True Crime All The Time - Albert Fish Part 1

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Known as the “Moon Maniac” killer, Albert Fish is one of the most infamous serial killers in United States history. Fish confessed to multiple murders, but only a few could be verified. The true number of victims will never be known. Most of the victims were children, the youngest just four years old. Join Mike and Gibby for part 1 of 2 on Albert Fish. Fish admitted to torturing some of his victims and then committing acts of cannibalism afterward. In addition to murder, Fish was later known for extreme sexual practices and an obsession with self-harm. A psychiatrist who examined Fish would say, “There was no known perversion that he did not practice and practice frequently.”You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 400 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, how are you? Hey, I'm good, man. 400 episodes. It's kind of an amazing number if you think about it. Huge number.

I mean, we're closing in on what, eight years of doing this podcast? Yeah. Unbelievable. I've been feeding you now for almost eight years. You've never fed me once. All the meals I get you. 400 times I have bought you. No, there was a couple that we did early on where you were actually at your own place.

Yeah. I didn't feed you. No, you did not. Like 390 some times I have fed you dinner. And so it's like 394 to zero right now. Thank you. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Jill Knuckles.

Hey, what's up, Knuckles? Jacob. Oh, Jacob. Tracy Anderson Gribble Ah, Gribble Jody Robeson I like that Robinson Frankenberry

Frankenberry, that's cereal right there Yeah, that's some good stuff right there Yelina Solis Hey Solis Cat What's up, Kat? Susan Scully Hey Scully Donna Page

Appreciate that page Carol Jared What's up Carol? Ash Tutant Hey, Tutant And last but not least Catherine Shendell Ah Shendell

It sounds like a Like one of those marketing people It does. Like a shindel. Like a spokesperson. That's what saying. Like a real person or a brand? No, like a real person. Okay. Yeah. I got you. Yeah. It is a real person. What I know. Her name is Catherine Shindale. And maybe she does. Maybe she is a spokesperson. We don't know. But then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Tracy Revoire. Hey, thanks, Tracy. Yeah. Appreciate the new support, the continued support. We had a couple of PayPal donations. It's a large one from Deanna Hanshoe. Hey, Deanna, thank you.

And then another from David Rand. Well, thanks, David. Yeah, so we appreciate both of those as well. We do. We have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the murder of Patrice Horsley. This happened in 1993 in Mississippi. You know, this is one of those types of cases where most people think who are in the camp

they believe they know who the murderer is. They believe it's one person. Sure. But this person happens to be connected to a very powerful local family. Which makes it tough to pursue. It could. It could. But we'll get into all those details.

Make sure you check it out. Please do. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about Albert Fish for episode 400. That's a big name. Yeah.

this is part one of two. And this is a case that, you know, people have wanted us to do for many, many years. It seemed fitting for episode 400. Known as the Moon Maniac killer. Albert Fish is one of the most infamous serial killers in United States history. He confessed to a number of murders, not all of which could be verified.

And this case goes back a ways and like a lot of cases. with serial killers kind of honing in on the true number can be very, very difficult. Sure, can be. But he admitted to a lot of things. This is a nasty guy. So we're going to be talking about some torture. We're going to be talking about some cannibalism. And he had some extreme sexual practices.

I'll put it that way. Okay. A psychiatrist to examine fish said, there was no known perversion that he did not practice and practice frequently. And I know, you know, a number of people have said that about you as well. But, you know, when you break down that statement, there are a lot of different perversions, as people call them. Most people, okay, you might be into one or two.

Sure. It sounds like he was into all of them and practiced them all frequent. He's like, I'm doing it all. And we're going to talk about some of them in detail. Some you may have done. Some you may have taught classes on. I don't know. Well, and you have your own list of perversions you like.

I don't call them perversions. I just call them my preferences. So in part one, the Albert Fish episodes will cover his early life in criminal history and the investigations into the first murder. he is believed to have committed. Hamilton Howard Albert Fish was born on May 19th, 1870 in Washington, D.C. His parents were Randall Fish and Ellen Francis Howe. Randall was 43 years older than Ellen and was 75 years old when Albert was born.

Wow. That's a pretty good gap. Both, right? 43 years older than his wife and is a dad at the age of 75. I'm 51 now. I can't imagine having another child. I'd love it if it happened. Don't get me wrong.

But the way my body feels sometimes in 24 years, I highly doubt that I would be ready to chase around a little one. No. Maybe as a grandpa when you can send them home. Send them home. But full time. Albert Fish was the youngest child. I hope so. He grew up with three living siblings named Walter, Annie, and Edwin.

If he wasn't, we'd be talking about his dad having kids while he was in his 80s. Exactly. And some guys do. You hear about it. Hey, good on you. Fish would write about his family per crime library. We lived on B Street Northeast between second and third. My father was Captain Randolphish, 32nd degree Mason, and he's buried in the Grand Lodge Grounds of the Congressional Cemetery.

He was a Potomac Riverboat Captain running from D.C. to Marshall Hall, Virginia. Sounds like an important guy. Riverboat Captain. Yeah. Did I ever tell you about the cruise that we took from New Orleans? I don't remember. They had to have one captain take the boat down the Mississippi. Yeah.

And then another captain took over once they left the river. Oh, okay. Like, I guess you cannot do both. You got to be licensed for one or the other? I don't know the particulars of it, but they literally, you know, had to take this captain off of the boat once we got out into the open water. Huh. Maybe he just knew that water or she knew that water better than others.

Like, you know, I know the way the water lays and flows and flows. near me. So nobody can captain better than I near my sea. How the water lays. Do you even think about some of the words that come out of your mouth? It sounded like poetry, didn't it? It did. Oh man. Sounds like you making up shit as you went alone. On October 15th, 1875, Randall Fish suffered a heart attack at the Baltimore and Potomac Railroad Station and died. But he would have been, you know, 80 at least. So my thought is, in 1875, that's a heck of a lifespan.

It is. To live to be 80 years old. To make it that old, yeah. Now supporting four children on her own, Ellen gave up custody of Albert to St. John's orphanage in Washington. During his years at the orphanage, Fish was exposed to sacks at a young age and claimed that he was abused by the staff. He wrote, I was there till I was nearly not.

