True Crime All The Time - Ann Racz

Episode Date: July 6, 2026

In April 1991, Ann Mineko Racz, a devoted mother of three from Valencia, California, disappeared just days after separating from her husband, John, and serving him with divorce papers. She was last seen after dropping her children off at their father's house and telling them she was going to McDonald's to buy dinner. She never returned. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Ann Racz. Although her body has never been found, investigators eventually built a circumstantial murder case against her husband, resulting in his conviction more than 16 years later.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash T-KKKK at start your free trial at shopify.com slash tcatt. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 512 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm okay, man. I mean, got this kidney stone I'm trying to get rid of. But outside of that, I'm good.

How about you? Yeah, yeah, and I'm doing great, feeling good. But yeah, you shocked me with that news yesterday. Well, kidney stone and invading. Never fun. They hurt. Man, I do not like them at all. So I'm feeling for you on that one.

Yeah, I heard it was your birthday, too. Yeah, not today, but yeah, I had my birthday earlier this week. Happy 63rd. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. You're only 10 years off, but sometimes I feel like 83. Do you? Yeah, sometimes.

Sometimes you look like you're 83. Sometimes I do. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that then. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Deborah Love. They love. Amy Howard.

What's going on, Amy? Katie Hogg. Hey, Katie. Karina Flores. Hi, Karina. Ashley Hughes. Thanks, Ashley. Beth Loller jumped out to the highest level.

Love me, Beth. Thank you. Did you say love me? I love me some Beth. But I said, love me, Beth. She's like, okay. And last but not least, Kate Ash. Hey, Kate.

And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Don Black. Hey, Don, appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate all the Patreon support. We also had some great. PayPal support from Jody Reynolds. Look at Jody. Come on over on the top like that.

Yeah, very much appreciated. Very much. I don't think you should be telling people to love you. I mean, in a loving character, like love me. Love me. Very demanding. Love me, damn it. All right.

So we have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about Katie Janice. She and her dog were stabbed at in Piedmont Park and Atlanta. of Georgia in 2021. So this case is not that old. No, it's not. And almost five years later, her murder remains unsolved. And we dive into all the details. And then on Thursday's T-Cat, we're talking about the 1998 murder of five-year-old Quatisha Maycock. This is a horrifying story, Gibbs. She was murdered by a man who her mother befriended. Yeah. Thoughts. was a good guy.

Turned out he was a terrible person. Very terrible. Who had a criminal history longer than yours and much, much more horrible. Yeah. It was a rough one to do, but it's such a good case. Like you said, this guy, his record, the things that he attempted, I'll leave it at that. Yeah. Yeah, we don't want to give too much away, but definitely check it out.

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? Yes, I am. We are talking about Ann Monaco Rott's. In April 1991, Anne Rott served her husband John divorce papers. After 19 years of marriage, four days later, Anne dropped their three children off for a visit with John and left to buy them food. She was supposed to return promptly, but Anne has never been seen or heard from since. Serving divorce papers, that's got to be rough, you know. I mean, look, I've been divorced.

I never had to have the papers served, you know. But if you're serving them or being served, that means maybe you don't know what's coming. Sometimes I think that happens. Like, you just don't know. And then that's how you find out. That would be rough. It would be. Now, maybe you have an inkling that the marriage is not doing great.

But to be surprised with divorce papers, that could really throw somebody for a lose. Ann Monico Rott's was born on January 17th, 1949 in Hawaii, and came from a Japanese-American family. She was married to John Rots, and they shared three children. They lived in the Valencia neighborhood of Santa Clarita, California. Did you ever see that show, the Santa Clarita Diet? I seen, like, previews for it. Yeah, I never watched it.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Drew Barrymore was some kind of vampire or something. I'm trying to think who the guy was in it. Yeah, he was kind of a well-known person, too, but I can't remember. And us not remembering makes for great podcasts. It really does. I was like, you know right now, somebody is listening going. A lot of people are.

It's such and such. Are you guys idiots? Yeah. Why can you not remember? Have you ever heard of Google? Google it while you're on, you know, doing the podcast. No. We never do.

So John was a former L.A. County Sheriff Sergeant, but he retired in the 1980. and worked as an elementary school teacher in Compton. Anne was a devoted and caring mother. She was well known and popular in her community. She spent much of her time volunteering at her children's schools and at Newhall Presbyterian Church. I wish I could volunteer more. I wish you could too.

I just do. I'm like, you notice I didn't say I wish I could volunteer more. I picked up on that pretty quick. I just wish I could find that time and that. energy to do what these good people out there do. Well, to be fair, you and I do donate to our Patreon to some very, very worthy causes, but donating your own time is that next level. It is.

You do have a full-time job and podcast on top of it. That is very true. So you don't have a lot of free time. No. Not to mention the fact that you're engaged to someone who lives in Canada. Well, that is a three-hour drive there and back every weekend, yes. Anne and John were married for 19 years. By 1991, their children, Joanne, Glenn, and Caitlin were 14, 11, and 7 years old, respectively on April 18th, 1991, and separated from John.

