True Crime All The Time - Albert Fish Part 2

Episode Date: September 16, 2024

Known as the “Moon Maniac” killer, Albert Fish is one of the most infamous serial killers in United States history. Fish confessed to multiple murders, but only a few could be verified. The true number of victims will never be known. Most of the victims were children, the youngest just four years old.Join Mike and Gibby for the second and last episode of Albert Fish. Fish admitted to torturing some of his victims and then committing acts of cannibalism afterward. In addition to murder, Fish was later known for extreme sexual practices and an obsession with self-harm. A psychiatrist who examined Fish would say, “There was no known perversion that he did not practice and practice frequently.”You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 401 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing great, man. I'm actually having a really good week. Yeah? Got out of the house a couple of times. You left the house?

Yes. That's not like you. Today I went to four different locations. That might be a record. The old like drive-through restaurants or something? No. Yeah, I drove through, got a burger at one place. fries at another, apple pie at another. Now I had to do a bunch of errands and, you know,

just decided to get them all done today. And then when I had finished my errands, I decided that I deserved a Philadelphia pretzel. And you wouldn't got one. So I stopped at the Philadelphia pretzel place. Okay. So it's been a good day. So when you actually walked outside this today, the first time, you ever seen those vampire movies where they like put their head down, put their end up in the, you know, like, ah, was that you? No. No, no. I'm out a lot. But normally on the back deck, you know, much in the dogs. So I am out in the sunlight. I get sunlight. So you can handle, you can handle, uh, light. Okay. Yeah, I just don't drive a lot. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Roy Watson. What's going on, Roy? Fiona Patterson. Hey, Fiona. Brad.

What's up, Brad? Tabitha Castaneda. Hey, Castaneda. Crystal Ing. What's going on? Crystal. Catherine Kellam. There's Catherine. Julie Hilton jumped down to our highest level. Man, good old Julie. Thank you so much. John Vanderbilt. What's going on, Vandabot?

California Monroe. So that's an interesting name. Very. Yeah. What's up, Monroe? Melissa. Hey, Melissa. And Alyssa Freeword.

Well, thank you so much, Freeword. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Sarah Venema. Hey, thanks, Venema. Yeah, appreciate the new support, the continued support. We also had a couple of great PayPal donations, one from Stephen Reichwalder. Hey, Reichwalder. And one from our very good friend, Andrea Papa George.

Ah, Papa George. And Andrea is awesome. We see her every year at CrimeCon. And she always brings me coffee. She brings you the best coffee. That she makes herself. That's right. And, you know, that's the way to my heart.

She's always thinking about us. She is a very, very nice person. She's super sweet. Gibbs right now, we have an episode out on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about the disappearance of Evelyn Hartley. This one goes back a ways to lacrosse, Wisconsin, and Evelyn was babysitting at another house. Yeah. Her dad couldn't get a hold of her, gets to the house, and finds a scene that, you know, is

concerning. Yes. But I don't give too much away. We'll go through all the details. So across is that, you think that's where the, all the alligator shirts were made? Maybe. I don't know. Maybe that's where the sport was invented. Look, I have no idea.

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. So we are on to part two of Albert Fish. In part one. We talked about Fish's early life, his criminal history, and the investigations into the first murders that he's believed that have committed.

Some of it was rough. There's no doubt about it. You know, some of the letters he wrote. Some of the things that he was into are not things that you hear about most people. Now, maybe in your circle, but definitely not in my circles. Not in my circles. So are you telling everyone that you. you do not hang out with a lot of people who eat their own excrement.

Is that what you are saying to everyone? I'm confirming right now that I don't sit around with a lot of people that eat their own stuff. Well, at least you didn't say your normal line. I can neither confirm nor do not. So in part two, we'll cover his confession to the murder of Grace, but the murder trial, fish's post-trial confessions and his execution. So there's still a lot to get into. And we talked about it in episode one, right?

His known number of murders is relatively low for a pretty infamous serial killer. For sure. But he is thought to have killed many more. And how couldn't you not think that? Yeah, it's pretty hard not to. So we talked about him being arrested. And it wasn't long after the arrest that Fish confessed to the murder of Grace Bud, a heavily edited version of Fish's confession was published in local papers,

leaving out many graphic details described in the letter. And, you know, that letter did haunt me a little bit. It was graphic. It's extremely graphic. And it doesn't surprise me that, you know, local papers would have to censor that, edit that. Fish told Detective King that in the summer of 1928, he was overcome by what he called bloodthirst or a need to kill. Not the first time we've heard someone, especially a serial killer, you know, talk about this kind of inner demon, frog demon, as we have called it over the years.

but, you know, really what it boils down to is something inside them that is compelling them to want to do these very, very horrendous thing. And a lot of times I go back to the show Dexter. You know, I love Dexter. I thought that was a, you know, a great show. But in it, Dexter had this urge, as I think a lot of serial killers do, where he, he needed to let that out. Yeah.

Now, he found a way to control it to a certain degree in that he selected bad people or whatever, but the urge never went away. It was still there. He just learned how to channel it in a different direction. He was still killing people. It's not like he was a good guy. It was a way for him to feel good about it or better about it. Yes, than killing random people.

Yeah. Fish went on to say that he intended to lure Edward Budd to a remote area, restrain him, and cut off his penis, which would cause him to bleed to death. Now, there are a number of ways to cut people that will cause them to bleed to death. Why, you go straight to the genitalia, I don't know. Well, this is Albert Fish. And that may be the only. explanation you need. We're talking about Albert Fish here. After his first visit with the family,

he purchased tools such as a cleaver, saw, and butcher knife. He wrapped these items in a bundle and left it at a new stand before his second visit. But he changed his mind when he saw Grace. And right then and there, he said he decided that he would kill her instead. Captain Thomas Dugan asked Fish what made him choose Grace Bud. Fish answered is quoted by the Brooklyn Daily Eagle. When I saw her, something overtook me. I can't explain the feeling. I had intended to kill the brother, but something overpowered me.