And that's where I got started wrong. We were unmercifully whipped. I saw boys doing many things they should not have done. So he's not real specific, but you're left to kind of fill in the blanks and your mind can go to some pretty dark places. But with everything we know today about these schools, back then, I'm not surprised that he saw some things.

We know that there was a lot of disturbing things occurring at some of these schools. I mean, I think both on the part of the staff and on probably, you know, some of the kids themselves, right? Staff didn't treat kids in a lot of instances the way that kids should be treated. They were pretty rough on them. Fish decided that he wanted to be called Albert, not Hamilton, for two reasons. Number one, he had a deceased sibling named Albert, which is somewhat strange, and he hated the nickname Ham and Eggs, given to him by the other children at the orphanage. Yeah, I wouldn't like that name either.

Hammon Eggs? What's that about? But we said that Albert was the youngest. So this means that he had an older brother who died, and then when it came to, time to name him, they gave him the same name as his dead brother. Does that seem odd to you? It does. But maybe they're like, well, the name is available now. Let's give it to him. Well, there would have been a lot of names available. Oh, I know. Maybe they really like that name. Author Harold Schechter, who wrote deranged the shocking true story of America's most fiendish killer,

told WOTP news. While there, Fish was subjected to all. all manners of physical and sexual abuse and also humiliation and torture, which completely warped his personality out of shape. It turned him into the kind of monstrous being that he was. And, you know, let's face it, when we talk about serial killers, we often talk a lot about their backgrounds or childhoods, you know, what formed them, what shaped them. For some, there really wasn't anything horrible. But for a lot of them, there was. And it sounds to me like Albert Fish went, you know, through some really terrible things. He experienced a lot of really horrible things. That ended up shaping his outcome. Researchers believe that Albert began to associate the pain.

He experienced with pleasure, which influenced his extreme sexual preferences as he got older. And what did we talk about a couple weeks ago, right, in our T-Cat episode, Dominatrix, people paying someone to be mean to them in some cases to hurt them. Yeah. Why? Because for some reason, pain is tied to pleasure for some people, not for me. Not anymore. No. No, not since that one accident.

Yeah. In 1879, Albert's mother got a government job and was able to bring her son home. However, his time at the orphanage left a lasting impact. According to researchers from Radford University, in 1882, Albert, who was only 12 years old, was in a relationship with another male where he was exposed to drinking urine, coprophagia, which apparently is the consumption of feces. and voyeurism. All right.

So I'm about ready to lose my dinner. We had some very delicious pizza. Yeah. That it may not be sitting as well as it was before I just said that. Right. I mean, that's really disturbing if you think about it. You don't even have to think about it, really. I'd rather not.

It's just disturbing. You know, you always, I've always heard, you know, this stuff about, you know, different sex fetishes with. urine. Have I? Because you're telling me I have. Well, I mean, we've covered it a few times. You're talking about like what, a golden shower? Well, you came up with that really quick. Um, but yeah, something like that. Um, but this consumption of feces, man. And the fact that they have an actual word for it. Yeah. Yeah. That means it's, it's, it's not an isolated. It's, it happens on a somewhat regular basis. Fish moved to New York City as a young adult. This is where the police believe he started his criminal career. His listed profession was

house painter, but around 1890, he began doing sex work. Fish also claimed that he started sexually abusing young boys at this time. He did what was done to him. And that is probably part of it. That's why we talk about the background of these people, because is it hard not to believe? that what was done to him, what he witnessed, what he experienced in some way caused some of the actions that, you know, he took later in life. Now, authorities don't know the exact number of victims or even the identity of these first victims if Fish was telling the truth. And we have had people tell some, you know, pretty tall tales about, you know, how many people

they've killed or crimes they've committed, to me, these crimes are so appalling that I can't understand why anyone would want to take credit for this. I get it if you're confessing, you're getting it off your chest, if you really did it, but to try to take credit for stuff like this that you didn't do, in 1898, Fish's mother arranged a marriage for him with a woman named Anna Mary Hoffman. And they would have six children together. Albert Jr., Anna, Gertrude, Eugene, John, and Henry. All pretty standard down the middle type names, I think, for that time period.

I think so. Fisch's children were between the ages of 21 and 35 at the time of his arrest. So all young adults. I don't know if I'd call 35 a young adult. or your 35 listeners out there, like, what are you talking about? Adult. Yeah. I don't know about young adult.

But I think what it tells you is what we're going to find out, right? Is that he committed crimes for a pretty long time. And can you imagine finding out that your father was this person that did these things? A feces eater? A feces eater? Yes. I mean, that would be bad. But obviously, that's not near as bad as some of the things we're going to find out.

that he did. And how bad would it be if you're his wife and he's complained about your cooking at some point? And you find this out. You're like, you're complaining about my cooking, but yet you eat shit. That doesn't make sense. And it to which he would say, I couldn't tell the difference. Fisch's children would later testify that their father asked them to hit him with a painter and a hairbrush. They also saw him hid himself with a paddle studded. with nail. Wow. Okay. He was definitely into pain. Yes. You know, have you ever seen those people who are into like, what is it called? Self-flagellation? Or is that farting? I don't know. I get those two words mixed up. Well, which one do you do? Which one do you do? What if I do both? No, but have you ever seen, like,

yeah, yeah. People that throw something over their back and they're hitting themselves and leaving marks and welts or their legs or something like that. Remember that show the the accountant? Yeah. Remember how he took that wood rod to his front of his shin? Yeah. Yeah. Now, I think that was for a different reason.

But as an adult, fish began inserting sewing needles into his body. A now famous X-ray image shows 29 needles stuck inside his pelvis. That would hurt when you. put it in, but it would hurt throughout the day. Throughout its life cycle of being in your pelvis. Yeah. It hurts me just thinking about it. He also burned himself with hot irons and pokers, ate his own extrament, all of this

according to the history channel. So he ate others. He ate his own. You don't know where a good starting point is. If that's what you're into, do you start off with your own first or venture into somebody else's and come back to your own? I don't even know how you get started into something like that, thinking, yeah, this seems like a good idea. Do you wait until you have a certain type of meal, maybe with a lot of garlic in it, or, you know.

