True Crime All The Time - Bart Whitaker

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

On December 10th, 2003, Bart Whitaker went out with his family for a celebratory dinner. Upon returning home, they were shot by a masked gunman. Bart and his father survived, but his mother and brother were killed. Suspicion soon turned to Bart, but the investigation took months. When the police were finally ready to arrest him, he was nowhere to be found.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Bart Whitaker. What would make a seemingly good kid want to murder his family with whom he apparently had no issues? Friends and family said they were the ideal family. But, it turned out that Bart was keeping secrets from his family, and it's those, along with greed, that started him down a dark path.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 363 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, man, I'm doing good about you. I'm doing pretty well. Good. I know you're a little bit under the web.

Yeah, a little bit. But I think we'll make it through it. This is our second to last episode of 2003. We're taking next week off Christmas week. That's right. And then we'll be back to put an episode out on the very last day of the year. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to, you know, having a week off.

A little Christmas vacation. Yep. Christmas vacation. We're not taking you. Which is wrong, but. But we are taking Chevy Chase, which haven't told you about. Which is strange for some reason. Awesome.

Yeah. Awesome. I can't wait. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Kathy. Hey, Kathy. Esme. As me.

Yep. Yep. Or Esme. I don't know. There's five or six different E's there at the end. I'm going to go with as me. Okay. Debbie Garcia. Hey, Debbie. Elizabeth Hodge. What's going on, Elizabeth? Mary. Hey, Mary. Evelyn. What's going on, Evelyn? Shannon jumped out to our highest level. Oh, good old Shannon. Page Bullock. What's going on, Bullock? Kimberly Kaylee. Hey, Kimberly. John S. What's going on, John? Phyllis McElroy. Mike McComb. Hey, Mike. Marina Sepola. Ah, Sepola.

Rebecca Bailey. Hey, Rebecca. Rachel Thompson. What's going on, Rachel? And last one, at least, Carrie, Mary. Mary? You know Mary. That's my name.

That's right. And if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Aaron Barzac. Oh, look at that. Thank you, Aaron. Yeah, been around a long time. And we appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Obrinka. Milosevic.

Oh, thanks, Obrinka. So I hope I'm saying that correctly. But thanks to everyone who chooses to help out the show. I mentioned it, right? We'll be taking next week off. So we definitely want to wish everyone a very happy holiday season. We do. We also have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking

about David Box and the disappearance of David Box. You know, this is a guy who worked at a production center in Ohio. And then in 1984 one day, just kind of disappeared. Yeah. In the middle of his shift. And then some things were found at the plant that, you know, kind of cast doubt on certain people or have led to some theories. Several theories. That maybe he knew some company secrets that got him targeted.

and we'll go from there. And we will go from there. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about Bart Whitaker. On December 10, 2003, Bart Whitaker went out with his family for a dinner upon returning home. They were shot by a masked gunman. Bart and his father survived, but his mother and brother were killed. Suspicion soon turned to Bart. But the end of his. But the end of his father. But the end of his father. But the end of the. And he was killed. But the. And, investigation took months. When the police were finally ready to arrest him, he was nowhere to be found. Kent and Patricia Whitaker were a happy married couple who lived in Sugarland, Texas, which is close to Houston. Sugarland, one of my favorite country band. I was going to say, isn't it a country band?

Yep. Yeah. I absolutely love some of their songs and their lead singer. At the time of her death, Trisha was a 15.000. Trisha was a 51-year-old retired kindergarten teacher, and Kent worked as an accountant. Oh, back in the day when you could retire when you were like 50. Yeah, was that even possible? Today, I don't think so.

I have a lot of people in my family who were teachers, and they retired at 50 or in their very early 50s. Yeah. My wife, who's a teacher, has to go to at least 60 now. Yeah. It was 50 at some point. Wow. They just keep extending it. And who knows, in a couple of years, they could say, well, now you got to go to 65 or whatever.

That's because those funds just don't have the funds that I'm not able to hope. Exactly. So the couple had two sons, 23-year-old Thomas, who went by the nickname Bart and 19-year-old Kevin. Okay, I've known some people named Bart. Yeah. Same here. But it normally comes out of, you know, let's say Bartholomew or something like that. The Thomas thing kind of threw me a little bit because there actually are a lot of

nicknames for someone named Thomas. Yeah. None of them are Bart. No, Bart is not usually among them. As children, Bart and Kevin love spending time together. They were both close with their parents. Bart and Kent were passionate about. distance cycling.

Something I know you share as well. Oh yeah. I used to ride with a good old what's his name at the tour de France. You notice how I'm not offering up the name that I believe you're thinking of. Yeah. And it's on purpose because I'm just

going to leave you dangling. Hang in there. Until you come up with the name. Or a name. You can make a name up at this point. I really could. I assume that you're looking for Armstrong. Oh, yeah. Stretch.

Stretch. Stretch Armstrong. Yeah. I myself have never been into distance cycling or really anything with the word distance in it. No, you have not. No, you have not. Distance running. Distance walking.

Distance swimming. None of it. No, it doesn't add up for you. And really take the distance out. And I'm not into much of that either. You know, you could leave distance in. If distance sitting. Is that possible?

I don't think so because you're not traveling anywhere. Oh, yeah. Now, duration may be length of time. You would be king. I would be king of that if that was a sport. Yeah. We had to have like Gienus come over. Did you say Ginnis?

Or Guinness. Geinness. Yeah. Kent described Kevin as the more sensitive of the two. He told CBS 48 hours. Kevin was a man at a young age. He would not back down from injustice. But he would be so quick to forget.

Okay, a couple of good traits there, right? A guy who, when he saw something that he knew wasn't right, he was going to get involved. He was going to try to make it right. Also, being very quick to forgive is an interesting trait that I don't possess. It's not an easy trait to have. No, I wish I had a little bit more of it because I do tend to hold a grudge. I do tend to hold on to things way too long. We all know.

Yeah. You know. Oh, I know. For sure. Bart had a nurturing and happy childhood, according to his father. Kent said about Bard as quoted by ABC. He was a very precious young kid, very intelligent. He spoke early and he had a great deal of self-confidence.

