True Crime All The Time - Alvin and Judith Neelley

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Alvin and Judith Neelley were a young married couple who went on a violent crime spree in the fall of 1982 that resulted in the deaths of two victims, one of whom was just thirteen years old. A teenager herself, Judith Neelley would become the youngest woman sentenced to death in the United States. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Alvin and Judith Neelley. Their crimes were horrific, and after they were caught, they gave very different accounts of what happened and each other's involvement. Did Alvin have complete control over Judith to the point where she would kill for him? Or, was she a violent predator as the prosecution claimed?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 465 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Awesome. You know, we are getting close to the, the holiday season. Yeah. And it's probably a good time to let everybody know we're taking next weekend off, taking the whole week of Christmas off. And then we'll be back on the third of January. Yeah. So.

Looking forward to it. Yeah. It's always nice to have that week off around Christmas to spend with family. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Carol Hand. Hey, Carol. Gammy. What's going on, Gammy?

Poppy Gumpy. Oh, Poppy Gumpy. Audrey G. Hey, Audrey. Jenna Gibson. What's going on, Jenna Gibbs? Amy Bridges. Well, thanks.

Bridges. Shake and bake 420. Ooh, got some 420 going on. J.C. What's happening, J.C.? Louise Duffy. Hey, Duffy. Denise Jenkins. Well, thanks, Denise. Micah K.T.

What's up, KT? And last but not least, John McWaters. Thanks, McWattas. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Addison Batances. Well, thanks, Patances. Yeah, so, you know, appreciate the new support, the continued support.

We talked on Patreon Gibbs about my power ball dreams. Yes. I've had some strange ones lately now that it's over a billion dollars, but we'll see. Might happen. You never know. I hope it happens. You buy a ticket. You got a chance. That's my, that's my theory. Got to have the ticket to play. You do. So we have an episode out, a new one on true crime all the time unsolved. We're talking about the Decker girls. And, you know, It starts off with Travis Decker described as an active father with three daughters. Everything seemed pretty normal until, you know, he picked the girls up for a scheduled visitation and then didn't return. And then everything kind of, you know, starts from there.

And we get into all the details. But it's a good episode. Make sure you check that one out. Absolutely. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We're talking about Alvin.

and Judith Neely. Alvin and Judith Neely were a young married couple who went on a violent crime spree in the fall of 1982 that resulted in the deaths of two victims, one of whom was just 13 years old. I think one of the very interesting aspects of this case is Judith Neely was a teenager herself. And so, you know, the dynamics of that, how it plays into everything, fast, And although investigators didn't realize it at the time, the first link in their case began in September 1982. One night a man named Ken Dooley answered a call from a woman claiming to know his wife and asking for directions to his home in Rome, Georgia. Ken gave her directions, but his wife claimed not to know the person on the other line. And two didn't think much of it.

until the night of September 10th. A young woman called asking for Ken while he was away. She called again later that night. When Ken picked up the phone, he heard an angry male voice telling him he was going to pay. And then later that night, four shots were fired into his home. Two of them went inside his study.

No one inside was hurt. Ken saw a car speeding off and called police. He didn't know if the show. shots were random or targeted, nor who would want to harm him. But I mean, you'd have to admit it's a scary situation. Sure it is. It'd be so bizarre too, just to be sitting there doing whatever you're doing in your home, right? The next thing you know, you got bullets being shot at your house. Yeah. And on top of that, these couple of really strange phone calls, one which was no doubt threatening. on the night of September 11th, a homemade Molotov cocktail was thrown at a home belonging to Linda Adair.

A boy in the neighborhood saw a brown car with cream stripes speeding off with a man and a woman inside. He described the woman as having long reddish hair. Linda's husband reported that they had received several phone calls from a young woman prior to this. When Linda came to the phone to speak to the woman, the line went dead. police suspected that Linda's husband, an arson investigator, was the target. And I can understand that, right? Police have to at least come up with something to work with. Yeah.

theories, thoughts. Okay. A Molotov cocktail. Somebody's angry about maybe an arson investigation conclusion made by this guy. Maybe. Possibility. The phone rang while the police were at the house. Linda answered and a woman told her she and Kenneth Dooling were both going to die that night.

I don't know what happens Gibbs when you get that type of phone call. I think it would scare you, give you great concern. Well, it is also 1982, right? So the technology is a little limited in I think what can be discerned about the phone call. Yeah. if it's not being traced right at the, you know, that exact moment. The female caller would not give her name, but she claimed she was sexually abused at the Youth Development Center,

a facility for troubled adolescent girls in Rome, Georgia. Both Ken and Linda worked there. The call was automatically recorded. When Linda listened to it again, she realized the voice was similar to the woman who called her earlier. that night, but she couldn't identify her. Officers interviewed staff at the YDC, trying to determine if the abuse allegation was true.

But eventually, the investigation was put on the back burner due to a lack of leads and the fact that no one was harmed. That's a scary situation, both of these. Yeah, I mean, if you're performing a responsibility as part of your job, and maybe someone takes it the wrong way. way or assumes you're doing this or maybe they were actually doing something wrong. Yeah. Or just didn't like the outcome of a decision. Yeah. Now they are hunting you down. You're going to sleep with one eye open for sure. On September 25th, 1982, two girls were approached

on the western side of Rome by a young woman who wanted to know their names and where they live. She tried to pressure the girls to get in her car and ride around with her. Both of the girls managed to avoid her. And I think the other thing that has to jump out at you is, you know, you have a number of scenarios here that seem odd to say the very least that involve a woman. Yeah. Some red flags going off. That same day, 13-year-old Lisa Ann Milliken went to the River Bend Mall. in Rome with five other girls from the Ethel Harpsholm for neglected girls in Cedar Town.

