True Crime All The Time - Arthur Gary Bishop

Episode Date: April 6, 2020

Arthur Gary Bishop was one of Utah's most infamous killers. Between 1979 and 1983, Bishop murdered five boys, but over years he molested many more. When the police closed in on him they found hundreds of photographs he had taken over the years of many different boys. Many have never been identified so police have no way of knowing how many victims Bishop may have had over the years.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Arthur Gary Bishop, a man conflicted between his Mormon faith and the sexual urges he had from a young age. What motivated Bishop to carry out his evil crimes against such a young and innocent group? Was it his excommunication from the church? Was it his claim that he was molested at an early age? The end result was that Bishop preyed upon vulnerable children to satisfy his sick sexual urges. His crimes progressed to murder and would have continued if law enforcement had not stopped his monster.You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 177 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm doing, man. How are you? Hanging in. Yeah. That's what we're doing.

So that's all we can do. Yeah, you and I just did a little small Patreon, our weekly Patreon episode. We did. Kind of talked a little bit about what we've been doing. And obviously it's not much, right? Staying at home, researching true crime. The one thing I will say, and obviously this is a crisis that everybody's going through, I've been getting to spend a lot of time with my family. Yeah, you have.

And that is really nice. And it's kind of hard to, it's hard for me to say that in the face of everything that we're going through. But, I mean, what else can you do? But make the best of what the situation you're in. Absolutely. And you guys are doing that. Yeah, we're spending a lot of time together watching movies and, you know, bonding. They seem really happy.

Yeah. I think as happy as everyone can be without getting to see their, their boyfriends much. Yeah. But, you know, with technology, you got FaceTime and hell,

you can talk to people on Xbox and PlayStation without even using all over the world, man. Doesn't matter where they're at. So makes you wonder, like you said, I think you said it on Patreon, you know,

wonder what people did back in the 60s and 70s. I do wonder how a crisis like this would have played out. Yeah. in the 70s or 80s or 60s, whatever you want to say, not only, you know, how would it have spread and how would we have gotten the word out, but how people would have dealt with it, right? No cell phones, no video capabilities, no ability to work from home or very, very little, no internet. So I think it would have been extremely tough for people to quarantine the way that we're doing now. back then.

Who would have thought that so many companies would find the resources to make sure people go work at home? Yeah. Yeah. It's actually amazing. All right. We had some new Patreon supporters. Okay.

And we've actually gotten a lot of really good support, Gibbs, which, you know, means a lot to us. Especially right now. Especially right now. So we do very much appreciate it. We had Dale Alexander. Hey, Dale. Sarah. What's going on, Sarah?

Dick M. Hoff. Hey, M. Hoff. I know what they're up to. Yeah. Cathena music. Hey, Kathleen. But it's not going to stop me from saying it. Hey, I'll say it the way you put in.

You will. Unless it's too brutal. Joshua Wildman. Hey, Joshua. Josh Ramsey. Hey, Josh. Mariah Cole jumped out at her highest level. What's going on?

Moriah. Thank you. Katie Upton. Well, the famous Katie Upton. Thank you. Kelly Wynn. Hey, Kelly. Tracy Donovan.

What's going on? Tracy. Losef Popa. Oh, hey, Joseph. Stacey Nicole. Hey, thank you, Stacy. Cricket. What's going on?

Cricket. Kel Madden. Uh, hey, Cal. Catherine Wolfe. What's going on? Wolf. Alyssa Wickledge. Wickledge.

Wickledge. Yeah. Joseph Piment. Hey, Piment. Brandy Stubert jumped out of our highest level. Wow. Thanks, Brandy. Adriana Flores.

Ooh, Adriana. Carson Holst. Hey, Carson. You really drugged that one out. I did. Jennifer Helms. Hey, Jennifer. And Deb Sullivan.

Awesome. Thanks, Deb. And then if we go back into the vault, Gibbs. This week we selected Laura Richards. Wow. Hey, Laura. Yeah, been with us a long time. We really appreciate both the new support and the long time support. We really do. It means a lot. We had some PayPal donations as well, Elizabeth Scull. Hey, Elizabeth. Shaila Green. What's going on, Shala? Angie Stevenson. Hey, thanks, Angie. Kathleen Martin. What's going on, Kathleen? And Lori Holly. Hey, thank you, Laura. So thank all of you as well. All right, Gibbs. We have a brand new episode out right now

unsolved and I think it's one of our, if not the first sports related cases we've ever done. It's on the mysterious death of Sunny Liston. Yeah, we're going to dive into a little boxing. Yeah. Sunny Liston was a very famous, a very good boxer, probably most well known. I mean, he was the heavyweight champion at one point in time, but very well known because in his prime, he was up against Muhammad Ali. He was.

Yeah. So definitely check that out. All right, Gibby, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready, man. We are talking about one of Utah's most infamous killers. This guy's a real POS. He really is too. A monster named Arthur Gary Bishop, who murdered at least five young boys in the Salt Lake City, Utah area.

Gives this a man who prayed on and molested many more. boys than the number of his murder victims. The true number of all of his victims could be staggering. You know, police have said, yeah, they believe this guy's murder count is five, but it's impossible for them to truly be sure how many other victims he had. Well, like you said, he's a real son of it. You know what. So.

And I think the problem is with identifying some of his other victims, you have people that don't want to come forward. Right. Because of a myriad of reasons, that they don't want to tell their story. They might be ashamed at what happened. It's sad, but that happens. And so if they never came forward, police would never know. Maybe it was never even reported. But that's why, you know, the number could be 30, 40, 50, hell, it could be 100 of potential molestation victims. We just don't know. And you're exactly right. And I don't think we would ever know that. Arthur Gary Bishop was born on September 29th, 1952 in Hinkley, Utah into a devout Mormon family. Gibbs, there's really not a ton out there about his childhood.

But what I did find seemed as though it was pretty average. He was very active in the church alongside his family. He was an Eagle Scout, which I think you were too. You were some type of scout Was a Cubs scout? I think I worked my way in the Boy Scout Well, what is an Eagle Scout compared to a Cub Scout? It's like the next.

It's like Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Eagle Scout. Okay. So you never made it to Boy Scout? I was getting, I think I was just maybe into Boy Scout. Okay. So you're saying you're a quitter. Yes. Okay.

I didn't go the distance. Yeah. See, I was never in Scouts. Yeah. So I don't know any. I'm not even going to try. No. The commitment, it's got to be there.

Right. So I'm a non-committer. Yeah. You're a quitter. I am a quitter. We both got our good and bad points. So Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Eagle Scout, and then Park Patrol. Is that a real thing?

Are you making that up? That last one I made up. Okay. It's like Park Ranger? Yeah. So I think that's an actual job. Yeah. Well, you know.

But besides that, he was a good student. Ex classmates later used words like nerdy, odd to describe Bishop. But I don't think any of them saw anything in him that would have hinted at what he would later become. And I would say the same for teachers. You know, it's not just ex-classmates, but teachers, people that interacted with him on a daily basis, I don't think anybody looked at this guy and say, oh, he's going to be bad news when he gets to be an adult.

But you know what? I think there's some kids you can look at. Oh, yeah. And you're like, I, you know. So, you know, the old saying is don't judge a book by its cover. And I get that. There are some books that I think you can judge. And, you know, we always kind of joke around about Otis Tool.