And this is something that has scared me or, you know, is a scary thought to me that someone could take one look at you and become fixated on you or make them the object of whatever it is they want to do. That's a scary thought. It really is. It really is scary. It's not like you cut somebody off, right? Or you took somebody's parking spot or you cussed them out for no reason. You did nothing other than look a certain way, catch their attention in some way and you became the object of their fixation. Almost like they're obsessed with you or... Yeah.

I think you could use all those words, right? Fixated, obsessed, all of those. But let's not forget, he was going to kill someone. True. So it's not like he saw her and then decided to kill. He was going to kill. He just changed his mind on who he was going to kill. She was more appealing to him.

After kidnapping Grace, he returned to the new stand to collect his bundle of weapons. The two of them boarded the train, heading towards the village of Worthington in Westchester, where Fish's Wisteria Cottage was located. Grace was happy during the train ride because she'd only left the city twice in her life. Fish was distracted and almost forgot his knives. But Grace reminded him to pick it up before they got off the train. So obviously she has no idea that something horrible is going on here. She's happy to be on this train ride.

Yeah. Like, hey, mister, you forgot your package there. Make sure you bring that too. The two of them walked down a remote road until they arrived at the cottage. As mentioned in the letter, Grace played outside while Fish went to the second floor bedroom, got out his tools, and removed his clothing. He called Grace upstairs. She screamed for her mother and tried to escape.

Fish grabbed her by the throat and strangled her, which he said aroused him. And this goes back to this connection between violence slash pain and sex. We've heard this before too. Oh, absolutely. You know, for some, it's a very, very separate thing. But for others, it can be coming. interconnected. Yeah. After Grace was dead, Fish put her head on an old paint can and decapitated her. He said he caught most of the blood in the paint can, which he threw into the yard.

He's moving kind of fast. Yeah, he is. And you just wonder what's going on in his mind. You know, is the arousal part of this whole thing over? And now it's on to more of like a workman like mentality. Now I've just got to to do these things. Right. Or was there still a sexual component to some of this part also? Don't know. No. But just common sense wise, you've killed someone. Most people would want to dispose of the body as quickly as possible. You don't want it just sitting around your house. Somebody might come over. Who knows? He said he wraps some of her remains in newspaper and took it with him. He left the rest of the remains for several days. When he returned to Wisteria Cottage, he threw the remains over a stone wall at the back

of the house. King asked him why he did it. Fish said, you know, I never could account for it. I never could account for it. Basically saying, I don't know why I did it. Something I did. Fish took the police to Wisteria Cottage and led them to Grace's remains. her skull was found on December 13th, and other parts of her skeleton were found on the 14th. While the police were searching the cottage, they found an adult-sized bone in the basement. You know what you won't find in my basement? Bones. I hope not, because I'm down here a lot.

Of any sort. Now, you keep ticking me off. Maybe. Maybe you'll find your bones. The police recalled that nearly four years earlier, the body of a woman, about 20 years old, was found in the woods a mile away. She was unidentified. Residents of the neighborhood recalled that Fish was seen in the vicinity in the company of a woman.

They thought was his wife. And on one occasion, he had a young boy with him. On December 14th, Albert Fish was interrogated by assistant DA P. Francis Mara. Again, he said he was overcome by some. sort of blood thirms. But he also said that he felt sorrow after he killed grace. Do you find that strange? Yeah, I do.

I actually find it very strange because it's not what we're used to hearing from, you know, most of the serial killers we talk about. They don't have the type of empathy, most of them, that would allow them to feel any type of sorrow for their victims. According to Crime Library, Fish said, I would have given my life within a half hour after I'd done it to restore it to her. Now, you always have to take these things that are said by these killers, you know, with a grain of salt. But if he's being truthful, then he really did feel some sorrow for what he had done. But see, I have a hard time believing that because he did end up eating her.

Well, and you could also say that, well, he killed multiple people. But does that mean you couldn't feel some type of sorrow after each event, but yet this urge comes back? And even, even though you may know it's wrong, you're going to feel sorry about it afterwards, you're going to do it to satisfy this urge. I don't know, but it could be what was in play here. Yeah, I get that. the urge could overpower the feeling sorrow. Morrow asked if he raped Grace, but Fish was adamant that the thought never even entered

his head. Investigators did want to know if he was responsible for other unsolved murders and whether he committed cannibalism, as was mentioned in his letter. He was asked about the murders of Billy Gaffney and Mary Ellen O'Connor. But Fish said, as quoted by the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, I had nothing to do. do with the Billy Gaffney kidnapping or with any others. The only thing I knew about was what I read in the newspapers. Those are the kind of stories I used to like to read.

I would have given myself up anyway because I feel my days are about over. But I would not have given myself up to the police unless I learned that an innocent man was about to be convicted for this crime. Now, I don't know if I believe that at all. Sounds good the way he's saying it. but yeah, I'm with you. I don't know if I believe it. I think very few of these guys are, you know,

willing to take the step of just giving themselves up. Now, he might have been trying to make himself look good by saying, well, you know, if an innocent man was going to be convicted, I would step forward, I would write that wrong. But would he have really? I don't know about that. When the papers reported on Fish's arrest, they described him as a mild manner,

undersized house painter of 65. Undersized. They were trying to say he's a little thin or maybe short. Yeah, maybe both or one of the other. And again, we touched on this in episode one. He's 65 years old.

Yeah. And had been getting away with crimes for, you know, a very long time. Now, he was caught a bunch, didn't do that much time, was in and out of the,

you know, the system. Albert Budd, Sr. and Edward Budd were taken to the station to identify fish, they noticed that he showed a lack of emotion. Delia told news outlets at the time, we had always hoped somehow that she might still be alive somewhere. We were hoping that the man who took her might be bringing her up if I could only lay my hands on that man. So there's two things for me there. One is, you know, these family members

are saying this guy didn't show any emotion. So, you know, was what we talked about all the ruse? You know, was that just for the benefit of the police? And then you have, you know, this mother saying, if I could only get my hands on this guy. And I think a lot of family members feel like that. I always think back to kind of the victim impact statement in the Jeffrey Dahmer case. There's one lady who gets up there. I mean, she loses it. She goes after Dahmer. It takes like four or five people to hold her back.

