True Crime All The Time - Amanda Noverr and Adam Williams

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

In the fall of 2019, Adam Williams left Utah to escape prosecution for multiple felonies. He and his wife, Amanda Noverr, planned to flee the country and start a new life in Mexico, but they needed to steal a vehicle first. They targeted James and Michelle Butler, a married couple traveling the country in their RV and happened to be at the same campsite. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Amanda Noverr and Adam Williams. Both had criminal records, but Williams's charges were much more serious. It seemed as though he was willing to do anything not to face his current criminal charges in Utah, including murdering an innocent couple. But what was Amanda's role in this crime? Was she involved willingly or in a toxic relationship that she was too scared to exit?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 379 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How about you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. It's been a kind of a wild week, to be honest with you.

We talked about it on Patreon in detail, but we had the eclipse. That was amazing. I had a root canal, not as amazing. And then I finally watched the movie Salt Burn that you've been trying to get me to watch. and I may or may not be scarred for life. I don't know. Well, that's good. I'm glad you had a good week.

It's been, it has been a pretty good week. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Danny W. Hey, Danny. Crystal Schroeder. I appreciate that Schroeder. Ray Dude.

What's up, dude? Shawna W. Hey, Shawna. Dee Harris. What's going on, Dee? John McCurdy jumped out at our highest level. That's awesome, John. Thank you.

Catherine, April Rodriguez. Hey, thanks, Catherine. Riley Fulton. What's going on, Fulton? Richa Smith. Got to reach out and reach a. That's what I'm going with. Rachel Nicodemus.

Ah, Nicodemus. Emmanuel Michelle gave a shout out to Alandra Jordan. Well, thanks, Emmanuel, and Alondra. And last but not at least, Nicole D. Hey, Nicole D, what up? Yeah, so we appreciate that new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Amanda Campbell. Well, that's awesome, Amanda.

Thanks for hanging in there with us. Yeah, absolutely. We also had a great PayPal donation from Deborah DensFry. Easy for you to say. Denth fry. I don't know if I said it correctly, but that was my take on it. Yeah. So Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved where we're talking

about a 16-year-old girl named Tara Smith headed out to Redding, California. This goes back to 1998. And basically, Tara said, you know, she was going out for a jog. should have lasted 15, 20 minutes, but she never came back. So there's that mystery, but then there's also, you know, a person of interest. They haven't been named as a suspect by authorities, but I'll say a person of interest who Tara's family believes may have had something to do or at the very least know something. Yeah.

About what happened to her. It's a long jog, man, 15, 20 minutes. I figure five minutes, I'm done. Well, I wouldn't even lace up my shoes. to start the job. So you've made it further than I would. Yeah. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I am ready. We're talking about Amanda Nover and Adam Williams. In the fall of 2019, Adam Williams left Utah to escape prosecution for multiple felonies. He and his wife Amanda Nover had this plan. They were going to flee the country and start a new life in Mexico. But to do that, they had to steal a vehicle first.

And they ended up targeting a married couple who were traveling the country in their RV. You ever had an RV? They have not. Had many friends that have RVs. And I always wanted to, you know, go across the country and maybe it's just some other countries with an RV and just kind of explore. Okay.

I always wanted like a pull like an air stream or something behind me. Okay. So not like one that you could drive, but more than one one you could pull. Yeah, because I want to unhook it and then take my truck wherever I want, you know, without driving my whole home with me.

But I like RVs too. Yeah. I've never, I've actually never even traveled in one. Yeah. To be honest with you. And I do think it would be a lot of fun just because, you know,

you can go the bathroom whenever you need to go to the bathroom. There are a lot of things that are your first thought. That is my first thought. There are a lot of things that are solved by having an RV. No, it makes it really nice. I mean, I took one once with some buddies up to South Dakota and it was real handy, you know. But maybe we should rent one for CrimeCon and just park outside of the CrimeCon location. But stay in the RV.

I'm sure that would be legal. Well, you know, it's CrimeCon. It's CrimpCon. So Adam Curtis Williams was 33. years old at the time of his arrest, he had spent about half his life incarcerated and had both a juvenile and adult record. His adult record dated back to 2004, Adam had been convicted of assault, theft, and narcotics charges. I think this is something that you see quite a bit. You know, you see these people with very long records. So they're in and out of jail, in and out of prison,

over the course of their life, but they're in so much that it results in them being incarcerated about the same amount of time that they're not incarcerated. Yeah, and it's definitely going to be, I think, disruptive to most people's life as you grow up. You know,

I mean, you're learning probably some bad habits while you're incarcerated, right? You're missing out on some of the key things that you should be learning as a kid, and as a young adult outside of being incarcerated and, you know, not only school, but also, you know, interacting with individuals, people, groups. I mean, that's pretty important.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Especially, you know, if you're going in as a juvenile, okay, what are you learning in there as opposed to maybe what you'd be learning in high school and, you know, interacting with people your age and your friends? on the outside, you know, what does that do for you later on? Yeah. And my thought is it can't be good. And then every time you're in, you know, it's so regimented. You've got some probably pretty bad people in there with you. You're learning some things that or having to do some things. Let's just be honest. Sure. That is going to make it hard for you to adjust when you get out. And I just wonder, you know, how many people reoffend because of that scenario, you know, is it that or is it that

they're just intent on, you know, living a life of crime or do they turn to that because they get out and they have no other, you know, real options or I don't know. I think it's a mix of all that. I think it probably is. In 2010, Adam was convicted of federal drug and fire. arms charges, he spent eight years in federal prison and was released in 2018. He returned to Logan, Utah, where he was supposed to complete 60 months of supervised relief. Adam met 32-year-old Amanda Luis Nover, a divorced single mother. Amanda was originally from California. Amanda struggled with substance abuse after her mother passed away from an illness. According to oxygen, she went on a self-destructive streak. You know, a lot of people do that when they lose someone close to them.

Yeah, I think there are a lot of people who have what they would probably call like a trigger event that maybe they were unable to cope with that started them down, you know, maybe a spiral, whether it was using drugs or, or whatever it was. You know, if you can't cope with something, some type of major life event, for some people, it can be extremely tough and lead to some kind of bad decision making and other types of things. Like Adam, Amanda had a criminal record, but her charges were not nearly as serious. She had convictions for disorderly conduct, intoxication, and misdemeanor assault.

