True Crime All The Time - Andre Thomas

Episode Date: July 22, 2019

Andre Thomas grew up in a religious household. Various members of his family described hearing voices that they believed were God. Andre began hearing voices as well. In March of 2004, Andre claims that these voices told him he had to murder his estranged wife, the son they had together, and his wife's daughter. The details are incredibly horrific. But, after he was incarcerated, Andre continued the carnage; on himself. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Andre Thomas. This is a man that many believe was suffering from some very serious mental health issues. These manifested themselves early in Andre's life but he never got the treatment that he needed. Doctors would later cast doubt on whether these issues caused Andre to commit his murders or if instead, they were a result of his substance abuse. One thing is not in doubt. These were extremely graphic and tragic murders.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 140 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Man, I'm doing good, man. Man, I'm glad to hear it. 140, huh? Yeah. That is so unbelievable. It seems like literally yesterday you and I were working on 100. Yeah. Wow. And now we're saying, 140. It just goes by so fast. I can go back to episode one, man. So 140. Yeah, I can remember doing that one. Yeah. To be honest with you. That's great. No, it is. It is. I just saw you a couple days ago. I just got back from Chicago. It's like too soon. Yeah, it was fun. Chicago was a good time. Yeah. It was a one day thing. And for me, you know, I left Saturday. Right. I stayed over.

You stayed over. So, you know, driving into Chicago, which for us is what, five and a half hours, give or take. Yeah, five hours. Five, five and a half. Driving in Friday, spending all day talking to folks, which was awesome. We met a lot of great people. Yeah, we did. Met a lot of great podcasters.

Yeah. There was a lot of true crime podcasters. Some of them very small just starting out, which was very cool. Yeah, it really was. But then driving back the next day, it just wore me out, man. Sunday and Monday, I was just. host. Yeah, it was a, the drive home for me was longer than the drive there, traffic and all that.

Yeah. But that's all right. Yeah, I like Chicago a lot. Yeah, it's a good town. It's a cool city. A lot of people, you know, a lot of our listeners live in Chicago or just right around, you know, in the suburbs. So they were able to come in. Now, they don't have to drive in.

That's the good thing for them. No, they take the, what, the train or something? Yeah, take the train. And for me, driving in Chicago is brutal. Yeah, that whole, once you're downtown. man it's uh i'd rather just park and walk well you know why everybody parks at a train somewhere you know and and takes that in because it's just it's not worth it no avoid that right so we had some new patreon supporters let's do some shoutouts we had kelly gustafsson hey kelly andrew unkifer jumped

down to our highest level what's up uncleford he joins many unkifers we've got the whole unkifer clan i'm pretty sure i get the uncle for out of here crystal lang hey Krista. Melissa. What's up, Melissa? Sean. Sean. Penny Shikoski.

Ooh, Shikovsky. Gabrielle Munger. What's going on, Gabrie? Sarah Kamen jumped out at our highest level. Thanks, Sarah. Kristen Lewis. Thanks, Kristen. Molly Hildebrand.

What's up, Molly? Tiffany. Hey, Tiffany. Riley Einen. Ooh, Eileen. Emily Riggleman. Hey, Kristen Mansfield. Hey, Kristen.

Penny Wilson. Penny Wilson. Penny. Anthony Serrato. Sarato. Narita. Nerisha Reynolds jumped out of our highest level. What's going on, Nerissa.

Cassie Louise Media. Ooh, KLM. Ann Santos. Or C-LM, actually. Elaine Hindle. Thanks, Elaine. Actually, you know what? I would have went just by that.

If you hadn't said anything? Yeah. I don't think I'd have caught it. I don't know. But you called yourself out, and you should be applauded for that. Thank you. Tammy. Hey, Tammy.

Stephanie Hinkle. Hey, Stephanie. And Joseph Sutton. What's up, Joseph? So we appreciate that. A lot of great new support. If we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Ashley.

Slokie. Eslucky. So been with us a long time. Yeah. Thank you. Longtime listener, long time supporter. We love that.

We do. We had some great PayPal support as well. All right. Paranormal XL podcast. Extra long. Extra length. Extra large. Extra large.

Which is usually what Excel stands for. I'll just never know. You never know. There you go. Shaila Green. Hey, Shaila. Gerald Jensen. Hey.

Nancy. Hey, Nancy. And Kate Ballsover. Hey, Nancy Brooks. I haven't seen her name in a while. Yeah, that's great to see her. Yeah, I'm glad everything is going well. All right, Gibbs.

So on True Crime All Time Unsolved, we have a very good episode out right now. It's on the Robeson family murders, also known as the Good Heart murders. We're going back to 1968, but this episode is about an entire family, you know, six members of a family who were murdered at their vacation home near Goodhart, Michigan. But I think to me, what makes this case so fascinating is it's about as far away from an unsolved case as you can get towards the solved side of things without it actually being classified as solved. You know, it's just one of those where police have a suspect and they've had this suspect for a very long time. most people believe this person was responsible. Now, whether responsible alone or with others,

that's a question, but something happened. Sure. Right. You know, during this timeline to make it impossible for them to go after this person. So you got to listen to find out all the details.

But it is a good episode. We had a monthly Patreon winner, speaking of Patreon, that was Lady Die. Lady Die. Lady Die. Already picked out what she wants. then it's on order. We'll be heading out her way. That's awesome. So, yep, appreciate that.

Now, as we get into this TCAT episode, writing and research credit goes out to Lana Hyatt. Yeah. So we appreciate that. We sure do. All right, Gibbs, are you ready? I'm ready. Well, I hope you are, because I want to say this right up front. This is an extremely gruesome case we're covering today. And I think that's saying something, because you and I have covered some that are, you know, you know, very violent, vicious. The facts are stomach turning. But this one, it's up there. So, you know, put on your helmet, buckle your chin strap, put on your extra large Thanksgiving

pants if you have to. I just ate dinner, by the way. For extra room. Whatever you have to do. But I'm telling you, this flight is going to be bumpy in spots. So in this episode, we're talking about Andre Thomas. And the murders that. Andre committed, they're bad.

The details are bad. But then the things that this guy did in prison will make your stomach turn. So for him, it doesn't end, right? After he's convicted and sent to prison, he's going for the gore factor once he gets in there. It's a continuous show, man. So Andre Lee Thomas was born March 17, 1983 in Sherman, Texas to Rochelle and Danny Thomas. Not the same Danny Thomas that you're thinking of. I was wondering.

