True Crime All The Time - Aaron Needle and Samuel Sheinbein

Episode Date: February 24, 2020

In 1997, 17-year-olds friends Aaron Needle and Samuel Sheinbein were looking for someone to kill. They settled on a 19-year-old acquaintance named Freddy Tello Jr. Prosecutors would later claim that this murder was practice for the pair and that their main target was a romantic rival of one of the boys. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the strange and twisted case of Needle and Sheinbein. It's a case that involves a horrific murder and plans for at least one other, all formed in the minds of these two boys. But neither of them would see the inside of a U.S. courtroom, each for different reasons. The flight of one of the boys would set off a firestorm between the United States and Israel over his fate.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 171 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. I'm really good.

My stomach is full. Oh, me and I just had some good barbecue. We did, man. And a lot of it too. My plate was full. Maybe a little much. I gave you a lot. My plate is now empty.

And you have your brand new Yeti. Yeah. T-Cat on one side. gibby on the other water cup so it's impressive it's right here man people can't see it and it's in my favorite color you can't on patreon you can see it on the video yeah you said i can use it today and then have to return it is not what i said i bought it for you hey why is the gibby part coming off it's not coming off it will never come off it is rocks out yeah all right buddy we have some new patreon supporter so let's do our shoutouts we had michdonald hey how's the farm renay

Carmelinsky. Ooh, Kamalinski. Amber Scott. Hey, Amber. Joe Luskey. What's going on, Joe? Jillian Nemis. What's going on, Jillian?

Amy Fisher. Hey, thanks, Amy. Lori Holes. What's going on, Lori? Carrie Gladney jumped out at our highest level. Sounds Irish. Could be. Yeah.

Christy Cornwell. Hey, Christy. Renna Jackson. What's going on, Renna? Virginia Newman. Hey, Virginia. John Smith. Thanks, John.

Christy Vaugh. Hey, Christy. Mark. What's going on, Mark? Lori Kikendahl. Kikindul. Anne Farr. Hey, Ann.

Robin. What's it going on, Robin? Denise Schmidt. Hey, Denise. Michelle Cahoon. She's got some Cajunas. She might have. Libby Pearl.

Hey, Libby. Gabrielle McCredden. What's going on, McCredden? Jessica Clark. Hey, thanks, Jessica. And Angie Howard. Hey, Angie. So we appreciate all that brand new support.

And then if we go back into the Volk Gibbs, this week, we selected Jessica Coopmans. I think it's. Pupments. You think it is? It's like an angry. You say, you have to say it in a very angry tone. Yes. So we appreciate that.

She's been with us a long time. We appreciate all the long term support. We had some great PayPal donations as well. Fashionable art. Hey, that's better than unfashionable. It is. Yeah. It's a good name.

Michelle Slocum. Hey, Slocom. Julie Shant. Hey, Julie. And Sue Raglan. What's going on, Sue? So much appreciated. Gibbs, we had some great feedback from last

week's episode, the Shana Huber's story, the murder of Ryan Poston. Yeah, wow, what a great episode. I liked it. You know, it was, again, it was one that I knew I wanted to do for quite a while. I don't know why I pick some over others and I delay some, but it just, the timing has to be right. And sometimes I feel like they are and sometimes I feel like they're not. I know they come to you. You sit in your yoga pose. Like an oracle. And they just come to you. And you're like, yes, Now is the time. Now is the time. Not quite.

It's somewhere between that and throwing darts blindfolded at the wall. Somewhere in between. It's better than throwing them out of my head. Like you do that occasional times. I would never do that. This is coming from a guy that just bought you a personalized Yeti. Why would I throw darts at your head? But look at behind me.

Just because there's a bunch of darts in the wall, it doesn't mean that those came from me. Or that you were here when those darts were through. Correct. You could easily find another person with that nickname. But would they be Gibby? Nobody's going to be. No, they would not. So we have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved.

We're talking about the murder of Christelan Gerard. Her mother, Lynn DeJack. Yeah. Was suspected, arrested, ultimately convicted of Crystalyn's murder. she spent a long time in prison. Almost 14 years. And then that case kind of unravels. And then we get into, okay, it wasn't her.

Who was it? Yeah. And it's a strange case because it's one of those where most people believe, or I should say a lot of people, believe they know who it was, but there's a reason why they cannot go after this person. Right. And we'll get into all of that.

Definitely check it out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get in this? into this episode of true crime all the time. Yeah, I'm excited, man. All right. So we have a very interesting case lined up for everyone. Gibbs, we're headed to Maryland.

Hey, you know what you like in Maryland? Some crabs. I love crabs. Yeah. That came out wrong, but you know what I mean. Well, yeah, okay. But we're talking about two teenagers, Aaron Needle and Samuel Shinebine,

who killed another teenager, named Alfredo Teo. Now, Gibbs, we know there's no good reason for any cold-blooded murder, but the reason for this one, I think, will blow some people away. Yeah. It's also a case where both murderers tried everything they could to keep from facing the justice they deserved. And that led to rising tensions between two nations over this case.

there's a lot going on here. Yes, it's not a, I don't want to use the word typical. I think that's not a bad word. It's not a typical TCAT episode. Right. It is going to be a little different. The other thing that's very odd about this case as opposed to most that you and I cover is that there's no trial in the United States.

Yeah, which is frustrating. For either one of these teenagers, for reasons that we'll talk about. So because of that. you know, much of the information about the crime comes from the evidence that police collected, the theories that prosecutors came up with, and what they would have presented had it gone to trial or two separate trials. Well, luckily, I could perform a little translation. Sure.

We always have that option. Yeah, yeah. Because of that Rosetta Stone. Good stuff. I mean, you finish one in, what, two days, you're on to the next language. How many languages are you up to now? I got them, like, uh, I got them. I got them.

Yeah, we probably need to go back to the English. Is there an English one? Let's brush up on that one. Early childhood English. And then you can go on to your 18th Rosetta stuff. Yeah. So Aaron Needle and Samuel Scheinbach. They had been friends since they were kids.

They were the same age. They both came from a. upper middle class Jewish families. And they met when they were younger and they both attended the same Jewish day school in Rockville, Maryland. But these two would go on to form a combustible pair. They had a hard time staying out of trouble. And both were eventually expelled from the private Jewish school they attended. They had some similarities, but they also had some differences. They differed in a number of ways. Aaron Needle had trouble in school.

He was not a good student. His parents sent him to a military-type reform school in 1995 in the hopes that it would straighten him out. Well, you know, we've had conversations about those reform schools and military schools and things like that. You know, I had a buddy that went to reform school. It did not reform him. Actually, work in the opposite direction. Yeah. Now, I do know there are a lot of stories of kids going to a military type school and embracing the discipline, really, you know, getting into that aspect of it and coming out much better.