She took the kids and moved into a new apartment. The following day, she served him with divorce papers. At the same time, she was seeing another man. and planned to be with him in the future. And then just a few days later, on April 22nd, 1991, Anne disappeared without a trace. That day, Anne dropped the three children off for a visit with John at the family home in Valencia.

She planned to stop at a nearby McDonald's, to buy hamburgers for the children. She was expected to return quickly, but she never did. Anne has not been seen or heard from since she pulled out of the driveway that day. Exactly when and who reported Anne missing is unclear, which we'll get into in depth, right, later in the episode.

What we do know is that police questioned John from the beginning. And he gave an unusual story to investigators. John told the police that Anne had gone on an extended trip, possibly to Japan. On April 22nd, he talked to him and told her he wanted to see their kids. He offered her $25,000 to take a trip and contemplate their marriage. That is kind of a strange story, right? One, you're saying she probably went to Japan because I told her she needed to take some time and think about, you know, leaving me.

And I offered her 25,000 of our money. Right? because it's got to be, I mean, it's still their money. It's still their money. It's a story that I think would, you know, kind of raise some eyebrows if you heard it. Not that it couldn't happen, but is it the most logical? John also claimed that he met with Anne twice in the two days following April 22nd and that she called him from the L.A. airport, notifying him of her travel planes. Now, the one thing that you know is that, you know is that, John's going to be questioned.

There's no way around that. Yeah. He's the husband. He's just been served divorce papers. Okay. Does he have a motive for wanting and debt? Possibly. Sure.

He's got to be questioned. He has to be eliminated as a suspect. But he's saying, look, she called me two days afterwards. She's at the L.A. airport. She told me that she planned on, you know, going here. they're there, right? Taking a trip. Yeah.

Yeah. Detectives attempted to corroborate John's claims, but they suspected Ann was the victim of foul play. And that tells me right away that not only did they think John's story was a little fantastical, they probably didn't really believe him. Yeah. According to the Charlie Project, investigators found a cold pizza sitting on the kitchen table in Anne's condo.

They thought this was odd. Because Anne was said to be a meticulous housekeeper who would not leave food out for long periods of time. You know, who else is a meticulous housekeeper? Not you. Not me, but somebody in this house is. Yeah, your wife. My wife. Yeah.

As much as I talk about, you know, her cooking, she is an unbelievable housekeeper. To my detriment at times because she, you know, I can be lazy. and leave stuff out, and that is a no-go in her book. But she's also the type of person that scrubs dishes and cleans them and then puts them in the dishwasher. Yeah, with soap and everything. I'm like, they're already clean now. Just put them away. Just dry them off and put them away.

And was also not the type of person to go on a trip without telling anyone. In fact, when she went on vacations, she liked to pre-address mailing labels. so she could send postcards to her loved ones. All right. It's a little bit extreme. It is extreme, but it's those things that we talk about, right?

People have routine. Yeah. Now, this is not an everyday thing, but it is a routine in that this is what she does when she, you know, takes trips. She does have a routine when it comes to, you know,

keeping her house clean. And you wouldn't expect a person like that to leave a, a pizza just sitting out on the kitchen table. No. I mean, some people like cold pizza and they'll leave it out overnight. Yeah, preferably cold meaning you put it in the fridge. Not cold as you left it on a table overnight. I've had buddies that would leave it out.

Oh, I did that in college because we didn't have a refrigerator big enough to put the pizza box in. And you were okay, just canceling it with your guy. Oh, at 19, who cares? Yeah. You know, who cares? You probably had enough alcohol on you to kill it anything anyway. To kill any bacteria. But, you know, in my 50s, even in my 40s, 30s, I tend to take food safety a little differently

than I did when I was 19 years old. As you should. And in college, on April 26, 1991, Anne's Plymouth Station wagon was found abandoned at the Van Nuys flyaway park and ride lot for travelers heading to the L.A. airport. there was no sign of her there. Investigators couldn't find Ann's name on any flight manifest. John spoke to the press on May 20th and said his family was in turmoil and reiterated the Sheriff's Department plea for information.

He declined to speculate on whether Ann might have gone back to Japan, saying, per the signal newspaper, I'd just like to say that we'd like her to return home. If she reads this or if anyone knows her wearbys, we'd like her back. But she wasn't on any manifest. And if you're flying international, you would think you'd be on some type of manifest. Yeah. Now, I get it.

It's 1991. It's pre-9-11. Things were a little bit different. But I'm still thinking record-keeping wise, they knew who was on the plane and who wasn't. it's casting a lot of doubt on John's story. But you still have to wonder, how did the car get there? Or why is her car there? Yeah.

Did somebody drive it there? Did she drive it there? In June, Santa Clarita Sheriff's Investigators focused on the Hamburger Hill fast food area in search of evidence. That year, cruise dug at six sites around Soledad Canyon and Spring Canyon roads. they were led to this area by two psychics. In August 1991, authority said that John was not a suspect.

