True Crime All The Time - Aaron Hernandez Part 2

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

Aaron Hernandez showed exceptional athletic talent from a young age. In high school, he was recruited to play football at the University of Florida, and ultimately he left college early to join the NFL. It seemed like Aaron had everything. He was a millionaire playing for a top NFL team. He was engaged to his high school sweetheart and had a daughter with her, and he was a talented football player with a promising future. But, Aaron’s success abruptly came to an end when he was charged with murder in June 2013. Join Mike and Gibby as they finish up with part 2 on Aaron Hernandez. We cover his multiple trials, his death, and the news that followed about his personal life and CTE. There were a number of people with Aaron the night that Odin Lloyd was killed. Just exactly what role did they play and what should their sentences have been?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 335 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing well. How about yourself? I'm doing very well. Good. Having a good week.

Awesome. Getting ready for Memorial Day weekend. Oh yeah. Hope everybody has a good one. Sure. A lot of people have an extra day off. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Up Las Vegas.

What's going on? Up Las Vegas. Michelle Stromer. Hey, Michelle. Alyssa Davis. I appreciate that, Alyssa. Brandon Van Nostron. Ah, Van Nostron.

The doctor. Yes. Dolores Valdez. Hey, Valdez. Charlie Jansen. What's going on? Charlie. Samantha.

Samantha. Samantha. Samantha. Amber. Hey, Amber. Cora Welsh. What's going on, Cora? Pittsburgh, Sarah.

Hey, Pittsburgh. Shannon Bristol. What's going on, Shannon? Tracy Hacklock Jens. Hacklock. Tony Brousar. Hey, Tony. Frank Kelly.

What's? What's going on, Frank? And last but not least, Lauren Williams. Hey, there's Lauren. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Julie Esson. You're awesome, Julie. Thank you. Yeah, we appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support very, very much.

Gibbs, we have a lot out right now. We just recorded a brand new Patreon-only episode. We did. On Richard Lee McCoy. This is a guy who committed an armed robbery. Yeah. at a liquor store and shot and killed the female clerk. But really it's a, it's a story of the trial process, you know, some recordings that were

ruled it missable against him. Right. His own words kind of backing up what he did. You know, I found it to be a pretty interesting case. So did I. And then we have a new true crime all the time unsolved episode out where we're headed to Australia. We are. To talk about the unsolved murder.

of Shirley Finn. That's a good one. You know, when you think about that this murder took place in the 75, but really didn't get any traction until 2014-15, it makes you wonder what happened during that time?

Yeah, it's almost like 40 years before anything started to really move along. But when it did, it really had a few years, like three, four years in a row there where it got a lot of interest and a lot of conversations occurred. Yeah, so check that out.

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We are on to our part two and final part of Aaron Hernandez. In part one, we discussed his early life and his football career, the murder of Odin Lloyd and the investigation that led the police to identify Hernandez as a suspect. In part two will cover Aaron's two murder trials, his death, and the news that followed about his personal life and CTE. On December 12, 2014, a judge threw out as evidence text messages sent by Oden Lloyd and ruled that prosecutors could not tell jurors about the 2012 murders.

The prosecution said that Aaron may have shown Oden Lloyd the location where the murders took place, which could give him a possible motive to kill Lloyd. The judge ruled there was no link between the crimes. The judge also ruled out testimony about the February 2013 shooting. What's a win for the defense? Yeah, absolutely because I think the prosecution is saying, here's your motive. Lloyd knew about the 2012 murders and so he had to be silenced. Aaron's first trial started on January 29th, 2015. ADA Patrick Bomberg presented surveillance videos, shell casings.

DNA and rental cars linking Aaron to the murder. He told the court, according to WGBH, he set up a meeting with Odin Lloyd, took stabs to conceal his own role by using the phones of others. He drove for more than two hours. The only purpose for which was to get the victim into the secluded area. He orchestrated and participated in the killing. That's a lot. That's a strong statement coming out.

Yeah, I mean, when you think about surveillance, video, shell casings, DNA, and these rental cars that we talked about in, in episode one, it does seem like a lot for the jury, right? And not good for Aaron Hernandez and the defense. The prosecution argued that Carlos Ortiz and Ernest Wallace were in the car that night and were what they called willing participants in Aaron's plan. Ernest Wallace was described as Aaron's right-hand man, according to the Boston Globe. Now, the prosecution didn't get really much in tumult. Right.

The judge ruled against them on what we just talked about. But they did tell the jury that Odin Lloyd saw some of his friends at the club in Boston that night and Aaron left angry. A valet saw Aaron standing outside a hotel and shove a gun into his waistband and then cover it with his jacket before leaving with. Odin Lloyd. The next day, Aaron texted Ortiz and Wallace and asked them to drive to Massachusetts. All right. Not great when the valet sees you shoving a gun into your waistband, but what does it mean in that moment versus what does it mean when the person you're with Oden Lloyd later turns up dead?

Yeah, unless, you know, the defense can say, well, he did this a lot for his own personal protection. He carried a gun. Yeah. I mean, you can argue it both ways, but the fact remains that Oden Lloyd later turned up dead. Sure. So it doesn't look great. On June 16th, before Aaron met with Wallace and Ortiz, he and his fiance went to a restaurant in Providence with their friends.

Aaron later told people that he couldn't have been at the industrial park because he was in Providence, but surveillance footage showed that this wasn't true. Defense attorney Michael Feet said Aaron was told. targeted by the police, telling the court, as reported by WGBH, as soon as they found out that Aaron Hernandez, the celebrity football player, the New England Patriot, was a friend of Odin Lloyd's. Aaron never had a chance. I mean, the defense can say what they want.

At the end of the day, the assumption is that the police are just doing what they have to do based on the information provided, the evidence that is collected, it, not just targeting an individual because they don't like that individual. Or they're a celebrity or they're a celebrity. I mean, can it happen? Yes. Oh, sure. Could police target someone?

Sure. Yeah. But then how do you explain all the evidence? Does that then have to be made up, manufactured? Because the surveillance video shows what it shows. Right. The casings are going to, you know, show what. they show, the DNA, all that stuff.