Yeah. So I think it's hit or miss. It probably depends a lot on the kid and what they're hoping to achieve. Obviously, if you go into anything with a horrible attitude. That's true. Not going to get much out of it. But if you go into it with a, yeah, I'd like to get my life on the right path, it probably helps out.

Yeah. There you go. That's a good point. Aaron drank. He smoked a lot of pot. And, you know, his parents were worried that he was getting close to harming himself. But the other thing about Aaron is that it was obvious to many people around him that he had what appeared to be some type of mental illness.

You know, some of this would come out later when classmates came forward to say that they had seen some signs over the years that led them to believe Aaron Needle was schizophrenic. Now, these aren't real diagnoses, right? These are classmates, kind of telling other people the types of behaviors they saw. Right. and maybe people were making that assumption. Aaron's parents ran a computer business out of their home. And Aaron allegedly told friends that he believed his mother was way too strict.

And because they ran this business from the home, they were always there. It was like he could not get away from his parents and this blanket of strictness. That would be tough. you know, growing up in an environment where the level was set probably fairly high. Yeah, I believe it was. Yeah, that from the time you woke up, they were there. So you'd never had that opportunity to just kind of be your... Be yourself, slack off, let loose.

No, because mom's always there and she wants you to do this, this, and this. Right. You know, they were also an extremely religious family. Aaron, his parents, and his two younger sisters, they lived pretty close to their Orthodox synagogue close enough that they would regularly walk to services. Aaron attended a number of schools after being expelled from the private Jewish school, but he pretty much had problems at every stop. That problem would lead to having to go to another school.

The next problem would lead to another school until eventually he decided to drop out. Well, as you go from one school to the next school, you know, those records carry with you. So I'm assuming that a lot of the administrators seen that coming in and automatically made the assumption that he was probably a bad kid. And that probably didn't help him get to a fresh start. And I would say on top of that, whatever your behavior was that caused you to have problems. Right. You're probably carrying that on to the next place. It's not like you're going to completely change.

No, no. And so that behavior follows you and it causes problems at the next stop as well. Yeah, until someone helps you change your attitude and your behavior, you know, it's going to stick. Now, Samuel Shinebine's academic life went much differently. Yeah, he got expelled, just like Aaron in grade school. But Samuel eventually transferred to the John F. Kennedy Public School. And he shined. He was very intelligent, got good grades, and had plans to go on to college. But like Aaron, Sam had been sent to a military-style boot camp. He just went for a slightly different reason. When he was 14, 15 years old, he caught a charge for theft and burglary. And it was a court mandate that he attend this reform slash military style boot camp. I mentioned it. I think these were both

good families, right? Upper middle class. They had some money. They had their faith. They had their values. Sam's father was a patent attorney. Pretty nice position. Yeah, who probably made pretty good money. Right. His mother was a stay at home mom. Sure. So on the surface to pretty good Jewish families. Yeah. But they're both raising a son who has their own problems. I think at some point, and probably pretty early on, it was recognized by both families that, you know what, these kids weren't good for each other.

They are like oil and water, right? They don't mix. Or they're like fire and oxygen and they're feeding each other. Exactly. I mean, we all have that friend that you really like being around, but. Can talk you into doing some stuff that you know you're not supposed to be doing. Exactly. Yeah, we've all had that friend.

Yeah, we know who that is. I'm looking at that person right now. I know. Same here. But there was something that had drawn them together and there was something that had kept them together as friends over the years. There's going to be something that's going to draw them together as murder. But I think as much as the family thought, all right, these kids are not great for each other, there's no way that they could have imagined that either one of their sons could be responsible for a murder or anything like it. No, I don't think they ever, ever seen what was coming.

So next up, we're going to talk about Alfredo Teo Jr. He went by Freddie. Freddie came from a divorced family. And he had lived with his mother since he was just a few years old. I think she was from Costa Rica, if I remember correctly. Okay. So they immigrated from Costa Rica, was trying to, you know, make a good life for herself and ultimately her children in the United States.

The thing about Freddie was that he was a very popular kid growing up. He was popular in high school, but he didn't like it. And he dropped out of school in December of 1996, never graduated. He was described as a very easy person to get along with. One former classmate was quoted to saying, Freddie was the type of kid if he met you. Five minutes later, he's your friend for life. Yeah. What with a name like Alfredo and Freddie?

I mean, it's a fun name. It's fun. Yeah. So you're saying everybody. with that name is must be jovial, must be easy to get along with. They should be. If not, they should change their name. But like Needle and Shineby, Freddie Teo had been in trouble with the law.

He pleaded guilty in July 1997 to possession of marijuana and drug paraphernalia. And classmates came out later, Gibbs and said that Freddie was part of a group of kids who were known to sell weed at the school. If you wanted weed, this is where you went. You saw Freddie. Or this group. But he was part of that group, according to classmates. Hey, now you just go into the storefront and get you some weed.

Legally. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, these same classmates, they said, you know, Freddie wasn't what most people thought of as a hardened criminal. He wasn't a street thug, right? Yeah, he sold weed, but he wasn't going to. hurt anyone or commit, you know, a violent act or anything like that. Right. He was, though,

throughout the years said to have been pretty tough to raise for his single mother. She said that. She confided in her ex-brother-in-law that, you know, at certain times, she had a lot of trouble with Freddie. And her theory and what she said was that he was acting out because he wanted attention. Well, maybe that's true. It happens. But he's probably, also acting out somewhat because young, if you're moving some product, man, you're making some money. You kind of get a little attitude when you make money at a young age, you know, because you don't need mom or dad's money. Like Henry Hill and, uh, yeah, Goodfellows. Exactly. And that's some good spaghetti sauce in that movie. Did you taste it? Were you on set?

It just looked good. They're taking that little razor blade. I saw it. Yeah. I want some of that gravy, or whatever they call it. Now, the relationship. The relationship between Aaron Needle, Samuel Shinebine, and Freddie Teo, it's a little murky. I believe Gibbs, it was Aaron, who initially met Freddie sometime in 1996. But it really seems like they started hanging out more frequently sometime during the summer of 1997. Aaron had an aquarium at his house and Freddie just happened to get a job at a Rockville store. that sold fish in aquariums. Hey man, I had an aquarium.

I had a couple aquariums. Did you? Had piranhas in one. That was a lot of fun. And then, you know, you're a triple cool. Triple cool? Your typical, um, Amazon river fish. You know, I had a couple of those, you know, with the big jack fish and the

sicklets and all that kind of stuff and one tank and the alligator gars. And then the other take, I had the piranhas. That's pretty cool. It was fun. You take the, buy the beef heart, slice it up, free. them and every now and just drop a piece in and the piranhas go wild. You're a sick man. I don't know.