So obviously, nowhere near as serious as Adam. I mean, those for you, that's like a, that's a Saturday night. That's is a good time. Amanda's childhood friend Dylan Aller told the show, Snap that Amanda dated men who were, quote, less than ideal. And she was abused by some of her partners. Okay, less than ideal.

That is a pretty broad category. Do you think like one of the guys that dated her was watching this show and went, hey, that's rough. That's a little rough on me. At first, Dylan thought Adam Williams was a nice, nice guy. It seemed like he and Amanda were trying to settle down and be a stable family for her children. He soon noticed that Adam had a temper. But he also knew that Amanda had a temper too. Oh man, that's never good when you have people that can flare up and have these tempers

together. Nobody should have it, period. Right. One person in a relationship's bad enough. But what happens when both individuals in a relationship have what is described as a volatile temper. Yeah. Things can get out of control really quickly. Dylan found out that Adam was violent towards Amanda in the summer of 2019. Amanda confided in him that Adam had become possessive. After he moved in with her, the two of them were using drugs together, which negatively affected theirs and the children's home life.

That goes without saying, right? Well, is it ever going to be good? And I guess it depends on what type of drugs we're talking about here. I mean, if you're talking about recreational marijuana every now and then after the kids go to bed, I think that's a lot different than if you're shooting heroin or, you know, meth or whatever it is, some of those are going to have a lot bigger effects. Oh, yeah. Than others.

It was said that the drugs caused them to stay awake for more than 24 hours. So that kind of, to me, rules out marijuana. Anyone who has smoked marijuana, it's not the type of drug that makes you wired for 24 hours. If anything, it makes you want to eat a pizza and go to sleep. at least that's been my, uh, experience. I just seen a new pizza franchise called stoner pizza. Oh. It's a, it's around that, you know?

Yeah. Like suggestions, suggestions are to open up a location next to the deposit. Dispensary. Nobody's depositing. They're taking it. They're taking it away. But, uh, no, I think you probably see more and more things pop up. as marijuana, you know, becomes legal in, and more and more places.

Because if there's one thing that it does do for most people, it causes the munchies. It causes people to want to eat something. Amanda began to struggle to take care of her kids. One of her children's grandmothers agreed to help her out, and her family warned her that Adam wasn't good for her. You know, a lot of families warn their loved ones like, you know, that girl's no good for you or that guy's no good for you i mean you you hear families do it i mean i've i've been part of some relatives relationships that i've been like hey that guy's no good

for you or she's no good for you you can tell you know when somebody's just not a good person but because they are in love they don't see it well and and they're also too close to it yeah You know, a lot of times it's easier for people on the outside of the relationship to see it because, you know, they can be objective. Whereas if you're immersed with this person, you may not see it the way it really is. Dylan Aller told Snap, she trusted in him and she figured he's done some things, but was willing to look past it in the name of love. So again, I think that goes back to what you were saying. You know, when you're in love, do you have things that you overlook? Absolutely.

And I think most people would say, yes, that's kind of part of the process. Especially when you are younger, I think you have more tolerance. As you get older, you have less tolerance for certain things because you're like, you know what? I know where this is going to go and I'm not willing to accept it. Well, because maybe you've experienced it before. Yeah. You know what the signs are of whatever it is. One of the couple's neighbors only identified as Mandy, told local news outlet ABC4 that she worried about Adam's criminal record.

After the couple moved into their home, she didn't think he should have been released from prison. And that's kind of a fascinating thought exercise. You know, if somebody new moves in next door. Yeah. And you find out that they did. eight years for this, this, this, this and this, what are you going to think? Well, I mean, I think there's probably some type of unconscious bias there, right? I mean, you're automatically going to be like a little guarded, a little more guarded

than maybe you should be. Yeah, I mean, you know, you want to think, okay, the person was caught. They did their time. They paid for their crimes. Right. Now they're free. We shouldn't hold that against them. But like you said, is it maybe going to be natural for some people consciously or unconsciously to kind of hold it against them or at least be guarded and keep their distance? Yeah, I would say it could be. Probably locked your doors when maybe you wouldn't if it was somebody else or, you know, probably a lot of scenarios that you would do things differently because the concerns of their past. Again, everybody should be locked in their doors regardless of the scenario. I don't know how much I can stress this.

there is no reason not to lock your doors. An unidentified resident said that Adam's life went down a bad path after he saw his father end his own life. This anonymous resident said ever since then, Adam kind of took a bad direction and it's messed him up ever since. Up until then, he was a great guy. No, I can see how that can mess somebody up. Well, you know, losing a father or losing a parent is tough on its own. But imagine seeing your father take his own life, witnessing it. You can't tell me that that's not going to cause trauma.

It's going to cause mega trauma, I would think. One anonymous person wrote that Amanda has not made good choices and partners. This individual wrote, Amanda to me, had always been very sweet, very accepting, and very fun to be around. We were really close for several years growing up, but grew apart when we started going to different schools and her mom passed away. I think when we were in our sophomore year of high school. I know that was a big blow to her.

But again, by that point, we already had some distance there. Honestly, I don't think she would be involved in anything like this if it weren't for her relationship with this Adam guy. So there's kind of a trend here, right? There are a lot of people saying, and this is coming out later on. after the fact that Amanda made bad choices in her relationships. And the other thing is, I think a lot of people were putting the blame on Adam. You hear people saying, you know, she would have never done this if it weren't for him, meeting him and all of that. Adam and

Amanda got married on August 29th, 2019. Oxygen described their marriage as horribly catastrophic. That's a rough way to have your marriage described. Yeah, I don't think anyone goes into a marriage thinking that it's later going to be labeled horribly catastrophic. Now, we do know a lot of marriages end up badly, but horribly catastrophic is a pretty rough term. You're bent to a wedding where you're sitting there. You just know, this is not going to work out. This is not a good, arrangement. Yeah, I can actually think of a couple and one I was correct on and the other one is still going today. Oh. So there you go. 20 some years later probably. One for two? 50 50 50 50 50 on my prognostication. Okay. Adam Amanda and her three year old child left Utah in October because Adam was

fleeing from law enforcement. He had been charged with multiple felonies in two. cases on August 4th, 2019. Adam was charged with aggravated assault, assault by a prisoner, interference with an arresting officer, intoxication, and unlawful purchase by an interdited person. He was arrested in a domestic violence incident and had to be stunned with a taser. It's really not a good start here. Well, obviously August 4th was a bad day, but that is a lot. lot of different things to be charged with. In addition, you have to be stunned with a taser.