The defense argued that the two men partied together. Odin Lloyd was the one who hooked Aaron up with marijuana and they were friends. Michael Fee asked the jury why Aaron would jeopardize his football career, saying, per the Boston Globe, he had the world at his feet. In June of 2013, Aaron was planning his future, not a murder. Now, I get that argument and it's something that you and I bring up. a lot. Why would somebody do something to to jeopardize what they have? And most of the time, we're not talking about celebrities or, you know, famous athletes. We're talking about people with a

wife and kids. Yeah. Why would they go out and kill people? Well, they do. We know they do. Every day. The defense didn't dispute that Aaron was with two men at the industrial park on the night of Odin Lloyd's murder. But they did argue that the prosecution. didn't have any direct evidence that Aaron was the one who shot Lloyd or that he even wanted Lloyd dead. The defense pointed out that the murder weapon, a 45 caliber Glock pistol was never found. I mean, that's a good strong point for the defense, right? You don't have the murder weapon. How do you know that the defendant killed him? Yeah, you know what was used to shoot Odin Lloyd. but the defense is saying, you know, how do you know that Aaron pulled the trigger?

Right. There was four people in that parking lot that night. But Judge Susan Garsh told the jury that prosecutors didn't have to prove Aaron pulled the trigger to convict him of murder. All they had to do was show that he knowingly participated in the murder and intended to bring it to fruition, according to the Boston Globe. Well, that's a lot easier to prove. Yeah, because I don't know how you do. prove that somebody actually pulled the trigger unless you have video of it. Right. Or you have the murder weapon and maybe that's the only person's prints that are on it, but without the murder weapon, I don't know how you prove. On February 10th, 2015, the judge released a decision

that Cheyanna Jenkins would be grand immunity and compelled to testify. On March 2nd, Judge Garsh reversed her ruling to block any mention of Odin Lloyd's text, but Lloyd's sister would not be able to talk about the nature of the text or the text where Lloyd mentioned being with someone from the NFL. So these are some big rulings. Huge. And I do think you have a lot of these in different cases. I think I've said it before, right?

What makes it in and what is excluded is huge in really any trial, but especially a murder trial. And, you know, some of these texts that we kind of detailed out in episode one. one, while not conclusively incriminating, they definitely were kind of head scratchers. Sure. Now, I understand why the judge wouldn't want the one about someone being in the NFL. That's very, what do you call it?

Vague? Well, no. It's pretty specific. There's only so many people in the NFL. But I mean, like, it doesn't really, it doesn't say it's him. It doesn't say it's him, but the jury's going to put it together. It applies. that it's probably yeah and i don't think they want that type of right bias but she ruled that the other

ones could come in also wonder how this played out between the two women being sisters and the loyalty that one would have to erin and obviously the other sister to odin yeah it's uh and then you have the their parents their family you know was it divided were most of the family on one side you know I don't know. I didn't see much about it. Maybe we'll talk about it later. But on March 23rd, the jury learned about a $15,000 payment allegedly made to a man who admitted to shipping guns to Massachusetts before the murder on April 11th, 2013. Aaron went to a Bank of America in Hermosa Beach, California, and deposited three checks worth $1.8 million.

Just a payday. I mean, that's just a weekly. trip to the bank for you, isn't it? It's just every week. I got three checks here. They total up about $2 million. Yeah. Give me back $100,000 for some walking cash.

Exactly. A bank teller testified that she transferred $15,000 to an account for Oscar Hernandez, not related to Aaron, per Aaron's request. Oscar Hernandez pleaded guilty in federal court to conspiring to deliver firearms illegally. Three counts of lying to a federal. grand jury, witnessed tampering and obstruction of justice. Authority said that he transferred guns in a Toyota Camry to Massachusetts after he got the $15,000 from Aaron.

These guns included a 22 caliber Jimenez pistol found near the crime scene and a rifle found in the Camry in Aaron's garage. The federal indictment didn't mention a 45 caliber gun. Okay, so I would say pretty damning. I think so. It's not looking good. According to the Boston Globe, prosecutor said in a court filing that Ernest Wallace vowed not to talk

and urged Aaron to do the same. After they were both arrested, Wallace talked to Aaron's cousin, Tanya Singleton from jail, and said, tell him no matter what. Don't think I'm la la lying. I'll never go against the grain. You hear me?

He was referencing singing to the police. Later that day, Tanya talked to Aaron and told him she wasn't going to say anything. Prosecutors wanted to introduce jailhouse phone conversations at trial. They argued that the call showed that Aaron was able to obtain the silence of Tanya Singleton. Transcripts also stated that Aaron told another cousin to let him know when Tanya was running low on funds in jail. Okay. Is he, you know, funneling money into her account because, you know, he likes her, their friends,

They're close. Buying silence? Or is he buying her silence? Yeah. Well, he's got a lot of money to do a lot of buying of silence. Oh, yeah. Yeah. More than your average person, that's for sure.

Yeah. By the time of the trial, Tanya Singleton had pleaded guilty to contempt of court, but was still facing a conspiracy charge. According to oxygen, Tanya refused to testify in Aaron's case. She spent months in jail. Court documents state that she was accused of making overt attempts to hinder or mislead the investigation. She refused to testify before a grand jury about the Oden Lloyd's shooting even after she was

offered immunity. She was charged with criminal contempt and later indicted on a charge of conspiracy to commit accessory after the fact. As we talked about in part one, prosecutors alleged that she drove Ernest Wallace out of the state and bought him a bus ticket. Tanya Singleton ended up. pleading guilty to contempt, despite the fact that Aaron tried to buy her silence by offering her hundreds of thousands of dollars for her children. Like you said, he could afford it.

I mean, when you deposit three checks totaling $1.8 million, okay, you got some money to play around with. Sure. You probably had a lot more millions in the bank already. Well, we mentioned that big $12.5 million signing bonus and the $40 million contract. Prosecutor said, Aaron, never set up the accounts. Aaron's team said there was no proof he influenced Tanya in any way. So if that's true, and he did try to buy her silence and offered her money, but then didn't go through with it. Okay.

Well, maybe that's the reason why she ended up Capey. You got to follow through on a promise like that in times like this. In 2014, a judge decided not to sentence Tanya to jail when local officials said that, Their facilities could not provide medical treatment for her. She was suffering from cancer at that time. She was sentenced to two years probation and court ordered not to have contact with Aaron or anyone related to the cases. Tanya was also charged with contempt for refusing to testify in the 2012 shooting case.