I can relate. You can relate. The one thing I will say is that self-confidence can really. help you out in a lot of situations. Now, it can lead to some issues if taken too far. You know, self-confidence becomes cocky, becomes arrogant. And then you can get yourself in trouble. But self-confidence on its own can be a great thing. Kent told ABC, Trisha and I both loved our kids unconditionally. We guided them as morally as we could. We were active in both of their lives. and we were supportive.

So when I look back, I don't see anything glaring that would have caused something to go wrong. And this is interesting. You know, maybe a little unlike the childhoods of a lot of people that we profile on true crime all the time

who by and large, many of them had, you know, really jacked up childhoods. They were neglected. They were beaten. They were abused. They weren't love.

Right. That does not seem to be the case here. No, seems for all accounts, he had a good life. The family went on trips to Austin or Houston or to the lakehouse they shared with Trisha's parents. They also went on ski trips and a family vacation to Cancun. One family friend described the family as a pillar in their community. It seemed like they were all happy and loved each other. So, I mean, you just take this and it's like, you know, family out of leave it to beaver or you know one of those shows from the 50s or go to the 70s and be like the Brady bunch okay okay I got you there now we know that what parents think are happening

with their children is not always correct they they don't always know everything that's true and then the other thing is you know you're talking about family friends and neighbors and people looking from the outside, but they may not have the whole story either. That's very typical. By 2003, Kevin was a sophomore at Texas A&M. He wanted to join the university's core of cadets. Bard attended Sam Houston State University. He transferred from Baylor in late 2001.

So a couple of good schools, a couple of good sports schools, right? Texas A&M, Baylor. On December 10th, 2003, Bart announced to his parents that he finished his final exams and would be able to graduate. Okay, that's a big deal. You know, there is a lot of pressure on some of these final exams. And with two girls in college right now, I hear about it quite a lot. Oh, yeah.

My two girls just finished up a semester. They both had final exams. And they were worried about them because they did count for. a lot of their grades. But I think what they did okay. I mean, I yeah, they did good. I gave them the earpieces. So you could talk them through it. We got through it, you know, and it's like a Billy Madison situation. Exactly. But this would be good news, right, for not only Bart, but for his family as well. The family decided to go out to dinner in Houston to celebrate. Everyone had a great time that evening. They took pictures to document their celebration. And Kent and Trisha gave Bart a four thousand

dollar Rolex watch as a graduation gift. That's a pretty nice gift. It is. It's also a heck of a deal today. You could not sniff a Rolex, a real Rolex for $4,000. And I don't care if it was used, beat up. You still couldn't buy one for $4,000. They have, they have gone up significantly.

When they got home, Bart got out of the car and ran. ran down the driveway saying he needed to get his cell phone out of his car. The rest of the family approached the front door. Kent described what happened next to ABC, saying Kevin opened the door, stepped in, was shot. Trisha stepped up to the door, was shot. I looked in the door and was shot. In his 2009 book, Kent wrote that he heard a loud noise, but he didn't immediately think it was a gunshot. Trisha shouted, oh no, and then they heard another shot.

And this is something you and I have talked about quite a bit. You hear a loud noise. Now, to some who maybe shoot a lot, that noise may be unmistakable. Yeah. But to others, it may not be. And it depends on what type of gun is used and how loud it's going to be and all that. Kent stepped forward and he saw a masked man. standing next to the stairs. He thought it was one of Kevin's friends playing a joke on them,

but then he was hitting the shoulder hard enough to knock him down. He landed just outside the house. He didn't fully understand what was happening. He tried to get up, but he couldn't because of the pain in his arm. And to me, this is, you know, a nightmarish situation. One thing I think a lot about is, okay, how do I protect my family? You know, I take great precautions to do that. I've talked about it numerous times. Yeah. So for me, this is worst possible scenario.

Kent wrote, I called to each of them, but got no response, except for a few quiet, wet coughs from my wife, Trisha. Although I couldn't see her from where I had fallen, I knew that it was her because when I had first tried to get up, I saw her blonde hair splayed out on the threshold of our home's front door. Though I had never heard that kind of cough before, I instinctively knew.

It was the sound of a person trying to clear lungs filling with blood. The silence coming from the dark house was horrible. My God, I thought, he shot us all. After he was shot, he prayed that even if it was his time to die, his family would be safe. Okay, I'm going back to. to my nightmarish situation. You know, as a husband, as a father, you want to take care of your family.

Of course. And the sense I'm getting here is just a complete sense of helplessness. You know, what can you do? You've been shot. You know other members of your family have been shot. Sounds like maybe your wife's dying. Yeah, it does sound like that. I mean, this is not a diehard movie where the hero is always going.

to triumph, right? Real life isn't like that. The Whitaker's next door neighbor Brandon Stanley heard the gunshots and called 911. Brandon's father, Cliff, ran to the house. Cliff Stanley told CBS that he went up to Kent who said, I'm bleeding very badly. He checked on Trisha neck. She told him he shot us. She didn't say who he was. Bart had also called 911. He reported that he was shot in the shoulder and chased the unknown shooter away. Kevin Whitaker died moments after he was shot, and Trisha died on the way to the hospital. Kent was taken to the ICU, and Bart sustained non-life-threatening injuries. So we talked about, you know, what was a bad situation.

Now two of the family members have died. Yeah. Another family member in the ICU. Yeah. And then you have Bart who was injured, but, you know, not. to the point where his life was in danger. The police were worried that an armed gunman was on the loose. So they put out an alert to warn local residents.