Now you're just getting way too carried away. One of his most disturbing obsessions was cannibalism. He carried writings about cannibalism in his pockets. Fish began committing property crimes in the early 1900s. On July 17th, 1903, Fish was arrested in Long Island while leaving a train with his wife and two young children. He was charged with embezzlement. According to the New York Times, for the previous six years, he had been assistant manager of the grocery department at the Patchawg Cooperative store. His neighbor, Herbert Smith, saw that he was packing up his house, but he hadn't said anything.

thing about moving away. And I guess this guy was suspicious when a wagon came to the house in the early morning hours and several trunks were loaded into it, he contacted the store manager who soon discovered that Fish's safe drawer was empty and a considerable amount of cash was missing. The manager quickly contacted the police. Fish had already left on the train, but authorities made phone calls to coordinate their efforts to catch him. Later that year, On December 11th, Albert Fish was arrested in Suffolk County in charge with grand larceny. He would serve 16 months at Sing Sing Prison. Oh, boy, that's a long 16 months.

If that's the prison you went to. And I think it shows you how old Sing Sing is or was. I don't know if it's still an operation, but we talked about it in the number of cases. So to go back, you know, into the early 1900s, they used it for quite a few years. in 1917 Albert's wife Anna left him for another man. You know, probably a man who didn't eat his own excrement. Yeah. Or drink his own urine.

We're still and do other bad things too. Because I don't think those guys are all that hard to find. But the ones that don't do that? Yes. I think the ones that do, we're talking about a pretty small population, hopefully. I would think, I don't know how big your guys' clubs are, but I would think they're pretty small. Fish wrote,

I got an apartment and brought my mother up from Washington. We lived at 76 West 101st Street. And that's where I met my wife. After our six children were born, she left me. She took all the furniture and didn't even leave a mattress for the children to sleep on. Well, that's just wrong.

Well, I understand her leaving him. I don't know who or how many women would put up with the stuff that this guy's got going on. But it sounds like she left the kids with him. He said that he started hearing voices. Also around this time, Fish began to experience auditory hallucinations. For example, he once wrapped himself in a carpet and said he was following the instructions of John the Apostle.

Fish would later say that he heard messages from God, ordering him to rape and mutilate children. He called his knife, saw, and meat cleaver. his implements of hell. I just don't think if you believe in God that God would say, go do this to kids. Go do bad things to kids. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think the question becomes, and it's probably one we're going to ask multiple times, is this a guy who is experiencing some really serious mental health issues or is he just coming up with something to try to explain the horrible crimes he committed? Yeah, I think he's trying to justify it in his own head. On July 11, 1924, Albert found eight-year-old Beatrice Keel, playing alone on her parents' farm in Staten Island.

He offered Beatrice some money to help him look for rhubarb. She was about to go with him when her mother chased fish away. Fish left but returned to the family's barn. He attempted to sleep there, but Beatrice's father found him and forced him to leave. So that's a scary situation. Well, it's really scary. It also shows you that, you know, predators offering kids something, money, candy to go with them,

you know, that didn't start in the 70s. No. It goes back, you know, a long, long way. In 1934, the Brooklyn Daily Eagle reported that Beatrice, who by that time was 18 years old, identified Fish as the man who attempted to take her. According to the book Albert Fish in his own words, Fish attempted to use his what he called implements on a 10-year-old boy. He was molesting named Cyril Quinn.

Cyril and his friends were playing on a sidewalk when Fish approached and asked if they'd eaten lunch. They said they hadn't. So he invited them to his apartment for sandwiches. While the boys were wrestling on Fish's bed, They dislodged the mattress and saw his knife, handsaw, and meekly. They were frightened and they ran out of the apartment. So there's a couple of things here. First of all, you know, we talked about how scary this possible interaction with Beatrice was.

You know, then 10 years later, she's able to identify this man. Right. Is it that much more scary to know what this guy did in, in the years, following your encounter with him and that you most likely were very close to losing your life. And I think the same thing goes with these boys. Absolutely.

They got lucky. I mean, we've talked to victims before where they escaped close encounters. With known serial killers. Yeah. They didn't know these people were serial killers at the time. No, but looking back, then they realized they were

and how lucky. Think about, you know, narrowing, think about escaping such a big serial killer. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be a conversation starter at parties, but it's also going to be something that might haunt you. As the years passed, Fish became more and more depraised. According to his claims, he committed a murder as early as 1910. This is one that he took credit for.

We're going to talk about it more in part two. the first confirmed case associated with fish was the murder of 8-year-old Francis McDombe. On July 14, 1924, Francis was playing on the front porch of his home in the pastoral Troulton Wood section of Staten Island. His mother, Anna, was nearby with her infant daughter. She saw a thin older man with gray hair and a mustache standing in the middle of the street. He was clenching his fists and mumbling to himself. up. He tipped his hat to her and then disappeared down the street. Anna McDonald recalled about

the stranger per oxygen. He came shuffling down the street, mumbling to himself and making strange motions with his hand. I saw his thick gray hair and his dropping gray mustache. Everything about him seemed faded in gray. Francis left home just before 430. His little brother Albert told his mother that he went to the wood. Later that afternoon, the same man was seen watching Francis and four other boys playing ball. He called Francis over to him. The older boys continued playing, and a few minutes later, the old man and Francis disappeared. Neighbor George Sterns saw Francis running to the path leading to the woods.

He also saw an elderly gray-haired man following him, about 30 feet behind. Francis's parents didn't notice that he was gone until dinner. And that was when his father organized a search part. You know, people a lot more trusting back then with their kids, allowing them to roam a little further, a little more freely. Like there was no carriers out there. Yeah. I think for a lot of parents back then, there probably weren't as many fears as there are today. Yeah.

I mean, if you knew something like Albert Fish was out there. But I don't think people thought that those people even existed. Oh, you're right. Who knew that people were eating their own poop? I really was not aware of that today in 2024. I'm still shocked by it. Yeah, it's definitely disturbing. Francis was found on the evening of July 15th.

The New York Daily News reported Francis McDonald, a little boy of eight, was frightfully mistreated and then strangled to death in the troll. Nortlinger Woods, half a mile from his home, frightfully mistreated. I think they were pretty careful about what they put out in the news. Yeah. It shows those, it shows their words wisely. Yeah. Or carefully.

Carefully. But obviously, frightfully mistreated is a euphemism to what this kid went through. The police were seeking the man in his 60s who was prowling the neighborhood on the afternoon of July 14th, they thought that perhaps the old man had an accomplice because of the severity of the beating. As though, I guess Gibbs, they thought that this guy wouldn't possibly be capable of inflicting such wounds. On his own.

