True Crime All The Time - Alton Coleman and Debra Brown

Episode Date: November 28, 2016

In 1984, Alton Coleman and Debra Brown went on a deadly killing spree that spanned 6 states. In a short time span of 2 months this deadly duo committed 8 murders, 7 rapes, and 3 kidnappings. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone. I'd like to welcome you to the very first episode of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm your host, Mike Ferguson. So very, very excited to finally get out this first episode. This podcast has been a long time in the making. When I first started down this path, I really had no idea how much work was involved in starting a podcast. But when I made the decision that I wanted to do a podcast, there was really only one subject. And that was true crime. I've been fascinated with true crime, murders, serial killers for as long as I can remember. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever you listen, to make sure that you get each new episode. Rate, review, leave comments about the show. Also, you can visit the podcast website at www. Truecrime All The Time.com. And while you're there, please click through our show.

our Amazon banner for all of your Amazon shopping. One thing I want to say up front is that this podcast is not meant for young years, so parental guidance is advised. The subject matter that the podcast covers is of a violent nature. We're talking about some of the most disturbed individuals and violent cases in the history of crime. So at this time, I'd like to introduce my guest host for this episode, Mike Gibson. Mike is a colleague who also has an interest in true crime.

Since we're both Mike's, I'll call him Gibby, just so no one gets confused. So Gibby, what's going on? Hey, how you doing, Mike? I'm good, I'm good, man. I'm just, like I said, I'm super excited. I think you in particular know how long I've been waiting to get this episode and podcast started. Yeah, it's a big, big, always been a big passion of yours. So, you know, I'm excited.

I'm excited for you to finally bring this, you know, forward. Yeah, so how was your Thanksgiving? You know, it was good, always busy, because I know you're a true crime and you love all that stuff. So my gift to you for Thanksgiving is I have a little Thanksgiving true crime for you. On, I think it was November 26, 2009 in South Florida, you're like this, Mike. There was a guy named Paul Merhitt. I think his name was Murr Higgy. And he had Thanksgiving meal with 16 family members and friends.

And they were just sitting around the table, conversing and joking. And after dinner, he decided to whip out a handgun. He executed four relatives, including his cousin-in-law, his twin sister, one who was pregnant, and also his cousin, which was six years old. and afterward he reportedly said that he's been waiting 20 years to do this he fled the scene but they caught him and eventually they cut a pretty deal and he got seven consecutive life sentences so holy shit so you know a lot of people have some stress during thanksgiving you know coming back to see the family and all that so uh this is this is an extreme version of thanksgiving gone wrong yeah you know what's i i'm not sure i've i've heard of that I'm or if I did I don't remember so a couple of things right 16 people that's a big ass Thanksgiving dinner first of all right there's a lot of turkey and then you know what's going on with this guy that

he's been waiting 20 years to plan or execute this well execute these people right exactly that's crazy I'll have to look it up to yeah to look at that that family dynamic there you know what what went wrong so early in his life that he felt he needed to do that. But I'm guessing that's for a later podcast of yours. Yeah, maybe we'll do that on a later one. But so to stay on that subject for a while, killing 16 people, that's a big deal. Waiting 20 years to kill 16 people, I think I'm almost more shocked at that. Yeah, that's just what a bizarre thing to say, right?

Right. I mean, waiting 20 years to execute. cute the folks that he did you know family members at that you know young ones in the mix as well so the hatred he must have had well those yeah so the most a lot of those people weren't even alive when 20 years before that so exactly but i'm sure his mental state you know how he was mentally sit there and laugh and joke and actually the article even talks about how they did some you know sung some sing-alongs together before evening before yeah before yeah before what a messed up guy yeah well you know i talked in in in my introduction episode about the mental aspect and i think for sure that

that's one of the main things that just really gets me about you know some of these people how they can do what they do what drives them to do what they do you know you and i have known each other for a while and I just can't imagine knowing anyone that has that kind of thoughts or wiring or what we're going to get into it I mean that's what this podcast is going to be about I guess people that are you know do the types of things that that you and I and most people that are listening to this podcast I mean they just never would they couldn't dream of doing no yeah I mean you're you never suspect certain people would do what they do. So interesting. Yeah, no, it's a good story. You ready to get into this first episode? Absolutely. All right, let's do it. So the topic or the

case that we're going to be talking about tonight, I've chosen a man and woman serial killer duo, Alton Coleman and Deborah Brown. Modern day Bonnie and Gly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they really were. I mean, And you and I had talked about this, you know, we've been researching this for a little while. We knew we were going to do this one. One of the main reasons why I suggested it is because of the ties to our hometown of Dayton, Ohio. I can remember, uh, shit. I mean, you know, maybe being 10 or 11 years old and this was big time news in Dayton, Ohio. and I don't know why I can remember that.

I'm not saying it jump started my fascination with true crime. It could have, I don't know. But I definitely remember it. Yeah, and I do too. And I think, you know, you got to go back to that time frame. You didn't have all the media channels and, you know, the social media and all the Internet. So, I mean, you have basically three TV channels of news. So when the big, big news broke, you know, you typically got to.