Yeah, because you're a little bit out of control or maybe a lot out of control. Remember that taser test you've been wanting to do? You keep bringing it up every now and then how you want to do a taser on me during the recording. But every time I think of it, I think it's going to go the way of like the hangover. Yeah. I think it's going to go very badly. Like I'm going to shoot you in your nether regions or in the face or somewhere where it's probably not going to be a great outcome. I don't think it's going to be a great outcome either. Either way. I think we just need to avoid it. It's probably why we haven't done it. So he's been charged with some pretty bad things, but it got worse because in September, Adam was charged with object rape, forcible sodomy,

and forcible sexual abuse in connection with a case from April 18, 2019. That's really bad. On October 8th, Utah prosecutors issued an arrest warrant for failure to appear in court for the sexual abuse case. Yeah, I think the, you know, the first set of charges we talked about, those are felonies, some of them. But they don't compare with the second set of things that he was charged with. Obviously, those were really horrible, really heinous. I'm just trying to figure out what Amanda's thinking. Yeah, I don't know how much like, you know, the, the blinders come in here.

You know, if you're in love with someone, how much are you willing to overlook? I understand overlooking someone's past because you're thinking, okay, from here on out, we're together, we're in love, this person is going to be on, you know, kind of the straight and arrow. But then when all this new stuff comes up, you have to make a decision. Yeah. You know, everybody that would be in this position has to make a decision. Do I stand by my partner or do I remove myself from this relationship? And obviously, she chose to stay with him. Now, could there have been a chance that she was fearful, too fearful to leave? And I never want to take that off the table, because we already talked about some abuse, physical abuse.

So I don't think that you can discount that. You know, it's not always a question of free will. Maybe it was here, but maybe it wasn't. Adam and Amanda wanted to travel to Mexico to start a new life with false identities, but first they needed to get money and a vehicle. They made their way to Padre Island near Corpus Christi, Texas, and we're camping on a beach. when they saw an opportunity.

You ever been to Padre Island? I have not. I've had a friend that stayed there for a little bit and loved it. Yeah, I haven't either. I remember, I think it was when I was in college, that was kind of a spring break destination. Yeah. We always ended up going to Panama City, Florida.

But I remember a lot of the kids went to Padre Island. Fort Lauderdale is my location for spring break back in the day. So they spotted 48-year-old James. Butler and 46-year-old Michelle Butler camping nearby, they had a large camper, an expensive lawnmower, and a newer model Chevy 2,500 truck. Oh, yeah. Is there a reason why you just did the Kool-Aid man thing? That Chevy 2,500 series truck.

Well, that's a nice truck, right? Especially a newer model, an expensive lawnmower, a large camper. What are they seeing? Yeah. I mean, sounds like a financial opportunity. Well, they need a vehicle.

Yeah. And they need money. So I think you're absolutely right. I'm trying to figure out why someone's camping, why they have a lawnmower. Well, I was wondering the same thing, but James and Michelle Butler were a married couple

who were traveling across the country with their truck and camper. James Butler was known for being kind. It seemed like everyone who knew him liked it. And man, why do we hear that time after? time. We do in a lot of these cases for sure. When we're talking about a victim, you know, people come out and they say the nicest things. And I'm sure 98% of the time, it is that these people are great people. Yeah. I'm sure there is a percentage where people just don't want to come out and

talk bad about somebody who's, who's been a victim or a murder victim, something like that. But we've had a few where we weren't able to be so glowing in our talk about them. Yeah, it does happen. James joined the Navy in 1991 and decided to become a naval air traffic controller. His friend Chris Hainsworth told the show Snap that James was good at his job, saying, if you were a pilot and you heard Jimbo's voice, you knew you were okay. Yeah, I think, you know, as a pilot, if I heard, someone's comforting voice that, you know, I knew that they knew exactly what they were talking about.

I would feel comfortable too. Why anyone thought it was a good idea for you to have a pilot's license, I will never understand that. During his early years in the Navy, James met his first wife and they had two kids together. James was a devoted father who loved his kids. He remained close with them after he got divorced. In 2010, James retired from the Navy and returned to his home in Rumney. New Hampshire because his mother was dying from cancer. And it was around this time that he met Michelle at a karaoke bar. You'd be a good karaoke singer. I am a good karaoke singer. Or you are a good

karaoke singer. Excuse me. Michelle was also from New Hampshire. She enjoyed barrel racing and rodeos, and she loved being around animals like James. Michelle was divorced and had her own children. Michelle and James fell in love. and their families and friends thought they were the right people for each other. They settled in Rumney. James became a supervisor or Walmart and Michelle got a job as a limo driver. They got married in 2015. So it does sound as though, you know, it was the second time around, right, for both of them. Yeah.

And I've heard from people that the second time you get married for me. at least many of the people I've talked about, they were sure that time because they had life experience and they knew what they were looking for in a partner, maybe more so than they did when they were younger. Yeah, maybe not so willing to settle. Sometimes people settle on things, and I think as you get older,

you're not willing to settle. You want what you want, and if you can't find it, you won't worry about it. Well, I think there's also some people who believe, well, okay, I understand that this person is this way now, but they'll change. Or I can change them. You can't change nobody. You know, my wife has changed me in some ways, but they're small, subtle ways.

I'm still the same person. Yes, you are. And for good and bad. You know, I have my good qualities. I have my bad qualities. Have some of them softened over the years? maybe a little bit, but they're still there. I just say you have qualities.

Have qualities. You're not really ready to quantify them. No. Either way. In 2018, after all, their kids had moved out, James and Michelle decided to act on their dreams of traveling the country. They left their home in June 2018, taking their three cats with them.

