can even put GamePass on there. I know we were just talking about GamePass earlier and whether or not it's fair to developers, but sorry to say I have game pass on my seam deck. So speaking of Steam Deck games that I've been really enjoying. So, man, Animal Well, Animal Well is a game. It is out today. It's made by one guy, Billy Bousseau, published most kind of well known by video game Dunkie, who is the famous YouTuber and started a game publisher.

This is his first game. And I got to say, Dunkie, if you keep picking games like this, I will follow everything you do. Really good pay. Animal Well. And I'm a 2D puzzle platformer that I think is best described as a cross between Super Metroid and Outer Wilds, which is like Maddie Baker. I know. I mean, it's why I'm loving it. But it's also why you and I think Kirk are also really enjoying. Yeah. Well, I mean, remember, Kirk and I both are at least I'm a Super Metroid head too. For sure. And I mean, we talked about Outer Wilds on this show a million times.

Yes. And Outer Wilds we all are in love with. This is a game that is partially about like going around and doing classic Metrovania stuff where you're jumping on platforms and solving puzzles and collecting new objects that'll help you unlock different parts of the map and backtracking and all sorts of stuff like that. And it's also a secret hunting game. And I think that combination is just so brilliant and the way it's handled is so brilliant in this game that it's got me playing. I've played so many hours of this game. I've spent so much time in a discord with other people who are reviewers and critics playing a pre-release version of the game, who are like laboring to find the secrets because the way it works is it's kind of the best way to think of it as a game in three layers, right? So the first layer is kind of the basic

Metroidvania stuff. You can play the game. You see the credits. You kind of collect these objects and you have a good time doing it. And traversal abilities basically per object. Traversal abilities. You solve some puzzles. You see the credits. You have a good time. You wind up at the kind of in this end state. And then you realize that there's a ton more to do because you'll be unlocking. new objects after the, like right after the credits, you'll unlock some new stuff and be like, oh, I guess there's more of this game. Well, I guess they should keep playing. Yeah. Exactly. And that's when you realize there's the second layer. And the second layer is call, I'll just say, it's about hunting eggs. And you have to go around and you hunt X number of eggs. And that is a lot more complicated because a lot of them are hidden in really devilish ways and require you to do a lot more secret hunting and thinking. And it's kind of, it's more like

that I'm going to go and do 100% of this game. And that I think most players should be able to do mostly by themselves. I had to ask for a couple of hints or collaborate with people to try to figure out a couple of different kind of tricky eggs towards the end of my hunt. But you'll get new objects that help you find them and you'll do a lot of backtracking and like notice things you didn't notice before. And it's kind of this is a real fun like Outer Wilds part of the game, I would say, where you're really just doing kind of Metroid Braini stuff where like having knowledge.

will help you unlock something in a way that you couldn't figure out before. And then, once you get the eggs, then you reach the third layer of the game. And the third layer of the game, I would say this isn't really something that most people will do or have to think about doing. But if you're into it, it is so much fun. Because the third layer of the game involves secrets that you will only be able to find or solve by working with other players in a lot of different ways. And I won't get into specifics because maybe in a few weeks.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not at this level yet, but I'm very curious about it. Because I've heard you and friend of the show Russ Frustick talking about how just driven mad by this game, he has become. I mean, it's, it's very entertaining to hear someone talk about this, like how many secrets they're waiting for me. Russ and I have had a lot of conversations. Oh, my God. He is, he is animal well-pilled. He is fully, fully in Scots. There are a few of us.

Yeah. A shout out to there's this one guy, Andrew Stretch, who worked. for Tech Raptor, that website, who has just been a superhero in the Discord for Animal Well pre-release. Yeah, there's like a reviewers discord of just only people who have advanced codes, so you're trying to figure it out amongst yourselves before release day, I guess. And some of the things people have figured out are just mind-boggling, like the secrets that are hidden in this game. I spoke to Billy Busu a few days ago, and he told me that there are secrets in the game that he, A, hopes and B expects people will never find.

