True Crime All The Time - Alan Eugene Miller

Episode Date: August 30, 2021

On August 5th, 1999 Alan Eugene Miller stormed into Ferguson Enterprises, his place of employment, and gunned down two of his coworkers in a rage-induced killing. He sped off and went to Post Airgas, a company he was fired from that year and murdered another man. He was arrested less than an hour later. The police were confused as to his real motive. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murders committed by Alan Miller. Alan’s family and friends were shocked. To them, he was a kind and helpful man with simple interests in watching sports and hunting. What could cause such a nice guy to turn into a rampage killer? According to his attorneys, Alan was suffering from delusions and was legally insane, but the jury disagreed. Although the facts of the case are solved, there is much debate about Alan’s delusions and if he was wrongfully put on death row as a mentally ill inmate.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 248 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great.

Yeah. You and I just got done recording a brand new Patreon only episode. We sure did. It was interesting for sure. It was on Randy Stair, sometimes known as the Danny Phantom Killer. This is a young man who wanted to be a YouTube star. Right. And when he couldn't make it, couldn't make his dreams come true, he decided to commit a mass murder at his workplace and then end his life.

We also have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved. We're talking about the Hemlock Valley murders. We are. Yeah, we're headed up to British Columbia near Vancouver. And talking about the three young women that were murdered. And we got a few suspects. One very famous. Good old Willie.

Willie Picton. Yes. Yeah. So good episode. Make sure you check that out. Gives, before we dive into this T-Cat episode, let's give our shout-outs. For Patreon, we had Pure Love, E&P, jump out at our highest level. Appreciate that, Pure Love.

Emily, Bredale jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Emily. Lydia. Lydia. Claire Camerano. What's up, Camerano? Brandon Ingalls. Hey, there's Brandon.

Rick Davis. What's going on, Rick? Nicole. Appreciate that, Nicole. Melissa with 1S. Well, that's just Melissa. Lori Matthews. Hey, Lori.

Allison Clemens Roberts jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Allison? Lisa, AKA LPP. Hey, what's up? LPP. Brian Beaver. Hey, Brian. Lindsay Greco.

Appreciate that. Lindsay. Rebecca Driscoll. Hey, Rebecca. Irene Marcus. What's going on, Irene. Michelle Mason. Appreciate that, MM.

Alyssa. Good old Alyssa. Laura Trotner. Hey, Laura. Christina Grace. What's going on, Christina. Jessica McConville. Well, nothing wrong with that, McConville.

And last but not least, Jesse Madding. Hey, appreciate that, Jesse. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Jennifer Bardwell. Hey, Jennifer. So a big shot out to all the new Patreon supporters, the people that continue to support us month after month. We had some great PayPal donations from Stacey Bowman. Hey, Stacy. Dana Mackie.

There's Dana. And Mark Kirkpatrick. Hey, Mark. So thanks to all of you as well. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about another instance of workplace murder, this time at the hands of a man named Alan Miller. It was on August 5th, 1999 that Alan Eugene Miller stormed into Ferguson Enterprises.

No relation. No relation. His place of employment, though. And he gunned down two of his coworkers in a rage-induced. killing, he sped off, left that scene and went to post air gas, a company from which he was fired earlier that year, and he murdered another man. Now, he was arrested very quickly, but police were confused. As to Allen's real motive, his family and friends were shocked. I think Gibbs to them, you know, Alan was a kind, helpful man. He wasn't complicated. He had very simple.

interest, he liked to watch sports, he was into hunting, people just couldn't figure out what would cause such a nice guy to turn into a rampage killer. Now, according to his attorneys, Alan was suffering from delusions and was legally insane. But the jury ended up not agreeing with that. Now, we know the facts of this case are solved, but there is a lot of debate about Alan's delusions and, and, whether he was wrongfully put on death row as a mentally ill inmate. So all of that we'll get into. Yeah, some good discussion points. Alan Eugene Miller was born in Chicago on January 20th, 1965 to parents Barbara and Ivan Miller. Alan was the middle of seven children, but two of his siblings passed away at a young age. And Gibbs Allen suffered from head injuries as a child,

something we haven't talked about in many of our recent episodes. I think the problem is there's really no sources that specify exactly what happened or the exact severity of the injury. So we just don't know exactly what happened. It just talked about head injuries. Some sources allege Ivan Miller was abusive to his children. But again, there's no details around. the abuse that he might have inflicted.

Because of these head injuries, though, Alan suffered from headaches quite often. His mother, Barbara Miller, told various news outlets that she treated his headaches with goodies powders. And you know what? A lot of people love that goodies powder. Yeah,

I've never tried it. Yeah. It's been around for, seems like forever. Sure has. And I think you're right. A lot of people put quite a bit of, a stock into it.

Especially for hangovers. As something that works really well. Right. I just seen it the other day at the dollar store. Did you? I actually did, yeah. Might not buy it from the dollar store, but okay. You know, a little tiny package, tear it open and dumping into your drink.

It's been expired for seven years, but we'll go with it. Yeah. When Allen was seven years old, the millers moved from Chicago to Birmingham, Alabama. Well, that's quite a difference. Yeah, it is. I mean, I love Chicago. I also really like Birmingham. But you'd have to agree

they're very different places. Oh, for sure, yeah. Alan finished the rest of elementary school in Birmingham, moved on to midfield high school, and then graduated from Trinity High School in Ulus, Texas. According to his mother, Alan never brought any girls home. He never really even talked about girls.

She once overheard him tell one of his brothers, all women are interested in is money and cars. Okay, very general statement. It is. Are there some women who are only interested in money and cars? Maybe. Yeah. Maybe so.

But there's probably. And shoes. I'd throw shoes in there. And there's some men that are only interested in money and cars too. And shoes too probably. And shoes as well. Yeah. The Millers were viewed as, I guess what you'd call Gibbs, somewhat of a strange family.

Apparently, Alan's, father Ivan liked to walk into the local grocery store and recite Bible verses. I guess he just walked around the store basically talking about sinners and predicting their doom. Okay. That's going to get you labeled, I think, in the community. Not that probably a lot of people down south didn't believe in some of those things. But the fact that you're just walking around the store kind of spouting all that stuff out,

okay, it's a little strange. A lot of people who knew Alan when he was younger considered him a nice boy. A lot of people said though that he just wasn't much of a talker. He really was the type of person who would only speak when he was spoken to. I can relate to that. Yeah. I get that.