Right. You know, you see Otis Tool and are you giving Otis Tool the benefit of the doubt? Okay. If you're a great person, maybe. Am I a great person? Probably not because I'm walking away from Otis Tool because I feel like something's not right. And I'm getting away from the danger. Yeah.

Does that make me a bad person? If it does, I'll live with it. I'll be a bad person today. I'll walk away. Because I'll be safe. Yeah. Bishop once told a psychiatrist that he was molested by a man when he was very young. We're talking five, six years old. And then later on at his trial, it was suggested by doctors that it was this incident

that caused his sexual desires to become fixated on very young boys. I think the way they described it Gibbs was almost like his sexual. preferences got stopped at that point in time. Okay. It's kind of the way that they use different words, obviously, but. I get what they're saying, though. He did date a few girls in school, but he said pretty early on, he knew that he was homosexual.

He was not attracted to members of the opposite sex. I mentioned he was smart. He graduated third out of his class of about 100. It's not bad. It's not a huge class, but. Yeah, you know, when you're that, but you're still in the top percentile. Yeah, you're in the top three percent. Yeah.

I can do that, man. So after high school, Bishop went on his LDS church mission to the Philippines. And I don't know if that's a requirement. I actually don't know a lot about the church of Latter-day Saints and Mormons. I know a lot of them go on missions. I think they do have to go and then commit to so many, you know, amount of time. Yeah, I just didn't, I don't know if it's a requirement to be part of the church or it's just thought of as this is something you should do. If you want the fry sauce is what you have to do.

Oh, man. Love that fry sauce. But Arthur would later say that he had done a pretty good job up to that point in time of keeping his desires for young boys in check. It was there and he knew it was there. But he said, okay, I did okay with it. I didn't act on it. I didn't hurt anyone. But he said it was while he was in the Philippines that he saw boys running around naked.

You know, it's hot. Yeah. A lot of the boys, I guess, didn't have clothes. They just ran around naked. And for him, that was not a good thing because it really caused his urges to grow. seeing these young naked boys running around. It's a problem. I don't know if he ever described it exactly this way, Gibbs,

but it's almost as though he was fighting this internal battle. The teachings he had grown up with in the Church of Latter-day Saints versus his sexual desires and fantasies, which all revolved around young boys. Yeah, I think it would be really difficult for anybody, but to have the church background that he had on top of it. Yeah, the struggle had to be extremely real. Yeah. And the family was described as very religious. So he did eventually fulfill his mission in the Philippines, moved back to the U.S. He enrolled at a business school in Utah. And he earned a degree in accounting. And eventually he landed a job as a bookkeeper at a Larson Ford dealership.

Now, Gives, I'm not sure what age it started, but for, For a long time, Arthur Bishop had been addicted to child pornography. Okay. So we know he has the urges. Right. He's getting the pornography to satisfy the purpose. Yes. Yeah.

He sought it out anywhere he could find it, which I imagine was a little bit tougher of a thing to do in the 70s and early 80s. I'm guessing it had to be a guy in a van in the alley. Yeah, it was a back room thing. I mean, there was no internet. There was no dark web. Nothing like that. But he talked about it.

He worked hard. It was like a job, right? To find it. And like you said, he used that type of pornography to satisfy his sexual urges. But I think as with a lot of urges. And you can say the word urges or addiction or whatever term you want to use, it seems to take more and more, right, to satisfy. certain people. Some people can drink a beer a week. Yeah. Some people can drink a beer a day. Some people,

they eventually need to drink a case a day. Yeah, they can't stop once they open that case. Yeah. So I think it was like that with him because eventually the pornography alone was not enough to satisfy Arthur Bishop. And I don't think he's alone there. You and I have talked about killers before. You know, Ted Bundy blamed a lot of his stuff on pornography. Now, I don't know if I believe him or not, but I do think there have been some killers and probably quite a few killers who started out with pornography, maybe some very graphic types of pornography. And that really fueled them later in life to become not just killers, but into like, you know,

dominating and really hurting or displaying violence towards women. No, I agree. I think they start off at this. somewhat normal pornography path, you know, and then quickly divert to this very obscure world. Yeah. Now, he started off within not normal pornography whatsoever. And some people will say, okay, what are you calling normal pornography? Some people will say none of it's normal. Well, that's true. But when you're talking about child pornography, that's, that is definitely way out of the bounds of anybody's idea of normal.

He also signed up to be a part of the Big Brothers of Utah program. Now, Big Brothers is a great program. Yeah. But what is a scary thought gives is that a pedophile would seek out this organization as a way to get close to young children. That's a scary thought. Yeah, that's exactly what he did because he knew that that was not a good thing for him to join up.

No. No. No, and he was doing it not out of the goodness of his heart as most people would join that type of organization. He was doing it because he knew it was going to put him closer to young kids, young boys. So that's exactly what he did. I found one report that said in 1976 he was accused of molesting a child while in the program and they forced him out. There are a lot of varying accounts about his activity in this big brother program. He's going to use some aliases down the road.

We're going to talk about that. There are some reports that he got back in using an alias. And there are some reports that just have him kind of doing it one time. I think, you know, in this 1976 incident, they forced him out. They found out about it. They forced him out. but some outlets have reported that the organization kind of kept it hush, hush. Yeah, they kicked him out, but they didn't report it to any official agency.

Now, they claim they did, which obviously you would want to. Absolutely. If you're that type of organization, the problem is for most of the stuff I've read, I don't think there's any official agency that has been able to come forward with their report of it. And saying, oh, yeah, we got notified. And back that up. Right. But again, it's 1976.

Yes. So, you know, how good are the records back then? Sure. Yeah. We don't know. It was really 1977 when Bishop first found himself in trouble with the law. He got caught embezzling money from the Ford dealership and he was arrested. Not good.

Most employers don't like it when you steal their money. No. Never really goes over well. Now, when you're the accountant, you can probably get away with it for a longer period of time than most. Yeah, if you cook those books just right. Depending on how many other accounts, you might be the sole accountant. Yeah. And you might be able to get away with it for a while.

But he didn't. They caught him. I will say, I think he got pretty lucky in the fact that he was able to work out a plea deal where he would plead guilty to his crime, pay back the money he stole. and in exchange for that, he wouldn't have to do any jail time. That's a pretty good plea deal. That's a real good deal for him. I mean, to me, anything that involves not having to do actual time. Yeah.

That's a good plea deal. Absolutely. Kept you out of the big house. Yeah. That's what you want. If you're a criminal, he did receive a five-year suspended jail sentence and was forced to live in a halfway house. But again, that versus going to the pokey, hmm, it's not too bad.