So, you know, they were kind of semi-retired. James had a Navy pension, but they both worked part-time jobs along the way to fund their travels. And it was said they loved their new lifestyle because it gave them the freedom to go anywhere. And it was vastly different from everyday life. And it does sound like it would be fun, right? You've got this RV and you just light out for wherever, whenever. Yeah.

And if you need some money, you stay somewhere for a while, work a little bit. I actually watched a channel on YouTube where this couple lived on a boat full time. Oh, really? And they would travel the world. But they would stop at a port for weeks at a time to work. Make enough money to buy with the need. Buy their supplies. And then they would just get back on the boat.

They visited national parks across the country and went on many scenic hikes. James and Michelle posted. pictures of their adventures on Facebook. Their friends and family enjoyed seeing what they were up to and everyone was supportive of their decision to travel. Okay, I get that, right? You're away from your friends and family. The kind of posting of these pictures would be a great way to kind of keep everybody up

to date on what you're doing. They're getting out there seeing this beautiful country, taking it all in. I mean, there's some people who live here all their lives. And don't get the chance to do this. No, and they never will see it, like somebody that doesn't like to come out of their basement. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know who you're talking about, but I get it.

So I do support that aspect of Facebook. I do not want to see what you had for dinner. I don't care about that. Or what that dinner did to you later? I definitely don't want to see that. Although they were far from home, James and Michelle spoke to their kids every day and kept them updated on their travel plans. When they got to Texas, they brought. They briefly worked as gate guards at an oil rig.

That's a pretty good gig. Sounds kind of fun. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, if you don't like it, but you just quit and find another job.

I mean, you're not really tied down. Right. You could try all kinds of different jobs. You're like, screw you, I'm out of here. They'd be like,

oh, you really are out of here, aren't you? Yeah. You're getting your RV and drive off. After that, they rented an RV space at Bally Park on,

Padre Island from September 30th to October 14th, Padre Island is a major tourist attraction because it offers beachfront camping. I did not know that, but that would be a cool place to go, I guess, if you had an RV. Yeah, for sure. On October 15th, 2019, they set up camp at Beach Marker 263, which was in a remote stretch of beach shielded by dunes. They planned to stay for a couple more weeks before moving on to Fort Lauderdale. They were supposed to arrive on November 20th to start working on a Christmas tree farm. So it's kind of interesting that sounds like they were lining up jobs

ahead of time based on where they knew they were going to be. You know, when I was younger, I always had this vision and this plan of me traveling, just like, you know, walking across America and stopping off with all these different little, you know, cities, villages, whatever. If I liked it, I'd stay and work for a little bit. And then when I got bored, I would move on and I'd just make sure, like, I would keep moving. Why would you be walking across the country?

Where are you, Forrest Gump? It's just the vision that I had. Okay. I mean, you're not even taking a bus from place to place. You're literally walking it. That's right. Okay. For a minute there, you sounded a little bit like Jack Rieck.

Oh, yeah? Is that what Jack Richard does? Yeah. He kind of just rolls into town. Yeah. But there is something to be said for that type of freedom because, you know, I did at one time have had this thought that I would have loved to have rode my Harley across country, just stopping somewhere when I needed to. That would have been a lot of fun. Yeah. Now, I don't know if my rear end could have handled it.

for that long, but, uh, it, I don't know if your wife would allow you to. No, there were, there were a number of obstacles in my way, which is why it ultimately never happened. Remember that movie Wild Hogs? Yeah, a little bit like wild hogs, but by myself. So that day, that October 15th, 2019 day, Michelle spoke to her son for the last time. James posted a picture of Michelle sitting on a chair facing the ocean. He wrote, setting up a on the beach, have lots to do, level us out, set up generator, set up new fridge, set up cooking station outside, and so on. But it would never get done if my beautiful wife didn't do perimeter security for me. She says, I'll take the first shift covering the east. Oh, I love you, Michelle

Butler. So I mean, it does sound like these are two people really in love. I'm getting that vibe. Also, it sounds like they got a pretty sweet setup. Yeah, it does. Generator, fridge, cooking station. Michelle sent her final text message at 11.15 p.m. On October 16th, James's sister had seen his post on Facebook and told them she wished she could sit on the beach too. Michelle responded, and that was the last time. Anyone spoke to her or James.

Michelle did make a final Facebook post on October 16. And her photos would later help the police locate the crime scene. At some point that day, Adam Williams and Amanda Novert spotted the bottlers and struck up a conversation with them. After chatting with the bottlers, Adam told Amanda to meet him at the RV site later that evening. And my thought is, this would be very normal. You know, if you are traveling in an RV and, you know, you're pulling into these campsites, I've not done it, but it seems like it would be normal that you'd have people around you. You'd strike up conversations, things like that. I think that's kind of normal. The problem is you don't know anything about the people around you. According to oxygen, Adam returned to the RV and shot the couple in the head with a 9mm gun. Amanda helped him bury the bodies in the doom. So, you know, getting back to your point, they see this couple, James and Michelle.

And it does sound like the first thought that went through their mind is, well, there's a couple who have some stuff that we would like to have. Yeah. Or that we need if we're going to make this journey, right, to flee the country. And so this conversation was what? a primer, a kind of a reconnaissance, if you will. I think it was exactly that, like a reconnaissance. Close enough. I mean, they come back right away, right?

Later that night. And it sounded like they had a plan because, you know, after shooting the couple, they buried the bodies in the dunes. Adam and Amanda then stole the butler's truck and camper and drove to Mexico. Amanda's child was still with them. after more than a week of not hearing from their parents, James and Michelle's kids called the police on October 23rd

to report the couple missing. And they emphasized to police that their parents talk to them every single day on FaceTime. So it was very concerning that they had completely cut off all communication. Yeah, you know, we always talk about how, we always talk about how it feels from the parents' point of view of when your child goes missing. But here are the kids, you know, adult kids, concern about, where's my parents?