No. This is a different Danny Thomas. All right. Andre had three older brothers and then later two younger brothers came along. So that's six kids. Pretty large family. Yeah. But it's six boys.

I cannot even fathom Gibbs what that grocery bill is like. Yeah, I can't imagine either, man. I mean, I grew up three boys and boys. my house, right? You guys were probably eating everything. We did, man. Mom was always going to the grocery store. Now, I have two girls. They don't eat that much, but I swear we still spend a fortune on food. My girls have that champagne taste on, and we have a beer budget, so it makes it tough. We go out, my daughter's like, can I get the filet and lobster? And I'm like, no, you can not. As you order it. And she's been saying that since the time she was like 10. Well, that's all right.

right though that's all she wants man she's got hey she's she's got good taste she has expensive taste let's put it that way i like a good burger though man well you're a cheap date i love going out with you yeah i'll even pick up your tab because you're a burger fry beer guy and you did in chicago so i did yeah because you don't put on airs you don't have to order the most expensive thing you're down to earth gibby i am just give me something good to eat so back to this Thomas family, you know, they weren't well off. So it couldn't have been easy. And I know it wasn't to make ends meet. Not only did they have a hard time finding the money for food, Gibbs, there were times where they didn't have water, they didn't have heat, they didn't have electricity.

At that point, you're basically camping if you don't have all of those things. And you're scrounging for food. You went camping and you didn't bring any food with you. That's not good, man. I think in large part because of this, Andre and his siblings, they spent a lot of their time at church. I do think that it was a church-going family, but I think they spent more time there just because they didn't have anything at home. You know, at one point, church members saw the mother, Rochelle getting water from the outside faucet at the church. And I think this is when they realized how bad this family was struggling.

And it was at that point that the church banned. ended together to help provide for the family, right? That's what a, that's what a church does when one of their members is struggling. They kind of come together. Yeah. At least that's what I've been told. That's what they do. It's the beauty of it, man. So they're struggling economically. But family life in the household, it was rough in other ways. The father, Danny, he abused drugs and alcohol, had some run-ins with the law. There was a report of a time when the kids were little that Danny came home drunk, grabbed his gun and yelled the word kill.

And then he just fired a bullet upstairs where his six boys were sleeping. Luckily, no one was hurt, but you're not winning father of the year awards by firing bullets, you know, upstairs into a crowded area. No, that's not good. Where your kids are.

What's next? Like Russian roulette. Hey, kids, I sit around the table. God's got a fun game to play. Yeah. You're not winning father of the year. And really, it was this incident, I believe, that caused Rochelle to say, you know what, I've had enough. You know, you're an alcoholic, you're drinking.

Now you're endangering my kids. So this was around the time when Andre was six years old. His parents split up. But in looking at the court records, they didn't divorce until 2005. That is a long time. It is a long time. So they split up around 1989 or so, didn't divorce until 2005. Hung out for a while.

Unfortunately, Andre's mother, Rochelle, she wasn't the most stable person either. She believed that she received special messages from God. And this was something that apparently Andre's grandmother also believed that she too received special messages from God. Really? Yeah. So probably the two most influential women in his life walked around saying that they were receiving these special messages.

Kind of like that movie. Remember that movie with, um, uh, it was called Weird Science? Do I remember that movie? Yes, that was one of the seminal movies of my childhood. Now, what part of it did somebody receive messages from God? Remember they put the, uh, Val Kilmer in it, right? No, you're talking about real genius. Real genius.

That was another seminal movie of my childhood. That's the one I was talking about. Yeah. Where they made that one scientist guy think he was hearing voices. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was perfect. It was perfect other than you're in the right ballpark probably time frame-wise.

I don't know how many years apart they were. Two completely different movies. Yeah, I remember both of them now. Both great. Yeah, both good. I loved them both. Yeah. But yeah, that was really funny how they did that.

Put that little thing in his own. mouth so he thought he heard messages from God. But these women really believed it and didn't have, you know, Dugie Hauser like people putting stuff to mess with them. They honestly believed it. And because of these messages, Rochelle barely worked. So again, not able to provide for the family. And this wasn't a behavior that lasted for like a year or two. It continued. And she upset. over these messages and thought that, like you can imagine Gibbs, they're coming from God. I have to do what he says. I have to do, you know, whatever it is these messages are telling me to do.

There are also reports that she would walk around the house nude. Oh, why wouldn't you? Yeah. Has six boys and is walking around the house nude. I guess they begged her to get dressed and she refused. I guess there's at some point in time that you should not walk naked around your kids. Well, I mean, what's worse than your mother walking around in the buff when you've got your friends over? You know, you're hanging out. You're playing Nintendo or something. And your mom walks in nude saying, hey, boys, what's going on?

Yeah. Your friends are like, hey, dude, your mom's nude. Did you know your mom don't have no clothes on? Yeah. Did you, does your mom walk around like this all the time? Right. It's not normal. At least in my experience growing up. Yeah. It was not normal for me to be at a friend's house playing video games. eating bagel bites to have their moms walk in nude. That would not be normal. We're sitting around the dinner table passing the mashed potatoes. That's true. That's just dangerous.

Yeah. Might get some hot gravy fall on you. They're asking for problems there, man. There was another time that Rochelle told Andre that she wished she had aborted him. That's nice to say. Hey, that makes you feel good. Happy birthday. By the way, I wish I would abort you.

So not a great place to grow up. up is what I'm getting from this. But what's amazing about it Gibbs is Andre didn't struggle at school at all, right? None of these struggles at home transferred over to his school life. He was described as friends as being eager to talk about Bible stories that he learned in church. Fellow classmates said that this was the kind of kid that was the first one to put his hand in the air to answer the teacher's question. They go, Horshack. Mr. Cata.

Mr. Cata. I know. That's a good one. And you got the name right, too. Horshack. Remember that movie? Weird Science? A friend of Andres later came out and said, he was a very respectful kid.

He was a sweet kid. And he didn't complain. Like, he didn't go to school saying, you know what, man, we got no electricity. I don't even have food to eat. My mom walks around naked. Nope. That's not what he did. And he liked school.