On his own. Like he had to have somebody younger with him to help him. The Daily News reported the little boy was lying face downward on a newspaper. his pants had been removed and the legs of the pants had been tied around his neck to produce death by strangulation. Nearby, detectives found an envelope containing certain articles that indicated the character of the man who committed the murder. I'm assuming these were articles about things that most people probably wouldn't have had with them. Francis's unknown killer became known as the gray man. The gray man doesn't sound.

Too menacing? Yeah. But it sounds pretty accurate when you go back to the description provided by Francis's mother. On July 16th, 1924, 19-year-old Jacob Gottlieb was held as a material witness in the murder of Francis McDonald. Gottlieb and a companion reportedly revealed the operations of a degenerate set. He named and described an elderly man who fit the description of the suspect. Detectives went after 55-year-old Jacob Herman, an escaped inmate from the New Jersey State insane asylum. He confessed to being at the murder scene and described the child's body.

Herman also admitted to, quote, impairing the morals of young boy. Again, a lot of euphemisms here. I mean, we know that what is really being talked about. They're just being careful how they say it. Yes. because these are some really nasty crimes against children. Herman was arrested before he could have possibly seen a newspaper account of the murder. So the police thought his story had more credibility.

As reported by the Daily News, Herman claimed that he was taking a shortcut through the woods and saw something that looked like putty. And I looked closer and saw that it was a boy's body. The boy was lying face down. and did not have any clothes on, Herman touched him and he didn't move. He was afraid and ran away, which is why he didn't call the police. And he maintained this version of events.

So I'm thinking Gibbs, detectives thought that they had their man, right? This Jacob Herman was the one who killed this young boy. Now, we know that it was really Albert Fitch. But think about this guy's circumstances. Number one, he's an escaped inmate from a state asylum. He puts himself at the crime scene. He describes the boy's body. But he says he found the body and he didn't call police out of fear.

That is going to put you on the radar. For sure, will. On top of admitting to impairing the morals of young boys. But Fish would later confess to harming at least 100 children. And so there are a number of murders that have been unaffroning. officially linked to him, including the murder of five-year-old Emma Richardson on October 5th, 1926. It's just so many kids and so young. A hundred.

All young. I mean, you know, there's no doubt about it. This was a very depraved individual, and we're going to find out more about his level of depravity. The next confirmed murder associated with fish, occurred on February 11th, 1927, when 4-year-old Billy Gaffney was kidnapped from his Brooklyn apartment. Billy was playing in the hallway of his apartment building with three-year-old Billy Beaton, a 12-year-old neighbor who was supposed to be watching his younger sister, came out to join him,

but soon returned to his apartment. When he heard his sister cry, he returned a few minutes later and saw that both boys were gone. He found Billy Beaton's father and told him. him what happened. Billy's father found him on the roof of the apartment building. When his father asked him where Billy Gaffney was, the little boy said the bookie man took him. The bookie man's been around long time. Yeah, sure has. And unfortunately, you know, for a lot of people, the boogeyman is inspired by reality. You know, real people doing really horrible things. And I think that's what happened here. But detectives didn't give much credibility to Billy Beaton's statement.

Investigators initially thought Billy Gaffney wandered into a factory building or had fallen into a canal, a few blocks away. The canal was dredged and the community put together a search, but Billy wasn't found. This forced the police to refocus on Billy Beaton's statement. Based on the child's description, the suspect was a thin older man. with gray hair and a gray mustache. However, police weren't sure how accurate the description was given the child's age. And I think that's pretty normal. You know, when you're talking about a young kid, how much credibility do you put into what they say? Kids say a lot of things. They do. They could be telling the truth. They could not be. How good are they with descriptions?

and most adults aren't great with trying to describe someone. No, I'm terrible. You're also not great at that. Being terrible? No. But the police also did not link this crime to the murder of Francis McDonnell in 1924, even though the suspects had similar descriptions. And my thought about that is,

we're talking a hundred years ago almost, a lot harder to link cases. Oh, yeah. You don't have the technology to help you out. Yeah, there's no computer database. You can't, you know, just put in a description of someone and have a file pop up or something like that. In March 1927, Brooklyn DA Charles Dodd spoke to the New York Daily News about the case

and said, neighbors saw Billy moments before he disappeared. Their most remarkable disclosure was that Billy Gaffney vanished within three minutes. Mrs. Cordovans saw him playing on the fourth floor. of the building where he lived at 5.30 p.m. And not more than three minutes later, beaten looked there and the child was gone. So fast. It happened so quick. Well, we talk about a lot of different cases and in many cases you're talking about a window of time in which the police thought or thing that a crime occurred. But three minutes is very, very short. It's a short window. Now, if you're someone who's going to try to snatch a chop, that's something that I guess you would

have to do very quickly. You don't want to be caught. You don't want to be seen. Now, what it did was it terrified Brooklyn mothers because there were multiple cases of young boys kidnapped from their homes and then found dead days later. I mean, I think for Brooklyn moms, Brooklyn families, it's a nightmare. It really is. Yeah, they took it pretty seriously.

on March 4th, 1927, a mob of mothers attacked a man who attempted to kidnap a five-year-old boy. So a little vigilante justice on the part of these moms. They're like a gang going around trying to protect their children. I love it. The Daily News reported less than a mile from the Gaffney home. At 138 Warren Street, the women clawed and spat at Lewis Sandman, 42, caught in the act of dragging five-year-old Frank Malerba into a dim hallway. Sandman cowered behind patrolman Paul Keffler, while the mothers became more menacing and shrieked curses in Italian and Polish.

This man was so afraid of these moms kicking his ass that he hid behind a police officer. Like, don't like these women get me. And at the same time, they cursed him. As they should. Fish has been unofficially linked. to the murder of 12-year-old Yeda Abramowitz, which occurred just a few months later. On May 14th, 1927, Yeda was strangled and beaten on the roof of an apartment building in the Bronx. She was found alive, but soon died in the hospital.