They initially thought it was a robbery gone wrong. But their opinion changed when they fully investigated the house. And I can see, you know, why they would maybe initially think that. Okay, the family comes home. They surprise a burglar. Right. And the burglar. The burglar is trapped. They feel trapped and they start shooting. But the family's electronics,

TVs and other valuables were undisturbed. Drawers had been pulled out in the primary bedroom, but they were pulled out evenly, not haphazardly as if someone was in a rush and they were rifling through them. Has to be a problem for the investigators. Well, when you say problem, I think it is from the standpoint that it's not, fitting what they thought the initial scenario was. You know, if you think about it, if you're in someone's home, which you shouldn't be, but if you are and you're ransacking the place, I mean, are you pulling drawers out completely turning them upside down? Or are you sliding them out, you know, looking through them and leaving them at a pretty equal distance to the others?

is it possible? Yeah, does it seem likely? No. No. And I think for investigators, you know, they go back to years and years of crime scenes that they've looked at, robberies they've probably seen. And they start to think something doesn't look right here. The murder weapon was found in the kitchen. It was one of the family's guns. The gun safe and one of the upstairs bedrooms had been pried open. According to CBS, the gun safe was put in an eye. isolated portion of the house, which indicated the killer knew where it was beforehand. And I found that to be, you know, pretty interesting as far as statements go. Okay, can you pry into certain gun safes? Yeah. Not all gun safes are made the same. No. Some are super sturdy and some you can put together yourself. But it didn't sound like, you know, this gun safe was kind of out in the open and a place where someone, someone, would just happen upon it, the police were kind of surmising that whoever got to it, they knew exactly where it was.

Which would have anybody looking at this case say, hmm, what's going on here? It doesn't look like it's really a robbery. Somebody knew where the gun was. I think it takes the investigation in a different direction. Yeah, I think at the very least, you start to focus on family members, friends of the family, people who, you know, had been to the house, knew the layout, knew what was in there. And you move away from more of a complete stranger who had never been in the house type of theory. Detectives decided to look into Bart's school records.

The day after the shooting, the Sugar Land PD learned that Bart was not a graduating senior. He was a freshman on academic probation. So basically Gibbs, he had been. pretending to go to school full time for the past three years. Wow. I remember when I pretended to go to summer school all summer and then my mom found out and that was not good. She spank your little bottom? To say it was not good. It was not good. Yeah. Now I can tell you right now, if I found out that I had been paying for three years of college that one of my daughters was not attending, that you know what is going to hit the fan. And it sounded to me as though the family was paying for his education.

They had some money. They gave him a $4,000 Rolex. So I'm just kind of making that assumption. But if they were paying for it, where was the money going? You know, were they giving it to Bart, who was then saying, okay, yeah, I paid my tuition. Right. But he really didn't because he wasn't going. You know, I had friends that would take the money, sign up for the classes, and then there was a period of time where I guess you can withdraw. And then they would take the money back. Yeah. And they would use it for other things. Sure. And then they just, their parents didn't know. Well, I think their parents probably eventually found out, but. Well, you just said I were, I guess you could withdraw. Yeah. I would have thought you would have known all that given, you know, how much higher education

you have under your belt, but it seemed like you were unsure how some of that worked. Maybe. A Sam Houston State University spokesman later said that Bart took classes in the criminal justice program through spring 2003, but he was still a freshman based on his credit. So, you know, that tells me either you're failing a lot of classes. You're not scheduling, you know, much of a workload. you're not taking many classes or you're just not taking any for certain periods of time. I'm taking a class a quarter.

It's going to take you a long time. It is going to take a long time. According to Oxygen, the police thought it was coincidental that the shooting occurred after the Whitakers got home from celebrating Bart's fake graduation. Detective Marshall Slot, the lead investigator, asked Bart why he lied. Bart said that he just didn't want to disappoint. his family, but he needed a break from school. Okay, I get that. You know, college is not for everyone. And certain people adapt to it better than others. Sure. Not everybody is meant to go to college or

wants to go to college, but to string your family along for, you know, three or four years to the point where you, you know, you're telling them, hey, I've graduated. Right. But is it really that rough that he needs a break from it if he's still a freshman after three years, you know? Well, maybe he needed a three year break. I don't know how long of a break this guy needed. Bart was released from the hospital three days later. He returned to the house to make another statement about what happened. He said it was dark and he didn't see the shooter as he chased him out the back door.

You know, the other thing that kind of jumped out of me was that, you know, he's kind of the hero here in his part of the story. Oh, yeah. We have a masked gunman who's shooting everyone, but yet Bard is chasing after him. I'm assuming unarmed. Yeah. Prosecutor Fred Felchman recalled as quoted by oxygen, he was very vague about things you'd think he'd remember. And I know you've brought this up at least a few times where what would you remember, what would you not remember?

my thought is, you know, in this intense situation, does some of it get seared in your brain? Or is there just so much going on that you can't retain everything? It probably depends on the individual. It does. I do think, you know, the authorities are looking at it as it's not been that much time. It was a traumatic experience. How come you don't remember this, this or this? It goes with the other problem that we've talked about, right?

once you start lying about something, it's hard to remember what the truth was versus what lie you told originally and what lie you tell now. And I also think, you know, some of the lies are pretty general. But then when police want to drill down into specific and you can't give them either because you're afraid you're going to say something wrong or just, you know, it didn't really happen.

And so you're not able to make something up on the spot. That can be a problem. The police weren't sure who would have wanted to kill the Whitakers. Their acquaintances and relatives maintained that their home life was practically perfect. And they didn't know of any major problems in the family. I think you can say that about a lot of families. I'm not saying that they had enemies, but. Or problems.

Or problems. But you really never know. No. There's no way if you're on the outside looking in. However, the police discovered a 2001 Waco police report from a woman who claimed that Bart talked about killing his parents. Officers visited Kent and Trisha, but they weren't concerned with what they thought were empty threat. Now, we're going to find out this is a little bit of foreshadowing here. Yeah, not too empty threat, is it?

No, but, you know, if you're mom and dad, is that going to be easy to believe that one of the ones, of your children once you dead. No. I think for most people, it's, it's going to be very difficult to think that's true. I think you'd be like, that doesn't make any sense. Why would my child want me dead? Five days after the murders, Bart's former roommate Adam Hitt went to the Sugar Land Police Station to make a statement.

He explained that he briefly lived with Bart in that in 2001, Bart talked about having his family killed to inherit their assets, which included their home and $1 million in life insurance. Bart offered him a portion of the money if he agreed to shoot them. We've got more stuff coming out of the woodwork. Yeah. And, you know, if this is true, obviously, it's, it's pretty damning. Because you can talk about, you know, why would someone who seemingly has a good home life, a good set of parents want to kill them?