He liked learning. He called. questioned, right? He was inquisitive. He was also a tinkerer. He once took a, like a beat-up old fiat that his dad bought and he put it back together. He didn't know how, I mean, it's not like he went to a trade school to learn to be a mechanic. That's kind of impressive. I was a tinkler. I know, you were a tinkler. I said he was a tinker, tinkerer. I didn't even get it out. Meanwhile, I can't figure out how to put together a damn bookshelf that my wife bought. And it has an instruction booklet. Yeah. And you're like, why is these two screws left? I always have three or four

extra screws, man. And I know they're supposed to go somewhere. Well, they haven't fallen down yet. Yeah. So while he was in school, he would draw. And he drew these very intricate drawings of futuristic cars. And he would tell his classmates that that's what he was going to do. Someday he was going to design cars. He was a dreamer. And he got good grades, right? He really did excel at school. And that's not something you and I talk about a lot. You don't hear us saying that about a lot of the people that we talk about, right? Most of the time, they don't care about school. They're not good at school. They've got low IQs. Well, they can't have the type of scores that somebody you know is accustomed to. No. I mean, and Andre wasn't as smart as you, right? I think

ultimately his IQ is going to be pegged at like 114, somewhere in that area. So he's not in Mensa. No, so far. He's not Gibby, but he likes school. He was smart. You know, I designed some pretty cool looking cars, too. So I'm just saying you just want that out there. Yeah.

Didn't you design that Ford Fiesta back in the day? I could draw a really nice Ford Fiesta, make everybody out there proud. But there's always that point, right, in every episode. And we should come up with the term for it. I don't know what it is where any killer's life, It's almost like where the light switch flips. I don't want to use that term. There's got to be a better term that we can come up with.

For Andre Thomas, this was around age nine or 10. And he began to tell classmates that he was having voices. He was hearing voices in his head. He said he could hear angels and demons arguing with each other. Sometimes in school, he would shout at the demons. Or you could see it on his face. He was reacting to something that was going on in his head. So I said this kid liked school.

He was good at school. He was, but it was for a short period of time, right? By the age of nine or ten, he was starting to have problem. It's kind of strange, though. They start hearing voices. Yeah.

Because you're getting into the area of like possible schizophrenia. Yeah. Maybe he had that. Maybe his mother and grandmother all had that. I did read some things online. though it said it's very uncommon for children under the age of 12 to develop schizophrenia. It's something that normally, I believe, develops later in life. And I'm no doctor, but it seems to me as though some of this behavior falls somewhere along that path.

Yeah. So you have Andre displaying this type of behavior. We already talked about his mother and grandmother. There was also some information that some of his brothers displayed somewhat similar behavior. So it was like most of the people in this family. Sounds like something in the family's running around, man. You know, I don't know if it's more believe it and see what maybe modeling. Yeah. After what other.

I don't know. But I do think, and obviously we're going to be talking about this as the episode goes on, I think this is a family that dealt with a lot of mental health issues. So in an attempt to drown out the voices, Andre did, you know, one of the worst things you can do. He started drinking at a very young age, but he's not getting any help. And we're going to talk about this throughout. He never gets any help, really. And a lot of the people that we talk about don't, right?

They're displaying signs. And it's not like their parents are taking them somewhere to get them assessed or checked out to get them help. this family can't even put food on the table they're not going to a mental health professional it's just not going to happen no they're not to deal with what's going on in their lives by themselves they don't have the money no and maybe there was other options i don't know where they could get some free help but whatever it was it didn't happen well they're not tapping those resources yeah even if those resources existed they didn't tap into them and it was while he was still in elementary that Andre cut his wrist for the first time.

And this would be just the first of what would be many attempts by Andre to take his own life. Well, I think his whole world has shifted. Oh, and I'm telling you, it's really like this line in the sand. It seems to be age 9, 10 is when everything changed for him. He stopped going to church all the time like he had been. People said it was like he was just in his own. world. By age 13, he was smoking marijuana. And again, he tried to take his own life at age 13 again. Yeah, by saw one at his wrist with a butcher knife. With a butcher knife.

Brutal. He survived. But, you know, there's no doubt. Just from the things we've talked about so far at age 13, this kid needed a ton of help. And he didn't get it. He's not going to get it. It's just not going to happen. Right. By 15. That's really when his legal troubles started. He had a string of arrest, including car theft. He was put in a juvenile detention center. They had to put him on suicide watch because he kept threatening to harm himself. But here's the kicker. They released him two days later.

No psychological counseling. Even though he told them he wanted to kill himself. That's shocking. It is shocking. Because they should have got him in front of some type of therapist. You would think. Kids are only 15 years old. And he's talking about.

wanting to hurt himself, I agree with it. You would think he would have been given some type of counseling. Eventually, you know, when he's out on probation, he was evaluated by a therapist and probably because he's on probation. This therapist concluded that Andre had quote, disturbed personality characteristics, irrational, poor judgment, perception distortions, feelings of unreality and anxiety. So I'm not sure that that's a diagnosis, but it's a whole bunch of things that probably are not working in his favor. That's kind of like what you did with your hot dog in Chicago. You kind of ran it through the kitchen sink.

I ran it through the garden, man. That's what they call it. That's what sounds like they did with his diagnosis. So this kid is still very young, right? 14, 15 years old. He's going through a lot of stuff. But even through all this, he managed to fall in love with a girl named Laura Boren. And they were close in age.

I think she was 14. He might have been 15. But very quickly, Laura became pregnant. And Andre made the decision that he wasn't going to be a deadbeat father. Maybe it's because he witnessed his own father, you know, be kind of a deadbeat guy. Then he decided he wasn't going to do that. Whatever the case, he dropped out of school in the ninth grade. And he started working full time.

He worked at Burger King. He worked at Red Lobster. I mean, very tough, I would think, to have and raise a child, 14, 15 years old, working full time, making minimum wage. That would be very tough. That would be, you mean, you're struggling all the time. Well, first of all, you're very young. You don't really have the life skills. Yeah.

You don't have the experience. You don't, it's going to be tough. It's going to be really tough. I mean, don't get me wrong. It can be done. Oh, it can be done. A lot of people have done it. More so if you have the right support around you.