However, papers like the signal reported that moments after and left to get food, John told the kids he was going to the same McDonald's. He returned a short time later with cold food for the children. So she said she was gone. He said, hold on, I'm going to go. I'll be back, kids. and then he comes back with cold food, meaning either did he get the food from that she might have got?

Or was he gone long enough for it to go cold because he was doing something nefarious? And you know McDonald's fries are not good cold. Half the time, they're not good warm. Brother, I got to be honest with you. I'm not here to bash on McDonald's, and maybe it's just the one by my house. but it is real spotty and hit and miss lately.

Yeah. You know, McDonald's fries used to be the end all be all. Right. They are not anymore. When they're fresh, they're amazing. But a lot of the time anymore,

they are not super fresh. It's hard to get fresh ones anymore. It is, which makes no sense because the place is packed at all hours of the day and night. Yeah. I don't know if they're not cooking them long enough. I don't know what's going on.

The whole system is gone. out the window. I do love their Coke, so. Well, I think we've talked about it before. They do have an amazing carbonation system. They do. Second to none. Can I get that carbonation system at home? You probably could. It's going to cost a lot of money. Yeah.

Well, you know me. I'm tight on my funds. Eventually, Anne's case went cold. Fifteen years passed without answers. Police did not officially name John as a suspect, and we said that, right? But they could never rule him

either. So I get it. It's tough to come out and officially say. Yeah. This person is a suspect. I think you have to meet some criteria of having at least some sort of evidence to go out on a limb with that, that type of, you know, proclamation. But they definitely can't rule him out either. There's a lot of smoke there surrounding him. They can leave him as a person of interest. Yeah, absolutely. You know, wife and I just got back from Jamaica for my daughter's wedding. It was so relaxing. So comfortable, part of that was my Quinn's wardrobe. You know, I just keep coming back to Quinn's because they focus on well-made essentials that just naturally become those everyday staples you actually live in all season long. You know, they have 100% European linen pants and shirts that are so breathable. They're easy to

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Detectives were awaiting a search warrant to investigate a possible gravesite. the signal reported that John had since hired an attorney and refused to speak to police. I can't blame him. No. Now, is it because he was just tired of maybe being on the radar for so long? Or was it because things were heating up in the case and he was getting a little worried? Things getting a little too close to home? Maybe.

On July 7, 2006, detective searched John's home in Valencia, but found nothing. to indicate and was buried there. And it's not that people don't do it, but I feel like it's not the smartest thing in the world to murder someone and then bury their body on your own property. That's what Casey said. Yeah, he got away with it for a while. Yeah.

I just feel like it's very hard if it's discovered to make any type of argument that you didn't know about it or you didn't have a hand in it. But think about how many, serial killers did that, right? I mean, I was joking about Gacy, but Gacy and Herb Baummeister. Yeah, a lot of people have done it. The husband, wife, the West family, the couple.

Fred and Rosemary. Yeah, out on their back patio. I mean, it's like. Well, even Ed Kemper. I mean, there's, there are a ton of people. I mean, they're just, I think they don't, they feel like they're never going to get caught. Yeah, I do think that about a lot of killing. A company contracted by the.

the sheriff's department used sonar to search six feet into the ground. There were a couple of spots that indicated a disturbance. The search continued and cement was dug up, but nothing was found. But what it did this dig was prompt investigators to reopen the case. In October 2006, John Rott's was indicted for murder. The grand jury heard from 19 witnesses, including John and Ann's now adult children. John was arrested on October 21st, 2006, as he stepped off a flight from Thailand. Detectives were tipped off about his arrival to the U.S. by Thai officials.

Collaboration. Yeah. Now, is it that he just decided he wanted to visit Thailand? Maybe. Was he running from somewhere? Did he think that was someplace they couldn't get him? I don't know. Yeah.

Maybe he just like going over the tie land. Maybe. Captain Ray Peavy was the one who ordered Anne's case to be reopened. He told the LA Times after the arrest, we attempted to eliminate him as a suspect, which we would do in any case involving the death of a spouse. We were never able to eliminate him. In fact, the harder we looked at the case and the more information we gained, the better he looked as a suspect.

Which makes sense, right? I don't know how you could arrest somebody for murder just because you're unable to eliminate them. You've got to have more than that. But as you take each look deeper and deeper and that person becomes a greater suspect or person of interest, then, you know, obviously you're going to shift your mindset. PV acknowledged that detectives still had work to do in building their case because Anne's body had not been found. And we know that, right? We've heard it time and time again. The nobody cases are harder.

They're being prosecuted more and more and have been over the years, but I still think they're a little tougher. John's attorney denied that he was involved and accused one of the original detectives of having a personal crusade against his client. John pleaded not guilty to murder. During his first court appearance, the trial started with jury selection on June 18th, 2000.

During the selection process, the defense characterized Ann as unhappy and tired of the responsibilities of raising children. They also alluded to a year-long affair with her high school sweetheart that started in 1990. John didn't learn of this affair until a year after Anne left. According to the defense, Anne moved herself and the kids out on April 18, 1991 while John was at work. She served him divorce papers the next day. They went to marriage counseling over the weekend and met in the driveway of the home. On the day of Anne's disappearance, John told Anne he would give her $25,000 to use while traveling and contemplating their marriage. Here's $25,000.

