True Crime All The Time - Angelika Graswald

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Angelika Graswald was accused of killing her fiancé during a 2015 kayaking trip on the Hudson River. Prosecutors argued that she wanted out of the relationship, so she intentionally removed the kayak’s drain plug, which contributed to its subsequent capsizing and her fiancé’s drowning. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the case of Angelika Graswald. She made numerous incriminating statements, even going so far as to say she wanted her fiancé dead. The trial came down to the prosecution's theory against the defense's testing of the theories and the possibilities of how things may have happened that day.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 446 of the True Crime All of the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah.

You know, we were talking on Patreon about our weeks, what we're watching. Yeah. My daughter and her fiance are fully entrenched back in our house. Your new roommates. And new roommates and things are going pretty well. Well, good. You know, we were a little worried. We didn't know how it was going to go.

Yeah. But they kind of have their own space and it's good. Things are good. I just find it weird that you told me there was no room here when I was asking. There's no room at the end. But now suddenly you got plenty of room. Okay, I said it wrong. There's no room for you.

Yeah. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Zach Jay. What's going on, Zach? Paula. Hey, Paula. Hey, Paula. Bronwyn Mason.

Hey, thanks, Bronwyn. Rochelle Perdue. There's Rochelle. Ducky. Good old Ducky. Sierra. Christina B. Ashley Fent.

Well, thanks, Ashley. A Hunt. What's going on, A? And last but not least, Wendy Thompson. There's Wendy. And if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Misha Kohnai. Hey, thanks, Misha.

Yeah, so we appreciate the new support, to continue support, all of it. Right now, Gibbs, we have a, new episode out on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about the bogel chandler mystery and this takes us back to 1960s australia dr gilbert bogel and margaret chanler were found on the banks of the lane cove river in sydney and it's kind of become an infamous case it has due to the circumstances in which their bodies were found and around the cause of death and all of that. So make sure you check it out.

All right. You ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am. We are talking about Angelica Graswell. She was accused of killing her fiancé during a 2015 kayaking trip on the Hudson River. Prosecutors argued that she wanted out of the relationship. So she intentionally removed the kayak's drain plug, which contributed to its capsizing.

and her fiance is drowning. And this is a pretty famous case as well. It's been covered by a lot of the shows, right? Your 48 hours, your 2020s. So some people might be familiar with this one. Angelica Lipska moved from Latvia to the U.S. in August 2000 to work as a nanny for a family in Connecticut. She originally planned on staying for a year,

but she decided she wanted to live in the U.S. permanently. I wonder how many people that happens to. I think more than we probably realize. Yeah. I mean, I can imagine people from some places around the world come to the U.S. And they grow to like it and say, hey, I'd like to live here. Certainly a lot of opportunity. There is.

Just like, you know, you taking that trip to Greece, you've been talking about it nonstop, that you'd love to live that lifestyle. I would. I don't know that it would be great for your long-term health or your your longevity. But it sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah, it is a lot of fun. In the early 2000s, Angelica studied English and German in hopes of becoming a teacher or translator. Her friend said she was also passionate about photography.

She was married and divorced twice. Grazwald was her ex-husband's last name. and she chose to keep it after the divorce. Well, some people do that. I know my ex kept my last name because we had kids together. Well, and I can see that happening a lot. Yeah. You want to have the same name as your children.

Yeah, makes sense. But now, let's say if you don't have any children, I wonder how many people keep it versus don't. Maybe they really didn't like their first name, not their first first name, but their original last name. Their original last name. After Angelica separated from her second husband in 2009, she moved in with Michael Colvin, whom she had only known for three weeks.

They broke up in early 2010. Mike told 48 hours that Angelica had a temper. He recounted an incident that occurred shortly after they broke up. She insisted on keeping the cat. They adopted together and threatened to break into the house. if he didn't give it to her. She laid down in the driveway as he was trying to leave. So he had no choice but to give her the cat.

Okay. That's like one of those protest moves. Yeah. Lay down in front of the big piece of equipment. That's trying to cut down the redwood. Yeah. Or you chain yourself to the tree. In September 2013,

Angelica met Vincent Viafort at a pub in Poughkeepsie. Vincent, who was almost 11 years older than Angelica, was a project manager with the state of New York. Vincent grew up in Wappinger, New York. His friends agree that Vincent was always the life of the party, and he enjoyed going out and having a good time. So he sounds like a gibby. Yeah, hey, if you're going to go out, have a good time.

And always be the life of the party. If you can. Vincent's friend, Sherry Pate, said it was love at first sight for Vincent and Angelica. Like Angelica, Vincent had also been married and divorced twice. They moved in together soon after they started dating. And she became part of Vincent's friend group. You know that saying love at first sight. Right.

I think it happens for quite a few people. Yeah. I believe that. Some people, they grow to, you know, fall in love with someone over time. Some people are so enamored with the person, the first time they meet that they're kind of thunderstruck. And that's how you were with your wife. Yeah, I would say that.

