True Crime All The Time - Alan Mackerly

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

In February 1996, Frank Black traveled to Florida to discuss a potential business deal. He was never seen again. Months later, his business rival Alan Mackerley was charged with murder. Without Frank's body, the prosecution had their work cut out for them trying to convict Alan.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Alan Mackerly and the murder of Frank Black. Alan had a cohort named Lisa Costello, who helped lure Frank Black to Florida. But Lisa would not cooperate with the authorities at first, making convicting Alan even harder. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 336 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. We're just coming off of the Memorial Day weekend. We talked about it on our Patreon episode this week.

But it was really nice to have the kids all under one roof. It's just something that my wife and I don't experience much anymore. It's always good to get to fans. family together. It is. Yeah, it really is. Hey, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Kim Marsh. Hey, Kim. Tamala Galang. Hey, appreciate that, Tamala. Phil D's nuts. Well, okay, D-Nuts. Lindsay. Lindsay. What's going on, Lindsay? Carla Moore. Hey, Carla. Caitlin O'Callaghan jumped out at our highest level. Wow, well, thank you, O'Callaghan. Rasmus Franzen. What's up, Franson? Amy Forte. Oh, you got some forte. Travis. What's going on, Travis? Melissa Bosworth. Hey, Melissa. Amber Beechie. Hey, Amber. Heather Haffner. What's going on? Halfner. Dan Johnson. Hey, Dan. Vance Bailey. Hunter. Hunter. Hunter. Wuchin Mackam-Boranger. Oh, you want me to try to say that, huh? I'm just going to go with Vouchain. Okay. Yeah. Wendy Mac. Hey, Wendy. Tiffany Bayle. Appreciate that, Tiffany. And last but not least, Tiffany Sloan. And there's another Tiffany. Yeah. So we appreciate all that new Patreon support. And then if we go back into the vault. This week we selected Kathy Grop. Hey, Kathy. Yeah, appreciate all that.

We had no PayPal donations since last week. You know, support donations. It's slowed down a little bit. There's no doubt about it. I think a lot of it's the economy and stuff like that, but ads as well. So, you know, podcasting in general right now is a little tough, but we'll make it through. Yeah, and we definitely appreciate all of you and keep telling people about us. Yeah, it helps out a lot.

Right now, we have an episode out on Unsolved where we're headed to Panama, but we're actually discussing two young women from the Netherlands who went there to volunteer. They went out for a hike and never returned. I haven't been to Panama a long time. Not back since your CIA days, probably. Yeah, when I was digging that canal out. Oh, that's, yeah. You and, is that Teddy Roosevelt?

Yeah. Hand in hand, side by side. So there are a lot of theories, you know, we're going to get into all the details in this one. So definitely check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about a man named Alan McRley. In February, 1996, Frank Black traveled to Florida to discuss a potential business deal.

He was never seen again. He vanished. Months later, his business rival, Alan McRley was charged with. murder. So, you know, we kind of know what we're in store for here, but, uh, you know, we're going to get into all the details. Frank Black was Alan McRleys competitor in the charter bus industry. That seems like something that you should have gotten into. It could have been kind of interesting. Lucrative. You would, you would think. Now, there's a big outlay, right? Because you got to buy these expensive buses. Right. You got to keep them up and hire drivers, but okay, I see where you

could make some money. But I got our tour bus just sitting out there. That's true. We never used it. I don't know why you drive it to my house every week. You have a truck, a smaller truck. I'm just trying to keep it, you know, from seizing, you know, you got to use it or you lose it kind of a deal. Okay, I just assumed it was because it has a huge picture of your face on either side of the bus. That too. And it's a little off-putting to the rest of my my neighbors. I kind of dig it, man. In 1996, Alan McRley was 52 and Frank Black was 58 years old. Alan and Frank met four decades earlier.

Frank was driving a school bus and Alan was a high school student who wanted to learn about the business. They became friends and Alan introduced Frank to the woman. He would eventually marry. But their relationship deteriorated. because they challenged each other for contracts in New Jersey school districts. I just thought it was interesting that, you know, this guy's a bus driver, the other guy's high school student, they become friends, they become, you know, eventually become competitors.

And then obviously we know at some point one person's going to kill the other. He goes from friendly to really bad. To murderly. Alan McRley owned Byron Bus Lines in Hepatcong, New Jersey. He was very wealthy. Numerous sources describe him as a millionaire murderer. Interesting nickname. Well, it is.

And what does it mean to be a millionaire? You know, when you and I were young, the thought of a millionaire was like Thurston Howl. Right. On Gilligan's Island. It was, you know, Bill Gates. And we didn't think in terms of billions, but he was worth billions at some point. A millionaire seems so, you know, think of lifestyles of the rich and famous. Remember that show?

I sure do, yeah. But really, if you think about it today, a lot of people are really millionaires. There is a lot of them. If you factor in, you know, their real estate holdings and their IRAs and savings accounts and all that, there are a lot of millionaires. Hey, with this real estate market over the last year and a half, a lot of people became millionaires just based off of that. Yeah.

Yeah. the way that they've they've shot up. Now, it's still a big deal. Don't get me wrong. I just think, you know, obviously to what it means to be a millionaire today in 2023 is not the same as it is it was in 1996 and certainly not the same as it would have been in the 60s or 70s. Right.

Harder to achieve back then. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Frank Black owned the Frank L. Black bus service. His business operated in Sussex County, New Jersey. Frank Black was said to have not been popular with the school bus community in the 80s because he underbid competitors to get their routes and allegedly committed school district violations.

In 1995, Frank got a major contract over Allen and Allen said he was going to bury him. This is according to the Charlie Project. So, you know, the one thing that kind of jumped out of me right away was that these independent businessmen are kind of involved in the school bus game. I've never seen that around here. You know, school buses are operated by the school system. The school system. So I don't know if this is a New Jersey thing. I don't know if it happens in other places around the country. Or it could have been the time of the, you know, that time, you know, in the 80s, 90s, maybe that's what they did in that area. Well, I was going to say they didn't do it here. Yeah.

because they've always been kind of operated by the school system. The state theorized that Alan tricked Frank into coming to South Florida from New Jersey and then once he arrived, he killed it. I think I've said this before in different ways, but if your plan is to ultimately kill someone you know, probably not a great idea to go around threatening them to say that you're going to quote unquote bury them. Yeah, not good. The best best is to be like,

I like your buddies. No, no problem. Give some advice. Like, hey, glad you got that contract. I hope it all works out for you. Let me know what I can do to help you out. Well, that falls in line with that old dairy, right? Keep your enemies closer.

