True Crime All The Time - Arlis Perry

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

In October 1974, 19-year-old newlywed Arlis Kay Perry was brutally murdered inside Stanford Memorial Church on the campus of Stanford University. For more than four decades, investigators pursued leads, explored bizarre theories, and repeatedly returned to one man who had been present that night. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Arlis Perry. Advances in DNA technology finally revealed the identity of the killer, bringing long-awaited answers to Arlis's family, though justice itself would never be served.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash teacat. Go to Shopify.com slash teacat. That's Shopify.com slash T-C-A-T-T. Hello, everyone and welcome to episode 507. of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? Doing great. You and I took a week off. We got rested. But I went to Jamaica. My daughter got married.

You went to Greece. I did. Got engaged. And got engaged. I know. So we had good times, but also, you know, got a little rest and relaxation in. And now we're ready to go for the rest of the year. That's right. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Oh, yeah. We're talking about Arles Perry. Arles Kay Perry was a 19-year-old newlywed who was murdered inside Stanford Memorial Church on the university's campus. Her murder was unsolved for more than 40 years before police named a perpetrator.

That's a long time. It is. But, you know, you and I have a channel where we do unsolved cases. And at the end, we normally talk about, you know, what is the likelihood that a case will be solved? And there are a lot of factors to that. Oftentimes, if there's no DNA, there's nothing, there's no evidence to speak of, well, we're a little bit less optimistic. True. About a case being solved.

But, you know, you cannot say that any case is unsolvable. Because we've seen a lot of them be solved that, frankly, many people thought, never would be. That's very true. Arliss was born on February 22nd, 195. She was the youngest of three children. She grew up in Bismarck, North Dakota, where she met her future husband, Bruce Perry. The two were high school sweethearts. Oh, the old high school sweetheart. You got a couple of those that you just got married. Yeah. My daughter and her husband, they started dating I was 10 years ago, they were freshmen, sophomores in high school. Yeah.

It's just, it's amazing because you've watched her grow up. Absolutely. And you've been around him for 10 years now. And he's been part of the family for a long time. Bruce told the Peninsula Times Tribune that Arles was a quiet, shy person who liked to sew, cook, and read. They were both religious and like to take walks and go to church to pray. sometimes late at night.

You ever been to North Dakota? I've been to South Dakota. I didn't get to North Dakota. Was that the question I asked? Because I don't believe it was. You've been to Texas? I've been to New Mexico. Yeah.

So the answer is no. I bet to Texas Roadhouse. No. I'm just joking. So the answer is no. I've never been to North Dakota either. Actually, I've never been to South Dakota either, if you're wondering. Yeah.

You should go. We have some good listeners. in both North and South Dakota that came to the CrimeCon. Yeah. So they'd be happy to have you over there. Maybe, maybe not. You're making assumptions. I do that a lot.

On August 17th, 1974, Arliss and Bruce got married in North Dakota. In late August, they moved to California. Bruce was a sophomore pre-med student at Stanford. The newlyweds lived in Quillan Hall in Escondido Village. Arles got a job as a receptionist at a local law firm. So, I mean, you just kind of look at them. They're young, newlyweds, but it seems like they've got a pretty bright future ahead of them. Seems like it.

You know, Bruce is pre-med. I think they have a plan. Yeah. Is what it seems like to me. Got to have a plan. Yeah. But Arles and Bruce were married for just under two months before she died. Arliss was murdered on the night of October 12, 1974.

Around 11.30 p.m., she and Bruce got into an argument about their car's tire pressure. Police deem this argument insignificant. Just trying to imagine what that conversation would be like, you know, was it him or her that was upset that the tire had too little or too much pressure? I wanted it at 28. She wants it at 32. Yeah. We meet in the middle at 30, maybe. I don't know. Damn it, how many times I have to tell you? 30 PSI.

Why did you push it over that? But I think Gibbs, you know, anybody who is in a relationship, has ever been in a relationship, you know, there are some arguments that really are petty. They don't, you know, they're not what you would think of as subjects that would require an argument, but one breaks out. It just happens. I have been in arguments that I have stopped the argument. argument and said, why are we arguing about this again? Because it doesn't matter. It makes no sense. Right. Arlis told her husband that she wanted to pray alone inside Stanford Memorial Church. And so they parted ways. And maybe that's probably not unusual, right? You get into an argument,

all right, let's take a break, cool off, everybody go their separate ways. And that could just be different places of the house. In this case, she wants to go to church. But Bruce became worse. around midnight and he started walking around the campus looking for his wife. He called the Stanford police to report her missing at 3 a.m. Officers from the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Office went to the church and reported that all the outer doors were locked. Okay. What do you make of that?