Thunderstruck. Thunderstruck. Angelica was working as a bartender when they started dating, but she quit her job. And Vincent supported her financially. They got engaged in February 2014. Angelica told the New York Times, it was a spontaneous proposal. They were at a Habachi steakhouse. and her ring was a slice of onion from the grill.

That's different. That's very different. First of all, I love a good habachi steakhouse. I know you do. Love it. Really do. Now, a lot of them, they take the onion, they slice it to make the little volcano. Yeah.

I don't know about then taking that slice of onion and putting it on your girlfriend's finger. Yeah. after it's been heating on that grow. Doesn't seem like the best way to do it. I don't know. It's also going to smell. It's going to smell like onion. It's going to smell like onion.

I mean, at least you didn't like have it mixed with the shrimp. You know, when they flip the shrimp at you and have you open your mouth, he tries to hit you in the mouth with the shrimp. At least he didn't try to hit her in the mouth with the ring or something like that. Yeah. I mean, it is out of the box for sure. They planned on getting married on a beach in Latvia. on August 15, 2015.

However, their relationship wasn't as happy as it seemed at first glance. And man, how many times have we said something like that? Many. You know, a lot of people who probably knew them thought, oh, they're so cute together. They got the perfect relationship. Meanwhile, not so perfect. And I think, you know, a lot of people can put on that front, right? when they're out with friends or with their family,

you're not going to be bickering all the time. But when you're alone, things might not be as good as people think they are. I think there's a lot of people that get in the car after a night out, and it's the longest drive they've ever had to get home because it's not a loving ride home. Okay. Is that coming from experience or you're just...

I've just throwing it out there as maybe someone, Some people have experienced. Yeah. Vincent's sister Laura Wright said there was friction in the relationship and Angelica had a temper. Vincent was frustrated that she wasn't working. He called off the engagement, but continued supporting her. Laura believed he was close to ending the relationship. Well, it sounds like to me he probably was, right?

I don't want to marry you, but I'll keep supporting you for now is how I'm thinking it probably went. But how long can that continue? Or how long should it continue? Yeah. Vincent's friend, Sherry also said that Angelo could be violent with Vincent when she was drunk. She would slap him in the face repeatedly. That's where you got to draw a line in the sand, I think.

Like, hey, I'm not really into this slapping me in the face consistently. No, some people pay good money for that. but most people do not like that and you know maybe that had a little something to do with him calling off the engagement two weeks before he died Vincent texted his former roommate Amanda hoistrat and expressed doubts about his relationship with Angelica but he changed his mind the next day I'm also getting this vibe Gibbs that he's a little bit unsure yeah you know he's seeing maybe which you would consider red flags, but at the same time,

he's probably very in love with this person. Yeah, and he's having a hard time reconciling everything. And figuring out what does he really want to do? Yeah. Right? Because sometimes there's a battle between the head and the heart.

For sure. The head knows that something's not right. Yeah. But the heart knows that it wants what it wants. Exactly. And then you have that other thing arguing with you too. I have no idea what you're talking about. On April 18, 2015, Vincent and Angelica went to a party with friends.

Vincent wanted to stay out and have more drinks, but Angelica wanted to go home. Before they left, Vincent mentioned that he wanted to go kayaking to a friend. His friend told him he shouldn't go because the water was choppy and cold, but Vincent couldn't be talked out of it. Love a good kayaking afternoon. How often have you gone kayaking? frequently. Okay. I have done it a couple of times.

Yeah. It is much harder than people make it look. My arms were like burning. Very sore. Yeah, by the time I got back. I was wishing I had like a little bitty motor on the back just to get me back to the dock. You can get those. You just have to ask for them.

On Sunday, April 19th, Angelica and Vincent decided to kayak across the Hudson to Bannerman's Island. Bannerman's Island is part of the state park system. The couple wanted to go to the ruins of Bannerman's Castle, which was built in the early 20th century. Angelica was very familiar with the island because she had been volunteering in the gardens since 2012. The executive director of the Bannerman Castle Trust told the New York Times that Angelica and Vincent

should not have been on the island by themselves because the ruins are considered hazardous. Well, I'm guessing she figured she knew enough about it since she volunteered on the island. And was out there frequently. But, you know, the Hudson River was around 48 degrees that day. It was also supposed to rain. But despite all that, the couple launched their kayaks just after 4 p.m. They brought beer with them for the trip.

Beer and rowing. I don't know. Well, you know, somebody said, hey, you probably shouldn't go. The water's choppy. It's cold. I like the water, fresh water. I don't like the ocean. We've talked about that a lot.

You know what I don't like? 48 degree water. No, it's not going to be fun if you tip into it. But they made it to Bannerman's Castle, where Angelica changed into something sexy for photographs per 48 hours. Well, you know, when I kayak, I always like to bring a change of clothes. So when I get to my destination, I can change into something. Sexy?