I had an aquarium too. You know what I had? What did you have? Goldfish. Just like regular fish. You probably did. You probably had to get those cute little goldfish or those little angel fish. Yeah, just little cute things.

I wasn't waiting into the Amazon to find some meat eaters. Well, every now and then as a treat for the piranhas, you go ahead and just get yourself a dozen goldfish and drop those in. Again, you're mean. I know. They would, hey, they would ate your goldfish. They would have. Yeah.

Some of Freddie's coworkers later commented that Aaron started coming in a lot to the store and he would just hang out. Talk to Freddie. Sometimes he would wait until Freddie's shift was over. They would go do something. But prosecutors later described a relationship as one that really benefited both parties. Aaron saw in Freddie a popular kid who had friends could score weed, which is probably a big one. Pretty huge, I think. We know that Aaron smoke and drank.

Right. But also, Freddie was a guy that could introduce him to people. Freddie saw in Aaron a guy with a nice Honda accord that apparently Aaron let him drive around town. Hey, you know, you got that nice Honda accord. Zoom, Zoom, man. Zoom, Zoom. Yeah. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break to talk about Thread Up.

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So stop spending hours at the racks. You can customize your search on Thread Up by your size, style, and budget. You can find the best deals in the same. They make it very easy. Everything is in high quality condition and they have tons of items with the tags still on. We have an exclusive offer just for you. Get an extra 30% off your first order at threadup.com slash teacat. That's t-h-r-ed-u-p-up.com slash teacat for 30% off your first order. Threadup.com slash teacat for an extra 30% off today. Terms apply. So all of this brings us up to September. of 1997. Aaron Needle is 17 years old, as is Samuel Shinebine. Sam's about ready to start his senior year of high school. Freddie's 19 years old, living with his mother, he's working. Of the three, Sam is the only one attending school at this point. On September 15th, Freddie took a big step. He moved out of his mother's house into an apartment, but Gibbs authorities,

believe that it was the very next day that Freddie Teo was killed. His burned and dismembered body was found on the morning of September 19th by a real estate agent. You and I have talked over the years. Yeah. Some of it having to do with previous jobs, working with real estate agents. Man, they find some strange things. They do. Especially, you know, in situations where a house has not been lived in. A house has gone through foreclosure. Yeah. You never know what you're going to find in there.

Squatters in there or dead people. Dead people. Hey, we've, you know, in your previous line of work, you know, we did have somebody that did find a dead body in a property. And, uh, but other things, too, just bizarre. You know, I had a, uh, buddy that rented a, uh, Airbnb and they were staying in this, uh, a fairly nice property. And their kids were messing around upstairs,

and they pushed on a panel, and the panel door, it was like a panel door, it opened up to like a secret room. Was it a sex dungeon? No, no. I thought the story was going to get real interesting. But it had a safe in there,

and the kids just played around with it. Somehow, one of them was thought, let me look over here. They looked behind another door. door and in writing it had this combination. It actually worked. They pop it open. There was like $50,000 in cash in there. So these are like little Mike Gibson slash McGivers. Yeah. Who figured all this out. Yeah. Did they take the cash? Or? The dad called the Airbnb representative said that they would come get it and make sure it got where it

needed to be. And he said, no, you have the homeowner call me and I'll make sure that they get the money. I always feel like in a scenario like that, if somebody's gone to that trouble, they built a hidden room. Yeah. With a safe and they have a bunch of cash in there. They're probably not the type of people that you want to steal from. They're probably the kind that would, you know, travel the ends of the earth, sick of Liam Neeson on you, something like that. I would have just put the money back, sealed it all back up. Like I was never, never, I was never there.

I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't break that panel open. I don't know. It was interesting, though. Your stories always are. I know. So the agent finds the body of Freddie Teo. Obviously, the agent doesn't know this.

It's going to turn out later to be Freddie. Police were called. And, you know, from their things proceeded pretty quickly. Now, I will say this was an extremely horrific murder. Teo had been bludgeoned and stabbed. Gibbs his arms and legs had been cut off. And then he was burned. And what authorities theorized was some type of attempt to cremate the body.

Yeah. It seems extreme. I mean, look, you already murdered the guy. Now you're going to dismember him. Well, we know it's no secret that it's two 17-year-olds that killed this boy, right? We said it right up front. Right. So when you're thinking about the mind of a 17 year old, are these master criminals?

Oh. As far as we know, they've never done anything like this. So what are they doing? Are they experimenting with things that they've seen on TV? First, they think, okay, we'll dismember the body and we'll get rid of it that way. Well, maybe they find out that it's not as easy as people make it look on TV. Never is. Maybe they got to the arms and legs. and figured out, we don't know what else to do from here. Right. Then you try to burn a body.

Yeah. You cannot burn a body the same way that they do at a crematorium. No. You can't produce enough heat. No. To do what has to happen. So. Yeah.

I mean, you're going to leave something behind. Yes. I mean, that furnace, that oven that they use is, I don't even know. I mean, into the thousands, right, probably degrees Fahrenheit. We'll get into it a little bit later, right? More details about the murder because, like I said, it really comes from prosecutors putting together their case against needle and shine by. But the one thing they did find pretty quickly, they found droplets of blood leading

from this garage of this vacant house. back towards the Shinebine residence. That's a major mistake. That's not good. You don't want to leave a Hansel and Gretel type trail for the police to figure out where you are. So that same day, the police go to talk with Samuel's parents and they have a search warrant in hand. They found a lot of incriminating evidence inside both the vacant garage where the body was located and inside the Shinebine's garage.

The other thing that police learned from Sam's parents was that he was gone. And according to them, they didn't know where he was. They also found out that Aaron Needle was gone as well. What really happened was the two had taken off sometime after the murder and they made their way to New York City. The other thing police didn't know because the parents didn't. tell them was that both Aaron and Samuel had been in contact with their families in Maryland. Sam called his brother a few days after the murder.

And he tried to explain what happened. He said that he and Aaron had killed Teo, but it was only because Teo had tried to rob them at gunpoint. So they were in the car together. And all of a sudden, Freddie decided that he was going to. to pull a gun and try to rob these two kids. Okay. They somehow got the better of him and they killed him. Why not stop right there, right?

Well, hey. Harder to explain that part. Yeah. Got scared, tried to dismember him. Then we tried to burn him. Yeah, I mean, I don't know the exact particulars of the conversation, but. I'm just saying once he pulled the gun and you got the better of him, why not just stop there?