And I think that would be tough because you, you know, you're thinking, well, my parents have the knowledge to be safe. I can't imagine them doing anything wrong to put themselves in jeopardy. So where the heck are they? Well, and it also comes down in a lot of the cases that we profile to how often people talk with their families. You know, there are some people who go missing who don't talk to their families for months at a time. That makes it a little bit harder to figure out if something is really going on with them or they just haven't heard from them. This is a much different situation. You know, when you speak to someone every day and then one day goes by, two days goes by, the concern,

you know, builds very quickly because you're breaking that routine. You know, I guarantee you if your wife's mom didn't call your wife. I don't even know if a whole day would go by before she would be worried, but definitely a few days. You guys would be looking for her at all the known locations and scouting and things like that. Oh, yeah, very quickly, because they talk all the time. There was a big storm moving towards South Texas on October 21st, which worried the family. the local police reassured them that the storm didn't affect Padre Island, but Cleburne County Sheriff's Deputy still went out to the campground in search of the

Butler's. Lieutenant Dave Ferrius was the officer in charge of the case. When he arrived at the campsite, he found nothing. It was completely empty and the butlers were nowhere to be found. The police wondered if James and Michelle decided to move on from their campsite. The family told investigators about their plans to go to Florida for work. Police contacted the Christmas tree farm and learned that James and Michelle were not there. I think this is another good reason to stay in touch with people, right? Tell people your plan.

We'll definitely help out any investigation if it's ever needed. My other thought is it would be, it must have been extremely difficult for these investigators, right? They show up at the campsite. There's nothing there. Yeah, it's all been moved. Yeah, it's not like the truck and camper there and James and Michelle are gone. So it kind of would seem like maybe they just picked up and left. Several agencies searched Padre Island, which has over 70 miles of rough beach terrain.

Nobody had seen the butlers or had contact with them. The sheriff's department reached out the news stations on October 25th to publicize the butler's photos. The U.S. Border Patrol contacted the Kleberg County Sheriff's Office on October 26th. They had a photo of the Butler's truck and camper crossing the border on October 21st. This was confirmed by the plate registration. So that's probably going to generate some questions. Yeah, absolutely. I think both on the part of law enforcement, but also the family, right? So did James and Michelle decide to kind of go off grid for kind of a vacation into Mexico without telling anyone, I could see why police would bring that up.

But I think the family was pretty quick to dismiss that because they were very insistent that, you know, they always shared their travel plans. Yeah. And I think, you know, if that's what they've always done and now all of a sudden, it looks like they might be headed somewhere in Mexico and you don't know about that? What, such a big deviation. It is, too. Investigators subpoenaed their phone records to try to track them.

They learned that Michelle's phone died at 7.12 p.m. on October 16th, three miles south of the Padre Island phone tower. James' phone died at 10.30 that morning in the same location. Lieutenant David Ferius drove to the campsite on October 27th to prepare for a search for the following day. He walked over a sand dune and saw a pile of debris. It looked to him like someone had tried to cover something up. But coyotes dug through the sand. Lieutenant Ferrius had a bad feeling about what was underneath the debris.

So he called for backup. And I could understand why he would have a bad feeling. You know, if there are coyotes digging, why in the world would they be digging in a sand dune? Yeah. And it's most likely because there's something. down there that they're trying to get to. Something that they smell. Investigators closely inspected the spot

and saw a piece of clothing. They also detected the smell of a dead body upon further inspection. It was getting dark by this point. So they brought out lights and began working to uncover what was under the sand. They found what they believed

was a woman's body. And they paused search efforts for the night. They returned in the morning and confirmed that a woman's body was buried in the sand. When they dug further, they discovered a man's body buried underneath her. Both bodies were badly decomposed

and could not be identified at that time. But authorities suspected they were James and Michelle Butler. And I think that's a pretty easy assumption to make. Yeah, I think so too. These people are missing. They cam to right by here. My other thought is it probably doesn't take a body very long to decompose. in a sand dune on South Padre Island.

All the heat. I'm assuming it's pretty warm. While the crime scene was being processed, Border Patrol called with new information. They had photos of the people who drove the Butler's vehicle into Mexico. The photos were grainy, but they could tell that the driver was not James Butler. They couldn't see the female passenger's face. But there were enough details to tell that she did. not look like Michelle, both of them had distinctive tattoo. And I get it, right? You're on the run.

You're trying to get away from authorities. You've got all these felonies that, you know, they're trying to convict you for. You make the decision that you want to get out of the country and you decide, okay, we're going to Mexico. I understand the reasoning, but, you know, we're talking not that many years ago. Think of the technology that they must have a the border, you know, photographing every license plate. They're, they've got video of, of every driver coming through. To be able to run that through a database to pick all that up is amazing or whatever that system is. Yeah, I'm sure it's pretty, uh, sophisticated. They've got to have some kind of system that, you know, looks at the license plate. It gets flagged if it's in,

you know, some type of database is as being stolen. or wanted or something like that. And then it's probably not too hard to go back and find the video that matches the timestamp from when that license plate crossed the border. On November 1st, 2019, the bodies found on the beach were identified as James and Michelle Butler. The Clebeberg County Sheriff's Office said their deaths were being investigated as homicides. authorities were still trying to locate their truck and RV trailer. On November 4th, 2019, the sheriff's office released a photo of the two persons of interest

who stole the couple's vehicle. DA John Hubert said per CBS Boston, at this point, we just don't have enough evidence to show that there even are suspects in the murder. At this point, there are just people that we want to identify and talk to for back, ground in the investigation. And I'll be honest with you, I had a little bit of trouble with that statement. Because to me, you would think whoever is driving, you know, the truck and, and the camper that belonged to James and Michelle would be considered suspects in their murder.

Yeah. Or at least, you know, would have to be ruled out as suspects. Definitely a person of interest. Oh, yeah. at the very least. A Padre Island Park Ranger saw the photos and recognized the man who was driving the truck. On October 13th, the ranger pulled over Adam Williams on Padre Island about 13 miles south where the bodies were found. He was driving a truck with a Utah license plate. The ranger gave him a citation for not wearing his seatbelt. The park ranger shared her body cam video

with the police and confirmed her identification. Authorities looked up Adam Williams and saw his lengthy criminal record. The park ranger didn't know that he was a wanted felon when she pulled him over because his name did not show up in her system. Okay, this is 2019. How is this man wanted, but not showing up when she runs him through the system? It's alarming? It is alarming.