She pleaded guilty and received another two-year probation sentence. So she slapped with four years of probation. Not a big deal, really. No, it's really not, especially when, you know, you're battling cancer and you think about what the alternative could have been. Yeah. Prosecutor showed the jury checks that Cheyana Jenkins wrote to housekeepers in April and May 2013. Her sister, Sheena Jenkins, testified at trial that she visited Cheyana and Aaron at their home the day after the murder. Sheana asked to borrow her car to get cash.

to pay the cleaners. The prosecution alleged that Shiana put the bag containing the murder weapon into her sister's car. Man, that's a, that is an allegation right there. It is. Now, Shania testified that Shania was secretive and wasn't acting normally that day. Shiana received text messages and went to the basement with a black garbage bag. Prosecutor said that she had just received text from Aaron asking her to remove a box from the basement. Shiana Jenkins testified on March 27, 2015, outside of the presence of the jury. She testified that on the night of June 17th,

she drove Aaron to the police station. Aaron instructed her to meet Ernest Wallows and give him money. She met him in a parking lot in East Greenwich, Rhode Island, and withdrew $500 from a nearby bank. She said she wasn't sure why. She was asked to do this on her way home. She received calls from Aaron, her mom, and sister. Reports indicated that during one of these calls,

Sheena told Cheyana that Odin had been found. Sheena also testified on March 30th. She said that Aaron called her on June 18, 2013, and told her to remove a box from their storage room, according to CNN. A text from Aaron to her read, go in back of the screen and movie room when you get home and there is a box just in case you were looking for it. Remember how you ruined the big TV was just thinking about that LOL wink wink

love you talk to you later. Kay we got kind of decipher that message between the two of them. Yeah I mean he doesn't come out and say go get the box with the guns in it or you know anything like that she said she never saw. was inside the box and Aaron never told her what was inside. Prosecutors believed this box contained the murder weapon. However, the defense said it may have held marijuana and referenced Shiaana's testimony about the smell and weight of the box. She testified that she put the box in clothing inside a garbage bag.

She did this, in her words, so nothing was exposed. She then drove around to search for a dumpster. The prosecutor asked her about the fact. that she couldn't remember where the dumpster was, she replied that she was stressed after Lloyd's murder. Yeah, I mean, her sister's boyfriend was just killed, probably freaking out, you know. You would think so.

You would think so. But I want to go back to, you know, kind of this testimony. If you're a juror, what does it all mean? You know, like the text messages to me were cryptic. They were. She's basically saying that Aaron asked me to do a series of thing. Yeah.

But what does that series of things actually mean? What was the money for that she gave Ernest Wallace? What was in the box? What's in the box? What's in the box? I think the prosecution is trying to say she's paying Ernest for his role. She's disposing of the gun or guns. But the defense is saying, no, she's just getting rid of a box that she was asked to get rid of,

maybe had marijuana in it. And she's just helping out a friend. Nothing more, nothing less. But bank records show that during the drive, Shiana bought baby supplies and withdrew $800 from an ATM. She said she may have used the money to pay house cleaners or buy child care products. She also said that Aaron denied killing Odin Lloyd when she asked if he did it. What's he going to say?

Oh, yeah, I did that. Of course. So I think they're trying, you can see they're trying to angle in on this. cleaning of the house. Right. That's kind of a big deal. Alexander Bradley testified on April 1st. At this time, Bradley was in custody in Connecticut, awaiting trial on unrelated gun charges. Bradley fired shots at a nightclub in Hartford in 2014. He was not allowed to testify about the 2013 shooting. Bradley testified that when he and Aaron traveled to Florida in February 2013, a man passed a gun to Aaron in their hotel room, and it looked like a Glock.

Aaron held the gun for a couple of minutes, then put it on a chair. Several other men were in the hotel room, including Oscar Hernandez, who was mentioned earlier at trial. Bradley testified that he saw a gun in a box in Aaron's basement in North Attleboro, but it was not a Glock. Defense attorney Charles Rankin tried to cast doubt on Bradley's credibility. Bradley didn't mention seeing Aaron. with a gun in Florida when he was questioned in December.

But the prosecutor pointed out that he talked about it in an earlier grand jury appearance. Rankin asked Bradley if he first mentioned seeing Oscar Hernandez in December. Bradley answered, if that's what the record shows, then yes. And said that he saw a picture of Oscar in the news and it refreshed his memory. Okay. And I'll tell you, man, the part of a trial that I really get into is number one, the evidence and what that evidence really means. But number two are, you know, the witnesses who say they saw this or they heard this.

Right. And the other side trying to break them down and badger them or, you know, poke holes in them. You know, to me, all of that stuff is fascinating. Records also showed that Bradley told investigators in December that he sold marijuana to Aaron, but in a deposition a week later. He said he had never been his provider. So he's flip-flopping. Yeah, and I think that's something as the defense team that you really want to point out.

If somebody is inconsistent with their statements, what does that mean to the jury? How much of what they say can they rely on or believe? Bradley conceded that he rejected a plea deal for his charges in September and later said in a jailhouse phone call that he hoped the deal would improve. So this was something that the defense pointed out. Right. Because I think, you know, if I'm a juror, I'm having to question his motives for the things that he's saying, is it because he's trying to get out of this other charge? And he wants this deal to be, you know, sweeter. Sweeter. Closing arguments took place on April 7th. ADA, William McCauley told the jury that Aaron planned the murder and shut. And Dot Odin Lloyd, which was the first time. They had actually named Aaron as the shooter. They argued that Aaron thought he could get away with murder

and felt like Odin had disrespected him. Well, we know he had an issue with people disrespecting him. Big time. Yeah. Defense attorney James Sulton asked the jury to consider that the shooting was a spontaneous act committed by Wallace or Ortiz. Aaron was a witness and failed to call the police. According to the Boston Globe,

Sultan told the jury, did he make all the right decisions? Did he make all the right choices? He was a 23-year-old kid who witnessed something, a shocking killing committed by somebody he knew. He really didn't know what to do. You know, I keep forgetting that he was just 23.

Yeah, only 23 years old. Yeah, I mean, because, you know, he look older. He did. Even though he did kind of have a baby face a little bit. Yeah. You know, he did look a little older. Plus, you think, you know, he's in the NFL. He's making all this money.

But yeah, he was only 23 years old. Now, does that mean that he didn't know right from wrong? Obviously, nah. I know that's not what you're saying. Yeah, he's an adult. He knows right from wrong. But you can really see what the defense is trying to do. Did the prosecution prove that Aaron was the shooter?

And they're trying to plant in the jury's mind that he wasn't a shooter. He was there. he saw it go down. And really his only crime was failing to alert the police. Yeah. The defense tried to show that investigators were sloppy. And prosecutors failed to test evidence that could undermine their theory. Sultan pointed out how detectives climbed into a dumpster,

rather than waiting for CSIs and showed the jury surveillance footage of Aaron, returning to his home with Wallace and Ortiz. He said Aaron was holding an iPad. in this footage, not a gun. When Aaron was seen with a gun minutes later, coming out of the basement, Sultan suggested he had the gun because he was scared of Wallace and Ortiz.