Why go any further with the body or anything? Because it didn't happen. Yeah, I know. I mean, as a brother, if I was his brother, listens, I'd be like, why, why did you do what you did? I get you. But I mean, I think, you know, you start down a story. And some of those stories, the questions that arise from the stories, they're hard to answer because obviously, if it didn't happen that way, the proof's going to come out. Sure. And it, and it would in this case as well. But both boys asked their parents for help. You know, they had, they had killed a boy and they didn't want to get in trouble. Now, they weren't

telling their parents, I don't think exactly how this murder happened or why it happened. Right. They were, they were putting on a story. Samuel's family came through big time. They pretty much Gibbs gave him everything he needed to flee the country to Israel, where his grandmother lived. I mean, we're talking money, his passport, which obviously he would have had to have had. Right.

They made sure it got to him. and he left the country. Aaron's family sent him money for a train ticket. That was it. They were like, no. There's your ticket for your train. Yeah. And he ultimately did return to Maryland and turned himself into police on September 24th.

But this is where things start to get very strange because Sam Shinebine would never set foot on American soil again. So it didn't take long, right, for police to figure out. who they believed killed Freddie Teo. That happened pretty quickly. Both needle and shine buying were charged with first degree murder. What police were not able to figure out quickly was the motive. Why would two 17-year-olds kill this 19-year-old that they knew? Right.

That one of them knew pretty well and, you know, hung out with quite a bit. Just didn't make any sense. No, I mean, you know, was it an argument? Was it a drug deal gone? bad. Was it a robbery? They didn't know. But they did find some things out early on during the investigation. A witness came forward and said they saw Aaron and Sam struggling to push some type of cart that was covered with the blue tarp between the Shinebine house and the vacant house where Freddie's body was found. The witness said they saw the pair later walking back. No,

No card. Seems odd. It seems extremely odd. And you can tell, right, if somebody's struggling to push something, what's that mean? Got some weight behind it's got something in it that is pretty heavy. Now, Sam initially agreed to return to Maryland, but apparently he changed his mind. He tried to end his life by taking a bunch of pills. It didn't work. He lived. Israeli police arrested him and he was put in a psychiatric facility for evaluation. Under Israeli law at that time, citizens of Israel could not be extradited. Didn't matter what they did. Israel would not give them up to another country.

Now, Sam was not an Israeli citizen or was he. That was really the big question early on. Yes. For the Israeli government, for Israeli courts. And, you know, they waffled back and forth for a long period of time. Sam's grandmother lived in Israel. Obviously, she was an Israeli citizen. His father had dual citizenship in Israel in the United States.

His father, Saul, left for the U.S. when he was six years old. Israel went back and forth. They said Sam could not be considered an Israeli citizen. Then they would go in the, I don't know. opposite direction and say, okay, because of his father, he should be. And therefore, we cannot extradite him. And the thing that I found very interesting was that there were people or factions within Israel that really differed. You had the courts who were trying to decide this from a legal standpoint. Then you had like Israeli government officials. They wanted to send this kid back because number one,

They didn't want to piss off the United States. Sure. Israel at the time was getting a ton of aid from the United States. And they didn't want the hassle and they didn't want the expense. Because if they don't send him back, then they have to put him on trial, which means they have to fly people from the United States over. Right. To have a fair trial.

It's expensive. And it was a very strange situation. And it really set off a firestorm in the relations between the U.S. and Israel. Obviously, the U.S. wanted this kid back so they could prosecute him for a murder that they believed he committed on U.S. soil. Within a month of the murder, you had lawmakers in the U.S. threatening to hold back aid dollars that were earmarked for Israel. They said, hey, if you don't send him back, you're not getting. getting this money. Well, that works sometimes, you know, when you put that type of pressure on. Yeah. It didn't work here. Now, I don't believe they ever actually withheld billions of dollars

in aid. Right. I read where they withheld maybe 75 million. That's a big difference between billions. It is. Still a lot of money, but, but Israel, they wouldn't cave, you know, and they took their time with this extradition decision. It essentially bounced. around to different levels of the courts over there for a number of years, much like a case would do here, right? Right. Court rules. It gets appealed to a higher court.

That court sends it back to the lower court. And it, you know, and it ping pongs around. That's essentially what happened. Meanwhile, during this time, Aaron Needle is in jail awaiting his trial. His defense attorneys were able to get the judge to order a psychiatric evaluation of Aaron because they were thinking about going with an insanity defense. I think they had a fairly good reason for that. Well, I think at the very least, you want the evaluation, right?

You want to see what cards you have to play. But it was on April 18, 1998. This was just a day before Aaron was set to meet with the court-ordered psychiatrist that guards found Aaron Needle hanging in his, self from his bed sheet. He had a faint pulse when they got him down, but he was pronounced dead at the hospital less than an hour later. And I said up front, right? Strange case, nobody is going to go to trial in the U.S. Well, we know Aaron Needle is not going to go to trial. Right. He's taken his own life before his trial even began. In August of 1998, Sam's father, Saul, who had gone to Israel.

and had stayed there to be near his son, he was charged by authorities in Maryland with obstructing a murder investigation. According to a statement made by the prosecutors, Saul Shinebine made phone calls, reservations, accommodation arrangements, and provided financial support to facilitate his son's effort to flee the United States. Well, that is obstruction. Yeah. Now, Saul would argue from Israel, right? He's not going to set foot back on U.S. soil either. Right. But he would argue from Israel that at the time, he was operating under the assumption that his son had killed in self-defense, but prosecutors had some evidence that proved otherwise. I mean, they're never going to take him to trial either because he's never going to come back. But their contention was that,

okay, the day the body was found. There's a certain. warrant served, they knew, or his father knew for sure that police wanted to question his son about what they believed was this murder that he was a part of. And his father made the decision that he was going to do whatever he had to do to get him out of the country. And that's what he did. He did do that. And then he went to join him. As a dad, you'd do about anything for your kid. You would. And this is one of those really tough. ethical decision, right? If your son or daughter came to you and said, I've committed a horrible murder, what would you do? What would most people do? And I don't think we can speak for everybody.

Right. And I don't even know if you can speak for yourself because unless you were actually in that situation, it's almost like you're just speculating. You can say, well, I think I would do this. I think I would do that. There might be also, it could be layers there, right? So how did it happen? You know, was it accidental? No, this is cold-blooded murder. But if it's cold-blooded murder, hey, I did this, I chopped them too, man. But can you help me get out of here? That's what it is. Yeah. And you're really left with, to me, the thinking that would go through a lot of people's head is, I would want to do the right thing. Sure. Now, what is the right thing? Morally, it's to call the police. Yeah. But is that the right thing for you? Is that the right thing for your daughter, for your son? It's a really tough question. It is tough. I think it's really easy to say, okay, I've got great morals. Sure. I would do this,

this and this. I call the cops, man. Don't worry. But, you know, until you're in that situation. Yeah. And you got to look at your child, right? And say, you know, son, this and. or whoever, you got to face the music. I'll be by your side to face that music. Yeah. But I'm not going to let you not get away with it. And I truly believe most people would go that route. Yeah.