Yeah. And I think if she could have got to him, she would have killed him. Yeah. She was that enraged. Rightfully so. I don't think I could be calm in that scenario. No. I think you would be Samuel L. Jackson in that movie with McConaughey and Sandra Bullitt.

Oh, yeah. That was a good movie. That was a great movie. But, you know, he took the. the law into his own hand. Yeah, as would I. Albert Fish Jr. commented on his father's arrest,

per the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, The Old Skunk. I knew something like this would happen sooner or later. He called his dad the old skunk. The old skunk. Okay. When Albert Jr. was told the name of the girl

who was murdered, he said, my God, that was the name he used to scream out. When he awoke out of his sleep up on Amsterdam Avenue. So the son seemed to be saying after the fact that he knew, right, sooner or later, something like this was going to happen, a little too late to come out and say it at that point. Just trying to figure out how it was for him being Albert Fish Jr. during this time. Couldn't have been good.

Albert Fish was facing indictments for kidnapping in Manhattan and first degree murder in Westchester County. newspapers published his photo, which caused witnesses in previous unsolved cases to come forward. The New York Times reported that a man identified Albert Fish as the man he chased off his farm around the time Francis McDonald, disappeared in July 1924. On December 20th, 1934, former streetcar motorman Joseph Mehan, positively IDed Albert Fish is the man he saw, boarding his trolley car in Brooklyn on February 11, 1927, with a boy that he believed to be Billy Gaffney. Seeing Fish's photo brought back memories, he recalled an older man attempting to

pacify a small crying boy who said he wanted to go home. The boy had no coat and he was crying for his mother. The old man dragged him on and off the trial. Meehan also identified fish in a prison lineup. He picked fish out quickly and said he was positive. He had the right man. And I do think this is something that's going to happen. Right. Once somebody's picture in this case, you know, it's in the newspaper, nowadays it would be all over the television, social media. It would probably just pop up on your phone for no reason. Right. Because we talk about it. And it's listening. Yes. But, you know, the effect would be the exact same, right? There would be victims out there who, if they saw the person again, would recognize them, well, now they're seeing them. And so they're coming forward.

Another trolley conductor who also saw an elderly man with a young boy around the time of Billy's disappearance could not positively identify Fish. Fish's attorney would later call him a psychiatric phenomenon. While awaiting trial, Fish spoke to Dr. Frederick Wertham, who took extensive notes on their interviews. Wortham wrote about Fish in his book, The Show of Violence. The following quotes were published by Crime Library. Dr. Wortham was shocked by Fish's meek, gentle, benevolent, and polite manner. And he wrote, if you wanted someone to entrust your children to, he would be the one you would choose. Kind of like a grandfather figure. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I'm getting. Now, obviously, this doctor knows what he's accused of doing, but I think he's talking about it as if you

didn't know this man. The way he comes off is not someone who you would be afraid of. So non-threatening, you're like, sure, if you want to take my kid to the park, that's okay. Fish didn't seem to care that he was facing execution and told the psychiatrist, I have no particular desire to live. I have no particular desire to be killed. It is a matter of indifference to me. I do not think I am altogether right. Okay.

So he's kind of saying he's not okay. Do you think he is okay? No. I don't think so either. I mean, I thought it from episode one that, there is something going on with Albert Fitch. Now, obviously he's killing people. He's hurting people in other ways as well.

My question is, was and is, how much was mental health, you know, playing a role here? Or, you know, was he just a murderous individual? And you could still debate that, right? He's talking to a psychiatrist. is it in his best interest as it sometimes is for these criminals to make a psychiatrist belief that as in his words as he said i don't think i'm all together right oh i think it's a benefit for him to say that sure but that doesn't mean it's not true but there's also an incentive so you have to look at it that way as well dr wortham asked fish if he was in

insane, Fish said, not exactly. I never could understand myself. He explained that his family had a long history of mental illness. Dr. Wortham wrote, one paternal uncle suffered from a religious psychosis and died in a state hospital. A half-brother also died in a state hospital. A younger brother was feeble-minded and died of hydrocephalus. His mother was held to be, quote, very quick. and was said to hear and see things. A paternal aunt was considered completely crazy. A brother suffered from chronic alcoholism. A sister had some sort of mental affliction.

Okay. So it sounds like there's definitely some issues going on in his family. It sounds like the whole fam family has, you know, some sort of mental issue. Fish told Dr. Wortham about his family. life, how he changed his name as a child, how he got married and his wife left him when their youngest child was three. He claimed he was married three more times, but they were not legal marriages because he never divorced his wife. Fish also discussed his obsession with sexual violence. Wertham wrote about fish sadomasochism, directed against children, particularly

boys took the lead in his sexually aggressive development. Fish told the doctor, I always had a desire to inflict pain on others and to have others inflict pain on me. I always seem to enjoy everything that hurt. I think we're getting to the nuts and bolts of this thing. You know, one thing I didn't talk about in episode one is that I did think it was a little strange because, you know, most people like, you know, most people like Albert Fish kind of stick with one gender, right? But he didn't. He hurt boys. He hurt girls. But this idea of, you know, having a desire to hurt people and to have people hurt him, enjoying things that hurt. And he's not apologetic for it. No, he's definitely not apologetic. And it also seems like he's being,

truthful, at least here with this part. Is this really strange hearing, someone say that, that the pain felt good? Well, not only did it feel good, it was sexual in nature, right? This idea of sexual violence, I think really is at the heart of Albert Fish. Wortham wrote, experiences with excreta of every imaginable kind were practiced by him actively and passively. He took bits of cotton, saturated them with alcohol, inserted them into his rectum,

and set fire to them. Okay, I didn't mean to laugh. How is that not going to hurt you very severely? First of all, the alcohol is going to burn. And this is in your rectum. And clearly he liked the pain that it inflicted on him. I mean, for me and you, it sounds bizarre. Well, I mean, this is not, you know, chips, dips, chains, whips, candle wax on the nipple type stuff.

Your normal stuff, I know. Yeah. This is severe pain, right? This is burning yourself. But not only that, he said that he did that same stuff with his small victims. Fish claimed that he had killed. or sexually abused, at least 100 children, and he bragged that he had children in every state.