No. But for some reason, this didn't suit him. And I wasn't really sure I never saw it Gibbs, whether it was, okay, he didn't want to live in the halfway house for however long he had to, or he didn't want to pay back the $8,000, $9,000, whatever it was to this company. Or both. Or both. So he decided, you know what, I'm going to take off. I'm not doing it. And that's what he did. He took off. Now, he didn't really go anywhere. He stayed in the salt. Lake City area, but he started using aliases. He dropped the name Arthur Bishop. He started going by Roger Downs. And later on, he would use the name Lynn Jones. And so he's using these aliases over the years. And he was able to land accounting jobs at different places. But I'm going to

continue to refer to him as Arthur Bishop or Art Bishop, because if not, it'll get too confusing. Well, with all those different names out there for sure. Yeah. So I'm going to say art, Bishop, but at certain times, he was using these other names. The other thing that happened was he got excommunicated by the LDS Church. Now, there are some outlets that have reported he asked for this himself. Some people have reported that it happened as a result of his legal troubles. Sure. And him taking off. I think both would have been reason for them to excommunicate him. But I think why this is so important is because many people have speculated that it's this event that kind of freed up his mind in some way. Right. Gibbs. Like in a way, he was no longer bound by the

tenants of that religion, of that organization, of everything that he had kind of, grown up with. Yeah, I think the struggle that he was having with the church earlier is going to be lifted and no longer a problem now. Now he can feel like what he's doing is, you know, it's who he is and it's wrong, but he doesn't have that church in the background telling him it's wrong. Well, and I think that's the problem, right? For society, that's not good. No. Because that may have been one of the big things holding him back from actually doing some of the things that he wanted to do, that struggle that that you talked about. Because I do believe in his mind, I think he thought he was free. Now, to pursue some of his desires. Now, I do think he knew full well they were wrong. I don't think he

cared. But no, because it's an urge, right? It's a desire. It's an urge. It's an addiction. Whatever term you want to use, some people can fight it forever. And some people can only fight it for so long. And some people say, you know what? I don't want to fight it. I want to do what I want to do. I know it's wrong and I don't care. That's a problem, man. And it was during the late 70s and into the early 80s that Art Bishop molested a large number of boys. And obviously, he began murdering boys as well. We said that up front. And I mentioned it, right? There are some reports that indicate he got back into the Big Brothers program using his alias Roger Downs and molested more children that way. Well, it worked for him. So of course, he's going to keep going back to the thing that works for him.

Yeah, because you can't go back in as Arthur Bishop. No. They know who he is. But who's Roger Downs? They don't know. We don't know. And really Gibbs, this guy was no dummy. I mentioned it up earlier.

He was intelligent. But even more than that, I think he was cunning. And I think those are a different thing. Oh, yeah. You can be both. Sure. And I think as a killer, that's pretty scary. But I think he hit it right on.

You know, he was definitely cunning. And I point to the fact that he befriended a young boy whose father had been murdered in a bar fight. The kid had a mother who didn't really pay much attention to him. You know, she wasn't at home a lot. She was out partying. There were reports that she just wasn't attentive. Right. Let's put it that.

way. So Bishop cultivated this sick type of illegal relationship with this kid. And I hate to use the word relationship because I don't know, normally you kind of think of that as a good thing. You and I have a relationship. Sure. But I don't know what else to call it. It was sick. It was twisted. It was against the law. Yeah. And obviously this was not a good relationship. Definitely inappropriate. He gave this boy money. He bought him expensive gifts, but he prayed on this kid, took advantage of him sexually, had him pose for pictures to use as his own sick child pornography. Right. I mentioned it, right? He had a hard time getting it. Sure. He's going to make it himself. He's going to have his own smut stuff. But on top of that, he also had this boy introduce him to some of his

friends who then later became his victims of either molestation or murder or both. Bishop committed his first murder in October of 1979. Four-year-old Alonzo Daniels was outside playing. Unfortunately, Gibbs, Alonzo and his family lived in the same apartment complex as Arthur Bishop. So it was around noon on this day. He was at work. It's lunchtime. Okay. I'm going to run home to the apartment. I'm going to grab something to eat.

Right. Well, getting to his apartment, he spotted Alonzo. He stopped to talk to the little boy. And then he lured him into his apartment by offering him candy. The whole candy thing. Well, how many times did we hear growing up? Yeah. Don't take candy from strangers.

And I mean, this is the type of situation where that saying came from. The problem is this kid's only. four years old. I mean, how many three, four, five year olds don't want candy? You're right. They don't know any better yet, right? They don't know. You can tell them, but they don't really know. That's what I'm saying. You can, you can say the words. Do they really understand what you're saying? Yeah. I don't know. Three, four. I mean, that's, you're talking about very young kids and easy, easy to manipulate their mind at that point. Yeah. And I think that's why a lot of pedophiles and killers of, of kids. over the years have used that type of thing. Hey, candy, toys. Yeah. I found a puppy. I mean, you can go through

all the different scenarios that people have used over the years. I could probably get half our listening audience on the puppy one and in a van. Hey, got a free puppies in the van. They'd be like, boom, because they love puppies. Who doesn't love puppies? You'd get in a man for a puppy. I do love puppies. But he did. Gibbs. He got him back into his apartment using this idea of candy, but once he got him in there, he began touching this boy inappropriately. He had him sitting on his lap eating this candy. But Alonzo must have known something wasn't right with this situation. He began screaming. He began crying and he started to threaten Art that he was going to tell his mother. Good. So good as a four-year-old. Right. You're recognizing that someone is doing something to

you that they shouldn't be doing. Right. It's not healthy. No. And you're saying, hey, don't do that. I'm going to tell my mom. But Arthur Bishop couldn't have that, right? He can't have a little kid telling somebody else that he's a pedophile. So he took the little boy in the bathroom and he hit him in the head with a hammer. He then filled the bathtub with water and he drowned little Alonzo while he was unconscious. Ficious. I want to play a very short clip of Bishop talking to police about it in a later interview. Had a hammer close by.

I just picked it up and hit him on the head with it while he was trying to get dressed. So obviously, I know that's not very long, but even with that length of time, I mean, how matter of fact was that? Pretty matter of fact. Here's what I did. And gives, I know these cases are tough. Right. for me, it's impossible to imagine how someone could want to sexually assault a child,

but to think that someone could then, you know, that easily, the way he's saying he did it, hit a small boy on the head with a hammer and then dunk him underwater and drown him. Without any remorse. And then tell police as though it was walking out to get the mail from the mailbox. I mean, that's literally the way he said it. And we're going to hear from him a couple more times. It's not going to be any different. But this was his first murder.

And it seems as though it was pretty spontaneous. I don't think he had planned to do it. So I think after it happened, he started panicking. First, that someone was going to be knocking on his door, maybe the police to haul him off to jail. And then secondly, all right, what was he going to do with this boy's body? That's a good point. He's got to do something. And if you haven't thought about it ahead of time, you don't have a murder kit or a Dexter type kit to use, right?

Most people don't. Most people don't. Right. Right. But what he did is he ended up calling in sick to work for the rest of the day. He wrapped Alonzo's body in plastic garbage bags. Then he put it into some type of big box. But Gibbs, he later told police he could hear Alonzo's mom.

outside in the yard of the apartment complex, she was screaming, calling out for her little boy. Just the panic itself, you know, just setting in. And I could imagine being there hearing her screaming and crying, you know, where's my four-year-old boy? Yeah. And then he said later, he walked right past her as he carried the box out and put it into the trunk of his car. That had her son in it. Wow. He ended up driving to a remote spot in Cedar, Valley and he buried the little boy's body. So to me, I don't know, Gibbs, everything has kind of been building to this, right? He probably most likely started with child pornography. He's had these type of sexual urges for a long time. Then he did begin molesting young boys and now he's murdered one.