I truly believe that. Now, I think a lot more people would like to think they would go that route. I don't know. Just depends. You know, another one of my stories. You know, so I was partners with some other guys and their one son murdered a, uh, his girlfriend, the one with the framing square. And that night, it was like 3 o'clock in the morning, he called his dad and told him what he did.

And his dad, you know, was very close friends with the sheriff and said, you got to turn yourself in, meet me, you know, Bob Evans. I'll make sure Blank is there. And he'll make sure, you know, he'll take you in custody and take you down. His dad's other best friend called him and said, get in your car now. come on down here to Florida, I'll get you out of the country, and you don't have to worry about it. So who won? The dad. He turned himself in.

Okay. But, I mean, just to hear that those conversations happened. And that wasn't even his son. No, it wasn't even his son, but he's like a son to him. Yeah, his best friend. And he just thought, you know, this is what I'm willing to do because I hate for you to spend the rest of your life in prison. Well, we all make choices, right? Every day.

Sure. And a lot of those choices have consequences. Now, we're not always faced with these type of very tough choices that have super serious consequences. Now, ultimately, Israel decided that Samuel Shinebine was protected from extradition as an Israeli citizen through his father. And they were not going to send him back to the U.S. They were going to try him in Israel. That didn't happen until 1999. It was in September of that year that Sam Shinebine entered into a plea agreement and went before a judge in Israel.

He was asked if he strangled Freddie Teo and then cut up and burned his body. He answered yes. That was it. That was the trial. That's everything. It was essentially a plea agreement. Sure. So did you do it?

I did. All right. We sentenced you to 24 years in prison. prison. Now, in some of the articles I read, he could have been paroled in 14, which meant since he'd already been in jail over there for like two years, he could have been out as early as 2011. So I wonder if the trial occurred here instead. What would the sentence been here? That's why the authorities in Montgomery County were so upset. And it's exactly what the prosecutor were afraid of because they were set to try him as an adult. They would have tried Aaron Needle as

an adult as well, which meant if they were convicted, they both could have faced up to life in prison. That's a big difference. Life in prison, depending on, you know, with parole, no parole, versus 24 years, you might be out in 12. Yeah. Or 14. That is a huge difference. Huge. Yeah. But, the thing in Israel, they made a big deal about it. They said, this is one of the longest sentences that any minor had ever received. Now, he wasn't a minor by the time he received it, but he was a minor when he committed the crime. And we know we've talked about it before, right? Other countries, they go about their sentences differently than the U.S. does. Oh, for sure. I think we're pretty harsh. And I don't, I don't mean harsh as in, I'm saying it's negative. I'm saying it's longer.

As in North Korea, you know, China. I think we are, we tend to air on the side of longer sentences than many other countries. We don't do some of the things that some of those other countries do. So here's the thing. And I may, I may have mentioned it already, but you had the Montgomery County prosecutors. Gibbs, they had been preparing. their case for years. They were set to try Aaron Needle. All right. He took his own life.

Right. They had to prepare the whole time to try Sam Shinebine because they didn't know what the outcome of the extradition thing was going to be. I think they, you know, assume that eventually the power of the U.S. would pull through. Yeah. And get him back here. Yeah.

Because they had a lot of big people. people involved. I think Janet Reno was involved. I mean, a lot of big lawmakers were involved in trying to get this kid back. It just didn't work. But it was really once Sam was sentenced in Israel in 1999, that's when prosecutors opened up about what they would have presented at trial based on witness testimony and the evidence they collected. There was no reason at that point to hold it back, Right. They weren't going to be able to try either one of these. Because you know, chances are, whenever Sam Scheinbein got out of prison in Israel, he wasn't hopping on the first plane back to the United States. No, he wasn't going to come back here. No way. To the point, he probably

wouldn't go back. He wouldn't travel to anywhere where it was U.S. friendly. That had an extradition agreement with the U.S. You're absolutely right. So here's what they laid out. Samuel Shinebine was in love with the girl, head over heels. He had a huge crush on this girl, but she didn't return his affections. She had actually started seeing another guy. Sam was very upset and he wanted to get rid of her boyfriend. You know, this kid that he saw is his romantic rival. Right.

The kid standing in the way of him having his dream girl or being with his dream girl. And apparently he offered at least one friend thousands of dollars to kill this boy. But the friend thought it was a joke, right? We've talked about that before. Kids saying stuff and other kids laughing it off because there's no way that Sam can be serious. He has to be joking around. Exactly. You would never think that somebody actually wanted you to kill somebody just for a few thousand dollars.

Right. You would laugh it off and move on. Right. The problem is it was no joke. prosecutor said that if he couldn't get someone else to do it, he would do it himself. But apparently he wanted to practice killing someone else first before he tried to take on his main target. So you had Aaron Needle, who had been paling around with Freddie Teo for some time. I guess one night they were driving around in Aaron's car.

They got into a fight. The fight started with some racial slurs, right? Aaron was Jewish. Freddie was Hispanic, Latino. Right. There were some racial ethnic barbs being thrown back and forth. It ended with Freddie Teo punching Aaron a number of times, which will happen. When you start doling out racial slurs, somebody's going to get ticked and you're going to get punched.

When you get personal like that, things get really personal. The problem is they were not alone that night. They had some girls with them in the car. And Aaron Needle really liked one of the girls. So police theorized that to get beaten up in front of this girl that he liked, it couldn't have set well with him. Gibbs, I know you know what that's like. You've been beaten up many times in front of many girls by many girls.

That's the problem. Mostly by girls. Yes. But in all seriousness, you know that would have to be a little emasculating. A little? A lot. A lot. And most guys wouldn't take that well.

Most guys would not. I mean, I've built up to it, but yeah. You've built up a tolerance? Yes, I have. Yeah. Big old callous for that. But really, this is what prosecutors believe may have been the reason that Freddie Teo was brought up as a target for Aaron and Samuel.

to practice on. And it's horrible to think of it like that. It's horrible to say it like that. Right. But that's what they believe that, you know, these two kids, and essentially they were, they were 17 years old, killed Freddie Teo and what was essentially practice for their real target later on, Sam's romantic rival. Again, I'm not going to go into all the witness. It wasn't testimony, right? Because there was no trial. But police had a number of years to talk to a lot of their friends, a lot of people that they spent time with. Most of this came out of those types of discussions.

Prosecutors said that Aaron and Sam went to Freddie's place of work on September 16th. And they waited for him to get off. They said that they were having a party at Sam's house because his parents were gone. But what prosecutors believe happened was that when they got to Sam's house, they knocked Freddie out with either a stun gun and or a combination of a blow to the head from the butt of a shotgun. They strangled him. They stabbed him. They dismembered his arms and legs with a circular saw.