Lisa and the other girls were instructed to meet at a specific spot within one hour, but Lisa never showed up. No one recalled seeing a struggle. Several days passed with no sign of Lisa. However, police received three anonymous calls from a woman directing them to Alabama's Little River Canyon, about 35 miles away from Rome. The Rome police took the first call. They looked into the tip but didn't find anything. Officers in Alabama took the next two calls. A woman also called a Rome radio station,

claiming the police were covering up a murder. Committed by a female juvenile officer, the caller named Lisa Ann Milliken as the victim. We got some things going on here. Yeah, a lot of stuff. But again, at the heart of it all, right, is a woman, a female. There's no doubt about it. Everybody says it.

The caller was a female. After this call, police made a more concerted effort to search the area where the caller directed them. On September 30th, 1982, police found the body of Lisa Ann Milliken on the floor of Little River Canyon in Fort Payne, Alabama. As investigators got closer, they could see a bullet hole in Lisa's back, which meant, you know, obviously she didn't fall. She had been thrown from about 80 feet above. That's a pretty healthy fall.

Yeah, I think in a lot of cases, a fall from 80 feet is going to kill you. Now, she also had a bullet hole in her back, so that might have been the cause of her death. Her body had landed partially draped over a tree trunk, a pair of genes hung from a branch. The autopsy showed that Lisa had been raped and injected with a substance that boiled the fat under her skin. Oh, that's something I haven't heard about before. Yeah, I don't know that I have either. There are a lot of substances that someone could be injected with, many of which, no one should ever be injected with.

And I'm sure they can cause all kinds of different reactions. Up and two, including death. Yeah. Sounds painful. Yeah, I think anytime you're talking about something boiling under your skin, it had to have been painful. Three plastic syringes were found near the body, and the lab determined they contain components of household cleaners,

such as liquid drain it. Additionally, the genes at the crime scene had blood on them. But it was determined that the genes were not leases. Investigators reviewed the anonymous phone calls from the tipster, and some agreed that the same woman made all four calls. The thing she said indicated she was familiar with the juvenile justice system. And it was said that Lisa had no known enemies, so her connection with the caller was a mystery.

Police interviewed other girls at the Ethel Harps Tom. Lisa's former neighbors, her father, who allegedly molested her, and her mother, whose boyfriend was recently out of prison. No one was a super strong suspect, but police would soon get a break in the case. All right,

maybe not super strong suspects, but you got some potential suspects here. I think so. You know, if you have a father who's allegedly molested, his daughter who then, you know, ends up dead, the mother's boyfriend just got out of prison. I mean, obviously, those are people you're going to have to look at. At the very least, you're going to have to rule them out.

On October 3rd, 1982, cemetery worker John Hancock and his fiancee, 23-year-old Janice Kaye Chapman, accepted an invitation to go riding around with a young woman they didn't know. She was driving a brown dodge. She told them that she was lonely and wanted company. John later explained that as a Christian, he felt obligated to do what he could for her. While they were driving, the woman showed them her CB radio and spoke to someone on the other end called the Knight Rider. The Knight Rider. Yeah.

And I think you and I have talked about CB radios before. Sure. You know, prior to cell phones in the late 80s, when I first started to drive. My friends and I all got CB radios in our cars because it was like the easiest way to keep in touch while you were in the car. Breaker 1-9, good buddy. Yep.

Now, I don't know what my handle was. I can't remember. Yeah, you do. I know yours was king of the singlets, but... Now, John and Janice also had CB handles and were familiar with how the radios worked. When John saw the weakness of the frequency the woman was using to chat with Knight Rider,

he realized that Night Rider was closer than where he said he was. He was communicating with the woman, whose handle was Lady Sundown in a way that John couldn't decode. But he tried to relax and just kind of go along with the ride. To John's surprise, the woman took them outside town. after she stopped the car, a man pulled up alongside them in a red granada. He had two small children with him. And John got into the car with the man while the children went with the woman.

John introduced himself and Janice. The man called Knight Rider said he wanted to find some alcohol. The two cars drove to a closed bar in Alabama. Then to another spot miles away. I mean, I think you just have to take. a minute and kind of put yourself in the position of these two people. All right. You don't know this woman, first of all. John even said it. He felt an obligation to kind of help her out because she said she was lonely. She wanted some company. Yeah. You hear this kind of strange CB talk that you can't

decode. The next thing you know, there's somebody pulling up and they're swapping drivers. they're like, hey, these little kids are going with us and you guys are coming with me and that would just be bizarre. It would be. I have to imagine there's a point there where you're thinking, this doesn't seem right, but what do you do? Yeah. And there is a point, sadly, in a lot of these cases where, you know, a decision could be made but isn't.

Now, we don't know what would have happened if they would have decided to get out of the car and make a run for it. We don't know. The man called Knight Rider acted like he was looking for a bootlegor to supply them with alcohol. John no longer knew where they were. He had lost his sense of direction. But investigators later placed them in Somerville, Georgia. John got out of the car to relieve himself and was surprised when Lady Sundown pointed a gun at him. and ordered him into the woods, she walked him down a narrow path, and he heard the man yell at her to

get it over with. She told John not to worry about his girlfriend. The man yelled at her again, and the woman shot John in the back. He felt the impact in his right shoulder and fell to the ground. The woman didn't pause to make sure she had killed him. John lay there for some time. After he heard the cars drive off and he was certain he was alone. He ran to the road to get help. He managed to flag down a truck driver who took him to the hospital where a nurse called the police. Right. Just an absolutely scary situation. For sure. I mean, I think any time to be shot, that's not going to be a great night. Now, there are different places in your body where you can be shot that are better than others, right? And the shoulder. Can you survive that? Yeah, you can. Yeah. As opposed to being shot in, you know,

much more vital places of the body. But it's going to hurt like, you know what. So I can only imagine how tough it was for him. And he's kind of playing dead, it sounds like, and waiting to hear them leave so that they don't come back and finish him all. Think how nerve-wracking. that would be, right? You're trying to, like, hope that they don't come back. Am I laying still enough? Should I smear some of that blood coming out of me on my face or something to make it look like it's worse than it actually is?