Yeah. He's definitely elevated up in his sick world. Yeah, he would later tell police that he killed Alonzo because he was scared. He didn't want to be caught. But I also think after it happened, he got something from it that he probably wasn't expecting. Because it wasn't like he only killed people when he thought he was going to get caught from here on now. Right. Or he never killed again. He got something from the actual act of murdering this boy. Oh, absolutely. You got to rush out of it. I'm sure of it. Now, I think Art Bishop thought, okay, I don't want to kill kids, but there was something to it that now I'm missing. How do I get that? So what he chose to do was to kill animals. So there's a little warning here for those of you that

don't want to hear about animals being harmed. We know there's a lot of people out there. Right. Just skip 15, 30 seconds. ahead if you don't want to hear this part. So I mentioned it. He didn't plan on killing Alonzo, but he did later say that he got a thrill out of it. He felt powerful. And he later told investigators that Gibbs, he drowned as many as 15 puppies over the next year or so, because as he put it, their cries reminded him of Alonzo. And it made him feel powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can't stress it enough. This is one extremely sick and twisted individual. Yeah. Yeah, the way that he did what he did with Alonzo. And now he's doing this with the puppies. It's, uh, hmm. So that must have satisfied him

for a time because Bishop's next murder wasn't until a year later, October, 1980. This time his victim was an 11-year-old boy named Kim Peterson. And Kim was introduced to Bishop, by this young boy who art had been paying money to for pictures and sex. So they all apparently met up at a roller skating rink one night, big right in the late 70s, 80, early 80s. I remember going roller skating quite a bit when I was a kid. Well, I know. You were really good.

You tell everybody all the time how good you were going out there doing your moves. No, actually, I wasn't. I wasn't that good at all. Doing muscle. You know, there was all, there was those people that could do all the fancy moves. I was lucky just not to fall down. You know that that guy that did those fancy moves back then? He's probably still there today.

Yeah. Except there is no roller skating rink. He's just out in that parking lot doing this thing with a whistle around his neck. Now, after the meeting at the roller skating rink, there was another meeting arranged through this young boy between Arthur and Kim. and it was for them to go out to Cedar Valley on the pretense that they were going to hunt rabbits, right? So art's going to take this kid out to hunt some rabbits. But once they got out to the place that was really kind of pretty close to Alonzo's grave, Arthur asked him if he would pose for pictures for $100. He gives, that's a lot of money. Back then. In 1980, $100 to an 11 year old boy,

that was a ton of money. Yeah. And he accepted. Art took the pictures, but after he did, he shot Kim in the head multiple times. But as with his previous murder, it seemed as though he was not prepared. Gibbs, it was almost as if he didn't plan it out. He didn't plan to shoot this kid. He didn't have anything with him to bury the body.

Now, he had a gun, so maybe he did somewhat plan it. So what he chose to do was to hide it under some treats. And then he drove back to town, got a shovel. But when he returned, he had sex with this boy's corpse and then buried him. So he just added another thing to his sick, sickening resume. Yep. Ultimately, he would tell police that he had some type of sexual contact with four of his five victims

after they had died. Yeah. So he was definitely a necrophilia. Yeah. Well, they're not going to fight them off, are they? You can get away with that stuff a whole lot easier. Yeah, I really don't know the reason for it. But who's to say that's not the reason?

Yeah. He could have chosen to do it a number of different ways, right? He could have forced himself on this boy. He had a gun. That's true. but he chose to have sex with the body post-mortle. There's a reason for that. I'll be damned if I know what it is,

but there's a reason for that. Sick, that's all I can say. Now, police did get some leads. After the disappearance of Kim Peterson, there were people that came forward and gave police a description of the man

that they had seen with Kim at the skating rink. Police even had some sketches produced, but it didn't lead anywhere. And it was another year later, October of 1981, when Art Bishop lured another four-year-old boy named Danny Davis from a supermarket. So Danny was there with his grandfather. And from the way I understand it, he had climbed out of the shopping cart and wandered off. Every parent's nightmare. Every parent's nightmare.

You go back to the Adam Walsh story. Now, he was a little bit older, right? he wasn't in a shopping cart, but he was just a, what, an aisle or two over? Yeah. And poof, gone in the blink of an eye. And that's kind of what happened here. But with this case, we know what happened, right? Bishop lured this little boy, Danny out of the supermarket with the promise of playing with toys or getting toys.

And it wasn't like he had to force this kid out, right? He just walked with him, right? out the front door. He didn't have to pick him up and carry him kicking and screaming. The boy went with him. He was at that time, willing participant because he thought he was going to just go get out outside and get some toys. Yeah. I want toys. I'm four years old. There's no reason for me to scream or shout right now. I'm excited. I'm going to get some toys. And Bishop lived pretty close to the supermarket. So it didn't take him very long to get the boy to his apartment. that was probably part of his plan. You know, that's less time for someone to see you and become suspicious.

They got back to the apartment. Danny was playing with, you know, some toys. But eventually, you know, he got bored or he just wanted to go home. You know how kids are. Yeah. It doesn't take long. They want their mommy. They want their daddy.

They just want to go home. Well, yeah. I think they play with that for a little bit. And they're like, you know what? Where's my mom or where's my dad? Yeah. Something's not right. Yeah.

They may not think about it while they've got this shiny new toy, but eventually, you know, and a lot of times pretty quickly, it hits him. So he started crying. And when he did, Bishop panicked. And he later told investigators that, you know, the reason he panicked, the reason he got scared was because he was aware that his neighbors knew he didn't have any kids. So what's going to happen when they hear him? kid screaming, crying, wailing coming from his apartment.

Right. Well, it's not going to be good. So he smothered Danny. Then he put his body in the trunk of his car that night. Now, the first two disappearances, they had been pretty widely publicized. But it was really the disappearance of Danny Davis that kind of sparked things. This went out everywhere. And I don't know why.

It got so much more publicity than the other. other one. I mean, his first victim was only four years old, too. Right. So it wasn't the age. It might have been maybe the parents made a bigger sting. I don't know why, but the press definitely latched on. Or maybe it was because there had been three and three years. I don't know. Now we have something here. You know, I mean, it's terrible about the other ones. But now we're seeing this trend. I think we have a serial killer. Well, what it resulted in was what was at the time one of the biggest searches in the history of of Salt Lake County. But what no one knew is that this little boy was just blocks away.

Yeah. At first playing in Bishop's apartment, then ultimately, and I think pretty quickly, he was killed. The next day, police interviewed Arthur. And they had no idea that the whole time they were sitting there talking to Arthur, Danny's body was in the trunk of his car. Oh, wow, man. And it was reported that they walked right past it.

as they left to either get back in their car or go to the next place. And then he later drove back out to Cedar Valley and buried Danny's body. It's got to be a rough thing to hear later, you know, when you find out that that's what happened. Yeah, I think in some of these murders, very rough. When you think about the mother, finding out later that your son's murderer walked right by you as you were searching for your son and had his body in a box and literally walked right past you. And you didn't even know. And the police, you know, obviously I don't know how they could have known, but for the police to find out later that they're out looking for this boy, they questioned this guy.

And the whole time, the boy is in his trunk. Arthur Bishop didn't kill anyone for two years. And I don't know if he's ever really given a great reason for that. could have been the news media. Sure. It was pretty intense. That could have scared him off. There were descriptions out of a man seen walking out of the supermarket with Danny.