And that's really sick. That's what you're bragging about. I've had a kid in every state. I've probably either killed or at least sexually abused over 100 kids. So he's a serial pedophile. Rapist, murderer. Yeah. Yeah.

But the one thing that he's not doing, is saying, well, yeah, I didn't do these things, right? He's talking pretty openly, pretty freely about some of these crimes that he committed. He said he bribed victims with money or candy. He explained that he targeted African American children or children with developmental disabilities because he assumed they would not be missed. Man, we've heard that before too. Yes.

And with all types of kill. selecting their victims on the likelihood that they wouldn't be missed. Sex workers who may or may not have a lot of ties still with their family. He said he never went to the same neighborhood twice. He claimed he had lived in at least 23 states and killed at least one child in each one. He was sometimes fired as a painter because he was linked to a murder case. Now, obviously, your suspicions against someone much harder to follow them around the country, you know, 100 years ago versus today.

You know, if you were a suspect in a case, especially a case in 23 different states, that might come up on a routine check at some point. I would think. With law enforcement. But 100 years ago, it wasn't going to. You just moved to a different state. They had no idea where you'd been or what you'd done. No one to get in those records.

No. Fish also talked about his compulsion to write obscene letters. According to Dr. Wortham, they were not the typical obscene letters based on fantasies and daydreams to supply a vicarious thrill. They were offers to practice his inclinations. With the people, he wrote his graphic suggestions too. Wortham thought that fish might be lying, especially when he told the psychiatrist that he'd been sticking needles into his body for years. And how could you, you know, hear all this stuff and at least

not have a thought that this guy is fabricating some of this stuff? This is too outlandish to be true. Yeah. I would think that would make sense. Wortham wrote, he told of doing it to other people too, especially children. At first he said he had only stuck these needles in and pulled them out again. Then he had stuck others in so far that he was unable to get them out. And they just stayed there. And it was Dr. Wertham, who took the famous X-ray image of fish's pelvis, which shows the needles inside his body. So you can have your doubts, but, you know, at least as far as it goes with the sticking of the needles, that's going to be confirmed once you do the x-ray. I just can't imagine what that had to feel like.

But, you know, it sounds to me like, okay, you start dabbling, right? You're sticking needles in your body. You're pulling them out. Okay, it's painful. You're sticking them in farther. You're pulling them out. At a certain point, you're sticking them in so far. You can't get them back out again. I mean, a painful sleep. You can't sit down. I don't know. I think there'd be a lot of problems with that. Every time you move? Yeah. A little cough going on.

Could you imagine? Fish told Dr. Wortham that he began to experience hallucinations and delusions. Around age 55, he had visions of Christ and his angels. He began to be engrossed in religious speculations about purging himself of iniquities and sins. Atonement by physical suffering and self-torture, human self-torture. human sacrifices. He would go on endlessly with quotations from the Bible

all mixed up with his own sentences, such as happy is he that taketh thy little ones and bashest their heads against the stones. Okay. Obviously it does not say that in the Bible. No. That is all Albert Fish.

And we did mention it in part one that Fish believed God ordered him to torment and castrate young boy. Albert Fish's trial started on March 11th, 1935. Fish pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. I would say at that point, take a shot. Yeah, I would think, why wouldn't you plead like that? I think anybody sitting there is going to kind of believe it.

Wouldn't you have to think somebody would have to be insane to do what he did? especially, you know, in the 1930s. Now, we know a lot more today about people. Doesn't mean that some people still aren't legally insane and found to be so, but I agree with you. I think the average person back then more likely than not would have thought, how could someone not insane have done this stuff? The prosecutor was Chief ADA Albert Gallagher.

James Dempsey led the defense. Dempsey planned to attack the competence of the psychiatrist, who observed Fish at Bellevue Hospital in 1930, and found him saying, he also wanted to argue that fish was suffering from lead collic, a type of dementia experienced by house painters who worked with lead paint. I know you ate a lot of lead paint chips as a child. And even today,

if I can find them, I'll sprinkle them on a salad. They're very hard to find. But you can find them still. As far as I know, it has not affected you negatively at all. No, I'm good. I mean, really, if you think about it between, you know, no car seats, lead paint, asbestos, it's a wonder we're still all alive. It is surprising. And all the smoking at dinner.

ADA Gallagher told the jury per crime library. Now, in this case, there is a presumption of sanity. The proof briefly will be that this defendant is legally saying, and that he knows the difference between right and wrong and the nature and quality of his acts, that he is not defective mentally, that he had a wonderful memory for a man of his age, that he has complete orientation. As to his immediate surroundings, that there is no mental deterioration, but that he is sexually abnormal, that he is known medically as a sex pervert or a sex psychopath that his acts were abnormal, but that when he took this girl from her home on the third day of June 1928, and in doing

that act and in procuring the tools with which he killed her, bringing her up here to Westchester County and taking her into this empty house, surrounded by woods in the back of it, he knew it was wrong to do that and that he is legally saying and should answer for his acts. First of all, that was one sentence separated by about 35 different comments. Yeah, but it makes sense. What he's saying? Right? He's trying to say, hey, just because he did this horrific thing doesn't mean he had mental issues.

He's just a dirty, sick old man. He is a sex pervert, sex psychopath. That's what he called. James Dempsey told the jury about Fish's early life and his obsession was self-harm. He then said, in spite of all these brutal, criminal, and vicious proclivities, there is another side to this defendant. He has been a very fine father. He never once in his life laid a hand on one of his children. He says, grace at every meal in his house. In 1917, when the youngest one of his six children was three, his wife left him. And from that, time down to until shortly before the Grace Bud murder. In 1928, he was a mother and father to those

children. So we just talked about what the prosecution is trying to do. And now we see what the defense is trying to do. You know, he had a bad life growing up. But he's been a great father. He's never heard his children. In fact, his wife left him and he was left to raise them on his own. And okay, all of that may be true. He also says grace at every meal in his house. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but, you know, he might be trying to reach some people who are religious. Maybe they're thinking Gibbs. Well, you know, if he says grace, how bad could he be? Could he really say grace and then do all these things if he's that religious? Just like what you said, you know, how could some of these people not think that he had mental health issues?

