True Crime All The Time - Alfred Brown

Episode Date: August 28, 2023

In January 1978, Alfred Brown murdered his mother, father, and sister with a rifle he received as a Christmas gift. After he was arrested, Alfred showed little emotion and didn’t offer much explanation for why he killed his family, only that his parents were “bugging” him about his grades.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murders committed by Alfred Brown. After he was caught and charged, it was decided that Brown would be tried as an adult. He admitted his guilt, but his trial centered around his mental health. Like many trials that we talk about, the experts on each side disagreed. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 347 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey man, I'm doing good about you. Doing pretty well. Yeah. You know, it's a little rough over here. My daughter's been at college for a week now.

But my wife and I are making it through. She's like the, uh, what's the female version of Frank the tank? My daughter? Yeah. Gosh, I hope not. I hope she don't act. nothing like what I did in college or she's going to be in for it. But no, she's doing pretty good. Good. Good. So, and we're making it okay. Yeah.

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. And then we'll talk about all the stuff that we have out. We had Lori McKenzie. What's going on, Lori? Gene Gwen. Hey, thanks, Gene. Claudine George jumped out at our highest level. Thank you, Claudine. Cody. Hey, Cody. Tammy Kilpatrick. Well, thank you, Kilpatrick. Aaron Chamberlain. What's going on, Aaron? Mickey Groom. Hey, Mickey. Sandra Forsier.

There's the Forcier. Jordan Parker. You sound like you were struggling. That's, it's just Jordan. Did I sound like I was starting? Yeah. Vicki Extram. What's going on, Extram?

Carly Richardson. Hey, Carly. Kara Woodall. What's going on, Woodall? Chris B jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Chris. And last but not least, Tim Beak. Well, Beak, how are you?

Yep. And then if we go back into the vault, This week we selected Cammy Hana. Well, thank you, Cammy. Yeah, appreciate the new and continued Patreon support. And then we had some great PayPal donations from Debbie Hanlon. Thank you, Debbie. Deborah Jacobs.

Yep, Deborah. And Kendra. So thanks to everyone. Absolutely. Who chooses to support the show. Gibbs, we have a lot out right now. We do. We dropped a Patreon episode on Saturday night about Wayne Cousin.

So we headed over to England. Yeah. And Wayne Cousins was a police officer who raped and murdered a woman kind of using his police officer credentials. Yeah. And, you know, that's a very, very scary thing. It's really scary. We also have an episode out right now on Unsolved about the disappearance of Leslie Ball. He was 71 years old.

He was. At the time that, uh, he did. disappeared. Retired, living the life in Queensland. And there are a number of individuals that we talked about. So this will be one that people can really kind of weigh. I think so. The different pieces of information about each person and come to their own conclusion. I think so. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. we are talking about Alfred Brown. In January,

in 1978, Alfred Brown murdered his mother, father, and sister with a rifle that he received as a Christmas gift after he was arrested. Alfred showed little emotion, didn't really offer much explanation for why he killed his family,

only that his parents were bugging him about his grades. So this is bigger than just, oh, you shoot your eye out from the, uh, Holiday show. A Christmas story? Yeah.

Yeah. To be honest with you, it's one of the first things that went through my head as I was researching this case. Now, obviously, we know that the circumstances around this case are much, much more tragic. But it was kind of natural, right? You get a gun as a Christmas gift to kind of go back to that movie. We've all seen it so many times.

And we're going to get more into it. it, but to think that a 15-year-old could kill. Just that alone is disturbing to people. Yeah, I mean, for me, it was more disturbing seven years ago. Before he started doing a lot of true crime. Yeah. That's true. But still very disturbing. It is. I mean, we're disturbed by a lot of things, maybe less so. I shouldn't say we're not disturbed. We're not as shocked. Yeah. About certain things than we were, you know, before we started doing the podcast. But to me, a 15-year-old is still shocking. That is just so young. And then to hear that he says he killed his family because, or most of the members of his family, because they were bugging him.

His parents were bugging him. About his grades. Yeah. Who doesn't do that? Unless you've got a kid who's a straight-A student with no need for, for, for, you know, for, you know, for, you know, for, you don't know, from any help from you. And here's another case where on the Patreon, we were talking about a police officer and the trust that you have with police officers. And here it's a family member, right? You think with a family member,

you should be safe. Oh, yeah. You shouldn't have to worry about is my son, daughter, mom dad, going to do anything terrible to know. And I think that's why some of these cases are so shocking. Alfred's parents were Wilfrid,

and Yushika Brown. Wolfred met Yushika when he was serving in the U.S. Army. She was raised in Tokyo, Japan. She was the daughter of a prominent Japanese military official. They got married in Japan in 1955 and later moved to Massachusetts. They had two daughters, Elizabeth and Durina, followed by Alfred, who was born in Salem, Massachusetts. The family lived in Massachusetts until 1970.

Then they moved to. to Tokyo and they stayed there for the next seven years. Okay, maybe a little bit of culture shock. Oh, I think so. Not for her because she grew up there. But, you know, for the kids, I would think especially from Salem, Massachusetts to Tokyo, Japan. With a world of difference. I would say it is. You'd like it there. I would. I love Japanese culture. I've always wanted to travel to Japan. I like everything samurai. I love sushi. I know you do.

Alfred described himself as a quiet child with a fiery temper, according to the Boston Globe. In the U.S., he was bullied for being biracial. According to Alfred, the children in Tokyo didn't accept him either. So this made him feel as though he didn't fit in pretty much wherever he was. Wilfred had worked as an insurance agent in Tokyo, but he lost his job in 1977. In May of that year, the family moved back to the U.S. and settled in Topsfield, Massachusetts. Both Elizabeth and Dorena went to college against their father's orders. Elizabeth went to school in Hawaii.