But his time passed and the police didn't come and haul him away, he must have started to feel safe, safe enough. To get back out there. Yeah. To get back out there. Or maybe the urge just became too strong. One of the other or a combination of both. In June of 1983, he coaxed Troy Ward into his car, gives it was Troy's sixth birthday. It was his birthday.

He is, man, what was wrong with this guy? Well, I don't think he could have known. But still. He drove the boy home. But as had others, Troy started to cry when Arthur began his sexual assault. So he beat this boy to death. But this time he didn't. He didn't drive to Cedar Valley.

He dumped the boy's body into a creek at big cottonwood Canyon. And, and again, maybe it was because there was so much press. Maybe it was he was worried that continuing to put all the bodies in one place was a bad idea. I don't know. Well, I mean, I can understand that, unfortunately. But I just feel like he's getting more comfortable with this process, this road he's going down. Well, don't you feel like most serial killers probably?

probably do. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, I think they get comfortable and then eventually turns to cocky and then that's when they typically screw up. Yeah, I mean, look at us doing the podcast, right? Over time, we have gotten more comfortable with every passing episode. Yeah, that's true. I'm not equating doing a podcast to killing a young boy, but. Yeah, you get comfortable in your surroundings and how you do things to get your end results. Yeah. I don't really think it's matters what it is you're doing. Repetition builds a lot of things. Comfort is one of them.

Efficiency. You get better at things. But, you know, when I look at this guy, I look at a person who, yeah, he was a horrible guy. I don't think he set out to kill them. I think that part happened as a result of panic or being scared. Yeah. Because he didn't want to be caught as a child molester.

But something happened. as does with a lot of killers. Once you do that one time, you either are repulsed by it and can't believe you ever did something like that and the thought never enters your mind again, or it goes the other way and you experience something that,

like you just said, you have to feed. I just wonder what he thought he was going to do on that very first time if the boy didn't cry and scream. Did you think he was just going to send him home? and that was going to be okay. Yeah, because I think he did it a lot.

Yeah. Because he had already by that time molested probably a large number of children who, for whatever reason, never said anything. Had never told anyone to get him in trouble. Yeah. But then that experience with Alonzo scared him so bad because he thought he was going to get in trouble. That makes sense.

So I mentioned a ton of press, right, at this point, even more. The press just continues on these cases. As many as 30 detectives were working the disappearances of these boys. I want to play a clip of Arthur talking to police later about Troy. This little kid came up and said, hi, how are you? And it was Troy. I said, I'm fine. And I talked him into the car.

So he hopped in very nicely. One thing, if you're wondering if it's true, he had cowboy boots on that you didn't have in any of your reports. So again, very short clip, but I get the same feeling. You know, this is not a guy who is sobbing. Oh my gosh. I killed a young child. He's making these statements in such a matter of fact type of way.

It's scaring me. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty comfortable. Yeah, it sounds like you coming over before we tape the episodes telling me what's going on with your week. It's no different. Yeah. That's what I'm hearing from this guy.

It's what went down this week. Let me just tell you this. Now, these murders have been pretty spread out, right? With almost at least a year between each one. Right. The last one, there was a two-year gap. But his next murder happened very quickly. It was just a month after Troy in July.

This time, his victim was 13-year-old Graham Cunningham, who just happened to be a friend of the boy that Arthur had been taking advantage. of now for a number of years. I mean, this, this relationship that he had with this young boy, it went on Gibbs for like four or five years. So it really did span a long distance. It did. Yeah, a long time. And a lot of illegal, inappropriate contact, you know, he was paying this boy money. I even read where I think he was paying the boy's mother money. Really? And she either thought of him as like a big brother to her. her son. Okay.

Or she knew something was not right, but she was looking the other way. And I don't know which is which. I don't know which one was worse. Well, sure. Now, later, she would come out and say, oh, my gosh, I can't believe he did this. We thought of him as, right. You know, this great guy who helped us out all the time. But there have been some that have leveled some accusations at her.

I don't know if they're, they're true or not. So Arthur and these two boys. they had made plans to take a trip. And the thing about Arthur was that he was kind of playing the role of this kid's father. Like he would introduce himself, I think, to some of these other kids as this boy's father. Oh, really? Not even like a father figure. No.

He was going to be this. I'm his dad. I think he was passing himself off as this kid's dad. So it got to the point where like father and son. son, they weren't really father and son, they were going to take a trip and take this kid along with them. Because obviously this kid's parents, they're not going to let him take a trip with some stranger.

No. So prior to the trip, Arthur got Graham to come over to his house. And it was on the pretense that he was going to pay him some money to make some type of delivery, I think. But what it turned out to be was him offering money if the boy would pose naked for him. He's going out of that. Avenue again. Yeah, he did that a lot. But pretty much the same as he did with his very first victim. Arthur hit this boy on the head with a hammer from behind. And then he drowned him in the bathtub.

And he dumped Graham's body in the same creek where he dumped Troy Ward's body. After the murder, he and the young boy went on the trip. So whatever trip they had planned, they went on. But the problem is, there were other people aware that Graham was planning to go on this trip with Arthur and his young friend or that he was posing as his son or he was posing as the boy's father. And this is really what ultimately led police to figure out that it was Arthur Bishop that was the man posing as this young boy's dad. When the two got home from their trip, police were waiting on them. And that's the point where they realized they didn't have Graham with them.

He didn't make this trip. And I think at that point, police knew. Yeah. Because they couldn't explain what happened to him. Why didn't he go on the trip with you? So they hauled both Arthur and this boy down to the station to be questioned separately. And it didn't take long at all, right? For police to get all of the information, all of the information they needed out of this young boy.

And I don't know his age. I don't know his name. They didn't put, you know, he was a minor at the time. None of the articles had any information on him, nor should they have. Exactly. But this boy told police about the pictures that Bishop had been taking over the years. He really provided them with some, you know, incriminating information about this guy. When they questioned Arthur, you know, at first, he denied everything.

He denied the pictures. He denied he was a pedophile. Denied, denied, deny. He even denied that he was homosexual. Really? He denied knowing anything about the disappearance of Graham Cunningham. But police eventually got him to start talking about Graham. And the detectives noticed something very strange.

Every time he would talk about Graham, he would use plural words. He would say they. And it wasn't long. before they realize that, hey, this guy has not only done something to Graham Cunningham, he's killed others as well. Before we get really into this, how many others are we talking about here? I think that's it. Alonzo, the Peterson boy, Troy Ward, and Graham Cunningham. Now, I'm not, I may have done one more. It seems like I did five, so I'm not sure. How about Danny Davis?

Danny Davis, I did. Gibbs, you're telling me, if you killed five people, you wouldn't know that you killed five people. I think anybody would know, but I definitely think a serial killer would know. They like to keep track of their victims. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I think it's telling how quickly he then says, oh, yeah, I killed him too. Yeah, I think he's just kind of towing around there a little bit. Now, I get it.

If you've killed 30 or 40 people over the span of, you know, 20 years, Okay. And you didn't keep notes. That might be hard. You killed five boys over a three, four year period, however long it was. I think you know exactly what you did. Yeah. He knew. And I think for somebody like this, he's got pictures. You know for a fact he's reliving these moments with his pictures, not to get into two graphic detail, but we know what these guys do. Yeah, that's exactly what he's doing. When he was home alone, that's what he's doing with those pictures. But he did finally admit, right, to five murders.