Or we'll take years to five. There's some stuff, dude, you have no idea how deep the rabbit hole, literally, the rabbit hole goes. I mean, that's kind of like what the implication is, right? I mean, isn't it kind of like a pun on rabbit hole, animal well? It's, I won't answer that. One thing I'll say is that there's one puzzle. So this part of the game, you literally cannot solve it without working with other people. There's one puzzle specifically where each.

Each different game has like a different piece of it. And you have to collaborate with other players and find other people with other pieces. Oh, that's really fun. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much good stuff in this game though.

And like some of that stuff, there's nothing that'll make you feel like more of a genius. Yes. Like unraveling one of the third layer like one of the secrets in the third layer and being like, holy crap. Like I wonder if anyone else has found this. Like it's so cool. Yeah. Because that's where you really get into a lot of the meta stuff and like the really, really hard puzzles that you really have to. But like most players, and I think, I think most people listen to this, you'll probably play just the first two layers and just have an amazing time with the game because those two layers on their own are just so good.

Yeah. I mean, it's an amazing Metroidvania even just as the level one. Like, I'm looking for eggs and I'm having great time. That's so impressive about it. You can just enjoy just the Metroidvania part of it. And it's really not, I mean, we're calling it a Metroidvania. That's fine. We can debate what that means.

But there's really not combat in this game. It's kind of just puzzle and exploration, which tends to be my favorite part of a Metroidvania is just environmental puzzles, looking at something and being like, huh, what if I use my traversal ability in that way? Could I get over there? Or like use multiple traversal abilities to do a weird thing? Like, just that in the first level of the game is so fun on its own that it's amazing that the game has these additional layers on top of that. It's kind of like trippily impressive. I agreed. And I was actually, I was talking to Billy Boussa, the developer, Billy Basso. I keep saying Billy Buso. It's Billy Baso. I was talking to him about the design of this game. And he specifically said, like, I knew when I was making this, it took him like some seven years. Seven years, yeah, yeah.

Maybe like three years full time. But he told me specifically, like, I knew that the secret stuff, nobody would care about that unless they really enjoyed the kind of the core mechanics in the first place, which is very accurate. And it feels really good to play. and it's just a blast. I love this game. This game might be my favorite of the year so far. It's so cool. And it looks beautiful. Like the pixel art is really cool. And the music is spooky and beautiful. And it just, I don't know, it's great. It's really great stuff. So I hope a lot of people play it.

I hope a billion people play it. Man, I'm so got the feeling of if you can, if you're into it and you just like join another group of like, like minded players, like get some friends together and start collaborating to. solve that third layer, it is so much fun to try to figure out. I've got to say. And it's been especially fun pre-release because there's no way to look it up online. But like I imagine if you make a vow to yourself, it reminds me you can't really relate to this, but or maybe you can. It reminds me of like destiny raiding when we were like doing a blind back in the day and trying to figure out the mechanics, which is so much fun. But and Kirk and I did that together. Or even with Outer Wilds, like people were always talking like, don't look it up. And I really try to figure it out for yourself, even if you are struggling with it. And that was really fun. Like,

that's what's rewarding about that game is just actually trying to figure it out. The Destiny Raid comparison specifically is doing it with other people, which I think adds to the sense of, and adds to the fun, that's to the collaboration. And yeah, God, what a game. We'll talk more about this soon. I'm sure when Kirk can come back, we'll get more into that because he's also been in the thick of the animal well. But man, what a game. What an incredible. Incredible accomplishment. All right, let's take a break, and then we'll be back with one more thing. Soundheap with John Luke Roberts is a real podcast, made up of fake podcasts.

Like, if you had a cupboard in your lower back, what would you keep in it? So I'm going to say mugs. A little yogurt and a spoon. A small handkerchief that was given to me by my grandmother on her deathbed. Maybe some spare honey. I'd keep batteries in it. I'd pretend to be a toy. If I had a cupboard in my lower back, I'd probably fill it with spines.

If you had a cupboard in your lower back, what would you keep in it doesn't exist. We made it up for Soundheap with John Luke Roberts. An award-winning comedy podcast from Maximum Fun, made up of hundreds of stupid podcasts. Listen and subscribe to Soundheap with John Luke Roberts. Now. Oh my gosh, hi, it's me Dave Holmes, host of the Pop Culture Game Show Troubled Waters. On Troubled Waters, we play a whole host of games, like one where I describe a show using Limerick, and our guests have to figure out what it is. Let's do one right now.