But at the same time, I think he has to be worried about Janus, right? Sure. Because they've taken Janus. Now, police initially suspected John was involved in a drug deal gone bad because John was claiming a woman shot him, and he was. He seemed to put up no resistance. He also didn't seem very concerned about Janus or the fact that he had been shocked. And, you know, maybe some of that is due to being in shock.

I have no idea. But it was an unusual story. And police were skeptical because John willingly got into the car with a stranger. However, there had been multiple reports over the past few days of people being accosted by a woman, driving around in a brown. Dodge with white stripes, which matched John's description. John was treated at the hospital and taken to the police station for a polygraph. The bullet was also removed from his shoulder for future ballistics comparison.

While at the station, John overheard Detective Sergeant Kenneth Kuntz, who was assigned to the Lisa Ann Milliken investigation, playing a tape of the mysterious female caller. John identified the voice as the woman who shot him. And then after that, he helped create a composite sketch of the two suspects. He also agreed to submit to hypnosis to refresh his memory, but all he could recall during the session was a bumper sticker he had not previously described. John drove around with Detective Sergeant Kahn's to see if anything jogged his memory. He pointed out a brown dodge.

and a red granada. I think the police probably shifted pretty quickly once they realized that his story was sounding more and more credible. Kines was also looking into the Linda Adair and Kenneth Dooley cases. He wanted to determine if something had happened to the female caller during her time at the Youth Development Center that would cause her to hold a grudge. Duley and Adair denied that any sexual abuse had occurred and said they didn't know each other outside of a professional relationship at the YDC. Determined to get to the bottom of things, Detective Kines went over all the files of the girls who were sent to the YDC and narrowed down a list of five girls with prior records.

one of them was Judith Ann Neely, who matched the description of the woman in the brown car, given by some witnesses. Judith was held at the Reform School for seven months in 1981 for robbing a grocery store and stealing over $3,000 from a gas station where she worked. It was an armed robbery charge, meaning she had some experience with a gun. YDC security chief Booker Anderson told investigators Judith didn't cause any problems while she was there. So person of interest?

Yeah, I think so, right? She matches the descriptions. She was at this youth development center. Meanwhile, Linda Dare read the description of the Hancock Chapman incident in the paper and believed she knew who was responsible. She spoke to the police on October 12. When the police described the two children who were with the man called Night Rider, Linda remembered a girl from the YDC and even had photos.

She identified her as Judith Neely, who was married to Alvin Neely. Judith was only 18, and she had lived a very troubled life. Judith was born in Murphysboro, Tennessee, in 1964. Her father died in an accident. When she was nine, she didn't have a stable or safe homeland. And Judith's mother was arrested for contributing to the delinquency of a teenage boy. Now, I don't have any details of what that exactly was, but it doesn't sound good. Not at all.

I can see the rough childhood there, though. Judith met her future husband, Alvin Neely, when she was only 15. Alvin was 12 years her senior. Okay, I get it. It's, uh, you know, Tennessee and the, the mid-1970s, but this is some Jerry Lee Lewis type stuff here. Oh, great balls of fire. Yeah.

I mean, he's 27. She's only 15 years old. Yeah. It's, uh, pretty, pretty good span there. Yeah. And, and a little creepy. If you ask me. Yeah.

I don't know if it was illegal in Tennessee at the time. time because, you know, as we've talked about, the age of consent has been different throughout the years. Alvin and Judith fell in love, but he was already married and had three children with his wife. He sought a divorce which his wife agreed to. And then Alvin and Judith eloped in Georgia in 1980. And it was said that Judith fell into a life of crime easily. She and Alvin were constantly on the move, robbing convenience stores and gas stations across state lines. What an exciting thing to do with your partner. Let's go rob some stores and gas stations and I love you, baby.

Well, how much easier do you think it was to rob a gas station in 1980 than it is today? Oh, definitely easier for sure. Yeah, I mean, today, you know, we have so much video surveillance. a lot of the gas stations, you know, a clerk is behind some kind of thick plexiglass that makes it hard to get to them. I think you're also going to be limited on your take because they do those constant drops. They do. They do. And at least, you know, when I was in the gas station business, the most you could take out was a pretty low amount from the safe. and then it was a matter of time before you could make another withdrawal. It was a time delay.

Yeah. As we mentioned in 1980, they robbed a woman at gunpoint at the River Bend Mall parking lot, the same place Lisa Milliken was abducted from. They were then arrested for trying to cash stolen checks. Alvin had outstanding warrants in several states. He was sentenced to five years in prison. And Judith was sent to the youth. Development Center. She was pregnant at the time and gave birth to twins before she was transferred

to another facility in Macon. Judith often wrote to Alvin about how much she hated the staff at the YADC. She claimed they sexually abused her. All of her allegations have been denied and police found no evidence to support them. However, Alvin believed her and wanted to get revenge. So this starts to make a lot of sense, right? When you go back to this woman who's placing calls and talking about abuse at the youth development center, I mean, she is really fitting in perfectly. She wants revenge. And Alvin does as well. Judith was released towards the end of 1981 and moved in with Alvin's parents in Cleveland, Tennessee to await his release. She was soon arrested for robbing a convenience store.