Doreena tried to end her life freshman year and moved back home. It's kind of strange for a father to not want their kids to go to college. Yeah, and there really wasn't a lot of context around it. I get it. It's the 1970s. But, you know, a lot of women were going to college. And I'm with you. What kind of father doesn't want, you know, his kids to go to school?

I understand some fathers don't want to pay for it. Right. But to say, hey, I'm ordering you not to go to college. I don't want you to better your life. I don't get that at all. in the fall of 1977, Alfred started attending Masconomit Regional High School. And we said, right, he was only 15 years old. At the time of the murders, his mother was 49, his father 45, Elizabeth was 21, and Dorina was 20.

Relatives described the family as close-knit and loving, according to the Boston Globe. Now, you and I talk all the time about what. people come out and say after a tragedy about, you know, especially the victims. Of course. Yeah. Was this a close-knit and loving family? Maybe so. Was every single member of the family close-knit and loving? I don't know. Because, you know, there is that thing where, you know, friends, neighbors, even other relatives, they're not seeing all of the interactions day in and day out. I think sometimes, you know, things look better on the outside, you know, than on the inside. And why is that? As we've talked about, my thought is people show you what they want you to see.

Sure. Perception. And normally what they want you to see is the very best side of you, your family. That's what you put forward. Yeah, I don't know if people really want to show the real dynamics of their family. I know it'd be interesting to see that. If everybody would just be, this is how we are, we're going to argue right here. I don't know. In the middle of this restaurant, that's because that's what we do if we were home. I don't know. That might be scary if everybody showed their true self, but it is a thing. There's no way that everybody knows what's going on with a family behind closed doors. It's just not possible. Yeah. Because Alfred had a very different, view of his home life. Alfred said about his family as quoted by the Boston Globe. It was tense all the time.

I was having a lot of tension with them. We used to argue a lot over my school grades. And I get it. I think that happens in a lot of families, right? We want our kids to do well in school. And if they're not, do most parents push a little bit, get on them a little bit. I would say, yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. Well, maybe his parents expected him to get good grades because his sister's got good grades to get in college. Yeah, it's possible. But, you know, let's go back to the close-knit and loving family. Maybe they all were, with the exception of Alfred. I don't know. He doesn't seem to describe, at least from his point of view, a close-knit and loving family. He didn't view it that way, at least. Alfred was a quiet, average student. No one noticed.

anything unusual about him, didn't report any incidents of concerning behavior, but he didn't really have any close friends. So he spent a lot of time alone reading book. And I don't know that there's anything wrong with that. I think there are many kids who have trouble making friends. Maybe they'd just rather be alone. They like being by themselves. Or being alone? Yeah. Or they just like reading. Yeah. One of the other. I love reading. But according to common, Wealth versus Alfred K. Brown, Alfred kept a collection of what we're called terrorist books and books about firearms. A little foreshadowing.

And a little concerning. Yeah. You know, really it's kind of concerning for anyone, but I think especially for a 15-year-old. You got a whole collection of books about terrorists and firearms and probably not the best reading choices for someone that age. No. He said that he experienced thoughts. of ending his life after the family moved back to the U.S.

And he also considered killing his parents. So that early he was having those. Yeah, I think this does show you. This wasn't kind of a spur of the moment thing. He had thought about it for some time. Alfred later said, according to Commonwealth versus Brown, the music I played was too loud. I would sleep too late.

And they were bugging me. And I just got sick of it. That's like everything a parent tells a child. right. I remember hearing my parents say to me and my brothers, you sleep too late, you stay up too late. Turn your damn music down. Get your ass out of bed. Yeah. No, I get that. And I think if you flip it around and look at it from Alfred's point of view, almost everybody has thought that about their parents at one point in time. Not about killing them, but the fact that they're bugging me and I'm sick of it. Yeah. I know my girls have. expressed that before because you know we get on them for this or that or whatever in the past why can't you just leave me alone stop bugging me right why can't you just do what I ask you to do you know you can just see that that kind of um conversation going back and forth and

everybody listening has either been the parent or the child right in that conversation now you would have been about Alfred's age in 19th. 77. So I'm assuming you guys, you were listening to the same music and probably going through some of the same things that he was. Yeah. On January 27th, 1978, Alfred murdered his entire family, excluding his sister Elizabeth, who was away from home at that time, Alfred came home from school and went upstairs because he was too nervous to tell his mom that he failed geometry. Alfred finished a book titled The Glory. Boys. The book ends with the execution of the hero by a gunshot to the head. Alfred took out his 22 rifle, which he received as a Christmas gift, and he started cleaning it. He went downstairs around 4 p.m. But left the gun on his bed. Yoshika was in the kitchen, preparing dinner. She asked Alfred how the end of his semester went. And he told his mom that he failed geometry. He later said that his mom told him,

why don't you try harder? That's a typical parent response. I think it is fairly typical. You need to try harder. You need to do better. If you just try a little bit harder, study more, you could get your grades up. Right. Is that bad to say?

No, it's called parenting. I think for most people it is. But what happened was this conversation triggered intense feelings of anger inside Alfred. he said, as quoted by the Boston Globe, I wasn't even going to say anything to her. When I did, she got really mad. She told me, I'm going to let your father handle this when he comes home. And again, very common back in the day. Oh, of course. Oh, you wait till your father gets home. That's right. You're going to get it when your father gets home or you're going to have to explain this one to him. Yes. Yes. That was very, very common. I always did it the other way. Oh, you wait till your mom hears a about this.