Now, some kids back during that time frame were taught that, right? You only speak when you're spoken to. You've heard that old saying. Kids are meant to be seen. not heard. Oh yeah. A lot of us got some of that. You did. And if you went against it, you got to switch or in your case, the Mattel racetrack. Exactly. Or the Hasbro racetrack or whatever it was. After high school, Allen tried to enlist in the military. But the recruiters told him that he needed to lose weight before he could join. Alan didn't want to lose weight. So he never enlisted. He's like,

hey, I'm good where I'm at, man. Yeah. I'm happy with my, uh, with my weight, I guess I will not join. But they've always had that, right? Absolutely. A requirement that you get down to X or, or is it, you know, at the very least, by the end of boot camp, you got to be down to X or probably both. When you go in, you got to be somewhere and then you have to reach a proficiency by the end of boot camp.

I was never in the military, so I don't know. Then you had also, you know, make sure you did, you know, rain your mile in so many minutes. and could do some of push-ups, pull-ups, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I get that. So Alan worked as a truck driver for various companies in his 20s and into his early 30s. He had a history of fighting with his coworkers and was once fired for fighting on the job. So, again, I think something that you have in common with this guy, I know you have a history of fighting with coworkers.

When I'm walking out that door, I'm like, hey, bleep-de-bleep, bleep. Anybody want some? I'll be in the parking lot. I don't know why you've always said that, but you gave a lot of invitations. I'll be out here. People never even said anything to you. You just wanted to fight people. Hey, you, I'll be out in the parking lot. You have something to say? The Birmingham News interviewed his former co-workers and employers in 1999. And that's where they learned about some of these fights. In the early 90s, Dave Adderholt hired Allen to work as a truck driver for Holcomb, Bill. building supply. Alan was a good worker. Everybody said that. But Adderhold had to fire him for fighting with two other men at work. Apparently they were making jokes about Alan. They were calling him a redneck. Okay. I guess he didn't like that. Some people wear that with pride. Sure. Just never know. That's one of those words Gibbs that I never really understood whether it was offensive or not. probably depends on the air that you grew in, grew up in. And who you're talking to?

And who you're talking to? People are going to take it one way or another. I do think there are some people that take pride and saying, yeah, I'm a redneck. But again, I don't know in today's climate if that's viewed as kind of one of those sensitive type words nowadays. I really don't know. I don't use it. Jeff Foxworthy used it a lot. You might be a redneck.

You might be. Yeah, but eventually these guys pushed Allen too far. Yeah, we don't have all the details. It could have been that he took offense to that name calling. It also could have been that they just didn't let up, right? You know, once you tell somebody, hey, that's enough. I heard you. I don't want to hear it anymore.

And they keep pushing you. Maybe that's what happened in this situation. I don't know. Dave Adderhold later told the paper that Allen didn't start it, but he sure finished it. He took care of both of them. You knew how to handle himself. Obviously did. He beat these two guys' asses, I guess is what happened. So Alan then started working at a company called Post Air Gas in 1993. He worked there for six years and even got

his little brother a job there. Alan worked with Terry Jarvis, who was his supervisor. Terry was responsible for ensuring deliveries were made on time and he gave Alan his orders. But Alan and Terry didn't always get along. Co-workers reported that Alan repeatedly had shouting matches with Terry Jarvis throughout the six years that he worked there. During one of these shouting matches, Alan yelled, I'm tired of your rumors about me. No one was ever able to say what these rumors were so we don't know.

But obviously, at least from Allen's standpoint, Terry was talking about him, was spreading. rumors about him and he was tired of it. He didn't like it. He didn't like it. But despite, you know, his kind of fighting a little bit, right, he got irritated somewhat easily. It sounds like a lot of coworkers described Alan as a hard worker who basically kept to himself. I think Gibbs co-workers generally liked him. And I think at the very least, they didn't see any signs that he was capable of the extreme type of violence that we're going to see from out.

Now, obviously, he was capable of violence. If somebody pushed him, if somebody challenged him, and, you know, in the one case, two guys wanted to fight him and he kicked both of their asses. So he was obviously a capable fighter. Sure. You could handle himself. You would call that violence. It's violent.

Yeah, sure it is. But what he's going to do is much, much worse than that. I don't think anybody saw that side. No. Now, what a lot of people did say was that Alan had some anger issues, specifically when it came to what he perceived to be rumors spread about him. Well, I think rumors were kind of a trigger for him. It sure sounds like it.

But that seemed to be the big one, right? There wasn't a lot of talk about, okay, he had five triggers, 10 triggers. It was really the rumors that everybody talked about. Well, look, nobody likes anybody. talking about them behind their backs, right? Well, you sure about that? What if they're saying something very nice about you? Are they, though?

What if they're saying you're the greatest person who ever lived? Well, that's not a rumor. It's fact. No, you said people talking behind, they're talking behind your back, but they're saying something really good. Yeah, well, no, you're right. I mean, nobody likes people trash talking you. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I mean, I think even rumors can be very flattering. They could. I don't think the word rumors in and of itself. has to have a negative connotation. Right. Right.

Yeah. I'm sure people have spread a lot of rumors about you that have been very flattering. And they're absolutely true. 100% true. But I think in this context, obviously we're talking about rumors that Alan didn't find flattering. Right. They were obviously something that he was not happy that people were saying about him.

In 1999, Alan was 34 years old. and was working as a truck driver for Ferguson Enterprises, a heating and air conditioning firm. Now, why couldn't that have been owned and started by my dad? I don't know, man. And I could now be running Ferguson Enterprises. We kind of are running your own Ferguson Enterprises, just not called that. Yeah, it just wasn't handed to me. I want something to have been handed to me.

Well, okay. Isn't that what we all want? We're kind of talking about our Patreon-only episode. Right. Speaking of something, you know, that you want, you want handed to you, you can't get it. In January 1999, Allen was laid off from post-air gas due to economic downsizing. Brother, have I been there? You have been.

And was there about, what, two? Three years ago. It's been three years now. It's been three years ago. Wow. Since I was air quotes downsized. or displaced is the word they used, but it's all the same. Don't miss you.

I miss working with you. I do not miss that job. I have to be completely honest. I don't think you realize what you're in when you're in the thick of it day in and day out. That's true. Until you step away from it for an extended period of time and you really have the clarity to look back on it and say, who, what was I into? I mean, this was, it was brutal at times. The people were great.