Sexy. If you're feeling sexy? I get it, though. I mean, you know, maybe they're trying to be romantic. They're obviously probably pretty secluded. I can't imagine there's too many other people out there. Trying to spice it up a little bit. But, you know, it's cold.

It's windy. It doesn't seem like the time to kayak. It certainly doesn't seem like sexy time. But they decided to head home around 7 p.m. according to Angelica, Vincent was not wearing a life jacket during their trip and the waters turned rough on their way back. But she also said that Vincent seemed to be enjoying it and told her, babe, this is an adventure of a lifetime. Around 7.30 p.m., Angelica called 911 to report that Vincent's kayak had capsized and he was struggling to stay above water. she said in her 911 call per 48 hours.

I'm in the Hudson River. My fiance fell in the water. Can you please call anybody? I can't get to him. It's very windy and the waves are coming in and I can't paddle to him. He's getting further and further away from me. He's going to drown. At one point, she said she could still see Vincent's head.

But then she told the operator she couldn't see him anymore. Angelica later told 2020. me that one of her last mental images of Vincent was his head and arm, sticking out of the water, pushing his paddle towards her and asking her to call 911. How devastating would that be to experience that, to see that happening to someone you love? Nightmarish. You know, if this is the way that it really went down, now obviously there's going to be an argument about that.

But let's just say it did go down this way. you saw your loved one in a very dangerous situation and there was nothing you could do. Yeah. To help them. You were helpless. A boat from the Cornwall Yacht Club was sent out to rescue them. Angelica was pulled out of the water. Both kayaks were recovered, but Vincent was not found.

People soon noticed that Angelica seemed unaffected by what happened to her fiance. She called Vincent's friend Sherry Partey. On April 20th, Angelica said Vincent was missing, and Sherry thought she was oddly calm. While divers were searching the Hudson for Vincent, Angelica posted a video of herself doing cartwheels on Facebook in an old picture of herself kayaking in bad weather. Okay, that's strange right there. Well, you know, how many of those kind of interrogation room videos have you seen where people, are doing or acting in a way that just doesn't fit with the situation that they're in.

Jodi Arias comes to mind. Sure. Yeah. And there's, there's so many of them that, that kind of leap into my head where people are singing or they're, they're doing something that doesn't fit with the situation. I mean, she should know at that point, right? she saw her fiance struggling, most likely drowned and dead, just haven't recovered the body yet. I don't know how you could be doing cartwheels and posting photos and things like that.

Well, Angelica's friend, Joel Goss, told 48 hours that she was trying to put on a happy, brave face and keep hope that Vincent would be found. And I get that. That's something that you want to do. It just doesn't seem in line with what we just talked about. Angelica did an interview with News 12 Westchester on April 23rd and recounted her fiance's final moments. She said, I saw him struggling a little bit. He was trying to figure out how to paddle the waves. And then I just saw him flip right in front of me. He kept like watching me. And I kept watching him. She remembered calling out to him, just hold on, just hold on. Vincent told her, I don't think I'm going to make it.

again, if that's how it happened, that would be a horrifying sight. Yeah, heartbreaking. On April 29th, 2015, Angelica returned to Bannerman's Island to place flowers for Vincent. The police showed up to ask her questions and she agreed to come with them to the station. Her interrogation lasted about 11 hours. That's a long time. That's a very long time. That's like your flight to Greece.

Close too. Imagine being interrogated for that whole flight. Probably not much worse than what you actually experienced. Being wedged in among a group of people. Yes. She told investigators that Vincent got drunk on the night of April 18th. They argued but made up before they fell asleep. On April 19th, Vincent was determined to go kayaking.

This was something they did every spring. She said that Vincent packed their gear. She had a life vest, but he didn't take one for himself. I get it. You know, some people are very adamant about wearing life vests. Some people don't think it's all that necessary. It's kind of like seatbelts, right? Right.

Some people won't even pull out without their seatbelt on. Some people don't ever wear, even though they know they should. It's true. I don't like to wear mine. Life jacket or seatbelt? Both. All right. But eventually I'll put the seatbelt on because I get tired of hearing the dang.

The dang. But that's the only reason you put it on. Angelica said she knew Vincent's kayak was missing its drain plug. The kayak was working fine on their way to the island. But on the way back, she saw his kayak start to fill up. According to 48 hours, she said, And I knew that the plug wasn't there. Okay.

So now we're starting to get into kind of the area where, police are suspecting her. Yeah. You know, if you knew that the drain plug was missing, why in the world would you set off or allow him to even get in the kayak? I don't know much about drain plugs on kayaks. I know a lot about them on boats. One thing you don't want to do in a boat is go out on the water without the drain plug.

Yeah. Because you're going to end up at the bottom real quickly. keep that drain plug in where it needs to be. But it's so weird, right? Her saying, I knew it was missing. What she doesn't elaborate on is I told Vincent this or I said, hey, you better get your drain plug. Right. Doesn't elaborate on any of that part.