I mean, sounds like no one's getting in. Nobody's getting out. Yeah. Or you could, if you're the police, maybe think, well, maybe. Well, maybe she came, but it was locked and couldn't get in. So now we got to start or change our search to somewhere else. Wide in that perimeter. Maybe.

At 545 a.m. on October 13th, campus security guard Stephen Crawford found Arles's body in the church's east transept near the altar. She was face up with her hands folded across her chest. An ice pick was sticking out of the back of her head. But the handle had broken off and was missing. This isn't a church. Yeah. Sounds like brutal. You know, someone coming at you probably didn't see it coming.

It sends it to the back of the head. I think that's a good assumption. And how hard do you have to hit somebody with an ice pick to break the handle off? I don't know, but ice picks are pretty dangerous if you think about how sharp they are. There were also signs of strangulation. Arles was nude from the waist down and had been. been sexually assaulted, a three-foot-long altar candle was inserted into her body. Okay.

And another was placed between her breasts. Her jeans were arranged across her legs in a diamond pattern. I mean, this is such a strange scene, not to mention the fact that it's brutal and it's sad, but it's also very strange, it's a strange murder scene. It's almost reminds me of a scene from that one of those. Dan Brown books. Yeah. Or like seven or, you know, something like that where you have a very, I get where you're going

with the Dan Brown because of the religious angle because this happens in the church. Investigators found semen on a kneeling pillow near the body. A partial palm print was taken from one of the candles. All right. So on the surface, you would think that's some pretty good evidence. Well, they are lucky that they have the evidence that they do have because we've done plenty of cases where they don't have a fraction of what this investigator will have. Yeah, I mean, it is 1974, right? So they're limited, at least with what they can do with semen.

There's no DNA or, you know, or anything like that. So, but we know what that would do today. Oh, absolutely. To an investigation. It would mean a lot of things. It doesn't mean that you would automatically be able to solve the case, but you definitely have a leg up. There's no doubt about that.

Witnesses saw Arles inside the church at about 11.35 p.m. Stephen Crawford told the visitors that the church would be closing in 15 minutes. He locked up the building around midnight, and he didn't see anyone inside. He rechecked the doors at 2 a.m. and they were still locked. So that kind of explains, right? The police go. Yeah. They had locked the doors to the church thinking, okay, everybody's left and we're going to lock it up. Then Stephen returned to the church at 5.45 a.m. to open it up for the day and found the west side door open. It had been forced open from the inside. Okay. So somebody on the inside forced it open to get out of there. Yes, which tells me

maybe they were both locked in there at the time that the crime occurred. Just hiding from when Stephen looked in earlier. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Or maybe the crime had already occurred before he locked the doors, but the perpetrator was being quiet.

Yeah. And then didn't realize that he was going to lock the doors. And then at some point figured out, oh, I got to get the heck out of here. So I got to figure out how to force. he's open. Police told the press that the murder had all the earmarks of a sex crime. That doesn't surprise me at all. No. Under sheriff Tom Rosa said they discounted reports that the murder was a ritual killer. I mean, it was kind of set up that way. Yeah, I mean, I could understand why maybe you would think that's an angle that I think at the very least has to be explored. Like we mentioned,

And it's a strange crime scene. On top of the fact that it has occurred inside of a church. I mean, you could go to the other angle, too, they made it to look like that to try to throw investigators off. Yeah, absolutely. Many Stanford students were fearful and said they no longer felt safe on campus. And again, we've talked about it so many times. That's going to happen anytime you have. have a brutal murder in a community.

Yeah. You know, depending on how large the community is, but if you're talking about a campus, and some of the campuses can be large, right, and have a lot of people. But either way, when you hear that somebody's killed, murdered in the way that we talked about, how could students not be fearful? There's a killer on the loose. Yeah. And he's killing it inside of a church.

Yeah. So like that, you always think, if I need. a safe haven. I can go to a church. You don't expect that to happen at a church. Right. You really don't. And I think because of that, you know, we have to keep in mind. What does

that mean? Does that mean that the person followed Arles to the church, into the church? I can't imagine that a killer is just laying in wait at church for somebody to come in. Seems strange. That does seem like a strange place to try.

to find a victim, if that's what you're, you know, what you're trying to do. Bruce Perry was an early suspect, but was soon ruled out. He was said to have been cooperative from the beginning with police. Bruce spoke to the press a few days after the murder and said, he told the police he believed Arlis was locked inside the church and wanted her to be woken up if she had fallen asleep, but no one checked inside. So he, you know, he's relaying this as when he reported her missing, he must have said, hey, she went to the church.