And you're going to be in big trouble. Alfred went back upstairs. And when he saw the gun on his bed, he decided that he was going to shoot his mother. And, you know, I'm just kind of picturing this scenario in my head. One that probably happens in households all around the world. Yeah. Every day. Little spat.

Or, you know, a parent's not happy with. the kids grades or, you know, what direction they're taking in life and they're talking to them about it. Yeah. Do kids want to hear it? No. But how many kids think, uh, I don't want to listen to this anymore. I'm going to go upstairs and get my gun and I'm going to start shooting people. Because that's going to solve it. Yeah. That's not a natural response. So, you know, I think as we go through this episode, we're going to have to try to figure out what caused Alfred to get to that point. Now, we mentioned bullying. He was bullied. So we have that. We do. But he didn't go back to school. No. And shoot bullies. He shot his parents. So we're just going to have to factor all of those things in.

Minutes later, Alfred walked up behind his mother and shot her with the 22 caliber rifle. Yoshika was shot in the chin. The bullet passed through her head and killed her. Alfred said his mother never even saw the gun or anything. He explained further for the Boston Globe. I remember shooting her, but it didn't seem real. I was surprised when the gun went off. Yeah, I understand what he's trying to say, but also you took the gun there. You made that decision to pull the trigger. Not really sure why you're too shocked. I don't know. Is it the difference between thinking that you're going to do something and then being a little bit shocked when it actually happens, maybe, if that makes sense? Probably. Now it's real. Oh, it's very real. Yeah. You just killed your mother. Dorina was in another room listening to

music. She heard the gunshot and entered the kitchen to see what had happened. Eagle Tribune quoted Alfred is saying she ran into the room and started screaming. Alfred chased her through the house and shot her as she ran outside. He later said he did this because he wanted to stop her from calling for help. Dorina was shot six times in the back, chest, and head. Alfred dragged his sister's body back into the house. I mean, this is so hard to picture. I mean, it's not hard to picture.

It's just hard to comprehend how a 15-year-old. old can do this and think this is the right thing to do. Yeah, you've got to think what shifted in his mind at that moment, you know? I mean, he killed his mom now. He sees his sister. He's worried. But I think it all starts with the very first act. Yeah.

Once he made the decision to kill his mother and he carried that out, did he feel as though he was locked in? And it was all or nothing at that point because he even, even said it, right? He didn't want his sister to run next door, you know, be able to call for help, anything like that. That's all that was going through his mind because he'd already done the first act of this terrible tragedy. And he thought, well, if I can kill her, I can keep this under cover. Yes. I have almost, I have to at this point. I don't know if that's exactly what he was thinking. That's two loved ones, though, at that moment. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Alfred said he can see.

considered ending his life, but didn't think he could do it. So he decided he would run away. And I thought this was an interesting statement. Now, I don't advocate for anyone ending their life. Of course not. But isn't it strange that he makes the statement, I thought about it, but didn't think I could do it when he thought about killing his mother and seemingly had no problem doing that and then turning around and killing his sister. So he's able to kill his mom and sister, but but shows not to end his life. So he's thinking about running away. Right. But Alfred decided that he was going to kill his father first. As Alfred was packing, he heard the garage door opening. He hid behind a car that was already in the garage with the gun ready. Alfred recalled his father's

reaction to seeing the gun, he said, no to me. When I raised the gun, I shot him and he ran at me. I shot him again. When I shot him a second time, he went through the door. Wilfred was shot six times, including three gunshots to the head. So we have three family members dead. Right. The two people who brought you into this world, raised you, gave you food and shelter and all that. And then one of your sisters with whom I'm sure, you know, he shared a lot of really good memories with. It's just hard to reconcile a 15-year-old being able to do that. It just is for me. And if you think about how he killed his family members, kind of hunting his dad down in the

garage, chasing after his sister, hunting her down, really, really cold. Yeah, it was almost like he was stalking his dad behind the car. And, you know, he did shoot. shoot at least his dad and his sister, you know, a number of times. Now, he has a 22 rifle, not the most powerful weapon, but he think about with his father shot six times, three gunshots to the head. Derina was also shot six times in the back, the chest and the head. Very brutal. After the shooting, Alfred ransacked his parents' bedroom and searched his father's pockets for money. He packed a suitcase full of clothing, ammo for the rifle,

his father's 30-30 rifle, and a bottle of whiskey. Bottle whiskey. Now, a 30-30 rifle, much more powerful than the 22. So not only does the, has this 15-year-old killed three of his family members, he now has two guns and a bottle of whiskey. And plenty of ammo. And plenty of ammo. He stole his dad's wallet and driver's license. pistol permit, $280 in cash, and stole his father's car, a green Plymouth Fury. Alfred wrote on the refrigerator, I wish to die, signed out. Now, neighbors didn't report hearing any gunshots, but neighbors Harry and Joyce Allison saw the family's Plymouth, quote, barreling out of the driveway, according to the Boston Globe.

A few minutes later, the sedan crashed into a, Snowbank. Minutes after that, they saw the family's brown Ford Pinto driving away. So he must have wreck the first one, switch cars, tried it again. But he's 15 years old. Probably doesn't know how to drive. If he does not very well. Yeah, I'm assuming at 15, he's not done a ton of driving. And I think the fact that, you know, he rams the Plymouth Fury right into a snowbank, probably backs that up. Not a good sign. Not a good sign.