And like we said, then they tried to cremate the. the body by setting it on fire. Circular saw, man. Yeah. Wow. They believe that the pair left Freddy's body in Sam's garage for a day or two before they moved it to the vacant house or to the garage of that vacant house where it was ultimately found. Right.

And they found some information from one of Sam's friends whose parents owned that vacant house. This guy said that Sam Shinebine asked him for a key to the house because he wanted a place to take a girl. Really? Where he could be alone. So again, prosecutors are not shooting in the dark here, right? Their theory is made up of years and years of investigation and research and eyewitness accounts.

I mean, they definitely have weight behind it then. Yeah. Yeah. But wait for what? They can't do anything with it. That's the whole thing. Yeah.

I mean, it's solid. Sounds like, well, I say solid. But it sounds like, have a really good chance to take it to trial and win. I believe they would have. If they could just get him in the door. Yeah, but I think it was after, you know, he pleaded guilty in Israel.

They knew that was probably never going to happen, right? In 1999. So this is when they started opening up. And they had a press conference that year where prosecutors unveiled some of their evidence. And I think one of the biggest. things was what they referred to as Sam's recipe for murder. This was kind of a note, a checklist, some type of document written by Sam Shinebine. And it listed the follow. Plastic garbage bags

and exacto knife, 20 gauge shotgun, goggles, circular saw, rain suits, restraints, propane tanks, and disinfected. So this is what they were calling his recipe for murder, for carrying out a murder. Pretty detailed. It also sounds like an episode of Dexter. It does. Or what he might get together when he's about ready to go out. The thing is, it wasn't just this document, right?

Police found most of these items. They also found the receipts for most of these items. either at the Shinebine home or inside the vacant garage. It's hard to dispute. Yeah. You know, it really is. Yeah. There was definitely a lot of evidence.

Prosecutors also said there was a checklist for what they believed was to be the pair's second killing. So most likely this would have been Sam's romantic rival. Right. The guy that was dating this girl that he was madly in love. with. Could you imagine, though? If you found out you were that guy, you were number two. Later on, after there's no danger or? Well, either way, but after there's no danger for sure. Yeah. You know, how close. You dodged it. Yeah, big time. You definitely dodged it. In this part of the document, it said disconnect power windows and door locks, disconnect trunk release,

test all lights, wash car inside and out. So I don't know, it's not quite clear, but it's pretty obvious. It has something to do with trapping a person inside a vehicle and killing them that way. And then taking it to dispose of or get rid of the evidence, wash out the car. A good defense attorney could spend a pretty good story on what that really meant. I don't think this was actually related to. to the killing they carried out. So I don't know if it would have been a big part of the trial had it occurred,

but it's eerie, right? That it does sound like either that was going to be part of the plan or we're now setting up for murder number two, the real target. It's all alarming to me, though. It would be alarming if it came from anyone. It's extremely alarming when it comes from two 17 year old kids. Yeah. you can just never figure out, right, how a kid can make the decision that, yep, this is the right

thing to do. Definitely. Definitely. This is what I have to do. How does it get to that? I get it. You know, these kids had some problems when they were younger and, you know, but Sam was very bright. And it's probably why he came up with what appears to be most of the plan because he was smarter than But to make that decision that you're going to put that into motion, I just don't see it. Yeah, I don't either. You know, I think about a lot of these cases we've done where these teenagers kill out of basically jealousy. Yeah. It's just alarming.

Love slash jealousy. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, I've got to be with this person. I'll do anything to be with that person. Or I don't like how you look at my man. Well. You know, and they do these. Terrible acts.

And I think you and I have talked about this before. When you're in high school, right, you're 16, 17, 18 years old, the hormones that are running through you. Also, we've talked about the fact that a relationship that lasts longer than like three, six months. Yeah. You're getting married. In a lot of kids' heads, this is the most important person that will ever enter my life. after a number of months. I mean, it really gets to that level very quickly.

Yeah, they really believe that this is the one and only. On top of the document that we just talked about, they found a note. And this note was written by Aaron Needle, but it was actually signed by both kids. They took it a step further. And for some reason, they had it notarized. It was part confessional, part last will and testament.

I think these kids knew that they had done something really bad. They did not want to face the music. They were going to do whatever they had to do to either get away or, unfortunately, take their own life. In the note, Aaron talked about wanting someone to return his car to his mother. He was really worried about his Honda accord. Those Honda Accords, man. Zoom Zoom.

Yeah. He's like, please, somebody take this. this, you know, get this back to my mother. But he went on to, you know, start to talk about the crime. And then I think at some point they realized, hey, we shouldn't be putting this down on paper. And they started to scribble out some words that were really incriminating. Well, authorities are pretty good at figuring out what was written there. Right.

And some of the words that were crossed out were. indicating that they had burned the body, they had put it in the garage. There were some other things like that. They were thinking they're being secretive, not ever realizing you could go back and, I mean, you can know, you could write up, due to you all the time. You write these little notes on your pad of paper here and you tear the note off. And when you're not around, I take the pencil and shade it in. I'm like, ah.

That's why I always, when I leave, right before I leave, I always write Gibby as an A-hole. Yeah. So you get a big chuckle out of it. He's never wrote another message on here. It's the same thing every time. It's just how he gets rid of the shading I did last time. But you're a 17-year-old kid, right? You're two 17-year-old kids.

There was evidence that came out that, you know, when they committed the crime, they were going to wear shoes that were like four sizes bigger. Yeah. Then the shoes that they normally wore. So these kids had seen movies. They had seen some crime things. And they were trying to. put to in some of these elements, it really reminds me of a movie. And I think it's called

Murder by Numbers. It's Ryan Gosling, Sandra Bullock, and Ryan Gosling was really young. It was pretty young. Yeah. And another kid that later played in Boardwalk Empire, I can't think of his name. He was the kid in Boardwalk Empire. It's a great movie, if anybody's not seen it, But it's basically them, you know, committing a murder and trying to outsmart Sandra Bullock, who's a police officer. But some of the same things, right? Yeah. They've read books.

They've watched CSI. They've done all these things. And they're trying to incorporate all of it in. Michael Pitt. Is that his name? I think so. Doesn't sound familiar. I think it's Michael Pitt.

Is that Brad Pitt's younger brother? It's not, but he probably got some roles because around that time, Brad was, you know, doing all the, all everything. Yeah. He's not big today at all. Well, I mean, he's just going to Oscar. I know. You crack me up.