Take it. Travel. Back to your point. I mean, they haven't split assets at that juncture. Also, though, $25,000. is a ton of money in 1991. Sure was. Now, traveling to Japan, I'm sure, is not cheap.

No, it's going to cost you some money there, too. But the prosecution called this story nonsensical and described John as a controlling husband who was not going to let Anne leave him. Opening statements began on June 21st. Prosecutors maintained that John killed Ann on April 22nd, 1991. Deputy DA John Lewin,

relied on circumstantial evidence and logic to build the case. It's all they had. Yeah, he doesn't have a lot in the way of physical evidence. Number one, he doesn't have a body. And so it's hard to have a ton of physical evidence, I think, without the body. Lewin told the jury is quoted by the LA Times, whether you have a body or not, it's clear she's dead. And once you agree she's dead, it's clear she died on April 22nd.

1991. He's trying to use that logic. Yeah. But and I think if you're a juror, okay, it does make some sense. You know, we don't believe this is a woman who just ran off and left her kids. And since nobody has seen her since April 22nd of 1991, can you assume that that's when she died? Well, like you said, you know, she's got kids. And there's nothing that, we saw in the research that said she doesn't want to be with her kids. She absolutely adored her kids. Well, and also, there was an affair going on and she had plans to be with someone else. Yeah. So she's leaving that person behind as well if she just takes off to start a new life. Doesn't make sense. It doesn't. The jury heard that Anne lived in fear of John throughout their marriage. she told friends he threatened to kill her if she dared to leave him.

The prosecution also pointed out conflicts with John's original statements to investigators as well as to friends and family. He claimed he met Anne on April 24th at a restaurant to give her $7,000. As part of the total $25,000, he planned to give her for her travels. He claimed Anne called him from the airport. But John's claims that he was in contact with Anne after April 22nd fell apart under scrutiny. According to Deputy D.A. Lewin, you would have to believe that Anne Rott's, who was a dedicated mother, abandoned her children and disappeared with no word to anyone in her life. But the one person she's afraid of and doesn't want to see anymore, he's the only one she's talking to.

It's absurd. It is. It's unbelievable. It is. I think that that word or that term nonsensical really does fit. Yeah. It just does not make sense. She didn't like this man. She didn't want to be married to this man anymore. Yet, of all the people, friends and family, he's the only person she's going to talk to after April 22nd. Yeah. The prosecution also noted that Anne was reported missing by her pastor who had been giving the couple marriage counseling and was familiar with Anne's fears. So there's some accountability right there, right? He's saying what you're hearing about her being afraid of him is true. Yeah, according to him. Also, he's the one reporting her missing. Yeah, not her soon to be ex-husband. No, but why would he if he's talking to. talking to her right in the days after.

Yeah, true. But if those claims start to fall apart, then everything starts to fall apart. In their opening statement, the defense reiterated their claim that Anne was unhappy with her marriage. They alluded to a 1991 statement from the Ratz's oldest daughter, Joanne, who was 14 at the time, in which she recalled Anne speculating that maybe she would just leave. and perhaps the family would be better off without her. At first, no one thought she was serious.

And, and you know, let's be honest, a lot of people have probably made off-the-cuff statements like that. Yeah. In a, in a moment of anger or,

you know, disappointment or fear or whatever it is, it doesn't mean they want to do it or are going to do it, but they've said things like that. it happens you guys would be better off if i just left right i mean who hasn't said that i don't think i have but i'm sure a lot of people have people do say things like they do they don't really mean it and most people don't fall through no those are just kind of quick off the cuff type of anger remarks that very quickly go away it's like me over here on pizza night saying

can't believe you got mushrooms and olives again i'm leaving and then, you know, quickly turn back around, sit down and eat the pizza as mushrooms and olives off. Yeah. I mean, you pick the mushrooms and olives off, but you're not going to miss a free meal. Yeah, I mean, it's steam still coming off the pizza. That's one thing we know about you. Yes. Anne's pastor Glenn Thor, who started marriage counseling with the couple in 1990, said that Anne was a faithful loving mother who was threatened by her husband and confided in her pastor that John threatened her by saying, ever leave me, I'll find you. No matter where you go, I'm going to stop you. There's those threats again that I cannot stand. It's like, people, if you don't want to be with somebody, or more importantly, if someone doesn't want to be with you, let them go. Why are you holding on to them

for? Yeah, I don't understand that mentality. I really don't. You know, if I thought someone didn't like me, didn't want to be friends with me, didn't want to be married to me. The last thing I would do is threaten them to stay. Yeah. I already know they're not happy. Why would I want them to stay if they're not happy? But I think, you know, some of these individuals, they just have that mentality that they're not going to lose. Right. They're not going to give in, regardless of the feelings of the other person, it's almost like those feelings don't matter. No, they don't. What I care about matters, and I want you to stay.