I got to hear it and there wasn't another channel that the kids were on to protect them from that type of story. You mean no sponge bob? No sponge bob back then. No sponge bob. No, Captain Kangaroo. Yeah, there was Captain Kangaroo. Mr. Rogers. Mr. Rogers, yeah.

So, you know, just to kind of set the scene a little bit, you know, this was a deadly pair. They went on a killing spree that spanned six states and included eight. murders, seven rapes, three kidnappings. So, I mean, this was, this was a bad duo for sure. And I think that, not that all of that's not crazy, but, you know, one of the crazy things about this is all of this occurred in just a small two-month period of time. So, you know, I think that adds something, you know, to it. Absolutely. One, the other thing that I, that I really found, fascinating about this is that both Alton Coleman and Deborah Brown were African American. Deborah Brown, obviously, an African American female. Those two facts in itself, I think,

helped make this case stand out. I mean, it's well known. Everybody listening that's into true crime knows that the majority of serial killers, they're white males. I mean, it's just, a known fact. You've got, you know, a small number of famous women. You've got the Eileen Warnos and, you know, you've got some others. But I think this combination, African-American male and African-American female really stands out in the annals of true crime. I'm not sure if I've seen this before. So, yeah, I wanted to point that out that that I do think it helps it stand out. Well, let's start out talking about their childhood. You know, I think most people would agree that when you're looking at serial killers,

you're really going back to childhood to see some of the triggers and some of the things that may have caused them to ultimately, you know, end up doing what they do. So Alton Coleman is born on November 6, 1955 in Waukegon, Illinois. His mother worked three jobs. And at some point, and Mike, I think you know a little bit more about this maybe, but I know at some point he lived with his 73-year-old grandmother in Waukegan. Right. So here's what I find interesting is that I think his thought processes were molded, at an early age because, you know, his mom, Mary Bates, you know, and he never knew who his father was, right?

You know, his mom was a drug user, a gambler, a prostitute, but you got to go back a little bit and, you know, look at this and remember that Mary Bates, you know, she, she was at 14, pregnant with her first child. She was sent off to a state girl school, and then shortly thereafter she was sent. Eventually she ended up at a psych hospital because she was found guilty of infecting a man with syphilis on purpose. And then it was around 1950 that she left her first child behind and moved two, three states out to Oklahoma and had two more children. with her first husband decided four years later to leave those kids behind and came back to Waikagan where she lived in the they call it the market street area and it's kind of like a blue collar predominantly you know black city of lake michigan between the chicago and Milwaukee area and she lived in that fly they call it the five block residential area back in

that day was just a bunch of wooden shacks around the railroad tracks where a lot of the garbage dumps were and junkyards happened to be. And that was the neighborhood that Alton Coleman was born into. So not to cut you off, but was at that point where she moved out to Oklahoma? I mean, is that why he's living with his 73-year-old grandmother? No, no, this was before. I mean, so she comes back after being with her husband. she comes back and you know through her prostitution she gets pregnant with Alton has Alton throws

Alton in the trash can and her mom makes her take Alton out of the trash can and at that point her mom Alma you know she kind of takes over raising Alton on and off because you know the Mary she's living in a kind of like a prostitution house and you know know, there he is, you know, around that day and day out, seeing the drug, drug activity, seeing sex acts happening right in front of them. To the point, Mike, you know, and I don't want to jump ahead on you here, but I found it interesting that during that time that he was staying at that, the prostitution house, he actually stole one of the John's watch and I believe wallet at the age of five.

And at that point, it was the first time he was arrested for theft at the age of five. So basically what you're saying is Alton Coleman was Fubbard from the get-go. Absolutely. Even his grandma would call him some vulgar nicknames because this is a kid that, you know, clearly from the way he was raised, he had anxiety. So he soiled himself nightly. And so his grandma, you know, when he was raised. out with the little kids in the neighborhood would talk about how he lets his pants all the time and she had a nickname for him and uh and i guess he did this all the way until the age of 12 or 13

so the kids teased them the grandma teased them everybody that was close to him teased them so you know i think this also sets that mindset that he ends up that wiring in his head right not to mention that even his grandma you know both his mom and his grandma both abused him whipped them you know with extension cords. So I think all this builds into how his, you know, his mental status comes about. Yeah.

Well, you know, like we, obviously no excuse for what he ends up doing. And we'll get in, we'll get into the crimes and stuff like that. But, you know, it does speak to upbringing, you know,

what you're exposed to at a young age. And it does seem like a lot of these people that go on to commit, these heinous crimes, you know, they have similar backgrounds, whether it's neglect or being beaten, you know, often. It's just things like that that. Now, on the flip side, let's point out, I'm sure there was a lot of other people in that neighborhood that probably had maybe not quite as bad, but pretty similar upbringings.

And they didn't go out and kill eight people and rate. You know. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. It's just interesting. No, it is. When you think about it and think about, you know, at 11 years old, he was gambling in the streets, you know, according to his brother Donnie, right? He's out there gambling in the alleys, winning the money to buy his drugs and his alcohol at 11. Oh, so you weren't doing that?

Yeah, you know, maybe you, I don't know. That's how I had to, that's how I had to earn my money at 11. Well, you know, you're from a different. neighborhood than I. Yeah. So, you know. All right. So, I mean, we're giving a little, little background into, into his psyche and upbringing.