He was not legally sane. Grace Budd's parents and her brother identified Albert in court. Albert Budd left the witness stand and approached Fish to get a closer look because he had limited vision. The New York Daily News reported that he lifted fish's chin, shouted that's him, that's the man who took my Gracie away. And then he took a swing at him. The deputy stopped him before he actually hit Albert Fish. Albert Budd returned to the witness stand in tears. So, you know, first of all, your eyesight's got to be pretty bad if you have to be touching

someone's chin to know whether or not that's him. And my thought is, was that really a ploy just to get close enough to try to hit him? I think it maybe so. But it's pretty sad that you're going to go through all of that and then still miss. Still miss. Not connect. Each juror read the letter written by fish to deal you bud where he admitted to committing cannibalism. That'd be rough to read that letter.

For the jurors. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was rough for you and I to talk about it in episode one. I also think it's going to be pretty damning, right? If you're a juror. The prosecutor presented Grace Bud's skull to the jury and explained that it was found at the spot that Fish led authorities to in December. The defense motioned for a mistrial, which was denied.

I'm assuming they were thinking at that point, hey, things aren't really going our way. Mistrial would be great right now. The defense's insanity argument suffered a major blow when Fish's confession, where he acknowledged that he knew what he did was wrong, was Redding Court. Fish also admitted that he avoided the police as much as possible after committing the murder. I'm sure his defense team was like, huh, why can't we get this thrown out so they don't have to read about what he said?

Yeah, I mean, it kind of flies in the face, obviously, of an insanity defense. You in your own word said you knew what you had done was wrong. Right. There was pre-planning. We know that. We talked about it. And then obviously, you know, if you go to the extent where you're avoiding the police, well, you don't need to avoid the police unless you know you did something very wrong. I just think we'd be hard to defend. Oh, yeah. I would say the defense had a pretty steep uphill battle. Fish said in his confession, I realized that I had done wrong when I left the house after killing grace. But Mostly, it came when I got home. I always watched the papers. And I would have come forward.

If anyone else had been convicted, I realized that my best days were over. I knew I'd sent. Again, I don't really believe some of that. Yes. If you're a serial killer, would you be watching the papers? Would you be watching television nowadays? Yeah. Yeah.

The internet. You want to hear them talk about what you did. You want to see what they're saying about what you did. You want to see what they're saying about what you had done. But this statement that, you know, he's made multiple times saying, well, you know, if they'd arrested someone else, I'd have come forward and taken the rap for it. I don't believe that. I don't believe it for a second. The defense argued that Fish's acts of cannibalism supported their insanity claim because no sane person would do such a thing.

However, he had no physical proof that Fish committed cannibalism. only his letter. And I think that that does somewhat go back to your point. He's making the argument that no sane person would ever do that. And I'm sure if you're a juror in the 1930s, you're probably thinking something similar. James Dempsey then called on Albert's children to testify on his behalf. According to the Daily News,

Albert Fish Jr. testified as long ago as 1925. I knew that my father stuck needles into his flesh. My brother told me about it. I asked my father about it once when I found needles hidden in a book and he said, certain feelings come over me sometimes. And when they do, I have to stick needles into my body. Okay. It's a strange thing.

It is a strange thing. Now, they have a whole TV show about people, you know, having compulsions and doing what most of us would consider strange things, right? It's called my strange addiction. My daughter loves it. My oldest daughter is like when you eat paper towel or toilet paper? Sure. Didn't you do one of those things? I used to eat paper towels as a very small child. Yeah. For reasons unknown. But yeah, there have been people on there that do that. There's all kinds of strange thing that people feel compelled to do. Albert Jr. also described his father is having what he called moon madness saying he ate raw meat. When the moon was full, he would eat almost nothing else.

And his eyes would be wild looking and his face flushed. I noticed it often. I mean, this is like werewolf in London type stuff for Teen Wolf, if you want to go a little bit lighter. Stick with wherewolf in London because I like the song too. Yeah. But he's basically saying what? The full moon turned him into a different person?

Yeah. And almost like an animal? Had to get his meat. Another witness was 17-year-old Mary Nicholas, one of the seven children of murder Nicholas, one of Albert's wives. She testified per the Daily News, my two brothers, my little sister and I used to play with him. He would go to his room every night and come back wearing only a pair of brown trunks.

Then he would play a guessing game he called Buck Buck Buck, how many hands up. He gave us a stick. And when he didn't guess right, we'd beat him with the stick. He'd tell us to hit him harder. Wow. So again, you know,

going back to a few episodes ago, we were talking about dominatrix, BDSM, stuff like that. It's one thing if you want to play some of these types of games with another consenting adult. You know, if both,

of you're into that. Okay, that's your prerogative. But these are small children. And my thought is he's deriving some type of sexual gratification from this game. Yeah. Them hitting him. Sounds like he got off on it. Yeah. She also testified that fish lit fires every night on their bathroom door and tried to get the children to stick pins in their fingers. Dude was into a lot of stuff. I'm, you know, I'm still picturing these alcohol soaked cotton balls on fire in his ass. Yeah. You know, that, that's a hard picture to wipe out. You can't just hit the delete button and it goes away. This is this hard thing to wipe, period. It'd be hard to wipe after. That's for sure. Albert's oldest daughter Anna Collins testified about one incident with her father. She said,

I found him lying on the floor, wrapped in a carpet about 2 a.m. one morning in 1917. I argued with him about it, but he told me that St. John the Apostle had told him to do it. He often heard voices and said the house was haunted. Albert, wrap yourself in that carpet and lay there. I mean, if this stuff was true, it doesn't sound like someone who, you know, really has full control of all their faculties. Right. They've got something going on inside their head. Four defense experts testified that Fish was not of sound mind at the time of the murder. They cited his obsession with sadomasochism and the x-ray as evident. Now, to me, that's not enough evidence. Number one, just because you're a sadomasochist doesn't mean you're not of sound mind.