Vincent was suddenly in the water and was holding on to his seat cushion, which acted as a float, as well as his kayak and a dry bag. Angelica took his paddle and hooked it to her kayak. She told detectives in her interview, he's in the water. I have both paddles and the waves are pulling me away from him further and further. And that's when he yells, call 911. Now, I'm already spotting one discrepancy because we said she told one of the outlets he had the paddle in his hand. Yes.

So that seemed strange. Because now she has both paddles. Angelica expressed her frustration with the relationship and her desire to end things. She said Vincent pressured her to do sexual things. She wasn't comfortable with, like participating in threesomes. She also admitted that she felt trapped and sometimes wished Vincent was dead. An investigator asked her why she wanted him to die and she said, I wanted to be free. It's such a weird statement to make during questioning.

Well, if there was a list of things not to say during an interrogation, these would be, you know, near the top. Yeah. There were times that, you know, I wished him dead. I wanted to be free of him. I mean, when someone is already suspicious of you, saying things like this is not going to help that out. Not at all. When the investigators asked what was going through her mind, while watching Vincent's struggle,

Angelica said, as quoted by the New York Times, I'm like ripping in two halves, you know, angels and demons. The demon side, it's not a good side. And that side was telling me, this is going to happen. Let it happen. Just let it.

But the good was, save him, save him, save him. You're strong. The detective asked why the demon side, one, Angelica answered, well, because of the way he was treating me, you know. Wow. So this is interesting that she's laying this out like that. Well, number one, she's talking way too much. You know, she is digging a hole.

Now, she might not have thought she was, but to me, this is, you know, what she's saying is very damning stuff. And this is why obviously an attorney would have said, hey, don't answer that or don't don't say these things. Angelica contradicted herself throughout the interview. She admitted that she sometimes wanted Vincent gone, but said at another point, I didn't want to kill him or anything like that. She did say she wanted him gone, but added, I didn't want him like gone, gone.

Just gone. Just a little bit gone. Yeah. She was asked why Vincent didn't have the drain plug. Angelica said he didn't have it because I guess. I had it. I'm sure whenever she did get an attorney, the attorney was like, what the hell? Were you thinking?

Yeah. Why did you say any of this? Yes. So, you know, going back to what we said earlier, he does, she knew he didn't have the drain blood, but she didn't tell him that. And when asked why he didn't have it, she said, well, I guess because I had it. So what does that mean? You took it out on purpose? I mean, what is what is what are the authorities supposed to make of that? Yeah, you, you knew he didn't have it. You knew you had it, but you didn't say anything to him. So what did you think was going to happen? Yeah.

The investigator asked if she intentionally took it out because she wanted to be free. She answered, could be. Could be. Okay. Well, that definitely was not a no. So anything but. a no is not the right answer. She also noted that she removed the plug months before their kayaking trip when her kitten was playing with it at home. So she knew back then it didn't have the plug in it. Yeah. And I, you know, you can infer that she knew when they were getting ready for the trip. She knew when they launched the kayaks that the drain plug wasn't there.

A detective asked when you watched him in the water. Was a part of you saying, my worries are going away now, were you almost, and then he paused, and Angelica filled in the word. Euphoric. Wow.

I mean, this is like how to get yourself in trouble, charged, convicted 101. You are saying almost in every instance, the worst possible thing you could say. Absolutely. And I'm with you.

Once an attorney does get involved, they would just be flabberg. Oh, for sure. I mean, you have left me with literally nothing to work with. Maybe like at the office the next day, like, so how that case, how's that case going? You're not going to believe this. Let me tell you what she said at the interview that I have to work with.

Angelica was told she watched her fiance drown. She responded, I didn't just watch him drown. I tried to do something about it. Angelica started to agree with what the police were asking her. likely because she wanted to go home. She said at one point, all right, I'll give you a fucking statement. She said, I wanted him dead and now he's gone. And I'm okay with it.

She just doesn't know how to stop. Now, is she later on going to say, I said these things because I was there for 11 hours? Sure. I was tired. I wanted to get the heck out of there. So I just started telling them whatever they wanted to hear. 11 hours is a long time. It is a long time.

And we know people will confess to some things that they didn't do. Yeah. Just to get out of that room. Exactly. Now, she is saying a lot of things. She is. Angelica was charged with murder on April 30th, 2017. Prosecutor said she intentionally killed Vincent and told misleading stories.

