True Crime All The Time - Audrey Marie Hilley

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Audrey Marie Hilley seemingly got away with poisoning her husband in 1975, but she came under suspicion when her daughter displayed the same symptoms four years later. Hilley was suspected of poisoning multiple family members for several years. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss serial poisoner Marie Hilley. Hilley poisoned family members to collect on their life insurance and anyone else who got in her way. This included friends, neighbors, and even the police. This woman was consumed with greed and would stop at nothing to get what she wanted.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 346 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good, man. About yourself. I'm doing very well. Yeah.

You know, my wife and I are struggling a little bit this week. We dropped our youngest off at college and, you know, it's just the two of us. Yeah. And it hasn't been that way essentially for 22, 23 years. You guys playing that song, just the two of us? And yeah, with candles and no. Yeah, no. That hasn't happened yet.

But I'll suggest it to her. Yeah, see how it goes. Yeah. Yeah, I remember my kids, I kicked my kids out at 18. I was like, get out. Go. Goodbye. You lie.

You would never do that. All right, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Carolyn. Hey, Carolyn. Christine Kenny. What's up, Christine? Kelly Bard. Hey, Kelly.

Demetrius Anderson. I appreciate that, Demetris. Anya Hoffman. Oh, Anya. Danita Briscoe. Hey, Danita. Melissa Rogers jumped out at our highest level. Well, thank you so much, Melissa.

Michelle Mills. Hey, there's Mills. Silly Lil bit. What's up, silly? Tiffany Wallace. There's Wallace. Janay Say. Hey, Janay.

Easy My 411. Oh, appreciate that easy. And last but not least, Misty Summer. Well, I like that name Summer. Yeah. Yeah. Misty, too. Okay.

If we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Emily Garten. Hey, appreciate that, Emily. Yeah, appreciate the new support, the continued support on Patreon. We also had a few great PayPal donations from Christian Kaufman. Hey, Christian. Deanna Johnson. What's going on, Deanna. And Tara Lynn Love. Everybody needs some love. Everybody does. So appreciate that as well. So I should make an announcement, Gibbs. Morph and I made one on criminology, but we are going to have like a joint criminology T-Cat meetup at CrimeCon. And I think it's Saturday night at 9 in like the Marriott kind of main bar place, I think.

I'll really good with information. Yeah, I'll double check. But people, a lot of people have been asking about the meetup. So there definitely is going to be one. I know it's Saturday at nine. I'll confirm the location, maybe next week. What you have on your cowboy hat or something? Some type of hat or?

Well, I guarantee I have on some type of hat. Like Mickey Mouse ears. Something. Something. We'll see. We have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved right now on Barbara Follett, a famous children's author, got married, got into a fight with her husband one day, walked out of the house and kind of vanished.

Never to be seeing again. Yeah. So if you haven't done so yet, make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about a poisoner by the name of Audrey Hillie. Audrey poisoned a number of people in her family. And she almost got away with it. Audrey Marie Frazier, who went by the name Marie was born on June 4th, 1933. Her parents were Huey and Lucille Frazier. Marie grew up in Anastel. Alabama. You ever heard of Aniston? Just Jennifer. You know, we were talking, what was that last week or a couple of weeks ago about that city in Alabama that, um, Forrest Gump was talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And you said it was Tuscaloosa. And I said it wasn't, but I couldn't remember the name of it. Belmont. And a lot of people have sent in their thoughts. Yeah. Mobile, Greenville. But, and I haven't gone back to confirm it. And I haven't gone back to confirm it, but it's like green bow, I think. Sounds so familiar. Maybe it's, I'm thinking Beaumont, but maybe it is green bow or something to that effect.

I'll have to go back and listen to it and check it out. Greenbow, Alabama. Something like that. Yeah. Marie was raised by two aunts for most of her childhood because her parents worked long hours. However, according to researchers from Radford University, her parents spoiled her and she had little discipline. Marie reportedly through violent tantrums when someone tried to discipline her. Well, you know what happens if you don't discipline a child the right way? No discipline. I mean, think of the umpa-unpa songs.

Did you say umpa-unpa? Yeah, and the Willy Wonka show. Because I'm pretty sure it's umpa-lumpa. Oh, yeah, those guys. No, these are different guys that you're talking about. But there is a thing, right? And it's something my wife and I really worried. about we wanted our kids to have nice stuff we wanted them to have the things they wanted but at the

same time we wanted them to not be spoiled we wanted to make sure that they respected the value of things and and ultimately they have turned out that way i'm not saying we did a great job maybe it just worked that way or maybe we did it do okay sometimes it can be a tough line to walk it is it is because you want you want to give your kids things everything if you can sure but you don't want them to turn out you know like a a cartoon version of a spoiled you know little kid right marie met her future husband frank hilly in 1946 but their relationship was described as contentious you ever had a contentious relationship besides ours i was just saying besides you mean besides this one besides the one you and I have. The word contentious is such a strange word to me because I feel like it could mean

a bunch of different things. It could mean you're all out fighting all the time. Right. Or you just don't agree on everything. You know, you have little disagreements and spats or you're throwing down in the kitchen. I don't know. I think you just have to break it down because I think most marriages and relationships have little arguments throughout the time. Well, at times, it can be contentious. I would say almost all marriages to some degree. So Frank was a junior in high school, and it was said that Marie was in junior high. On May 8, 1951, Marie and Frank got married while he was on leave from the Navy.

Frank sent his paychecks to Marie so that she could save them, but she spent the money. without telling him. And apparently this was a pattern throughout her life. Marie was suspected of stealing money, lying about finances, and reportedly involved in insurance scams a number of times. Now, we'll talk about some of these incidents, but we can't cover all of them in one episode. That's how many there were. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, when you're not saving the money, when you're supposed to and you're spending it and you're lying about it, then that snows balls into another cover up. And before you know it,

you know, maybe you felt like you have to steal money, maybe perform a little insurance scam to get some money coming in. You've got to be careful out there, you know? Well, and I think of the bond between, you know, partners and the amount of trust that you have with somebody.

Sure. Who you marry, and let's just talk about the financial piece of it. Usually one person in the relationship does the bills. My wife does all the bills. Right. I have no idea how much money's in our checking account. Could she technically squirrel it away and build a little nest egg? Not much of one, because we don't have all that much.