I don't care if you're happy or not. And if you try to leave, then something bad is going to happen. Yeah, because that's real love right there, right? It may be in their mind, in some warped way it is. I don't know. Anne also told him that John threatened to kill her. According to the signal, Pastor Thorpe described Anne as a love. loving caring woman who really loved life, loved her children, loved her faith, and was a giving

person. So this loving, caring woman that loved her children, loved her faith, was this going to walk away from all that? But, and you also have to, you know, wonder how this testimony by the pastor is, is coming across. You would think most people would find a person like this pretty credible. Yeah, it comes with some credibility for sure. Now, there's a hearsay angle of it. Yes. Right? She told him he's telling the court, but do you place a little more accuracy on a pastor than maybe you do other people, especially people who have maybe an extra grind or have a reason for saying something? And I would say most people probably would and had long felt controlled by John and was forced to do things she didn't want to do, she felt suffocated.

And this is the pastor talking. He said the control extended into their sex life. Thorpe also said he filed a missing person's report on May 1st, which contradicted John's claims that he reported and missing. Well, what you don't want to be, you don't want to be the husband that doesn't report your missing spouse and somebody else does because that's not going make you look good. Well, and it also doesn't make you look good because of the scenario, right? She says, I'm going to McDonald's to get the kids some food. I'll be back. And then she doesn't come back. Yeah. You don't find that odd. But yet you run to McDonald's and get the kids some food and come back. And she's still not back. You didn't see her at McDonald's. So at that point,

would you not think something has happened? At a certain point, you would. Right. Now, we said it, right? It was a little bit gray as far as who reported who missing, but obviously we have the pastor testifying that he did. Other character witnesses testified that Ann was a loving and dedicated mother who volunteered at her children's school and was involved in their after-school activities. She would never abandon her children for years without contacting them. And I feel like that about most mothers,

there are some who do it. We've seen it happen. But by and large, most mothers would never abandon their children. No, it'd be tough. Peter Dana, the retired principal of the elementary school, where John taught after retiring from the police force, testified that John lied about filing a missing person's report. On April 18, 1991, John called him and said his wife had taken the kids and left him and asked him and asked him, and asked for some time off work. John was emotional and asked a series of out-of-place questions, such as, do you think that I'm the kind of guy who would be violent? Do you think I'm a mean person?

Do you think I'm the kind of person who would hurt someone? Those would be strange questions to ask. Yeah. If I asked you those questions about me, you would probably think, what did you do this time? Yeah. I mean, first of all, I would answer yes to all three.

But then after that, it would be like, okay, why are you even bringing this stuff up? Right. When you're just asking for some time off work and you said your wife has taken the kids. How does this play in? It's a little bit too much information or are you trying to initially plant something in my head that your wife took the kids and left? But then you follow up with these strange questions. Like I can see if he called and said, hey, I need to take some time off. My wife left me and took the kids.

Left it at that. But to go into this series of questions about am I a violent person, do I do this? Do I do that? What's the reason behind it? John didn't come back to work until April 29. Dana noticed a one to two inch scratch on John's jaw towards his neck. John also didn't reveal that Anne was missing until May 18th. And that's when he indicated he filed a missing person's report.

So that is about a month later. Yeah. That's a long time to wait to even talk about a missing person's report or say that Anne is missing. And that's if he actually even did file one. Exactly. The jury heard that the day before she went missing, and wrote a letter to her longtime friend and secret lover, Robert Russell, about their relationship,

and she expressed relief about moving out of her family home and her pending divorce. Russell testified that he and Anne made plans prior to her moving out. He planned to sell his house in Northern California to move with his daughter into a home with Anne and her children. They were going to visit Disneyland with their kids. in June 91. So they had a plan. They had a number of plans. So again, if you're looking at the probability that Anne just kind of up and left,

does it seem more likely or less likely knowing that she had what appeared to be a good relationship with this guy? They made plans to move in together. I'm not buying it. No, me neither. Anne also told Russell her husband was abusive, and she was afraid he would retaliate. Now, Russell didn't push for details. He testified that Anne wanted to move quickly and silenced.

If John was actually the type of guy she said he was, then you would want to avoid any confrontational run-ins. Yeah, because I think she knew he was not going to take it well. And John reportedly had an heated argument after me. meeting with Pastor Glenn Thorpe to discuss custody of their kids the day after the divorce papers were served. And told Russell about the argument over the phone. She wrote in her April 21st letter to Russell, which was postmarked April 22nd. I'm exclusively yours. You've always had my love. I will never have sex with John again. I will never touch him again. I'm free. Neighbor Thomas Deirdorf testified that he was washing his car in the driveway.

on April 22nd, 1991, when he saw John and Ann talking to each other in their front yard, Anne drove away. He flagged her down to ask about a babysitting arrangement and told him she had to get the kid something to eat. Shortly after she left, John drove down the street. Deirdorf said John seemed intent and did not wave in his direction something he normally did. Like John had, was on a mission. Yeah, like he was hyper-focused. Yeah.