Okay, true. And I don't think on its own, sticking needles inside your body absolutely means that you would be or should be deemed legally insane. I agree with that. Westchester psychiatrist Dr. Henry T. Kelly testified for the defense that no man who stuck 29 needles into his body for a thrill should be convicted of murder. Okay, I think you're setting a pretty dangerous precedent there. Yeah, I don't like the way that was said. So if I know I'm going to murder someone, I just need to stick some needles in my body. And that will prove that I'm not responsible for my actions.

Dr. Frederick Wortham testified that he diagnosed Fish with paranoid psychosis. He characterized Fish's personality as introverted and extremely, infantilistic. Infantilistic. Don't hear that today. Well, in my world. What are you saying? I don't hear that word.

Why would you? Are you a doctor? Are you a psychiatrist? Do you or do you not work in the financial industry? Why would you even hear that word? I'm all bringing it up though. Somehow, I'll work it in. If any, if you did hear it, it would be someone's,

saying it about you. Oh. In a 15,000 word statement, defense attorney James Dempsey detailed Fish's life and ended by asking the doctor how he would describe Fish's mental condition. Wortham simply said, he is insane. Say 15,000 word statement? Yes. Wow. That's a lot. It's a lot of words. It is a lot of words. That's not something you're going to get through in five minutes. No. Wortham told the jury about Fish's history and his confession where he claimed to have murdered or abused 100 children. As quoted by the daily news, Wortham said, I do not believe that this murder for which he's on trial here is the only one that he has ever committed. Well, that I think

we can all agree on. Dr. Wortham believed Fish experienced religious psychosis. For example, his children saw him hitting himself on his nude body with a nail-studded paddle until he was covered with blood. They also saw him stand alone on a hill with his hands raised shouting, I am Christ. So first of all, he's nude in front of his young children. Right.

Or however old they are at that point. And then secondly, he's hitting himself with a nail-studded paddle. But does that mean he's insane? No. To me, it doesn't necessarily. mean that. I think there are a number of people who practice or have practiced over the years

this same sort of ritual. Yes. And it, and it, I think a lot of times is religious in nature, right? They are punishing themselves for something. I don't know how many of them do it in the nude in front of their children. Fish told Dr. Wortham, what I did must have been right or an angel would have stopped me just as an angel stopped Abraham in the Bible from sacrificing his son. Again, as you would ask the question in a trial that happened today, you know, what's the truth here? Is this what this guy really believes? Or is this what he thinks is going to go along with his legal insanity defense? Probably the latter. Well, probably. Probably. Probably. Well, Probably, but my point is it's really not all that different testimony-wise from a trial that would happen today.

That's true. Yeah. The prosecution emphasized that Fish tried to conceal his acts, which indicated a sense of guilt. Wortham testified that Fish was intelligent enough to know that he might be arrested, but that he didn't regard the killing is wrong from his point of view. Well, the key word there was his point of view. And I understand what the psychiatrist is saying here, but at the same time, it does seem strange to me. You know, Fish doesn't think it's wrong to kill from his point of view, but he knows that others will think it's wrong and that he might be arrested for it. Neurologists and psychiatrist, Dr. Henry Riley, also testified that Grace's murder was a human sacrifice.

and the cannibalism was a religious sacrament to fish. According to the Daily News, Riley testified he told me he had a direct command to sacrifice a virgin so that she could not live to become a herald. I talked to him for four hours in prison and gradually he revealed to me his belief that he had often been visited by Christ and had been given definite messages directing his mission in life. He believed that he was qualified to be an evangelist. And in his mind, he associated the eating of human flesh and blood with the communion sacrament. Okay. So this guy spent four hours with fish. Was Albert Fish just feeding this guy a line of total BS? Or did he really

believe all this stuff? And I think that's why the jury, you know, his job is so tough in many trial. Does some of this stuff clash with what he said in his confession? And I would say, yeah, the answer is yes. So did he just have time to think about it? Was he coached by his defense? By the time, he started talking to some of the psychiatrists. And I would say yes. I would lean that way too, but I don't know that for sure. But it doesn't matter, right? What matters is what the jury thing. Dr. Smith Eli Jeliff was the third expert to testify that the murder was a religious ritual. In Albert's mind, he imagined he was killing Edward Budd. Fish's conscience and intelligence broke down.

The psychosis of a divine command justified to act in his mind. And to me, this is fascinating. You have a number of doctors who spent however long they spent with Albert Fitz. Now, he's basically telling them all the same thing, right? I was told by Jesus Christ that I had to do this, this, or this, but is that the truth? I mean, they're not lying because I'm sure that's what he told them. The question is, how honest is he being? Well, can there be a little bit of truth and what he's saying?

I think there always can be a little bit of truth. There can also be a little bit of untruths. The prosecution called on for psychiatrists as rebuttal witnesses. One of them was Dr. Minas Gregory, who observed Fish at the Bellevue Psychiatric Unit in 1930. Dr. Gregory testified that Fish was abnormal but same. Other people who had the very same characteristics did not break the law. Well, there is no doubt this guy was abnormal. I mean, I think that's a euphemism for,

Albert Fish on March 22nd, 1935. Albert Fish was found guilty of first degree murder for the death of Grace Bud. He was formally sentenced to death at Sing Sing Prison. On March 25th, he thanked the judge for his sentence. Thanks, Judge. Appreciate that. So obviously, gives at the end of the day, what we have is the jury weighing all of this stuff and not buying the fact that this.

murder was some sort of religious sacrifice, commandment by God, or that it involved Albert Fish being legally insane. That day, Fish confessed to four murders, two of which never took place outside his own imagination, according to the daily news. Authorities believed he was trying to save himself from execution by confessing and being sent to a psychiatric unit. Fish admitted to killing a 24-year-old man with an intellectual disability named Thomas Bedden in Wilmington, Delaware in 1910. He said that he took Bedden to his residence and they had a sexual relationship. After 10 days, he took bed into an old farmhouse where he tortured him for two weeks.

Wow, two weeks. He claimed that he tied him up and cut off half of his penis. Just half. The front half, I assume. I think it'd have to be. He said he intended to kill Bedden, dismember his body, and take the remains home. But he worried about getting caught.