A man matching Fish's description was seen trying to lure young girls into hallways and alleys. On the day, Yeda was killed. Fish later denied his involvement with this murder. So, you know, it's one of the things with Albert Fish, as it is with many serial killer. They take credit for some crimes. They, they don't for others. You know, how do you believe what they're saying unless you have the evidence to conclusively back it up? When there lies the problem. Albert Fish committed the third and final confirmed murder in the summer of 1928. 18-year-old Edward Butt lived in a tenement building in New York City.

with his parents, Albert, and Diliabud, and his four younger siblings. He wanted to find work that would get him out of the city. So on May 25th, 1928, he paid for a classified ad in the Sunday edition of the New York World. It read, young man, 18, wishes, position, and country, Edward Budd, 406, West 15th Street. Doesn't that seem so odd for an individual to place a classified ad for a position. It does. We're so used to seeing, you know, ads placed by employers for jobs and then people apply. On May 28th, Edward's mother, Delia, answered the door to an elderly man. He introduced himself as Frank Howard, a farmer from Farmingdale, Long Island, and said that he wanted to speak to

Edward about a job. Delia asked her five-year-old daughter Beatrice to fetch Edward at his friend's apartment, the old man gave Beatrice a nickel. Delia and the man waited for Edward to arrive. She observed that the man had a kindly face with gray hair and a gray mustache. He told Delia he previously worked as an interior decorator in the city and purchased a farm with his retirement savings. He claimed he raised six children by himself after his wife abandoned them over a decade earlier. His kids, five farm hands and a cook helped run the farm.

He claimed he had several hundred chickens and a half dozen dairy cows. One of his farm hands was leaving and he needed a replacement. When Edward arrived at the apartment, Frank Howard commented on his size and strength, and Edward assured him he would be a good worker. Howard offered him $15 a week and Edward accepted. Howard also agreed to hire Edward's friend. Willie Cormer. Howard promised to return on Saturday, June 2nd, to pick the boys up and take them to the farm. Frank Howard didn't show up, but the family received a telegram from him informing them.

He was delayed and would come the next day. According to the Times Union, the telegram said, been over in Jersey on business, call in morning. Howard showed up around 11 a.m. on June 3rd with strawberries and cheese allegedly from his farm. Really trying to sell this. The fact that he has a farm? Yeah, sounds like it. Dillia invited Howard to stay for lunch. During the meal, Howard spoke to Albert Bud Sr.

And described his 20-acre farm. At one point, 10-year-old Grace Budd arrived home from church. And it was said that this was the first time that Frank Howard, now we know it's not Frank Howard, but that's what he was going by, had ever seen the girl. Howard handed Grace a wad of cash and asked her to count it. The buds were shocked by how much money he was carrying with him. He then gave Grace 50 cents to buy candy for herself and her sister Beatrice. Howard told the family he would return in the evening to pick up Edward and his friend,

but he needed to leave to attend his niece's birthday party. He gave the boys $2 a piece to go to the movies while they waited. And just as he was about to leave, he invited, He invited Grace to come to the party with him. He promised to bring her home before 9 p.m. Pretty good move. It's a, it's a con man type move. You can see what he's doing and the reasons behind what he's doing, right?

He's talked up as far. He has a reason for being there, which is to hire Edward and his friend. He's flashing a lot of cash. And then he's given them the security of, here's a couple bucks, go see the movies, I'll be back, no worries.

And he's talking about his niece's birthday part. Because why else would you invite this young girl to go? It's because you have maybe a young niece or something. He claimed his sister lived in an apartment at Columbus and 137th Street. Dillia was unsure about it. But Albert Sr. convinced her it would be good for Grace to go. Dillia Bud watched Grace and Frank Howard disappear down the street.

Gibbs, it was the last time that she saw her daughter alive. Frank Howard didn't return in the evening. On the morning of June 4th, Edward Budd went to the police station to report his sister missing. Police Lieutenant Samuel Dribbin informed the buds that the address given to them by Frank Howard was fake. and that there was no record of a Frank Howard in Farming Day. And Gibbs, you can just imagine what these parents were going through at that point. Their hearts must have just sank. Oh.

Hearing that news. And what do you feel like if you're... Albert Sr.? Albert Sr. Because you talked your wife into letting her go. And I'm sure he's hearing about that, you know? Well, I told you I didn't want her to go. Well, yeah, he might be hearing about it, but no one could ever probably beat him up as much as he would have beat himself up.

For sure. He had to just feel like the worst person ever. The police looked carefully into all the information Frank Howard gave the family, and they had the Bud's view photos of known child molesters and other rogues. Called them rogues. None of them looked like Frank Howard, though. On June 7th, the police mailed out a thousand flyers to police stations around the country with Grace's photo and the description of Frank Howard. This led to an influx of false sightings and fake letters, but there were a few solid leaks. The police found the Western Union office in East Harlem that Frank Howard used to send his telegram to the buds on June 2nd and his original handwritten message.

In the same area, the police found the food card. where Frank Howard purchased the cheese, he claimed, came from his farm. Unfortunately, Grace Budd's case went cold and would remain that way for the next six years. But Albert Fish continued committing property crimes and he was occasionally caught and arrested. The Brooklyn Daily Eagle published a report on his arrest record on July 21, 1928. He was arrested in Brooklyn for attempted grand larceny, but was discharged. On August 22nd of that year, he was arrested in Manhattan for petty larceny. He was discharged, but arrested the same day in the Bronx and charged with petty

larceny. He was convicted of the crime, but received a suspended sentence. Just slap on the wrist. Yeah, but, you know, what are these crimes, really? Petty larceny, I mean, this is not the crimes against children and the murders that Albert Fish would become infamous for. I'm not saying these were nothing, but they weren't along those lines. Right.

But I've already said, right, three known murders. But he said that he harmed over a hundred children. And obviously we're going to talk about it, but it's pretty hard to believe that he only committed three murders. And I think most people think that as well. Oh, for sure. On February 6th, 1930, Albert, Fish married a woman named Estella Wilcox in Waterloo, New York.

It wasn't a legal marriage because he was still married to Anna Mary Hoffman. The New York Times reported that they met through a matrimonial bureau and lived together for just a week. She applied for divorce on April 2nd, 1930. Now, I don't know what a matrimonial bureau is. Maybe it's a matchmaking thing that they had back in the day. but when you hear about someone getting married and it lasting a week, you have to think, maybe in the same way that Anna did, but much quicker, Estella got the vibes that, oh, this is not

what I signed up for. Yeah, I don't want to be part of this. I don't know if you disclose the fact that you're a poop eater the first weekend or not, But, you know, that might have done it right there. I think you got to let it warm up a little bit. The marriage or? No. The eating of the feces.