At 8.30 p.m. Toppsfield police officer Robert Geary found the Plymouth in the snowbank. The motor was running and the transmission was left in reverse. But the doors were locked. The keys were still in the ignition and a snow shovel was outside the car. So sounds to me as though he tried to back it out of the snow bang. Right. Even tried to maybe do a little shoveling, but couldn't.

to make it work. Geary radio dispatch and learned the car was registered to Wilfred Brown. The dispatcher soon informed Gary that no one at the Brown home was answering the phone. So Geary drove over to the address and saw that the lights were on, but no one answered when he knocked. He didn't enter the house and had the car towed to the Toppsfield police station. And my assumption is that he didn't have enough probable cause to really, enter the house at that point.

Unless he saw something through the window. Yeah, something through the window or, you know, just the fact that they weren't answering is not enough. I don't think for you to enter somebody's house. Just before 8 p.m. that evening, an off-duty police officer from Saugus, Massachusetts, was driving through Topsfield in his personal vehicle when he saw someone driving erratically in a brown Ford Pinto. He flashed his light. and honked to try to get the driver to stop.

He reported what he saw just after 8 p.m. So again, we have a 15-year-old driving one of the worst cars ever made for Benta during probably winter conditions. Yeah, during bad conditions and, you know, and driving like most people who have never driven a car would do. Yeah. It's all over the place and he's erratic. at 8.10 p.m. Boxford Police Chief Douglas Warren was out driving with his family in his personal car that had a police radio. He heard the broadcast of the off-duty officer's report. Warren intercepted the Ford Pinto and radioed Boxford police officer David French, who was sitting in a police car at the Masconomit Regional High School. French unsuccessfully tried to pull the driver over. He and Chief Warren chased after the driver.

The car ran into two snow banks, then hit and broke a utility pole landing on the driver's side door. The driver was Alfred Brown. At first, he fought with officers, but he was calm once he was handcuffed. When asked for his license, he said he didn't have one because he was just 15. I'm just 15, man. I think if, you know, if you're these two guys, what do you think? Most likely that this is a kid who's, you know, taking his, you know, taking his, parents car without permission. He's out joyriding. He's not good at it. No. But you're probably not

thinking that he just murdered three members of his family. No, maybe you're thinking maybe he had something to drink. Yeah. And just kind of unruly that way. Yeah, because they did give him a breatherlizer test and Alfred agreed to take it. He was told that they would go to the Toppsfield police station for the test and that he could call his parents there. On the way to the station, Officer French asked Alfred why he was driving his dad's car. Alfred said he had to fight with his parents at home and stole it. Okay. Not great, but a heck of a lot better than admitting that you just killed your family.

As Alfred was waiting to take the breathalyzer test, he was handed a citation, charging him with operating under the influence, driving to endanger, speeding, and driving without a license. license. Okay, none of those are great, but they don't compare to murder charges. Officer French told Alfred he had to call his parents and tell them what happened. So he walked over to the phone, dialed a number, held the receiver to his year for five to ten seconds, and then sat back down. Several minutes later, another officer came up and told Alfred that he had to call his parents. So he did the exact same thing. It may be pretty easy to fake the officer. out pretending to make the call. Well, one thing's for sure.

He knows he's not going to end up talking to his parents if the number he dialed was actually his home phone number. We don't know that. It just said a number. Alfred then took a breathalyzer test. His blood alcohol content was less than 0.02%. So the driving under the influence charge was dropped, but he still had to face the other charges.

Topsfield police chief Harold Moore, now told Alfred. that he had to get in contact with his parents. And they weren't going to let him go until he spoke to them. That's going to be tough to do. Yeah. Yeah. The following quotes come from Commonwealth versus Brown. Alfred said, I can't contact them.

They're on the floor. Officer French asked, who was on the floor? Alfred said, my parents. French asked, what do you mean? Alfred said, I shot them. French asked, you shot them with what? To which Alfred answered a gun. When asked what kind of gun, he said he shot his parents with a 22 rifle.

French asked, are they dead? To which Alfred responded, yes, I think so. But that's going to change the vibe in the room. Well, very quickly. But I want to kind of, you know, go through this conversation. Not specifically each question and answer, but more like the, tone of it or the vibe that I get, it was very matter of fact. Right.

Sounding. Right. Just question, answer. Question, answer. You would just think that as a 15 year old, if you were admitting to the police that you had just killed three members of your family, the conversation would go a little differently. Meaning he would have been more upset.

You would think. Yeah. petrified about what's going to happen to him now that he's done this, at least from the way it was reported, it didn't seem as though that that was his mindset. No. He was handcuffed again and read his rights and officers were sent to the Brown home. An officer asked Alfred if he had brothers and sisters. He said, I have a sister.

She's on the porch. I shot her too. Can you imagine being the police officer? officer in that room asking these questions and hearing these answers from a 15 year old. No, I think it would be, you know, tough enough to sit across from a prative typical killer if there is such a thing. But, you know, somebody who kind of looks more like a killer, I guess is what I'm trying to get at. And they're, they're kind of laying all of this out for you. I think that would be hard to take in. But from a 15 year old, hearing these things,

things, you know, these guys got to be shocked. Once the police confirmed that Alfred was telling the truth, he was arrested on three counts of first-degree murder. Alfred's attorney arrived at the police station soon after, and he didn't speak to the police anymore after that. The police searched the Plymouth, and they found all the items Alfred took from the house. On January 28th, Alfred was ordered to be held without bail after he pleaded not guilty

to murder charges. He was held in the Department of Youth Services Isolation Unit at the Danvers State Hospital. It's probably a good place for him to be at this moment. Yeah, because we're going to talk about it. Right. What role does mental health play into this whole thing? Former Essex County ADA Phil Moran told the Boston Globe about a conversation he had with Alfred before his arraignment.