I'm worried that she fell asleep and they locked the doors and she's still in there. Yeah. You can see that happening. Yeah. Now, how carefully are they checking to see, you know, who's in the church? I don't know. Chief Marvin Harrington of the Stanford Department of Public Safety said the call was received and officers checked the area.

The exterior doors were locked. there were some women walking in the area, but none of them were harmless. And, you know, if you're looking at the police here, I don't know that there's any blame to be placed on them. I don't think so. It's not like they discounted the call. They took it. They checked in at the church. The doors were locked.

What else were they going to do? I mean, I feel like they did their diligence. Bruce also noted that he took a light. detector test on October 14th and was clear. And we know how much they loved their lie detector tests in the 70s. Oh, man. Loved him. He said, whoever did this has to be insane.

And to me, it's a very interesting quote. Because I have a feeling, you know, when you're talking about the 60s, the 70s, that was a natural thought. No one but an insane person. would commit this kind of crime. Right. Now, we know today because crimes have been studied and, you know, we know a lot more about it that not everyone who does this is insane.

Some people just decide they want to either feel what it's like to kill someone. That's always the scary one to me. Or, you know, they have a compulsion or whatever. There's a lot of different reasons why people choose to. commit murder, but they're certainly not all insane. No. Santa Clara, Clary? Santa Clara?

Or Clara? Yeah. County officials ruled out links between Arliss's murder and three previous murders in the area dating back to February 1973. The week after the murder, the Stanford police said there were four or five potential suspects. They wanted to talk to to get their alibons. I mean, I feel like they're doing what they should be doing. You know, they're not just sitting around, not looking into it. They're taking the steps that they need to.

Yeah. And again, I don't know what they have at their disposal as far as, you know, what can you do with the semen, maybe blood typing is probably about all you could do in in 1974. Yeah, pretty limited. obviously the palm print if you had a palm print on file in that local jurisdiction you could compare palm prints but i don't think they had a big database and a computer would just go boop yeah yeah so i mean you know it's it's a thing where you look at the days before technology i mean you can even go all the way back to the early 1900s even the 1800s and just see how police did their work.

And it's amazing that they were able to solve as many crimes as they did. Now, I'm sure they put a lot of people away that were innocent. Probably. It's hard not to think that that happened, but, you know, they did the best with what they had, I think, most of the time. Chime is fee-free banking built for you. They are not like the stuffy, traditional old banks, charging you overdraft and monthly fees.

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It only takes a few minutes to sign up. up. Chime is a fintac, not a bank, banking services for MyPay and Chime card provided by Chim's bank partners for more information on APY rates. MyPay, SpotMe, and travel perks, go to chime.com slash disclosures. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. Evidence had been sent off to the FBI crime lab in D.C. And authorities were waiting on a preliminary report. police believe that Arliss was locked in by the Knight security guard, but they didn't know whether she was already dead when the doors were locked. That kind of goes back to what, you know, we were speculating on.

I think there's a few different scenarios that you could speculate on, but I don't know how you could know for sure which one is correct. They'd be difficult. I do too. Captain Frank Massunuch of the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Office said, per the Peninsula Times Tribune, my feeling all along has been that the killer was locked in. There's no question in my mind, Mrs. Perry was in the church when it was locked. So in his mind, they were both locked in.

Now, again, whether she was already dead when the doors were locked, could she have been incapacitated and then killed later? We don't know that. No. And I don't know how they would have determined that. But it sounds like he's confident about the fact that they were locked in. Yeah. But I can understand why, right?

She goes in the church. Yeah. She's seen in the church. The doors are locked. At some point, someone forces the door open. To me, it all kind of lines up with, both her and the killer being inside the church when it was locked and then the killer later figuring out that, hey, I got to bust out of here and get away.

Police said at least 45 people were in or near the church on the night of October 12th. The FBI developed 125 latent fingerprints from the materials sent to them. And about 15 people were cleared through fingerprint comparison. Okay, I mean, that's something, right? I mean, you had 45 people that were in and around the church at the time, and they were able to clear 15. Yeah. And again, that's something you definitely could do, right, with fingerprints.