Alvin's parents helped care for the twins while she was incarcerated. Alvin was granted early release. He and Judith picked up their kids and returned to their life of crime with the goal of getting revenge against the staff at the YDC. Okay, so I think we've established that part, right? This is a big goal. She wants revenge. Alvin wants revenge for her.

but the one thing that's really jumping out at me is we haven't really talked about a lot of gainful employment. It seems to me like two people trying to live their lives funding it by just robbing convenience stores. Not the best way to go about it. No, I mean, can you get some money? Well, yeah, obviously you can, but it's illegal. you're putting your freedom in jeopardy.

But I get it Gibbs. There are some people, they don't want to have, you know, that 40 hour a week job. They don't want to go through that grind. And they see what to them is an easier way to get money and they take it. But you're rolling the dice every time.

Every time. And they were caught multiple times, it sounds like. Yeah. I don't think they did, you know, very long stretches. They were out somewhat quickly. But after Alvin got out, they needed money. So he taught Judith how to steal checks from post offices and use the signatures to forge money order. To keep track of each other, they installed CB radios in their cars and used the handles Knight Rider and Lady Sundown. Good buddy. 10-4.

10-4. Sphinctor-Niner. ringworm. After speaking to Linda Dare, Detective Sergeant Kenneth Kahnz found the Neely's criminal records and requested photos, he showed John Hancock, a photo lineup, and he hesitantly identified Judith and Alpin as Lady Sundown and Knight Rider, but he would need to see them in person to be certain. Detective Kines learned that the two suspects had already been arrested in Tennessee for unrelated crimes. So they were committing a lot of crimes.

They were also getting caught quite a bit. It's not staying in jail or prison very long. Well, which we know happened back then. Judith was arrested on October 10th, 1982, at the University Inn in Murphysboro for using forged checks and money orders at a bank. Alvin was arrested on October 12. And the couple quickly turned on each other.

Alvin's attorney urged him to tell the police what he knew. He claimed Judith had instigated the crimes. And he had just gone along with her. She liked to have power over others. He was afraid she would kill him. Alvin claimed he and Judith were recruiters and enforcers for a prostitution ring. He implied that there could be up to eight more murder victims. He's giving it up pretty quick.

But is he being truthful, right? That's the question. He's definitely pointing the finger at her as kind of the ringleader mastermind. Yeah. You know, he even said it. He just went along with her. But he did indicate he was either present or had firsthand knowledge of the murders, but stop short of claiming responsibility for the killings. And you and I talk about it quite a bit, right? You have these two people who are, thick as thieves, right? They're in it together right up until the time that they get caught for something very serious. And then it's like, uh-oh, how do I save my own ass? Oh, no, I'm not going to go to prison. It was hurt the whole time. The murders allegedly occurred in Macon, Columbus, Albany, and Gordon County, Georgia, as well as Opelika, Dothan and DeKalb County. Alabama over an 18-month period. He also claimed to have information about the shooting of a pregnant woman. He really is not holding back.

No, he's laying a lot of stuff out there, but again, he's not really taking responsibility for the killings. He's laying all of that on Judith. Alvin shared information over two days of interrogation. According to Chattanooga County Sheriff Gary McConnell is quoted by the Maconnell. is quoted by the making news. Neely didn't say he pulled the trigger. He hasn't confessed to the murders, but he has information that leads us to believe that he and his wife may be involved. Neely said they were trying to recruit females off the street to act as prostitutes in their prostitution ring.

It was also reported that Alvin was extremely knowledgeable about the locations of the bodies and how they were killed McConnell went on to say he knew where they were found, how the women were killed, and he knew what these other people looked like. He's familiar with these cases down to the last detail. So obviously he's gaining some credibility in that respect. Judith initially accepted all the blame for the murders and described how she killed Lisa Milliken and Janice Chapman.

She said Lisa begged for her life. and explained that she disposed of the genes found at the crime scene because Lisa's blood was on them. She also took responsibility for shooting at and throwing a bomb at the houses in Rome. She alleged that Kenneth Dooley raped her and Lisa Adair set it up. Okay, we have what seems like a lot of honesty here or at least a lot of willingness to tell the details. Yeah. But Judith eventually changed her story and shifted some of the blame to her husband. I wonder Gibbs if that happened after she found out that he was pointing the finger at her.

I'm going to say I think so. Authorities believe Lisa was abducted from the mall and held captive in two hotel rooms in Georgia and Alabama. Over a three-day period, Judith and Alvin raped Lisa in front of their children. children and kept her handcuffed to a bed forcing her to sleep on the floor. I mean, what in the hell are we talking about here? Sexual assault, rape is absolutely horrible. It always is, right? It's hard to talk about. It's hard to think about. But then you add in this element that these two people are doing it in front of their children, which is sick. It's all sick. It just makes it even worse somehow, if that's even possible.

Judith claimed that at Alvin's direction, she took Lisa to the canyon and tried to inject her with drain cleaning. To kill her, Judith injected her six times, over a 30-minute period, but it didn't work. She then shot Lisa three times with a 38-caliber pistol. One bullet went through Lisa's back and exited from her chest, which killed her. When Judith was certain she was dead, she pushed her body over the edge of the cliff and watched her fall to the bottom of the canyon. Just sit there and watch her fall 80 feet, huh? Yeah, it sounds pretty sadistic. But also this drain cleaner thing.