My thing is, though, I think a lot of people have done it. How many people do it at age 14, 15? To me, that's the, it's not working at Burger King and raising a family. People do that. To me, it's trying to do it all at 14, 15 years old. I just think that is extremely tough. Yeah. But what's interesting about.

this relationship. Laura's parents later talked about, you know, how much they loved Andre. They said he was charming. Now, Laura's father said, quote, he was extremely good at presenting his best side. I've known quite a few people like that, that when you're around them, you get the best version of them. But their spouse or their significant other or whatever sees the real them and maybe it's not so great. Yeah. So Andre and Laura had a son and they named him Andre Jr. They also gave him the nickname juicy. Juicy. Juicy contour. Juicy coter. No, I don't think that's what it was. I used to wear the sweatpants. No, I did not. That said juicy on the rear end? You used to. No, I did not. warm all the time. Can you imagine me wearing sweatpants that said juicy on the ass? I don't have to imagine. I don't seen it. Believe me, it was disturbing enough.

So for the first few years, the relationship between Andre and Laura, it worked out. Worked out pretty good. I think they had some support, Gibbs, and you kind of talked about needing some support. I think they had it from Laura's family. I don't think he was getting much from his family. We know that. But it was going so well that. In March of 2001, Andre was 18 years old and they married. He and Laura got married. In the beginning, it was pretty good. Most marriages started out pretty good.

Many of them hit a rocky patch. And this one did. But this rough patch came pretty quickly. It's about four months into the marriage. Now, keep in mind, they've been together for like three years. It's about once you make it official. Yeah. You have a piece of paper, tie that knot.

Sometimes things just go a little different. Well, they broke up. They broke up after four months. They separated. But they didn't divorce. I think this was a major trigger for Andre in his life. It was at this point. His behavior became increasingly erratic.

And the voices in his head became louder and louder. It was said that he started to become obsessed with the book of revelation in the Bible. It was also said that he would duct tape his mouth shut. for days at a time. I have no idea why. Maybe so he didn't scream back at the voices in his head. Interesting. Because there was talk about a lot of screaming at no one in particular, no one in the room.

See, people have many uses for it. I use it for something different than that, but there's many uses for a good duct tape. Through all of this, what you'd have to call erratic, strange behavior, Laura's family continued to love and support this guy. He was the father of their grandchild. They considered him to be family. Now, Laura, she's working, right? She's trying to support herself.

She's trying to support her son. Andre was going the other way. He was becoming increasingly unstable. He once assaulted a man that he accused of sleeping with Laura. And it was during this time frame, 2001, 2002, you know, after the breakup, he started to get in trouble with the law. I mean constantly. The rap sheet for this guy in those two years, it is stuffed with things. Now, they're fairly minor, but it's a long rap sheet for a two-year period.

Yeah. And it culminated with him going to jail for about three months in 2002. Laura moved on. And eventually she moved in with another man named Bryant Hughes. In 2003, they had a daughter, Leah Marie Hughes. But I think the thing that never changed for Andre was that he was fixated on Laura. I don't get you back, baby. He never moved on.

She moved on. He didn't. That's the moving on part's very difficult for a lot of people. For some people it is. The problem with Andre is not that he's having trouble moving on. He's fixated with this woman. That's a problem too. In 2004, Andre shifted his focus.

He was smoking a lot of pot. He was drinking. He switched it over to taking cold medicine. Really? Yeah. Specifically, it was said it was Corcyden. Corticine. I don't even know if they still make that one.

Yeah, they still make that one. Do they? Yeah, it's one that you're supposed to take if you have certain heart issues. Mm. Now we're getting information from Dr. Gibby. Yeah, it's WebMD, man. Instead of WebMD, it's WebMG. Or WebGibby.

Or WebGibby. Ooh. That would have been better. WebGibby. But I'm assuming it's one of those that they probably put behind the counter now. It used to just be able to walk in and get cold medicine. Yeah. Why them did the good old days, man?

People started making meth with it. You know? Now you got to ask somebody behind the counter. Yeah. Prove that you got to call. I mean, you got to do all kinds of things. I mean, the other day, you went in and they get some laxatives and they gave you a hard time. They did.

Yeah. Because people are making something with that. Something about with that too. Yeah. So this guy's not sick, right? Andre's not sick. he's taking this to get high, he started talking to people about deja vu. He was always having deja vu. You ever have deja vu? I have a daydh. Didn't we just talk about this? No. Oh, I thought we did.

I do have deja vu from time to time, very infrequently. Yeah. But it always freaks me out when I have it. I get that when the check comes when we're out and it's on the pay the bill. The bill comes in. I felt like I already paid it. And so you just get up and leave? Yeah. And whoever's left has to take I think that's where the problem comes in. I've been, yeah, I've been the recipient. The recipient of being on that end of the bill. So, you know, it's the deja vu. My bad.

So 20 days before these murders that we're getting ready to talk about, Andre tried to take his life by taking a bunch of this core sedan and other medications. He didn't die. He was taken to a local facility. But again, didn't get treatment. And this time, I think the guy could have. I think he left and said, you know what, I don't need it. And then just days before the murders, he drank a bunch of vodka, took a bunch of these

coarse seed and tablets, and he stabbed himself. Oh. This guy's not doing well. No. His mom took him to the hospital this time. But again, it's like a broken record. He left this facility without getting a drop of treatment. You wonder why he does what he does.

Yeah, I mean, again, I cannot stress enough the importance of the fact that he never really received any type of treatment. And we know he needs it just by talking through the things that we've talked about. Now, it could have been that he didn't want it. It could have been that he refused it. But the key is he didn't get it. That's the bottom line. March 26, 2004. This is the night before the murders.

Andre was actually hanging out with Laura and her boyfriend Bryant. A little love triangle thing or... Yeah, they're hanging out in, I think, their apartment. I just found it odd. Yeah. Third wheel. Third wheel. But that...

But a weird third wheel. Well, yeah, strange third wheel because he's the X. But what happened as they're sitting, you know, in the apartment, Andre sees Bryant with this extension cord. And I guess, you know, like something went off in his head. And he started to believe that Bryant was going to kill Laura. So he goes into the kitchen and he gets a knife. He's got to have this knife because in his head he has to kill this boyfriend, Bryant,

before he kills Laura. He's hearing voices. And he would later say that these voices are telling him that Laura's a slut. The children were the Antichrist. I mean, these are some very strange voices. Very strange. But according to him, the voices are saying the only way to cure Laura and the kids is to kill them, to release the demons from their soul. But he doesn't kill them that night.

Something stopped him. And I guess he decided that it wasn't the right time. And it was around 10 p.m. Bryant drove him home, which again, I also think is strange. The boyfriend is driving the ex home. I don't know. Maybe I haven't been in many of those situations, but I find it strange. A little bit.