And that's something that you have to try to address. There is video footage of him holding a gun. Right. You got to tell the jury why you think that is. Instead of allowing the prosecution to drive that narrative. Aaron Hernandez was convicted of first degree murder on April 15th, 2015, he received a mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parole. During the sentencing hearing, Odin Lloyd's mother, Ursula Ward said that she forgave Aaron and his alleged accomplices.

She said, I forgive the hands of the people who had a hand in my son's murder either before or after. And I know I've said it before, but I am always in awe of these people who have the ability to forgive. Yeah. Someone who murdered their child. Because I'm telling you right now, I just don't know if I just don't think I could do it. I think it'd be very difficult to do that. Very difficult. On May 11, 2015, Aaron Hernandez was charged with intimidating a witness.

He was accused of shooting a witness on February 13, 2013, because the victim said something about the 2012 shooting. The man wasn't identified in Aaron's charges, but as we know, Alexander Bradley filed a lawsuit against Aaron alleging that Aaron shot him in the face on February 13th after they left a strip club in Miami. We talked about that in episode one, not too hard to kind of put those two together. Right. On May 15th, 2015, the perjury charge was dropped against Shauna Jenkins due to her testimony at trial.

on August 27th, prosecutor said in a court filing that Tanya Singleton's cancer had progressed and they would not prosecute her for accessory. She died from cancer in October 2015. So, you know, less than a couple of months after they came out and said they weren't going to a prosecutor. The lawsuit against Aaron by Alexander Bradley was settled in February 2016. The terms were not released. On May 12th, 2016,

Ernest Wallace was acquitted of murder, but convicted of accessory after the fact to murder. Wallace was sentenced to four and a half to seven years in prison, with credit four times served. But he was happy about that. He escaped a long sentence. Yeah. I mean,

you're never happy about having to go to prison, but four and a half years versus life. Big different. That is a very big difference. Prosecutor said that Wallace was motivated to help Aaron because he often slept in a guest room in Aaron's mansion. Wallace's attorney said he never contested. He was at the crime scene,

but did contest that he participated in the murder. On June 27th of that year, Carlos Ortiz pleaded guilty to be in an accessory after the fact. He told the judge that the only people who got out of the car on the night of the shooting were Aaron Hernandez and Odin Lloyd. As part of his plea deal, he would serve less than seven years. So pretty much the same deal.

Yeah. Pretty similar to what Ernest Wallace got. But it is interesting that you have these two individuals both saying, yeah, we were there. Right. And pretty much saying that it was Aaron. Yeah. Now, is that because that's the truth or is that because they were looking to save themselves? Could be.

But at the end of the day, they both got probably what they were hoping for. Opening statements in Aaron's second murder trial began on March 1st, 2017. One of Aaron's attorneys was Jose Bayez, who represented Casey Anthony at her trial. So this is the trial for the two murders of Daniel de Abraeu and Sepiro Furtado. Prosecutors argued that Aaron taunted both victims before shooting them by saying, yo, what's up now? Followed by a racial slur. The shooting occurred after Daniel bumped into Aaron and a nightclub and spilled a drink. After the shooting, Aaron and Alexander Bradley hid the vehicle and possible evidence. The defense argued that Alexander Bradley shot the two men over a drug sale.

They also told the jury that Bradley could not be trusted as a witness. Well, I can get why maybe they can't trust Bradley why they're saying that right i mean Bradley was also suing or had sued Aaron at the time you mean after he shot him in the face yeah yeah but you see a trend here and it's what you see in a lot of trials who else can we point the finger at got it's got to be somebody yeah you you want the heat off you and put it on somebody else so anybody else that says they were there well let's at least plan it in the jury's mind that how do you know it wasn't that And if I remember right, I think one of the murder victims was in law enforcement, if not both. Yeah, one was for sure.

Yeah. So I don't know if a drug cell went bad. Alexander Bradley's testimony started on March 20th, 2017. The following information comes from CNN. Bradley testified that he and Aaron were best friends, and he often gave Aaron marijuana on July 15, 2012. They went to the Boston nightclub called Cure, before. they left, Aaron took a revolver and put it under the hood of his Toyota forerunner. While at the club, Daniel Deaubrae, bumped into Aaron and spilled some of his drink on him.

Dea Breu smirked at Aaron and then laughed without apologizing. Aaron became angry. Bradley testified and knew something was brewing. He was just agitated and I just knew what would happen. They left the club and went to a bar across the street. They saw Deiabreou with his friends and they thought they were being followed. So they laughed. When they got back to the vehicle, Aaron popped the hood and took out the gun. Bradley drove around the club a few times until Aaron saw a BMW with Dea Breu and other men inside.

Aaron urged Bradley to follow. Bradley drove up next to the BMW at a red light. Aaron took out the gun and told Bradley to roll his window down and lean back. He then leaned over Bradley, stuck the gun out the window, and yelled, yo. No one reacted. So Aaron yelled yo again. Then he said, what's up now? Followed by the racial slur and fired five shots into the vehicle.

Bradley said he drove away. They were panicked and in a state of shot. Aaron told Bradley, I got one in the head and one in the chest. The two shots that killed the men. Now, this is Bradley's version of events. Right. He's testifying to this in court. One thing that really kind of jumped out at me is how loud that gun must have been in that car. I know he had it maybe a little bit out the window, but he's leaning over. I don't know how far out he was. He's essentially, according to this, firing the gun like right in front of Alexander Bradley. That would have been super loud. Bradley said that Aaron wiped the gun with his shirt, then through it and the shells out the window. he told Bradley not to tell anyone. They drove to Bradley's girlfriend's house.

Aaron watched news coverage of the shooting. Tanya Singleton then arrived and Aaron told her to take care of the forerunner. The vehicle was later found at her house. Bradley said that Aaron became very paranoid after the shooting. He didn't allow his friends to have their iPhones around him and he thought that helicopters were following him. Kind of like that one movie with Radle. Ray La Leota?

Yeah. Remember when he's making up all that... Oh, Goodfellows. You mean that one movie called Goodfellows? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Towards the end where he's making up the drugs. Yeah, and he thinks like the police were falling, but...

Because they are. They were. They really were. Yeah, that one movie called Goodfellows. Yeah. One of the best movies of all time. Right. You're a funny guy.