So Coleman drops out of school in middle school, normally not a good sign, right? No. He's well known to the Illinois law enforcement community. He was charged with sex crimes six different times between 1973 and 1983. Two of the cases were dismissed. with Coleman pleading guilty to lesser charges. So obviously the guy is, you know, he has a sex problem. You know, he's a sexual criminal for sure at this point in time.

And a couple of those he was acquitted of. But that brings us to another part of his childhood. And I'm not sure when he was diagnosed with some of these things. I don't know. Probably not as a kid. it could have even been later on after he was in the penal system. But, I mean, I just want to read off some of these things that I read that Coleman was diagnosed with. So personality disorder, antisocial, narcissistic, and obsessive features with additional diagnoses,

including epileptic spasms, that's easy for you to say, psychosis and borderline personality disorder. That sounds like a lot to me. That's a whole lot, you know. But yet the courts decided to parole him in 1976, right? So, and I'm sure that this was, they've probably discovered some of this during the two years he was in prison. you know, through their own studies of him why he was in there. But for whatever reason, I mean, 1976, he's paroled. Somehow, Mike, you know, in 1980, he was able to hold, you know, two jobs,

the only jobs he ever had in his life. But it was a very short period of time. And, you know, from what you just said, it's kind of scary that in one job, he was a nurse's aide for two months. And on another job, he was the recreation superiors. supervisor at the VA hospital in North Chicago. Two places you would think somebody would those issues listed probably shouldn't have been, but, you know.

It was the 70s, I guess. Yeah, I mean, that's all you can say. Right. So, you know, again, he's been in jail for sex crimes, you know, not to jump ahead to talking about his future crimes, but, you know, he was scheduled to, to go on trial for the rape of a 14-year-old girl at the time that he flees and and begins this killing spree that we're going to that we're going to talk about so so let's talk about debor brown for a

little bit debor brown is one of was one of actually is she's still alive but one of 11 children listed as borderline intellectually disabled suffered head trauma as a child Which, there again, if you read about a lot of serial killers, read about a lot of true crime, head trauma as a child, you know, Gacy had it. I mean, you can just tick off the number of big-time serial killers that were purported to have suffered head trauma as a child. It's a big factor. It appears to be a big factor. So are you, I mean, what are they saying here, Mike? Are they saying that even though she was, I can't remember how old she was, was she 21 or something like that.

But at that age, are they saying even though she was 21, her mental status was, what, a 10-year-old, a 12-year-old? Yeah. What I read, it didn't say. So I guess you could, you know, exactly what intellectually disabled is. I don't know. I think it's fair to say that she probably had a fairly low IQ. She was also diagnosed with, you know, some different types of personality disorders. So, you know, both of them together had that.

But, you know, what's interesting about Brown, you know, I mentioned the head trauma, being an indicator of future bad behavior. But Deborah Brown wasn't, isn't the one that instigated, you know, this killing. spree. You know, we're going to talk about it as we get into it. She went along and actually participated in some of it, but on her own, I don't think she would have gone out and been a lone serial killer or committed the heinous acts that ended up happening had it not been for Alton Coleman. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. No way to say for sure, but I mean, that's my guess on it. So Brown was engaged to him.

man at the time that she met Coleman, and this was in 1983. And she ends up leaving her family and moving in with Coleman, not that long after meeting him, it appears. We talked about her probably not instigating this whole killing spree on her own, but it clearly says that she was a willing participant. But the thing that I found interesting is in all the reading, it stated that Brown basically had no history of violence. She had no record, any indication that she'd had trouble with the law until she met Alton Coleman. That kind of goes back to me thinking that he's the catalyst for this whole thing.

And her having a low IQ probably didn't help in the fact that she was even. either duped or coerced or talked into going along with his plans. Well, what do you think? Should we get into talking about some of the crimes? I think we should. All right. Well, I've got a quick sound bite that I'm going to play, and then we will get into the timeline.

The pattern seems to be that while Coleman and accompanied by Brown perpetrates acts of violence against almost anyone he comes in contact with, woman seems to have a special way of luring children into his death trap with candy or Frankfurters or some similar inducement which would appeal to very young children he will go into neighborhoods in order to get whatever items he needs for survival this is independent of his effort to obtain young black girls for his deviant purposes.

Coleman is thought to be traveling with Deborah Brown, a former lover. But whether she is a willing accomplice or a captive is not clear. It is a master slave type relationship. She's been described as being willing to do anything that Alton Coleman tells her to do. So there, you know, you hear that soundbite. A couple of interesting things that jump out at me. the last part there, I think, where the detective is saying that they believe it to definitely be a master slave relationship, in his words, master slave, where their understanding is that, you know, Deborah Brown's willing to do whatever Alton Coleman wants her to do without question. The other thing, and, you know, again, we'll make light of things sometimes even talking about these terrible crimes.

but you hear this police officer, police commissioner, whoever it is, I don't know his name, but he's talking about how Alton Coleman is luring these victims and he says candy

and then he says Frankfurters. And I'm thinking, you know, so candy, we were all told, you know, don't take candy from strangers. Nobody ever said don't take Frankfurters from strangers.