What show am I talking about? This podcast has game after game And brilliant guests who come play him The host is named Dave It could be your fave So try it, life won't be the same A big business starring Bet Middler and Lily Tomlin

Close, but no Oh, is it Troubled Waters The Pop Culture Quiz Show With all your favorite comedians? Yes, Troubled Waters is the answer To this question and all of my life's problems Now, legally, we actually can't guarantee that But you can find it on maximum fun.org

Or wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back Maddie and Jason. It is time for one more thing. It is time. It's time. Maddie, take us away. Start us off. Sure.

So, Deena and I have been watching every single episode of Master Chef, which is a classic Gordon Ramsey television show. Are you just preparing for a triple cook by like... You know, maybe I am. Actually, it started because Dina was like, I just, I'm bored of all my recipes and I just feel like it would be fun if we watch the cooking show together and just came up with some more ideas for what to cook. And I really recommend Master Chef for that, like if you just want to come up with some more ideas on what to cook. But also, it's really fun to watch a super old reality show where just the editing is so old school and like everybody's outfits are like 2011 era and Gordon Ramsey

just insults people. It's on Hulu. Where are you watching it? Is it on Netflix? Is that way you're watching it? It's on Hulu. I mean, I'm sure if it's not on Hulu. Hulu in five years. If someone is listening to this in the far future, it's on some other streaming service. It's like one of those TV shows that's just, it's going to always be streaming and full somewhere. Yeah, there's like 16 seasons of it. It's going to last for the rest of our lives. But we've really been enjoying it. And I've, you know, got grown accustomed to making fun of Gordon Ramsey's little speech patterns. But I will say, it's worth going back to the beginning. There's one season that we've already finished. I think it's season two. It might be

season three where there's a blind woman who's a contestant and she's just incredibly impressive. And the other contestants are just like, you kind of watch everyone slowly get amazed by her over time where like they kind of start out and they're like, is it just like a gimmick and she's just messing with us? But then just over time, they're like, actually she's an incredibly good cook. And it's just, it's really cool to watch. And yeah, she's a really neat character. So I mean, a character. She's a real person. Anyway, it's just interesting. It's interesting to watch an old reality show and just see something like that and be like, oh, that's really cool. So yeah, Master Chef, check it out. That's awesome. So she does, how does she like find and assemble her ingredients? So she

used, so she's allowed to have somebody help her with that part just so that she knows what's available to see. But then when she's cutting stuff on her own, like it is kind of terrifying if you're watching her use like a mandolin, which is like that like slicing thing. But she knows her way around the kitchen so well and is cutting things and not ever cutting herself. It's wild. I don't know. people learn how to deal without sight. And it's very impressive to those of us who are not blind. Or at least it's impressive to me. And it's very cool that she has such an incredible palate as a chef as well. So she's able to like taste the dishes and be like, taste great. And she's even able to plate things. So like they accommodate her by having like Gordon Ramsey will come out and be like, okay, here's a dish I want you to emulate.

That's one of the challenges they do sometimes. And she'll like, they'll like let everyone try it and look at it. But in her case, she has to then, when they're done trying it, like, touch the plate and be like, how did you plate every item on this? Because that's the only way that she would know how to do it. And I thought it was cool that the show actually accommodated her and tried to, like, make it possible for her to compete. So, yeah, old episodes of Master Chef. Pretty cool. Pretty cool. Pretty cool. Okay, cool.

My one more thing is a book that I am about three quarters of the way through called Demon Copperhead by Barbara King Solver. And this book was, yes, so this book, she's a prolific author. She's written like 10 bucks or something like that. This book was very popular last year. It won a ton of awards, including the Pulitzer Prize. Wow. Bestseller. It was everywhere.