So this is where I think Gibbs we have to give another warning. And we set it up front. What we're about ready to talk about is not for the faint of heart. I can't, I can't stress it enough. You and I've covered a lot of gory, gruesome cases. I'm telling people right now, you will want to finish up your ahituna before moving on with this episode. Why ahit tuna?

I don't know. That's just what I thought of. That actually sounds good. I really like Ahituna. Do you like Ahi tuna with a little wasabi? Yeah, rare Ahitun. Yeah. Very good. Okay. All right. So we're going. It's the next morning. March 27th, 2004, Andre woke up that morning. And according to him, heard God's voice telling him that he had to kill Laura and the kids. And I say kids, right? We talked about it. Andre had a child with Laura, but so did Brian. So she has two children. He arrived at Laura's third floor apartment early that morning. It was an apartment that she shared with with her boyfriend, Bryant.

With him, he has three knives, one for each victim. So this is very, very premeditated. This wasn't like showed up. He brought a knife for each of the victims that he was planning to kill. And it goes back to what he's hearing, these voices that he's hearing in his head, they're telling him that each person had to be killed with a separate knife. I was just getting ready to ask, why would you need three separate knives to do that job? And I think that's a very good question. Most people would not. You only need one knife for everything. That's all I need. The voices are saying you have to have three separate knives because there can't be any cross-contamination of, you know, you're going to be. the blood.

Okay. This is what he's hearing in his head, according to him, right? This is all according to him. So why is this cross-contamination of blood so important? Well, the voices are telling him that any cross-contamination of the blood of these victims that he's about ready to kill, it would allow the demons that they have inside them to stay there. It's the only way to release the demons.

So he kicked in the door. And he saw Laura first. This is early. This is about 7.20 a.m. Bryant had left for work and apparently saw Andre wave to Andre as he was headed towards the apartment. So Andre, you know, kicks in, stormed Laura with a knife and stabbed her. But then he started carving her chest. Oh, man.

And he reached in and took out what he believed was her heart. Now, it wasn't. It turned out to be a piece of her lung. but he put it in his pocket. I don't know why he put it in his pocket, but he did. Next, he went into the bedroom where the children slept. With the second knife, he stabbed his son, four-year-old Andre Jr., to death, four years old.

And again, he carved into his chest to allow him to reach in and pull out his heart. Brutal, man. This is, I'm telling you, I told you up front. Grusome, brutal. Whatever you word you want to use. It's brutal to anybody, but yet you're doing it to your own. If your four-year-old son, he put his heart into his pocket.

That's two hearts in his pocket? Well, one heart and a lung. He thought he was grabbing his wife's or Laura's heart. Right. But he ended up getting a piece of her lung. What's next, I think, is even worse. Because he goes to 13-month-old Leah, the child that, Laura and Bryant had together and does the same exact thing, ultimately pulling out her heart

and putting it in his pocket. So he's killed all three of these people, Laura, his own son, and this 13-month-old that she had with her current boyfriend, what Andre did next was he stabbed himself three times in the chest. I think that would be hard to do. It would be very hard to do. He laid down on the floor and he waited. I think he thought he was going to die. Bizarre? Well, this is a guy that had tried to kill himself a number of times. So my assumption is he's murdered these three people.

Now he's going to take his own life. The thing is he didn't die. He laid there for a while and he didn't die. So he got up and he left. Then he walked more than five miles to his dad's house, which is amazing if you. think about it. It is amazing. You've stabbed yourself in the chest repeatedly with a knife to the point where you thought you were going to lay down and die. You didn't die. So you got up and you

walked five miles. I don't know if I can walk five miles now. I know you can't walk five miles now. I appreciate that support, but I think you're right. Keeping it real. Now, I've seen some varying reports on what he did with the hearts. There are some reports that said, you know, he put him in a paper bag and threw them away. There's some reports that said the cops found the two hearts later at his house. And apparently he wanted to call Laura on the phone. But he had just killed Laura. So instead, he called her parents and he left the following voicemail.

Um, Sherry, this is Andre. I need y'all's help. Something bad is happening to me and it keeps happening. And I don't know what's going on. I need some help. I think I'm in hell. I need help. Somebody needs to come and help me.

I need help bad. I'm desperate. I'm afraid to go to sleep. So when you get this message, come by the house, please. Hello? He asked that as a question at the end. Yeah. Something's really going on there.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's there should be any doubt in anybody's mind that this is a man that has a lot going on. and to me a lot in the way of mental health issues. So he leaves his voicemail. Then he heads to his trailer. And there's a couple people at his trailer. His girlfriend is there.

His cousin is there. And he admits to his girlfriend what he had done. The fact that he killed Laura. He killed these two kids. And his girlfriend takes him to the police station. So I want to put all this in perspective, Gibbs. It's around 9.30 a.m. A whole day has not gone by.

He has done all of this in like the span of two hours. Very quickly. Yeah. Killed three people, walked five miles, made the call, went back to his house, got to the police station. Yeah. It's still only 9.30 in the morning. You're not even up by then. Barely.

Yeah. So when he got to the police station, he didn't mess around. He confessed to the murders, told them exactly what he had done. And the police description of this guy. It's like almost as if he was falling asleep as he was telling the story. I mean, most people would be either be sobbing or they'd be afraid or whatever. They called him lethargic, said he was extremely calm and he just laid it all out. The reasons why, what he did, how he did it, all of that.

Nonchalant put it out. No, wasn't nervous, wasn't freaking out. Now, the one thing he did ask the police apparently was whether or not. he would be forgiven for the murders since he stabbed himself. He thought maybe that would help lessen the blow against him or something? Yeah, so just so I don't get a whole lot of trouble, officer, I decided to stab myself, too. I should count for something. So we're good, right?

In his head, I believe he thought that would count for something. Can I just go home now? Well, you just picture, you know, a dumbfounded police officer listening to this. saying, no, that is not how that works. But Andre did have some serious injuries, right? He had stabbed himself three times. He needed medical attention. They took into the hospital. He underwent some emergency surgery. I mean, some of his injuries, they said were life-threatening, you know, if they didn't get attended to. After the surgery, he was transferred to the Grayson County Jail. And it was on March 19th that police videotaped his confession.