If you had a fingerprint or a palm print or whatever it was, you could take somebody else's and compare them. And you say, nope, it's not you. But if you don't have the killer's fingerprint, or the killer is not one of these 45 people that you're talking to or whatever it is, then it becomes a lot tougher. Yeah. If this guy's on file in another state, okay, that makes it tough.

Yeah. Because there just wasn't that big connection. Yeah. Back then. At least seven people were actually inside the church on the night of October 12th, including Arliss and the security guard for others were identified. but the seventh individual was not a passerby described him as a young man with sandy hair and a medium built and i would assume in 1974 that would have been a pretty uh apt description of you or anybody at that time in california

yeah no kidding a lot of people have you know sandy does blongish hair in california but you know young man medium build. Okay, you're not really narrowing it down all that much, but if you've got 45 people, maybe that helps you out. Yeah. If you've got thousands of people, then no, maybe not so much. In January 1979, the FBI released a new profile of the killer, indicating that he may still stop the campus.

The killer may have seen Arliss's casual clothing as a defy-y-y-y-lawful. as a defilement of the place of worship, or he may have killed for fear, he would be overwhelmed by lust. Oh, they overwhelmed by lust theory. Yeah. He was most likely a loner

and kept a souvenir from the night. And it was said that Arliss's glasses were missing. That's not surprising, right, if they kept the souvenir or, uh, no. Yeah. No, and I mean,

none of this really surprises me. And profiles were, rarely do, right? FBI profiles rarely surprise me because I think more often than not, they follow a pretty similar pattern. Now, this one comes five years after the murder and they're saying, this guy's probably still stalking the campus. Okay, he's not been caught. So yeah, he may very well be doing that. Now, to me, the, The clothing she was wearing being seen as casual to an individual, and then they think, well, this person is defiling my place of worship. Yeah. Could it happen? Yeah. But is it more likely to me

than some of the other ones? I would say no. Now, if you're talking about lust, things like that, I would be more apt to sign on. Yeah, same here. But the fact that she wasn't, dressed to the nines to go worship at, you know, 11 o'clock at night or whatever time it was. And somebody got mad about that, mad enough to shove an ice pick in the back of her head. Yeah. That's, that's kind of tough to buy. Yeah, same here. And then you think about, that's why I lean back on the lust part, because think about, you know, what the individual did with the candle.

Yes. you know, the semen, this stuff. I mean, I think that makes more sense. It absolutely does. Also, I mean, how many times do we talk about it? What are the big motives for murder? Yeah. Right?

Greed, lust, those types of things. Somebody not wearing the right clothing that you think they should be and you're upset about that, it's not one you see. No, and if that upsets you, why would you go to the extent that you're going to kill the person and then you're going to perform sexual acts? Yes. I mean, that's like, aren't you defiling the church greater than that person? I think that's a great point.

That's why, to me, that one just doesn't make a ton of sense. Yeah. They said that he was most likely a white male between 17 to 22 years old and highly religious. Well, highly religious, why? Because this happened in a church. Yeah. again that's why the the profile thing to me some turn out to be right some turn out to be wrong it's it's all kind of an educated guess i get it's built on years of experience and and all of that but could this

be a person who's not religious at all but it was fixated with this woman and happened to follow her into the church oh for sure when i think of highly religious i think of that guy in that movie that would you know, beat himself with the, uh, oh, you're going back to Dan Brown again. You're really on a Dan Brown kick today, aren't you? Yeah, you know, you didn't have that self-flagellate. Yes. I think it was called. Didn't he have something else he would twist that. Oh, yeah. That was even worse. Yeah. That would actually dig into his skin. Yeah. So by this time, detective said they had questioned over 50 people and compared their prints with those at the crime scene. A number of people also took lie detector tests. So to your point, They're obviously doing the investigation.

Yeah. They're doing what they're supposed to be doing. They're getting into it. Arlis's husband, Bruce, willingly provided a DNA sample to investigators. Willingly. Like, hey, you need a DNA sample? I'll give it to you right. I can do it right now if you want it.