Yeah. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer, I think is the saying. That's what I do. Some, yeah, I'm sure it is. The problem is you have so many enemies. that you have a lot of people you need to keep clothes. Yeah, sadly.

In late February 1996, a woman from Florida called Frank and said that she was interested in purchasing school vans. She invited him to Florida to discuss the deal. The woman identified herself as Mia Giordana. She said she was representing an exporting company that wanted to ship 60 conversion vans to Chile. She arranged to pick Frank up at the airport. and take him to his accommodations for the evening,

then they would meet the principals in the deal for dinner. Now, I'm always leery of anyone who says they're an exporter, and especially leery when people say they're an importer exporter. Okay, George. Yeah. I just, I got to be honest.

Yeah. According to a business associate of blacks, the woman told him to look for her when he got off the plane. She described herself as five foot tall, all legs, blonde, and the hottest thing he'll see when he gets off the plane. And this comes straight from court documents, McRley versus State. Clearly she's very confident. Yes. Frank was last seen on February 24, 1996, boarding a Kiwi Airlines flight to the Palm Beach International Airport.

He never came home. He was reported missing after his family and friends didn't hear from him Frank's daughter later testified that her father planned to come home on Sunday, February 25th, or Monday the 26th. Both of Frank's daughters testified that it was unusual for them to go several days without talking to their dad and he was in what they called constant contact with the office when he traveled. And I think that's true of a lot of important businessmen. You know, they can't kind of separate or detach themselves from the office for too long. No, because it's too critical for their business. Yeah, they want to know what's going on. They're checking in all the time.

But also it's a personality, a lot of them. They had that type A. Yes. Yeah. Driven. I want to kind of steer the ship at all times. apparently he had a scheduled meeting with one of his daughters on February 27th, and he didn't pack for a long trip. Both daughters testified that Frank avoided contact with Alan McRle.

Probably a good idea since this is a guy who said he was going to bury you. But I think what you're getting here from his daughters is, okay, he had commitments and he didn't pack much. So he wasn't planning on being away for really longer than a day or two. Yeah, longer than he had to. Sally Roberts, Frank's girlfriend and the office manager said that he told her he planned to get home on Sunday or Monday. She noted that it was very unusual for Frank not to have contact with his businesses. So again, you know, his girlfriend is saying pretty much the same thing that his daughters said. Now, she also said that a week before he left, a woman named me,

Mia Giordano called Frank's office several times. Mia was willing to stay on hold for a long time, rather than leaving a callback number, which Frank's employees thought was odd. Some people are just like that. They don't want to give you their number. We went through that. You know,

when I was working at an office, people would call in, ask for somebody and you try to get their number, and they just said, no, you know, they didn't want to do it for some reason. But when you talk about that in connection with,

let's say a case like this. Doesn't your mind kind of automatically go to another place, which is, yeah, there's a reason why this person doesn't want to give her phone number is because she doesn't want to be identified or, you know, have the number traced or, you know, anything lead back to her. The AP reported that investigators quickly started focusing on Frank Black's business associates who disagreed with the way that he undercut competition in Sussex, New Jersey. So it sounds like, you know, it wasn't just Allen. There were other businesses and this kind of same line. Some of them weren't happy with the way that Frank Black conducted his business with this kind

of undercutting of prices. But all right, isn't that business? You know, usually the best price wins. It is. I mean, it's what you would do in a business or should do, but you also have to have some stance with some morals. Like, this is what I'm willing to do. I won't go beyond this. But why is it morally wrong to charge less than the other guy? Well, it's not. I mean, that's the whole reason, basically how Walmart kind of got started back in the day, right? They charged less than their competitors, and that's how they grew. According to the Charlie Project, Frank was planning to sell his business, but decided to meet with this Mia Giordano for one final deal before he retired. The police examined his phone records and found that the calls from Mia actually came from Alan McRley and his girlfriend, 33-year-old Lisa Costello.

So again, back to not wanting to leave your number. Okay. Eventually it's going to come out. that it wasn't, in fact, Mia Giordano, it was somebody else. And obviously, they did ultimately link it to Alan and his girlfriend. But Alan McRleigh was married. It was his second marriage. He was splitting his time between his home in a Pat Kong, New Jersey and his home in Stewart, Florida. McRley's wife divorced him after his arrest. And how many times do we hear that? You hear it a lot. Well, and we hear it a lot because,

of all the things that come out after someone is arrested and police start giving out information. All right. You got a girlfriend. Your girlfriend allegedly is involved in this thing with you. The wife's not going to be real happy about that. Of course not. Number one, that you're being accused of killing someone. And then secondly, but maybe not too far down the list that you're cheating on her.

Not going to bear well. No. Lisa Costello was arrested. June 13, 1996. At a hearing, Lisa was warned that she would be arrested if she didn't tell the police, which she knew about Frank Black's disappearance. She refused, and the judge declared her to be in contempt of court. Investigators became suspicious of Lisa because she used Frank's credit card to make a call

after he arrived in West Palm Beach. This is according to the Palm Beach Post. Lisa was first subpoenaed. on May 24th to give a statement, but she invoked her Fifth Amendment rights and refused to talk. It's always a problem, I think. You're kind of making people believe

you have some type of guilt. Yeah, but you're also one that kind of says maybe sometimes that's the way to do it, right? Don't give the police anything. Of course, yeah. And I think you take that guidance from your attorney. Yes. Yeah, I think so too.

Assistant State Attorney Robert Bellinger said that her Fifth Amendment rights weren't applicable because she would automatically receive immunity if she cooperated. But Lisa's attorney said Bellinger didn't offer her immunity and only guaranteed her statements could not be used against her. And those are two very different things, right? Immunity is you can't, you can't touch me for X. Exactly. Yep. No matter what I say, no matter what I confess to, I have immunity. But if, If you're only saying that the statements that I give cannot be used against me, that doesn't mean that I won't be charged and you'll use other evidence to try to convict me.