In February 2013, they went on a trip to... South Florida to attend a Super Bowl party. At a bar, Aaron pointed out some men. He thought, looked like police officers. Bradley told him, if they are, it's because of the stupid shit you did up in Boston. Aaron became upset and walked away. Later that night, they rode home together. There were other passengers in the vehicle, and they got into a heated argument. But Bradley fell asleep in the car. He said, when he woke up, Aaron had a gun in his face. He shot Bradley, then pulled him out of the car and left him to die. Kind of friend you don't want to have.

So there's two things here for me. Number one, obviously this guy got shot in the face. That's pretty easy to corroborate. Now, whether it was Aaron who did it, that's a little tougher. But the second thing is, if this all went down, the way that Bradley said it did, it's just another example of Aaron's kind of agitated. revenge factor short fuse short fuse paranoia i mean all that stuff at the time it happened bradley told a man who came to help him that two black men shot him he refused to cooperate with

detectives he didn't want to cooperate with the police at all because he wanted to make it even that's what he said after bradley recovered he called erin and he said Aaron seemed surprised he was still live yeah well he left him on the side of the road for dead. So a man shoot you in the face, a man that you've described as your best friend. You don't want to rat him out. Right.

And then after you recover, you call him on the phone. Like, hey, what's going on, man? Yeah, what's happening? Prosecutors presented texts between the two men. Bradley promised not to tell lawyers or the police and asked Aaron to pay him.

Aaron denied doing anything wrong, saying, I love you and you're not going to frame me for some bread. When Bradley told Aaron he was going to sue him, Aaron texted, if you ever got me in trouble or ruined my life for something I didn't do, I don't even want to get back at you, but you will pay. I mean, I get what it means, but I don't want to get back at you, but you will pay. I think it's a subtle way saying, don't do this or else. Yep. So, you know, if Aaron really did do what he's alleged to have done, pretty smart, right?

not to come out and say it in a text message. We've seen a lot of dumb criminals do something like that. But he is essentially threatening this guy. Sure he is. Aaron's tattoos were an important point made by the prosecution at trial. He had tattoos of a revolver and a tattoo of a kind of a head-on view of a gun. Next to the tattoos was the text, God forgives. Now, a lot of people have tattoos.

A lot of people have strange tattoos. Or maybe they are the only ones that know what they mean. How do you make something out of a tattoo? But I think the prosecution is trying. They're basically saying he got these tattoos because he was a shooter. Yeah. And the God forgives is right next to it. Meaning it's okay if you murder, don't worry.

God forgives you. Yeah, maybe. I kind of took it as God forgives, but I don't. I think you could look at it that way too. It's a good point too, yeah. I don't know. You know, they're so subjective tattoos. A lot of tattoos are.

You don't really know what they mean. Detective Paul McIsaac testified that investigators focused on Aaron's tattoos because of a photo of him during the February 2012 Super Bowl didn't show the tattoo of the revolver. Investigators appealed for the artist to come forward in 2014. California tattoo artist David Nelson testified that in spring 2013, Aaron asked for an image of a revolver with five bullets visible in the cylinder and one cylinder empty as well as the God forgives tattoo, as well as handgun muzzles and a spent shell casing. Authority said Aaron fired five shots from a revolver into the car.

So they are really trying to tie this tattoo. They sure are. But the timing is suspect and you can see how they would try to make a case. There's five bullets. He fired five shots. During closing arguments, prosecutor Patrick Hagan told the court that Alexander Bradley was being honest because he stuck to his story even when contradicted by some evidence.

Hagan also emphasized Aaron's tattoo saying, this is not random. This is not art. That's evidence. That is a confession. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. It's definitely going to be up to the jury.

Sure. It's how you interpret it. Prosecutors also brought up that they found the vehicle used that night hidden in Aaron's cousin's home. The murder weapon was found with a woman connected to Aaron. Cell phone experts also said that Aaron's phone was near the site of the shooting. So they had some really good evidence. Yeah, they did.

And we talked about it. about some of this in episode one, Aaron's attorney, Jose Baez, questioned Bradley's credibility and said that the immunity agreement was the deal of the century. That's the word he used. I don't know if it's a deal of the century, but he had a good deal. Well, I think if you're the defense attorney, you really want to point out to the jury that this man got a deal. So maybe you want to question why he's saying what he's saying. Anything you can do to put some doubt. in their mind. Yeah, absolutely. Baez brought up Bradley's correspondence with Aaron after the 2013 shooting. Bradley threatened to kill Aaron, bragged about his personal weapons and said he had wolves

who would help him commit acts of violence. Okay, these guys are both saying some pretty odd things to each other as air quote, best friends. Yeah, love you brother. But I will kill you. I will kill you. And wolves was in quotation mark. So I'm assuming that didn't. didn't mean actual wolves, but... Maybe what he called his posse. Oh, like that one guy from the hangover in his wolf pack? Yeah, it's wolf pack. Have one more in the wolf pack?

Baez also brought up a text Bradley sent to his lawyer in July 2013, about being charged with perjury. Bradley asked if he could be charged with perjury for telling a grand jury. The truth about not being able to recall who should. shot me. And you could see why, you know, maybe the jury would have a little bit of an issue with this guy Bradley's credibility. You know, when you say at a certain point, you don't know who shot you. At one point, he said it was two black men. Right. And then later on, you are saying it's Aaron Hernandez, but you have this deal. Yeah, the problem with not telling the

truth and not being honest right up front and changing your story, it takes credibility away. It does. It does. But does it take it all away. And that's what the jury has to, you know, has to weigh. On April 14th, 2017, Aaron Hernandez was acquitted on all charges, excluding illegal possession of a firearm. Aaron had been charged with two counts of first degree murder, three counts of attempted murder, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon, unlawful possession of a firearm, and witness intimidation. He was sentenced to fortify. years in prison for a legal possession of a firearm. So he's convicted of the murder of Odin Lloyd, but acquitted of the murders of Deiabreou and Furtado. And I'm actually not all that surprised based on what we've talked about. You know, you have Bradley who really seems as though he was the star witness.

Right. And his credibility is in question. You've got some things that don't look great. No. The cell phone information, you know, this truck is found at a relative's home. But what does it conclusively prove? And at the end of the day, the jury just did not feel as though the prosecution met their burden. Suffolk County DA Daniel Conley said that Deiabreou and Furtado's families were upset by the defense's portrayal of the victims as gangbangers and drug dealers.

He said, according to AP News, these were two hardworking, humble Cape Verdean immigrants. It was unnecessary and it was wrong and it shouldn't have been done. You know, it's something that you and I probably don't talk about enough. The defense in trying to, you know, get their client out from under their charges, a lot of times end up painting the victims. Yeah. And in a very bad light. And here, you know, this guy's saying it just wasn't true and they shouldn't have done that.