What's that about? That must be a, that must be a uh uh chicago kind of a thing yeah it was definitely um like i said i don't know who it was but i'm sure it was up up illinois or uh it could have even been in wisconsin uh we we all would have ran if somebody wanted us to come up and grab grab a frankfurter frankfur from somebody you know we yeah i don't know what i don't know what kid is lured by a frankfurter but they obviously they had some uh unless he was was just talking out of his ass, he had some knowledge that that was a tactic.

Yeah. Well, they did have, you know, at least from what I recall, they had one surviving. I'm sure you're going to cover that, but I know there was one surviving kid. You're talking about Annie, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll definitely get the Annie pretty quickly into the crimes.

But did you read somewhere where Annie said she was given a Frankfurter? No. But, yeah, I'm guessing that maybe that's where the detective got it from. You know, I don't know where else he got it from since most of the other victims, you know, didn't survive. Well, there should, hopefully there's no kids listening to this podcast, but I guess parents, you're going to have to update your, your vernacular to add, don't take candy from strangers. Don't take Frankfurters from strangers either, because apparently that's a thing. No more Frankfielder. No more.

I'm not going to do it. So we begin May 29th. The killing spree begins with the murder of nine-year-old Venita Wheat, who Coleman kidnaps from Wisconsin, and he brings to Illinois after befriending Verneeda's mother. Some of the stuff that I read, and Mike, I know you have a lot too. Juanita, who is Vernita's mother, apparently allowed Verneeda to accompany Coleman to his apartment to pick up a stereo system and they never returned.

There were, there was a customer at a local club that ultimately testified that a black male who I, I think he identified as Alton Coleman and Verneeda, who keep in mind is nine years old, right? Yeah, that just makes me, that just makes me sick to my stomach. Oh, it does. It does. I mean, we're going to some of this shit that we're going to be talking about is is um i mean it's it's nasty when you really think about it yeah but so they they enter a club at approximately 1130 at night what kind of nine-year-old is allowed to enter a club i mean again we're talking this is early 80s now right this is 84 but still i just i don't i don't get that at all i guess the the man uses the telephone and then a few minutes later a cab arrives to pick them both up.

So on June 19th, so that's, you know, that's what approximately two, three weeks almost after that, the body of Renita Wheat was discovered in the bathroom of an abandoned building in Waikiga in Illinois. She had been raped and strangled. You know, as we go through these crimes, we're going to be saying that a lot. This is the heinous part of Alton Coleman. Number one, his victim of choice was young African-American females. And when I say young, I mean very young.

And number two, he, you know, he was a sexual deviant. So he raped and normally strangled. Yeah, and this is, you know, Benita, you know, here she is. in this abandoned building, you know, and you find out that it was actually only like four blocks from Coleman's grandma's apartment where he used to stay, you know, so, I mean, here he is. He's not only is he attacking young, innocent children, you know, he's doing it right now.

You know, he's doing it in his own backyard, right? I mean, he's so careless that he's okay, just stepping out of his own backyard and, finding these victims. Yeah, I mean, that's, it's scary. On June 18th, then we get into Tamika Turks. So Tamika Turks is seven years old. She is being accompanied by her nine-year-old aunt, Annie, and they are abducted in Gary, Indiana.

Both girls are sexually assaulted by both Alton and Deborah Brown. Tamika is strangled to death. Annie's left for dead, but somehow manages to survive. And then the very next day on June 19th, Tamika's body is found. And that just happens to be the same exact day that Vanita Wheat's body was found. So again, we said this in the beginning. All of this takes place in a very, very short amount of time. you're going to see that June 19th was a

was a very busy day they just had discovered two bodies already go ahead I know you want to talk about Annie here in a minute yeah I did I do I'll let you finish your point but I then I wanted just to you know just quickly give you an interesting you know story about Annie yeah so

I mentioned June 19th also on June 19th and I'm going to circle back around to to Mika and Annie, but on June 19th, the couple is believed to have abducted Donna Williams, who was 25, her buddy was discovered on July 11th.

So she too had been strangled and raped. I don't know if they ultimately proved that it was Coleman and Brown, but I just found that very strange that, you know, you've got that one day. You know, a lot happened on that one day. But I want to go back to Mika and Annie for a little bit before you tell some of the interesting facts that you uncovered. And this is going to be hard for some people to hear, but I think it's necessary to convey the gravity of what happened.

apparently, and like I said, Brown was definitely involved. So Tamika was crying. Brown was holding her nose and mouth. And Coleman is stomping on her chest. Again, we're talking about a seven-year-old girl. Couldn't be any more innocent. They carried Tamika short distance away. Annie's forced to perform some sex acts on both Brown and Coleman.

Coleman rapes her, Brown and Coleman together, choke her until she's unconscious. So again, we already said Annie lives. When she wakes up, both Coleman and Brown are gone. And Tamika is found dead in the bushes very close to where Annie wakes up. So Tamika is strangled with an elastic strip of bed sheet. Later on, it will be found out the same exact fact. fabric was found in the apartment that Coleman and Brown shared together. But I know you're getting ready to talk about Annie, so I have to say this.

And this was probably the, you know, I almost got a little sick to my stomach when I saw this one, but, you know, they cut Annie so bad, so deep that her intestines were protruding into her vagina. I mean, they, they decimated this girl and somehow she survived. It's just sickening, man. It is sickening. It is sickening. And the fact that she survived is amazing.