Exactly. They can find additional evidence to go that path. They will. Yeah. They just won't be able to use those specific statements. But those statements could lead them to the other evidence. Agent Michael Driscoll of the FDLE testified that Lisa Costello and Alan Macerly's phone records indicated that several calls were made from their homes to Frank Black's

residence and business before he traveled to Florida. According to McRley versus State, phone records showed that on February 24th, McRleys cell phone made several calls to Kiwi Airlines in New Jersey and the Hertz rental car in West Palm Beach. I mean, this is playing out like some espionage thriller movie. Tom Clancy novel. Yeah, Tom Clancy novel. I mean, to me, what you can really see that they're doing is they're setting Frank up, right? This fake business deal. Meet this woman at a certain place. They know where he's going to be. Lisa Costello picked up a rental car from Hertz on February 24th. She paid cash and returned the car on February 26th. And as I just mentioned, Frank's card was used at a phone and fax machine at an embassy suite hotel in Riviera Beach, Florida, between 1.30 and 2.30 a.m. on February 25th.

Agent Driscoll said that a night clerk at the hotel identified Lisa Costello as the woman who used the car at the phone and fax machine. Right. Pretty damning evidence. It's really damning evidence. Now, I want to talk about paying tax. cash to rent a car. I didn't even know you could do that in 1996. No, you can't do it now. No, they want to have that credit card on file. Yeah. So that when you crash it up, which you've been known to do, easy. They've got some way to, uh, to try to, you know,

recoup some of their, their funds, but a lot of people used to pay for hotel rooms in cash. I don't even know if you can do that anymore. I think so either. I think they like to have a credit card on file as well for, they call that incidentals? Incidentals. Which is you eating all the pistachios or tearing up the room or anything edible, gone. But what it does is it makes it really tough to kind of give a fake name,

you know, go incognito. And that's why I always talk about how I think it's just so much harder today to kind of go on the run than it was in years past because of, you know, everybody wants a credit card. There seems to be a digital footprint with just about everything you do. Think about vending machines nowadays.

Take credit cards or debit cards. Some just take credit cards only. Alan McRleley was questioned several weeks after Frank Black was reported missing. He denied knowing Mia Giordano or anyone fitting her description. And we mentioned the description. I think you would know if you knew anyone that fit that. description. Oh, absolutely. In August 1996, Alan's close friend and pilot, William Anderson, who would become a star witness at his later trial, contacted authorities through his lawyer

and said that he had information about Frank Black. Anderson also owned a bus company in New Jersey, but he retired eight years earlier. He said he had known Allen since 1975 and that they were best friends. Anderson said that he had an arrangement where he flew McRley's plane and was also allowed to use it a few days after Frank Black went missing. Macrily called him and asked him to fly over the ocean to look for something. Anderson asked him what he needed to look for and Macerly admitted to killing Frank Black and dumping his body into the ocean about 12 to 22 miles from shore. Macerley wanted to fly over the ocean to see if Frank's body was floating. Anderson discouraged him from doing an air search because they would have to report the flight plane. Okay. So there's a couple of things here

that I want to touch on. You know, first of all, we talk about this in quite a few unsolved cases where, you know, it just kind of takes one person to come forward and kind of give this great piece of information and all of a sudden open the case. And all of a sudden kind of open things up. I'm not sure if this is that great piece of information. But if what Anderson said is true, it's very damaging, right, to Alan McAleys case. He's essentially saying that the guy admitted to the murder

and then later wanted to fly out to where he dextered the body. I'm using Dexter now as a verb, meaning he dumped it in the ocean. Right. Folded Dexter. Just to see if it was flowed. But one of the things that I thought was strange was that, you know, Anderson doesn't say,

oh my gosh, I can't believe you did that. He says, now, you probably shouldn't do the air search because, you know, we're going to have to report that. Now, obviously, he later on does contact the authorities. Macrily eventually told Anderson that an accomplice brought Black to his house. He said that when Frank recognized him, he grabbed him in a headlock and took a gun and shot him through the head turning his face away to avoid debris or splatter or whatever. This comes straight from court testimony in McRley versus State. But this is also the testimony of William Anderson. This is one person saying this is what, you know, they were told.

He also said that Allen said there was blood all over the walls, ceiling, carpet, and floors. It was so bad that he had to remove. the carpet. That is really bad then. It's also very smart. Yeah, well, it really is. I mean, you and I never want to try to tell people how to get away with anything, but I know we have talked before about, you know, just how hard it is to clean up massive amounts of blood. And I think what a lot of people don't realize is, you know, number one, just because you can't see it with the naked eye doesn't mean that forensic technicians aren't going to be able to come in

and use all their fancy equipment and kind of light it up. And then number two, when you're talking about carpet, you might not see it, but it might have seeped down through the carpet and be trapped underneath against the subfloor. Could be. Could be in the duckwork. You don't know. You don't know.

You know, unless you're going to do a complete deep cleaning. and you still don't even know if that's going to be good. No, I don't know that it is. On the surface it would be, but if they were to ever rip up that carpet, we've seen in cases where the blood has been found underneath. Anderson agreed to wear a recording device and try to get McRleigh to confess again, but McRle didn't confess the second time.

But that didn't stop police from arresting him. Allen was arrested at home on August 29, 1996, and charged with first-degree murder, murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and kidnapping. All right. Those are rough charges. If convicted, you're going to be doing some serious time. Yeah.

Possibly the rest of your life or maybe even the death penalty. On September 17, 1996, Alan McRley was indicted for first degree murder and kidnapping. They dropped the two counts of conspiracy, which were originally lodged against him. a prosecutor said it was unnecessary because first degree murder carries a possible death sentence and kidnapping alone carries a life sentence. On May 30th, 1997, Alan McAerly was charged with trying to arrange the murder of Bill Anderson. William Anderson and his wife were put in witness protection. So, you know, he's already been charged.

Right. With the murder of Frank Black. he's been in jail, let's say, for six, seven, eight months. And then he gets charged with trying to, you know, arrange a hit on Bill, who, as we already said, is going to be one of the big witnesses for the state against him. So you can see the motivation there. Oh, for sure. A lot of motivation.

But the other thing that I, that I think it does is it doesn't prove that you killed Frank Black, but it sure as hell doesn't look. good. When you get caught trying to range a hit on the state star witness, why would you need to do that unless you thought you were in deep trouble and had to pull a Hail Mary? Well, that's the only reason you would do it, right? I can't think of another one. Yeah. So it doesn't declare guilt, but it kind of screams it out. According to Martin County undersheriff Marvin Mann, five past and current inmates reported that McRley offered to help them postpone. bond, hire lawyers, and offered to pay them up to $40,000 to kill Anderson.