Right. But then when you start to figure out he's been lying to them for three years and, you know, maybe he's desperate for money and there's a lot of it there. Yeah, it seems to be. A home, a million dollars in life insurance. That's a lot of money to a kid who's stuck in his freshman year after four years of college. Yeah, he just needs to get rid of his mom and dad and siblings. HIP spoke to detective Marshall Slot for three hours and drew a diagram of Bart's plan. Slod described it as a blueprint for what happened on December 10th. So, you know, it's kind of interesting in that obviously he must have been pretty comfortable with this guy, Adam Hib. Yeah. To even broach the subject of paying him to kill his parents. But then it must have gone in a little ways, at least for him to share the details. And And then when police look at what happened later, the details kind of are the same.

I always wonder how these killers get so relaxed with certain individuals and do that, right? Share their plan. And yeah, because I think, what if it doesn't go the way you want it to go? And what if this person thinks, I can't believe you're asking me to kill people. Yeah. You know, I'm going to the police. How do you know they're not? Well, exactly.

I think that's to your point. How do you broach that subject? How do you feel comfortable? The police informed Kent that Bart was a suspect. Kent told CBS, I considered it, but didn't consider it seriously. He promised me that there was nothing to it, that he did not have anything to do with it, that he loved Trisha and Kevin and me. It was inconceivable.

And I would think, again, to most parents it would be. Even up to this point, that is, you know, Kent's still saying, I just didn't want to believe it. Kent and Bart moved back into the house after the funerals. Ken spoke with ABC about how he coped with the loss. He said that while he was in the hospital, he wanted to get revenge. But then he had a realization. Deep down inside, his time went by, he said, I became more and more convinced that there was a chance that Bart was responsible for. the shootings. But there was something else that happened the night of the shootings that is the

foundation for my actions. And that was my decision to trust God when it didn't make sense. Because when I chose to do that, I realized he was leading me down a path to ask me if I would forgive the shooter. Yeah, for me, that's always tough to hear the forgiveness and forget. Sometimes you're never forget, but can you forgive? And some people can. Yeah. And I'm always a little bit amazed by it because I just don't know if I'm that type of person, if I'm strong enough to be able to do that. But you can definitely see here how, you know, Kent went from, well, there's no way that he could be involved to thinking, well, maybe Bart was responsible. Yeah.

But if he was, can I forgive him? Adam HIP's statement wasn't enough to charge Bart with murder. HIP allowed the police to record his phone calls, but Bart didn't admit to being involved in the shooting. The name Chris Brashear, a former roommate of Bart's, was brought up during their conversation. Chris worked at a country club with Bart months before the murders. When questioned, Brashear said he was at Hooters on December 10th with his roommate, Stephen Champagne, and Steve's girlfriend. Steve, who was a former Marine, had also worked at the country club with BART. Now, the first thing I thought of is that, you know, when you need an

alibi, what better alibi is there than Hooters? Just seems natural. Hooters? What's that? What is what is Hooters? Yeah. They don't have any around here anymore, but I know when they did that you were there quite a bit. Is that a place where you like get like chicken wings or something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's all they're known for. Chicken wings. The police asked Bruchier. and champagne for scent samples and had dogs compare the samples to crime scene evidence. The dogs indicated that Chris Brashear's scent was on the drawers that were moved inside the primary bedroom. His scent was also found on the murder weapon.

Man, I love dogs. Oh, man, they're awesome. So much. I love dogs that really don't do anything special, like my dog. But some of these dogs that we talk about who have been. especially trained. They can just do such amazing things. During questioning,

Brescher denied any involvement. But when he was told, investigators found evidence linking him to the murders, a look of horror washed over him, according to Detective Marshall Slot. However, Bershear didn't confess. So it seems to me, so far, they've got their kind of crosshair set

on a number of people, but nobody's breaking. Right. I feel like maybe the investigators feel like they're close. But how do we get over the hump, maybe? About seven months after the murders, Bart told his dad he was going out to a club and would be home the next day. He never returned.

Bart Chevy Tahoe was found abandoned at an apartment complex in Houston. The police believed he stole cash from the house to help him flee. Crime Stoppers issued a $10,000 reward for information. And I don't know, give him. what else you could think at this point if you're Kent. Yeah. You know, you had some suspicions.

Did he feel safe when he was staying there with Bart? For those seven months? Yeah. Because if you had a suspicion that your child tried to knock everyone off for insurance monies, I don't know that I'm going to be sleeping with both eyes closed. I don't know if I'd be sleeping at all. But then I think once he takes off, okay, what does that mean? Are you worried because your son is missing and you're not sure why? Or are you thinking that it has something to do with the murders and his

involvement? It took months before there was major progress in the investigation, but the police continued pushing Bart's friends for answers. Steve Champaign went to the police in August 2005. At first, he denied any involvement or knowledge of the shooting, but he admitted that Bart approached him and Chris Brashear in September 2003. At first, he talked to Champaign about killing Kevin, but then he wanted the whole family killed, according to the newspaper, The Monitor. Again, I just don't know how you have those type of conversations with one person, let alone more than one. you're either very, very sure that these people you're talking to are not going to rat you out or you're just not thinking about the consequences. What kind of people are you hanging out with if you feel like you can ask several of them.

Hey, thinking about killing the family. You want to be involved, want to help out. I'll give you a couple grand or whatever. I don't know. Maybe it's time to reconsider your network of friends. Well, maybe they too were, you know, four or five year university students still a freshman academically. Yeah.

Maybe they were all floundering. I don't know. So it turned out that Champagne was the getaway driver and Brashear was the shooter. He followed the family to the restaurant and waited in the parking lot while Chris entered the home and disabled the alarm using the code Bart gave him. He waited for the family to come. home and shot them. Champagne parked his car a couple of blocks away and fled the scene with Brescher after the shooting. According to ABC, Champagne said in his confession, Bershear said

Bart's brother had walked in first, and when Chris shot him, he said before he shot him, he thought he smiled. And then Chris shot his mom and then shot Bart's dad. And then he acted like he wrestled around with Bart and shot Bart. So it sounds like they had some type of script. Yeah, almost like a like a WWA, E match with the difference being that this was going to end in the deaths of a number of people. But not Bart, right?