I love the people, but. You're definitely happier. Oh, there's no doubt. Yeah. There's no doubt. So Alan was laid off, but his brother wasn't. And Alan quickly found another job at Ferguson where he worked with two men named Lee Holdbrooks and Scott Yancey, David Tinker, a purchasing agent at Ferguson, told the

Anderson star that some of Alan's coworkers made fun of him for his son. thoughts. Now supervisors at Ferguson disagreed and said no one ever made fun of him for his weight. That's pretty common. I would say it happens more than people think at workplace. Oh, I don't mean somebody making fun of somebody's weight. I mean, you know, if you're being interviewed by the paper, a coworker is going to say one thing. Supervisors are going to swoop in and say, oh, no, no, no, no, that never happened. Oh, of course. Because that's, you are, man. That's, PR, you know, that's bad PR. We don't want that. Now, what's the truth? I don't know. But we've talked about the, uh, the military. Now we're talking about his weight possibly being an issue at a job

where coworkers allegedly made fun of him. So it's come up twice already, right? In the story, in 1999, Alan lived with his mother, Barbara Miller in Billingsley, Alabama, pretty rural town about 50 miles south of Pelham, Alabama, Barbara told the Birmingham news. Alan didn't bother anyone. And she never noticed anything off about her son. Alan was quiet. He pretty much always stayed at home when he wasn't working. Oh yeah.

He didn't do drugs. He didn't drink. He didn't smoke. That's pretty rare. It is pretty rare. Most people usually do at least one of those things or a combination of things. Now, Alan did own several guns. He liked to hunt in his free time. He also enjoyed watching sports on TV and riding around on his four-wheeler. Who wouldn't love riding a four-wheeler?

You ever ride a four-wheeler? Oh, yeah. Oh, I love it. It's fun. Didn't realize at the time and have learned since how dangerous they really are and how many people flip four-wheelers and have accidents with four-wheelers. But they are fun to ride. There's no doubt about it. Alan's neighbors and, you know, and his family just thought he was a nice guy. One neighbor, Sherry Williams, told the Birmingham news that Alan was real nice. We leave for work about the same time.

He always talks to me. He doesn't strike you as a fellow who would do something like they say he has done. So obviously, the newspaper is not going to be talking to neighbors until after Alan commits the, the murders. But, you know, I think it's important to talk about now.

neighbor Wayne Miller said that he was impressed by Alan's friendliness. This was something that he said to the Washington Post. Alan stopped buying his truck, introduced himself and told Wayne how he drove almost 100 miles each day for work. So that's a commute. That is a commute. 50 miles each way. I had a commute like that for a little bit.

Yeah, he did. Yeah. And never could make it on time. No. Always some kind of traffic. That darn traffic. Good thing is I had a boss that was later than me. That's true.

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And I guess Alan pulled up beside her in his truck and he offered his help. She tried to pay him, but he refused to accept the money. He said he couldn't take money for helping someone out. when he got her car out of the ditch Gibbs, he even checked the undercarriage to see if she had any damage. So, I mean, I think we're telling all of these stories because to the majority of people.

Yeah. Who interacted with him, Alan was kind. He was helpful to his neighbors. He was even helpful to complete strangers. Yeah, we're hearing all this great things about them. Unfortunately,

we know what's going to happen. And I think that's why we, kind of, you know, talked about the question up front. Who was this guy? Yeah. And why did he do what he did? How was he capable of it? Knowing what all these people thought about him, what they said about him. You know, one thing that neighbors noticed was that Allen really never strayed away from his routine. Amanda Williams told the Montgomery advertiser, he would always have a set pattern. He left early in the morning and he came home later in the afternoon. But Amanda noticed a deviation in his routine on August 3rd, 1999. She saw Alan out at his mailbox at 1 p.m. And she thought that was very strange

because he was always gone at that time. Now, she didn't think a whole lot of it. What she didn't know was that Alan had been laid off from Ferguson on that day for unknown reasons, and it was just two days later, Gibbs, that Alan would commit a horrific act of violence that put his name on the national news. It was on August 5th, 1999 that Alan murdered 32-year-old Lee Holdbrooks, 28-year-old Christopher Scott Yancey, and 39-year-old Terry Jarvis. in Pelham, Alabama. He shot Leon Scott at Ferguson Enterprises, where they worked. He then drove over and killed Terry at post-airgas, the company he was laid off from,

in just the span of about 13 minutes. Alan ended three lives. Wow. How fast was that? But I think it goes to show you. And he had the drive from one place to another. Yeah. Just how quickly lives can be taken.

you know, sometimes in the blink of an eye. Alan's mother barber told the Birmingham news that on the morning of August 5th, Alan went off to work, just as he always does in the morning. He left here like he always does with a seven up and a couple of things of biscuits and sausage. All right. That's good. I like biscuits and sausage for breakfast. Alan left around 6 a.m.

to make the 50-mile drive to work. Now, it's not known if Barbara knew he was fired or let go at this point. What Barbara definitely didn't know was that Alan didn't just pack his lunch. He took one of his guns with him to work that day. So Alan arrived at Ferguson and he entered the unlocked building with his gun drawn. Lee was the first person he encountered. And the two men exchanged words about some. alleged rumors that Lee was spreading about Allen and Alan fired his gun. He shot Lee multiple times

in the chest and once in the head. But it doesn't stop there, does it? No, because Alan then ran down the hallway and he shot Scott Yancey. He ran out of the building after another employee spotted him. But again, these rumors, this guy really did not like people talking about him or whether they were or not, if he thought they were talking about him, it really upset him. And how bad did these rumors have to be to enrage you so much to take the lives of these people that you thought were spreading these rumors? Now, the following information comes from Ferguson Enterprise's VP of Operations, a guy by the name of Johnny Cobb. His statement was used in one of Allen's appeal, Miller v.

state at 7 a.m. Cobb arrived at Ferguson Enterprises. He recognized the vehicles in the parking lot as belonging to Scott Lee and Allen. So I think right off the back, you're talking about a company that probably doesn't employ a ton of people. Right. If this guy knows what everybody's vehicle in the parking lot looks like, I'm making that assumption. Just before Johnny went inside, he heard some loud noises, he heard some screaming, he opened the door and he saw Alan walking towards him. Alan pointed a pistol at him and said, I'm tired of people starting rumors on me. Cobb yelled at him, don't shoot me. I haven't done anything. And he tried to convince Alan to put the gun down. But Alan just told him to get out of the way. So Johnny Cobb took off and he fled the

building. Now, he later went back inside after Allen drove away and he found Scott and Lee dead on the floor. So you and I talk a lot about people who encounter killers. Right. In certain situations. And they either get away or they live. So two thoughts on this Johnny Cobb. You know, first of all, Gibbs, what's he thinking when he encounters Alan? who's holding a pistol on him. He knows this Allen guy. He's worked with him probably for, you know,

a number of years in the past. But anytime somebody's pointing a pistol at you, that's a very scary proposition. Then my second thing is, okay, Alan leaves. Johnny goes back in the building and he finds two employees dead.