We mentioned this guy was a millionaire. Sure. So he can afford it. He had the funds to, you know, make some of this stuff happen. Detectives learned about this plot when they were looking into allegations that corrections deputies gave Allen's cigarettes a lighter and nail clippers. Two corrections officers, Troy Roberts and Ellen Meadows were arrested in. charged with entering contraband into a correctional facility.

A third deputy was put on administrative leave without pay because of allegations. He knew about the cigarettes and didn't report it. Well, I mean, it's all a no-no, right? You're not allowed to do that kind of stuff. Nail clippers, though. I don't know. Cigarettes? I mean,

Cigarettes. Can't you get cigarettes in prison? I don't know if you came any more, but in 96, you probably could. Yeah. I don't understand the nail clippers, man. some of these people's nails could be so long, they'd be a weapon by themselves. Well, there has to be a way.

Yeah. But maybe they have special safety. Probably. That you can't use to like, you know, sharpen and shank someone. Well, and some of those nail clippers have that little metal file thing that swings out. Maybe that can be made into something dangerous.

I'm sure it could be. But that's pretty rough to, you know, be arrested, lose your job for bringing in six. cigarettes and nail clippers. Now, I'm sure they were paid for them, but man, why risk it? It's not worth a risk. At least two inmates told investigators that Allen confessed to killing Frank Black, FDL agent Mike Driscoll said the information was reliable because not all the inmates knew each other or were even in jail at the same time. Two inmates were out of jail due to McRle's help, but these inmates told investigators they didn't intend to kill Bill

Anderson. A court document obtained by the Palm Beach Post stated that in February, McRley's daughter gave the mother of one inmate $1,000 to pay her son's bond. His daughter thought the money was a loan. The document also stated that McRle's former cellmate was released from jail and put on community control after McRley paid for his defense. Again, money talks. Of course it does. And anybody who doesn't believe that is just kidding themselves. People who have money can do things that the rest of us can't have a lot of money, I should say. Definitely gives them power. Yeah, with money comes power. And people are willing to do things for money. I thought it was interesting that, you know, some of these guys that got out were, um, were talked to by investigators and said, no, I don't, we don't, we don't

intend to kill Bill. We were asked to, but we're not going to. We're not going to. Yeah, that's probably the right thing to say, since they already know that he asked you to do it. So carrying it out now, whether you were going to or not, would just be foolish. On June 13th, 1997, Bill Anderson testified on video. A judge ordered that his testimony would be played at trial.

If something happened to him, in light of the alleged. murder plot. I mean, think about this guy and what he has hanging over his head. You know, he came forward. He told the police what he, what he knew. The next thing is that Alan McRleley wants him dead. He's hired four, five, six different people. Whoever gets it done gets, what, 40 grand. And then the judge says, you know what, we better tape your testimony. Just in case something happens to you. You talk about looking over both shoulders. Oh, you'd have to be nerve wracking. I don't think my head would swivel enough. I don't think so either. But here's something that we have talked about, which is why don't sometimes people come forward? And it could be because of this exact type of thing.

You know, are you really putting yourself in danger by coming forward and telling the authorities what you know? And you're right. I mean, obviously, you can't put yourself in danger, big time danger, depending on who you're talking about. Well, in this case, you're talking about somebody pretty powerful, somebody with money, somebody with some influence. On June 26, 1997, prosecutors dropped the solicitation to murder charge against Alan McRley because a former inmate refused to testify. Inmate Philip Pizarro said his mother was paid $1,000 to post. his bond. And he also said McRley's daughter offered to pay him $10,000 to kill Anderson. But Pizarro failed to appear to testify at the state's attorney's office because he and his wife

feared retaliation. Okay, there again, what we just talked about. On October 17, 1997, Marion Anderson, the wife of Bill Anderson, told prosecutors about her affair with Alan McRleley. The affair started in the 1980s. She decided to reveal the relationship after she realized McRley's attorney planned to bring her into the case. She said the relationship ended before she learned about Frank Black's disappearance. Bill denied knowing about the affair when he talked to investigators in 1996. He said he learned about it on October 17, 1997. So there's a lot going on. There is. That's a long time to have the wool pull over your eyes. So it started sometime in the 80s, ran to sometime in the 90s. So I'm thinking, let's say 10 years that they

were having this affair. Now here's Bill who goes to the authorities. And then later finds out that the person he's talking about has been having an affair with his wife. And according to him, he had no idea. Alan McAarly's murder trial began with jury selection. On January 20th, 1998, his attorneys admitted for the first time on January 27th that Frank Black was dead. But defense attorney Mickey Ratson told the jury, as reported by the Palm Beach Post, Alan McAarly was not present.

when Frank Black died, Alan McAerly never intended for any harm to come to Frank Black, and Alan McRley did not kill Frank Black. She called the prosecution's theory absolutely preposterous. Proposterous. Yeah, or preposterous. But you can go preposterous if you want to. I'm using the old version. Is that the old version?

Yeah. I mean, what else is a defense attorney supposed to say? You guys are really close, but not quite right? No. No. You're full of it. Nothing you're saying is true. Your whole case is bogus. This is absolutely preposterous. Ratson also admitted that Mia Giordano was actually Lisa Costello, who had been incarcerated since June 1996 for refusing to tell the police what she knew. So, I mean, you're talking about spending almost two years in jail? Yeah. for contempt of court. That tells you a lot about that person, though. Well, it tells you a lot about her ties to Alan Mcerley, that she's willing to give up her freedom to protect him. Now, maybe she wouldn't have if they would have given her immunity,

because I think that's what she was after. Ratson told the jury that there was no murder and that Frank came to Florida to discuss selling his company to Alan. she didn't tell the jury how or where Frank died. So this is an interesting kind of line by the defense. Right. Frank Black is dead. But Alan wasn't there when he died.

Alan didn't want Frank dead and Alan didn't kill Frank. And we're also laying it out there that there was no Mia Giordano. Those calls were made by Lisa Costello. But we're not going to tell you how. or where Frank dot? Why? Because we don't know. We can't or we won't. Look, it could be the one. Yeah, the reporting just says she didn't tell them. But why would she? How's it going to benefit her or her client? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think if you knew who killed Frank Black, would you not want to point the finger at that person and cast doubt? I think you would want to. I think you would want to too.