But you know what I'm saying? It's like, I'm trusting her so much to make sure that the bills are paid. Right. we save a little bit of money. And now this guy is not home. So he's really trusting her. He's sending all of his paychecks to her. There's no oversight.

No, there's no way he could have oversight. And it just sounds like she was a person who spent, spend, spend, I'll figure out how to get more money later. Yeah, I'll figure out how to put things back into the account. Yeah. Before he comes home.

In 1952, Marie moved to California to be with Frank, but when he was discharged from the Navy, they moved back to Aniston, Alabama. Marie described living in California as the happiest time in her life. And a lot of people do like living in California. Yeah, if you can afford to live there, depending on where it is. Upon her return to Alabama, Marie got a job as a secretary. Frank worked as a shipping clerk.

Their son, Michael Hilley, was born on November 11th. 1952. Marie was 19 years old at the time. And we mentioned it. They started dating when she was in junior high. Yeah. So they got married. Now they've had a son. She's still only 19 years old. In 195, Marie followed the case of a woman named Nancy Hazel Dawes. This was an Alabama woman who confessed to killing four husbands, her mother, sister, grandson, and mother-in-law. I don't, do you remember, remember this one Gibbs, we covered it on a previous T-Cat case. I do. We already mentioned that Audrey or Marie turns out to be a poisoner.

So the mere fact that she was following this case, I mean, it's a little bit of foreshadowing of what's to come. It's almost like she idolized. Or she was taking notes. She was thinking, well, if this woman could do it, I could do it, but I'll get away with it because I'll do that. This, if you think about it, this is, you know, this is not a time where true crime was big at all, right? It wasn't even really known. Yet she's following this case. It kind of tells you what you said.

Foreshadows. In 1959, Marie wrote letters. She claimed were from other men and she showed them to Frank. Now, she refused to let him read the letters. Instead, she tore them up in front of him. And she left the scraps where he could easily find them. Frank eventually learned that she wrote them all herself. And when he confronted her about it, Marie said she did it because she feared he didn't love her anymore. So wanted attention, sounds like, right? Yeah, I mean, I think she wanted attention, maybe also wanted to make him a little jealous. She wanted to feel that spark, that something between the two of them. Seems like a strange way to do it, but yeah, I kind of see what she was going for.

It seems like it would have been easier just to sit down and say, hey, what's going on? It would be. But you wrote the same darn letters that you said other co-hosts were sending you, you know. Tor them up in front of you. Yeah. It said, you know, and I'd read them like, that's really strange. It looks like the same writing, each one of these letters, you know, and I don't know. I'm still here.

It was said at this time that Marie was spending over twice her monthly pay on clothes and luxury items. She always checked the mail early to hide the bills from Frank. So, you know, when it came to money, she was very secretive. And I think she had to be just because she was spending too much money. Now, my wife can't really hide that because I can hear the garage door opening when the Amazon guy comes. And so I pretty much have a good idea of what she's buying. Yeah, I think your phone dings too.

too when something is delivered. It does. I mean, you know, when you start to know Amazon drivers by name, you're inviting them in to have dinner every now and then, you're probably ordering too much stuff. That's what I told my wife. I think the other day you were like talking to the one about him co-hosting the podcast if I couldn't make it on time.

Yeah, because he's here so often. He was already here. I thought, well, if it has to go that route, Marie and Frank's daughter, Carol Marie Hillie was born on January 14th, 1960. As she grew up, Marie was disappointed by what she called Carol's plain looks and her unwillingness to wear dresses. When Carol was older, Marie suspected that she was a lesbian, which made her anger. She flew into violent rages with Carol's friends, and later Carol would be the victim of some of

Marie's insurance scam attempts. So, yeah, we're not in wife slash mother of the year territory here. No, of course not. By any means. I mean, it's her daughter. You know, she should accept her daughter for however her daughter wants to be, right? If she wants to be plain Jane and not wear dresses, she doesn't want to wear dresses. Yeah.

You know, if she, you know, has a preference either way. Who cares? It's your daughter. It is. Now, we are talking about the 1960s. Sure. Yeah. And that was a different time.

People were not very accepting of certain things. But we don't even know if she was a lesbian. It almost makes it sound like just because she had these plain looks, just because she didn't want to wear dresses, Marie suspected that she was a lesbian and that made her mad. Because you didn't wear a dress. Years later, Carol told the show snapped. I couldn't please her. no matter what I did. She didn't like what I wore.

She didn't like how I thought. She didn't like who I hung out with. In 1962, the family moved to a house that was closer to the wealthy area of Aniston. Marie wanted to have a high social status. So she started making contacts with prominent families in Aniston. I'm really getting the vibe here that, you know, this was a woman who cared about appearance.

Sure. status, what others saw. And maybe that was part of what made her upset about her daughter, not just because of what she thought, but what did other people think when they saw her? Yeah, she definitely was more concerned about what her and her family's appearance was to others. And we all already know she was materialistic. Right.

Kind of go hand in hand, don't they? They can. Yeah, definitely. around this time Marie's parents moved in with them. Marie's father died of cancer on December 11th, 1965. After her father's death, Marie suddenly asked to live with her sister-in-law,

Frida Adcock, who once saw her leaving with a strange man and suspected she had an affair. Michael Hilley graduated high school in 1971. The next year, Marie purchased a $25,000 life insurance policy for him and listed herself as the sole beneficiary. Okay. Already very suspicious.

Well, I think you'd have to be at this point. You know, we'd done a number of cases that involved murder for, for insurance proceeds. Anytime somebody is listed as the sole beneficiary,

I think it's strange in these types of circumstances. She's got a husband. Should he be on there? I would think so. You would think so. Seems a little, seems a little weird. Why are you taking an insurance policy out on your child, even at 18?

Well, I think we're going to find out, right? Pretty soon. Marie likely started to poison Frank's food with arsenic around the same time period. Frank eventually became so sick that he couldn't work, but doctors were unable to diagnose him. On May 19, 1975, Frank called Michael and said, he needed to talk to him about something, but it was too important to speak about over the phone. They agreed to meet in Georgia the next weekend. At this point, Michael was living in Florida. But Marie was secretly listening to the conversation. And coincidentally, Frank's symptoms worsened after the phone call.