But, you know, as we find out later in life, you know, that trauma, what that did to her, it just, it messed the rest of her life up. She was, she was never given an opportunity to be. Like most young girls, she never was given the opportunity to be, you know, a young lady. She had it bad after that. And, you know, so the interesting part of this is that, you know, it was around 2012. She and her two sons, Kenneth Coleman, no relation, obviously, but in Ronte, Terrell, and, of course, Annie. At that time, she was 38, they attempted murder and robbery and carjacking up in that same area. So, you know, here she is.

She's had all this terrible trauma happen to her, sets her life on a bad course thereafter. And, you know, now she is serving prison time because of, I think, what happened to her in her childhood, set her just on a bad course. I can only think that that had to be the reason for her to go down this path. Yeah, I mean, when you told me, I had not, I didn't find that in my research. And when you told me about that, I was amazed. But I think it does. It goes full circle back to what we talked about as far as childhood upbringing.

Those formative years make you. who you ultimately are going to be, if this never had, if she never encounters Alton Coleman and Deborah Brown is not, you know, brutally raped by them and cut up and

left for dead, is her life completely different? Yeah. You would have to think, probably yes. I would think so. And it just shows you, I mean,

this, this attempted murder robbery carjacking you know this all took place um you know her you know her one son shot her boyfriend the other son used a baseball bat and you know she and she also contributed and it was over something so minor as who used the last of the salad dressing so that's crazy that that would all happen over just a little bit of salad dressing but i think it in some former fashion has to go back to, you know, what happened to her in her childhood. We'd be crazy to think that that didn't play a factor in it somehow.

Yeah, I mean, definitely, you know, her mental, you know, status, that's the right word. You know, she grew up in the same neighborhood. You know, it's a rough neighborhood. You know, here she is nine years old. She's got this, you know, terrible scar. Everybody knows that she was sexually assaulted. And you know how, you know, growing up, kids are brutal, probably not showing her any compassion. So not only does she have to deal with the physical scars, she's got all the mental scars from what actually happened to her.

But then she's, I'm sure, you know, in that rough neighborhood, these kids are just, you know, not being kind. And I think that just sets her, this course for her to just destroy the life that she should have had, that what she would have had, this never happened to her. So I think that's sad. Yeah, it is sad. I think you can make, not to say that she wouldn't, couldn't have gone on to do,

you know, something bad on her own, but to say that this didn't play a factor, that would be nuts, right? Yeah, I mean, it definitely stacked the deck against her. Right. So let's,

let's get on to the next crime. So Coleman and Brown, they next turn up in Michigan. This is July, or I'm sorry, June 28th. They break into a couple's home, fiscously attack them with a lead pipe, although somehow both of them survive. Coleman and Browns steal their money and car. And this is another thing that you see, right? This is basically their M.O.

Throughout this whole two-month spree is the rape, strangulation, breaking into people's houses, stealing their money, stealing their car to get to their next destination. You see that in almost every one of these. So at this point, they're headed to Ohio. In Ohio, they befriend a woman named Virginia Temple, who has several children, including a nine-year-old named Rochelle.

Ultimately, all their bodies are discovered inside a crawl space in Temple's home. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said all. It's Virginia and Rochelle are discovered, and both were strangled. So now we get to July 11th, still in 1984. A 15-year-old Tawny Story leaves her home in Cincinnati to attend a computer class at a junior high school. eight days later her bound and partially decomposed body will be discovered in an abandoned building

what's really interesting about this one is what is discovered underneath the body of tani's story and it's a bracelet belonging to virginia temple so you know all of these things where you've got you know they've got some of Alton's fingerprints. They're putting some of these things together. You know, obviously, the guy is not a master criminal. He's not trying to, at least in my opinion, I don't know what you think, Mike, but it doesn't seem like he's trying to really be that, not to leave any clues or, you know.

You know, mentally, I mean, he's just all over the place, right? So, you know, he does the terrible crime. with Virginia Temple, right? And then, you know, he leaves that scene. And somehow, you know, later that day, they arrived to Dayton. And they visit the home of the Reverend Miller Gay and his wife, Catherine. And they, you know, this is our hometown, Mike. You know, it's kind of scary.

But they stay with Mr. and Mrs. Gay for, um, Was it two days, Mike? Because I know they went to the religious service with them on July 9th. And then the next day, that's when, you know, Mr. Gay dropped off Coleman and Brown in downtown Cincinnati, which put them in the area on July 12th when they, you know, eventually ran into Tony, Tony or it's a Tani or Tony Tony story? I don't know. I'm not sure. It's spelled strangely so. But I'm glad you said that because in the beginning I say the reason why we picked this is because it has ties to Dayton, Ohio.

Now they come back to Dayton later and we'll talk about that. But, you know, I'm glad you brought that up because I had left that out. But it just, it just intrigues me that, you know, here, they're so violent, violent, violent. and then they get to this reverence house. They don't show any, any violent, you know, behavior towards him or his wife. And they're staying with them for a couple days. It just makes you wonder, you know, why. Again, you're in the mind of a killer.