But so maybe you just don't know. But what you do know, or at least, what you're telling the jury is it was now. The prosecution argued that Alan McRley kidnapped, drugged, and shot Frank before dumping his body wrapped in plastic into the ocean. Phone records showed that at least a dozen calls from McRley and Costello's homes were made to Frank Black in the days before his disappearance. The defense said that Allen just wanted to get in touch with Frank Black to buy his business. and you're going to have to spin that in some way. Now, I think what kind of contradicts this or makes it a little bit hard to believe is that,

you know, most of the reporting said these guys were like sworn enemies. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, they're just talking on the phone now multiple times in the days leading up to, to Frank's disappearance.

I get it. She's saying it was all about buying Frank's company. But would Frank, Frank even have wanted to entertain the thought of selling his company to Alan, this guy that, from all accounts, he didn't like and Alan hated him. Yeah, they definitely didn't seem like they got along anymore. Or is it more likely that these calls were the Mia Giordano call? I definitely think that's a strong possibility.

McRlea's son-in-law, Robert Samandagian testified that, he helped Alan begin renovating the front area of his house around February 26th, 1996. Two weeks later, Alan decided to recarpet his entire home. The two vacuum cleaners used to clean construction debris were thrown away at the Martin County dump. So people renovate their houses.

But the timing you would have to say is interesting. Yeah. interesting, either one of the biggest coincidences or there was a reason timewise why he needed to renovate and redo the carpet. And by the way, also throw out these vacuum clean. That might tell a story. It might tell a very interesting story. Other witnesses testified that Alan bought a trash can, duct tape, trash bags and cleaning supplies on February 25th and 26th. And that Allen's boat was out at sea. So, I mean, it's not looking great for Alan. It's not. You know, would people go and buy all this stuff? Yes. But does it also seem like a murder cleanup kit? You'd have to say yes. Of course it does. Yeah.

And then, you know, if witnesses are putting you out on your boat and people are saying that you told them you dumped Frank's body out in the ocean. Okay. We're kind of putting the pieces of the puzzle. together here. Because the state had no eyewitnesses, murder weapon, or body, their case relied heavily on the testimony of Bill Anderson. Anderson testified on January 30th. Based on Anderson's testimony, prosecutors believed Black was drugged and taken to the home. According to the Associated Press, Anderson testified, Allen said he grabbed him in a headlock. He said he shot him in the the head, turning his face away to avoid debris or spatter, he was surprised at how much blood there was. He said it got all over the place, the walls, the ceiling, the floor. I do sometimes think about that. You know, when you're not talking about a serial killer, somebody experienced

who's done it multiple times, a person that only kills one individual would probably be shocked by how much blood there actually was. Well, that's a, that's a very valid point because they have no awareness around it. So, you have no idea what it's like to shoot someone in the head and what is, what's going to happen after that. I mean, really, the only thing you have to gauge it by is what you see in the movies and you just don't know if that's true or not. Yeah, and you know half the time it's, it's not totally accurate.

Macerley wrapped the body, Frank's belongings, the gun, and some weights into plastic. and dumped it in the ocean. Anderson testified that he had trouble getting the body to sink. So he dragged the body onto the boat and stabbed it several times to release some of the gases that had built up. Anderson testified that McRle said it had a horrible, horrible odor. He said he knew that Frank Black was rotten, but he had no idea he was that rotten. And he laughed about it. Just trying to think how bad that had a smell.

Yeah. I don't really want to think about it. about that. But, you know, this stabbing the body to release the gases, you've actually, you know, probably seen that in some movies or television shows. It's kind of a known thing. Right. Maybe that's where he picked it up. Who knows? Could have been. But let's not forget. This is Bill Anderson's testimony against Alan McRleley. Now, the defense came back and claimed that Anderson was a liar, that he was a recovering alcohol. who was trying to get revenge on Allen for this 10-year affair that he had with his wife.

Well, I guess that would be one reason to get revenge. I think at the very least, it's got to enter your mind. I think so, too. You can't just discount it off. Now, if Anderson's telling the truth, he didn't know about the affair at the time he went to investigate. But, you know, is that true? Is that not true?

the defense rested without calling any witnesses on February 2nd, 1998. Why would they do that? Well, because obviously they felt like the state could not prove the charges against Allen. Yeah, I don't know what else it would be. I think most of the time, that's why, you know, the defense wouldn't call any witnesses. Now, you could also have that they didn't want to call any witnesses because they didn't, you know, want those witnesses to be. put under cross. It's a possibility.

And or they just didn't have anybody that was going to help their case in any way. Well, if it's not going to help your case, you wouldn't want to bring a man just for the heck of it. Yeah. On February 3rd, 1998, Lisa Costello was charged with first degree murder and kidnapping just hours

after a judge ordered her release on the contempt charge. It's not going real well for her either. You know, she spent like a couple of years in jail or at least over a year. And then as soon as you're ordered released, boom, you're hit with first degree murder and kidnapping. In closing arguments, Assistant State Attorney Lawrence Merman told the jury that the motive was everyday common hatred, a hatred that came about in the bus business, according to the Palm Beach Post. Macrily lost a profitable contract to Black and feared Black would underbid him on a more lucrative contract in the future.

I'm also getting a real Sopranos vibe here. A little bit. You know, we're in New Jersey. It's not the trash business. It's the bus business. But there's underbidding. There's, you know, there's murder. Defense attorney Jeffrey Weiner hinted during closing arguments that Lisa Costello was

responsible for Black's death. he also suggested that Frank Black could have died from a heart attack. Okay. They're going to add that spend in there. And I think you could throw just about anything out there because you don't have a body. So, you know, there is no conclusive cause of death, right, without the body. And why not try to put it in the jury's mind that somebody else killed Frank or that he maybe even died of natural causes.

Well, that's all you need, right? Get enough out there to make the jury think, huh, maybe, maybe he's right. Maybe it was natural causes or maybe it was that heart attack. Well, because then, you know, you're not looking at first degree murder. You're not looking at kidnapping. At worst, you would be looking at mutilation of a body or disposing of a body or something like that after the fact.

Right. Jeffrey Weiner admitted that Macerley, intended for Lisa Costello to use a fake name when proposing the fake business deal to get Black to come to Florida. It was necessary because Black disliked McRly and wouldn't sell the business. Okay, we kind of talked about that, right? These guys hated each other. Why would Frank Black sell the business to Allen? Well, his defense attorney is saying he wouldn't have. So this is where the ruse came in. We had to come up or Alan had to. had to come up with a fake name to get Frank to even talk to him in Florida.