And I don't know how they couldn't charge her, right, based on the things that she said. in the interrogation. Hours after she was arrested, News 12 Westchester reported that Angelica said the police found her diary, where she wrote that Vincent wanted to have a threesome and she wished he were dead. She told the outlet she wrote this when she was angry

and didn't actually mean it. That's possible. You know, I mean, there's times when people get really mad at somebody and, you know, they're like, oh, I just wish you were dead. Yeah, and especially I think, when you think about a journal or a diary, you know, you're writing things that you're not expecting

anyone else to read. Yeah, at the heat of the moment too, a lot of times is when you're writing it, when you're really frustrated with somebody. So I get that. It doesn't mean as much to me as her saying, I wanted him dead and now he's gone. And I'm okay with it. Yeah, that's not good. Because she's saying that after she knows he's dead, or at least missing, gone and gone. missing, presumed dead. At Angelica's bail hearing in May 2015, prosecutors quoted her as saying that she tampered with Vincent's Kayant and that it felt good knowing he was going to die. They also said that she was aware. She was the beneficiary of two life insurance policies and stood to gain $250,000. She talked about what she could do with the money.

Which is always strange, right? If you're talking about, oh, I got $250,000 coming to me, I'm going to do this and that. Shouldn't you be grieving right now? Well, it also answers the question of motive. Because without the life insurance, what does she stand again? They weren't married. No. Just getting out of the relationship that she didn't want to be in anymore.

Which she could have easily done just by leaving. Yeah. You don't need to kill somebody to get out of a relationship when you're not married. You actually don't need to when you are married. Although it seems like a lot of people think you do. Exactly. Based on the stories that we cover. We covered enough of them.

But $250,000 is a boatload of money. Not to use a pun because we happen to be talking about a kayaking incident, but it's a ton of money. and it's definitely a motive for murder. Hell, we've seen people kill for a heck of a lot less. Angelica said Vincent's boat capsized at 7.15 p.m. But she didn't call 911 until 7.40. Prosecutors alleged she intentionally capsized her own kayak to make it look like she tried to save him.

Well, that's a long time not calling 911. You know, when you're in the water, cold water, you see someone struggling, the longer they struggle, you know they're not going to be able to make it. You can only tread water and struggle so long before eventually you run out of energy. Well, and time is of the essence. Sure it is.

Assuming she could have called at 7.15, then that is a long time. At a news conference, Angelica's attorney Richard Pertali said, the prosecutions jump from pointing out inconsistencies and statements to claiming they had a confession was a really big difference. He attributed some of the prosecutor's claims to a language barrier, noting that Angelica still struggled with English.

Wasn't she studying to be a English tutor? Yeah, but she was from another country. Now, when you listen or, you know, watch hear the... videos of her being questioned, you know, she speaks pretty good English. But you can tell she's from another country. But like we've often said, right, people in these other countries give, they speak better English than a lot of people here in the U.S. Why are you pointing at me? One of whom I'm looking at right now. Her attorney also noted that the kayak plug was in the couple's apartment and had been removed sometime before.

Vincent's death. He maintained that Vincent's death was an accident. And Angelica's statements in her interview were coerced. Which can happen. They can happen. And it would have to be coercion, right, for her to have any chance. Because the statements she made were so damaged. I knew the plug wasn't there. I wanted him dead. I'm happy he's gone. Yeah. I mean, any jury is going to take those statements and there's no getting out of it. Around this time, news outlets reported that a man's body was found in the Hudson, but it was not Vincent. I mean, it is the Hudson.

A lot of things are found in that river. It's a pretty big body of water. On May 23rd, 2015, a body was found in the Hudson near West Point, about a mile downstream from Bannerman's Island. deputies were posted on the river guarding the graduation ceremony when they were flagged down by boaters. The following day, the body was identified as Vincent Viafort. So it was about a month later before his body was found and identified. Prosecutors held a news conference on May 26th and disclosed new details after Angelica was indicted for secondary murder and second.

in degree manslaughter. They said that Vincent reached for his paddle while he was struggling in the water, but Angelica moved it away. Okay, that's a problem, right? You know, here you want this, you want this paddle, come get it, come. Oh, you didn't get it. But how do they know that? That's, that's the interesting thing, right? I mean, the only person out there was her. And him. So he's not able to tell that story, so they got to assume that that's how it went down. Or they got that from her. Now, she did say at one time she had both paddles. She said at another time, he had one of the paddles. According to prosecutors, Angelica set out to kill Vincent by removing the plug from his kayak, so it would fill with water. She also tampered with his paddle by removing

a connector ring. When Vincent went into the water, she took the paddle away, so he couldn't use it as a flotation device. I mean, if that's how it went down, can you imagine being him at that moment just looking at her going son of a how could you do this to me i i know the relationship was rocky but this is still you know a couple who at one time cared about each other they were engaged so i i think when you go out with somebody like that even if the relationship is not the greatest at that point in time the last thing you're expecting is for them to do something like that. Yeah, especially just before they got back in the boats,

they were having a little, you know, sexy time, it sounded like. Maybe. Or at one point, she was wearing lingerie. Yeah, she was wearing sexy stuff, you know. So do you do that for somebody that you don't really want to be with it anymore? Like, I don't know. Well, maybe you do if it's part of this grand plan. Vincent's autopsy report was released in September 2000.