If you've got the 38 caliber with you, why are you bothering with the drain cleaner? And maybe she thought that the drain cleaner wouldn't be noticeable and that the fall. and that the fall off the cliff would then look more like the cause of death, which could be viewed possibly as an accident. Obviously, shots from a 38 are not. No. Judith indicated she was alone. Alvin denied being there,

but he also denied raping Lisa. Alvin initially denied ever being with Judith and Lisa, but witnesses saw him at both. motels. He tried claiming that Judith performed a sexual act on him and put his semen in Lisa's body. But he was forced to admit that he raped Lisa when police refused to believe him. But he was trying to convince him. He was. It's just such a implausible explanation. She was trying to frame me. So she committed a sex act on me and then put my semen in this woman's body.

I just always wonder Gibbs, did these people not realize how absolutely ridiculous they sound with some of these stories that they make up? It's aposterous. Yeah. I like the way you got that out. But I think you're absolutely right. Either that or they're just not smart enough to craft a believable story that could help explain away the. evidence against them. Yeah, well, we know there's dumb asses out there. Well, there's a lot. Judith also confessed that five days after killing Lisa Milligan, she spotted a woman at a pay phone

who appeared to be alone, but the woman wouldn't go with her. I think that's the other thing I'm getting from this case is it's like Judith is out looking, stalking, hunting. She's a predator. trying to find these women who are alone. Now, she's able to get some to go with her, but my assumption is that there's a lot that she tried to get to go that didn't. And here's one she's talking about. Then Judith spotted Janice Chatman on October 3rd. Janice was with a man,

but they decided they could get rid of him and take the girl. Judith invited them to go with her and they agreed. Judith called Alvin on the CB radio to let him know in coded language that she was on her way. They met on the outskirts of town. Janice and John got into Alvin's car and the children rode with Judith.

And we talked about this a little bit, right? When they stopped, Judith forced John into the woods and shot him so that he was out of the way. She and Alvin took Janus to a motel and raped her repeatedly, Judith killed Janice, and they dumped her body in a wooded area near creek. Didn't she tell him why she had him in the woods at one point? You don't need to worry about your girlfriend. Yeah, I don't know how much you can believe from someone who is holding a gun on you and then

ultimately shoot you. But the one thing that jumped out at me earlier, I waited, let's talk about it now, is the fact that all of this went down with the kids in Judas car. Yeah. So they are raping women in front of these children. They're taking these children along when people are abducted, people are shot. I mean, obviously, they don't have a lot of regard for human life. We know that. But it's apparent that they had very little regard for their children as well.

Yeah. in his interview, Alvin gave the impression that he didn't want to commit the rapes and murders. And I think he's trying his best, right, to say, you know what? Yeah, I was there, but I really didn't want to do all this. It was all her. She pressured me. I kind of went along with it. Now, normally, that's not going to get you out of it.

No, it. But could it help soften things, the sentencing? Yeah, it could. if someone buys it. They decided they wanted to commit a third murder, but they would need some money first. They went to Murphy's Borough to pass some of their forged money orders. But someone recognized them from a police flyer,

and they were arrested. Alvin claimed the check-casting scheme was all Judas' idea, while Judith claimed they planned it together. Alvin drew a map to find Janice's body, which implicated himself in the crime. On October 15th, Janice Chapman's body was found about 15 miles southeast of Somerville in Chattanooga County on a creek bank about 400 yards from a road. She was shot twice in the chest and once in the back.

Janice and Lisa Milliken were both shot with 38 caliber bullets. This type of ammunition was found in the Neely's vehicles. Judith was charged with two counts of murder in Georgia and Alabama, as well as the shooting of John Hancock. Alvin was charged with one count of murder in Georgia. So we've talked about Alvin trying to kind of distance himself, wriggle out of this, or at least soften his involvement. And it sounds like he did a fairly good job of it. Yeah, I think it worked for him. because he got charged with a little bit less than Judith did.

On October 18th, Detective Kenneth Kines revealed that Judith committed crimes to release the anger she felt towards the juvenile court system. Kines noted that Albany authorities were tentatively investigating the Neely's in connection with the shooting of 22-year-old Janice Hare on October 8th, who was shot in the head and, lost the baby she was carrying. Janice was on life support at the hospital. I mean, you want to talk about cold-blooded. Pretty hard to believe that either Alvin or Judith or Boe didn't know that this woman was pregnant.

But you know what, Gibbs? They didn't care. No, they didn't. They still shot her in the head killing her baby. I mean, to do something like that. I guess it had to be terrible to what happened in Judith, if you believe Judith. That's something happened at the youth center. But it had to be awful for her to do what she's been doing.

But here's the thing, right? It's one thing to want to get back at an officer who you said raped you. And then there was one woman that she said helped set it up. But there's not a connection made to all. all these women, right, as having something to do with how she was treated in this youth development center. So I don't know how that plays in every single case. I don't know how it can.

Judith was indicted for capital murder in the Lisa Milliken case, meaning she faced a death penalty. Judith sought to be tried under the Youthful Offender Act. if convicted as a youthful offender, she would serve just three years and pay a $1,000 fine. And I get it, she was younger. But to me, these are the acts of an adult. I mean, I think when you talk about trying juveniles as adults, I don't know how you could get a case that would warrant it that much more than what we've talked about. Yeah. I'm just, you know, if you're the victim's family and you're hearing that she might only have to do three years and pay $1,000.

You're furious, right? Absolutely. Her petition was denied in December 1982. Judith's attorney then put forth in Insandy Defense based on battered woman syndrome. Judith was six months pregnant when she was arrested. Her son, Jason Alvin Neely, was born in January 19. In 1983. Jury selection for Judas Capitol murder trial started on May 7, 1983.

In opening statements, defense attorney Bob French, said, Judith shot Lisa because she was carrying out Alvin's orders. Alvin lured Judith away from her home in 1979 when she was 15, and according to French, robootized her into his slave. through beatings and threats against her and their children. I've never heard that used as a verb, but essentially what he's saying is he turned her into robot. Yeah, right?