Because obviously if you're dead, you can't collect the life insurance money. But you also can't really walk away unscathed. unscathed. Yeah. Because that's going to look strange as well. So what do you do? You say, well, shoot me in the fleshy part of my arm or something like that. Yeah, it's going to hurt like a you know what, but you're not going to die. You'll be fine and maybe police won't suspect you. Champagne explained their motive saying Bart said his family was worth a lot of money. He said he would give us some money. I mean millions of dollars. So, you know, you go back to how do these. conversation start.

Well, how do they progress and how do people ultimately make the decision that, yeah, it's something they want to join in on. Well, you dangle the thought of millions of dollars in front of what, 20, 21, 22 year old kids and maybe that's how it happens. I guess. I just think they gave up their morals really quick. Yeah, well, yeah, no doubt about that. But, you know, my thought is how was Bart going to give these two guys millions of dollars?

Well, that's the other thing, right? And one, how did they know that's exactly what his family had anyway? Yeah, right? We said that there would be a house and there were life insurance policies and the amount of a million dollars. But with that, you're not going to be able to give two people millions of dollars. Yeah. So was that a lie? to get them to do what he wanted them to do because there is a big difference.

You know, I hate to be cavalier about it, but for someone to do something for 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 versus millions of dollars. There are people who it's sad to say will cross that line. We'll cross that line. If the amount gets high enough. Yeah. Champagne admitted that he and Bresier threw a bag of evidence off a bruce. bridge and the nearby lake Conroe.

The bag had been in the lake for almost two years. Divers found the bag. Inside were two-way radios, water bottles, ammo. The tool used to pry open the gun safe and a cell phone. Well, that sounds like they're cooperating. Or at the very least, the champagne guy, right, is cooperating. And the information that he's giving them is turning out to be correct. They find the bag.

And inside the bag is, you know, some damning evidence. Chris Brashear's DNA was found on a water bottle. Chris Brashear was arrested on September 12th, 2005. Steve was arrested on September 14th. Both men were charged with capital murder. So Chris and Steve are arrested. And you know that Bart would have been arrested too if they could find him. Days later, a man named Rudy Rios called the police to report that over a year earlier,

Bart Whitaker paid him $3,000 to assume his identity and travel to Mexico. Okay. That's a way to throw the authorities off a little bit, potentially. Yeah, apparently, Bard had worked with Rudy at a restaurant in Houston. Bart told him about the pressure. Law enforcement was putting on him. Rudy told him he could help him and that he had family in Mexico. Rudy helped Bart travel to a small town called Ser Alvo. Rudy heard about the $10,000 reward for Bart's capture, and he wanted that money. He was recorded saying in a phone call per CBS, if there's a reward, you know, I don't care. I'll turn his ass in. Well, he did what he did for $3,000. He allowed this man to assume his identity.

he helped him get away to Mexico, even though he knew law enforcement was kind of looking into him. Is it a surprise that he would then turn around and turn him in for 10,000? And to me, it's not at all. It turned out that less than a week after Bart talked to Rudy, he stole $7,000 in cash from his house, paid Rudy, and fled to Mexico. He'd been living in Soralvo just 40 miles from the Texas border for a little over a year. Bart rented a small apartment in town and told everyone his name was Rudy Rios. He even started dating a girl named Cindy Lou Salinas, who he met at church. Cindy told 48 hours. I don't know. I found him very interesting. He just had something nobody had. Maybe she saw a little bit of the frog team. Maybe she did. And had never seen that in,

and someone else. I don't know. Cindy's father, Omero Salinas, gave Bart a job at his furniture store. He said Bart was a good worker and that he held him in high esteem. Bart became friends with Cindy's brother, Ebaldo. He told him that he was in the military and that the score on his shoulder happened when he was shot in Afghanistan. He claimed that most of his group were killed in a surprise attack. He shot at one person, but was then shot in the shoulder. which is how he got the scar. He said that he went AWOL after the shooting. So, you know, he's got a lot of lies.

Yeah, he's good at making up stories. Yeah. And you almost have to be, right, to go on the run, to stay on the run, to keep people from getting suspicious and kind of turning you in. You need to be a master manipulator, liar, all of that. As long as you can remember what you're telling them. Bart became close with the Salinas family. He told them he grew up as an only child and that his mother never loved him.

The Mexican authorities helped U.S. law enforcement find him. Bart was finally arrested in late September 2005 in charge with capital murder. Bart was extradited to the U.S. on September 24. Kent told CBS that the first time he saw Bart after his arrest, he said, dad, I'm just so sorry. I'm so sorry for all of it. It's all my fault. Of course it is. Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt it is. But, you know, if you're Kent, what are you doing with this information? I think it's a little late for sorry, but if Kent wanted to find forgiveness, maybe this is helping that out. I just think it would be extremely tough. I mean,

he's still your son, but he's also admitting to the fact that, you know, He played this major role in the death of your wife and your other son. On October 3rd, 2005, Bart Whitaker, Chris Brescher, and Steve Champaign were indicted for capital murder. Bart's trial started on March 3, 2007. He offered to plead guilty in exchange for two life sentences, but prosecutors rejected the deal because they felt he wasn't remorseful. They chose to pursue the death penalty.

Wow. Pretty strong statement. It is. I mean, when you think you can get a guaranteed two life sentences. Now, I don't know if those were life sentences without the possibility of parole and all that would be important information. I don't have it. But for them to say, you know what, you don't seem remorseful at all. And we are going after you.

Yeah. The prosecution argued that Bart was the. mastermind behind the shooting and that his motive was greed. And it's hard to think that those two things aren't true. You know, you have these statements from these other people who were involved essentially admitting their role, admitting Bart's role, and the money that was to come out of it. Now, Bart's defense conceded that he was guilty, but they asked the jury to spare his life. So it sounds to me like, you know, going into this, Bart and his defense team knew that he wasn't getting, you know, acquitted of these charges. Right.

He, he was going to be found guilty so much so that he offered to plead guilty, you know, right up front in exchange for two life sentences. And then, you know, when it came to his defense, they couldn't really, I guess, you know, mount a defense. around the fact that he wasn't guilty, so they concentrated all their efforts on, you know, trying to get the jury not to give him the death penalty. Steve Champagne testified against Bart. As mentioned, Bart approached Steve and Chris, about two months before the murders and offered them part of a $1 million insurance policy if they agreed to help kill his family. He was the getaway driver, and Brescher waited inside the house to kill the family. That night, Bershear got into the car and confirmed that he shot the entire family.