his cause of death was drowning his blood alcohol content was listed as 0.066 so i mean that's not that's not super high yeah i mean it's a few drinks maybe three drinks well i mean they did take beer with them for a person i don't know how much you weighed but for a person who weighs about 180 to 200 when i looked it up it said that was about three drinks yeah afternoon kayak to have three beers? That's not out of the ordinary, I wouldn't think. His manner of death was homicide caused by a kayak drain plug, intentionally removed by other. And that is a very specific manner of death. It is. To list it like that. And there's no way that a coroner or someone, a medical examiner, could know that unless they were

taking it from, you know, what she had said. Angelica's lawyer, Richard Portali, told the New York Times, clearly the Orange County medical examiner failed to conduct any meaningful investigation of her own and relied on false information provided by the New York State Police. She ruled this a homicide without a scintilla of medical evidence. And that's a great word, centilla. Yeah, I haven't used that in a while. I know it's one of your go-toes or has been in the past.

But he makes a good point. Well, it does seem as though at least that part, right, is based off of information that she shared or information that, you know, the medical examiner got from the police. Now, the cause of death being drowning, I think that's scientific. You can do that scientifically. But ruling it a homicide. You know, drowning is one of those that. it can be very tough, I think, to rule. I just feel like her statements really did some damage to her.

A ton of damage. Yeah. Because think about it this way. Take all of those statements out. Let's say she goes in there and says, this was just a horrible accident. I don't know how it happened. I don't know what happened. Could they even charge her?

I think it'd be a lot tougher. I think it would be really tough. Angelica's interview with ABC's, 2020 aired in November 2015. She said she loved Vincent and didn't do anything to kill him. She also said about her interrogation, they kept asking me the same questions, like a hundred times. I knew that I was innocent and I told them what they wanted to hear.

I was at my breaking point. Which we know, again, can happen. We've talked about it, right? People can only withstand so much before they give in and will, they'll, they'll, basically say or admit to anything. Well, some people. Some people. Not everyone.

No. A lot of people who are innocent are never going to say they're guilty, but some people do. She also clarified her statement that she wanted to be free saying, I wanted to be free of the lifestyle we had, the nightlife, the strip clubs, the threesomes. I wanted to be free from that. They told me it was going to be like a therapy session. And they might have said that. because they can. They can say whatever they want to get you to talk to them. At Angelica's June 2016 pre-trial hearing, a detective testified that she admitted she took

Vincent's paddle when he was in the water after he capsized and was holding onto his kayak and dryback. He asked her to call 911, but she kind of reached over and took his paddle from him and strapped it onto her kayak. She made this statement during a walk on the island before she was taken in for questioning, she also admitted that she removed the drain plug and tampered with his paddle. While on the island, Angelica said she wanted to be free. She felt trapped in her relationship. So this is interesting because this is not the 11-hour interrogation. This is fresh. This is before that. And she's admitting to some of these things. Which makes it even worse. It makes it hard to say, you I was coerced. I felt like I just had to get out of that room because this wasn't happening in

the room. While awaiting trial, Angelica's defense team hired forensic scientist Michael Archer, who spent months examining the evidence in his interview with 48 hours. Archer noted that the water was frigid. It was getting dark. It was windy. And the waves were three to five feet high. again, going back to my statement of, it doesn't seem like the right time to be kayaking. It really doesn't. I don't even think, I think at one point she said he said something like, this is a dream day. Yeah, great day or best day of my life or whatever he said. Now that's coming from her, obviously.

Vincent had no life vest on and he had some level of impairment by alcohol. Archer believed it was an accidental death. He conducted experiments in an effort to disprove the prosecution's theory. He had a person paddle the same route in the same model kayak with the drain plug out. It's important to note that with the model of kayak Vincent was using, the drain plug was on the top of the kayak, not the bottom. So that does make a big difference. It does. Now, it doesn't mean that with, you know, these three to five foot.

waves, eventually water couldn't fill up if it's lapping over the side of the kayak. But if the drain plug was on the bottom, it would happen very, very quickly. Although the experiment took place in calmer waters, the kayaker didn't notice any water, getting in through the small hole where the drain plug should have been. And I get that. The problem is you're in calm waters. the experiment is not happening in the exact same environment. So I don't know what to make of that.

It's really not apples to apples at all. Archer thought water got into the kayak's cockpit where the paddler sits, which caused it to capsize. He performed an experiment where he hooked the kayak to the back of a boat and created an artificial wave. He made sure the drain plug was out and the cockpit was open. the cockpit was partially filled with water from just one way. He then did a test where he sealed the cockpit but kept the drain plug open and poured water over the kayak.