And he gave details. He said that he killed Alonzo because he was scared. He would tell his mother. He also told investigators that he had sexual contact with all of the boy's bodies after they were dead, with the exception of Danny Davis. That was the only boy that he didn't do that to. I don't know why. I never heard that part, but he didn't.

Well, we knew he was an animal, so. Yeah, the strange thing about him is that he told investigators that he didn't derive sexual satisfaction from doing it. But I find that very hard to believe. Why would you do it? Exactly. If you didn't get anything out of it, then why would you even do it? Doesn't make sense.

But Bishop didn't stop there. He took detectives to his home and he brought out his collection for them. Gibbs, there were 310 Polaroid pictures of young boys that Art had taken himself, 310. That's staggering, man. Now, it doesn't mean there were 310 different boys. No, but it's pictures. That's still a lot of pictures. And I think that's where you get into the area of, yeah, he murdered five people.

Right. But there's going to be a lot of boys that are in these pictures that police can never figure out who they are. So did they just pose for pictures for money? Right. Or, or they like the other ones, no longer here. Or did he molest them, which we know he did molest a large number of boys. Right. I think he himself has even said he thought it could be 30, 40, 50 boys over the years.

I mean, it's really depressing to hear that. It is. That could have happened. And I go back to your point of how. How did he think he was going to get away with that? Yeah. But yet he did. So what does that mean?

That the boys either were too ashamed to tell someone, right? Which is sad in its own right. Or they did tell someone and nobody believed them. Or they told someone they went to police and police just couldn't put it together. There's a number of different scenarios there. Yeah. The first two are sad, though. Oh.

Being too ashamed to come out and say. that somebody did something they shouldn't have to you. Right. Or coming out and saying it and a parent or somebody saying, I don't believe you. I just think it would suck really bad for a kid, like get the courage to say what happened to him. And then for somebody to say, we think you're making it up. It's not right. It would, it would, I don't know if it would be as bad, but it's like being victimized twice.

Yeah. Just heartbreaking. So in addition to these polls. that he had taken himself, Art also had over 100 pictures that he had cut out of, you know, underground pedophile magazines. He had some pornographic films involving underage boys. And I think some of these were homemade as well. Gibbs detectives were shocked. And I think anybody would be to see that type of evidence laid out in front of you the very next day. This is July.

July 24, 1983, Arthur Bishop led authorities to the bodies of his victims in Cedar Valley. He showed them the exact spot where they could find the remains of Kim Peterson, Alonzo Daniels, and Danny Davis. Detectives and anthropologists dug deep, and they found the bones of all three boys. Then he took them to the spot near Big Cottonwood Creek where police found the remains of Troy Ward in Graham Cunningham. Now, the first four boys had been dead for quite some time, but Graham had not. I mean, this was within two weeks. It's pretty new.

Ten days or so after he was murdered, they found his body. So Gibbs, you know when you're researching a case and you stumble upon like a kind of a sidebar or like another path. Right. After Arthur was arrested, his younger brother, Douglas was arrested. So he was seven years younger than Arthur, which meant in 1983 he was 23 years old when he was charged and convicted on multiple charges of sodomy involving young boys. He was found guilty and sentenced to four, five year to life sentences.

Well, this is running in the family. How strange is that? Wow. That two men, brothers, separated by seven years, are both involved with malicious. lesting young boys. Kind of makes you wonder, was there more in the childhood than ever came out? I think so. I think for one to have that type of urge.

And to act on it. And to act on it. But for another sibling to do the exact same thing? Very scary. And just as alarming for the other siblings that aren't doing it too, right? They're like, who are these guys that grew up in our family? And what made them do what they did? Yeah.

Do I have something in me that's going to cause me to do something bad? You'd have to ask yourself that question. Well, sure, yeah. But I think you'd also be concerned just because now your last name is their name and you're going to be associated with these two siblings. And people would wonder, do you do it too? Oh. Your two brothers do it.

Yeah, other people would be asking that question for sure. Arthur Bishop went on trial in March of 1984. But, I mean, really, Gibbs, this wasn't a trial. about guilt or innocence, right? We know he killed these five boys. He admitted to it. Sure. He confessed.

And right away, his defense team admitted that he murdered these five boys. They said that to the jury. It was really about his mental state at the time. I think his defense team was trying to get the jury to consider manslaughter instead of first degree murder. And to do this, they brought on a bunch of doctors to test. as to Bishop's state of mind in his reasons behind why he did what he did. And there was some really strange stuff that came out from some of these doctors.

I mean, it was very hard to understand so much so that I didn't even want to try to get into it. But basically, they had all kinds of theories. Different doctors had different theories about why this man wanted to kill young kids. And I mentioned one of them up front, right? The fact that he said he was molested at the age of five or six, Dr. said that timeframe was kind of stamped somehow as his sexual predilection. I don't know how else to say it.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how that all works, but I kind of can understand what they're saying. It's not right. The prosecution had one of the detectives read aloud Bishop's 50. minute confession. At one point, he said, I can't pass a kid on the street without looking down to see what kind of crotch he's got. And it's just not right. Wow. No, it is not right. No. You should not be looking at the nether regions of little kids. It's just not something you should be doing. And to have that compulsion to want to look there at every little boy that passes by. Wow, man, I just, I don't understand it.

Oh, and either. I can't even comprehend that. He ended the interview by saying, I'm glad you caught me because I couldn't stop. I would do it again if I had a chance because when I get around little kids, I get shaky. I get turned on. I mean, this is what he told the cops in his confession. So scary, man, to think about that. That people are out walking the street thinking that in their head pretty much every

second of the day. And you can say it about any group of people, young boys, young girls, females in general. I mean, just that they are thinking all the time, I want to do something bad to that person. Or a person in this category. Right. That is a scary thing. But I'm pretty sure Gibbs that that confession is just about all the jury needed to hear. Oh, yeah. You know, I don't, you could have had a million doctors come on and say this is why he did it he couldn't help himself okay but you hear that for 50 minutes and the very sick details of how and why he committed his crimes and probably in the way that he's been on some of these voice messages that we've been hearing yeah so casual dry casual, just so matter of fact.

Now, did take the jury over 12 hours of deliberation to reach an agreement on his sentence. They worked on it until 1 o'clock in the morning on March 23rd, 1984. So they could have adjourned. They could have come back the next day. And they said, no,

we're going to power through. We're not leaving. When they came back, Arthur, Gary Bishop was sentenced to death on five counts of first degree murder. Seems fitting. for the crime. Yeah, I would say that for people that are not vehemently opposed to the death penalty, you kill five small boys. Yeah. We're going to give it to you. Unless you're just staunchly against it altogether, who else you're going to give it to? I mean, that's the perfect person to give it to.

And the fact that he said, I wasn't going to stop. You let me out right now. I'm going to find the next boy I see. I'm going to do very bad things to him. You're not going to send me to prison and rehabilitate me. Now, you can put me in prison for the rest of my life. Right. And just keep me there until I die. Still going to be me. I'm going to do my thing.