So now, you know, they're saying, okay, he's going to get a million dollars of which he's going to share some of that. Some of that with them. With us. But earlier on, he had talked about getting millions of dollars. So this does make a little bit more sense because, you know, like I said, said, where was he going to get millions of dollars? Right. Now, we do know that there were life insurance policies totaling a million. So if he's saying you're going to get part of that, then that would

make sense. Defense attorney Randy McDonald asked Champaign as quoted by CBS. And it really didn't bother you that three other human beings would be killed so you could have a better lifestyle. Steve responded by saying the way I looked at it was that they weren't human. Okay, that's scary. Yeah, it's really scary. I mean, it was scary that he even agreed to take part in this and then, you know, carried it out. But to say that he didn't look at these people as human.

Okay, what does that mean? You know, if somebody can do something like that, then what's stopping them from doing it again? Well, yeah, I think that's a great point. and it also might give some insight into how he was able to do what he did. He wasn't viewing these people as human being, maybe objects or, you know, whatever. I'm not sure exactly what he's talking about. Prosecutors presented evidence showing that Bart made at least three other attempts to recruit people to kill his parents.

He wanted his parents dead so badly that it sounds like he was willing to talk to just about anyone. At least three other people that he talked to. Right. You know, on top of the people that actually participated, in December 2000, Bart approached his roommates. Will Anthony and Justin Peters with his plan.

Will Anthony testified that he was supposed to shoot the family as they entered the home. Bart gave him black clothing and a ski mask to conceal his identity. Justin Peters and Will Anthony went to the home to commit the murders. Will Anthony opened a back window. and set off an alarm, so they fled and never went through with it. Is it just me? I mean, what's going on? That there's so many people willing to do this. It's greed, man. It's greed. It's, you know, it's money. But as we often talk about, how much money is it compared to ending multiple people's lives? And man, you really don't look great when you have to admit in

court that you were willing to do it. Yeah, if it wasn't for that damn alarm going off. They would, they might have shot them. Yeah. About two months after this, Bart approached Adam Hipp. HIP testified that he agreed to kill the family, saying per CBS, I'm not proud of it, but for the simple fact, I was kind of interested to see how far he would take it. Okay. Number one, he's not proud of it, nor should he be ever ever proud of it but then you know he kind of has to add on this little caveat which is you know i i just really was interested to see how far he would take it almost sounding as though at a certain point he was going to pull back yeah and not let it go all the way who knows well you still look like a jackass sure you do for even agreeing and

and considering it. And trying to attempt it. CBS reported that all of these young men came from well-off families and were considered all American boys. They were not hardened criminals who had done something like this before. So it doesn't sound like they're hard up for funds. No. And I think that's the other thing.

Number one, these weren't, you know, guys with long rap sheets, right, who had been doing bad things for years and years and years and years. And I think number two, to your point, I'm not even sure they needed the money. So yeah, they might have wanted the money, but they weren't hard up for money. No. Is the way it's sad.

The prosecution told the jury that on April 5th, 2001, Kent Whitaker called the Waco police to report that his son Bart had been missing for a day. Bart was a student at Baylor at this time. The police looked into it and spoke to an acquaintance who overheard him say he was going to Houston to kill his father. Bart left with another man who was going to try to talk him out of it. The informant was Bart's friend Jennifer Jaffin. She asked Bart if he was serious about it.

He hugged her and told her everything would be okay. Jennifer called the police, which is what you should do when someone starts talking about a plan to kill their father or their family. Anyone. But I do keep going back, Gibbs to, it's like this guy was telling everyone. Yeah.

Whether he was trying to recruit them, or I think with Jennifer, he was just kind of telling her. Maybe he was bragging. I don't know. Now I'm kind of getting a sense why he probably didn't finish college. I don't think he was bright enough.

But he did a lot of things that, you know, don't scream. Stephen Hawking. Right. Let's put it that way. The Waco police called the Sugar Land Police who notified Kent and Tricia. Kent told CBS that he and Tricia thought there's no way.

Bart was found the next day in Austin. He said the informant misunderstood him. And he was actually talking about a TV movie about the Menendez brothers. Well, you got to come up with something. Oh, yeah. And I think he had a way to convince his mom and dad, you know, that, oh, I's, not anything I was trying to do. I would never do that.

Right. And is it that hard to convince parents? Because like we said, they don't want to believe that in the first place. No, they don't. So a little bit of reassurance probably, you know, convince them easily. The case was closed after the police spoke to the parents. Finally, Bart took the stand and said, I am 100% guilty for this. I put the plan in motion.

if I had not done so, it would not have happened. All right, this might be the first 100% correct statement that we've heard Bart make. Yeah, finally. But why is he making the statement? Is it because he's already admitted defeat, right, when it comes to being convicted and, you know, he's laying this out for the jury in the hopes that they'll be compassionate. He's trying to save his ass. Yeah, saved himself from the death penalty.

That's my thought. His defense asked him why he did it. As quoted by CBS, Bart testified, I've come up with a lot of the reason, how I got to where I was going. But they do not explain it. I always felt that whatever love they sent me was conditional on a standard that I just never felt I could reach.

All right, let's break this down for a minute. You know, he's not saying, you know, my parents abused me. My father was an abusive alcoholic and I couldn't take it anymore. Yeah. He's saying that I always felt that my parents' love was conditional and I just couldn't live up to their standards. And what kid hasn't felt that way at some point in their life, whether it was true or not. You don't always think that the rules your parents hand down are fair. you sometimes feel as though you can't do anything right, you can't live up to, you know, how they expect you to be in an act and behave. I think we've all gone through some of that.

Oh, sure we have. But how many of us have thought about a plan, let alone put a plan into motion and recruited other people to carry out that plan, which involved killing our parents, killing our whole family, really. I think that's where it just becomes so hard to understand, you know, how people can do this. Is it hard to believe that people have dark thoughts? No. Because I think a lot of people have dark thoughts from time to time. Yeah, occasionally.