But wouldn't you do that too? If you knew that you weren't guilty. Yeah. You'd be the first person in line to say, hey, make sure, you know, I'll give you a DNA sample and obviously this would be later because you know v&A wasn't really a thing i'd probably just show up with i mean i always carry a sample i don't want to know what kind please don't tell me i's got to rotate them every now and then for the expiration of them but yeah i mean you know to me when somebody willingly offers up you know good chance that they're not guilty right you feel pretty

confident he's clear. Yeah. Security Guard, Stephen Crawford, did not submit a DNA sample, but police obtained one from an object he discarded. He also didn't take a lie detector test when others did. That makes you wonder, you know, hey, you're a security guard, kind of law enforcement ish, you know, but why wouldn't you want to help out here, you know, do the lie detector test. But I love these sneaky, you know, wait for him to put his coffee cup down. Oh, I always love that. Yeah. Straws, coffee cups.

You know, there's, there's been all kinds of different things. But it does, it doesn't mean Stephen Crawford's guilty, but you know in the eyes of investigators, he has to go up the list. Sure he does. Right. He's not being cooperative as far as giving DNA, taking a lie detector test. Now, we said it, right? At this time, DNA proteins.

filing as we know it did not exist. Yeah. In his book, The Ultimate Evil, The Search for the Sons of Sam. Journalist Mori Terry proposes the theory that Arliss was murdered by a satanic cult on the instructions of Satanus from Bismarck. Oh, okay. Now, came down from Bismarck. Now, this book came out in 1987, which to me is during the height of the whole satanic panic thing.

And it doesn't surprise me that someone would say, well, it's probably a satanic cult. Yeah. They did blame a lot of stuff back then on satanic cults. I did. I did in school. I blamed it a lot of times why my homework wasn't turned in. Satanic cult. Yeah.

You know, they had me. I couldn't get my homework done. Terry also speculates on serial killer David Berkowitz's alleged involvement. So, you know, you have the son of Sam, David Berkowitz. He's killing people in New York City. but, you know, maybe he decides to take a trip to North Dakota. I guess. Seems a little far-fetched.

But in 1979, Berkowitz sent a book to North Dakota authorities, in which he wrote in the margins, Arles Perry, hunted, stalked, and slain followed to California, Stanford University. I said North Dakota, but obviously the murder happened in California. you now we know now that berkowitz was kind of full of it sure and most of the stuff that he said especially about the son of sam and the dog and all of that turned out to be just made up yes yes but also you know how hard would it be for uh be for him maybe to learn about this murder and then send this book in to authorities the other thing we know about serial killers is They like to take credit for things sometimes that they didn't do.

I do. Especially when they're already in prison, what do they have to lose? If it gets some more limelight too, some of these guys, they like the attention. Yeah, because, you know, if you think about a serial killer, especially when they're captured. Oh my gosh, it's, it's huge. It's big news, right? It's a media circus with the trial. But then what happens?

Eventually, all of that kind of goes away. and you're just left to rot in a cell for the rest of your life or to be put to death at some point. So to your point, does someone say, well, I haven't been in the news for a while. Nobody's come to talk to me. I'll do this. And it'll kind of stir things up again.

You know, I think if I was a serial killer today, I'd probably like do a true crime podcast, you know, like as a co-host or something. Yeah. You know, and not be the main person. No, no, no, just be, but be there. And, you know, give some input right or wrong. Get free food.

Oh, yeah, yeah, eat for free like I do, yeah. Just all kinds of perks there, I guess. Now, in a few letters, Berkowitz suggested that he heard details of the crime from Manson the second, who he said was the alleged killer. Okay. Yeah. He was interviewed in prison, but investigators believed he, He had nothing of value to offer, per the San Jose Mercury News.

Doesn't surprise me at all. No. With everything that we know about David Berkowitz. Mori Terry noted that Berkowitz volunteered information about the case without being prompted. Terry also interviewed Arles' friends in North Dakota and learned that someone on the Stanford campus took a telephone listing under Bruce Perry's name. The confusion when Arles' best friend and Bruce's mother attempted to reach them at the fraudulent phone number led Arles to call the number herself and speak to someone. In a letter dated September 27, 1974, Arles wrote,

I had to laugh about your call to Bruce Perry. Mrs. Perry made the same mistake. She called them too. But the strange part of it is that his name is not only Bruce Perry, but it's Bruce D. Perry. But not only that, it's Bruce Duncan Perry. And he attends Stanford University. And he just gotten married this summer.

One thing, his wife's name is not Arles. Anyway, next time you get the urge to call, the number is, this time I guarantee you'll get the right Bruce Perry. So, you know, kind of a strange thing to have happen. Kind of interesting. Now, could it be that there's, There's another Bruce Duncan Perry, and technically, but one that just got married that summer.