Only a few ounces of water got inside. Okay. I could see where a test like that may have some validity with a jury. You know, if you're being a little more scientific with it, you're doing these type of tests, you're trying to recreate the waves. And now he's even pouring water right over the hole and it's just not filling up. Archer also had an assistant paddle the route

with the connector ring removed and the assistant had no issue. Definitely poking some holes in the prosecution's theory. Finally, the prosecution alleged that Angelica took Vincent's paddle. So he had nothing to hold on to. to, Archer taped a four-pound brick to the paddle and watched it sink, which meant it wouldn't have supported Vincent's weight if he was attempting to use it as a flotation device.

Well, that's a good point to make. Other experts also told the New York Times that removing the small drain plug would not have caused the kayak to fill with water, but waves splashing into the cockpit would have made it unstable. I would agree with that. as an expert as a you're making yourself sound like you're an expert

but I get it it is making some sense you know is it more likely that these waves filled the drain plug and that's what caused the kayak to sink or is it more likely that the waves got in the cockpit

the part where you sit and that's what caused it to capsize. Yeah. On July 24th, 2017, Angelica pleaded guilty to criminally negligent homicide just a few weeks before her trial.

She acknowledged that she took the plug from the kayak and was aware of the rough weather conditions in the river, but she didn't intend to kill Vincent. Now, the removal of the drain plug, does it mean less when all these experts are saying it wouldn't have made a difference? I don't think so because I don't think she knew that. Yeah.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's more about maybe intent. Yeah. Then knowledge. Now, the part that she knew the conditions, the weather conditions were rough, well, so did he. He was there. Right.

He would have known as well. D.A. David Hovler said in a press conferences quoted by the New York Times, there's little direct precedent, if any, in New York. for a homicide conviction for removing a plug from a kayak. There was a multitude of evidence in this case that could go both ways. And that makes a ton of sense to me. I don't know how many cases would involve people removing a drain plug from a kayak. And there really wasn't much physical evidence at all.

You know, this case was mainly based on Angelica's statement. Hoveller acknowledged that she sometimes contradicted herself, and none of the defendant's vacillating statements constituted a direct confession for intentional murder. Vassalating. It's a good word for that. Like Centilla. And maybe that's how you get to the guilty plea of criminally negligent homicide. Hoovler also said, everyone wants more. But in this case, we had to make sure. there was a certain outcome and that somebody was held responsible and that's what we did. There was a very good chance that if this case went to trial, you don't know what a jury was going

to do. And I'll be honest with you. I don't know what I would have done with the evidence if I was a juror. You have some real damning statements. You do. But the physical evidence doesn't seem to really back up the statements. Now, she might have thought she was going to do something by removing this drain plug, but all the experts said that wasn't going to do anything anyway.

I think there would have been some healthy conversations in that jury. Yeah, yeah. On November 8th, 2017, Angelica was sentenced to 16 months to four years in jail. With credit, for two and a half years already served,

her lawyers distributed her written statement to the media. It read, never would I have imagined. Waking up one day and finding myself behind bars, charged with murdering the man I love. This entire process has been incredibly difficult for me. I love Vince very much and miss him terribly. When we went kayaking that day, my intention was for both of us to come home. I am not a murderer. I've said that from the beginning. If I could do anything to bring Vince back. I would. Angelica was released from prison on December 21st, 2017. She faced 16 months of parole and potential deportation to Latvia. Her lawyer, Richard Portali, told the media outside the courthouse, Angelica is so grateful to be here today. She's grateful

for this day. She's excited to be able to reconnect with her family in a meaningful way. She plans to face time her family as soon as we can. She's going to take a deep breath of fresh air and then enjoy a nice steak. After she was released, Angelica told 2020 that she agreed to the plea deal to avoid the risk of a life sentence for a crime she didn't commit. They said, take the plea and get out in December. I went that way because everything is taken as a package. She also said, she didn't feel guilty.

I have to let it go. I can't live with that all the time. I have to let it go. I definitely think she made a good deal. Yeah, you're taking a chance, right? Yeah. Going to trial. Do you want to risk a potential life sentence when you kind of have this other finite set amount of time?

Right. Now, you have to agree to something that you're saying you didn't do. But the alternative is really hard to take a chance on that. Especially with what she had said. Yes. If she hadn't have said any of that stuff, I don't think she has an issue. Right. Regardless of what she did or what she wanted to happen or what she thought was going to happen.

Yeah. Her own words are really what put her in the position she found herself. Absolutely. Richard Portali told 2020 that Vincent was also responsible, saying, I'm not here to blame Mr. Viafore for, for his own. own death. But the truth is, he wasn't wearing a life vest. He wasn't wearing a wetsuit. He didn't have a spray skirt, which would have kept the water out of that cockpit. He knew the plug was out. He knew the waves were high. He knew all of these things. And Ms. Graswold is not his mother. You know,

he's a grown man. And that's really his responsibility. Now, that's kind of rough to say. But there is some truth in it. I don't know if he knew the drain. plug was there or not. But he knew he wasn't wearing a life jacket. That he did know. He knew he didn't have that skirt that you see sometimes around the cockpit. Yeah, to keep the water out. Keeps, that keeps the water out.