Robotized. He was controlling her mind, all of that. He said, Judith was beaten and brainwashed into procuring Lisa McCann as a sex partner for Alvin and followed his instructions in killing her. It was Alvin who saw, spotted Lisa McCann in an arcade and told Judith, that's the one I want. When you hear it like that and you think about it, it just gives me the Willies?

The Willys? Yeah. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. Now, we have a real conundrum here because, right, Alvin is saying some stuff that is completely different than this. Judith used her experiences from her time at the detention center to talk Lisa and her running away with her while they were driving to a motel. Alvin was talking to Judith in code instructing her to convince Lisa to have sex with him. She begged him not to, but he insisted. She watched while Lisa was raped at gunpoint.

The defense called the murder of Lisa Milliken the ultimate sex act for Alvin Neely. They said, but that just wedded his appetite. And then it had to be Janice Chapman. Just wanted more. Yeah, I think for the jury, you know, this is a tough one. You know, are they both equally culpable? Or if not, who's telling the truth here?

Because they're saying completely different things. Yeah. Bob French told the jury is quoted by the Birmingham Post Herald. There are two Judy Neely's. The one you see here is very different from the one that was under the control of Alvin Neely. Every move, every action, every thought for carrying out this heinous event was planned, calculated, and instigated by Alvin Neely. You know, I think a lot of defense attorneys, man, they can be really masterful. Oh, yes, with their words in trying to paint someone a certain way, whether it's trying to paint their client as less guilty than what they are or not guilty at all or paint someone else, in this case, Alvin, as the person who was behind it all, did everything and just brainwashed their client.

You got to be good with being a ward smith. You know, I taught that for a little while. Two other defense attorneys? Yeah. Yeah, that would make sense. Alvin instructed Judith to inject Lisa with drain cleaner. Judith told Lisa she would be giving her shots that would put her to sleep. And when she woke up, they would be gone.

And she could go home. When the injections failed to do anything, Alvin yelled at her to shoot Lisa. And she did. Judas's earlier confession showed that she was trying to protect her abusive husband. And we talked about it, right? I don't think there's any doubt. Alvin came out of the gate pointing the finger at Judith. Judith didn't do the same thing from the very beginning.

Right. You know, she admitted to some stuff, even said, oh, Alvin wasn't there. Alvin wasn't involved. I just wonder at what point her mindset changed and went from trying to protect him to trying to point a finger at him. Cover her own ass. Yeah. And maybe it was because she knew that she was safe from him or she had found out that he was throwing her under the bus. So she's like, hey, forget that.

I'm coming back at you. All's fair play, yeah. The prosecution argued that Judith was guilty and intended to terrorize and sexually violate this girl. The jury heard from John Hancock, who testified that a woman in a brown dodge offered him and Janice a ride. They didn't need one, but the woman persisted. When they got into the car, the woman didn't drive them home.

Instead, she met a man in a red, Granada. He turned two small children over to the woman and Hancock got in the car with the man. The cars went to a closed beer joint in Alabama, then to Somerville to look for a bootlegger. When they failed, they headed back to Rome and stopped on a dirt road when Hancock had to relieve himself. He heard the man called Knight Rider tell the woman. If we're going to do it, let's get it over with. Okay. I think if you're out taking a leak and you hear that come across the CB, first of all, you need to hurry up or zip up or do something so you can be ready to defend yourself. Yeah. Don't want that dangling out there. You're in a real precarious position right there.

But, you know, you hear that and you got to think, okay, what's my options here? Run? Well, yeah, you may not know exactly what they're talking about, but whatever it is, it can't be good, right? If we're going to do it, let's get it over with it. At the very least, you got to be thinking robbery or something along those lines. The woman pulled a gun on him and forced him to walk down the road before he was shot. Hancock recalled the man yelling from a distance, hurry up, get it over with, we got to go. seconds before she pulled the trigger, the woman said, don't worry about your girlfriend.

I'll take care of her too. Now, Hancock didn't identify the abductors during his testimony, but it was clear he was talking about Judith and out. And I do think, you know, the fact that this man survived, the shooting that had to have been big for prosecutors, right, to have this guy be able to take the stand. because he's still alive and recount what happened that night. The defense called on Alvin's ex-wife, Joanne Browning, who testified that Alvin beat her

and continually abused her during their five-year marriage. Not surprised. He seems to have that personality. Where, you know, he could snap at any point. He obviously has no regard for women. So, yeah, it doesn't surprise. me either. Alvin experienced mad spells. Joanne explained by the Birmingham news. Something about his eyes when he got mad scared me. If I didn't do something just the way he wanted me to do it,

he'd just haul off and hit me. I've been bruised all over my body. He hit me in my head, in the breast area, on my legs and on my arms. He hit me all over, really. Joanne testified that she was Alvin's slave and said yes, when asked if she would have killed someone if he asked her to. So again, you know, I think we're getting into the area of brainwashing somewhat or at the very least getting to the point where you can exercise control over someone because you've molded them over the years. I think brainwashing goes hand-to-hand with that. Judith got out on the stand and testified that she was terrified of her husband, saying,

I'd do whatever he told me to do. I wanted to get away from him, but I couldn't. Her attorney asked her why she couldn't get away. Judas said, because he told me no matter where I went, he'd bring me back, and I'd catch hell for leaving. I think that's what abuser's going to say. And so there could possibly be some truth to that, right? We've heard of that before.