I said to him, this is strictly off the record, but why'd you do it? And he said, I was pissed. He also told me there was no difference shooting a tree. Wow, that's a shocking statement. No, it really is. I mean, anyone who's ever fired a gun at a tree at a paper target, that's one thing. But to compare that to not only shooting a human being, but your family members. Right. It is in a word. shocking. The police called Elizabeth and told her she needed to come home. She thought that her parents and sister had gotten into an accident. Police officers were waiting for her at the airport, but they wouldn't tell her what happened. When they got to the police station, she saw a newspaper on the counter. She grabbed it and she started reading it before someone could take it away from her.

At first, she was frantic with worry about Alfred, but then she was told that it was him. He had to be. He had, killed their family. And how is somebody like that handled that information, right? She just lost her mom, dad, sister, and the killer is her brother. So essentially, you've lost your entire family. Absolutely. In one fell swoop, assuming he's going to go away. But how do you deal with that?

I don't know. It would be, you know, tough enough to lose your family and let's say a car accident. That would be devastating. But to find out that your little brother, murdered your mom, dad, and your sister, I don't know how you process it. I don't know how you live with it. I don't know how you get through it.

And to think if she was home, most likely she would have been a victim too. Yeah. Yeah. So you have to have that thought running through your mind as well. On January 30th, Alfred was committed to the McLean Psychiatric Hospital for 20 days of examination. In March 1978, Alfred was found competent. to stand trial. However, in June of that year, Alfred was committed to the Meninger Clinic in Topeka, Kansas for further observation. On September 14th, 1978, Alfred Brown, who was at that point,

now 16 years old, was indicted on three counts of murder. His trial was set to begin on February 5th, 1979. And he would be tried as an adult. And that's a difference maker as a 15 year old. Yeah. But I want to go back to the psychiatric examination. So 20 days worth. And he was found competent to stand trial. But then something happened. And there really was no reporting, you know, in-depth reporting around it. But something happened to make someone think he needed to be seen for further observation. I mean, it was horrific crime committed by a youth? A yute. A youth. Did you say two yutes? Okay. Okay, Pesci. No, I mean, I get it. He was 15 years old. But to me, it's the things that kind of he said afterwards. Yeah. That really kind of made me think

something's going on here. It's one thing to kill your parents. And that's, terrific. Sure. But it was almost as if, or I think it was as if he had no remorse or felt no remorse about it, that comment, it was no different than shooting a tree. I mean, whoever made the decision, I think it was a good decision before you move forward with any type of trial. Well, and I think mental health was, you know, viewed a little differently in the 70s. I think we've run across that before, before the trial started. A judge denied a, defense motion to suppress Alfred's statements to a police officer the night he was arrested and the following morning. Well, of course, they were pretty damaging. Yeah. I mean, he

essentially confessed and gave some details. According to the daily item, Alfred told an officer, I used the 22 caliber rifle because it was quiet. But he said could have blown them all the way quicker with the 30-30 Marlin rifle. But it was, but it was a little bit. But it was, you know, it was a little bit of would make a lot of noise. So that shows. To me, some forethought. Yeah.

Some planning. Planning. And I think you could see why the defense would try to want statements like that suppressed because if you're on the jury and you hear that, you know, that doesn't sound as though this is some, you know, person who is not sure what they're doing or snapped or, you know, not in their right mind because they're weighing out which gun to use which gun to use and

and really kind of going through the decision making process the officer said in court that alfred told him i did it because i was mad and to this i would say i think this is fairly true i mean what has he said so far i was mad he told somebody else he was pissed yeah and that they were bugging him. He was just, he was tired of that being parents to him. Yeah. Yeah. That's, what it seems like. On February 9th, the jury viewed the family home where the murders took place. The court began hearing evidence on February 13th. Arresting officer David French testified that Alfred showed little emotion when he admitted to killing his family. The other police officers who were involved in the arrest also testified at trial. Alfred's attorney, Richard

Riley tried to get them to say that his actions and statements were not those of a normal and rational American youth and that the shootings were the result of a maniac on a murderous rampage according to the daily item. So why would they want that? Why would he want to try to get them to say that? Because I think that would be more along the lines of, you know, he wasn't in his right mind or whatever legal term you want to use because I think if you're the defense team you're trying to show the jury that you know this was a 15 year old kid who was experiencing some severe mental health issues at the time he did this to show at least what diminished responsibility or something along those lines not first degree murder as an adult

which is where the prosecution is going. Yeah, that's the way they were going. But all of the officers testified that Alfred was calm at the police station and that he showed no remorse or guilt. Sergeant Arthur Hurr Jr. testified that Alfred was always emotionalist when they talked. He transported Alfred to Topeka, Kansas for observation. He and Alfred talked about different subjects such as guns, planes, in different places. He testified that Alfred was an intelligent boy. After the prosecution finished their case, the defense filed a motion for directed verdicts of not guilty.

Richard Riley argued that the prosecution didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Alfred was sane at the time of the murders. So I think we've kind of hinted at it, but this really shows you what the defense was going after. I mean, it is a good defense if they can make the jury believe. it. Well, what is your other defense tactic going to be? I don't think you're going down the path of he didn't commit the shootings because the evidence and all of that and his statements are pretty well stacked against you. I mean, I think the defense would love for all those statements not to be entered into the court. Yeah, that's why they tried to get them suppressed. Yeah, and maybe they would have a better chance. The defense called on Dr. Allen's.