Most likely ramped up the dosage. It's what it sounds like. Because why? She's afraid of what is going to be said in the phone call. conversation. Sure. Between Frank and her son, that would be my guess. That same day, Frank Hilley consulted Dr. Earl Jones about nausea and tenderness of the

abdomen. He was diagnosed with a viral stomach egg, according to Hillie versus state. On May 22nd, Frank was prescribed medication in capsule form for stomach spasms. Marie told Frank's sister that he was prescribed medication. via injection and she was authorized to give the injections. So a conflict there, right? Yeah. And, you know, for me, this is just a long line of lies.

You know, she just does not seem to be capable of telling the truth. Maybe that's not the best way to put it. Maybe it's more like she lies when she feels as though it's beneficial to her. But we know it's a lie because he wasn't, you know, given a set of needles to take home for somebody else to give him injections. He was prescribed medication in capsule form. On May 23rd, Frank Hilley was admitted to the regional medical center because his condition worsened. Lab studies indicated he was suffering from acute liver malfunction. Dr. Earl Jones then diagnosed him with, in fact,

infectious hepatitis. Carol told Snap, his face, it was really ashy colored, and his eyes were like really blood red. They took him on to the hospital and within a day or two, he was dead. Frank Hilley died on May 25, 1975. Dr. Jones requested that Marie Allow an autopsy due to the suddenness of his death. The autopsy found that Frank was suffering from hepatitis, swelling of the kidneys and lungs, bilateral pneumonia and inflammation of the stomach and duodenum.

His cause of death was listed as infectious hepatitis. He was suffering from a lot of different things. He was. Now, one thing that kind of jumped out at me was that she allowed the autopsy. Because in a lot of poisoning cases that you and I have done over the years, that's kind of something you see quite a bit. No, I don't want an autopsy done. And then invariably, the body is cremated fairly quickly. Right. But that's not what happened here. She obviously must have consented to the autopsy. Why?

I think she felt confident that she found a way to hide the poisoning the way that she gave it to him. Yeah. That was my thought exactly. If you're not confident, then I don't think you allow the autopsy. authorities later noted that arsenic poisoning and infectious hepatitis have similar symptoms. After Frank died, Marie received $31,140 in life insurance money. She purchased a car, a motorcycle, and furniture for her entire house. Because, you know, when you're grieving, that's what you want to do. There's nothing that takes the pain away like a motorcycle. Exactly.

Well, in that new lazy boy sofa that you can sit on and weep your tears. So $31,000 in 1975. What would that be today? We haven't done a little calculator in a while. So people, people, poop. Yeah, that'd be 80,000. I think you're way off. I think you're losing it.

Have I lost it? I don't know. I feel like it has to be a lot more than that. If you were making $31,000 in 1975, Wouldn't that have been a really, really good salary? Yeah. I don't know. Let's go with...

You're probably right on. I don't want to sway you. I don't want to sway you. If you had to sway me, I'd push it to maybe 102. Okay. Very specific, but it is. I really have no idea. But for some reason, it seemed to low to me.

You could be absolutely right. But this is, you know, another thing that doesn't seem to, you know, really make a person look all that great. No. You get this insurance money right away and you're like, okay, I'm going on a spending spree. Now, could that be something that a very innocent person does because they're grieving? Yeah, I guess it could be. Could be, but come on, you know, you come over to bring a lasagna over to her and you're at the door. She's like, oh, excuse me, can you step out of the way?

They're bringing in my new couch. I thought the motorcycle was the really interesting one. Yeah, yeah. Oh, by the way, when you walk back. back to your car, don't scratch my motorcycle, or my new car. Or my new car. In 1976, Michael and his wife, Terry, moved back in with Marie to take care of Lucille, Marie's elderly mother. Because by this point, Lucille had become sick. And soon after this, the residence of the house started receiving anonymous threatening notes, which stated that bad things would happen

if the family didn't leave Aniston. A neighbor named Doris Ford received similar notes. Marie also reported several cases of vandalism to her insurance company and collected payment. Sounds like she's got some potential scams running. Yeah, I think insurance-wise for sure, but, you know, it's the notes that really interests me. Anytime there's written communication, whether it's a killer writing to the police, or in some of the cases we've done, probably most notably on unsolved,

it's notes or phone calls that come to a victim. And it's not sure whether they're real, fake. Why all of a sudden would somebody start sending threatening notes saying, hey, you better get out of Aniston. Yeah. And also, neighbor, you should get out as well.

It was later determined that Marie wrote the notes and committed the vandalism herself. I don't think that's too shocking. No. People probably already figured that out. So she's vandalizing her own house and then filing insurance claims and pocketing that money. It's likely that Marie poisoned her daughter-in-law, Terry, which caused her to lose her pregnancy. Michael and Terry moved out of the house after this. Yeah, I don't know how you could stay in the house.

house, if you even suspected? Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, losing a child. Exactly. So incredibly difficult. And then if you even had an inkling that it was your mother, your mother-in-law that caused it. How could you? No, you'd be out of that house in a heartbeat. On September 5th, 176, Marie's house caught on fire while no one was home. She sued the Alabama gas company for $75,000. Although she lost her lawsuit, she still collected insurance money. Well,

she's good with this insurance scam stuff. She's got a lot going on. She's trying different things. And this one was even a little different because she tried to sue the gas company. I'm assuming on the basis that, you know, the gas caused the house fire or something like that.

After the fire, Lucille's health decline. Marie offered to inject her with pain killer. On January 4th, 1977, Lucille Frazier died from cancer. So I think one thing's for sure. You don't want Marie Hilly injecting you with anything. I don't think you want her...

Within 10 feet of you at any time? Yeah. Marie collected $600 from a burial policy. after Lucille died, the alleged vandalism worsened. Windows were broken, screens were cut, someone kept prank calling the house. They didn't talk. Instead, the family heard heavy breathing on the other end. Marie blamed her neighbor's 18-year-old son.