Members of Ann's Bible study group testified that she shared her plans to leave John. During an April 16th meeting, she expressed fear about the fact that John kept guns in their home. Remember, Pat Cottrell testified that Ann told stories of how John would sit alone in the dark planning the perfect crime. Scary. Very scary. I don't know what all's involved with sitting in the dark. quote unquote planning the perfect crime, but not something I sit around doing. No.

But clearly she knew she was leaving him. She told many people that she was leaving him. Yes. You know what her plans were? You know what she didn't tell many people? Was that she was going to just completely leave and run away. Exactly. And do you think she'd have told maybe one person?

And see, that's another thing that always gets me. Yeah. This is not a woman who, you know, didn't have friends, wasn't sharing information with a multitude of people. Yeah. But yet the one thing she's actually going to do, according to John anyway, she decides to completely keep hidden from everyone she knows. Just tell him that she's leaving. Yes. Yeah.

The one person she's not comfortable being around. The jury also heard from Anne's daughter, Joanne, who was one of the last people to see her alive, and picked her up from school. On April 22nd, then picked up her brother, Glenn. Then the youngest daughter, Caitlin, from a Girl Scouts meeting, she drove them to see their father. According Joanne is quoted by the signal. She told us that she needed to talk to my dad, and we were to go in the house and wait. Ann parked in the garage, she stayed in the car and the kids went inside. John came outside and talked to Ann through the open window. About 15 minutes later, Joanne went into the garage and saw them still talking.

According to Joanne, it seemed like a normal talk, and they appeared to be getting along. She asked when they were going to eat. Anne said she was going to McDonald's to get them food. Joanne went back inside. then John came into the house and announced he was going to get them food. She never saw Anne leave the driveway. And that's an interesting statement. Yeah.

But we know she did based on what the neighbor said. But here's the one daughter saying, look, mom said she was going to go get his food. And then next time I know dad's coming in and said, nope, he's going to go get us food. And that's the last thing that she recalls. and we know from the neighbor, both of them went down the road. You know, she said she was going to go to McDonald's. We don't know what his intentions were besides what he told the kids, but we know that he was focused and didn't want to stop for the neighbor.

Joanne testified that she didn't have a clear recollection of how long John was gone, but the food was cold when he returned. Joanne said she expected her mother to return to pick them up because they were going to have pizza in the new apartment that night. Instead, they spent the night with their dad without their clothes or backpacks with their school supplies, which were left in Anne's car.

So that's another thing, right? You would have to believe that Anne left her children and took all their school books, their backpacks, uh, all their school supplies, all that stuff with her. Yeah.

when she didn't need to, she could have left that behind. Right. Now, you know, she talks about how they were supposed to go back to the new apartment, have pizza. And when they check-in's apartment, they found pizza in there. Now, how'd that get there? Was that place before they left? Was that something that somebody, you know, knew that the kids thought they were going to have

pizza when they came home and went out and placed it in the apartment? Yeah, it's a great question. on April 23rd, Joanne returned to her dad's home to find the school books, backpacks, and her makeup kit that she left in Ann's car on the kitchen table. John claimed Ann dropped them off. So now you have to believe that Anne ran away. At some point, she realized she had all the kids stuff. And she came back to John's house and said, here's all the kids stuff.

Yeah. This is where all his stories. don't add up. And it's where just nothing really makes sense. It just doesn't. John told her that Ann told him they wanted to stay with him. And she went away to think, but he gave no further details. Joanne worried about her mother and called friends and family later that day. Joanne testified she was worried because they had just moved. And she knew Anne was not planning a trip anytime soon. She didn't believe her dad. And she persisted in. questioned him about where Anne might be.

She was so frustrated that she theorized her mom must be dead during a May 1991 interview with investigators. Wow. And I think that says a lot if you're investigator. It does. Into the mindset of, you know, the child that she's of the opinion, no way mom would leave, she must be dead. In the months and years that followed Anne's disappearance, her dad showed little interest

and Anne's whereabouts and efforts to assist investigators. He told Joanne to let it go and repeated the claim that Anne abandoned the family. And I don't know, Gibbs. I've never been divorced. I understand that it could be really tough. But I feel like even if the divorce was contentious. Yeah. If that person was missing, knowing that they're still the mother of your children,

at some point you'd have to put any animosity you had aside and you'd have to be worried about her. Of course. One, you have a history with that person. And secondly, more importantly, that's the mother of your kids. And to tell your daughter to let it go, how are you just going to let it go that mom is no longer around? You can't say something like that. You shouldn't say something like that. John told Joanne that he met with Anne on April 23rd and April 23rd and April.

24th. However, Joanne didn't think it was in John's character to have given Ann thousands of dollars because he was said to be extremely frugal. And I am looking at someone who I know is extremely frugal. And I don't even know frugal captures it. So if you had any type of story that revolved around you giving someone, you know, especially your ex-y, thousands and thousands of dollars willingly, color me skeptical. You used the word willingly. Yeah. Aside from any court-ordered money that you have to give her.

There's a big difference. There is a big difference there. But you know what I'm saying? Like, if you came to me and said, I gave her some money to go take a trip and nobody's ever heard from her again, yeah. Yeah. I'm probably going to be testifying at your trial.