He poured peroxide over this man's wound, wrapped it in a handkerchief, left the guy $10 and kissed him before he left. He said he wasn't sure what happened to bed. So first of all, can we talk about pouring peroxide over somebody's half cut Johnson? It would hurt like, you know. Yes. That is not going to feel good.

I mean, peroxide on a little cut doesn't feel good. But down there, ouch. And then, you know, I'm picturing in my mind, Albert Fish wrapping this up in a handkerchief, pulling out $10, giving this guy a kiss and saying, I'll see you when I see you. At least I left you half of it, buddy. The Wilmington police found that Thomas Bedden did not exist in case records. A Manhattan criminal used this story as the basis for confession years earlier.

Older officers reported that the man's confession was investigated and proven false. So it wasn't recorded. But Fish might have seen the story in a paper and even saved the article. And my thought is, you know, if somebody tortures you for two weeks, cuts off a large part of your penis, you're going to go to the authorities if you get loose at some point. I would hope. Fish also admitted to stabbing a young African American boy whom he held prisoner in a houseboat on the Potomac River in Washington, D.C. in 1919. He claimed he kept a boy prisoner for weeks, stabbed him. and left him for dead when he heard a boat coming.

The lead of the DC detective said there were no cases that matched his description in their records. And I think it was because of some of these that the police doubted Fish when he confessed to the murders of Billy Gaffney and Francis McDompton. But Queens police went to talk to him. Fish said he took Billy to a dump at the foot of Riker Avenue and Astoria Queens. According to the daily news, he abused the boy, choked him, then cut his body up. He admitted to committing acts of cannibalism before he distributed Billy's remains in four sacks and tossed them in nearby swamp holes. So he said, yep, I did eat some of the body. And it's interesting that he's trying to confess, right, to some of these crimes, murders.

And the police are doubting him because they think his reasoning behind him. did is that you know he's trying to get sent to a psychiatric unit when speaking about francis mcdonnell he said i picked the boy up and tried to borrow a knife i finally got one then i took him to an abandoned truck over near port richmond i was about to cut up his body when a milk driver came by so i strangled the boy and ran a grand jury in richmond county had indicted him for this murder earlier that year. Fish described to Dr. Wortham, how he committed cannibalism in the Billy Gaffney case. Wortham wrote per crime library. His state of mind, while he described these things in minute detail, was a peculiar mixture. He spoke in a matter-of-fact way, like a housewife, describing her favorite methods of cooking,

but at times his voice and facial expression indicated a kind of satisfaction. He spoke. He spoke of satisfaction and ecstatic through. I said to myself, however you define the medical and legal borders of sanity, this certainly is beyond that border. And I do kind of want to follow up on some of these psychiatrists. You know, again, we're talking about the 20s and the 30s. It seemed to me that at least one, maybe more of them thought this guy was insane solely based on the fact that they thought no sane person could actually do these things. You'd have to be insane to do them, right? Right.

And that's obviously not how a diagnosis would happen today. We know sane people commit all kinds of horrible life. Absolutely. Fish also wrote a letter to his lawyer James Dempsey describing how he drank the boy's blood, dismembered him, and took home his remains. He then made a stew out of the remain. The following letter was published by Crime Library. I brought him to the Riker Avenue dumps.

There is a house that stands alone. Not far from where I took him, I took the boy there, stripped him naked and tied his hands and feet, and gagged him with a piece of dirty rag. I picked out of the dump. Then I burned his clothes, threw his shoes in the dump.

Then I walked back and took the trolley to 59. Street at 2 a.m. and walked from there home. Next day at 2 p.m. I took tools, a good heavy cat of nine tails, homemade, short handle, cut one of my belts in half, slit three halves in six strips, about eight inches long. I whipped his bear behind till the blood ran from his leg. I cut off his ears, nose, slid his mouth from ear to ear, gouged out his eyes. He was dead. He was dead. He was dead. He I stuck the knife in his belly and held my mouth to his body and drank his blood. I picked up four old potato sacks and gathered a pile of stones. Then I cut him up.

I had a grip with me. I put his nose and ears and a few slices of his belly in the grip. Then I cut him through the middle of his body just below the belly button. Then through his legs about two inches below his behind. I put this in my grip with a lot of feet. paper. I cut off the head, feet, arms, hands, and the legs below the knee. This I put in sacks weighed with stones.

Tied the ends and threw them into the pools of slimy water. You will see all along the road going to North Beach. I came home with my meat. I had the front of his body I liked best. His monkey and peewees and a nice little fat behind to roast in the oven and eat. I made a stew. out of his ears, nose, pieces of his face and belly. I put onions, carrots, turnips, celery, salt, and pepper. It was good. Then I split the cheeks of his behind open, cut off his monkey and peewees,

and wash them. I put strips of bacon on each cheek of his behind and put them in the oven. Then I picked four onions and when the meat had roasted about a quarter of an hour, I poured about a pint of water over it for gravy and put in the onions. At frequent intervals, I basted his behind with a wooden spoon, so the meat would be nice and juicy. In about two hours, it was nice and brown, cooked through. I never ate any roast turkey that tasted half as good as his sweet fat little behind it. I eat every bit of the meat in about four days. His little monkey was as sweet as a nut. But his pee-wees, I couldn't chew. I threw them in the toilet.

Pee-wees. Well, my thought was monkey was his hoo-ha. Yeah. And Pee-wees was his testicles. I gotcha. That was my thought, but I don't know. Okay. Either way, this is some sick shit.

Very sick. I mean, the one we read in part one was extremely graphic and sick. This is as well. The Hebrew recounts it. just as if you happened right then it's very detailed yeah i mean down to you know how he did the cooking how long how much water and it sounds like when he and i hate to say butchered the boy's body he knew exactly what he wanted yeah he said it right he had his meat to me that meant he kept the parts that he felt were going to be the best as if he's done it before because he's

He knows what the best is. So I'm going to ask you a question. Does this sound like a man who's confessing to murders he didn't commit in order to get sent to a psychiatric ward? Or does this sound like he actually did commit these murders? I think he committed the murders. I'm leaning that way too. I believe he did. I know the authorities said that they thought he was just, you know, throwing stuff out there to try

to get sent to a psychiatric ward, but I don't know. This is very detailed. And he was suspected of these murders. People thought they saw him with at least one of the boys, right? Yeah. He was indicted for one of the murders. And this even aligns with the letter he sent to the mom. Yeah, it's got a very similar tone to it.