So there's a range of emotions for that. But then on top of that, there's something about the fact that that could have just as easily been you. Very easily. I mean, you were staring down the barrel of this pistol that was used to shoot both of these men and you got away and you lived. It could have been as simple as you saying the wrong thing to him at that moment. Yeah.

And you would have been on the floor as well. Yeah. So I always wonder about that. I mean, what goes through these people's minds? Not, you know, yes, at the time. and then just a little bit after. But years later, you've got to think back on that moment. That moment's not leaving you.

You know you literally dodged a bullet. And I think you have to live the rest of your life with that knowledge. At least this would be my thinking. I've never been in that situation. But don't you have to live it like, man, I got a second chance. I would think you would have to or would want to, right? But I think, I do believe a lot of people that fades away over time for some people. I'm sure.

Yeah, I'm sure it does. You're probably right. Until something really scary happens to them again. They're like, oh, man. Not again. Not again. This time, I'm going to live my best life ever. So Cobb called the police at 7.4 a.m.

They got to Ferguson a few minutes later. But their suspect had already fled the scene. They found Lee at the end of a bloody crawl trail who said to have been about 20 to 25 feet and they found Scott's body in a hallway. So I mean, I think when you picture that in your mind, Lee Hold Brooks was shot, he falls to the floor. He tries to crawl about 20 to 25 feet before he ultimately succumbs to his injuries. He's trying to get to help. He's trying to save himself, but he can't do it. Right. Yeah. Sad. Just a few minutes later, a 911 dispatcher received. a call about a shooting at post air gas.

This is about five miles from Ferguson Enterprises. A third victim had been shot and the suspect description matched the Ferguson shooter. Well, obviously, we know it's Alan Miller. My assumption is with the description, it couldn't have taken law enforcement very long to put it together that this guy left Ferguson, drove to post air gas and could. committed another murder. The next bit of information comes from Andy Adderholt, the store manager at the Pelham location of post-air gas.

His statement was also used in the Miller versus state appeal. Andy said he arrived at work just after 7 a.m. He went inside and he talked to Terry Jarvis for a few minutes before going to his office. He saw a man enter the building. The man went to the counter. and shouted at Terry saying, hey, I hear you've been spreading rumors about me. Terry walked out of his office and went behind the counter. And he responded, I have not.

And it was then that the man shot at Terry. Andy hid behind the counter. And the man went around and pointed a gun at Andy. Andy said he begged for his life. And the man didn't shoot him. He only told him to get out. But as he was leaving the building, Andy, he heard another gunshot. He jumped over a fence and he used his phone to call the police at 7.18 a.m.

Officers arrived at the scene. They entered the building and they found Terry's body. So there's the 13 minutes that it took to take three lives. Yes. And in the second location, you have another individual who comes face to face with Alan Miller. Literally is face to face with the barrel of his gun. and is allowed to walk away. So, you know, I think one of the first questions you have to ask is, why were these two individuals allowed to walk away? Why did Alan Miller not want to kill these two people? Maybe they weren't part of the rumor starting club that he was so upset about.

Yeah, that was my thought exactly. He just didn't have anything against these guys. Yeah. So, yeah, in that respect, it kind of separates him, right, from some other mass killers who walk into a place and, and fire indiscriminately. They kill anyone they can. Just like our patron only episode this week. Yes. Yes, exactly.

Alan Miller seems a little different. Selective. Selective. He's still a killer. Don't get me wrong. Right. But he was selective. He, it seems.

as though he was only going after the people who he felt had been spreading these rumors about him, had been talking about him. My assumption is these other two guys, at least in his mind, hadn't done anything to him. So he wasn't going to kill them. Yeah, because he could easily had five victims. Oh, there was no doubt. Yeah. I think these gentlemen were right in front of him, It would have been a point blank range shot almost. He would have killed them. Sure. If he had wanted to.

He just didn't want to. Within an hour of the shooting, a high speed chase ensued. And Alan was arrested. I think we said it right up front, right? It didn't take long for police to identify the shooter to track him down and arrest him. Police sergeant, Stuart Davidson, and his partner were patrolling I-65. when they received news of the second shooting. They saw a truck matching the suspect's description.

Davidson radioed back and they initiated a traffic stop. They got this guy to pull over by forcing his vehicle to the shoulder. Well, Alan's going to resist and kind of fight the officers at first. Yeah, but I think they were able to subdue him and they found a handgun resting on the seat of his car. So here again, I'm going to. ask the same question. And I think we're going to get to the same answer, but it's, you've already killed three people. Right. The police are trying to pull you over, but you have no inclination to really try to get away, to fire at the police, none of that. Well, because in his mind,

the police didn't do anything to wrong him. Right. They, they weren't spreading rumors about him. He had killed the individuals who he felt had been talking about him, the individuals who he had set out to kill and he was done. I just, I find that very odd. You know, it's at odds with a lot of the killers that we talk about, you know, killers of opportunity or people who are just out to create as much carnage as they possibly can. That's not this guy. He's a killer for sure, but he's not that type of killer. It's almost as if he has a code. I hate to say that.

That's what it is, right? It is like he has a code. But when you say it like you just did, it feels like he's doing the right thing. And obviously we're not saying that. He didn't. He did the wrong thing. But you hear about killers who say,

you know, women and children were off limits to them. Okay. That's having a code. Doesn't make you a great guy. No, you're still a killer. But I think Gibbs, when you look at a lot of killers, they don't have a code. They are just looking for anyone who is going to satisfy whatever sick urges they have.