Yeah. You're like, here's a number to a good defense attorney. Because that story's not adding up at all. I got to be honest with it. Judith Carter, a divorce lawyer and personal friend of Ann's, testified that Anne said she didn't love John and had told him so, but she was still afraid of him. When asked how John responded to Anne's confession that she didn't love him, Carter testified that Anne told her he was trying to change, but it was too late.

And she wanted out of the marriage. and talked to Carter about an argument. She and John had in the summer of 1990, John was so angry he broke his hand by pushing on the door, which scared Anne. I do think Anne was scared, you know, based on all the different things she said.

Now, could she have been lying? Yeah, I guess possibly. But she was confiding in a lot of different people, including a pastor, her pastor. Yeah,

I mean, there's a lot of people. putting new. And are corroborating her story. Right. You know whose story is not able to be corroborated? Yeah, John. John's. Nancy Newhall, a Valencia resident who knew Ann through the HOA, testified that on April 25th, 1991, she saw Ann driving near the intersection of Wiley Canyon Road and Lyons Avenue in Newhall. They acknowledged each other. However, it seems that this remains, an unconfirmed sighting. People can be confused on what they see when they saw it and who they thought it was. They thought it was somebody and it turns out not to be. The jury later heard from Ann and John's other children, Glenn and Caitlin, who testified

about their experiences with John after their mom went missing. In closing arguments, the prosecution told the jury that John's story just doesn't work. John was the only one with the motive, means, an opportunity to kill Anne. John didn't want her to get half of the estate, and he knew of her affair with Robert Russell. Prosecutor Beth Silverman argued that John followed Ann to McDonald's, and he knew of the undeveloped area near the McDonald's, and he had all week to dispose of the body. He had plenty of time to set up a cover-up. Man, so many times. Gibbs. It just comes back to love slash hate, divorce, custody, money.

Yeah. So many stories do. It's like a repeat. Well, money is such a big thing. It is. To so many people. Now, I'm still surprised that so many people decide to kill for money. I understand money's important. But to kill for it. But to make the decision that it's more important in somebody's life, that's a tough one. Especially somebody you're supposed to have loved at one point or still love. And you have kids with them. So you are taking away if you're the killer, your kids is mom. Yeah.

And you're changing the trajectory of their life and altering it. Not in a good way. No. There's no way it's in a good way. The defense argued that there wasn't enough evidence to convict John beyond a reasonable doubt. The investigation was incomplete and John was blamed from the beginning. They also pointed out inconsistencies and witness statements throughout the case. And I'll be honest, you know, this is a pretty much a circumstantial case. They can't 100% give say that Ann is dead.

Now, you can theorize it by the fact that nobody has seen or heard from her. since 1991. Yeah. In the prosecution's rebuttal, Deputy DA John Lewin called Joanne Rots, one of the heroes in this case. Lewin said, does anybody think that if there was any way

Joanne could have provided something to help her father, she would have provided it. She got up here and told you what happened. Lewin noted that Glenn's testimony differed from his siblings and that he was not going to say anything that would hurt his dad's case. Lewin also argued that the defense poisoned the minds of the children with the letters

between Anne and her lover, Robert Russell. So it's interesting, right? You've got three children. Right. One gets up on the stand and appears to be pretty accurate in saying what they know to have happened. The older, more mature one. Yeah.

Now you have some more. who doesn't want to hurt their dad's case. Right. It's kind of hard for me to fault, you know, someone in that position. I mean, who wants to see either of their parents go to jail, really? No, I mean, it's your mom and your dad. You love them both, right? You don't want to hurt either one.

And I'm sure there's a doubt, right? Or you may be sure that your dad would not have done it. Well, if the defense attorneys are going to read you these letters that your mom wrote some other guy that could put some doubt in your head. Why would she talk to that guy like this? Why would she say things like that? Why would she want to hurt dad? On August 22nd, 2007, John Rotz was convicted of first-degree murder. Deputy DA, Beth Silverman, said outside court, per the Monterey Harold, given that she had filed for divorce, moved out of her husband's house four days before she disappeared, served him with papers, three days,

before she disappeared and told a number of her friends, how afraid she was of him. Yeah, I think it was a fairly compelling case. Well said. Yeah, I think it is. Now, defense attorney Philip Israel's argued that John was at a disadvantage

because he was charged many years after the alleged crime. He said, I think the fact is that after 16 years, there were witnesses that were lost. There was an investigation that was almost impossible. to do. Israel noted that the absence of the body was one of several important elements missing from the prosecution's case. He said there was no crime scene. There was no murder weapon. There were no witnesses and no opportunity. Now, there were no witnesses to the actual murder.

Right. But I would argue with the fact that there was no opportunity. And there were witnesses, right? The neighbor saw him pull out right after Ann. That's right. going the same way. The kid said he said he was going to McDonald's right after Ann said she was going to McDonald's. So there were some witnesses. But I think he's saying there's no body. So you don't know how she died. There were no witnesses to the crime.