About, you know, being mad at someone, wanting to hurt someone. But the difference is, do you cross that line from maybe some dark thoughts in your head? to acting them out in a very violent way. That's the difference. I have dark thoughts about you every week. Oh, I can fill it. When I'm editing. Yeah.

But you quickly forget. And I make the decision that, no, I can't act on these thoughts. Thank you. Because, you know, deep down, I love Gibby. He's my guy. And yes, he drives me up the wall. but I shouldn't hurt him. And he also has this crazy set of skills.

But that's true too. That's true too. Is that part of it? Maybe. Bart's defense attorney asked him if he would hurt anyone else. Bart answered no. The only people I've ever hated. And I know it was not for the right reasons.

But the only people I ever hated were my parents and my brother. Such a strong word. Yeah. He hated his parents and his brother. to the point where he decided murdering them or having them killed would be his best option. Bart was convicted of capital murder on March 5th, 2007. On March 8th, the jury voted for the death penalty. So, I mean, you can see, and it makes sense why early on he would have tried to plead guilty

in exchange for a couple of life sentences, but it didn't happen. and he got death. Jury's not going to hear it. No. On September 19, 2007, Chris Bershear pleaded guilty to murder and received a life sentence. Stephen Champaign was sentenced to 15 years. So Chris apparently was allowed to plead guilty and received a life sentence. The trigger guy.

He was the actual trigger man. But I think the way that most people look at is that Bart, as the mastermind, put everything in motion, so without Bart, none of it happens. It's true. After Bart's conviction, Kent Whitaker pushed to have his sentence changed to life in prison. Both Kent and Bart said he was a changed man, that he was remorseful and took responsibility for his actions. Well, we know that Kent wanted to forgive.

He did. So this is probably part of that action. In 2009, Kent published his book Murder by Family, the incredible true story of a son's treachery and a father's forgiveness. That year, he and Bart did interviews with ABC's 2020. Bart once again admitted responsibility, saying, I wanted them dead. It was my idea. He talked about how he went out to dinner with his family that night, knowing a killer was waiting inside their home. He said, I don't really know a better term for how I was feeling other than I was on autopilot. I wasn't even aware of myself.

I feel like maybe he was saying he was just kind of floating there, you know, just knowing about what was about to happen. Yeah, yeah. But unemotional about it. Yeah. Bart admitted that he ran inside and pretended to catch the shooter. He was shot in the arm. So he would look like he was the victim too.

It was to distance me from the guilt. But also I think on an internal level, it was me realizing that there was no way that I could come out of this physically unscathed. And we talked about that, right? What are the chances that, you know, three members of your family are shot? Two of them are killed and you're not even wounded. Probably not that great. So during the planning process, there was part of the plan where he would be shot. but in a location that would not be life threatening.

I still don't know how someone comes to the idea that they're going to chase down this cold-blooded killer who's armed. Right. With nothing. Bart told ABC about his escape to Mexico saying, I was desperate. And I grabbed that stick that was floating my way instead of drowning. Bart continued appealing his case over the following years. in 2013, a lawsuit was filed on behalf of Bart Whitaker and death row inmate Perry Williams,

challenging Texas's execution protocol and the drugs used for execution. And if you remember, you know, back during that time period, there was a lot going on in the country about, you know, the drugs used to carry out these execution. Bart's lawyers asked the court to delay execution while the case was ongoing, but the Attorney General's office sought to continue with the scheduled date. On February 15, 2018, the Texas appellate court rejected Bart's appeal, arguing that he shouldn't be executed because the jury was wrong in determining he would be a future danger to society. Can you blame a jury for thinking that this guy would be a danger in the future.

No, if you're willing to kill your own family, who aren't you willing to kill? What line are you not willing to cross? Now, I think what he was trying to say was that I'd never hurt anyone before. I had no designs on killing anyone other than these people that I hated who happened to be my family. He happened to talk to, what,

three, four, five people about killing? and ultimately recruit some of them. But I could see where a jury is not buying that that means, well, you wouldn't hurt anyone else. Right. Because to your point, if you can do that, then you can do just about anything. And who's to say that there's not going to be someone else down the line

that angers you to the point where you decide, you know what? I think I need to kill this person. Let me go find somebody to do that for me. Five days. later on February 20th, 2018, the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles voted unanimously in favor of commuting BART's sentence to life in prison. And it was said that this was the first time since 2009, that the Board of Pardons and Paroles voted to recommend a lesser sentence for a death row

inmate. I'm guessing they took his dad's statement and consideration. Yeah, they probably did. I also think, you know, this is Texas. Once you're sentenced to death and a jury makes that determination, it sounds to me like the Board of Pardons and Paroles, they don't overturn that very often. Kent Whitaker spoke at a press conference before the vote was announced and said, per the Texas Tribune, Victim's rights should mean something in the state, even when the victim is asking for mercy and not vengeance. Okay, I get what he's saying. You know, he's the victim. He is.

Should he have some say or at least should his opinion and his thoughts carry a lot of weight when it comes to, you know, what should happen to the perpetrator of the crime against him and his family? I think it should all be taken into consideration. Yeah, I think it's a part of the process. Yeah. And I think to your point, they must have taken what he had to say pretty seriously. Keith Hampton, Bart's lawyer, asked the board to listen to Kent Whitaker because he was the one who was affected the most by the crime. And that was absolutely true. Bart was scheduled to be executed at 6 p.m. on February 22nd, 2018, Texas Governor Greg Abbott commuted his sentence to life in prison less than an hour before he was supposed to die.

That's cutting it close. And I always wonder, you know, how those days go. You know, how tough is it to wake up that morning and know that in X number of hours you're going to die? Yeah. And then one hour before you're scheduled to die, you find out that you're not going to. I mean, you want to talk about a roller coaster. I wonder if they can hear the phone ringing. And it's like, yes.