Why wasn't his buttons pushed that day? So. Well, because at this point, now they they could have met other people right that we didn't read about but they've killed basically everybody that they've come into contact with absolutely and so they stay two days with with with these people in Dayton Ohio and they don't harm them at all and actually like you said actually go to service with them yeah and then it's what how many days later that they that they kill

Tony? It's like three days later. And then, you know, the couple in Dayton's going to come back into the story here, you know, towards the end. But now we're under July 13th. Like you said,

Coleman and Brown were driven to Cincinnati. So they're in Cincinnati. They're into town of Norwood. They enter the home of Harry and Marlene Walters under the first. the premise that they want to purchase a camper that I guess the Walters were trying to sell, they kill Marlene and they hit Harry with a wooden candlestick,

but Harry survives. And he later testifies at trial, and this is what he testifies to, that Coleman and Brown inquired about the camping trailer. Upon inviting Coleman and Brown into his home, he sat on the couch discussing the trailer with them Coleman picks up a wooden candlestick looks at it, admires it hits Harry on the back of the head

knocking him unconscious so obviously that's all Harry really new at that point but when it happened a few hours later Sherry Walters who I which is their daughter

comes home from work and at the bottom of the basement steps, she finds her father Harry, you know, clinging to life. Her mother is dead. Both of them have ligatures around their throats and electrical cords tied around their feet. Her mother's hands were bound behind her back and her father's hands were handcuffed behind his back.

Her mother's head is covered with a bloody sheet. So she comes home from work and this is what she finds. They were trying to kill them both. They just didn't kill Harry. And so, you know, Mike, I hear that and it just, you wonder, you know, why, why did they cover her face? Was that Deborah? You know, because she couldn't handle seeing somebody because from what I understand, he, he blundioned her head like up to 25 times with, with like, a pair of locking pliers, you know. Well, you know it had to be them, right?

It couldn't be Harry because he's. Yeah, he's unconscious. Right. And then the other part of that story is I find where it is that they say parts of her skull and brain were missing. Where did they go? Was that because they hit her so many times that they parts of it. They couldn't find it at a crime scene? Yeah, they couldn't find it.

I really don't know. But, you know, to me, that would be, I guess I see what you're saying where Deborah, would cover her because she feels bad. But then we go back to some of the earlier stories and she didn't feel bad enough to stop the rape and murder of a seven-year-old girl and actually participated. So, you know, I don't know. It could have been. But it would seem strange that she would all of a sudden, you know, grow a conscience and be upset, not upset,

but feel bad about this one, bad enough to feel like she had to cover this woman's head. I don't know. Strange. Yeah. I mean, it was definitely brutal. I mean,

besides the locking pliers and the candlestick and the soda bottle that they broke over the head and the magazine rack that they mentioned that was bloodstained in the living room. So, I mean, I can not even imagine what, went down that day in that house that, you know, this husband had a watch. I'm sure he probably watched some of this or heard the screams and couldn't do anything about it.

And for just an innocent woman to be lunging like that. Bad wiring, man. Yeah, I mean, you know, he just kept on going and didn't think about stopping. It's just, it's just sickening. Yeah, well, I've got a soundbite from the Cincinnati News. I'm going to play. Inside the home, officials from the Hamilton County Coroner's Office began looking for what they call trace evidence. Fingerprints, footprints, things that might be missing from the home.

Anything that might connect suspect Alton Coleman to the brutal murder of Marlene Walters and the attack on her husband, Harry. Here at the Norwood Police Department, detectives met with FBI officials who came into Cincinnati just last night. It didn't take them long to determine that Alton Coleman might be the man they were looking for. As a matter of fact, he was their only suspect. What they do say is that Coleman is a survivor, a man who uses people to get what he wants. He has a way of getting next to people. He can talk his way into the home. He meets people on the street and can discuss religion.

He can discuss politics. He's very forward, very well-spoken, very calm, and very deadly. Authorities believe what Coleman wanted and needed. was a getaway car. Perhaps it wasn't a coincidence when police arrived at the scene of the murder yesterday. The victim's car was gone, stolen.

At this time, police have no idea whether Coleman is still in the area or if he's left town. But a nationwide bulletin has been put out on the vehicle he's believed to be driving. So at this point, the news is saying they know it's Coleman.

They basically said that the detectives are saying that Coleman's are only suspect. he's now the subject of a nationwide manhunt. So from here, Coleman and Brown go to Kentucky. And, you know, Cincinnati is right across the river from Kentucky, so not very far to go. But they kidnap a college professor, steal his car, lock him in the trunk,

and they drive back to Dayton, Ohio, and they abandon the vehicle. but they leave this guy alive. They don't kill him. Which again, just shows you how unstable mentally they are, right? Because prior to that, they just beat the death, you know,

a husband and the wife and almost the husband for basically the same thing. They just wanted their vehicle and some money and jewelry and they fled. But for whatever reason, this guy, they just won his car,

but they keep him alive, throw him in the trunk. and decide just leave him in the trunk for somebody to find him alive. Yeah. There's no rhyme or reason. Right. I think it's a good question. Why kill Marlene?