But that's what they do sometimes, right? They're trying to win. Yeah. It's all about winning. And I'm not saying that's, that makes it right, but that's the long and the short of it. They will do whatever they have to do and can do legally to try to win the case. That's what they get paid to do. I think when your life is on the line, you're not going to tell the attorney to say, hey, I don't want to go to prison.

but make sure you play nice. Yeah. You know, and don't do anything, you know, just just go out there and do the best you can within the restrictions of the law. Don't make the victims look bad. Yeah, I think as a defendant facing life in prison or possibly even the death penalty, you don't care about that. No.

You're saying save my ass, please. Yes. Conley said that they wouldn't prosecute Alexander Bradley because they believe that Aaron Hernandez was correctly charged. I don't know how they could turn around and prosecute Bradley after he was their star witness against Aaron Hernandez. His attorney would have had a field day with that. Of course. On April 19th, 2017, Aaron Hernandez was found hanged in his prison cell at the Susa Baranowski Correctional Center in Shirley, Massachusetts. WBUR obtained a statement from Christopher Fallon of the Massachusetts Department of Corrections.

It read, Mr. Hernandez hanged himself, utilizing a bed sheet that he attached to his cell window. Mr. Hernandez also attempted to block his door from the inside by jamming the door with various items. Aaron was found by officers at 305 a.m. They tried to save his life. He was transported to a hospital and was pronounced dead at 407 a.m. Newsweek reported that Aaron wrote three notes before he died. one to Sheanna, one to his daughter, and one to an inmate slash alleged prison boyfriend. Aaron put the notes next to a Bible.

The Bible was opened to John 316. Aaron also wrote this verse on his forehead and made markings with red ink on his hands and feet. Well, clearly he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison. No, I think that's pretty safe to say. after Aaron's death, Jose Baez released the statement via the Boston Herald. It read, The Family and Legal Team is shocked and surprised at the news of Aaron's death. There were no conversations or correspondence from Aaron to his family or legal team

that would have indicated anything like this was possible. Aaron was looking forward to an opportunity for a second chance to prove his innocence. Those who love and care about him are heartbroken and determined to find the truth, surrounding his untimely death. We request that authorities conduct a transparent and thorough investigation. So, you know, it sounds to me like the family and maybe the attorney, but at least through the attorney is saying, we're not sure he took his life. There might have been something else going on there.

Well, sometimes foul play does occur inside the prison. And it can be made to look like a suicide. Sure. Now, you're going to have to explain how somebody, then exited the door and jammed it from the inside. And that's going to be pretty hard to do. Not saying it's impossible, but pretty hard to do. Aaron's family asked that his brain be studied at the CTE Center at Boston University.

The state medical examiner wanted to study Aaron's brain. Jose Baez claimed in a press conference that the ME was illegally holding Aaron's brain. The DA released Aaron's brain after this press conference. Soon after Aaron's death, Newsweek and the Daily Mail released reports that Aaron Hernandez was bisexual, but didn't want people to know he had a male lover. However, according to Newsweek, Odin Lloyd knew about this. The police had even looked into the possibility that this was a motive for his murder. As we mentioned in episode one, Aaron allegedly had an intimate relationship,

with a former high school classmate. This classmate testified in front of a grand jury. Shortly before he was arrested, Aaron moved money into three accounts, one for his fiance, one for his daughter, and one for this individual. His account had more money than the accounts for his fiancee and his daughter. Well, that says a lot. It says either he really cared about this guy. Yeah.

Or he didn't want this guy to talk. I think you can look at it one of two ways. Sure. But to leave your daughter or a fraction of what you gave this man? It means something. It sure does. According to Newsweek, Aaron's alleged relationship with his former high school classmate was at the center of the Oden Lloyd investigation.

Ernest Wallace told detectives that Odin Lloyd called Aaron a smoocher, which they took as a gay slur. Ernest Wallace was also recorded telling Tanya Singleton in a jailhouse visit that he wouldn't have helped Aaron get rid of the murder weapon if he had known Aaron was a limp wrist. And that's also, you know, some type of gay slur. Yeah. On April 24th, 2017, a judge ordered that copies of Aaron's notes be turned over to his family. But the DA's office could redact information to protect the investigation. Newsweek reported on April 24th that two law enforcement sources said that Aaron tested positive for K2,

a synthetic form of marijuana, which led to a state police raid at the correctional center. Inmates told investigators that Aaron may have been high on the morning he died. You ever heard of K2? I have not besides the mountain I climbed. Yeah, me neither. I'm sure there's a lot of drugs that I've never heard of, but I'm not actually sure what synthetic marijuana is. I'm not sure either. Now, we've probably talked about K2 in a previous episode and just don't even remember. A lawyer for Kyle Kennedy, an inmate at the prison, confirmed that

his client was the recipient of one of Aaron's notes, but neither he nor his client had seen the letter. Aaron and Kennedy didn't share a cell, but Kennedy was known as Aaron's prison boyfriend. This was according to Newsweek. Kyle Kennedy was 22 years old at that time and was convicted of armed robbery. On April 25th, Aaron's lawyers formally asked the court to dismiss his first degree murder conviction under the Massachusetts legal principle abatement ab initio, which stated that if a person had not exhausted all their appeals when they died, their conviction can be vacated. Okay. Yeah, I never heard of that. According to CBS Sports, and a statement on April 25th.

Jose Baez said, rumors of letters to a gay lover in or out of prison are false. These are malicious leaks used to tarnish someone who's dead. The DA's office would not confirm the addressee of the third letter. At a press conference on April 26th, the attorney for Kyle Kennedy said that

Aaron knew Kennedy before he went to prison and that Aaron wrote a note hinting at suicidal thoughts three weeks before his death. The note said, I think I'm going to hang it up, L.O.L. According to Newsweek, Kennedy's attorney Lawrence Army did not deny that multiple law enforcement sources characterized Kennedy as Aaron's prison boyfriend, Army confirmed that the two men requested to share a cell.

He did say that he was not at liberty to discuss the nature of the relationship and that his client would talk about it himself. Army said the two men knew each other through correspondence before Kennedy went to prison. He said their relationship was well known and discussed in letters between them, some of which were coded. Hernandez also sent letters to Kennedy's father and siblings. Well, if anything, they were friends, it sounds like. Yeah, yeah.