I just think Alan Miller is a different type of killer. Yeah. Not saying he's a better type. I'm just saying he's a different type. Barbara Miller first learned that something was wrong when she received a call from the Augusta County Sheriff's Department that morning. Pelham PD asked Augusta County to call Barbara to make sure Alan was all right. The sheriff's office refused to say anything and told her to call Pelham. I think she thought something had happened to Alan. He'd been in a car accident. That was until one of her other sons called and told her exactly what happened. And she was in a state of complete shock. Barbara was so upset when she found out what Alan did that her friends and family came to the house to console her. And again, Gibbs, I think this is something that most parents

would experience. I think you and I have talked about it before. What happens when your child kill someone or goes on a rampage or you find out that they're a serial killer? Yeah. You got to shake your head and be like, is this a nightmare? Right. I can't be awake for this, right? This can't be real and there's no way that I raised the killer. Especially in this scenario, it sounds like from everything the neighbor said, neighbors, you wouldn't have seen this coming.

No, he was a pretty good guy. Nobody saw the signs. Yeah. Now, did he kick a couple of people's asses? Sure. But, you know, who hasn't? Exactly. If that made people killers a lot more.

of us would be killed. Right. I think that's very different from, you know, what we talked about in the Patreon episode, you know, where this guy was putting things out on YouTube, essentially telling people. Right. His subscribers, what his plans were. You know, Alan wasn't doing that. He wasn't giving off the signals that he was, you know, a bad guy. He was a dangerous guy. I don't think people were worried about him in that way. No, it seems like one day he woke up and decided today is the day that I'm going to write these wrongs in his mind. In his mind.

And, you know, maybe he did get to a breaking point. Maybe we'll take, we'll talk about it later about what he perceived to be these rumor spreadings, whether they were real or not, you know, we'll get into it. All right, Gibbs, let's take our last break to talk about best fiends. You've heard me talk about it before. Best Fiends is one of those things that I use when I need a little me time, when I need a little refresh from all of the research and everything that goes into the podcast. You know, sometimes the best way to reset is by giving yourself a fun challenge.

And for me, that is Best Fiends. It's something that once I started playing, I just didn't want to stop. And there's a part of me that loves striving to get to that next level. I get a sense of gratification when I get there. and then I'm on to the next one. There are tons of cute characters, aka Fiends, to collect as you go along. Best Fiends has thousands of puzzles,

and they add new ones all the time. So, you know, seriously, it's hard to put down sometimes. And I love that I can play it literally anywhere I want without having to worry about using data or finding Wi-Fi. Download the five-star rated puzzle game, Best Fiends, free today on the app store or Google Play. That's Friends Without the R. best fiends. Two Pelham PD officers came to Barbara's house at 1.30 p.m.

one officer seized a box of 40 caliber ammo from the house and they searched the home for any signs of a motive. And I think really this is a big piece of this case, right? The motive. Alan's family couldn't understand why he did it. We mentioned it. He was a relatively quiet guy, never drank, never used drugs. Never. Never used drugs. Never. really showed major signs of violent behavior. This was a guy who had a set routine, very rarely deviated from it. I think everyone was confused. His family was confused. Law enforcement officers were confused. And I think the families of the victims were confused. What, what had happened? Why did this happen? So I think, you know, at a certain point, Gibbs obviously the entire town finds out

what had happened. Local news outlets began covering the story live. Later that day, CNN interrupted their regularly scheduled programming to broadcast the story. It was everywhere, man. It was pretty big. Yeah. It was shared all the way over in London, Tokyo. And I think there's a reason for that. And the reason is that these shootings came just one week after one of the worst office shootings in U.S. history. On July 29th, 1999, Mark Barton killed nine people and wounded 13 at two Atlanta brokerage firms before killing himself in a standoff with the police. But eight hours before he went to his workplace, he murdered his wife and two children. Yeah, by beating them the death. Yeah, very brutal. We will definitely cover his case in full at some point in time.

He typed up a confession on his computer, saying that he only planned to stay alive long enough to kill those that sought his destruction. Barton was severely depressed due to a failed marriage, financial troubles, work troubles, and may have been suffering from delusions that people were out to get him. I think in reality, what came out Gibbs was that all of his problems were caused by his own actions. Barton's murder suicide and Allen's shooting and arrest were covered heavily by local and national news outlets. So I got to ask you, do you think if it wasn't for Barton's murder suicide the week before

would Allen's case been covered as extensively as it was? Yeah, I think it's a great question. I don't know the answer. My first thought is no. I think it would have been covered. I don't know if it would have been covered to the. the extent it was. Right.

You know, when you have kind of a mass murder or shooting and then you have another one right on the heels of that one, I just think it's going to, it's going to grab a lot more attention. Yeah. But back in Allen's case, police struggled to find a motive. Well, for one thing, Alan wasn't willing to tell them anything. So they had to interview everyone he knew. and it came out from some of Lee's friends that Alan was angry with Lee because he felt that he was getting longer routes, better routes at work.

Yeah. So when I worked for UPS, you know, the drivers would bid on routes and get routes. And so they would actually get in some fights over people taking what they thought should have been their route, right? They used to run it all the time. Now it's up for bid. you know, somebody that had more seniority would take it from them. And they get pretty upset with each other.

I mean, they would, like, they wouldn't get into fist fights, but they would push around each other a little bit and say some things. And you thought, man, is this going to escalate? Come to blows. Yeah. I could see where it would be competitive. I was never in that industry, but I could see where some routes would be much better than others.

Oh, for sure. And so if you had one of those. routes that everybody kind of deemed as easier or better, whatever terminology you want to use, and you lost it, you'd be bitter. Yeah. And you got stuck with one that, that was worse or harder or longer or whatever it was. Now, you say it didn't come to fist a cuffs at the one you were at. Right.

Let's not say it didn't at others, because I'm sure it did. Oh, UPS, FedEx, whatever you want to say. You know, there's some parking lot fights going on. on someone sure yeah guys taking their shirt offs somebody's betting on this guy somebody's taking all the bets it's like a little mini fight club yeah but in the parking lot of the uPS terminal it's like that Clint Eastwood movie when he was doing those fights every which way but lose that one is that i don't know there's there was a number of them where he was like a wasn't he a bare knuckle brawler yeah and the monkey that flipped everybody off is that is that the

same movie that's the same movie That was a good movie. Yeah. Right turn, Clyde, I think is what he would say. So Ferguson employee Chad Ingram spoke to the police and said, Alan was jealous of Lee and Scott. Again, he said he thought Lee was getting better routes and that Scott, who was a dispatcher, was in cahoots with Lee, basically giving him these better routes.