Weiner told the jury about a possible conversation between McRly and Costello on the night Frank Black died. Let's say Costello came to Allen and said, here's what happened. Let's say McRly at that point says, oh my God, what are we going to do? And she says to him, you got me into this. We can't call the police. Frank Black's already dead. You've got to help me.

So, you know, I said possible conversation. Right. I don't know where any of this is coming from. I think it's kind of made up as to, well, this could have happened. But there's nobody else saying that it happened. No. I think it's just the defense attorney offering up it to offering it up to the jury that maybe it went down this way. Here's a scenario we believe that might have happened.

Sure. Could have happened. Alan McRley was found guilty. of first-degree murder and kidnapping on February 4th, 1998. On March 23rd, he was sentenced to life in prison. In January of 99, Lisa Costello's attorney reached an agreement with prosecutors. She would finally break her silence and admit her role in the murder in kidnapping of Frank Black. And if you think about it, she really held out for a long time, almost three years.

That's a pretty healthy holdout. Because most people crack, you know, pretty quickly. On January 27, 1997, Lisa told the court that she showered, dried her hair, did her makeup, and walked downstairs to find Alan sweating in near hysteria. According to the Palm Beach Post, Frank Black's body was lying on the floor in the foyer. Lisa testified, Alan kept saying, no one is ever going to believe. this and I had to do it. He told me, I don't know the whole story. It was at that time I told him,

I didn't want to know. Lisa admitted to using a fake name to lure Frank Black to Florida and admitted to using his credit cards on February 24, 1996, to send the police on a false trail. She denied knowing how Frank died or what happened to his body. She pleaded no contest to third degree murder in false imprisonment and was sentenced to 10 years in prison. Well, good. For her role in this, it should be something like that. Yeah, she definitely played a role. I think probably the most interesting part of her testimony to me is, right,

I kind of, I came down. I found Alan. He had just killed Frank, but I don't know how Frank died and I don't know what happened to his body. So true, not true. I don't know. On March 22nd, 2000, the 4th District. Court of Appeal throughout Alan McRleys kidnapping conviction.

According to the Palm Beach Post, the justices said, we remain troubled in affirming McRleys murder conviction, especially since the jury convicted McRly of kidnapping based on the state's theory of prosecution, which this court has rejected as a matter of law. Okay, that makes it sound like they're having trouble with the murder conviction, along with with already having reversed the the kidnapping conviction. Yeah, they're definitely having a hard time digesting this. And that conviction was reversed because Black came to Florida voluntarily. He technically was not kidnapped and brought to Florida.

The justices, though, did find enough evidence for the murder conviction, but said that the trial judge should have thrown out the kidnapping charge. Okay, I get that. Now, I've seen kidnapping used an evisement. variety of scenarios, you know, just the mere fact of holding someone against their will, even for a short time before you kill them, could you not call that kidnapping? I think you could. And I think they have in a lot of scenarios.

I get it. He didn't kidnap him in New Jersey and drive him to Florida. But if you're holding someone against their will in killing them. Okay. Is it technically kidnapping? I don't know. I swear we've seen it used that way in a number of cases. But I think the big thing was that they upheld the murder conviction. And it was said that the decision was based on the Florida Supreme Court's ruling in February

2000. In a Miami murder case, a burglary charge against the defendant was thrown out who was invited into the home of the couple he killed. But on February 1st, 2001, the Florida Supreme Court throughout Alan McRleys' first degree murder conviction and ordered a new trial. Now, that's interesting. They're saying, do it again. Well, it's huge, right? The kidnapping part has already been overturned. Now the Florida Supreme Court kind of throws out the murder conviction.

It's not like he's going to walk away. They're going to try him again. Of course, yeah. So what came out was that at trial. prosecutors told the jury they could convict Alan of murdering Frank as part of a deliberate plan. Or they could convict him of killing Frank as part of another crime like kidnapping. This was according to the Tampa Bay Times. The Florida Supreme Court ruled that because the kidnapping conviction was vacated,

the murder conviction also had to be reversed even if there was evidence he planned the murder. So they're not saying he didn't kill this guy or they don't believe he killed this guy. They're just saying you got to do it again because you can't tie the kidnapping in with it. Oh, they want it separate. Prosecutor said they would ask the Supreme Court to reconsider the decision. And if that failed, the state would retry mackerelly for murder. Like I said, you know they're not just going to let this guy walk. No, they can't.

In June 2001, Lisa Costello told an FDLE investigator that she saw Allen shoot Frank Black as he tried to leave the home. Lisa claimed that Alan wanted her to say Frank raped her and confessed to killing him in self-defense. But Lisa said she refused to cooperate with him. So she is changing her story because just a minute ago, we said she didn't know how Frank died. and she didn't know what happened to his body. And now at this point, she's coming out and saying that she actually saw Alan shoot Frank. That's a big revelation.

But it also came out that before Lisa entered her plea agreement in 1999, Alan paid her bills, $800,000 in attorney fees and gave her money for the canteen at the jail. I always talk about the canteen, man. People have to have their ramen. noodles and ding-dongs. They do. They do.

And if you can get them that, they'll do some stuff for you. I know you like your ding-dongs, but $800,000. Back then, man. That's a lot of money. It is. A lot of money today, but back then. But here's the thing, right? Once she went to prison, the money stopped coming in, according to the Palm Beach Post.

When Allen won a new trial, she heard rumors from women in prison that Alan wanted to have her killed so that she couldn't testify against him. Sounds like this guy wanted to kill anyone who could possibly say something bad against him at trial. I think you're right. That's because he had the money to do it. He did have the money to do it. But here's the thing that we see so often.

You're paying somebody for, let's say, they're silence. But then all of a sudden you make the decision that you're not going to pay them anymore. Well, what normally happens? That person rolls on you. They do. Because now it's in their best interest. Before you're paying all my attorney fees, you're getting me, you know, money for my canteen.

Now I've got nothing. So there's no reason for me to protect you anymore at this point. Now, did he run out of money? Or was he just kind of being dumb and making the decision that he didn't want to give out the money? What do you think was going to happen? And how many people do you have to ask to kill someone for the rumors to start flying in a women's prison that ultimately gets back to her?