A few days after he was pulled over, Adam's truck was found abandoned in the parking lot of a bingo hall in Corpus Christi. The business owner called a tow truck on October 19. The police spoke to Adam's family, and they provided Amanda Nover's name and background information. On November 5th, news outlets identified the person of interest as 33-year-old Adam Williams, who was now wanted in connection with the murders.

The police believed Adam stole the butler's truck and camper and drove it into Mexico. They believed that Amanda was still traveling with him. So it is pretty, you know, interesting how they kind of figured out it was Adam and Amanda. It is. Some good detective work. Yeah. Also coupled with some pretty good technology. You know, let's go back 30, 40 years earlier.

my thought is it would have been a heck of a lot tougher. I don't know what systems they had at the border at that time, but I can't imagine they were reading license plates or had any technology like that. It was reported that New Hampshire authorities also wanted Adam for questioning and Utah authorities already had an arrest warrant issued against him before he fled the state. Adam Williams and Amanda Nover were arrested on November 6, 2019. They were found in an RV park in the state of Jalisco, Mexico. A man at the RV park recognized their faces because the police sent the wanted poster

to Mexican news outlets. Additionally, Adam tried to sell the camper to the owner of the RV park. He too contacted law enforcement. So you kind of think about people heading to Mexico back in the day. They probably thought once they made it there, they were safe. And in a lot of instances, they probably won't. were. But here in 2019, heck, they're sending, you know, pictures of these people to Mexico. It's on the news over there. But, you know, people still flee to Mexico. You hear it on the news all

time, you know, that the authorities are headed to Mexico to try to locate such and such, because I don't know, maybe it's just what they feel was their best way out. Well, my assumption is it's probably a little bit easier to get lost in Mexico maybe than it would be here in the U.S. I don't know. Yeah. Or they think, you know, people aren't going to chase them into Mexico. The Kleberg County Sheriff asked his associates within the U.S. Marshals to arrest a couple.

During their time on the run, Amanda was in contact with her friend, Dylan Aller. She hinted that she wanted to leave at him. When Dylan told her, their faces were all over the news. She decided to turn herself in. She worried that Adam would kill her if she didn't. He might have. Well, when we talked about it a little bit earlier in the episode, you know, how willingly did she go along with all of this?

Or, you know, was there an element of fear that maybe she thought she had to go along with some of this or her life or her, you know, child's life would be in danger? I think this part's a little different. She's saying that she thought Adam was going to kill her at this point in time. After they had, you know, committed the murders, she asked Dylan to help her. So he called the Texas Rangers and gave them the location of the RV park and Amanda's cell phone information, which was used to track her location. Officers surprised the couple and arrested them at their campsite.

And it was said that they had both made efforts to change their appearance. Adam shaved his head and Amanda dyed her hair brown. Well, you know, you want to try to stay off the radar, but it sounds like it was a little bit too late here. Yeah, a little too late. But again, for me, just too much technology for them to just slip into Mexico without a trace. After he was arrested, Adam told the sheriff that if he hadn't been caught, he would have gone to South America and no one would have found it. And, you know, that's possible. Yeah.

There are a lot of different countries in South America. I'm assuming it would be even harder to track, you know, down through there. One law enforcement officer told to show Snap that Adam gave him chills. Another official said he believed Adam was capable of, quote, absolute terror. Just tells you how bad they thought this guy was. But I had a thought. And it was that, you know, this guy was on the run. He'd already spent time in prison.

He was facing very serious charges. To me, you know, those types of individuals are extremely dangerous. Sure. They don't want to go back. Right. So at what point do they think, well, I've got nothing to loot. I'll do whatever it takes. I'll do whatever I have to do to stay on the run.

And that's a very scary individual. it's almost like a dangerous animal backed into a corner yeah i mean they'd rather they'd rather kill somebody then go back to prison right yeah yeah well they did and they did yeah he did and Amanda was involved as well and i think the thought probably on law enforcement was that if he did this was he going to hesitate to kill again if he had to because if you're on the run and you have to finance that life on the run. Well, how are you going to do that? Maybe find another couple with a nice truck or whatever it is.

And you're going to end up hurting them. And just get on that cycle, that vicious cycle. Adams was back in the U.S. the same day he was arrested. Amanda and her three-year-old child remained in Mexico for another day. On November 8th, 2019, Adam and Amanda made separate court appearances, they were charged with felony theft for stealing the Butler's vehicle. They were expected to be charged in connection to the murders. On January 22nd, 2020, Adam and Amanda were indicted on charges of theft and tampering with

evidence. The tampering charge was linked to the burial of the bodies. They were accused of intentionally and knowingly concealing two deceased bodies of James Butler, and Michelle Butler with intent to impair its availability as evidence in any subsequent investigation of official proceeding related to the offense. And I understand these charges, but we haven't got to murder yet. And maybe it's because they were having trouble, you know, putting that together. But here's my question. Who in the world goes to the trouble of burying bodies if they didn't kill those people. Well, exactly.

Why do that? He had nothing to do with their murders. The indictment stated that the theft charge was actually related to the theft of James Butler's lawnmower, which was worth more than $30,000. Wow. That is a very expensive lawnmower. Yeah, I wasn't thinking a $30,000 lawnmower when I said, what are they doing with a lawnmower anyway?

I didn't even know there was a $30,000. thousand dollar lawnmower now i've heard of the the famous walmart lawnmower have you ever heard of that i have not so there was this guy who worked at walmart yeah and in the very beginning they were given stock right when walmart was was first starting out as a public company and this guy needed a riding lawnmower and so he sold his stock to buy a riding lawnmower and this was years and years ago when i heard about it. And it was said that that stock was worth like, I don't know how many millions of dollars. It was like the most expensive lawnmower in the history of lawnmowers. But $30,000 is a heck of a lawnmower. I mean, I shouldn't even have to get on it. It should do the whole yard by itself for that

much. I would think so, right? Man. But it's just strange, right? Because it didn't mention charges for the stolen truck and camper. According to the caller time. a Corpus Christi newspaper. The indictment also noted that a 9-millimeter pistol was in the couple's possession. DA John Hubert said at a news conference, we're not alleging at this time that Nover is a felon. We're alleging that she obviously either aided, abetted, or encouraged the theft of the firearm. Again, we are still nowhere near the murder charges.