Fleming, a psychiatrist who spoke with Alfred twice. According to Commonwealth v. Brown, Alfred said to Dr. Fleming, he didn't see anything wrong with murder or anything like that. He said he killed his mother because that would stop her from bugging me. Alfred told her that his parents bugged him about school, sleeping late, and playing music too loudly. His mother was also angry with him for failing geometry. You know, this is a statement. that so many kids can make about their parents on them about sleeping late and not doing good in school and playing music too loudly. But this kid responded to it unbelievably.

Yeah, but what I really want to break down is his statement to the doctor that he didn't see anything wrong with murder or anything like that. You know, what does the jury make of this? You know, do they start to maybe believe that, okay, here's a kid who didn't know right from wrong, didn't know that what he was doing was wrong? Now, you got to weigh that statement against some of the things we've already talked about, right? The picking out of the gun because one would be quieter than the other. Does that mean that he didn't know right from wrong? It shows some planning.

It does. But is that the same thing? I don't know. Could you plan something and still not know? I think that it was wrong. I agree with you. Yeah. I think you could.

So these are the things I like to go through because, you know, how tough is it for a jury to weigh all of these things and figure out what's real, what's true, what's not? It's just a tough job. But to hear the kids say that, right? I didn't think there was anything wrong with murder. This is no different than shooting a tree. Yeah. Dr. Fleming read a statement from her reported trial. When Alfred was asked directly whether he regretted having done it, he said he guessed so since I got stuck in this place.

Asked whether there was any act he would consider immoral or wrong. The defendant said, yes, if I'd sat around and watched them die, if it wasn't quick, it would be more wrong. But I made sure they were dead. If they're dead, they can't bug you about your grades. All right. We got to unpack this statement because the first part of it is, does he regret it? And, you know, this is what I see from a lot of killers, adult killers. They really only regret the fact that they got caught. Yeah, exactly. And that they're sitting in prison. And that's kind of what he said. I guess so because I got stuck in this plate. Right.

And if you didn't get stuck in here, you'd be okay with it? I mean, I don't know how else to take it. The second part of it is in a way a little bit, maybe like a hunter might talk about an animal or think about taking the life of an animal that it's okay. I'm going to eat this animal, but I don't want them to suffer. I need to make sure that, you know, I kill them quickly. Yeah. I don't hunt, so I don't know.

But I think a lot of hunters probably think that way. But it's the last part again. If they're dead, they can't bug you about your great. He's saying that their lives as important as him not being bugged about is great. Yes. It's all very, you know, fascinating stuff to break down and to kind of walk through. Dr. Fleming testified that although Alfred was competent to stand trial, he was seriously mentally ill and suffered from paranoid schizophrenia.

Alfred may have had substantial capacity to appreciate the criminality of his conduct, but she said he did not have the capacity at the time of the shootings to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law. His mental illness deprived him of the power, to make the right choices governing his behavior. And, you know, the mental illness testimony. It comes up a lot in the cases we do. And it's always very fascinating to me, knows right from wrong, doesn't know right from wrong, competent to stand trial, but still seriously mentally ill. Those are two different things, right? You can be competent to stand trial, sure, but then be found not guilty by reason of insanity back then or whatever it was. Dr. David Swenson testified as a rebuttal witness.

He had interviewed Alfred at least eight times. Dr. Swenson found that Alfred did not experience hallucinations and was, quote, in contact with reality. According to Commonwealth v. Brown, Swenson diagnosed Alfred with latent schizophrenia, but did not find sufficient evidence of mental disease or defect to take away criminal responsibility. So is it shocking that you have differing opinions between prosecution witnesses and defense witnesses on whether or not Alfred was criminally responsible? Doesn't shock me at all. We see it in almost every case.

In his closing argument, ADA John Doherty called the shooting atrocious, according to the daily item. He told the jury, we're not dealing with a boy, but with a 16-year-old man. Richard Riley argued that Alfred was seriously mentally ill, echoing the words of their expert witness. He urged the jury to consider what possessed this boy to kill when he had no passionate hatred for his parents. Riley said that Alfred had a colossal overreaction to his parents, disciplining him. He asked the jury, were these the acts of a rational person, or were they acts of a depraved, sick, and demented mind? Good question. Tough question. Yeah. You've got opposing testimony. I doubt that, you know, most members of the jury are mental health experts.

Right. So, you know, they got to wade through all of this stuff and, you know, make a decision. That's why I keep saying all the time. Just how tough is. visit for some of these juries. Especially back then, there wasn't a lot of knowledge like there is today with that subject. About mental health? Yeah, I would say a lot less knowledge on the part of lay people about mental health, for sure, in the 1970s than then there, there is today. On February 20th, In 1979, Alfred Brown was found guilty of three counts of first-degree murder. He received three concurrent life sentences. Alfred filed a motion for a new trial in March 1979, which was denied in January,

1981. He appealed his convictions and the denial of his motion for a retrial in August of that year. In December, the judgment about the retrial and the convictions were affirmed. A 1982 appeal was all. also denied. So he's not having good luck, right? In the appellate courts, his convictions were confirmed, his motions for a retrial were denied. After his conviction, Alfred told his surviving sister Elizabeth that he did them a favor by killing their parents and sister. How do you say that? Well, I think the first question is, do you really believe it? And I have a feeling that he really did believe that. Now, I think the second question is, if you're Elizabeth, how do you take that? Right. Because obviously, you don't have that same feeling. You don't think that that was a favor at all. You're now on your own. You're by yourself. Yeah, you made my life miserable. And what if I was home that night would I have been murdered too?