Yeah, back then, Brad Pitt was pretty big. So you have these notes. You have all of this evidence, eyewitnesses, people that knew these kids, statements that the kids had made. We know. Neither of them ever stood trial in the U.S. for the murder of Freddie Teo. But I think it's pretty safe to say, Gibbs, from the evidence that prosecutors did produce.

And they probably had a bunch more that they didn't even talk about that if they had gone to trial, they most likely would have been found guilty for this murder. Sam admitted to the crime in an Israeli court. Aaron never admitted to the killing. But like we said, he chose to take his own life before his trial could start. Sam's father saw never returned to the United States to face the charges against him. That's probably not a big shocker. So in 2002, the courts stripped his law license.

Remember I said he was a patent attorney? Yeah. And you might not think that's a big deal since, okay, he's not going to come back to the U.S. anyway. But there were a lot of articles talking about the fact that he was working in Israel. he was dealing with some American clients as a patent attorney. Apparently he was making some really good money. So this probably was a really big blow to him because it was said that without his U.S.

law license, he couldn't do a lot of the things that he wanted to do. So that leaves us with Sam Shinebine because of his plea deal. The most time he could do was 24 years. That would have had him out, what, age 40, 41. Yeah. Something, something like that. Many people thought he would be out much sooner. I mean, literally 14 years, which would have been 2011.

They thought he would be out by then. But by 2014, Sam was still in prison, in Israel. What he had earned by that time was weekend passes, which I've always felt. is somewhat strange. We're not ready to let you out. But here's a weekend pass. Yeah. Go out, have some fun, mix with the locals.

Yeah. Just be back by. Yeah. Well, don't do anything bad. And make sure you get back by a certain time, right? That's really strange to me. You're either in prison or you're not in my head. I know Canada does that quite a bit where they allow people to go.

into town and hang out. Some of them allow them to like work during the day. And they got to be in by a certain time for bed call. And maybe it's just part of the rehabilitation. Well, apparently on one of these weekends, Sam was caught trying to steal a gun from an Israeli citizen who was trying to sell it. Okay, so what?

You're a bad boy. We're sending you back to prison where you're already at. Yeah. And he's probably like, it's no problem. I was due back anyway. You just brought me back. I didn't have to walk. Again, I just don't get it.

And I'm sure Gibbs for both of us, it's based on what we're used to here in the States. Like I said, in other countries, I think it's quite common for prisoners to at some point be allowed to go back into society in small doses. Yeah. I still don't get it. You're either serving time, you're in prison, or you've done your time and now you're out. Yeah, exactly. I don't, I'm not really into the trial and error.

Let's see how it goes. Right. As long as you don't kill anybody when you're in town, we'll let you out earlier. We feel pretty good about it, but not good enough to let you out full time. So I'm sure there's some rationale behind it that you and I don't understand. I'm sure there is, but on February 23rd, 2014, Sam Shinebine did somehow get his hands on a gun. And this is inside of a maximum security prison.

So apparently while he was being transferred from one cell to another, he asked to use the bathroom. When he came out, he opened fire. He shot three guards. One of them, I think, was in critical. condition. I think all three lived, but he shot three guards inside of a prison. And then from there, he basically kind of hunkered down. He set up camp, right? It was a standoff. They called in the Israeli special forces to handle this situation. And about an hour into the standoff, as they were

trying to negotiate with him, he opened fire on the special forces. That's a very bad idea. It's not going to get you the results that you think or does it. Well, it depends on what you're looking for. My theory is you do not want to mess with the Israeli special forces. They take their training very seriously over there. They do. And they have to. I mean, if you look at where Israel is, they're basically threatened, right, from all different

sides. Yeah. Angles. These guys fired back and they ended. up killing Sam Shinebine. I think the big question. And maybe there's two, right? You posed a question, okay, what did he want the end result to be? And I think that's a really good question because this guy, he's probably set to get out pretty soon. Yeah. You know, by 2014, he'd already been in there for what, 17 years, give or take. At the most, he's got seven. He's got seven. And, you know, by 2014, he'd already been in there for what,

got seven years left. And nobody expected him to do the whole time anyway. So I think a lot of people had trouble figuring out why he would do this. Maybe it was decided that he was going to have to do the full 24 and he just didn't think he could make it. Couldn't handle that. To me, the big question is, how do you get the gun? Israeli police were on high alert after special forces shot dead an American Israeli prisoner who opened fire on prison guards. Inside this jail near Tel Aviv, Samuel Scheinbein shot three security officers, critically injuring one, and barricaded himself in the compound. The prison authority said it was not clear how he came by the weapon.

This is our assessment. It was an old gun. We believe this pistol was brought in from the outside. In the prison authority, there are no guns. The guns are only in secure places. so there is no way he could have got hold of a gun through us. What we believe is that the gun was brought in, and the way it was brought in must be investigated. So a senior team has been named to investigate how a gun got into an Israeli prison.

There was a lot of conversation about how the gun got into the prison. Yeah. So I got to kick out of that part because the guy's like, yeah, we've got to put a task force together to figure out how this gun got into the prison. Right. Yeah. Thanks, Captain, obvious. Yeah.

You're in maximum security prison. Yeah. And there's the slightest chance that somebody could bring an unauthorized gun in. Maybe it's because you're giving out weekend passes. Yeah, that might be the reason why. It's almost like they're treating it. You ever going to cruise? Yeah.

When you get off at the... Embarkment? At the port. Yeah. And then when you get back on, you have to go through the metal detector. But you know half those people are sneaking shit on. I don't know. Oh, yeah.

You're not supposed to be bringing... certain things back on. But I'm still unsure how someone gets a gun into a maximum security prison. Well, I think that's why they need the task force to look into it. And I didn't go further on to see if they ever figured out exactly how it happened. But this is Israel, right? They're constantly at battle with one of their neighbors, right? Yeah, they take security and things very seriously. I'm shocked. that somehow a gun ends up in a prison. The guy was like, well, we think it was an old gun. Well, when he pulled the trigger, it still went bang, bang.

Yeah. So it worked. It wasn't that old. He was able to get ammo. I think his big thing was trying to deflect it from the fact that he didn't take it from a guard. Right. Because the guards apparently don't carry guns, which I think that's pretty normal in a lot of prisons. I know a lot of guys bring, they're bringing things.

in prison up through their keyster. Sure. It's called keystering. Keystering. I just don't know. You do it for fun, but most people do it to transport items. Hey, I'm keystering something right now. So, but you wonder.

I'm going to need that TV remote back here. Yeah. You kind of wonder why the channel keeps on flipping. Yeah. But I guess they could unassemble the gun and keyster it and then reassemble it. I mean. Yeah. I mean, if you're really good, you could reassemble it in your keyster.