I don't know if you can go right into that. No, you got to let the marriage warm up before you disclose it. Yeah, I don't think that's something you want to let out of the bag in the first day, week. I think you really should. Ten years, 25 years. Just keep it to yourself, you know. But something had to have happened, right? in that first week to scare her into leaving.

The Brooklyn Daily Eagle reported that on May 2nd, 1930, Fish was arrested for vagrancy in Manhattan but was discharged. However, the Daily Eagle reported in a different article in that day's paper that Fish was arrested at a boarding house in Newark on May 2nd. A maid had put out an ad for a job and Fish responded. His letter was so strange that she turned it over to her employer, who notified the police. Fish wrote that he was an artist who used boys and young men as models.

And this is what the letter said. When the models misbehaved, I beat them with a cat of nine tails that hangs in the pantry. When I'm away, you would be in charge. And you would beat the models. But on Saturdays, between 11 and 4, the models have a holiday. Then I pose for them. And they beat me with the kids. had of Nine Tails. It's great fun. And I hope you will like the job. The salary is $85 per month.

That's a very strange letter. So obviously, you know, when you're, I guess at that point in time, putting an ad in the paper saying you're looking for a job, you're going to get all kinds of offers, maybe. But this is a pretty strange one. I mean, first of all, Gibbs, he's talking about beating young boys. Right. With a cat of nine tails. And then he's talking about letting them beat him. And then he wants somebody to be in charge of it when he's not around. That's the job.

For $85 a month. And he says it's great fun. I think the boys might disagree. The police searched Fish's room and found an axe, a sharp knife, four sets of skeleton keys, lock picks, a bracing bit, which is, an old-timey tool to drill holes in wood, and letters from many women. I know you're big on skeleton keys. You brag about, you know, the set that you have all the time,

allowing you to get into virtually any lock. That's right. Now, would it be unusual for somebody in the early 1900s to have an axe? A sharp knife? I would say probably not, but when you put it together with this very strange letter, you have these skeleton keys, you have locks, You have lock picks. Okay.

Now maybe the authorities have additional question. Yeah, I think they would have to ask some additional questions. Fish was suspected of but never charged with the murder of four-year-old Emil Olling. On July 13th, 1930, on August 26, 1930, Fish was arrested in Montclair, New Jersey as a fugitive from justice and taken to the Bronx to face a charge of petty larceny. There was no disposition or final outcome in the case per the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Four years old.

But never charged. And that's, you know, it goes back to what I said. Three confirmed, but how many children did this guy murder? We know he hurt a lot of children. He admitted to that. But my thought is he murdered a lot more than he was willing to, confessed for sure grace bud's parents felt extremely guilty for trusting a stranger to take their daughter to a birthday party they held out hope that perhaps someone who won the child of their own had taken her

and was raising her in a different city and we talked about the guilt right the guilt is going to be there on both mom and dad i thought especially on dad because he was the one who kind of talked the mom and to letting her go. But I get this type of hope. And the last thing you would want to think is that your young daughter is not a lot. Now, do you want to be without her? No. But would it be preferable for her to be happy and being raised by another family than the

alternative? Yeah, I mean, it's more of a positive way to look at it. Yes. It was said that the police never gave up on the case. and at one point they identified a suspect. On September 4th, 1930, the police arrested 67-year-old Charles Edward Pope, a caretaker.

Pope maintained his innocence, but his estranged wife, Jesse, accused him of the murder. She claimed she learned about the kidnapping of Grace Budd, just one month prior, despite the fact that it was major news. She said she read a story that a man named Charles Howard

was arrested in Florida for grand larceny, Delia Bud saw the suspect, but could not identify him as her daughter's kidnapper. Jesse claimed that her son Howard mentioned the story to her, and she recalled a disturbing incident with her estranged husband. She claimed that on June 3, 1928, she was staying at her sister's home, a boy came to the house with a message from her husband asking to meet nearby. The boy led her to Charles Pope, who had a little girl with him, according to Jesse. Charles asked her to take care of the girl, who he claimed was the daughter of a friend. She refused to do it.

Charles said, then I'll have to take her back home. The little girl looked directly at her. So Jesse was able to memorize what she looked like. She felt sure that the little girl was Grace Butt. I feel like she has a axe to pick with her strange husband. I think you mean acts to grind, but I got the general motion. Some people grind. But, you know, we've talked about this before.

Be nice to people. Now, I don't know what this guy did. Maybe he did do some stuff to her. She had reasons to hate him. But you, you never know when somebody's going to try to get their revenge. Yeah. Now, it doesn't get much worse than claiming. that your estranged husband kidnapped and killed a young girl.

Yeah, it's not going to go well for him. No, I'm sure that's what she was betting on. But also, what are you doing to the bud family? You know, if her husband really had nothing to do with it, okay, you're taking up police resources that could be used, you know, in other places. Yeah, and you're putting them through undue stress and you're also giving them hope and at the same time, finality, maybe. The second one, not good.

Meanwhile, you're potentially, you're ruining this person's life. Oh, absolutely. When asked why she didn't come forward sooner, Jesse said that soon after this strange encounter, she became so sick, she couldn't leave home, and didn't recover until most of the excitement in the Bud case died down. She said that when she learned about the most recent arrest,

She wanted to come forward so an innocent man would not go to prison. So I guess the other thing we didn't talk about is what if the police really had to write guy? Yeah, now you just gave him a get out of jail free card? Because you were mad at your husband? Charles Edward Pope went to trial on December 22nd, 1930. His defense argued that he was being framed by his estranged wife and told the jury they would present a letter from Delia Bud, saying Pope was not to kidnap.