On November 5th, 2020, it was announced that Adam Williams and Amanda Nover had been indicted for capital murder. A grand jury handed down the indictment on October 22nd, charging the couple was shooting James and Michelle Butler during a criminal transaction. Now we finally have it. The murder charges. And maybe it's just a matter of time. You know, maybe they wanted to be a little more careful in preparing their. information for the grand jury on those charges, because obviously those are the most serious charges, on June 16th, 2021, prosecutor said they would seek the death penalty for Adam Williams.

And does that surprise you at all? No, because we're in Texas. Yeah, that was my thought as well. But to be fair, this did seem like an extremely callous murder, right? you have this married couple, semi-retired, just trying to enjoy their life. And they were both killed, number one, for their possessions. Right. But then because this guy, you know, didn't want to get caught because he was already facing a bunch of charges, he was a bad guy. I mean, there's just no way around that. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, they were at the right spot at the wrong time.

Yes. I don't know if that's the same. but I understand what you're what you're getting at, but isn't that scary. I know we've talked about it before. You're not doing anything wrong. And you happen to catch the eye of a predator, someone who is looking for someone like you. Let's say maybe he has a little bit of money

or has something that they want. Or it's just your physical appearance in some cases that catches a person's eye. That's just such a scary thought to me. And then on top of that, if you're such a nice guy, you maybe don't see all that stuff that's going on and you invite them in to your campground. Well, let's be fair. Do you think that James and Michelle thought when they were talking to these people that, you know, Adam was a convicted felon and on the run for a bunch of people? more felony charges.

I don't know that most people think the worst. Or, you know, why would that even enter your mind? Right. They're just out camping like we are, you know, it's a man and a woman. They're just a couple. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Months later on November 3rd, prosecutors confirmed that Adam agreed to a plea deal. On November 10th, 2021, Adam Williams pleaded guilty.

to all counts against him in exchange for a life sentence without the possibility of parole. And we know that, you know, Texas is a death penalty state. I wonder how many times in some of these states where, you know, they do have the death penalty, they seek it in the hopes that, you know, somebody is going to plead guilty to get out from under the death penalty. Because it's not a bad move. It's not a bad move at all. It's actually kind of smart. So he pleaded guilty to capital murder,

unlawful use of a firearm, theft, and tampering with evidence. He received an additional life sentence for theft and tampering with physical evidence and 20 years for unlawful use of a firearm. Sounds like they got them stacked in there pretty good. Yeah, I think they did.

I mean, I think you have to feel pretty good about the fact that this guy's never, getting out of prison unless something gets overturned. On February 15th, 2002, Amanda Nover pleaded guilty to four felonies, first degree murder, tampering with evidence,

theft and unlawful possession of a firearm. She was sentenced to 20 years in prison, plus concurrent 10-year sentences for the other three charges. So those are vastly different sentences. They are. Now, prosecutor said their sentencing recommendations were based on the belief that Amanda purchased the murder weapon but didn't pull the trigger. However, she did facilitate the crime, helped to cover

it up, and she profited from it. She sure did. I mean, you got to hold her accountable. But was she held accountable? And I think that's a question that some people will ask. you know, Adam Williams gets multiple life sentences, no eligibility for parole. I get it. He had a brutal past and had some really nasty charges already pending against him. And it is thought that, you know, he actually pulled the trigger. Yeah, but I still think she got off light. Well, and I think there are some people who may think that.

So 20 years in prison plus 10 year sentences for. for, you know, some of these other charges, but they're concurrent. So basically you're looking at 20 years. Yeah. I mean, I don't like when the other punishment is concurrent. I think it's pointless, really. I'm always confused about how those decisions are made concurrent versus consecutive. But I kind of agree with you.

You know, when you look at it, they do seem a little pointless. Yeah, you got a sentence for it. But it's less than the big one, so it doesn't add anything. It was not like she's going to be in there longer, right? Amanda agreed to waive her right to appeal and the completion of DNA and ballistic testing. She received credit for time served as she had been in prison since November 5th, 2019. DA John Hubert said, is quoted by KIII-I-TV. We also wanted to keep her influence away from.

her small child. In 15 years, the child will be old enough to come to terms with the crimes of her parent on a better basis without having the corrosive influence of Ms. Nover. Corrosive. It's actually a very descriptive word. It is. I like it. Days later, prosecutors in Cache County, Utah dismissed their pending felony cases against Adam William. And we see this a lot, right? You know, are they, going to spend the money to prosecute this guy when he already has multiple life sentences. They're, you know, without parole. I understand why they do it. Now, you're going to have a victim and the victim's family who may or may not be okay with that decision. Now, they might be all right

knowing that this guy's never getting out and that he's going to pay for what he's done. What I don't know in some of these cases is whether they're okay that it doesn't specifically apply to the crime that he committed in Utah. Yeah. Against this person. And I would think some people may not be okay with that. I would think not too. Prosecutors chose to dismiss the charges because, again, right, he's already sentenced to life in prison in Texas. And they worried about a potential escape attempt during.

transport. And that's something that I guess I don't think about all that much. You know, if he's going to be tried in Utah, okay, well, he has to be transported then from Texas to Utah. Is there a possibility that he could escape? I guess so. We got a runner. Then you got to bring in Tommy Lee Jones and, you know, all that. Prosecutors did say that the victim in the sexual assault case agreed with the state's decision. So, You know, I think that's a good thing. Now, did they consult with this person ahead of time? Hopefully so.

And this person said, yeah, I understand where you're coming from. And maybe they didn't want to go through the truck. Because, you know, sometimes I think there's that as well. You know, having to sit there and talk about details that are not going to be easy to relit in a courtroom in front of some strangers and your family. there might in a lot of instances be a sense of relief. Yeah. That the person doesn't have to do that. And they still know that this person's never getting out.

So there could be something, you know, to that as well. Amanda Nover will become eligible for parole in November 2009. And her projected release date is in November, 2013. Man, that 29 is not that far away. No, it's just a little over five years away. And again, this case is not that old. So she got 20. If I'm doing my math correctly, that means she comes up for parole after 10 years.