And so this book, it's really interesting. It's kind of, it's a new take on the classic Charles Dickens book, David Copperfield. And it's called Demon Copperhead. Demon being the kind of nickname of the main character, his name is Damon. and Copperhead being a type of snake that is relevant to his kind of upbringing and where he lives. And he lives in, he's this poor kind of foster kid, Down in Isla Kidd in Appalachia. And he goes to this saga of growing up and shuffling around to different places, sort of like David Copperfield does in the novel. And there's a lot of just kind of references and name connections to the classic book.

Have you read the original? I have not. And in fact, I haven't either so. I've been avoiding going on Wikipedia because the story is kind of, I don't want to know the story, right? Oh, interesting. It's got spoilers. Yeah. But this book is, it's got a propulsive story.

It's really, really good. And the way it's written is really, I was kind of, I'm always a little bit hesitant to pick up kind of quote unquote literary novels because sometimes I just get so bored of nothing happening that I'm just like, man, this prose is pretty and all. But like, where's the story? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like I don't really need another 10.

pages of quilting. But this book is like nonstop story, like action, like fascinating, like, or I shouldn't say action in the traditional sense. But there's like, you really get inside. Yeah. Things are occurring. You get inside the character's head. You kind of, it's like there's so much tragedy that happens to him that you're just like, oh my God, I can't take any more of like bad things happening to him. I mean, I'm sure that's like in the Dickens book because I know from reading other Dickens novels that that's his thing. Bad stuff just keeps happening. Yeah. And was really interesting is that like kind of applying that. So Barbara King solver, the writer grew up in Kentucky. So she is familiar with this kind of this poor like the word hillbilly is brought up a lot

or like or trailer trash is kind of brought up and that word that term itself is explored in the book. And that kind of like mountain appellation lifestyle and upbringing that she knows it well. And it's clearly reflected here. And it's really, really interesting and heartbreaking to kind of read this kind of story and get this kind of this updated version. There's a lot of stuff that is infuriating about foster care and that whole system. And it's just really interesting and just a hell of a book from what I've read so far. I can see why it was so critically acclaimed. And one of the reasons that I wanted to bring it up here in addition to just being my one more thing because I've been reading it is just like, I think people who might be like me and might

be bored easily and might be kind of allergic to a lot of the kind of critically clean literary novels where nothing happens. This book is not like that. A lot of stuff happens in this book. It is really phenomenal. And it's it's just incredibly well written and well structured and well constructed. And I'm just really loving it. So highly recommend it. Once again, Demon Copperhead by Barbara King Solver. Wow. It sounds really good. All right. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll just read David Copperfield first. You could do that. I'm very curious. I might actually, I might read that after this. Yeah, I feel like that would be kind of fun to go back and read it. I mean, it depends on the Dickens novel. Some of them really move at a clip, but you never know what that guy, because he was writing serially, too.

Like he was like putting a chapter a week or whatever, so it was like a very different way of writing a story. It could be really boring. I don't know. Yeah, it can be. Yeah, it's funny. So I love reading and I've always loved to read. but when I was in high school, I was kind of allergic to authority, I would say. And so when a book was assigned to me in English class, I just would refuse to read that. Yeah, you'd be like, I'm not going to read that. Yeah, so I didn't really read a lot of the classics. Yeah. I was like, screw the classics.

I'm going to read animorphs instead. Okay, well, that is a classic. So I think you're right. Yeah, I mean, it served me well. All right. I would normally I would say, Kirk, Maddie, but now I just can only say Maddie. It is time to say goodbye. That's right.

So hopefully we're not sure what the next couple of weeks are going to look like. We're going to kind of try to figure out, well, we might do this on the fly the next couple weeks. So it might not be normal episode scheduled, just a heads up for everybody. But we will do our best. We will. Of course, we will all be intact and ready to go a month from now for our live show. So do not miss that. Absolutely.

Nothing is going to stop us. Nothing will stop us from being in Los Angeles that weekend. It's going to be really fun. All right, Maddie. I will see you next time. Bye. Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddie Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music.

Our show art is by Tom DJ. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network. And if you like our show, we hope you'll consider supporting us by becoming a member at maximum fun.org slash join.

Find us on Twitter at triple clickpod. Send email the triple click at maximum fun.org and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.