And again, he went into it all, said that God told him that he wanted Andre to kill his wife and the two children. Described everything in detail. That occurred that day. Yeah. Yeah. The stabbing, the cutting, the pulling out of organs. It's just going to get worse for him, though.

It's going to get worse for him. But luckily, nobody else is going to get hurt. I mean, he's done an incredible amount of damage already. So he's in jail. And like you said, his behavior, it gets worse. I don't know what the clinical term is for it. But this guy, you know, he's gesturing wildly. He's making announcements that he's going to save the world.

He kept telling everybody he was the 13th warrior on the dollar bill. Is there warriors on the dollar bill? I have no idea. I don't believe. so. Now, if I had a dollar bill, I'd get it out, but you know me, I don't carry money, so I can't look. As far as I know, there's not 12 warriors on the dollar, or 13 warriors on the dollar bill. You got a dollar bill, you can let me look. I'll get back to you. I've fallen for that one before. Not again. Not again. He kept telling other prisoners that the kids weren't dead,

that he freed their hearts from evil. Okay. Now, the one thing he had in jail with him was a Bible, right? He grew up in the church. It was very well versed in the Bible. It was one verse really that spoke to him. Matthew 529. And he goes, if your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Yeah. So what do you think that means? What do I think it means as far as the Bible believes it means. Yeah. I don't know.

Get rid of something that's the one thing that's causing you to not do well before it brings down the rest of you, your entire being. Exactly. But I think he took it very literally where it talked about your right eye. And this is only six days after the murder. I mean, he's not been in jail for months and months and months. Not even a whole week. No.

He hadn't even been in there a week. he takes it very literally, he reaches into his right eye socket, and he pulls his own eye out. Like the popping sisters. Just pop it out. Just popped it out. Yeah. Pulled it out. But this time he pulled out his own.

Right. Right. Yeah. I think much harder. Oh, very much harder. To pull out your own. I don't recommend pulling anybody's out. I'm not saying that, but I think very much harder to pull out your own.

It's a commitment. You've got to fall through. Once you start. Once you start, there's no halfway with that. No. You can't pull it out halfway. It's just asking for trouble right there. I don't know, Gibbs.

I can't even really come to grips with what kind of pain that would be. I mean, you see that type of thing in movies and certain TV shows. I don't know. Real life to do that to yourself. I don't know, man. I don't think you could do it. I know for a fact I couldn't do it. Number one, I would never want to, even if I had to, how do you even get in there?

How do you grip it? How do you... It's a... It's a... Mechanically, how do you even do it? Dig, scoop, and pull. Oh, gosh. So he's rushed to the hospital.

And apparently he just kept asking to talk to Laura. He wanted to talk to her. He wanted to ask her for her forgiveness. This is a woman that he has killed. And he's saying he wants to talk to her. So I don't think it's any... surprise, right? Everybody involved with this case in the beginning agreed that Andre Thomas was not fit to stand trial. I mean, even the prosecution agreed with that. He was sent to a state

psychiatric hospital for treatment. And this was probably the first time that he got any type of help in his entire life. The psychiatrist there said that he suffered from schizophrenia form, which I had never heard of. I've heard of schizophrenia, but apparently the difference between that and schizophrenia, which is the one I think we hear about, you know, more often. Schizophreniform is when the person shows the same symptoms of schizophrenia, but for six months or less.

Okay. So it was like a many, many stage. Yeah, I just never, I had never heard that. They also diagnosed him with substance abuse induced psychotic disorder. Okay. And I think they thought this stem from the fact he was taking all this cold medicine. He was mixing it with alcohol.

It's never good. No, never good. So they put him on the anti-psychotic drug, Zypregza. Zipraza. It's Italian, by the way. Is it? I did not know that. Yeah.

And he was taking this for about seven weeks. And it was at that point that the same doctors, the same doctors that said he had all this other stuff, determined that he was now fit to stand trial. So his trial didn't start until February of 2005. His defense team had real struggles with Andre. You know, they later came out and said that he wouldn't communicate with them. They couldn't get him to talk. That's a problem for a defense team, right?

It doesn't make their job very easy. Not that they want them on the stand, but they need him to communicate in the of the, you know, the backdrop of what's going on and what happened. Sure. So they can try to help save him. The way it was reported was that he just sat at the defense table, pretty much catatonic throughout the trial. He wore a black patch where his right eye had been.

So kind of like, I don't mean to laugh when I say that. It's like a pirate thing, you know? Yeah, he looked like a pirate, you know. And he just munched on Skittles throughout the whole trial. We're in a pirate patch and munched it on skittles. Skittles. Eating Skittles. All right.

And not just eating skittles, right? Eating skittles through what you know Gibbs had to have been some of the most gruesome testimony, pictures. His crimes were brutal. That would have not went over well with any juror. A juror sitting there saying, you're just going to sit there and eat skittles while they show these pictures. Of your kids? Yeah. That's not.

Something's not right there. And we're not going to spit a lot of time. the trial, but you can imagine, right? We've already talked about what happened. The facts presented the testimony. It was all extremely rough. Some doctors testified at the trial that Andre Thomas was deliberately exaggerating his symptoms of mental illness to avoid punishment.

They went as far as to say that his behavior didn't stem from an actual mental illness at all, but rather from his sudden withdrawal from alcohol and drugs. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, can you have that level withdrawal from alcohol that you want to kill somebody? I don't know about that. Yeah, I really don't agree. I don't agree with these doctors that he was putting this on. Now, did he maybe make it worse, look worse than it was during trial or, yeah, maybe.

But I don't, to me, there is no doubt. This guy was mentally ill. It doesn't excuse anything he did. Going back to 10 years old, was he making it up then? I don't think so, man. I don't either. I mean, in his own head, he's not making it up. You know what I mean when you can convince yourself, it's real?

Yeah, I think whatever way, there was something going on. And I don't say that a lot because I think a lot of people do put on a show to try to get out or try to minimize their sentence. these doctors even said that some of the stuff that he experienced years or go, like as a teenager, right? It was all from drugs and alcohol too. No mental illness, drugs and alcohol. But again, I don't agree. I don't think that's right.

Yeah, I can't agree with that either. Now, we don't have all the facts. We're not sitting there. We haven't evaluated this guy. I'm merely going by the research and the things that that was written about this guy. it seems to me to be way more than drug and alcohol abuse. Now, the jury was 100% Caucasian. And the reason I mention it is that it's going to come up later.