Now, that in and of itself doesn't make it. truthful. It could just be the way that he writes, but days after the confession, a man from Staten Island came forward to identify fish as the man who tried to lure his eight-year-old daughter Beatrice Keel into the woods near the area where Francis McDonald was murdered days later. Beatrice recognized fish when she saw him in his prison cell. So again, you have him admitting to this really nasty stuff, murder, dismemberment, cannibalism. But you also have a number of people stating that they saw Albert Fish, either with, you know, a boy who looked like some of these children who were later found murdered

or in the area where they were found murdered, it's hard for me to believe that he's just making all of this up. Fish's attorney put forth a plea of insanity to the Court of Appeals on October 23, 1935, to try to save his client's life. But the appeal was denied. The day before the execution, the Daily News reported, bent, bleary, and bearing the full burden of his 66 years, he seemed scarcely able to totter the few steps down the corridor that has but one ending. His thin lips quivered constantly in an almost, meaningless mumble, I don't know why I'm here. Everything seems so hazy. This is a sad day for me.

On January 16th, 1936, Albert Fish was executed at Sing Sing Prison in New York. He entered the death chamber at 11.06 p.m. and was pronounced dead at 11.09 p.m. Three minutes. Not long. Didn't take long back then. According to the history channel, Albert told the guards, it will be a supreme thrill, the only one I haven't tried. Oh, wow. So that's either bravado, right, trying to sound blustery while you're making fudge rounds in your pants at the same time, or he really felt that way. By the way, those fudge rounds would just be desserts for him.

That is true. I didn't even think about that. I mean, we know he was into paint. We know he equated. sex with violence. Now, to be executed in three minutes, I don't know how much of a sexual thrill you're going to get out of that. Hopefully you got zero. The New York Times reported that he sat quietly on the chair. Albert Fish's last statement was a handwritten note, which he gave to his attorney James Dempsey. Dempsey told the press, I will never show it to anyone. It was the most

filthy string of obscenities I have ever read. Did he read the other? Did he read the other? two notes. Yeah. Maybe this one was directed just towards him, his attorney. And what he was going to do to him or, you know, so as we wrap up our coverage of Albert Fish, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's impossible that investigators will ever truly know the number of victims that Fish killed. He remains one of the most infamous serial killers in American history.

He did commit horrific crimes against innocent children. By his own estimation, over 100 children. True. Now, it's hard for me to believe that he didn't kill a lot more than he is known to have murdered. I truly believe his number is higher. His number of the people that he hurt or the children he hurt might be more in the hundreds.

Yeah. You know, when you talk about having victims in every state, also, can we go back to the fact that this guy lived at one point in 23 different states? It's a lot. It is. It also, to me, adds to the probability that his victim count is probably much higher. But I think when you look at Albert Fish, part of it, why he's so infamous revolves around these letters. He writes a letter to the mother of a girl he murdered. And that letter was so nasty.

It was hard to read. Very disturbing. This letter that we just talked about, again, extremely nasty, hard to read, but also very, very descriptive. Now, can you say for sure he didn't make it up? No, you can't say that. For me, based on everything we know about him, I feel like it's true. Well, let me put it to you this way.

If you had to bet your house on it, which way would you go? Oh, yeah. I'd bet it. Yeah. Yeah. I'd roll that dice. I would too. If I had to pick aside, I'm going with the fact that he killed these boys as well and probably

quite a few others. Yeah. I certainly would bet your house any day. You already tried once. Yeah. I'm sorry about that. But, you know, these confession letters, I do think they're a large part of the reason why he's garnered so much attention over the years. He's so infamous.

Anytime you get into the area of cannibalism, you know, you're at the extreme end of the spectrum. For sure. And people are going to be fascinated by that in a way because, again, we can't fast. how someone could sexually assault a child. We can't fathom how someone could murder a child. We can't fathom how someone could cut up and eat another human being. No, we cannot, but we know it happens. And when you, you know, you talk about somebody like Dahmer, fish, those people are, you know, going to live on in infamy. Oh yeah. Because of, of what they did and how they did it. But that's for our episodes on Albert Fish.

We got some voicemails Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, Mike, and Givie. This is Ryan from Orlando. I'm a pro wrestler myself, and I just finished listening to the Chris Vanuque case, the first episode and the second episode. Something that I noticed is that the CTE came because of the falls, maybe all the

share shots, all the stuff that happens in the ring. So is that related anyway to the trauma that some kids have when they fell and hit their head and have it ever been like Zodia that that causes CTE as well because I'm going to pay attention and try searching for the information but I wanted to like touch base with you guys about it because it's like curious not knowing about it like they may fall and get CTE because of the head injury they got is not related to sports but they still have it so anyway guys thank you for the time and keep your own time ticking bye yeah I don't know what studies have been done on killers as far as CTE, but my thought is, is that the answer is probably yes. You know, some of these head injuries

are causing C.T. Does it factor in to what they later go on to do? It's always been theorized that the head injury part has something to do with it. Sure, it does. And, you know, could CTE play a factor? And I would say, yeah, probably, it probably could. Odds are good. Hi, this is Sagan. I'm calling to say I am so excited that you're going to say I'm so excited. I had a feeling like that. But I just want to call in and say I'm so excited.

I'm not talking to you. All right. Well, we're glad you were excited. Yes, and we're glad you called in. Absolutely. We appreciate it very much. We had some mailbag gifts. Mike Walston,

sent us in some more Harley poker chips. Okay. And someone sent in a really cool Denver license plate. for the studio fridge. Awesome. I just don't know who it was. Okay.

Well, we appreciate you. Yes. It came from New York, but I don't think the person that sent it, probably sent it from New York. They might have ordered it, and that's where it came from. But there was nothing in the bag. Well, that's where CrimeCon is going to be in Denver. So now we got a magnet on the fridge to remind us. And you know who you are, whoever sent it.

So thank you. all right buddy that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and keep your own time ticking