If she got out after 10 years, you know, would that be a just sentence? And I think there was a lot of people who would look at it and say, no, I don't think it would be. I don't think so either. James and Michelle Butler, you know, they were just living out their lifelong dream. of traveling the country when they encountered two people who were willing to kill them for their own selfish motives. Gride, man. Greed. Yeah, greed, selfishness. I don't know how else to look at it. Amanda Nover, you know, she did the right thing by turning herself in. And she did help, right, authorities capture Adam Williams. But Adam Williams has shown that he is an extremely dangerous person who will

kill anyone who gets in his way, I think it's pretty safe to say that if he had not been caught, it's very possible that he would have committed more murders. No, I agree with you. I actually think he most likely would have. Now, the question I have is would Amanda have been there and participated in the murders as well? Yeah, I just don't know. You know, I think part of me kind of thinks, that she was trying to change. And maybe get away from him. Yeah.

And I do want to be fair to her, which is kind of hard to say because she was involved in murders. But, you know, we talked about physical abuse early on against her at the hands of Adam Williams. So I didn't really see where she came out and said it, but is it possible that she felt trapped and that she had no other choice but to go along with it. You know, I don't know that to be the case, but I don't want to dismiss it out of hand. There's really only two options, though, for me.

Either she loved this guy so much that she was willing to help commit murder with him. Right. To, to stay with him on the run. Or she was so trapped that she couldn't help but be involved. Now my thought is that would have been some type of defense brought up at trial. I just didn't really see much about it. And maybe it was. And maybe that was part of the sentencing and-

Could have been, yeah. And all of that. Again, you have a person or persons who feel as though they have nothing to lose when it comes to committing serious crime. Yeah. Because, you know, in Adams case, he was already facing very serious charges. So he was going to go away for a very long time if convicted. He did not want to do that.

I'm sure he didn't want to do that. So in his mind, I'm assuming he was thinking, what's the worst that's going to happen to me if I kill these people? Yeah. I'm still going to prison. I might go to prison for longer, but I don't want to go anyway.

So I'll do everything I can not to go. Yep. But that's it for our episode on Amanda Nover and Adam, Williams. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, this is Anastasia from Georgia, and I just watched the Jeffrey Dahmer episode, and I find it really interesting to see that. And I have done so many searched on some people from Georgia, where I'm from, some serial colors. I was wondering to do those, like the Atlanta blipper I've heard of, and I just think it would be a really nice episode or a show episode, so we'll be able to go to you guys.

Thanks, Anastasia. Yeah, that's a great suggestion. If I remember correctly, I think that's an unsolved case. So we'd have to do that unonsolved, but definitely take a look at it. So I listen to you guys all the time. My name's Victoria Cooper, and I'm from Ontario and Canada. I'm absolutely dying at myself because you're talking about, I want to say, Larry in your last episode, and you say like, he's a this, he's a dad, he's a lone shark, he's a and I'm like wow I thought they always said lone wolf what like a loan shark like what

I'm literally standing at work I should be leaving because I'm done but I'm just laughing so hard at myself that I didn't make the connection of like loan like like loan shark like money like the regular phrase that people say and I was trying to figure out why you didn't say lone wolf Anyways, absolutely love you guys. You've gotten me through so much. Listen to you since, like, I want to say 2016-ish. And I just, oh, huge fan, huge fan. I look forward to everything you guys do.

So stay safe. Keep your own time ticking and keep your head on a swivel. You know what's good, man? When you can laugh at yourself. It is. Yeah. And she really had a good laugh about it. She did.

We heard some of it. Yeah. Yeah. And I love it when people call in and kind of tell on themselves. Oh, yeah. Because obviously we make tons of mistakes. Or you would say I do. Yeah, you do.

And you're perfect. You said it, not me. No, I'm saying that's what you said. No, I heard it differently. But when everything's said and done, we all make mistakes, right? So I love it when people call in and admit to stuff that they don't have to admit to. Yeah. But get a kick out of it because, you know, we're called on on our mistakes.

And rightfully so. I make some really baffling errors. All the time. And very frequently. Some of the things that I say. Too much. You seem to know every movie ever made, the plot who's in it. I am so good.

You're like an older young Sheldon. I am that. Or just Sheldon. Yeah, just that. Yeah. All right, buddy. We did have mailbag. We did this week. Cat tracks sent in some Harley chips and some really cool ones. One was from Copenhagen. Yeah. And the other one was a really cool one from Pearl Harbor. Oh, from Pearl Harbor. Yeah. So actually really two that I definitely did not have. Yeah. That's cool. And then Ashton Ferguson sent us in a college graduation card, which was pretty cool. The best part about it for me was that, inside the envelope was written on just a little scrap of paper. Yeah. Hashtag team Gibby.

Love it. And I thought, your last name is actually Ferguson. If anything, if anyone should be Team Fergie. It's, it's her. I can't even get the Ferguson's on my side. What does I tell you? That you're very, you're very beloved, which I'm totally cool. Or do you think I sent that card?

I doubt it. It was a real card. It had her picture on it and everything. But if you did, you went through a lot of trouble to make that happen. Is the graduation nearby? Maybe I'll make it appearance. No, I think it's only like a state away, though. I don't want to say where it is.

Just, you know, to kind of keep her privacy. Yeah. She wasn't inviting us, I don't think. She was just, you know, sending us in an announcement. We've been invited to. to a number of weddings, birthday parties. I'm ready to show up now.

We never show up. Not that we we don't love everyone. It's just... It's hard to do. I'm not driving multiple states. With me in the car with you? With you in the car to go to somebody's birthday party.

Hey, what's this toy down here? Have you ever looked at it? That's my dog's bone. Squeaky bone. It looks like a weird... It doesn't look like a squeakly. It looks like. It looks like a squeaky dog bone toy is exactly what it looks like.

And that's what it is. It looks, strangely resembles something else. Okay. Yeah. I don't see it, but maybe it's because I see it every day. I'm looking from the top down.

And it looks like it's a cart carrying a, let's just say, like an Oscar Meyer. Weiner? Yeah. Okay. Why does the Oscar? Meyer I'm not seeing it man

I don't know on that note we are going to end this episode sometimes I say too much so that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for Mike and givey stay safe

and keep your own time ticking