Friends at least, maybe something more. I don't know, but does it really matter? Not really. In the grand scheme of things, unless the motive for the murder or one of the motives for the murder was that Oden Lloyd knew this about Aaron and Aaron was afraid he was going to tell someone. Right. That's the only reason that it's even relevant and that we're bringing it up.

On May 9th, 2017, a judge ruled that Aaron's murder conviction could be erased because he died before his appeal was heard, Judge Susan Garsh said she was compelled to follow the legal doctrine. The prosecution argued that Aaron should not be able to accomplish in death, what he could not accomplish in life. This according to the LA Times. But Aaron's appellate attorney told the judge that the highest court in the state applied the doctrine without exception, even in suicide cases. The prosecution appealed this decision. How do you feel about this? How do you feel about this? that. I mean, the law was the law, if that's what the law states. No, I'm asking you how you feel about the law. I don't think it's a great law. I don't either. I don't either. I don't feel as though

you should automatically have your murder conviction quashed because you die. Now, I get it, you haven't exhausted all your appeals. Right. But to just do it automatically, I mean, what are you saying to the family of the victim or victims that now no one is responsible for the murder? Yeah, how's that work? Even though a jury convict this man? Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure I'm crazy about that. In May 2017, Cheyana Jenkins interview with Dr. Phil was aired on TV. She denied rumors that Aaron was gay. She said that defense lawyers told her about these rumors. she asked Aaron if it was true and he said no. She said, I had no indication or any feeling that he was gay.

He was very much a man to me. I don't know where this came from. She indicated that Aaron was concerned about rumors while in prison, but she didn't know if he thought it would be made public. She also said that she didn't believe Aaron ended his own life. There were peculiarities in his note to her, and the handwriting was similar to Aaron's handbook. handwriting, but she felt like it could be easily duplicated.

I think there's going to be conspiracy theories. There always is. Yeah. They're always, especially when someone famous dies. Exactly. You always have someone, you know, who has a conspiracy theory. But here's, you know, someone in his life. I get it.

They, you know, most people don't want to believe that this person that they knew they loved would end their life. It has to be something else to it. Sheana said that there was no letter for Kyle Kennedy and that one of the letters was addressed to Aaron's lawyers. She also said that she had never heard of Kennedy and didn't know who he was. So, you know, I don't know what you make of all that. If Aaron was bisexual, is it inconceivable that that's a part of his life that he hid from her? Oh, absolutely.

He could have hit it from her. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something that a lot of people might do. You know, and you talked earlier about Cheyenne and her sister. According to the Daily Mail, she lost her relationship with her younger sister, Sheena, because she continued to support Aaron.

She also took Aaron's last name, despite the fact that they never got married. Well, I can see the sister being really upset. Hey, the jury found him guilty. How can you stand by him at this point? Aren't you supporting me? Tough. Yeah.

Tough. I see both sides. of it, but I definitely see the sister's point of view. Now, I think Shiana doesn't believe he's guilty. No, she didn't look, yeah. So that's, you know, that's part of it. That's part of the reason why she's standing by him. In 2020, a source told people that even though Aaron was attracted to men, his relationship with Shiana was genuine and he thought of her as his soulmate. She previously said she was unaware of Aaron's sexuality, but the source said they believed she knew he was attracted to men, but she was still devoted to him.

I think she was extremely devoted to him. Well, and a person could be easily. Yeah. They could absolutely know that their partner is either bisexual or even attracted to the same sex and it'd be okay with them. Or they still, you know, stay in the relationship and it continues to go. So none of that would surprise me. In September 2017, media outlets reported that,

Aaron had a severe case of chronic traumatic encephalopathy or CT. A posthumous exam showed that Aaron's brain had so much damage that it was similar to football players in their 60s. Aaron was only 27 years old when he died and he hadn't played football in a few years. A lawyer for Aaron's family said in their announcement that it was the most severe case they had ever seen in someone of Aaron's age. He hit hard. He was hit hard.

You know, so he, I mean, that's the kind of game he played. So he took that abuse and these scans are showing that. And it affected his brain for sure. According to researchers at Boston University, CTE has been found in over 100 former NFL players. And I think I talked about it in the last episode, but there have been a number of high profile. NFL players who after retirement have taken their own lives. And it's later come out that they had

CT. And the thought is that, you know, it had something to do with the way they were feeling and them ultimately ending their life. Yeah. Aaron's estate filed a lawsuit against the NFL and the Patriots seeking damages for Aaron's daughter for the loss of her father. The suit alleged that the NFL and team didn't do enough to protect Aaron from repeated head hits. Even if they win that, I'm not sure how Odin's family would respond to that. I think they would want to sue the estate for that money. For that money for damages for what occurred to him. Yeah.

Dr. Anne McKee, who directs research on CT at Boston University, announced her findings at a medical conference in November 2017. team. She said that Aaron had stage three, CTE, and her team had never seen such severe damage in a brain younger than age 46. So this is really saying something. Yeah. He was like half that age, probably when he suffered that. I know he's 27 when he died, but he was 23 kind of in the prime and probably had already suffered that damage. According to the Boston Globe, Biquet said, we can't take the pathology and explain the behavior, but we can say collectively that individuals with CTE of this severity have difficulty with impulse control, decision making, aggression,

often emotional volatility, enrage behavior. I think now most people believe that this is a very real thing and it impacts the players. I think, you know, regarding the lawsuit, I think if I was the NFL, or in the New England Patriots, I could easily say, look, he might have had that damage before he ever came to us. I don't know how you can put that solely on us.

This could have happened when he was in high school. Could have happened when he was in college. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I get what you're saying. But that's not the first lawsuit against the NFL. No, not at all. For, you know, this type of thing. It won't be the last.

It won't be the last either. According to the New York Times, Aaron's brain appeared normal when the researchers first looked at it, but when they cut it into half-inch sections, they found brain atrophy and frontal lobe damage. We've talked about frontal lobe damage quite a bit. Sure we have on TCAT. Now, it's not normally from football-related injuries,

but it is head trauma, accidents, or, you know, things of that sort. McKee also said that Aaron was born with a genetic marker associated with neurodegenerative diseases, which could have contributed to the CTE. Which might explain why it was more rapid in him than most people his age. Yeah, why they'd never seen it so bad and somebody so young. On March 13th, 2019, Aaron's murder conviction was reinstated by the Supreme Judicial Court in Massachusetts. The court found the rule that erased the conviction to be outdated and no longer consonant

with the circumstances of contemporary life, according to LA Times, the court ordered that the practice be abolished for future cases. And, you know, I have to agree with that. I think you and I both had an issue. We did with that just being across the board, not even case by case. It was just kind of unilaterally done. In February 2019, a federal judge dismissed the suit brought by Aaron's family, again. against the NFL, they were seeking $20 million in damages. The U.S. District Judge was overseeing the class action settlement aimed at compensating former NFL players for concussion-related brain injuries.