The jury's got a hard job here, figure out who's telling the truth and who's not. Alvin was jealous and controlling, so much so that he followed her to the restroom and forbade her to look out windows of the motel or apartments they stayed in. Judas' attorney read letters she received from Alvin in 1981, while he was, was in jail and she was in juvenile detention. These letters exhibited the control. Alvin held over Judith. He wrote in one letter, you never really stood by me, except when there was fun and money.

Every time I needed someone to talk to and stand by me, you were never there. In another letter, Alvin vowed to see that everyone who has made me unhappy, the rest of their lives will be unhappy and destroyed. I may smile, but in the inside, I want to destroy. And if I can, I will. In other letters, he wrote threats to Judith, such as, keep your nose clean. I don't want to hear the wrong things about you. There are two things I can do. Love you or destroy you. Wow. When you play, you pay. You're a real little girl. Easy to push over. you fell for a little meathead punker with a line as old as you. After you see what I can do, you're going to wonder why you ever crossed me.

He is definitely intimidating her. Well, and, you know, having these letters, you know, how far does that go in the minds of the jury? And possibly, you know, kind of corroborating her story that he was, the mastermind. She felt like there was nothing else she could do, but to go along with what he said. During her testimony, Judith told the jury how Alvin forced her to clean and stocked the stores. Where he worked, he stole cash from registers, forced her to steal cashier bank deposits, and showed her how to forge money orders. In November 1980, less than two weeks before she had twins, He forced her to rob a woman at gunpoint in a mall.

I mean, she's due in two weeks. Out there wheeled in a gun, robbing people. Yeah. Not to say that she couldn't have done that of her own free will, it doesn't sound like something a lot of women, pregnant women, two weeks away from giving birth, want to be outdoing. I know my wife just wanted to, you know, have her legs propped up and be on the couch and relaxing because it's a really hard time, right?

Most people aren't out waving guns and robbing people. Yeah, I think it's probably pretty easy to give birth. Doesn't look that complicated to me. I'm glad you said that. I hope you get the most hate mail you've ever received. They know, I'm joking. Unless you edit that all out, but that one little piece I said, then I'm in trouble. I might.

I might. Judith also testified that she tried several times to recruit sex partners for Alvin, but was unsuccessful before she picked up Lisa Milliken. She wrote around the streets and shopping malls looking for girls. She said Alvin was supposed to have them as long as he wanted. Then I was supposed to get rid of them. I didn't question him. I went along with him and told him I would do it. So she was the one that was supposed to find them, bring them back. And then when he felt he had no more use for him, you need to go ahead and kill him for me. But can we go back to him having her do his work for him at his job?

Now, I've heard of some lazy people, but... That takes the cake. It does. Judah testified that when they were reunited, after Alvin got out of prison, Alvin suspected she had sex with employees at the juvenile detention center and beat her. She admitted it so that he wouldn't hit me anymore. Judith also testified that on October 9th, 1982,

she asked her mother to call the Murphy's Borough police and have her arrested. But she didn't have an explanation for why she did this. She testified that when she was arrested, she was with her husband and a woman named Casey, whom she picked up as a sex partner for him. After her arrest, she confessed to an FBI agent, so Alvin wouldn't get in trouble. That's got to be some type of brainwash

for another woman to go out to find and bring back a sex partner for her husband. If she's telling the truth, right? I mean, I think you always have to throw that in there. Judith testified in death about the murder of lethal. Millican, saying per the Birmingham news, I told Lisa to turn around with her back to me. I was, I guess, about five or six feet away from her. I was holding the gun, but I couldn't

pull the trigger. Al was hollering at me. He yelled, do it, bitch. I pulled the trigger. Lisa fell backwards and Al started cussing and said, I didn't do it right or she would have fallen into the canyon, like he said. He told me to put the gun up. and pushed Lisa off into the canyon. Then Al came over to the edge of the canyon to make sure Lisa was dead. He looked over down, down at Lisa. He was smiling and I heard, I heard a sound, the sound that Al made whenever he sexually satisfied himself.

Okay. Creepy. Absolutely. She said about Janice Chatman's murder. I walked Janice out to where Alvin told me to. And I told her to turn her back to me. She had seen the gun. I had it down by my side.

She didn't say anything. I was taking a little bit too long. Al hollered, bitch, what are you doing this time? I shot her once in the back. She started hollering. I was scared that someone was going to hear her.

She had fallen backwards on her back. When she was hollering, I shot her two more times in the chest. chest to shut her up, Alvin was laughing. He said he heard her holler. At trial, she maintained that Alvin directed every detail of the murders and had sex with both victims, and he vowed to get revenge for her non-existent affairs at the Youth Development Center. In closing statements, D.A. Richard Igal told the jury, contrary to what Mr. French has told you, Judith Annih Neely is not the most important person in this case. Lisa Milliken was, even though she's not here.

You can't forget that, and I don't think you have. Alvin didn't have the nerve to kill, but she did. She's got plenty of nerve. She meant to kill Lisa, and she did. On March 22nd, 1983, Judith Neely was found guilty of murder and kidnapped. The jury voted for life in prison, but on April 18, 1983, Judge Randall Cole overrode the jury's recommendation and sentenced Judith to death. During the hearing,

Judith got on the stand for 10 minutes of questioning by her attorney. She was asked how she felt about the possibility of getting the electric chair. She said, I don't want to die. There's nothing I can do to change the past, but I can help stop something like this from happening again. I can help battered wives and abused children. That's what I want to do. On December 13, 1983, Judith pleaded guilty to kidnapping Janice, Chapman, and was sentenced to life in prison.

She was to be the chief witness at her husband's upcoming trial. Prosecutors agreed to drop the murder charge in exchange. in exchange for her testimony. But on December 28, 1983, Alvin Neely pleaded guilty to the kidnapping and murder of Janice Chapman a month before trial. He received two life terms. And he just wonder why he would decide to plead guilty.