I would say you'd have to think yes. For the same reason that he killed his other sister, she's not going to scream and run out of the house and want to go tell somebody. I'm sure she is and he's going to think the same thing about her. According to the Eagle Tribune, Elizabeth later learned that Alfred had alleged hitless. She stopped visiting him in 1983 and hasn't spoken to him since. She was so afraid of her brother that she changed her name and had her address impounded.

So that's a little scary. You know, if you think about we know what he did. Right. Now there's a thought that he had lists of other individuals who he was thinking about killing. And maybe some of those were people that had bullied him. I've got a little picture of Steve Bishimi. Yeah. from Billy Madison in my mind. And maybe that's where he was headed with the other gun in the car.

Yeah, we don't know. We don't know, but maybe. Maybe that was his plan. And it did say alleged. So we don't know if those are real or not. But there's no doubt she was very, very afraid of him. In 2012 and 2017, Alfred tried to reach out to his sister, but she didn't respond. In December 2013, the Massachusetts Supreme.

judicial court ruled that life sentences without parole for juveniles violated the state constitution. Juveniles who were sentenced to mandatory life without parole were eligible for a hearing after serving 15 years. We've heard something like this before. Yeah, I think a lot of different states have ruled similarly at different times. And I do think life with no parole is very harsh when you're 15 years old or 15 at the time you committed your crime, but the crime was so heinous that I'm really kind of waffling back and forth on it. I don't know exactly how I feel about it. Alfred had a parole hearing on April 26, 2018. He did earn a college degree in 1989, but prosecutors argued that he only started to participate in rehabilitation programs. When he learned, he could get parole. Okay. I don't really blame him

for that. If you have a mandatory life sentence with no parole, is there an incentive for you to go to group therapy and rehabilitation therapy? I don't think so. I'm never getting out. So I go through all that. Yeah. But when you learn that there is parole, it does make sense to do it because at a parole hearing, they're going to want to hear that, you know, you attended all these different things. You're rehabilitated, you went through it all. But I see what the prosecutor's trying to do. All, he only did it once he learned that he could get out. But I don't kind of blame the guy for that because I think most people would do the same thing in his position. Alfred had worked some jobs in prison, but he was removed from the employment list because he was considered an escape risk.

According to the Boston Globe, he spent most of his time in prison, lifting weights, playing cards, and reading. Probably the standard. I thought that was, yeah. I thought that was pretty typical. Now, I do know that a lot of inmates work a lot of hours. So Alfred said at his parole hearing, per the Eagle Tribune, I'm a different person now. He admitted responsibility for the crimes, but blamed social isolation and true crime stories

for teaching him that killing was the only way to resolve conflict. True crime stories back then, huh? Yeah. I don't know what true crime stories, maybe stories about mobsters or I'm not, I'm not really sure. Yeah. Social isolation. I think that goes back to the bullying and the fact that he didn't seem to fit in no

matter where he was. Yeah. If he was in US or in Japan. Yeah. It didn't matter. Elizabeth wrote to the parole board about the contrast. She saw in Alfred before and after the murders. Her letter was quoted by the Eagle Tribune.

She wrote, the brother I knew was quiet and shot. And yet, we never had a problem talking to each other. I recall how we used to talk about him wanting to be a doctor when he was around eight years old and that when he grew up, he was going to buy me a house. The person sitting in front of me was someone different. He wanted everyone to call him either Al or Alfred. The family called him Freddie. Freddie was more like the brother I knew. Alfred was this very cold. individual and his eyes would grow darker when he was talking to me. So she's not painting a really great picture of Alfred. No. As compared to the kid she knew as Freddie. They called Freddie. One member of the parole board noted that Alfred still thought killing was a way to solve problems. For example, in 2000, he demanded an apology from an inmate while armed with an ice pick. He also allegedly made hit lists in custody, which he denied. Alfred told the board that he had the names and addresses of former prosecutor, psychiatrists, a police chief, and lawyers because he was going to appeal. Yeah, I don't think so. That's a tough one. Yeah. That sounds like it could be a hit list of all the people

you thought were involved in putting you in prison. On March 27, 2019, Alfred was denied parole. The Massachusetts parole board said in their decision. The board is of the opinion that Alfred Brown has not demonstrated a level of rehabilitative progress that would make his release compatible with the welfare of society. Alfred was eligible for review five years after the date of the hearing. So I don't know. I'm not surprised Gibbs, are you, that he was denied parole? No. I mean, when your sister comes in and says the things that she said about you, It said that you had these hit lists, you threatened somebody with an ice pick. I don't think you're ready to go out and mingle.

Mingle. Yeah, I could see where they came to their conclusion that he was kind of not rehabilitated and still thinking that murder is the way to solve his problems. According to an online life sentence unit hearing calendar posted by the Massachusetts parole board, an individual named Alfred Brown had a review hearing on April 27, 2023, the parole board has a life sentence record of decisions page organized by a year.

But Alfred's name is not listed in the 2023 section, which means that either a decision has not been made yet or has not been made public yet. It's possible that one day Alfred Brown will be released from prison. And I think there's a really good possibility of it. Yeah. Even if he's denied this year, he's going to come up again in five years. You know, is he going to figure out what to say in these parole hearings? Is he going to, you know, really dive into this rehabilitative work?