Eventually, Pope was acquitted of all charges. You know, thankfully, trials happened a lot quicker back then. Sure. Because if not, this guy could have spent just a couple of, you know, years in jail waiting for the trial. But still, you know, his name had to be ran through the paper. And through the mud. Yeah. And you have to get those weird stairs and people talking about you because,

maybe they read the first story but never saw the second part where you were found to be innocent. And even if they did see it, there's some people that may not believe it. Yeah. On December 5th, 1930, Albert Fish was arrested in New York City on a federal charge of sending obscene literature through the mail. I can only imagine what that might have been. Yeah, because obscene, when you're talking about it in relation to, Albert Fish. It could be virtually anything from some type of child pornography, strange writings, strange fetishes. I have no idea with him. Fish was remanded to the psychopathic war of Bellevue Hospital. He received the suspended sentence after a period of observation

according to the New York Times. Dr. Menace Gregory, the former director, at Bellevue wrote about Fish, as quoted by the New York Times, this man, although abnormal, has at the present time sufficient mental capacity to know the nature and quality of his acts and to differentiate between right and wrong. Fish was arrested again in 1931 on unspecified charges. He was sent back to Bellevue Hospital for a period of observation. Authorities suspected but never confirmed that Fish was involved in the murder of six-year-old Robin Jane Luke, who was killed on May 2, 1931. He was also suspected of killing 16-year-old Mary Ellen O'Connor. On February 15, 1932, she was found in the woods near a house that Fish was painting in Far Rockaway Queens. Additionally,

Fish was a suspect in the December 15, 1932 murder of Benjamin Collins, who was just 17 years old. 1934 marked six years since Grace Budd was murdered. Over the years, her parents had received many letters, which they turned over to the police. Most of them were false leave. But on November 11, 1934, the Buds received a letter that finally helped solve the case. The following letter was published by Crime Library. It read, My Dear Mrs. Bud, in 1894, a friend of mine shipped as a decan on the steamer Tacoma, Captain John Davis. They sailed from San Francisco for Hong Kong, China.

On arriving there, he and two others went ashore and got drunk. When they returned, the boat was gone. At that time, there was famine in China. Meat of any kind was from $1 to $3 a pound. So great was the suffering among the very poor that all children under 12 were sold for food in order to keep others from starving, a boy or girl under 14 was not safe in the street. You could go in any shop and ask for steak, chops, or stew meat. Part of the naked body of a boy or girl would be brought out. And just what you wanted cut from it. A boy or girls behind, which is the sweetest part of the body and sold as veal cutlet

brought the highest price. Okay. I'm going to roll a tough time with that. With this letter so far? Okay, well, it gets worse. John stayed there so long. He acquired a taste for human flesh. On his return to New York, he stole two boys,

one seven, one eleven, took them to his home, stripped them naked, tied them in a closet, then burned everything they had on. Several times every day and night, he spanked them, tortured them, to make their meat good and tender. First, he killed the 11-year-old boy because he had the fattest ass, and of course the most meat on it, every part of his body was cooked

and eaten except the head, bones, and guts. He was roasted in the oven, all of his ass, boiled, broiled, fried, and stewed. The little boy was next, went the same way. At that time, I was living at 409 East 100th Street near right side. He told me so often how good human flesh was I made up my mind to taste it. Can you imagine reading this letter? I mean, at what point do you feel like, I mean, probably pretty niziate it pretty quick, but as you're reading this, are you thinking, where's this going? And why, yeah, what does this have to do with me?

What does this have to do with my daughter? Right. On Sunday, June 3rd, 1928, I called on you at 406 West 15th Street, brought you pot cheese, strawberries. We had lunch. Grace sat in my lap and kissed me. I made up my mind to eat her. Wow. So I think that clears that question up very quickly. Why is this person sending this letter? How do I know this person? And what does this have to do with my daughter? On the pretense of taking her to a party, you said yes, she could go. I took her to an empty house in Westchester. I had already picked out. When we got there, I told her to remain outside. She picked wildflowers. I went upstairs

and stripped all my clothes off. I knew if I did not, I would get her blood on them. When all was ready, I went to the window and called her. Then I hid in a closet until she was in the room. When she saw me all naked, she began to cry and tried to run down the stairs. I grabbed her and she said she would tell her mama. First, I stripped her naked, how she did kick, bite, and scratch. I choked her to death, then cut her in small pieces so I could take my meat to my rooms, cook and eat it. How sweet and tender. Her little ass was roasted in the oven. It took me nine days to eat her entire body. I didn't fuck her, though. I could have had I wished, she died of virgin. I mean, I got to be honest with you, that was hard to get through.

Yes, rough. Sick. Disturbing. And that's, you know, me and you going through a letter that's 100 years old. Yeah. Almost. Imagine the family reading this after, you know, so many years has gone by. They have no idea what happened to their daughter.

And this person in this letter is laying everything out for them. them. Now, they've had a bunch of hoaxes. They've had a bunch of probably people writing, messing with them. But think about the particulars that are in this letter that they would have known to have been true. Yeah. Or sitting on his lap, kissing him. Now, maybe some of that was published. Maybe not. It's just so disturbing. Absolutely. It's like one of those letters you would say, I don't want to believe it, but it's so believable. Yeah. Even though it's not.

Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. It's believable because there are facets of things they would have known to be true. But it's unbelievable in the fact that how could anyone write the letter, let alone actually do the things? How could anyone even sit down and write this letter and send it? to the parents of a missing girl. Yeah, I mean, the way he wrote the letter, too, right? It's like, okay, this is what happened.

Well, the whole beginning of it doesn't even have anything to do with Grace. It's halfway through the letter before he even starts talking about her. It's like he's trying to justify why he did it. Well, I acquired this taste. He's giving a background as to how he got the taste for human, flesh. And then, you know, at the end, it's almost like, you know, he's saying I didn't violate her. I could have, but I didn't. Yeah, so thank me for that. After talking about all of these horrible things that he did to this poor girl. Just know she was a fighter because she kicked and scratched and tried

to get away. And she died a virgin, as though that is supposed to lessen the blow on these people. The lead detective in the case was William King. He believed the writer was the killer because the details of the meeting with the buds were accurate. For six years, Detective King had saved the original message, handwritten by Frank Howard, on June 2nd, 1928, which was converted into a telegram sent to the family that day. When comparing this letter to the note, Detective King realized the handwriting match. The 1934 letter had the insignia of the New York private chauffeur's benevolent association.

Investigators questioned the members of the association. One man said he left envelopes behind at a boarding house. Detectives went to the boarding house and searched the guest registered for handwriting that matched the letters. And that's when they identified their suspect as Albert Fish. The landlady of the rooming house told the police that Fish asked her to hold a letter he was expecting from his son who regularly sent him money. On November 12th, a letter from Fish to a man named Vincent Burke at the Holland Motel in Manhattan was mailed in another chauffeur's association envelope. It was returned to the association because Vincent Burke wasn't staying at the hotel. Detective King compared this handwriting sample to the others and found it similar.