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Now, we've talked about it a lot, right? When you have these unsolved cases, pretty normal for police to look at, you know, serial killers who had similar MOs who were operating maybe in or around the area at the same time, that happens or that happens today, but it's happened throughout history. I mean, I'm not surprised that they looked at Bundy initially because, you know, campus, California. I mean, it just kind of makes sense. Yeah. Plus, you know you have a verified serial killer. Yeah. You already know this person's capable of this type of murder.

Sure. Now, we just want to see if they actually did this one. In August 2016, detective submitted an item of. Arles's clothing for DNA testing. In 2018, DNA evidence definitively linked former security guard Stephen Crawford

to Arles' murder. By this time, Gibbs, Crawford was 72 years old. And 72. And that's the power of DNA. And we keep talking about it. You know, 2018 seemed to me to be kind of the year

where a lot of the newer DNA technology was being unleashed. You know, you think about the Golden State Killer being captured. When that, I think that was 2018. I can't remember. It was around that time frame.

But, you know, I think it's when they were starting to realize some of the power of DNA, especially when it came to like genetic genealogy and things like that. But that's the amazing thing about DNA. as it relates to forensic work and police work, the technology just keeps evolving. Yeah.

And getting better and better as far as being able to get samples, maybe on things that were tried years and years ago. But the technology wasn't there to even get a viable sample. And now they can't. I mean, I love that this is happening. You know, I'm just trying to picture all these people that thought they got away was. something and then they see the cruiser come down the lane or they see the or they see the police officer at the door you know or they watch you on youtube hitting your mic yeah um but i love that because you know it's got to be a feeling of like oh shit yeah no because my thought is

always that you know especially in these crimes that happened 60 70s things like that they had many, many years of thinking, oh, I got away with this. There is no way they'll ever connect me. Then at a certain point, it had to start being a little concerned when you see on the news that some of these cold cases are being solved using DNA. And then you really got to be shaking in your boots when you see some of the advancements down the road. And at that point, you're thinking, oh, they could get me.

Yeah. And now it's like in every day. looking over my shoulder type of thing, which I'm with you. I think that's amazing because we don't want these people, number one, to get away with these murders, but number two, to live their life free from at the very least anxiety about being caught. And obviously we want them to eventually be caught. But 72 years old.

Yeah. And you figure at 72. Most people, and I say most, not everybody, they've been married, maybe once, maybe multiple times, usually have a family, grandkids, probably retired. You're somebody's grandpa. Yeah. And now all of a sudden, you're linked to a murder. I mean, what does that do, you know, throughout the family tree? There's just a lot that goes into these identifications.

Oh, yeah. on June 28th, 2018, as police arrived at his apartment in San Jose, California, with a search warrant, Stephen Crawford shot himself in the head. Go and handle it. No, and to your point, I do think that he was aware, maybe not that they were closing in on him, but that the technology was there that they could catch him. Yeah. And I'm sure he was very aware of the type of evidence that they had. Yeah, since he left it on the kneeling post. Yeah.

And I'm sure it'd been reported, right? Well, we know it had because this is where we got some of our information from, old newspaper articles and things like that. So as time goes by, right, for Stephen Crawford, and you're starting to see what they can do with DNA and you know what you left behind. Yeah. You've got to be really worried. So now we're not surprised.

at all why he didn't want to give a DNA sample back then. No. And why he didn't want to take the lie detector test. No, because he would have failed the lie detector test, I'm sure. And whatever they could have done, which obviously was not full-blown DNA profiling, but most likely they would have mashed his blood type. Yeah. Maybe something along those lines.

I don't know if it would have been enough to convict him, but he wasn't taking that chance. Deputies arrived at his apartment at 9.04 a.m. and they spoke to him through the door. Crawford asked for a few minutes to get dressed. Deputies thought he was stalling, so they used a key they got from the office to get inside. He was sitting on the bed with a gun in his hand. Deputies immediately backed away, and then a short time later, they heard a gunshot. when they reentered Crawford was dead from a self-inflicted woman. And, you know, for me, that is just the kind of proof that he had known at the very least that this could happen to him. They could figure out who he was. And he had made the necessary preparations. Let's call it that. And in his mind,

he was never going to be taken alive. I think he had made that choice. Certainly didn't want to go to prison. No. He didn't want to pay for his crime. At a news conference, Lori Smith with Santa Clara County said, as quoted by Palo Alto Online,

we followed all the leads, an unraveled and entanglement of the elements associated with the murder of Arlis Perry. This is a case that eludes us no longer. And I, you know, I, you know, I, wonder what the feeling is like for investigators. Yeah.