Is it because they took the death penalty off the table? I didn't read that, but that's a possibility. I think you can read into that, though. Or is it, you know, because, he thought the evidence was just so overwhelming. He knew he was going to get convicted. Hey, I don't want to go through all this BS. She's going to testify against me.

During her time in prison, Judith converted to Christianity and developed a relationship with another woman who shot herself in her home in May 1994. The woman left a cassette recording of their plans to end their lives. Judith was found in herself. She had slashed her wrist with a razor, but survived. Okay, so they had a, I guess what you would call a suicide pact, but Judith survived. On January 15th, 1999, Judy's death sentence was commuted by Governor Fobb James in one of his final acts in office.

James didn't give an explanation. State officials had planned to ask for an execution at the time of the commutation. So they were wanting to put her to death and instead her sentence was commuted. James acted without consulting Attorney General Bill Pryor who expressed disappointment. The governor's act also shocked former DA Richard Igow who said he did this without speaking to the DA's office or asking our opinion. It is clear he did not want us to be involved in his decision. Alvin Neely died in prison on October 21st, 2005, while undergoing surgery. He was 52 years old and serving his sentence at the Bostic State Prison in Hardwick, Georgia. Because of the sentence

commutation, Judith Neely is now eligible for parole. She was first considered for release in 2014, but lost her bid for parole. Most recently on May 25th, 2003, the Alabama Board of Pardons and Parolels denied parole to Judith two days after the governor sent a letter strongly opposing her release.

I bet. I mean, this is a woman who was on death row. Yeah. Maybe that previous governor thought, oh, well, she was a juvenile. Yeah, she was. I didn't, I forgot to mention it, but at the time, Judith Neely was the youngest woman sentenced to death in the United States. But it's obvious to me, Gibbs, that there were a lot of people that thought what that governor did was BS. And then you have another governor later on,

you know, writing a letter saying, hey, don't let this woman out. So she was the youngest woman in that state to be sentenced to the death penalty? They didn't say the state. It just said in the U.S. Oh. To get the death penalty. Wow. Yeah. Because, you know, we said it. She was only 15 years old. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, Judith McNeely remains incarcerated in Alabama, the former governor's decision to commuter sentence, and the fact that Judith could possibly be released one day is upsetting to a lot of people due to the horrific crime she committed against vulnerable young women.

While Judith claimed she was under the control of her abusive husband, when she committed the two murders, investigators and prosecutors argued that she was a cold and calculated killer, despite her young age. She seemed to be pretty cold. Yeah. I mean, what she did undoubtedly was, I think the big question is who's telling the truth here? There's no doubt that both of them participated in some way, right? In finding these women, there was sexual components.

And then obviously there was murder. The real question for me is, was she so scared of this man, Alvin, that she was willing to do whatever he said, including murder, Or was that just an excuse she used after she was caught? And I don't know the answer to that. I don't either. I think there's a little bit of truth and what they both said. There could be.

There could be. But there's no doubt she did pull the trigger. Yes. It does help that there was a survivor. Yeah, it does. It does. And, you know, to be honest with you, it's hard for me to say that a 15-year-old, should get the death penalty.

That's a little tough. Yeah. Because I think the Supreme Court at some point did change that, or at least it couldn't be automatic or automatic life in prison. I can't remember what they, what decision they made, but I'm not saying some people don't deserve it because they do. But obviously she's not going to be put to death.

I do think the fact that she could be released. is wrong. Yeah, I do. The reason for her to be out. But that's it for our episode on Alvin and Judith Neely. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out? Let's hear it.

Hello, my name is Anne from Middleton, Colorado. I'm a huge fan. I actually started listening to criminology to start with, and then went back and listened to true crime all the time. I'm solved. And now I'm working my way. true crime all the time. I had to stop and call and leave a voicemail.

I'm on the Leonard Typerstie episode, but I had to stop because Mike Ferguson talked about why he doesn't make his bed. It's a true waste of time, and I 100% agree with that. I don't make my bed either for the same reason. anyway, I just wanted to call and leave a voicemail. I was going to say that I am team Mike. All of you, Morf, Ferg, and Gibby. Love you all.

But in this one particular case, I am team for me. So, thank you. Keep up the good work. I love all the shows you guys put out. Keep your head on a fool and keep your own time ticket. Oh my gosh, that AI software that you used worked beautiful to get her to say, Team Furgy. Yeah, yeah.

I finally had to break down and use the, what is it, chat GTP. I don't understand AI. I really don't. My wife's always talking about chat GTP and telling it to do things and it does it, but I don't really understand what it is. It's the husband. She always won it. Yeah, it is.

Maybe she'll find that someday. But again, I do think making the bed is, a waste of time. Now, I know a lot of people argued against me and they said, oh, it makes them feel better. They like to have it nice and neat. I just think it's wasted calories because you're just going to climb back in it. So if you're not washing the sheets, then there's no need to make the bed in my opinion. You're not parading people through your bedroom at any point throughout the day. I don't care if I was. That's true. The whole town could come through. I don't give a rat's ass. And You know it.

Here's my bed. That's right. Move on. The only thing about it is it's not pulled up. Yeah. Over the pillows. And you'd be like, and I know, some of you in this room right now, wish you would do the same. Exactly.

But your wife won't let you. All right, buddy. We actually had some mailbag. Yeah. Zach and Ariel Curran, who I know you met at CrimeCon. You said they were awesome. They were. They sent us a really nice holiday card.

Oh, that's sweet. So I wanted to give him a shout out. It's very much appreciated. Thank you. All right. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and give me, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.