The plaintiff argued that the lawsuit should be allowed to proceed outside the class action settlement, but the judge rejected that argument. In July 2019, the wrongful death lawsuit brought by the families of Deiabreou and for Tato, was settled. The terms were not disclosed. Aaron's estate also settled with Odin Lloyd's family. And, you know, I always find that interesting when a person is acquitted of a murder, but yet they end up, let's say, in a civil trial being found guilty. Right. In having to, you know, pay out to the family. You know, OJ. Sure. Comes to mind. That's probably the most famous one. Right. But it does happen, especially with people who are celebrities or who have a lot of money.

But as we wrap up, you know, this case on Aaron Hernandez, it definitely was a case that captured national attention for a number of reasons. First and foremost, he was a talented NFL player. Of course. Who, you know, was kind of in the prime peak of his career. He was wealthy. He was famous.

Anything of this magnitude that happens to somebody like that is going to draw a lot of news coverage and attention. I think a lot of people when they look at Aaron Hernandez, they think of someone who thought that they were above the law, that because they had the connections, they had the money, they could kind of do what they wanted and people would insulate them or they could keep themselves out of trouble.

Sure. And if you look at him, you can try to make a case that, didn't have the best childhood, you know, depending on what side of the story you believe with his dad and how his dad raised him. Yeah. You know, you can look at the injury to his brain.

Did that have an impact as he got older? And you also have to look at the fact that he received a lot of money at a very young age. And like you said, a lot of people believed that he felt he was above the law. He was above the law, above anything, because he felt like, I had the power, I have the money. I'm all powerful.

Yeah. What are you going to do to me? Yeah, I get it. I mean, you know, one of the key things to this case for me is really the CTE. Yeah. There's no doubt he had it. It sounds like he had, you know, one of the most severe cases that people had seen, especially in a person his age.

You just wonder how much that contributed to, you know, his impulsiveness, his rage, his anger, and then in turn, did it have something to do with him killing Odin Lloyd and possibly killing the other two people? He wasn't convicted of it, but. Yeah, you take all that and go back to the power thing, right? Growing up. Combined it all together. Yeah, because growing up, what happened to him? Every time he got in trouble, he got off because of who he was. We did talk about that in episode one. Yeah. So there could be a combination of factors, but, but it's hard not to think that the CTE played into it in some way. I don't know how much.

But somehow. But somehow, somehow, somewhat. But that's it for our episode on Aaron Hernandez. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, guys. This is Chuck from Missouri.

And I just got done listening to the Aaron Hernandez part one. And, you know, you guys were talking about the Pops de Rossi. He can so eloquently put that. You know, they bother these celebrities so much. I don't know if you guys knew this, but Daniel Radcliffe from the Harry Potter series once wore the same outfit for over a month every day so their pictures would be useless.

So, you know, every day he wore that same outfit, they come out to take pictures, and they were like, oh, my God, this dude's wearing the same thing he had on yesterday the day before, whatever. So any pictures that they took within that 30-day time period, you know, everybody would just think they were from whatever, you know, a month ago.

So that ended up not buying the paparazzi photos because he was still wearing the same outfit. And I just thought that was genius. So you guys take care, keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking. You know who started that? Me, I wear the same outfit when we do the Patreon videos.

So often that you had his tell me once or twice or maybe more than that, hey, Gibbs, can you wear something different, please? Yeah, that did happen. Now, I wear the same type of sure the same because that's all I own but they're different colors. Yeah. So um that's pretty smart though if you think about it. It is. I've always said, you know, I'd love to be rich, but I would never want to be famous. I would never want to not be able to walk in a store or just walk down the street,

go to a restaurant. Yeah. And not have people gawking or taking pictures or, you know, how do you say it? Popsar, Pops. Popsar Ross. Paparata. Jumping out of bushes to, you know, snap a picture. I would never want that. I would not want to be the guy that jumped out of a bush at you, taking a picture, you know? No, because I swing. It's not going to be good.

So my daughter came, she came into my bedroom one morning. This was like three weeks ago to wake me up because I had to take her somewhere. And she said that when she tapped me, I got, I took a swing. at her in my sleeve. I still was asleep. Oh, yeah. I believe that. Yeah. She's like, Dad, he took a swing at me. I was like, it wasn't me. I know that one time we had to share a bed at CrimeCon for one night.

Yeah, that was bad. Yeah, you, uh, I didn't sleep a wink. The things to me I can't even talk about. Oh, Mike and Gibney. My name is Lisa Armour. I do believe you pronounce that just a little wrong when you call me out on Patreon a couple months ago. It was Lizza. However, I'll let it slide. look a little weird when it's spelled.

However, you did get the last name right, and that was awesome. So I just received a little gift in the mail, and I am stoked, something I was not expecting, a T-Cat mug, and I am over-the-moon excited. I want to say thank you for that. I appreciate it very much. Also, let you guys know how much you helped me through the last couple years. I just started binging about a year ago, and I'm one of those that has to start at the beginning before I can get to the end.

So I have finished all of T-CAT. I am in January of 2023. of Unsolved and I cannot wait to get to criminology. You guys are awesome. I just want you to know that and truly appreciate all the hard work and dedication you do to these and the respect you have

for the families and the victims of the series that you do. I do have a couple suggestions that I will email. They actually hit very close to home for me, family truly. And I think one would be really great for T-Cat. The other would be good for T-Solved. So again, thank you guys.

for all that you do, hey, keep your head on swivel and you're on time ticking. Have a good one. Oh, and I'm from Kentucky, by the way. Go cards, not cats. Keep that in mind. I'm team team T-Cat. Thanks, guys. Well, that's awesome. That is awesome. The Cardinals almost went over this last year. They were horrible. They were bad. Historically bad for them. They're usually really, really good. But, you know, it's funny because some people who sign up for Patreon don't even realize that there are things that sent to them for certain tiers. For certain levels. So they're like shocked when they get it in the in the mail, even though it says it when you sign up, they just probably don't see it. I can't believe you got her name wrong.

Yeah, it's shocking that that either you or I would be you would get a name. I wouldn't have got it wrong. You know me. I was spot on, man. All right, we had no mail bag. So that's it, buddy, for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and give me, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.