She claimed that he stole jewelry, gold candlestick holders, a revolver, a tear gas gun, and a hairdryer. So she filed insurance claims for these items. okay it does seem like a strange collection the jewelry i get a revolver maybe i'm not sure who has a tear gas gun just laying around apparently she did and i have no idea what an 18 year old kid would want with a hairdry yeah uh i stole the hair dryer i got it guys you're not making a bunch of money uh on the used hair dryer on the used hair dryer market i wouldn't think but it was said that marie was contacting the police department almost daily about these issues. They traced her phone line and it showed that at least one call came from a phone

booth across the street from her house. Gee, I wonder who that was. Yeah. I mean, I think we all know who it's going to end up being. According to researchers from Radford University, during this time, Marie started bringing detectives baked goods, laced with different. doses of arsenic. She's such a nice lady.

She brings these baked goods into us and they taste so good. Because we're checking out, you know, all these bad things that are happening to her house. And, but how ludicrous is this? Now, it's one thing to try to poison family members where you're going to gain money. Yeah. It's a terrible thing. But now you're trying to poison detectives.

What is there to do? game. Maybe if one of the detectives die and if it ever comes back that it was from that type of poisoning, maybe it would make the other detectives look elsewhere. Like, well, we can understand how she might be, like somebody in her family died from it, but how did Detective Jones died from that, you know? Because she brought us baked goods. Yeah. So the connection seems like it's there to me, but it also could kind of throw them off a little bit. I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I'm failing to see the logic, but on June 17th, 1977, Marie contacted Detective Gary Carroll to report smelling gas fumes at her house. The gas company found a valve under the house that would release

gas if depressed. Well, you release gas when you're depressed. Yeah, I do. And there's no valve depressed whatsoever. No. But you can almost see how maybe she's setting up another. incident at her house involving gas involving fire. Yeah, of course. She liked that payout last time. Now, this time I'm going to get the detective to come out ahead of time. Maybe he'll confirm the smell of gas. And then when the house catches on fire, I'll win my lawsuit.

That's right. I'll get that $75,000 on top of my insurance payout. Against the gas company. Detective Carroll noted that the harassing calls stopped when the police were tracing Marie's phone. And then they started again once the trace was taken off. How convenient. Some of the calls made to neighbor Doris Ford were traced to the Jenkins manufacturing

plant where Marie worked as a secretary. So not the smartest person. No, I mean, it's something that you and I talk about a lot. I'm kind of shocked, to be honest with you, that people get away with some of the things they do, knowing how careless they were, how reckless they were. Now, ultimately, she's going to get caught. We know that. This is an episode of T-Cat. This is not unsolved. But I don't think we're talking about a criminal mastermind here. On July 22nd, 1977, another fire started in the house, this time in the closet facing Carol's bedroom door. Soon after, a fire started in the Ford home, while Marie.

and Carol were staying there. Marie accused Doris Ford's boyfriend of starting the fire. Now, I know house fires happen all the time, but to have so many in a short amount of time and then to have one next door when you're staying there. Yeah. I mean, this is so much more than a coincidence. It can't be a coincidence. People also get struck by lightning, but normally not two, three, four times.

There have been some people. but but rare yeah rare yeah well sure that guy in the benjamin button in what benjamin button okay just wanted to make sure i heard it but you know i mean she's not the brightest but she's still getting away with things i mean she did and that's what amazes me yeah she had a mentor right she studied that one she did woman's case she did and maybe you know in the 70s it was just a little bit harder to put everything together without as much in the way of computers and databases or whatever. But it's not like the police didn't know who this lady was.

She's trying to poison them. She's calling them out, you know, on a regular basis. That month, Marie sold her house for cash and moved into an apartment with Carol. In August, detective stopped returning Marie's calls because they believed she was making up the reports of harassment and that she was no longer in danger. And I think that tells you something right there, right? Police are supposed to protect and serve. But at a certain point, they thought, this lady's making all this stuff up.

Yeah, yeah. She can't be wasting our time with this. She's full of BS. In June 1978, Marie and Carol moved to Pompano Beach, Florida to live with Michael and Terry. They stayed for less than two months. and then move back to Aniston. I wonder why they move back.

I like Papua No Beach. It is nice. It is nice. I've never been to Aniston. Yeah. Maybe Aniston, Alabama is great too. Popano Beach is right there next to Fort Lauderdale. Michael later reported that Marie was obsessed with his newborn son, Joshua.

And he said he feared his mother would steal the baby and disappear. I think that's a legitimate fear to have with his mom. Well, this is the same son and daughter-in-law. who thought that she possibly poisoned Terry and caused her to lose one baby. So, yeah, I could see, I'm surprised they even let them move in with them. Marie and Carol moved in with her mother-in-law, Carrie Hilly. Carrie agreed to split the bills, but Marie kept Carrie's money for herself, and then she just hid the overdue bills.

You know, I don't know how she keeps these same games going, though. Because eventually it's going to come down to, hey, why isn't the light turning on? Yeah. Or you're going to get a notice that you're overdue or, and this is a scam that, like you said, you just can't keep going forever. And maybe this is part of the reason why she's moving around so much and and hopping from living with this person to that person. oddly Maurice insisted on sleeping on the living room couch with a crowbar and handgun within easy reach.

She left in the evenings and returned at night with rolls of $100 bills. Okay, that's strange. Strange. Now, even stranger because she claimed that she got it from typing jobs, but Carol and Carrie suspected she was gammon. I mean, I've come home with rolls of cash, but it's been singles. Yeah. been from when I used to perform at the senior club. As Rex West.

Yeah. That is understandable. Yeah. Take you 45 minutes just to figure out where they all were in the G string. I get that. But who has a typing job that pays them rolls of $100 bills? That's the typing job you want to have. Yeah.

Sign me up for that. But Kerry was so scared of Marie that she couldn't sleep at night. And I get it. If you know everything that is going on with this. woman. I don't think I would feel real comfortable when my head hit the pillow every night either. Yeah, you think in that relationship, she would have some type of trust. I mean, she was married to your son for a long, long time. Now, the sleeping with the crowbar and the handgun within easy reach on the couch, I know you do that too. I mean, that's more of a learned training type Jason

born thing, but... K-bar knife is always with me. But I don't know why Marie would be doing it. Maybe it has something to do with how she's bringing home these rolls of $100 bills. On July 27, 1978,

Marie purchased a $25,000 life insurance policy for her daughter enlisted herself as the beneficiary. Happy birthday, honey. I got you a beautiful present. I got a $25,000 life insurance. policy on you. For me. For me. So if you die, yeah, I get $25,000. Yeah. In April 1979, Marie started poisoning Carol. And some family members noticed that she was displaying the same

symptoms as Frank had. So she did wait. She at least had the sense to do that, right? Takes out the policy in July of 1978 almost waits a full year before she starts poisoning Carol. You can't do it the week after you take out the policy. I just kind of wonder, how much do you have to hate somebody to do this to them? Because you certainly don't love them. No, I don't think you love them, but do you necessarily have to hate them? Or as for me, the picture gets painted of Marie and in my mind. everything just revolves around money.