They didn't kill Harry. Did they think they, did, you know, Coleman think he had killed Harry? Or did he just didn't care whether he killed him or not? Because obviously they don't kill this Carmichael guy. Then it comes back to, like what you said, their only goal

in both of those is to maybe get a little money and get a car to get where they want to go. So these are very different from the sexual crimes that we talked about earlier with the young girls.

So from here, Coleman and Brown, like I said, they derive back to date in Ohio. They encounter who, Mike, who they encounter. Yeah, they go back to the same Reverend, you know, they go back to Reverend and Mrs. Gay

back in Dayton and he recognized that, you know, this is this is the subject of a huge nationwide, you know, manhunt. Right, because like we talked about in the very beginning, this was number one lead story

probably on all three stations. So no doubt, Gay, who had met Coleman, what, a week ago, or I don't know how many days we are now. I'm sure as soon as he saw the news, he knew that he had kept the serial killer pair in his home. So when he meets him again, he definitely knows. But again, they don't kill him.

They don't even harm him. And the Reverend actually says to Coleman, he says something like, why, why you want to do us like this? and according to Reverend Gay, Coleman responds, I'm not going to kill you, but we generally kill, then we go. So they typically kill where they go,

but this time they're not going to kill you. He's telling them that. Coleman and Brown at that point, they took their car, and they headed back to Evanston, Illinois. Yep. So they got, you know, again, still their car. But it was this day that Coleman was added to the

FBI's 10 most wanted list, which is a big deal, right? Still is today. You make the FBI's 10 most wanted list. You're a bad, you're a bad seat for sure. So you started, you said it. They drive to Evanston, Illinois in the stolen, the Reverend stolen car, but on their way, for some reason, it's not made clear why in the reading that, in the research that I did. But they made. a detour to Indianapolis and they kill a 75 year old

by the name of Eugene Scott and they steal his car and dump the vehicle dumped the reverence vehicle and logically that's probably the reason why again they're on every new station they definitely would have been on in Indiana as well

Illinois all the adjoining states from Dayton to Indianapolis, 100, 120 miles. Yeah, what, two hours? Yeah, two hours. Back of that day, yeah, I mean, without trying to grab the attention of police by speeding,

it probably took him two hours. So I guess that, you know, he felt that was his best time to dump that car because I'm sure he realized the Reverend as soon as he left, made that call to the state police. So that makes sense why they did that. Again, you know, it is another thing where

you know, this time they kill a 75 year old guy over a car. Before that, they left the Reverend and his wife alone. So it just goes to show you that, you know, again, how unstable he was and is and why he is a serial killer. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. So, I mean, they do finally make it to Evanston. I guess this is where we get to the part where they're arrested because they are arrested in Evanston.

but the part that I thought was strange it was someone from Coleman's old neighborhood in Waukegan that spotted them drove to a gas station and notified the police I didn't look to see and I don't know where Evanston is in relation to Waukegan I don't know how far apart they are

yeah and I don't know either Mike but it's interesting I don't think it's that far for the fact that somebody in his own neighborhood happened to be, you know, in that same town that could recognize him at a red light and have the whereabouts to pull over and, you know, call the police department and alert them to this. Yeah, it wasn't strange to me that somebody recognized him because, you know, we talked about, he's on the news, but I just thought it, I did think it was strange that it was somebody

from his old neighborhood when he didn't, he wasn't back in his old neighborhood, I guess, is the part I thought was a little strange. But like I said, this guy drives to a gas station, notifies the police. They put a, you know, put out a APB.

That's my police lingo for you. They find them in a park. They approach Coleman and the detectives see Brown walking away. They question Coleman. He's got no identification. It actually said that he denied he was Alton Coleman. and I think they already knew who he was.

And while this interview's taking place, two other officers stopped Brown as she tried to get out of the park that they were in. When they search her, they find a gun in her purse. What I thought was, so they're both taken into custody. They didn't put up a fight, and they take them to the police department. And they did identify both of them by fingerprints.

So, you know, obviously they know they have them at this point. but the part that I thought was I don't know I guess I got a little chuckle about it so they strip search Coleman at the Evanston police station they find a steak knife in his socks

which when I read that I chuckled a little bit because I thought it seems like if they knew this guy was Alton Coleman that they would have really you know made sure

before they even got him in the car that he wasn't carrying any weapons, but maybe not. You know, I'm not a police officer, so I don't know that. Yeah, I think I would have done that, right? You know, I would at least, you know, have him to take his shoes off and take off his two pair of socks on each foot that he had on. Yeah. Yeah, that's what it said.

It was the knife was in between the two pairs of socks that he was wearing. I mean, it's a, it's July in Illinois, you know, it's hot. Why would someone have two pair of socks on? that should have been like a red flag to me, but I'm not a cop. Yeah, yeah, me neither. So they're arrested. They've got six states basically involved in trying to figure out how they're going to prosecute Coleman and Brown. Because they'd committed crimes, murder, rape, all different types of crimes within these six states.