So he thought these two guys were teaming up again. him. Yep. Yeah. Now, I still don't understand yet where the rumors come in. We'll, you know, we'll see where we, we go with that. Because right now when police are talking to friends, it's not really rumors. It's more about you're cheating me, right? Or you're, you're conniving with another to get what you want and freeze me out. Alan first appeared in court on August 6, 1999. On the 17th of that month, Alan pleaded innocent by reason of mental disease or defect at his arraignment. His lawyer said he was confused and that Alan didn't even understand the nature of the charges. So Alan was ordered to undergo a psychiatric exam. I mean, he went to trial pretty quick.

Yeah. Yeah, it happened quickly. The DA, Robbie Owens announced that he planned to seek the death penalty. At the initial hearings, Alan's attorney said that he was at best very slow and told the judge his client was mentally ill and should not receive the death penalty. Now, Alan did receive a capital murder charge because the murders were committed by one act

or pursuant to one scheme or course of conduct. While he was awaiting trial, Allen's mother visited him in prison. And according to her, he seemed like he didn't fully understand why he was there. And she said he was talking to her Gibbs about being worried that he was missing his favorite TV shows. Okay. If that is true and it's not an act. And both of those have to exist. Right.

That's somebody who does not. understand what's going on. Well, I think his family even said that they felt he was out of touch with reality. Well, again, if those two things are true, he was out of touch with reality. Yeah. Most people would be consumed with worry about their upcoming murder trial, not worried that they're going to miss Matlock or CSI. I don't even know what shows were on in 1999, but survive.

No Survivor was not yet. Whatever show was out. If you're weighing the two an upcoming murder trial against missing your TV shows, it's a pretty easy decision on where your concern's going to be. Yeah, for sure. You're talking about the rest of your life. I think they had digital recording by 1999. I won't swear to it.

But, and I'm not making light of it. I'm just trying to figure out. And I think you have to. Number one, how much of this is true? Because that's key. We know when you're talking about a defense that revolves around mental illness, whether somebody is legally, mentally impaired, not able to understand, you know, what's going on or the consequences of their actions, people sometimes put that on. We know that.

Well, absolutely. Yeah. So I think that's a key question that you have to answer. And then also, you know, you're, you're hearing this from his mother, right? His mother's telling newspapers and different people this. So you, you have to ascertain the veracity of that as well. Jury selection began June 12th, 2000. And this was a high profile case, Gibbs.

I mean, number one, we talked about the fact that it, it had received quite a bit of media coverage, not only nationally, but internationally. I sure did. So jury selection was a very serious affair. Potential jurors had to fill out a 14 page questionnaire. They were asked questions about gun ownership, their opinions about Alan Miller, and their opinions on capital punishment. I think the capital punishment question is pretty universal.

If you're seeking the death penalty, you want to know what a juror's stances on capital. punishment. Kind of important. And I get the gun ownership, if you're talking about a murder that involved a gun that might be important when you're going through jury selection to know what somebody's stances on that. If they come out and say, guns should be outlawed or nobody should have a gun or, you know, something like that, that might go into your process of selecting a jury.

The trial began June 15th. 2000. State forensics expert Angelo della Manna testified for the prosecution. He determined that Lee was shot three times in the chest, once in the shoulder and once in the face. And, you know, we talked about it, right? He managed to crawl about 20 feet down a hallway to try to escape. But ultimately, it was Lee's head wound that killed him. It took Scott about 15 to 20 minutes to, to bleed out. Terry's heart wound was fatal, but he may have lived as long as 15 minutes. So basically they all suffered. They did because they all lived, what, somewhere in the neighborhood of around 15 minutes. Yeah. You're talking about bleeding out, a fatal head wound,

but living for 15 minutes, all very brutal. And you're right. I think all three of these men suffered quite a bit. Johnny Cobb testified that he had no idea what the rumors that Alan mentioned were about. Andy Adderholt also testified he had only been working at post air gas for four days when the shooting occurred and didn't know who Alan was or why he'd have any problems with Terry Jarvis. And Gibbs, this might have been one of the reasons why Alan let Andy go. We kind of touched on it, right? I don't think he had a beef with Andy, but, you know, how could he have? The guy had only been there, what, three or four days? Right. And never met him. And they'd never met. So Allen's defense attorney was a guy by the name of Mickey Johnson.

Johnson argued that Allen did commit the shootings, but that he was a tortured soul with a personality disorder. Alan thought he'd been slighted by what Johnson called perceived events. Johnson never called on any witnesses, and he attacked the prosecution's display of crime scene photos, which he called excessive. Well, look, if you are the prosecution, why wouldn't you want to show those to the jury? I'd say excessive. It is excessive, because this is what the defendant did to these guys. Yeah. I mean, if you're allowed to get them in, you get them all in. Yeah. You want the jury to see exactly how brutal these murders were. You want to show them a photograph of a 15 to 20 foot trail of blood. And then describe how one of the victims crawled for their life. That's powerful stuff.

Johnson's defense was solely based on mental health argument. Dr. Charles Scott, a forensic psychiatrist, submitted evidence claiming Alan was mentally ill at the time of the offenses. He suffered from delusional disorder that impaired his rational thinking. The doctor said that Alan believed people talked negatively about him and spread rumors that he was gay. But Dr. Scott admitted that he did not believe. Allen was delusional enough to qualify for insanity under Alabama law. During Dr. Scott's interview with Alan, he learned that in the weeks leading up to the shooting, he was agitated about perceived harassment from his coworkers.

Alan told Dr. Scott that on the morning of August 5th, he felt what he called an increased feeling of pressure. He said he wasn't thinking about shooting anyway. one. But when Lee smarted off to him, he said it was like the straw that broke the camel's back. After he shot the two men, all he wanted was to shoot Terry Jarvis. So he drove over and did it. And Gibbs, he said that when it was over, it was as if the pressure had been lifted off of him and everything was calm again. Dr. Scott said that he believed the murders weren't planned. But the prosecution argued they were because of the fact that Alan had a gun in his car.

You know, we've heard similar statements in other cases before where it's that straw that broke the camels back, right? It's like things have been building up over time and finally it blows. Yeah, there's like the one thing, the spark that ignites everything. I think that's what Alan was basically saying. Now, let's get to this question of plan versus unplanned. I don't have all the facts, but I would have to think that that would probably hinge on whether Alan routinely carried a gun in his car all the time. It didn't sound to me as though he did.