We talk a lot about what, what is the feeling for the family to finally get that type of notification that the murder of your loved one is solved so many years later. But, you know, you also have to think about investigators, a lot of people who worked on at retired and probably found out at some point, right, that it was finally solved.

It's got to be a really gratifying feeling. I think so. I mean, the relief and the, um, almost, I think you would almost break down and think, finally. Yeah. Finally. We've got the guy. They worked on it for many, many years.

They never gave up. And they finally, uh, figured out who it was. Smith said that Crawford had been a suspect, but there just wasn't enough evidence to charge him. And we talked about it, right? How could he not be a suspect? First of all, he's the, the person who, found the body. Right. And, and that person is always going to be, if not a suspect, a person of interest. They have to be cleared because many times the person who finds the body turns out to be

the killer. But then also you have him, you know, not wanting to take a lie detector test, not wanting to give up any type of DNA. He's got to be a suspect. And he had access to the location. Yeah. Absolutely. He had keys. Yeah. Cold case detectives contacted Crawford in the weeks leading up to his death. And so, right, we talked about it. At some point, he had to know there was a chance. Well, when they contacted him, that must have really set the alarm bells off, right? They're on to me. Right. It's a matter of time. Yeah. So he, at that point, if he wasn't already, like, geared up to possibly do something, at that point he probably did gear up.

He was linked to the crime through DNA evidence found on Arliss's clothing. That evidence was pushed forward by lead detective Sergeant Richard Alonis. Alonis kept a picture of Arles to serve as a reminder of her life. And we've heard that, right? A lot of detectives do for cases that go back 10, 20, 30, 40 years. I think it's good. I think it's important to remember why you're doing what you're doing. doing every day or once a week or whatever the frequency is on these, you know, cold cases.

So you remember, this is, this was a person. Right. Not just a cold case with a number. There's an actual person. And I think police know that. Detectives who searched Crawford's apartment found a box in his closet that contained personal papers in the jacket for the book, The Ultimate Evil by Mori Terry, which discusses the murder of Arles Perry.

A hastily written suicide note from 2016 was found on a computer table near the bed. It didn't mention the murder directly. This date may have coincided with when the lead detective began questioning Crawford again. Arliss's mother, Jean, was 88 years old when the case was solved. She told the Mercury News that the case had taken a toll in recent years on her husband, Marvin, who sadly died three months earlier. She was heartbroken that the perpetrator wasn't captured before he died. Yeah, you'd like to be able to get him that closure.

Yeah. But it's sad that he died without ever knowing that the case was solved. Arliss's sister, Karen Barnes, spoke to reporters by phone and said that their first reaction was, after all these years, it's about time. And I get that. Yeah. And is it that some people at a certain point think it's just been too long. It's never going to be solved. And then others, they never give up hope. They never waver. They, you know, kind of remain steadfast that, no, it is going to be solved. But either way, you'd have to have some sort of reaction like that. Like, it's about time. Yeah. You know, we've been waiting so long. They knew the sheriff's office was still investing. investigating. Occasionally they received inquiries from detectives, following up on various aspects of the case. They weren't surprised to learn Crawford was a suspect because, as they said,

from what we heard, his story tended to change every now and then. And we've talked about it many times before on the Unsolved podcast is when you have these people changing their story, it tends to be because there's no truth behind you. it. They're lying. Yeah. You know, and they're making something up. They forget what they made up. Or they're contradicted with facts. So they got to make up a new story that kind of fits the facts that, you know, or put before them. Now, she also said their closure wasn't complete because they didn't know why Arles was killed. And yeah, knowing who, that's important.

But the why, I think for many people is also very important. Why? Why would someone want to do this to our loved one, this person who, you know, everyone seemed to really like, said was a nice person. Why would they do it? Yeah. It makes you wonder, you know, was it just somebody he lusted after when he's, when he's seen her in there? And then after the fact, he did all that extra stuff to try to make the police think something more than what it was. Or was that part of his fantasy? Yeah. or part of, you know, the killing itself and the gratification that goes along with it for some of these individuals. Crawford's neighbor, Annette Christostoma, told Palo Alto News that they exchanged greetings several times during the year she lived at the complex.