They found Andre Thomas guilty. I don't think it was a real hard decision. Took them less than an hour. To come to that conclusion, he was ultimately sentenced to death. So he gets to death row. And on death row, he spends 23 hours a day. in ADSEG, administrative segregation, the whole isolation, whatever you want to call it. Good times.

The one hour that he has free from his six by nine cell is for a little recreation still by himself. Right. And to take a shower. It's a one-man party, man, all day long. You think about people being in isolation. Yeah. Actually, you hear a lot about the fact that it's tough. It causes problems.

Just that by itself. right not being able to talk to other people so you really have to think about this guy who you know I believe was suffering from a pretty severe mental illness he stuck by himself alone with his thoughts for 23 hours a day or really 24 if you want to think about it even when he i don't think he's taking a shower i don't think he's getting to talk to a lot of people it seems to me as though his mental state kept deteriorating. You know, these conflicting voices in his head, that would be rough if it was nonstop. And you had nobody to talk to. You had nothing to break it up. Well, and he's sitting there going, why me? Why am I even in here? Oh, sure. I did the work that God asked me to do. Shouldn't I

be out and about? I don't know why I'm punished. And I think there's a good chance that he actually believe that, right? I did what I was asked to do. To kill Laura and the kids to save their souls, right? That's what he believed. Right. At a certain point on death row, he cut his own throat and he threatened to hang himself. They probably didn't believe him because he's not very good at it. No, no, no, he is not. He tried to take his own life many times. We said that before. On December 9th, 2008, he did something that I've never even imagined. I've never heard of. I've never seen it in a movie. He took out his other eye, his left eye. But this time he ate it. You put salt on that? What do you put on that?

How would he see to put the salt on it? He literally cannot see now. Yeah. What the texture is? Of an eye? Yeah. I think it was like a hard bowl egg. It's close to an egg, right? A hardballed egg. A little harder to bite through maybe. Yeah, I don't know. It's disgusting. It sounds disgusting. It does sound gross. You know, somebody will say it's really close to a pig's eye because they always say human stuff is close to what. It's like a pig.

Yeah. Yeah. So go to your local butcher and get a couple pig eyes and boil them up. I would think human eyes are fairly similar to animals' eyes of a certain size. Yeah. Maybe a cow, pig, something like that. Want to get someone in trial out? No, I do not. No, I do not.

But to me, it's not just the taking out of the eye. Obviously, you have the eating your own eye. But add on to that, the fact that you've now just made sure you can't see a thing. No. You are completely blind. You ate your eye. Now you can see your own shit, but that's about it. That's it.

That's all you got. So at this point that he did this, he had spent three years in isolation. But his legal team was still fighting for him, right? they were trying to fight his death sentence based on a couple of things number one his mental illness but the other thing that they they kept arguing was that the jury selection process in his trial was flawed and apparently Gibbs there were three members of that jury that openly stated they were opposed to interracial relationships oh and this is important because laura was white and and andre was African-American I didn't remember

mentioned it before because it didn't matter. It really only comes into play when you find out that there are members of the jury that were not just opposed to it, actually said in court, you know, when they're asking them questions during voir dire that they were opposed to it. But that wasn't it. You know, we know there's racial bias in this world. Nobody's naive. But even so, I have a hard time believing that any jury, regardless of the makeup of that jury,

could have gone any other way. Oh. Than what this jury did. I mean, it's not like you were not going to find this guy guilty. No, I think the outcome would have been the same regardless. I mean, you could have put 12 green people on there. They were going to find this guy guilty. Yeah.

But it's so interesting. You have to talk about some of these jurors. I guess one juror told lawyers and the judge during selection that, quote, the bloodlines shouldn't be mixed. Okay. That's some that's some Ku Klux claims. type talk there. It certainly is there. Another juror said that children from an interracial couple would, quote, not have a specific race to belong to. So they didn't believe in it. And then there was

another juror that said interracial relationships were, quote, contrary to God's intent. Right. So these people have their own thoughts. They're entitled to their thoughts. Whatever. I don't agree with them. I know you don't agree with them. But what's amazing is that Andre Thomas's trial attorney didn't really aggressively challenged these people as jurors when they openly said that they were, they had these racial thoughts or whatever you want to call them. I find that fascinating. It's definitely interesting. You would think any trial lawyer would say, nope, bye, bye, you're gone. See you. You know, I have an African-American defendant, my client, you're saying things that make me not want you on this jury. I'm striking you. I'm using my challenges. Maybe the guy ran out of challenges at some point. Dad was stuck with

what he had? Maybe there was so many, so many people that had those type of thoughts he couldn't get rid of everybody. But that didn't seem to be the case. It was really, in the research, it was more about the fact that they just weren't, they weren't challenged. Like, okay, you got those thoughts? Come on in. Come on in, let's do this. We're going to make you change your mind anyway. Didn't make any sense. But, you know, as of now, Andre Thomas, he's just hanging out on death row, completely blind. Cannot even imagine.

Of his own doing. Can't blame anybody. Took both his eyes himself, ate one of them, and now he can't even read the Bible. Well, they probably get them some of those books on tape. Maybe. You know. But, you know, fighting the court still, he and his legal. team on whether or not his death sentence was legal, that is the one thing that there are still

a lot of articles about and pretty recent articles, you know, the state of his mental health, you know, should his sentence really have been death? Not that he didn't do it. Obviously, everybody knows he did it. Right. And he deserves to pay for his crime. I think the real question in this case, in a lot of people's minds is this guy was so obviously mentally, mentally, ill was the death sentence the right thing. Now, he hasn't been put to death yet, but he will be if something doesn't change. Yeah, some tough answers there. Yeah. And like I said, I just, I don't agree with the doctors that testified this trial. Maybe they knew something that we don't know, but I just don't see how there's any way that this guy does not have serious mental health

issues. But that's it. That's the case of Andre Thomas. And, you know, we set it up front. And I still agree. It is one of the most gruesome cases we've covered. Yeah, you know, something about people, I mean, it's gruesome when they do things other people. That's terrible. You know, but something about digging into your own body. It's messed up, man. Digging out your eyeballs. We talk about killers. We, I mean, that's what we do. Yeah. We talk about people that make the decision to take other people's lives. I just, I don't get the whole, I don't know how you can do that to your kids, man.