It sounded to me from the research as though he was. he specifically packed the gun to take with him to work that morning. Yeah. So, you know, that's leading you in the area of premeditation. If he just carried a gun in his console every day. That's one thing.

And somebody smarted off to him and he went out and got it. Okay, to me, that's, it's not great. You still killed somebody. But when you're talking about the area of premeditation, I think it makes a huge difference.

Multiple news outlets said that, by the end of the two-day trial, Alan's attorneys had all but conceded his guilt. The jury only took about 20 minutes of deliberation to find Alan Miller guilty of capital murder. And it was said that Alan showed no emotion as the jury read their verdict. On June 17, 2000, the jury recommended the death penalty. The vote was 10 to 2 after about three hours of deliberation. on July 31st, Alan was sentenced to death by electrocution by the circuit court judge. On August 1st of that year, the circuit court appointed Allen new counsel.

Alan's new counsel filed a motion for a retrial on the grounds that the verdict violated the law and that there was not enough evidence. And I even read somewhere Gibbs where Allen's original attorney said, yeah, I should be looked at. This whole case should be looked at. I thought it was strange that his original attorney, his trial attorney, didn't call a single witness. You know, after everything that we talked about, all of his neighbors, his friends, everything they said about him, you would have thought at least that he would have called some character witnesses to talk about their experiences with Alan Miller. If anything, it could have changed the jury's mind.

mind on the death penalty. Possibly. It could have helped to make jurors see Allen as more human. Yeah. Right? You have all these people saying these wonderful, nice things about him. Why would you not want to do that? Maybe there was a strategic reason for it, but I can't really understand what it would have been. I did find it interesting that the very next day after the circuit court judge sentenced him, he gets the new attorney.

Yeah, so what does that lead you to believe that maybe the circuit court kind of already knew that his defense attorney didn't do everything they could have done? Right. That's very quick, right? The very next day. Yeah. On August 25th, his new attorney filed an amendment to the motion arguing for his mental condition at the time of the murders and the competency of his trial counsel. And again, we see that quite a bit. We do.

Right. Original trial counsel is always scrutinized. Happens all the time, especially in death penalty cases where there's all these appeals. On February 21st, 2001, after a hearing, the circuit court denied Allen's motion for a new trial. But there was no written order. And they didn't make any specific findings of fact. This meant that the Superior Court had to remand the case to the trial court to make the written findings of fact.

Allen's next appeal was decided on January 6, 2004. The case was remanded for additional action. The circuit court complied and submitted and amended sentencing and an order denying the motion for a new trial this time in writing. In 2009, Shelby County DA Robbie Owen spoke to the Shelby County. reporter about the 10-year anniversary of the case. He said, in this case, the victims had not done anything wrong. It's heart-wrenching for all of us and very difficult when you have a case with multiple

victims. It was very cold and very calculated. And it was a case that demanded we ask for the death penalty. I mean, look, even if the victims did do something wrong, certainly didn't deserve to be shot the death. No, absolutely not. When you say something wrong, you're talking about spreading rumors? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if everybody was shot for spreading rumors, our population would be very, very low. Yeah, we'd be in a lot of trouble, wouldn't we? Scott Yancey and Terry Jarvis were described as loving family men who were just trying to make an honest living. Lee left behind his wife, Tara. His mother, Sue Holdbrooks, told the Shelby County Register, we still have good memories of him. growing up. He was just full of life. Scott had a wife and two children, Tristan and Lauren. All the victims families met with each other to try to make peace with what happened. Sue said it was

just a tragedy, a terrible tragedy. We don't understand why it happened, but you just have to go on with your life. I have a peace about it myself, but it's still difficult. That's a great statement. It's a great statement from like an emotional standpoint. These are very tough losses to deal with. Yeah. But you do have to go on. You grieve, you do all those things, but you have to go on and live your life. Everybody does.

Doesn't mean it's easy, but you got to find a way to do it. Allen's latest appeal was decided on August 27th, 2020. When the court affirmed the denial of his habeas corpus petition, as of 2021, Alan has served just over 21 years on Holman Prison's death row. So, I think many people believe that Alan suffered from delusional disorder, a psychiatric disorder defined as a type of serious mental illness in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. I guess it used to be called paranoid disorder.

Right. And it's definitely a form. of psychosis. It's characterized by unshakable beliefs in something untrue and often involves non-bizarre delusions or something that could occur in real life. So basically, I think these delusions, they can come from something that is somewhat true. Like a joke or a rumor. Right.

But they get exaggerated in a person's mind. People with delusional disorder can often function normally. apart from the subject of their delusions. And generally don't behave oddly. Delusional disorder is rare and develops in middle to late life. It can be triggered by stress. One aspect of delusional disorder is persecutory delusions, basically when someone believes that others are out to get them.

Okay. This does sound potentially like something that Alan may have been suffering. from. Yeah, I can see that. I think the problem is it's impossible for anyone, but a mental health professional to diagnose Alan. We can't do it, obviously, but it's hard not to think that he could have been suffering from some sort of delusions at the time of the shootings. I mean, he had no anger problems. He was a nice person, but do you really think that co-workers spread rumors about him? Yeah, I don't know that they did. I think maybe a. a better question is, could the idea form in his mind that his coworkers were spreading rumors about

him? And could that have triggered him enough to commit murder? Is it kind of like when you walk into that room and all of a sudden people get quiet? And you naturally assume that everybody was talking about or whoever was talking about you and that's the only reason they got quiet. Or they, someone leans over and whispers on somebody else's ear, why they both look at you and you're like, it's talking about me? You must be talking about me because I'm the only one here. Yes, exactly right. Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? So, you know, as we wrap this thing up, there's no doubt that Alan Miller killed three individuals. That's not being contested. I think what people are asking is whether or not he had, you know, some sort of mental illness at the time that he

committed the murders and whether he should have received the death penalty. You know, if he was mentally ill, if he did have a mental illness, should he be sitting on death row and should he be put to death? You know, those are big questions. Yeah. I think to go along with those questions, people, you know, may ask, was he faking? his delusions to hide what then would have been carefully planned and calculated murders. I think why people find this case so strange is because you have all of these people, you know, talking about this man in glowing terms, you don't have this big long rap sheet, right?