After the verdict was handed down attorneys and the victim's families, you know, they made statements, as they often do, Bishop's defense attorneys told reporters, quote, personally, I think it's very sad that the jury has opted for more violence and more bloodshed, I think this is a real setback for civilized people. Now, of course, his attorney didn't want Bishop to get the death penalty. That's what they were trying to avoid. Right.

And we know there are millions and millions of people that probably feel that very same way. But at the same time, this attorney is saying that the men and women on the jury who had to make this very difficult, agonizing decision. It's not an easy decision to sentence somebody to death that they're not civilized people because this is the decision that they made. I mean, the part that's not civilized is what the client did. That's not civilized. Nothing civilized about that.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I just thought it was a kind of a strange statement to make. Now, the victim's families had much different opinions. Reed Davis, the father of four-year-old Danny Davis said, I was afraid we were going to get slapped in the face. It would have been an insult if he got anything less than death. So he's pretty candid. Yeah.

He wanted this guy to die for what he did to his little four-year-old son. The parents of 13-year-old Graham Cunningham said, it's not going to replace Graham. But I hate to think that guy would be sitting in prison in any form of life. And Gibbs, I have to believe. I would probably be feeling the exact same way. Yeah. I think if someone killed one of my children, one of my loved ones,

I don't want to think of them getting three hots in a cot and watching Judge Judy. Yeah. Until they grow old and die. I just don't want to think of it like that. It's not fair. They shouldn't be allowed to have that. No, you and I have been pretty honest. We're not opposed to the death penalty.

So, well, in this situation right here, absolutely not. Yeah, I got to be honest about that. I do not blame the parents of these murdered children for wanting this guy to die. It's very hard for me to, to blame them or to think that I wouldn't feel in the exact same way. Yeah, I agree. Now, Gibbs, you and I often talk about how long it takes for convicted killers who received a death penalty to actually have that death sentence carried out. out, right? We've done cases 20, 25, 30, 35 years in some cases from guilty verdict and sentencing to actual execution. Yes. Not with Bishop because after his automatic appeal was rejected by the

Utah Supreme Court in February of 1988, he waived all further appeals and actually requested that he be put to death ASAP. And the state said, you know what? We're okay with that. Yeah, we're take that order and run with it. They set his execution date for June of that year. So basically, all right, you tell us in February, four months later, we're going to put you to death. He was executed by lethal injection at 12, 16 a.m. on Friday, June 10th, 1998.

He didn't take his last meal. What's up with that? It's trying to prove. Well, apparently he went on a fast. Like, I don't know if it was a straight hunger strike. Yeah. But he went on a fast. But he only did it like a day and a half before his execution.

Yeah, it was really, really a tough fast there. Seems strange, but, okay. Maybe it was the last little bit of control that he had in his life because he had none. Right. And maybe he thought, okay, this is the one thing I can do. Maybe he was just one of those people that didn't want to, you know, shite on himself. I don't know. Well, the more sent shiting on yourself.

No. I just, I just don't know what his reasons were. His last words were, give my apologies to the families of my victims. Okay. As far as last words go, not horrible. He didn't go double bird. He didn't say, I'll see y'all in hell. Or, you know, he didn't say anything derogatory.

Right. But some have. That some people have. He did give a one and a half page statement to the warden before. before his execution. And in the statement, he wrote that he did commit the five murders, but only the five murders. He said he was a homosexual pedophile, but added that a huge reason for his crimes was pornography.

He did express some remorse. He apologized to the families of his victims. And in one part of the statement, he wrote, I realized that I allowed myself to be misled by Satan. And as a result, my life has been marked by wicked, perverse, and depraved actions. In another party, he said, I leave this life with no ill feelings towards anyone. Okay. Well, that may be the case, but there are a ton of people that have ill feelings, very ill feelings towards you, my man.

I don't know who you're going to have ill feelings towards. You're the one ruining people's lives. Yeah. it's not them it's you buddy is that the it's not me it's you speech it is exactly what it was you've given that many times it's not you it's me i said it backwards or received it i don't know i could have been on the receiving in that conversation a few times i think most of us have yeah most of us have at at least once or twice in our lives it's not great no it's not great it doesn't soften the blow the it's not you it's me speech i'd rather just say it is me

You know, and just be done. Because my thought is by saying that, you're telling me it's me. Yeah, exactly. You're trying to say it in a nice way, but that's what you're saying. When you walk out that door and leave me with this bill at the restaurant, I still know it's me. Okay? It gives, as we wrap up this case, one thing that I found very interesting about this one was the fact that Bishop was interviewed by police a number of times before he was caught.

They had his description. but you know in the reporting it said okay these weren't deep interviews these were just cops that were stopping by because he was in the neighborhood he lived around where all these murders were taking place they were just asking him if he knew anything that didn't seem all that strange right no what did seem strange is when you get into a lot of the papers reporting that police focused in on the families of the victims in at least four of the five murders. Yeah.

I mean, they dug up Kim Peterson's parents' basement looking for his body. Wow. And it was reported that police were getting ready to arrest Kim's dad right before Art confessed to the murders. Like, they were actually trying to get a warrant for, for this guy's arrest. Had nothing to do with it. No. But it was going to have to take the fall, most likely.

They looked hard at Troy Ward's mom and her boyfriend, even saying that they took and failed polygraph test. Well, we know that happens, but it's still alarming, right? I mean, this is the stuff they're putting out there. Well, it's alarming because obviously they're putting a lot of emphasis on the family, which is somewhat normal to take a look at them. But if you're taking a look at them to the detriment of finding the real killer, okay, did you just say, allow additional boys to be molested and or murdered because you're going down the wrong path. I don't know. Oh, either, but scary to think.

There's no way to know for sure. But it's scary to think that you're the dad or, you know, the mom of a child that has disappeared and please think you did it. Yeah. To then later find out, no, we know you didn't do it because this is the person that did it. And sorry. Yeah, we're sorry. Sorry to accuse you of doing something like that to your child.

There were a number of other murders that police thought Bishop could have been involved in. One of them was the beating of his young friend's father. I mentioned, right, this boy that he used, for lack of a better term, his dad died in some type of bar fight incident. Like that one Nick Cage got involved with? In Conair. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was probably pretty similar.

But they thought it was possible that it was actually Bishop that had done it based on the fact that it was just after the dad's death that he began exploiting this young boy. So the theory was, did he kill this man because he had designs on doing this to his son? Wow. It could have been. It's an interesting theory. The problem I have with it is Arthur Bishop, to me, seems like he was probably a coward. I don't think he could have taken on a grown man. I kind of agree with you. He

picked on, you know, very small. Even some of the children that were 11 and 13. Yeah. It said they looked three, four years younger than what they really were. I think he, he picked on very small kids, victims that he would have considered easy targets. Right. That's what I believe. And deep down, I think he was a coward. Oh, I agree with you. He was not going to take on a full grown man or take that chance. I don't think. But it's a very interesting theory because of the timing.

Goes against everything that he was doing. So why would he? There were several young children that disappeared in 1982 and 1983 from around that same area. And their disappearances and murders had all the hallmarks of an or, Arthur Bishop murder. But police could never pin them on art. And he maintained to the day that he died that he committed the five and only the five

murders. But who knows? You and I talk about that all the time. Yeah. I think he did more. Personally, I feel like he definitely did more. Yeah.