And that is all true. And you can say there's no murder weapon, like he said. But we don't know what the murder weapon would be because we don't have a body. But sometimes those are things that a jury really wants to know. first of all, prove to us that she's dead. Now, after 16 years, I think some jury members can easily believe, hey, this person is not alive, but there's going to be people that have trouble with that. On September 14, 2005, John was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.

He said in court, all my life, I tried to be a good husband to Ann, my wife. She's still my wife. When Anne left, she left on her own. I did not kill my wife. I raised my children the best I could. I'm a good father. I love Anne and I love my children. And honestly, what else is the guy going to say?

Yeah. Even if he did do it, there's no reason for him to come out and say he did it. If Anne did run away, which is unlikely. I think it's unlikely. Well, let's say she did. She doesn't seem like the type of person. that would allow her children's father to be arrested and charged with murder and sent to jail. That's a great point.

Right. I mean, she just didn't seem like that was her personality. Well, that's a great point because you would have to believe that she was okay with that because I'm sure she would have been following the news. She was okay with this new boyfriend who she, I'm. obviously had a great deal of affection for her. She planned on moving in with him, never talking to him again. Right. And she would be okay with never talking to her kids again. And this is kind of the problem I have is that if you want to run away, run away. But why does that

have to preclude you from reaching out to your children and saying, hey, just want you to know, I had to get away. I can't do it anymore. I still love. you, but I'm okay. And the same with her boyfriend or whatever. That's why it just doesn't make sense that she would just run away because she adored her kids. Everybody said so. And she would not want to put them through that she's possibly missing and then turn around and have them have to go through the rest of their days knowing that their dad's locked up in prison. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I just don't believe that that's the case most of the time. You know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, this is a case where the prosecution relied heavily on circumstantial evidence.

But as they stated in their argument, John was the only one with the motive, means, an opportunity to kill his wife. And I think they also had all these people who came forward to talk about how Anne expressed fear that her husband would kill her. And I'm sure all of that, right, went a long way with the jury. I do think this is a case depending on the jury maker. It's not a slam dunk that you're going to get a conviction in this type of case. No, it's a tough way to go.

I could easily see one juror holding out because they're just not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. They want that smoking gun type of evidence. In this case just doesn't have it. Yeah. Although this case is technically solved. As of the airing of this episode, Anne's body still has never been found. I just think Gibbs, you know, if he did do it as he was convicted, right, of having killed her, I do think it was about control.

It was about money. He was mad she was leaving him. He was mad that she was moving on with this other man. I mean, we see it time and time again. some of these people just cannot handle the fact that they're losing control, someone doesn't want to be with them anymore. I get it. It's a bad situation.

Yeah. But it's not the end of the world. No. And it's certainly no reason to kill your wife, to kill the mother of your children. And how you even make that decision, I will never understand. If we do this podcast for 20 more years, I'm never going to understand it. Yeah. Just move on with your life.

Exactly. Exactly. If this would happen today, we would know more, I think, because all the cameras and stuff, right? Because, you know, through McDonald's and getting to McDonald's and back from McDonald's and how did her car end up down at the airport, I think we would have maybe some visuals to go with that. Yeah, I'm right with you. I think the video evidence alone would probably go a long way. Yeah.

Either she made it to McDonald's. He was right after her, followed her out, or she never made it to McDonald's at all. Right. And then he comes back to McDonald's 45 minutes later, or he gets the McDonald's right then and there, but doesn't come back home for like 45 minutes to an hour, right? you can, you would have much more of a definitive timeline. Right. And same with his stories about seeing her again on the 23rd and the 24th.

Maybe that would be collaborated with, you know, some ring cameras or... And maybe cell phone. Cell phone. Evidence. Exactly. Exactly. Cell phone data, perhaps. But that's it for our episode on Ann Rodts.

We got a voicemail. You want to check that out? Let's hear it. Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Julie calling from Hamilton, Ontario. Canada. I'm just listening to your Joel Guy Jr. podcast, and I just wanted to say, while I was watching that trial live on TV, I know it's a weird thing to do, but for some reason I enjoy watching live trials, someone had mentioned the reason he didn't have time to clean

everything up, finish everything he wanted to do, including get rid of that notebook, was because it took him longer than he had anticipated, and he thinks that somebody may have gotten a little suspicious, and he ran out of time to clean up before people started to notice that his parents were missed. So that made a lot of sense to me, but it also made sense that, yeah, he probably did get really cut up during all of the stabbing that he was doing. But yeah, I just found that interesting too that, you know, you go to such lengths to leave a notebook for yourself of all the things you need to do. And then you don't clean up and leave all the evidence that points to yourself. So, yeah, I just wanted to call in and leave that message.

I love you guys. Your banter is amazing. And, yeah, keep up the good work. And keep your own time picking. Have a great day. Bye-bye. All right. Thanks for the voicemail.

We love you too. Do. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. right to detail out everything in this notebook but then follow some of it and not all of it yeah maybe it's because he didn't have time yeah felt rushed do you sometimes feel rushed i do during coitus especially during quartus corpus oh i guess with that we probably just should leave it all right buddy that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike

Ghibie. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.