Greed. Above all else. It's not that I hate you, my daughter. Yeah. It's just that I love money more. I love money more. It is the sense that I get. On May 6th,

1979, Carol suffered such severe nausea that she was taken to the ER. She stayed in the hospital for three days, but doctors couldn't diagnose her. On the 8th, Carol came home from the hospital, but was violently ill in the morning.

Doctors thought she had a psychosomatic illness. Marie seemed very concerned for Carol and wanted to find out what was wrong with her. So they couldn't diagnose her. Then they began thinking, what? This is in her mind. Potentially. From April to August of 79, Carol was hospitalized several times. It was said that Marie poisoned everything she brought to the hospital,

causing Carol to lose about 20 pounds. Marie also told Carol that she found money from Frank's stock investments and she would give her $10,000 for a car. But when Carol was out of the hospital and tried to get the car, Marie poisoned her and she had to return to the hospital. What do you think she was attempting to do with this? I'll buy you a car. My thought is that it was an effort to.

and maybe allay suspicion on the part of Carol. Obviously, my mom's not trying to hurt me. She's going to give me $10,000 to buy a car. Yeah, she loves me. But there's no doubt that this was getting to Carol. She attempted to end her life by overdosing on Tylenol. In June 1979, Michael visited Marie and confronted her about her finances. She told him that Frank left her the stock in the company.

he used to work for, but she couldn't collect it. They made plans to go to the bank after breakfast. But Marie poisoned Michael's food so that he would be too sick to go. So there's a real pattern here. Anytime I don't want you to be able to do something, I will poison you. To make sure you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, eventually I'm going to kill people to collect on life insurance. But this is like poisoning just so. they don't figure things out. They're too ill to leave the house to go somewhere. Right. Yeah. That month, Carol decided to rent an apartment, despite her mother's objections, Marie started to insist that she spent the night with Carol.

Carol caught her mother disconnecting her phone, which she thought she was doing to avoid creditors. So again, sounds to me like Carol was trying to get away from her mom, but she couldn't. because Marie needs to be with Carol. Sure. Somehow she's going to collect on this $25,000 life insurance policy. To do that, she needs to be around her daughter, make sure her daughter's getting her daily dose. Exactly.

In August, the manager of her furniture store called Michael and told him that Marie's check had bounced. She purchased over $2,000 in furniture for Carol's apartment. Marie also sold a car. she purchased in her son's name without paying it off. Well, she's good at those type of scams. She is, but, you know, again, what it shows me is that she just didn't care about her family. She was willing to do pretty much anything to them in order to get money, to get what she wanted,

whether it was ruining their credit, or, as we're going to see, ultimately killing them. Also in August, Marie gave Carol an injection. She claimed would help her relieve nausea. After receiving the injection, Carol experienced numbness in her fingers and weakness in her legs. Again, go back to my earlier statement, do not let this woman give you an injection. I don't ever give you anything. On August 22nd, Carol was admitted to the Aniston Hospital.

But again, a doctor could not diagnose her. On the 29th, the doctor sent her to the Caraway Methodist Hospital in Birmingham to see Dr. John Elmore for a psychiatric evaluation. So it really does seem as though they can't diagnose what's wrong with her and they believe it's all in her mind. You know, psychosomatic. Now they're sending her to see a psychiatrist. Dr. John Elmore advised Marie to put Carol in the psychiatric ward of the hospital. hospital. By the time she was admitted, Carol couldn't walk or stand. Marie told friends and family that

Carol had leukemia. Now that right there gives me a little bit of a gypsy rose vibe. It sure does. It's almost as if we know that she's trying to poison her to collect life insurance money, but maybe she's trying to get a little sympathy out of it as well from other people. Carol received two more injections from her mother, Marie told her it would help improve the weakness in her legs. She also told Carol that no one could find out about the injections because she received the medication from Doris Ford, who was a nurse, and she could lose her job if someone found out. Doris Ford would later testify that she never gave Marie any medication. Carol promised she would keep the secret, but she told a friend about the injections.

and this friend told the family. Yeah, and thankfully so, right? Yeah, I mean, you know, we said, oh, you don't want this woman giving you any type of injection. But I think the thing that we can't forget about is that this is her mother. I mean, who do you trust more than your own mom? That's it, you know, I mean, if you can't depend on your mom to be there, to take care of you, not to harm you.

Who can you, right? Exactly. So it's kind of hard to put any of this. on Carol because I think most of us in this position, if your mom came to you, you know, my mom's a nurse. If she came to me and said, hey, here's what we need to do. Yeah. I trust my mom. She's not going to hurt me. You're going to say, okay, mom. Michael Hillie called the hospital. The staff informed him they did not authorize Marie to inject Carol. So she was banned from visiting, which obviously is a good thing. Michael also contacted the anesthetized.

and police department. And he was informed that his mom was under investigation for writing bad checks. Well, she was doing more than just writing bad checks. Yeah, I think that's all they knew about, right? At this point in time, on September 18th, Dr. Elmore informed Marie that he suspected Carol was sick from heavy metal poisoning. She checked Carol out of the medical center against the advice of doctors. And that sounds to me like she thinks.

thought they're getting close to figuring out what I'm doing. I better get my daughter the heck out of here. Marie told Carol they were going back to Anniston. Carol reminded her mother they didn't have a car. Marie told her she bought a car and the seller was going to pick them up. On September 19, Marie became sick with the same symptoms as Carol. So they went to university hospital and Marie had Carol admitted, not herself. Now, one thing I do think is very strange. I think most of the time, if you're a poisoner and you are really trying to kill somebody, right? You wouldn't want them to go to the hospital as much as her daughter is going. No, I think you'd want to try to avoid it. But it's almost like she faked the symptoms just to get Carol there so that she could admit her.