Yeah, I think, you know, one's probably too many before the rumors start. Yeah. For sure, too, right? If they're not going to do it, then they're going to tell her about it. Hey, it made it to me that if I would kill you, I'd get X. Just want you to know because somebody else is probably going to get that same. offer. And they might have told her because they want a little bit of her canteen. Maybe. Maybe they want a favor. You know, there's all kinds of stuff that goes down in prison. Lisa said in her statement to the

FDLE that she lied by omission because she was under McRleys control. She didn't think Frank would be harmed when she participated in the scheme to get him to Florida. Now, I like that term lied by omission. I don't agree with it, but I think it's a nice, nice try. Because to me, that means you just didn't say something. And we know she said she didn't see Frank killed and didn't know what happened to his body. That's not lying by omission. That's just lying. That's just straight out lies. Lying by omission is when I tell my wife that I had a friend over for dinner while she was on a business trip. But I failed to tell her that is my girlfriend. Yeah, that would be not good.

That's lying by omission. That's not real, just in case anybody is worried about that. But if it was, you would be here anymore. I would be saying it on the podcast. That's for a daggone show. And I probably wouldn't be here. Once my wife found out about it. It'd be me saying, hey, Gibby, how are you doing the day?

Yeah. And I'd be like, hey, give me, I'm doing good. Gibby. Talking to yourself. Yes. In her new testimony, Lisa said she came downstairs after her shower and saw Alan with a gun in his hands. she said there was a commotion. I don't know if it was yelling or what it was.

I don't know. Frank like must have ran or whatever. He was down in that hallway because Alan was pointing a gun and fired. One shot. She said, Alan wrapped Frank's body in a tarp. They went to Palm Beach County and Miami to use his cards to throw off investigators. So they wouldn't think he came to Martin County.

Alan then dragged Frank's body to his boat and drove away. So, you know, quite a different story this time around. Much more damaging to Allen for sure. Jury selection for Allen's second trial started on October 14th, 2002. Opening statements began on October 21st. The defense claimed that Allen wasn't even home on the night of the murder. Assistant State Attorney Robert Bellinger presented phone records from McAarley's home to Black's home in business in the days before he got on the flight,

he said Lisa Costello admitted to making these calls and luring Frank to Florida to try to persuade him to sell his bus company to him. The defense attacked the credibility and motives of the key witnesses. They described Lisa as a woman who saw McRly as a financial opportunity while keeping a secret life of drugs and sex from him,

according to the Palm Beach Post. They also said Bill Anderson had reasons to lie. And they played into Anderson's wife having a 10-year affair with Al. A lot of things are being said now. Yeah. And I think we talked about this recently. The defense kind of dragging the state's star witnesses through the mud. It's almost as if it has to be done, right?

On the part of the defense, you have to try to chip away at their credibility. Oh, it's a must. Because if you don't, what are you saying? That the jury should believe them. Yeah. But in trying to do that, you really are often saying some nasty stuff about these people. And sometimes they're saying it about the victim as well, because it helps their case. Yeah.

I mean, it's rough to do it that way, but I get why they do it that way. The defense told the jury that Lisa devised the plan to lure Frank to Florida so she could persuade him. to tell her the terms of an offer from Rider System Inc to buy his business. Macerley wanted to buy this company. Macerley opposed her plan and was annoyed once he learned Black was coming to Florida. He dropped her off at the airport that evening and was not home when Frank died. So they're saying he couldn't have killed Frank at home at his house because he wasn't even there. Bill Anderson testified at the second trial on October 25th, 2002.

And we won't go into that. is pretty much, you know, very similar to his testimony in the first trial. But Alan McRley testified on November 4th. He said that Lisa lured Frank back to Florida and killed him in self-defense by hitting him in the head with a weight inside his home. He spent the night alone on his boat while Lisa was pretending to do business with Frank Black in hopes that he would reveal details about his business. He came home the next morning. Lisa was frantic. She said Frank became enraged when he discovered that he was in Allen's home. Lisa told him it was her grandmother's house. But Frank accidentally walked into a bedroom where

Alan had some of his family pictures. Lisa said Frank chased her into the weight room and grabbed her by the hair. She grabbed a weight, hit him with it, and he was dead. Lisa said her friend Juan Albello, who was also her drug supplier, was supposed to pretend to be her boss or partner in this fake business deal. Albello helped her get rid of the body. According to Allen's testimony, Alan said, she said Frank went to Miami. She told me I didn't need to know. It's handled. It's done. Alan said he found his vote was tied up in properly and a blue tarp was missing from his garage, which led him to suspect it was used to rouse. up Frank's body. He told his friend Bill Anderson about his suspicions four days after Frank's

death. So Alan gets up on the stand and pretty easy to see who he's putting the blame on. It's Lisa. Lisa killed him. She lured him. She killed him. I came home to find out what she had done. But even he says it was in self-defense. Well, he has nothing to lose. He's pulling out all the stops. Yeah, he's already been convicted once. You know, he's again fighting for his freedom. Why not throw a story out there that puts it on someone else? Why not take the stand? You know, in the first trial, his defense team rested without calling a single witness. That didn't work. No, did not. So let's try something different. I don't know if it's a great story, but it is a story. Well, the jury believes it. Does it help? Yeah.

Closing arguments took place on November 6th. On November 10th, a judge declared a mistrial at Alan McRleley's second murder trial. The jury was deadlocked with one juror who favored acquittal. Oh, see? A little interesting now. So maybe it did work, at least on this one juror. Opening statements in Alan McRley's third trial started on February, 20. 2008, 2003, like seven years after the murder. Yeah. Again, the defense told the jury that Alan wasn't a killer and that he was on his

yacht when Lisa Costello killed Frank Black in self-defense. So it sounds like in the third trial, they're pretty much sticking with the same thing. And I get that, right? You change it up in the second one because the first time didn't work. Right. At least in the second one,

there was a juror who was in favor of acquittal. so why not stay that that course. Prosecutors again argued that Macrily killed Frank by shooting him in the head and dumping his body in the ocean. Bill testified a third time on March 5th, 2003. Prosecutors rested their case on March 7, 2003 after Alan's son-in-law, Rob Samanda Jean described how he cleaned Allen's home. Rob testified that Alan's son. said Frank was an ass and talked about the DNA in the OJ Simpson case.

He said he didn't want to leave any of Frank's hair in his home. Alan said he was surprised. Frank came to his home on February 24th and said he might be considered a suspect because of their rivalry. The carpet, drywall, and a pocket door was removed from the foyer when Rob got there on February 26th. McRly asked him to take two vacuum cleaners to the dump. So no trace evidence would be left behind.