But I think there's a lot of options, right? There's, you know, he could have paid a guard. Bribery's always an option. Sure. Maybe there was a visit. Maybe it was snuck in that way. Some of those are hard for me to believe because, I mean, doesn't everybody have to go through the metal detector?

Maybe the guards don't. I'd be shocked because in most prisons, that's where a lot of stuff gets funneled in. Yeah. You know, by some dishonest guards who can. can make out like bandits. Or the laundry service. It's always the laundry service. Because they got those nice carts, they push around that they can hide things in.

Yep. With the towels on top. But that's it, Gibbs. That's the case of Aaron Needle, Sam Shinebine, and the murder of Freddie Tejo. Yeah. I just thought it was a very interesting case because it has a lot of components to it. Number one, you're talking about teenagers that, according to prosecutors, kill another teenager because they want to practice.

Yeah, it's a warm up. A warm up before they move on to their ultimate target. And then, you know, Aaron taking his own life before he faced trial, Sam running away to Israel and the rising tensions between the U.S. and Israel over that. I just, I really thought. And then all of a sudden he decides, I'm going to shoot it out with the guard. Yeah.

And I never could figure out the reason why. And knowing how that was going to go down. I can't believe anybody decided to have a shootout within a prison thinking that they were going to, they were going to win and get out. Yeah. But also feel bad for Freddie's mom, you know. I mean, she moved from Costa Rica up to this part of the world. And, you know, she doesn't have her son. Yeah.

And she tried to do the best that she could. Yeah. And she was pretty honest. She had trouble raising him. as a single parent. He acted out. But, you know, overall, I think he was a good kid. He sold weed and did some stuff that a lot of kids do.

Yeah, we all do something. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Sure. I'm saying they're so nervous.

And I didn't understand it until just now. Woo! I'm drinking out a little bit. I'm Dana calling from it to tell you guys. I love your podcast. I know you hear it all the time. But I'm on you guys because I was looking. for my favorite murder, Dahmer, and they didn't cover him.

And your podcast pulled up, and I swear, ever since then, I cannot stop listening to you guys. I put my twin sister on and my mother, and my twin sister, like, skyrocketed, and now she's on us all. But shout out to my twin, Nadine, set out to my mom, Christine, and we love you guys so much. Keep me doing what you're doing, and keep your own time ticking. Love you. Bye. Wow, man, family loving going on in ATL. Yeah, hot Lanna.

Yeah. All right. We love all you, too. Now, we'll say, you can't let your twin sister beat you like that. You got to pick up your game. Yeah. Get through T-Cat. Jump over to Unsolved.

There's a lot of goodness there. A lot of goodness there. Even more goodness on Patreon. Oh, a lot of goodness there too. Mm-hmm. Hi, Mike and Giddy. This is Sadie. I've been listening to you guys for a while now, currently on episode 70s.

six. I love to listen to you guys at work. I work at a call center, so that kind of helps to provide my day out. My supervisor will actually walk by and not listening to your crime podcast again. I certainly love you guys. I've always been super interested in true crime and you guys make it so much fun and funny. I will burst into laughter randomly at work, get these weird looks. I'm actually currently listening to you guys as I make my Valentine's Day treats for my agents. So I just wanted to finally work up the courage. to give you guys a call. Well, keep up the good work.

I'm going to continue to binge watch until I finally catch up and keep your own time ticking. Well, that's cool. Hey, by the way, she's got a whole dance name after her. What's it goal? Sadie's dance. It's when the girls pick the gas. You're talking about Sadie Hawkins? Well, I think you can use any last name you want.

I don't think you can. As long as you're the Sadie. I don't think, you're going to the Sadie Jenkins dance? You're going to the Sadie Johnson dance? I've never heard that. Oh, Sadie Smith dance is happening tonight. Come on down. That was funny.

So this is why I took away from that, right? Love it. She's going to catch up. It's going to be a while, depending on how fast she's going before she hears this. But when you hear that somebody's on 76. Yeah. Back in the day, that was a lot of episodes. It was.

She's almost 100 behind. Yeah. I can't believe we're in the 170s. And more importantly. Where's our goodies, man? I heard she was making some goodies. Making goodies for her agents. We need goodies too.

I didn't hear she was making goodies. That's all I heard. We love goodies. We do love goodies. Brianna from Homer Alaska. I grew up in Ohio and I've recently moved to Alaska. Well, not recently. It was like 2050.

I moved back to Ohio to the Illyria area. Kind of closed to Cleveland. Met my fiance and brought him back up with me. And he's not as big as a true kind of fan. as I am, but he listens with me in the car on the way to work, and I listen on my lunch break, and I've been binging all the episodes. I'm not quite up to the recent ones yet, so we'll see if I ever get to hear my voicemail. But it's really cool listening to you guys.

It's really cool finding a true crime podcast close to my home heart, you know. But yeah, I love the podcast. I love through crime and keep your own time taken. Thank, bye. Home or Alaska? And she only comes back to Ohio to get a man. to snare a man. And then right away, whisks him right back to Homer, Alaska.

Yeah. That's Homer for you, though. I don't know how many men there are in Homer. Probably like 30 men to one woman. And she's like, nah, I'm going to go back to Ohio. Wouldn't it be the other way around for her to have the problem? I don't know if it's 30 women to each man. I think it's probably more men than one.

You're saying those 30 are rough. I'm so I'm saying. Yeah. We might get some hate mail from Homer Alaska now. They'd be like, yeah, you're right. There's a lot of men here. True crime all the time. Hey, a new listener of you guys.

Caitlin, anyway, I'm forward to listening. Bye, guys. So Gibbs, we've often talked about people that, you know, hear the episode about someone that they had, you know, kind of an interaction. Right. A slight run in. They were, they did somebody's hair. Yeah. Or, you know, whatever it was.

This is her uncle. Yeah. And I think that would. would be, I don't know how that would be, because I've never been in that position. Obviously, Caitlin didn't do any of the things that Paul Ezra Rhodes did. No, no. I think it would be strange to hear about a family member who, you know, committed crimes and did some things that, obviously, it's not like she didn't know that it occurred.

But you're right. It's, it's strange. I think it would be. Almost as strange when the Zodiac's daughter called me and wanted to know when we were going do her dad's episode. Probably is she won't tell you who he is. I know. Exactly.

It makes it tough. She did leave her number though. Okay. I'll call her. So we got one thing in the mailback. Amanda Morrill sent in a bag of coffee from Sweden. Yeah. And you watched me drink a cup right before we started recording.

It's wild blueberry. I mean, it's like nothing I've ever had. You seem to like it. It was very good. I'm normally a straight black, no cream, no flavor type of coffee guy, but it had a good taste to it. But you are turning blue. Yes, like a little bit of the Willy Wonka chocolate factory. Very much like that.

We'll see how it goes. Yeah. All right. That is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.