Dr. Michael Thompson contacted Dr. Elmore from the previous hospital, and he looked for symptoms of poisoning. He found what was called Aldrich Meese, Lines under her nails, which is a sign of arsenic poisoning. Dr. Thompson tested Carol's hair and found 50 times the normal arsenic level. Wow. Well, seems like a lot. It does. I don't know what the normal level is, but 50 times any normal level level. doesn't seem good, Marie was arrested in the hospital waiting room for bad checks worth

approximately $6,500. It's a lot of bad checks back then. It sure was. Carol was transferred to another hospital for a toxicology test, and there she tested positive for arsenic poison. And that's when detectives discovered that Marie took out a $25,000 life insurance policy on Carol and listed herself as the beneficiary. year. And my thought is that's when things had to start to click, right? In the minds of detectives,

law enforcement, something is not right here. The Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences tested Carol's hair on October 3rd. And they could tell by analyzing the hair at different lengths that Carol was given larger doses of arsenic over a period of four to eight months, right? So they can tell at the scalp, they can tell in the middle, they can tell what it is at the end. At certain points, it was a hundred times the normal level. Thankfully, her condition started to improve while she was at the hospital. But that only makes sense because Marie doesn't have access to her. She can't keep poisoning her, so she is going to get better. But what this did was it led authorities to look back at Frank's death.

Because if they thought that Marie was possibly poisoning Carol, I think it's a natural leap to question whether or not she had been poisoning her husband Frank. They exhumed his body. They took samples and found out that his body contained 10 to 100 times the normal level of arsenic. It was concluded that he died from arsenic. poisoning. He also suffered from chronic arsenic poisoning, which meant he was poisoned for months

before he died. Now, does this prove that Marie did it? I would say no, but I think police are heading in the right direction. Yeah, I think it helps, I think it helps him close in on her. Frida Adcock-Frank's sister believed Marie murdered him on October 6th. She searched her mother's home, where Marie and Carol used to live and found a medicine vial in an open cosmetic case. Arsenic was found in the vial. And on October 9th, 1979, Marie was arrested for attempted murder while she was in jail for the bad check charges. On the 11th, testing was performed on Lucille Frazier's body at the Department of Forensic

Science. The police later found significant but not fatal amounts of arsenic and. in the blood of Lucille Frazier and Carrie Hilly. It was said Carrie Hilly was being treated for stomach disorders at a local hospital. Gibbs, this woman was just running around poisoning everyone. She was. In her family. On October 21st, Frida Adcock found a bottle of rat poison in the basement among Marie's belongings.

This bottle contained an arsenic solution. On October 25th, Marie was indicted for the murder of Frank Hilly. the attempted murder of her daughter Carol and two bad check charges. Yeah, you threw the bad check charges in there for the extra stuff. Might as well. Yeah. The authorities suspected that Marie had poisoned multiple people, including other relatives, neighbors, and even business associates.

So I said she's out poisoning all of her family members. She's just poisoning anyone that either is in her way, she doesn't like. Well, we know she poisoned the police officer, the detectives. On November 9th, 1979, Marie was approved for bond and released from jail. Her attorney paid for her to stay in a hotel. Then I found that kind of odd. I do too. You know, if you think this is a woman who has poisoned people all over town,

you're going to let her out? Marie checked into the Birmingham Roadway in using the name Emily Stevens. She arranged a meeting with her attorney at the hotel. for November 18th. When he arrived, Marie was gone. He found a note in the room stating that Marie had been kidnapped and asking her attorney not to follow her. Yeah, that's going to be believable. I mean, I hate to laugh because people have lost their lives. And obviously, a lot of this story is tragic. But this is comedic in the way that, you know, she, went about this.

I mean, look, if someone wanted to kidnap her, they would just kidnap her. They're going to leave a note behind for her attorney. By the way, her attorney, please don't follow us. So first of all, they would have to know that she has a meeting scheduled with this attorney. Exactly. Second of all, they would have to know that she's staying there under an alias. There's the other part. So just really none of it makes sense, right?

Marie was reported missing, but obviously the police suspected that she faked her kidnapping. Carrie Hilly died the day Marie went missing. It was believed that she died of natural causes. The local coroner reported that the family told him she suffered from an ulcer and diabetes. On November 20th, the Calhoun County Sheriff announced that a car stolen from one of Marie's relatives had been found out of state. Marie was a suspect in the car theft and burglary of John Key, who lived in Blue Mountain, Alabama. Other items were taken from the house.

And a note was left that said, according to the Aniston Star, we got what we wanted. And if you call the police, we'll burn you out. The car can be found in Gadsden. So who's we? I don't know. When you write ransom notes, when you write these types of notes, you always say we, right? even if you're only one person. But here's what jumped out to me.

You're a thief basically saying, we'll get you if you reach out to the police. Oh, but by the way, your car can be found in Gadsden. Yeah, let me tell you where we're going to park it. Yeah, because we care about that. We care about the fact that we want you to get it back. And I don't think you're called the police and tell them to be looking for us in that town. In Gadsden. The car was actually found in Marietta, George.

Georgia, the authorities told the press that if Marie didn't show up for her December 3rd court date, a warrant would be issued for her arrest. On January 11, 1980, Marie was indicted for the first-degree murder of Frank Hilley by a Calhoun County grand jury. A federal warrant was issued charging Marie with unlawful flight to avoid prosecution after she failed to appear to stand trial for the attempted murder charge. In 1980, Marie met a man. named John Holman at a bar in Florida. She told him her name was Robbie Hannan and that she was a Florida resident. On May 29th, 1981, John and Marie, going by the alias Robbie, got married after just a few

months of dating. They moved to Marlow, New Hampshire. She got a job as a secretary in the city of Keene, New Hampshire. Wow, she was able to really work herself into that relationship and made him believe everything. Quickly. Yeah. And I'm thinking she got him to move from Florida to New Hampshire. Well, that's one way to throw off the scent. On January 4th, 1983, Detective Barry Hunter from the New Hampshire State Police began investigating the death of Robbie L. Holman. Back in the summer of 1982, Robbie Holman told John that she had to travel home to Texas to receive treatment for a blood disease

and to visit her sister, Terry Martin. In the fall, John received a call from Terry Martin, informing him that Robbie died, and her body was donated to sign. According to Terry, Robbie wanted her to travel back to New Hampshire to meet him. When she arrived, John noticed that she looked exactly like Robbie,

but she had lost weight, and her hair was a different color. She moved in with John and visited Robbie's, former workplace to inform them of her death. Terry also got a job at the book press in Battleboro, Vermont. Robbie's former co-workers were suspicious and they contacted the police. You can't make this stuff up. No, you cannot. Terry Martin had the local paper run an obituary on her sister, which was published on November 13th, 1982. Investigators were unable to corroborate the information in the obituary, and they came to believe that Terry Martin was a federal

fugitive. So on January 12th, 1983, Detective Barry Hunter and special agent David Steele from the FBI approached Terry Martin and informed her, they thought she was faking her identity. She agreed to go with them to the police station. So she's gone through all of this. Yeah. And this is a lot. It is a lot.