Crime scene investigators testified that they found none of Frank's hair, blood, or DNA at the scene. So that might be a little damning, you know, to the jury when your own son-in-law comes out and kind of says this about you. Oh, I think it's not good. It's not good at all. because this is somebody that you would expect to be on your side and not against you. Yeah, kind of have your back. But I think what this guy was doing was telling the truth. On March 11, 2003, Alan McRley testified that he participated in a scheme to deceive Frank Black,

but he wasn't there when he was killed. He described how he and Lisa Costello created a fake business deal to get information about Frank's company ahead of a possible sale. Macerly said that Lisa was the one who killed him and had a friend dispose of Frank's body. So again, he's testifying at trial three, number three, and pretty much testifying in a similar way as he did in the second trial. He said, Lisa told him Frank became enraged and confronted her when he found out. She brought him to McRly's house. Macerley testified, according to the Herald Tribune, she told me she grabbed a handweight off

my treadmill hit him in the head and he died at first i thought she was clowning but it turned out she wasn't he said he spent the night on his yacht and he didn't talk to lisa until the next morning when the body was gone so pretty convenient for him super convenient yeah because he's not there at when any of the uh the disposal occurs and according to him he didn't kill frame what else would he say Exactly. But what I will say is that as a juror, is this an open and shut case, could you possibly have some doubt? Based on the previous trials, I would say yes. Well, I could see whether somebody could have a sliver. Yeah.

There's no body. So there are things that the state can't prove. When asked by his attorney, McRleley said his company was thriving. and he wasn't threatened by the sale of Black's company, he had no reason to kill Frank. But on March 15, 2003, Alan McAerley was convicted of first-degree murder. So obviously, this jury was unanimous. Yeah. In believing that he killed Frank Black, Lisa Costello received credit for time served

and was released from prison in 2004. McRley was denied a retrial in April of 2005. His son, Alan McRley Jr., inherited Byron bus lines. In 2009, one of the drivers was charged with sexually assaulting a 12-year-old student. In 2016, McRley Jr. was charged with drunk driving. Alan McRley died on February 27, 2022, while serving life in prison. He was 78 years old. A spokesperson for the Department of Corrections declined to reveal the cause of death.

as of the time of this recording, Frank Black's body still has not been found. So as we wrap up this case, Gibbs, you know, I thought it was a very interesting one in the fact that you did have a lot of things pointing to Alan McElley's involvement in the murder of Frank Black. But there were some things missing that we normally see. Right. And nobody trial is difficult. You can't have a coroner take the stand and say, the cause of death was X. Oh, can't do that. Because there was no body to examine.

You have a number of witnesses saying, Alan told them this. Or in the case of Lisa Costello, she flip flopped. And then later said she saw this, this and this. The jury's got away her credibility. and really Bill's credibility. Now, he says he didn't find out about the affair until after this all went down, but how does anybody really know that he's not just trying to get back at Alan McRley? I mean, that's a good point.

And I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just saying that I feel as though this would have been a real tough one to be a juror on. I understand how they came to the conclusion that they did, but it couldn't have been a walk-in, take one vote probably, because there were a lot of things to weigh. And you see that in the previous trials. It was tough. And for whatever reason, this third round,

they got it what they felt was right. But I just think it would be so hard, like you said, to get this case through without actually having, the body. Well, I think any prosecutor will tell you that a nobody trial is tougher. There's just no way around it. But that's it for our episode on Alan McEarly. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, Mike and Givie. This is Michelle calling from Burlington, Connecticut. I'm just listening to the air in Hernandez episodes. Burlington is right next to Bristol. My husband grew up in Bristol.

So, of course, that was a big story around here. Just a couple things about it that cracked me up. When you said you refer to N-E-S-N, and it took me a minute to realize what that was, because here we call it Nessen. And then also you were talking about Pulp Fiction when Marvin gets shot in the face, and you got it backwards. John Travolta actually shot him in the face while Samuel L. Jackson was driving. So just a couple little things that made me laugh. Keep up the great work and keep your own time ticking. Bye. Yeah, awesome voicemail.

I did goof that one. I said that Samuel L. Jackson shot Marvin, but it was actually John Travolta. Yeah, I thought about that too. But you didn't want to point it out? I thought about later. Oh, okay. See, if you were quicker, you'd catch me and we could fix it. Or you could at least point out my mistake.

Yeah, live. Live, but you got to be present. It'll be quick. You're going to be quick. Hi, my name is Jasmine, and I tried to leave a message the other day, and it did not work, and I got frustrated and hung up because nothing was working. But the whole point in the message was, I'm going through all of your podcast,

and I came across the Jerry Bucklew in-man case, and I just wanted to tell you, thank you so much for not adding more stigma to an already stigmatized diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder, because it is so hard to live with. I know I'm diagnosed with it. But thank you so much for not adding more stigma to that diagnosis. And honestly, I'm still trying to figure out what keep your own time ticking means.

And I have enjoyed listening to your podcast. And I've always been listening for about a month or so. Have a great day. Well, thank you so much for calling in. I mean, Gabby, I think we do try hard. We're not going to succeed every time. in every instance. But, you know, we try hard to be fair to people.

We do. And to treat people with respect. Now, sometimes you're talking about killers. Right. And you have to balance that, let's say, with a mental illness that they have or a diagnosis that they have and be careful that you're not putting what they did onto, you know, these thousands of. or millions of people that may have X because you don't want to stigmatize something.

But it is tough because, you know, sometimes we don't always talk about murderers in the nicest tone. That's very true. So we got to, we have to walk that line for sure. And keep your own time ticking. I mean, basically just means, you know, stay alive. Yeah. You know, take care of yourself.

Protect yourself. And it's a place. on the true crime all the time, the clock, the watch, whatever you want to call. Hey, Mike and Mike. This is Mike from Truboy in Wisconsin. I just have a case I'd like to recommend it for you guys. And it's a pretty famous one. It's the move.

You could call it move bombing, move shootout in Philadelphia in the 1980s. It's just like an example of literally anything that a police department could do wrong. They did wrong. And I'd like to see you guys cover it because you go so in depth and it do so much research. church. Anyway, I love the podcast. I think you guys are great. I've been listening to you about five months now.

And I guess, you know, have fun, be safe and keep your own time taken. All right. I don't think I'm familiar with that case. So I'm writing it down right now and we'll look into it. We definitely will. All right, buddy. We had no mail bag. No mail.

So that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and givey, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.