Crawford kept to himself, but seemed normal. Palo Alto News provided further information on Crawford's background. He was an Air Force veteran. He began working for Stanford in 1971 as a police officer and carried a gun. In 1972, the new police chief began reorganizing, the Stanford Police Department and questioned whether many officers were qualified to carry guns. They were asked to reapply, and about three quarters of the force did not qualify. So they were offered jobs as security guards.

Crawford was working. one of those people, it was said that he complained bitterly about the change. Well, he just wasn't happy that he had to be probably, probably to him, it was a demotion. Yeah, I'm sure he looked at it that way. He was a police officer. Now he's a security guard. I mean, that's nothing against security guards. But I'm with you, I'm thinking, you know, if I'm in his mind, that's a demotion.

Yeah. and he wasn't happy about it. He remained at Stanford until 1976. But he began stealing items from some of the offices there, such as human skulls, a walking cane given to the university founder, rare books. He also got a degree Gibbs from Stanford using a blank diploma that he took from the print shop. Now that sounds something like you or I would have done back the day, or maybe just me. Maybe just you.

But, okay, you're just going to walk around as the security guard stealing a bunch of stuff. You're also going to be so bold to give yourself a degree from Stanford. This is not podunk you. This is Stanford University. It's, you know, prestigious. Pretty prestigious, not that easy to get into. or you got to work your butt off. Crawford was arrested for receipt of stolen property.

He received a six months suspended sentence. He claimed he was angry at the university and the police department for treating him as a suspect. Sheriff Lori Smith said investigators didn't think Crawford was connected to other unsolved murders at Stanford or in the area, but they were still looking into it. I just find it weird that he was upset that they were looking at him as a suspect. You did it.

Well, but I just snorted. He's not going to be happy because he doesn't want to be looked at. But you're right. He did it. Doesn't mean he has to be happy about it. Yeah, that's true. But let's talk about the notion that he would commit other crimes. And I think to do that, you have to go back and kind of revisit this crime and its brutality.

Yeah. Obviously, we talked about the sexual. nature of the crime, the ice pick to the back of the head. I feel like this is the type of person who could have committed other crimes. I think so. I don't think you could clearly say this is an isolated issue. No, there's no way. Now, could someone commit a crime like this and then never murder anybody again?

Yeah, technically they could. I think there's a there's a strong likelihood though that if you're able to do this, the chances are that you either enjoyed it or there was some aspect to it that you're going to want to experience again as nasty and vile as that sounds. Former San Jose Mercury News columnist Scott Hurdle spent years studying the case and developed a snapshot of Crawford's personality. He said he could be charming, but he was a loner and a liar. For example, he claimed his parents died in a car accident when he and his brother were young,

but they actually died separately when he was in his early 20s. He was in a square dance group and his groupmates called him the prevaricator because of his tendencies to tell stories. That's a big term there to use instead of just saying, comma, liar. I've never actually heard of that word. And I feel like my vocabulary is decent.

I just, it's not one I'm familiar with. Well, if you take the Vari, you already had the pre. Here we go. Break it down and it's Latin and you know all about it.

I think the first, the first maybe thing to jump out in somebody was the fact that he was in a square dance crew. Nothing against all you square dancers out there, but, you know, single going to the square dance. Yeah. Maybe you should be looked into.

I don't know. So as we wrapped this one up, Gibbs, the murder of Arles Perry was the biggest unsolved crime in Santa Clara County history. Her murder remained unsolved for more than four decades. But as we talked about, right, investigators never stopped pursuing their main suspect. And they used advances. in DNA technology to link Stephen Crawford to the murder. Sadly, although there's not a, I guess what you would call a resolution in this case,

because there's no legal justice for Arliss and her family, but we know who did it. Yeah. I mean, at least he's no longer around. Yeah. I get what you're saying. Yeah. But resolution, but then also not resolution. Those cases are always strange when somebody doesn't make it to trial,

even though the evidence is overwhelming. I'm sure he would have been convicted. But. Just wish that he would have suffered. Yeah. Yeah, because I think these types of cases are even more infuriating because what he did was, extremely horrible. It was. And he took someone's life, but then he got to live his life for a very

long time. I mean, 40-some years, man, just, I think for a good chunk of that, he didn't turn around to look who was behind them at all. No, at a certain point, I'm sure he did. But like you said, the majority of it, I'm sure he lived, I don't know how good of a life it was, but it was a free life. He was free to do whatever he wanted. And he shouldn't have been. No. Because he, you know, he killed someone. But that's it for our episode on Arles Perry. You got anything else? No. All right. It's how simple that was. No. You just say no. So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.