And then she's like, yeah, no problem. I'll go with you to the police station. Yeah. She knows she's going to be caught. Maybe she was just tired. Maybe because it would be tiring doing everything that she's done. After being informed of her rights, Terry identified herself as Audrey Marie Hilly. She said she was wanted on bad check charges and an attempted murder charge, according to State v.

Hilly. Other sources say that Marie only admitted she was wanted for bad checks and that the police ran her name through a database and realized she was wanted for murder. Marie explained how she faked her death as Robbie Holman and took on the identity of Terry Martin. So I just want to throw out a scenario. You're on the run, which is not that unlikely. No. It could happen. It could. And you say, hey, Ferg, I got to go visit somebody down in Texas. Yeah. You come back sometime later. You've lost some weight and you've changed your hair color and you have a new name.

Am I not going to know it's you? Yeah, I think you're going to be like, you can tell me your Rex West all you want. I know you're Gibby. That makes no. And she thought she was going to fake this guy out that she married just by losing a little bit of weight and changing her hair color. So Marie was eventually extradited to Alabama. John Holman was shocked to learn the true identity of his wife. I bet he was. But he continued to support her throughout the trial. How does that work? Obviously, he was really taken by her. Are you Robbie Holman?

Are you Terry Martin? Nope, neither. My name is actually Audrey Hillie and I'm on trial for murder. By the way, try this, uh, arsenic sandwich I made you. Easy on the arsenic. Yeah. I just feel like you'd be so shocked to learn the details about this woman, you know, you fell in love with, you married, but then you find out that she's wanted for murder, but through all that, you're going to, you're going to stand by her. You must have really been in love. Must happen. Jury selection for Maurice Trial started on May 30th, 1983. And we've, talked about, you know, a lot of the evidence that was presented at trial already throughout the episode. One important witness was Marie's former cellmate, Priscilla Lang. Lang testified

that Marie told her she poisoned Carol and Frank because she believed Carol was a lesbian and that Frank was standing up for her, which made her jealous. Well, that could have been somewhat true, but I think she still did it for the money. Oh, yeah. I think absolutely she did it for the money. you're right, she could have been upset about these other things, but I don't think that's the reason why she killed and or tried to kill. At first, Marie claimed she didn't know why she was charged, but a few days later, she blamed her sister-in-law, Frida Adcock. Around March 1983, she said she killed her husband and tried to kill Carol by dosing her food with arsoning. Lang testified that they planned an escape from the county jail two months earlier.

Marie claimed she had a cousin in North Carolina who could give them a tool to cut through steel bars. The plot failed when Lang was transferred to state prison. So I'm always leery of, you know, the cellmate kind of informant. I don't know that there was anything in it for this person. And for me, that does make a big difference. but it does ring a little bit true because we talked about Marie being upset that she thought Carol was a lesbian. And I think Marie had issues with anybody that came between her and any other relationship

with she was in, like even with her son. I don't think she cared for her son's wife. Life, yeah. Yeah, you might be on to something there. But to me, this does give Lang's testimony a little bit more. credibility because she's saying something that other people had said about Marie believing that Carol was a lesbian. Now, again, to your point, I don't think that's why she killed Frank and I don't think that's why she was trying to kill Carol. On June 8th, Marie was found guilty of first degree

murder and attempted murder. On June 9th, Marie was sentenced to life plus 20 years. The sentences were consecutive, meaning it would be 10 to 16 and a half years before she could get parole. According to the Aniston Star, Marie said at the sentencing, I still maintain my innocence. I did not administer poison to Carol. Marie lost her appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeals on April 23rd, 1985. In February 1987, Marie earned a three-day pass out of prison. This was her first weekend pass, but she had been given four eight-hour passes earlier with no incidents. She was released on February 19th and spent the weekend with John Holman at a boarding house in Aniston.

And, you know, this kind of shocked me. This is a woman who's in prison for murder, right? And, you know, we kind of talk about this happening in other countries. Sure we do. Canada, especially, people getting passes and allowed to. kind of go off on their own and then are expected to show back up at a certain time at prison. We don't hear about it as much here in the in the U.S. So this did kind of jump out of me.

So, you know, she spent this weekend with John and on her final day of freedom, she told him that she was going to visit her mother's grave. But instead, she went on the run for a second time. I can't go back, man. I'm going to make a run for it. It's part of why I don't understand the past scenario. Especially when people have the type of track record. Track record.

Yeah. And the charge that they're in for. I mean, she's not in for insider trading. No. Or tax evasion or something that is criminal, but not deadly. On February 22nd, 1987, Marie was declared a fugitive when she failed to return to prison. John contacted the police.

and told them Marie left a note saying she was going to Canada with a friend named Walter. Well, first of all, you can't believe any of her notes. Yeah, her notes are notorious for not being any good. If anything, their diversions, their falsehoods. At the time of her escape, Alabama was experiencing rain and low temperatures. On February 26, 1987, Marie was found on the porch of a home in Blue Mountain, Alabama. of Aniston. Around 1.30 p.m. on February 26th, a woman named Sue Kraft was driving home when she saw someone sprawled out on Barbara Thomason's back porch. The Thomassons were not home at that time. It looked like

the woman was trying to grab the door handle. Sue thought someone was breaking into the house, but later realized the woman was trying to get out of the ring. A woman named Janice Hines was sewing when Sue Kraft approached and asked her for help. They found Marie slumped on the porch. Janice asked the woman for her name and Marie told her sellers. She said her car broke down further down the road. She walked and crawled to get to the house. The women called the police and waited with Marie.