You don't have this big long history of violence. So you have to ask the question. What rumors and harassment at work could cause such a supposedly nice guy like Allen to snap? Or was this guy, you know, was it an act all along? Was he really not a nice guy? Was he hiding his true self the entire time? That's the question we ask about serial killers, right? The neighbor tells the paper, wow, I can't believe that this guy killed 40.000.

people. He carried my groceries in. I've known him for 20 years. Yeah. People wear masks. People are able to hide who they really are sometimes deep down inside. But this guy wasn't a serial killer. It was almost as if he snapped one day. And I still have a lot of questions about this case. I really do. Yeah. I mean, clearly if he was a serial killer, right, Johnny and Andy would have been dead that day too. or if he was just intent on committing a massacre. Why be selective if your intent is just to go there and create havoc and kill? No, he only targeted the people that he only targeted very specific people. Was it because they were spreading rumors about him or was it because he perceived that they

were spreading rumors about him or was it something completely different, you know, he was jealous about the routes or whatever and all this other stuff just came out after the fact. But regardless of what it was, it's not justified. No, no, the murders aren't justified. I think that's a given. My question is, should he be on death row? Should he be one day in the future put to death? My honest opinion is if he truly is mentally ill, I don't think he should.

He should be in prison for the rest of his life. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not into putting to death people with, with, uh, mental illness. I, I struggle with that. And it's a pretty big debate. It is a huge debate. So you've got people on both sides of that fence. Obviously, you have people on both sides of the fence about whether we should be putting anyone to death. Right. I just don't know if anyone can prove that. And if they did, would it make a difference, right? Would that be something that could be brought up on? another appeal, would it change his sentence? I don't know.

I don't know. But I think it is one of the fascinating parts of this case. It is. But that's it, Gibbs, for our episode on Alan Miller. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear. Iceland? Seriously.

You do a story from Iceland before New Zealand. Of course they have a low murder rate. It's so cold after where there's layers of clothing. You can't stab them through it. Come on, throw us. Why don't you do stories about New Zealand? You've bitten by a king when you were little or something. You have fabulous murders.

Please throw us a bone. Keep New Zealand time checking. We're in the Times only here. Okay, go back. That was one of the first ones that I listened to. Yeah. After we put out the most recent episodes, and we do need to do a case in New Zealand. I don't think we've been there in TCAT.

I think we've been there on Unsolved. We have a few times. Yeah, but not on TrueCom all time. And we need to rectify that situation. Hi, my name is Ashley Thorntner. I'm from Testa, Virginia and I'm listening to the Riley Brothers case. I'm a fairly new listener, so that's why I'm so far behind.

And I stopped listening when y'all said something about the 57-year-old that was the first victim and y'all said that it was fairly normal for a older couple who have been together for a long time and one of them died for them to have a heart attack, which is actually really funny because, not really funny, but really coincidental because today is actually a one-year anniversary of a couple from my hometown who were married for seven years and both of them passed away today. It was the husband passed first and then within the hour his wife had passed. So I just thought it was really cool and just thought it would be cool if you all knew that too. So keep your own time taken. Well, we appreciate you sharing that story with

this. I don't want to say it's common, but I do think it happens quite a bit. Sure. And I don't know what the phenomena is. I don't know what you call it. I don't know if there's science behind it. But it's almost as if you spent 50, 60, 70 years with a person day in, day out. And that person is gone. I've kind of seen it with one of my grandparents. Yeah. It's almost as though the will is just not there sometimes because they miss that person so badly. And I don't know if that's part of it, but I do think it does happen. It's kind of like the notebook. Hey, Mike and Givie.

This is Andy. I'm from the UK. Been listening to your podcast for coming up to six or seven months now. Absolutely loving it. Great to hear some of the UK stories. One story that I grew up with as a child was the case of Sarah Payne. It was a child abduction and murder that happened in the early 2000s. And it kind of shaped my childhood because as kids we're all scared that we're not going to get snatched.

So that would be a good one to cover if you could. And also Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, I'm not sure if you heard of those, as well. If you are in London for the CrimeCon, give me a shout. I'd love to have a drink with you. Go to the pub and I'll

show you a good time. Keep your own time ticking. Well, first of all, thank you for the suggestions. We'll look into that. We're not going to CrimeCon in London because they didn't invite us. They did not. Nobody reached out to us and said, hey, do you want to go to CrimeCon in London? I didn't get any communication.

But, you know, what I took from that voicemail that is interesting to me Gibbs is how many people have a case from their childhood right that they still remember today that that kind of shaped their awareness of safety and crime and a lot of people have that and they can remember it to this day even if it was 20 30 years ago yeah that's what type of impact you know that particular crime had on them their community all Yeah, you never forget those events. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Christina.

I'm calling from upstate New York. I'm an Ohio native, and I just wanted to call and thank you for the podcast. I found it in, I think it was May of 2020, and I've been listening every day since trying to catch up on all the episodes, and then I'm going to switch over to True Crime Unsolved. I'm looking forward to that. I enjoy listening to both of you, so I guess I'm teen T-Cat. Givie, you always make me laugh, and I really appreciate the way you guys pay attention to detail. I've been a true crime addict since, I think, the 90s, late 80s.

So it's wonderful to find your podcast, and you cover all of the topics that I enjoy, things that I would choose myself. I did want to say, I have a suggestion. It's a case in Cleveland. And it's Aliana de Frees, and it's a really interesting case. It's a tragic story. There's some really dark stuff there, but there's also a great celebration of her life by her family after the fact and how they choose to honor her. So I think it's a good story, and it might be interesting to all the listeners, especially being in Cleveland. Okay, I guess that's it, and I'll call again some time.

I'm trying to put together a package to send to you guys. And I just really want to thank you for all that you do. Stay safe and keep your own time picking. Thank you for the kind words and for the suggestion. We'll definitely look into that. That's not a name that is familiar to me. It doesn't mean I don't have it on the list. It's just not familiar to me right off top of my head.

Definitely have to check that one out. Yep. We had one thing in the mailbag this week. Gibbs, we received a very cool FBI challenge call. Yeah. We've never received anything like this. Very cool. It actually came from someone in the FBI who wanted to remain anonymous.

So we'll have to honor that because we don't want any legal entanglements. No, we do not. Especially you. I don't need any more. You're already wanted. Yeah. I'm entangled enough. You're entangled.

So, but we do appreciate it. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time. ticking.