That's the thing. I mean, look at the people that he did this to. And that's not even that out of the ordinary. I hate to say that. But we've talked about people before that have killed their family and their kids and that, but to carve them up and remove their organs and stick it in your pocket and then leave.

Yeah. because you think that by removing the hearts, because he thought he removed all three hearts. He did. He didn't know one was a lung. Right. He thought by doing that, that he was somehow in some, you know,

twisted way saving their souls. He thought he had to do that. Or at least that's what he claims. Yeah. You know, you got to go by some of that. I just don't, yeah,

I just can't comprehend that. Yeah, brutal. Now everybody can go back to eating. Yeah, go ahead and pick that sandwich up. now that that nice deli like roast beef like maybe rare a little bloody on it a little bloody on it did i just say a little bloody did i don't know what that means you know you eat that rare roast beef sometimes on sandwiches it's like uh i don't eat roast beef that's bloody they sell it jimmy johns no you don't go to jimmy johns and get roast beef and there's blood

dripping off of oh there has been when i got it no you are going to a place called jimmy joes or something like some knockoff that you get for like the third of the price of jimmy johns yeah but you're not getting a bloody roast beef sandwich at jimmy johns i'm telling you i don't i'm calling BS on this whole thing it's it's it's a it's bloody the bread is turns like a pinkish color man okay is it juices yeah juices yeah is different than blood i don't know man i don't know i'm not buying still a good sandwich i'm not buying it we got some voice-mole Gibbs, you want to check those out? No, sir.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoy your show. You guys do a great job. Very easy to listen to. Timelines are great. You guys have the best true time podcast out there. So thanks for that. I do have a case suggestion for you that's very close to me.

His name is Gary Lieberman. He's also called the Elmer Fudd Killer. He was convicted of killing Jane Mixer in Ann Arbor, Michigan. The unique thing about this case is that her murder was lumped with a serial killer at the time called the Coed killer, and that was in 1969. But Gary was actually arrested 35 years later because of DNA evidence. I grew up with his family in the 90s, spent tons of time with them, and it was a shock when he was arrested, and then he was sentenced to life in prison.

So hopefully you're interested in this case. Again, thanks for everything. You guys are awesome. Both of you. and keep your own time ticking. Bye. All right. Yeah,

we'll definitely have to check that out. That sounds very familiar. Almost like maybe Morph and I did that when we were doing some of the DNA solved cases. But Jane Mixer sounds very familiar. Sounds like a good case. I don't know if we've profiled this individual for sure, but it sounds like, to me, it's like we've done something around it. Hi. My name's Wesley.

I live in Southern California, the Riverside area. I listen. I actually binge listened since I'm fairly new to the podcast. I have a suggestion for, I'm not sure if you know about this man or you've ever done a show about him, but his name is William Suff, S-U-F-F. He was a Riverside County employee and was considered our very own homegrown serial killer. He focused on prostitutes and he actually was a, very well liked county employee even won a chili cookoff one time so anyway um william soft is his name and it would be really cool if uh you did a show on him thanks so much hope you guys are doing good bye all right thank you for that i'll make sure we have william suff on the list yeah not one i'm familiar with right off top of me neither hope there wasn't anything bad in that chili this one makes me not want chili right now exactly i'm like me it's kisina i'm from California and I just found your podcast, your true time all the time podcast a few months ago

and I've been listening to it like constantly ever since. I really love it. I always come to my family telling them stories about these people and they're just like fortified like how do you listen to all of this stuff but I just find it so interesting and it makes my commute to school and work a lot easier. I mean, cosmetology for it now and I listen to it on the way to school and on the way back and I just wanted to say thank you for all you guys do. Keep your own time ticking. Love that. Yeah.

We love when people find the show, and hopefully she's doing good in her cosmetology school. I could use some work done. You need a lot of work done. I do need a lot of work done. Yeah. To be fair, though, so do I. So, you know, we both need a lot of work done. You more than me, though.

From a cosmetology standpoint, I would have to agree with you. It's not something we spend a lot of time on, like my wife and kids do. They spend a lot of money on it, too. Time and money. Sure. Yeah. My daughter's always plucking eyebrows and doing, you know, all kinds of things. Well, she's offered to pluck yours.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not in. Well, she gets overzealous with hers sometimes. And they get like razor thin. I'm like, there's nothing there. Yeah. Easy. I got to have a little bit there. Yeah.

Otherwise your pencil, you know, pencil or marker. Yeah. I'm pretty sure if she, if I let her go just unchecked. Yeah. She'd probably just take them all out, just on purpose. purpose. It'd be fun if she did to yours. Yeah, you'd be like a Seinfeld episode.

With Uncle Leo? Uncle Leo. Why he's so mad? Hi, Mike and Giddy. My name is Kim, and I am from Virginia. I listen to your podcast every week, and I have my entire team at work listening to you, too. So for those that are listening to you, I wanted to give them a big shout out. They know who they are, and get back to work.

We are all Team Mike. We don't have a favorite. we love you both. Keep your own fun. Stay good. You know, an office that listens to T-Cat together outperforms everybody else. They do. They do. And Kim and her folks do not

play favorites. I just like to she said, get back to work. But you can listen while you work, but get back to work. That's what the little you can do it. Sounded out. The little elf, you know, Snow White, the dwarf. The dwarf. The little elf. What's the why you work?

Listen why you work. the same thing. Okay. So where he's going with that? It just took a while to get there. It's a long train. It is a long train sometimes. It is. You know, you know. But that all stops at the same place. And sometimes it just completely derails halfway there and it never makes it to its destination. We've had some pretty bad derailments. Yeah. Yeah. But the cleanup's always fun. It is. Gibbs, we had mailbag. Jordan Richards sent us a big package of beef jerky. Uh, there's even cricket jerky in there, which I'm not sure what that is, but you and I will have to try it and then report back what it tastes like. Jordan also sent a donation through the mail, which is awesome.

Have to give a big shout out for that. And then we had Mary Beth Long, big Patreon supporter. She heard us talking about Utah. She was one of the people that had sent us fry sauce in the past. She had also sent us Utah salt. Givie, you talked about that. She sent us a whole bunch of salt, as well as a few other things. So Mary Beth is amazing. We really appreciate that. And we got two postcards, one from a 14 year old border collie and one from a three year old guinea pig, who apparently both loved the show and who are also able to write postcards, which I thought is really cool. All right, folks, that is it for another episode of true crime all time. So for Mike and Gabi, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.