So it sounds like because of the rain and the low temperatures, she was in a bad way. Yeah. Exposure. Being out in the element. and she just wasn't doing well at all. I mean, it is February,

but, and I know it can get cold in Alabama, but I would think more often than not, you might be able to make it. But if, you know, if you're experiencing low temperatures and rain on top of that,

right, cold rain, you're not an experienced survivalist. You don't have anything with you. No. You're going to struggle. Yeah, I've heard that can be kind of agonizing

the pain from hypothermia. Oh, I'm sure it can. But that's okay. I'm sure the victims that she had poisoned had to deal with that type of pain. Even worse type of pain, I would say. But it seems to me as though, you know, she's lying obviously about her name and she doesn't want the police to find her, but what can she do? Officer Billy Lett arrived on the scene and called an ambulance. At first, he thought the woman was just drunk.

But then he realized she was wearing the clothes. clothes Marie Hilley was wearing when she escaped. Fingerprints confirmed her identity. So, you know, here's a police officer who was paying attention. I'm sure this bulletin went out. He read it. He remembered it. Marie was in such poor condition that she died before she arrived at the hospital. She was 53 years old. So I think that just underscores, you know, how bad her situation really what? Now, authorities had no reason to suspect foul play. The official cause of death was hypothermia. So you hit that nail in the head. Bruises and scrapes indicated that Marie was crawling in a wooded area before she found the house. Audrey Marie Hilley lied to and stole from her family and friends

throughout her entire life. And I think, you know, when you look at what she did, the act she committed, she used poison as a way to control the people closest to her. And no doubt, she was willing to kill members of her own family in order to obtain life insurance payouts. Although she was only convicted of poisoning Frank and Carol Hilley. It is suspected that she poisoned a number of other family members. We mentioned it, right?

Neighbors, associates. Right. We don't know how many people. It was a habitual poisoner. Yeah. She could have poison 10, 20, 30, 50. We don't have any idea. But to me, I mean, she was just one very, very greedy person.

Yeah. That's all I had to be greed. And I want to go back to something we talked about very early on, right? It was said that her parents spoiled her. She had very little discipline. Now, I'm not blaming her parents for what she ultimately did. But it does seem as. though she never grew out of that. She was spoiled her whole life or she wanted to be spoiled.

She wanted to live this lavish lifestyle. Yeah. And if she couldn't do it on the salaries that she and her husband made, okay, she was going to figure out another way to do it, bad checks, you know, selling cars that she took out in her son's name, not paying it off, taking the money. She felt like she does. She felt like she does. You know, deserve to have that lifestyle. Yeah, I think she felt entitled and she was going to do whatever she had to do to get it. And there have been a lot of people who have lived their lives like that, but to do it to your own family. It's another level. It is. There is a, there's an added element to it that you're willing to kill your husband. You're willing to

kill your daughter. I think she tried to kill her daughter-in-law. Yeah. Possibly her mother, although it said she died from cancer, they did find higher than normal levels of arsenic in her as well. So now you know why I carry around my food testing kit and I test everything before I eat it or drink it. I know it bugs you and everybody else that hangs around. Because we have to wait for you to get done with your testing.

It's a 15 minute wait period. Or we're bad hosts. Yeah. If we started eating before. But so far, worked out well for you, I guess. So far. But she was one nasty individual. Yeah, she really was to do that to your own family. Yeah. Anybody's bad, but your own family come back. I go back to us talking about, you know, you should be able to trust your mom. If you can't trust your mom, who can you trust?

Now, I know not everybody has maybe a great relationship with their mom, but I think more people do than not. Yeah, generally. Generally, I mean, you'd always be able to trust your parents. Yes, your mom brought you into this world. Who loves you more than your mom? And for the most part. Yeah. Not everything I say applies to everyone. I get that. But that's it for our episode on Audrey, Marie Hilly. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out?

Let's hear them. Hello there, True Crime all the time. This is Kathy out here in El Paso, Texas. I just want to say that I have recently discovered T-Cat and T-Cat-Unsolved. and I am just having a ball going through these episodes. And one thing I wanted to say is that recently I listened to Daniel Robinson, and on another podcast I had heard about this case, but I thought there must be more to the situation than I was hearing. And so today I found out that his demeanor changed once he met this young lady and became fixated on her.

And that's what was missing from before because I wondered why in the world all of a sudden he would change so much and just go off, you know, without telling anyone he was going anywhere. So I want to say thanks to you guys. Great job. I love the chemistry between you and Gibby. And I want to say that keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking. Man, I love when new listeners find us. Yeah. No, that's a great thing.

And you and I try to do our very best to give as many details as we can, to try to make the story make sense. Do we leave some things out? Sure. Do we miss things? I'm sure we do. But we try to do the very best that we can. We do. Hey, guys. This is your long time listener, Jada, calling again. I decided to wait to do Dennis Nielsen just in one week. So I just listened to part one and I'm on to part two here. But I like spit out my coffee laughing when you guys were, you know, talking about Buffalo Bill from Sarah. his alums and you're picturing him when he's tucking things away and wearing a kimono and then give he's like had you regret that and you're like which one you know tucking or wearing a

kimono he's like both and i died laughing my husband was like what are he listening to anyway you guys never fail to crack me up also i have a case suggestion because i recently learned about this. I'm a Canadian girl, but I just recently learned about the Ant Hill kids. Like, seriously, have you ever heard about this cult? It was out of the 70s and the 80s. I had never heard of it. I was mind-blown. It's absolutely the craziest thing I've ever heard since even the Manson stuff. So anyway, check it out if you haven't already checked it out and maybe put that on the list because it's so good. Love you guys. Keep your own time ticking. I have not heard of that.

Me neither. And so we will definitely put it on the list. I just watched kind of a short three or four episode thing on cults on Netflix. It was kind of strange the way that they did it. I didn't like how they did it. No, I didn't like the way they did it either because it was like almost like if you want to be a cult leader, here's what to do. I know what they meant. Sure.

But it all it was strange the way they did it. But I do like stories about cults. Yeah. And we probably need to do more. So we'll check that one out. To tuck or not tuck. That is the question. Maybe for you.

So that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. Now you got me laughing. So for Mike, Yeah, Givy. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.