I'm kind of split on it. I really don't know. What I do believe is that Arthur Bishop molested probably 40 or 50 children. children because like I said, they, I don't even think they were able to identify all the kids in the pictures. I don't know how many. I don't know what the number could have been. I think at one point he told them that it was a large number, but I don't know if he ever said exactly, because he may not have known what the number was. But that's it, Gibbs. That's it for the case of Arthur Bishop. I mean, just a waste of a human being. Just a waste.

Oh, I shouldn't even call him a human being. I wouldn't. He's lower than that. Scum. Yeah. But we had some voicemails. Yeah, let's hear. Hi, Mike.

Hi, Gibby. This is Lisa from Ontario, Canada. I love the show. And with all this social distancing thing and trying to stay inside, trying to do more into our activities, while I listen to different podcasts have definitely been my thing. Now, listening to you guys, I've been doing that for a while since I've, found them and I really enjoy them when I'm doing chores and riding my horses. And the hubby's not into true crime.

So we listen to other ones like history. So here's where I'm coming to you guys. We were listening the other day to a history podcast and they were talking about weird things in history and they were discussing how people paid to watch two train wreck, two trains, go down the track, head to head, smash up. And that's where essentially watching a train wreck come from. And it made me think of you, Mike and Gibby how Gibby's floundering and Mike just sits there and let him flounder.

It's like watching a train wreck and he gets a thorough enjoyment out of it. Anyways, hope you too, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. That's actually pretty funny. I do like to learn the kind of behind the scenes of where these phrases came from. Most of time they're very interesting. I actually didn't know that. You didn't know that. Mm-mm.

I knew that. Did you know that? Well, yeah. I think what's even more funny than when I let you flounder, right? Is if people could hear all the outtakes. Oh, my gosh. They. I don't know.

I mean, just from this episode. Oh, yeah, yeah. This is that so it was good. They would get a kick out of it. Yeah. Because sometimes Gibby is very on point. He's very alert. Sometimes he says some stuff that I don't even understand.

Dan, what is coming out of his mouth? And when you ask me, I don't know what I, did I say that? You sure? Play that back. This is Nessa from San Antonio. I really love your podcast. I recommend it to anyone I meet. Whenever I'm traveling, I always tell people about what I'm listening to.

I have just found you last year, so you're a couple years ahead of me, but I have binge listened and I loved it. And then I was so sad that I finally caught up because that's the beginning. But the interesting thing about listening to the beginning of the podcast, is how different that you found now. And I want to say, especially you, Mike Ferguson, that you found so episodes one in the introduction. And now whenever you talk,

it sounds like your voice is so happy. So I'm glad that you're really enjoying it now and coming into your own. And I really love Team Mike and Team Gilly because I love you both. Well, stay safe and keep your own time picky. So what they don't understand is the Mike Ferguson in episode one, two, one and two?

Mm-hmm. he's no longer with us. It's a totally different Mike Ferguson. Yeah, we just had to keep the same name. Actually, his name is really not Mike Ferguson at all, but he goes by Mike Ferguson just for the podcast only. So how's that? For the sake of continuity.

Yeah. We didn't want to break continuity. No, I mean, we're two episodes. It was much easier to replace me than it was you, right? That makes perfect sense. Well, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't even in episode two, you know? I was only in one.

And I got, you know, they said, bring that give me back too. And you only said probably six words in three. Probably. That's probably one of the most words I've ever said. No, but, you know, I think it's like with anything, well, we just talked about it. You get more comfortable, right? As time goes by. The other thing, you know, I was working full time back then.

Yeah. And doing a lot of research. And so I'm in a different place too. It was that newness, right? It was. Figure out how should this sound. How should we do this? No, it's just kind of like, all right, this is how we do it.

If people like it, they like it. And if they don't, they don't. Yeah. That's how we roll. It works well. I like what we do. Hi, Mike. Hi, Ghiby.

It's Jess from Pennsylvania. Currently working from home due to the virus. So hope you guys are safe. I'm a new listener and I was listening to you guys. And I didn't see an episode for Elizabeth Bathory. And I was reading up in her. It looks like she's one of the most horrific. um, serial killers from way back in a day talking like 13, uh,

hundred, I believe, but I was wondering if you guys would do an episode on her. Um, I think it'd be really interesting to hear you guys do it and your take on it. Ken, hope you guys are staying safe. Thanks. Bye. Yeah. She is definitely on the list. Yeah. What, what I will say is it's kind of hard to get a lot of newspaper articles from the 1300s. I know Gibby, you have a special subscription. I do. That gives you. Yeah. Special access. Dark age subscription access from the dark web. But again, definitely on the list, those older cases are harder to me in the fact that,

okay, the information you're going to find is probably the same information that any podcaster would find. Not going to get a lot of variance. No. And, you know, not to say that we can't do it and we can and probably will. I mean, a lot of the cases that we've been picking are the ones where, okay, you can get some good nuggets, but you really got to go through. Got to dig. Tons of different articles and things like that.

A good suggestion. I'm excited to be leaving you. My name's Amanda, and you'll have a field date with her name. It is Sykes. I'm calling from Brisbane in Queensland in Australia, and I have just been binging the true crime all the time podcast. I do animal rescue. so I'm often in my car for long hours at a time and going everywhere. So I listen to true crime.

Who doesn't when they're collecting animals for rescue? So I just want to say hi. Keep up the good work. I love the episode. Your benta back and forth is just amazing. So I'm really looking forward to catching up a little bit more and listening to some more. So from Australia to you guys and from all the animals in my rescue, keep your own time ticking.

Bye, guys. Well, at first I thought she said she was calling from prison. It was like, what, Wentworth? What? What's going on there? I'm calling from prison. Yeah. Prison.

But it's cool that she does all that. No, that's awesome. Yeah, I'm very appreciative of people that do that type of work. Yeah. You know, that's something that I think I would get into, but I don't. Does that make sense? No, I get it. You'd want it.

You would like to do that kind of work. Yeah. Like, I feel like I'd like to be more selfless and give back in ways like that. Now, some people might say, okay, you're giving this to us. You and I are giving this out to the world. Okay, we are. I guess I don't view it the same way as rescuing an animal because I think that's very noble.

But there have been people that have told us and, you know, you not saved us, but you really helped us through this, this and this. Okay. I feel good about that. Yeah. Well, maybe one day you can go save a few animals or something. Well, maybe we can get hooked up together and she can teach me how to save animals. Yeah.

I mean, do I have to go to prison or can I go to Brisbane? I think you're going to, for you, you would not do well in prison. I would not do well. You should go to Brisbane. First of all, I'm way too pretty. Then you have that. No, I just would not. You know me.

I don't do well with rules. It's why I would have a hard time serving in the armed forces. A much harder time serving time in prison. You really have a bigger problem with authority. Well, authority rules. But authorities your other, probably your bigger problem. Yeah. It's a wonder I kept a job for as long as I did.

You know what? You had the perfect role you were in. Yeah. That's how you were able to survive. All right, buddy. No mail bag. No bail bag. No bail bag this week.

I know we got something special on its way. Really? From a very special person? Good friend. Okay. One of your favorites and one of mine. All right. But, and it's understandable, right?

People aren't sending a lot of packages and for a good reason. Right. But that's it. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world.