We don't know the answers to any of that. Is he going to stop threatening people with ice picks? Who know? If he wants out bad enough. Yeah. But will he really be rehabilitated? And that's the question that I have a lot of times. You know, I often say that the jury has a pretty tough job.

I think some of these parole boards have a really tough job as well because don't they have to be constantly getting snowed? I think so. I mean, who's not going to go in there and say what they think the parole board wants to hear, except for Red from Shawshank Redemption? Exactly. And he actually got out. You did. But now a lot of times I'm I'm sure they can wade through the BS and all that. So, you know, it's either he's eventually going to BS his way out of there or he's really going to do all the work and be rehabilitated.

But he spent more time in prison than he ever did outside, right? Yeah, because he was only 15 years old. Yeah. When he committed these murders. And I don't know how much they. factor that in. You know, a 15-year-old who commits three murders versus a 30-year-old. Does the parole board factor that in? You would think they'd have to somehow, to some degree. Now, whether it is a really big percentage, I don't know that. I just wonder how somebody that only understands how it is

to be a kid in the real world. Once paroled is put out into that world as an adult that needs to function as an adult and has no experience in that setting. It would be really tough for him. But I think it's, it's tough for a lot of inmates to spend, you know, 20, 30 years in prison. You think about how much the world changes in that amount of time. People go in. There's no cell phones. There's no computers.

There's no internet. Yeah. Whatever it is. And then they come out and it's like Captain America being pulled out of the ice. Sure. and has to, you know, figure out what's going on in the world. One of the tough things about this case for me was that, you know, Alfred never really offered a detailed explanation for why he murdered his family.

You've heard what he did say, right? They were bugging me about my grades. Yeah. Said I was playing my music too loud. Things that we were all told as kids. Unless you were the perfect child, at some point, you played your music. too loud. Absolutely. And you didn't do as well in one subject as your parents would have liked for you to have done. And they got on you a little bit about it. I wonder how he likes

being told to go to bed at a certain time, eat your meal at a certain time in prison. I don't know how many people like that. I can tell you right now, I don't want to find out whether I like it or not because I know I won't like it. The other thing is with this case is that you know, experts disagree on the extent to which his mental illness influenced his actions. And that's not abnormal. We see that in so many cases. Even the mental health expert for the prosecution said he had mental illness. Yeah. Or a mental illness. But he just didn't believe that it made him not responsible for the crime. Now, obviously, we know. We know. We know. We know, what the jury decide.

We do. But I think these types of cases are always tough. And, you know, some people may lean one way, factoring in age and, and the fact that there was talk of mental illness. And then some people are going to lean another way. Yeah. And say, look at the crime. And the jury's decision and, you know, you can't really blame people for, for whichever

direction. direction they choose to take. But that's it for our episode on Alfred Brown. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear them. Hey, Mike and Debbie. My name is Simone.

I actually live in the United Kingdom, but I just finished listening to the Audrey Marie Hilly episode and wanted to let you know that I am actually from Birmingham, Alabama. In Greenboat, Alabama is actually not a real place from the Forrest Gump movie. However, Tuscala, Alabama. is. And fun fact, I am the University of Alabama alumni, just as for SCUB is. It's crazy to be halfway across the world and hear an episode about places that you used to live originally and from Atlanta, but lived in Alabama for 10 years before I moved to England. So it's interesting

to hear about Anniston, Blue Mountain, and Birmingham, and all those places as well. Anyway, love the show. This is my first voicemail I left, calling you all the way from the United Kingdom just right outside of London. Keep up the great work. Love your podcast. Been listening for years. Listen to it every single. I can't wait for it to come out on Monday mornings when I'm getting ready to go to work. I wake up at four. But keep up what you're doing. Great podcast. Love you guys. Bye. All right. Love the voicemail. Absolutely. Yeah. So many people have emailed about the Greenbow, Alabama. And it's funny because I actually remembered it after we were done taping. Right. But I can never remember.

not never but a lot of times I can't remember it while we're riffing right but I'll remember it afterwards but it's too late yeah I just knew it wasn't Tuscaloosa no I knew that's where Alabama was but I knew that's not where her his home was she gets up at 4 a.m. Yeah right about the time I'm rolling to bed yeah yeah hi Mike and Gibby this is Michelle calling from Burlington Connecticut again I was just listening to the episode on Thomas sleeping and Mike I wanted to send some love and hugs to you and your wife with your second daughter going off to college. I know what that's like. My husband and I have luckily been doing that for a couple years now.

This will be our third year. I just wanted to let you know it does get easier. You will get used to it and you won't realize how used to what you are until they come back for winter and summer breaks and then you'll be looking forward to them going again. But keep up the great work guys. Always love listening to you. Keep your own time ticking. Bye.

Yeah. So I got a lot of voicemails and emails about that, especially on Patreon. on a lot of people offering their support or, you know, what they went through. And, you know, this is the second child to go to college. So we went through it once before. But it was different because we still had the one at home. You did. And now it's like they're both gone.

And the feeling is, it seems like it's intensified. Now, I'm only a weekend. And it does get easier, like she said, because I experienced that before. But I'm still ready to move in. I know you are. And you've offered it three or four times. which I found odd. I like all the free meals and the...

And then free rent. And free rent too. Yeah. I like all that. Oh, you crack me up. But now I'm so happy for my girls. They're doing great.

And one day, they'll really be on their own. Right now, they're just quasi on their own, playing with, you know, mom and dad's money a little bit. A little bit.

A little bit. But, so thanks for the voicemails. We had, no mailbag this week. So buddy, that's it. That is it? That's everything.

That's everything. Okay. It's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and givey, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.