This letter was mailed from the Grand Central Post Office, where the November 11th letter was mailed from. The check from Fish's son arrived on December 5th. The post office intercepted the letter and held it in hopes that Fish would go to the rooming house to ask about it. Sure enough, on December 13th, 1934. The landlady called Detective William King, and informed him that Fish was there asking about the letter.

Looking for some money. Detective King found the man having a cup of tea. When asked if he was Albert Fish, he stood up and nodded. Fish then pulled a razor blade out of his pocket. But Detective King grabbed his hand and twisted it saying, I've got you now. Think he's out what went? I don't know if he said it exactly like that, but...

You think he said, I've got you now. You son of a bitch, you. Yeah. I kind of have a like a crocodile Dundee thing in my mind. Like he pulls out this razor blade. The detective's like, that's not a knife. This is a knife.

And he just grabs him. Yeah. Now, a razor blade could be deadly. No doubt about it. It's like the razor blades back in the day that they shaved you with. They, that flipped open like a knife with a handle and all that.

Yeah, you could do some real damage with it. But apparently this guy was either not afraid or much, much stronger than Albert Fish, she just grabs him. So, you know, in part two of the Albert Fish episodes, we'll cover his confession to the murder of Grace Budd, his, his infamous murder trial, his post-trial confessions and his execution. And I'll be real honest with you. I'm going to have a hard time getting that letter out of my head.

Oh, me too. That was rough, rough stuff. just for the content because the content alone, if you had no context, would be horrible. But in the context of knowing that, you know, this family was conned into letting their little girl go with this guy and he sends them a letter telling them these awful things that he did and how he ended her life and ultimately ate her. I mean, it's, uh, whew, it's tough stuff.

And also in my mind, I can't believe that, uh, there was a period of time in a country that they had to eat kids. Yeah, I don't know if that's true or not. Well, either. I mean, he put it in the letter. If it is true. That's pretty horrible. Yeah.

I mean, there have been a number of famines, you know, in different parts of, of the world, but I don't know how often they had to resort to eat. other people or especially kids. That could be 100% true. Something else you Google on your phone. Yeah, exactly. But no doubt, right? As we wrap up this first episode,

we knew it going in. Albert Fish was extraordinarily bad. I mean, there's a reason he's as infamous as he is. I mean, how do people gain this type of infamy? Right? You think about the real infamous killer.

They do things that are so shocking. People can't forget about it. Think Ed Gein, right? You know, think about Dahmer. Think about some of these people who did just some really horrible things. That is what causes infamy. And we got a lot more to cover in our second final part. But that's it for part one on Albert Fish.

We got some voicemails Gibbs. Do you want to check those out? Yeah, see them. Hey, Mike, me, this is Lucy Kong, New Hampshire. Just wanted to say how much I enjoy the show and hearing you guys digger and tease each other. You guys never feel able to bring a smile to my face.

I've been listening for about a month now, so I'm just starting with Stefan McDaniel Caves. Can't wait to hear it. Hope you guys have a wonderful day, and thank you for getting me through some tough time. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. All right. Love the voicemail.

Appreciate it. All right, you got a long way to go to catch up, but you'll get there, and you will eventually hear your voicemail. Now, she may be listening to current, and also catching up. Yeah. People do that.

But I get a lot of emails from people who say, I started that, I tried that. But some of them say they have OCD. Right. So they have to go in order. Go in order. Because if they don't, it messes with them. And for me, I have to go through all the prime numbers first. And then divide by pie.

Exactly. Yeah. Eventually I get there, you know. It's a whole, you got a whole Stephen Hawking thing going. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I taught him a lot. She was very fast, talker. Do you think?

Well, you know, I do condense down the voicemails. Okay. But she was really fast. Like, I take all the spaces out. Do you? Yeah, it makes it sound like people are talking a little bit faster than what they really are. So that's when you condense, it's what you're doing. Yeah, I just take this space out.

Yeah. So it sounds like they're just running. But that way we can get through it. I got you. And then I slow you down like this. Yes. Thank you. Hi, Mike.

I give me, Rebecca, here from. Germany, although I'm currently in the Caribbean for a much-needed relaxation vacation for six weeks. I just wanted to say, I love your podcast. Thank you for all the amazing content you guys put out. I'm always telling friends about you guys. I'm studying, so I can't really afford to financially support you guys at the moment, but I do try to always promote you whenever I can. I have one very broad request, maybe. I would love for you to make an episode about a killer from Germany.

I think that would be super interesting. And if you need help pronouncing any of the names, because, I mean, German is a difficult language, especially the pronunciation, just let me know. Yeah, I'll send a voice note with the pronunciations. Anyway, I love the podcast.

I love you too. You're amazing, and I can't wait for all the future episodes. And if I'm ever in the U.S., then I will be sure to come to, like, a live convention or whatever that you guys will be attending. or if you ever in Germany, please let us know. I'm sure there were more than just me out there from Germany listening.

And yeah, have a lovely weekend. Sometimes I'm sending this on Friday. No, sending you something Sunday. Oh, sorry, I'm on holiday. I have no idea what day it is. Anyway, have a lovely week then. And keep you on time checking. So Gibbs, I always get a kick when we talk to people who live in other countries and they talk about their vacations.

Right. People in the United States are thinking, Six weeks vacation. Who in the hell gets to go on a six-week vacation? It looks be nice, especially in the Caribbean or the Caribbean or some variation of that. But, yeah, I do like the way that some other countries treat not only their time off, but also their work days and their work weeks and shorter work weeks. You know, I don't know.

I think they got it right in some other places in the world. go home at lunch, take a nap for two hours. Yeah, siesta. Sometimes I feel like we're working our lives away. Yeah. But, I mean, obviously not every country. But there are a lot of countries and because we have a lot of listeners in different countries who get quite a bit of vacation, which is awesome.

Holiday. Holiday. Yeah. Go on holiday. All right. We had no mailbag this week. So that is it. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time.

But we'll be back next week. Yeah. With the second and final part on Albert Fish. it's not going to get much easier. No. I will say that. But congratulations on 400 episodes. You too, buddy.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. He's congratulating me. Right back at you. All right, everyone. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.