Michigan's ruled out because they didn't have the death. penalty. Eventually they decide on Ohio, because Ohio does have the death penalty, that that was their best shot was to try them in Ohio. And from here, it's pretty routine. They're tried. They're convicted. But they're only convicted of the rape and murder of Tawny Story in Cincinnati and Marlene Walters and Norwood. But they're not convicted. And I'm not convicted. And I'm I'm not sure. Maybe you read and maybe you know, but they were not convicted for the murder of Virginia Temple

and Rochelle Temple, those two that were found in their crawl space of their home. They lived in Toledo, which is obviously in Ohio. I didn't know, Mike, if you read anything about why that was not part of the indictment. You know, and I didn't, Mike, and I can only, you know, speculate that they didn't have, the solid evidence that they needed to tie them to that and they so they didn't want to cloud the case with that when they had a solid case with you know the Cincinnati murder and also the Norwood murder yeah that that does make sense I mean it ultimately was a good strategy

because they were you know both Coleman and Brown were sentenced to death that would have been what 85 so that the appeals of process begins which as we know contains take a very long time. Coleman's case ultimately goes to the U.S. Supreme Court more than once between 85 and 2002. I think his argument was that the death sentence was unconstitutional, but I think that fell on deaf ears. It's interesting. Did you get to see what he had for his last meal? I did. I did. I saw that. Actually, it sounded pretty good. Filet mignon with mushroom gravy, biscuits and gravy, fried chicken, french fries, broccoli with cheese, I'd strike that, collard greens, I'd strike that, not into that, onion rings, cornbread, a salad, sweet potato pie, butter, precann, ice cream, and cherry cola. Yeah.

I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. Take out the broccoli with cheese. and the collard greens and I'm in. Yeah, I just thought, you know, Calais mignon. They got, they convicted him in Ohio. They both of them, Coleman and Brown, they both got, uh, the death penalty.

Coleman, uh, actually Coleman was, had two death penalty sentences in Ohio, which is strange. I don't know how you can kill somebody more than once, but I guess in case one gets thrown out, maybe. Yeah, I think that's, That's why. So he had, what, two in Ohio, and he had a couple others in the neighboring states. Yeah, Illinois, Indiana, and Brown had hers in Ohio, and then also one in Indiana.

In 91, though, Brown's death sentence is commuted to life in prison by the governor of Ohio just before he leaves office. And even though she did receive that other death penalty sentence in Indiana, she's currently serving your prison sentence in Ohio, and Indiana has not done anything about pursuing her execution. So I don't know. I assume they have the ability possibly if they wanted to try to bring her to Indiana and put her on death row if they wanted to. I would think there's a possibility there, but I'm guessing that at this point, the,

you know, the Attorney General over there is just, it's not of a, interest him at this point. Maybe he feels comfortable with the fact that she's got life in prison with no possibility of parole ever. So she'll die, you know, in prison. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that was telling that that I read about Brown is, is it said that she continues to show a complete lack of remorse for her crimes. You know, going back to your theory, I'm not sure she put that cheat over Marlene's face out of anything other than maybe the fact that she didn't want to see that. Yeah, that or, you know, again, go back to the very beginning, you know, her mental capacity of

instead of a 21-year-old, you know, more like a 12-year-old. So sometimes 12-year-olds, you know, they don't know when they, I don't want to say they don't know, but they don't understand what they've done wrong. Well, it would be nice. It would be nice to know what her IQ was and what that correlates to in years, like you're saying 12. Is it 12? Is it 14? Is it, yeah, it would be nice to know that.

I never saw or read what that was, but it'd be interesting. So I do want to play one final clip about Alton Coleman's execution. Execution. He is continuing to be very calm and very compliant, cooperating in every way, not creating any problems whatsoever over at the death house. Coleman spent his last hours visiting with spiritual advisors and his attorneys until the 845 cutoff time. At which time he will be offered a shower and then we will prepare him for the execution process. The execution process began just before 10.

A doctor gave Coleman a shot to sedate him. A second shot to slow his heart rate. He was then transferred from a holding cell 17 steps to the death chamber. Mr. Coleman came in wearing a non-denominational. We're told prayer shawl. When he walked in, he seemed quite confident. It happened quite fast. And he seemed to kind of adjust his shaw and then did not need any kind of escorting onto the gurney.

Coleman made a last statement, but he didn't use his own words. Instead, he quoted the 23rd Psalms. He repeated, the Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want and continued with that. And then it seemed like as Chess... heaved, he took a couple quick breaths, maybe probably about eight or nine, and then that's kind of when he just stopped. It was no big last breath. The execution process for inmate Alton Coleman has been completed.

The official time of death, 10.13. So Gibby, that's it. That's the story of Alton Coleman and Deborah Brown. There was a retired FBI agent named John Douglas, and he was FBI profiler. And he threw an interesting fact out there that he said that, you know, part of these crimes were slightly racially motivated. And he cites evidence that Coleman, in the middle of a vicious sexual assault, he would go to practically an incoherent tirade about how blacks were forcing him to rape or murder other blacks. And then Coleman and Brown had also left a racist slogan with lipstick at the scene of the rape or murder of Tani. story, which that was their only non-African-American victim. So it is just an interesting, you know,

fact, you know, back back at that time from where Alton grew up. And, you know, as you mentioned, how he selected his victims back, back, even back then. So I just wanted to add that. No, I'm glad you did. And I want to, you know, take this opportunity to, to thank you, Mike, for coming on, being a guest host for our first episode. It was a pleasure. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed it, Mike, anytime. All right.

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