Now, maybe he didn't have one. Or didn't want one. Or didn't want one. Vincent's family went to court to prevent Angelica from getting his life insurance money. She said she didn't want the money for herself. She wanted to use it to pay her legal fees. I can understand why her family wouldn't want her to have any of it. Absolutely.

Angelica reached a settlement with the family in August 2018. The terms of the settlement are confidential. She agreed not to pursue an appeal. And the family agreed not to bring a wrongful death claim against her. Good deal for her. According to a family lawyer, under three different policies, Angelica was to receive between $500,000 and $600,000. So we originally talked about a $250,000 policy.

Now we found out that apparently there were three different policies, and it could have been as much as $600,000. $250 is a motive for murder. Oh, yeah. $600,000 isn't even bigger. Absolutely. Motive for me. Yeah, for sure. But as we wrap this one up, Gives, you know, I think why people get so interested in a case like this is because there are quite a few questions on answer. You start out with the statements that Angelica made. She sounds guilty as hell. She does. And then you get to some of the scientific testing and your mind starts to, change a little bit. Yeah.

As to what effect the removal of this drain plug would have had. Now, could she have done something else to affect his drowning? Like we said before, there was only two people there. Right. And only one of them can tell their side of events. But, I mean, they did make it sound like the drain plug really wasn't an issue. And they made it sound like even if he had the paddle, he could. couldn't have used it. Many people feel that justice wasn't served and Angelica should have been

convicted of murder while others believe that Vincent's death was a tragic accident. And I can see people being split on a case like this. You can make a case for each. Now, what is hard to figure out is why she would make the statements that she made that were so incriminating. Not good. Now, was it because she had just been there so long and she eventually, you know, wanted to get out. But then you have to explain why she made some of the statements she made while they were still on the island walking. Maybe it was her lack of English, according to her defense attorney. Well, they did make that claim.

I don't know if I'm buying that one as much. And this whole idea of wanting to be free from the relationship. You know, I don't really understand that in the country. context of wanting someone dead because, you know, like we talked about, they weren't married. Well, he called off the engagement. Yeah. So not being married, she could have just walked away. But what would she have missed out on? It would have been the financial support. Sure. That she was getting from Vincent. So is that where the, you know, half a million dollars or $600,000 in life insurance comes in? I can't just.

just walk away because I'm not working and I'm kind of used to this being supported. But if he drowns, I've got all this money coming into me. So I think that's one way to look at it. The other way is to look at it as, you know, a tragic accident. And without her statements, that would probably be a pretty easy thing to do. It's her direct statements that really kind of snobes. know-balled everything against her. It really did. It's a prime example where you should call your attorney. Well, you know, I'll say this. If she did something to affect his death, as I'm sure Vincent's family believes she did, she got off extremely light with the plea deal.

Sure, she did. Now, if she had nothing to do with it, then, you know, she spent years in jail for something that she didn't do. But by her own omission, it sounds like she had something to do with it. At the very least, she wanted him dead. Yeah. She was okay with him dying. And that's why I think a lot of people believe that she did have a hand in his death. If you're okay with someone dying, are you really trying to make the effort to save them? Is that why you wait as long as you did to call 911. It's like, man, maybe. I wait a little bit.

You're tired. You're drowned. And then I call. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But there's no reason for her to ever come out and say exactly what happened. You know, she's out.

Yeah. And I don't think anything else can happen to her, probably. But there's no reason to shed any light on the situation. And so I think there are going to be some unanswered questions. She calls you up and says, hey, heard the case. I'd like to talk to you about it. What are you doing this weekend? Would you like to go kayaking with me as we talk about it?

Would you say okay or no? No, but we can Zoom. We can have a Zoom call and you can explain it to me. I'm not getting anywhere near the water with you. No, absolutely not. That's it for our episode on Angelica, Graswell. We got voicemail Gibbs. You want to check that out?

Let's hear. Hi, guys. Mike and Gibby. I can't believe I'm doing this. I've been dinging you guys for a long time. I've finally finished the solved cases. And now I'm halfway through the unsolved. I listen to you guys constantly. I know it's not probably healthy. But I take small breaks.

But yeah, I love this podcast. and I wanted to make a suggestion. I'm from East of Cleveland in a little town called Curtland. And in that town had a serial killer, Jeffrey Lundgren. And I can remember being, I don't know, early 20s being in the bar. And the recovery guys came in that had to dig up the bodies. and they were found to volunteer firemen because it's a small little township, and they were just haunted and just sick.

So I don't think I'll forget all that. And so maybe if you have time for it or I don't know if you've already done it, but I know that they did get caught. So just, yeah, love you guys. Keep going and keep your own time ticking. All right. Appreciate the voicemail. I don't think we've done.

on that one. I don't think so either. Look it up. But if not, we'll put it on the list. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike, and get me. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.