And they're like, oh, wrong number. Okay. And then somebody else calls back. again. It's like, oh, no. How many people do you think are making phone calls to this like bat phone? I don't know. I don't think the number is publicized. I don't know how many crank calls are coming in. Governor Abbott said in his statement, in just over three years as governor, I have allowed 30 executions. I have not granted a commutation of a death sentence until now. The murders of Mr. Whitaker's mother and brother are reprehensible. The crime deserves severe punishment for the

criminals who killed them, the recommendation of the Texas Board of Pardons and Parolees, and my action on it ensures Mr. Whitaker will never be released from prison. 30 executions. It's a lot. It is a lot. He went on to say, the person who fired the gun that killed the victims did not receive the death penalty, but Mr. Whitaker, who did not fire the gun, did get the death penalty. That factor alone may not warrant commune.

for someone like Mr. Whitaker who recruited others to commit murder, additional factors make the decision more complex. Mr. Whitaker's father, who survived the attempt on his life, passionately opposes the execution of his son. His father insists that he would be victimized again if the state put to death his last remaining immediate family member. So I get all of that and it does sound as though everyone involved in the process really took Kent's wishes to heart while they were, you know, deciding what was best. As they should in a sense. Yeah.

And I really don't have a problem with it at all. If you're telling me that it is guaranteed that Bart Whitaker is going to spend the rest of his life in jail. He has no chance to get out. I'm okay with that. Yeah, me too. Kent Whitaker told 2020 about the decision, I love him. He's my son. I don't want to see him executed the hands of Texas in the name of justice when there's a better justice available.

According to Kent, prison guard said Bart was never a threat and was actually an asset. Death row inmates said that Bart encouraged them to better themselves. Okay, that may all be true. I don't really care about it. Right. Is it nice that someone, you know, does well in prison as a model inmate? Yeah. As opposed to shiving people and doing all kinds of bad things. Yeah, I guess it's better that way.

It doesn't change what they did. No, they're still there for a reason. Kent also told ABC that Bart learned Spanish in prison and was teaching inmates English. Bart had changed and worked on himself. he's tried to find out what went wrong in his mind. Kent noted there's a mental illness issue here that we still don't understand. Hopefully in prison, he'll find people that can help him. I don't know if they offer that in prison.

You would hope that they, that they do. In January 2019, Kent Whitaker contacted CBS and said that 11 months after Bart's sentence was commuted, he was still in solitary confinement. and had not been reclassified. Texas Department of Criminal Justice Director of Communications issued a statement, explaining that Bart was transferred on the night of his clemency and assigned a new unit at the appropriate custody level. So they have their own custody levels that they believe the mate should be in, right,

based on why they're there. So I'm guessing at this time, meaning at that time, they felt that solitary confinement was the best for the prison. Yeah, if that's what he was in. I mean, this person is not even confirming that that's where he was. He's just saying that, you know, he was assigned to the appropriate custody level. In 2019, NBC affiliate KPRC reported that Bart managed to publish a book online, despite the fact that he had no internet access or computer.

Well, that's kind of a feat, to be honest with you. Kind of tough to do what he did it is. Anyway, the book is titled, Who Fears Hell Runs Toward it on the Christian Metaphysical Foundations of the American Penitentiary and the missing image of resistance in foul cults, discipline, and punished. It's a very long title. It's way too long. Yeah, you're going to lose people on that title. Yeah, I think if I was this guy's editor, my first recommendation would be to pare down the title. It needs to be a little more catchy

and it needs to make a little more sense. You got to draw people in if you want them to read it. Andy Kahn, the director of victim services and advocacy at crime stoppers, found that the book was being sold on Amazon. He said that the book was murderabilia, which is tangible items like art,

autographs, letters, books, etc. produced by high-profile killers. Kahan said, that mail is the most common way. Inmates send out items for publication. So my thought is he must have written all of this down, mailed it out to someone who then published it on Amazon. Well, you know, I have several books out on Amazon.

No, I was not aware of that, actually. I'm surprised you don't publicize them more to get people out there buying them. I have to be careful because of the subject matter. Oh, okay. well, now people are just going to go look for them. I actually do have a couple of books out published on Amazon. The Texas Department of Criminal Justice responded in a statement that they were aware of the book and it was being investigated.

The Department of Criminal Justice noted that inmates have the right to write what they want because of the First Amendment. But there are restrictions on selling it. Previously, the U.S. had a son of Samoa. The law was enacted. in 1977 because of serial killer David Berkowitz. Prison officials feared he would sell his rights for books and movies. The law was in effect for 23 years until the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional

because it restricted speech. If you search the book title on Amazon, there is one search result. The author is Thomas Bartlett Whitaker, M.A., and you can order a used paperback copy for $38.84. Not something that I'll be ordering. No. But I am always amazed at, you know, some of the used things on Amazon and the prices associated with them. You know, I collect those funco pops, right?

Yeah. And my wife said, because she's now into the Walking Dead with me, she said, why don't I get you some of those funco pops? I said, you can, but they're like hundreds of dollars. Yeah. Because once they come out and they make so many and then that's it. it, well, all you can buy are used ones, really. And people know it and they jack the price. They jack the price up. Bart Whitaker is currently 43 years old and still incarcerated in Texas.

His accomplice, Chris Bershear, is also incarcerated in Texas. Based on information from the Department of Criminal Justice inmate search page, Bershear's parole eligibility date is listed as September 14, 2035. However, his projected release date says life sentence. So Gibbs is we wrap this one up. It's it's a tough one to take in. You know, Bart Whitaker hated his family so much that he wanted them all dead. Yeah. Now, he also had a motive, which was greed. Of course. And I'm struggling to figure out which one was a bigger factor. He hated his family. and wanted them dead, or he wanted them dead because he wanted all this money. Yeah, you're saying, you know, if he hated them, but they didn't have all this money,

would he have went through on it? Yes. Yeah. And I don't know the answer to that. And I don't know that he's ever provided, you know, additional context on it. Kent Whitaker was able to forgive his son and they continued their close relationship. I mean, Kent is, uh, sounds like an amazing person to be able to do. Yeah.

that. Like you said, I don't know if I could do it. You don't know if you could do it. But for whatever reason, he found a way to do that. Now, I'm normally talking about people that are not family members. Obviously, this is his son that we're talking about. He still did something absolutely horrible. But at the end of the day, it's still your son. So, I mean, I do understand this one a little bit more. I don't know how I would react in the same situation. What I do think, would be very hard for me is to forgive, let's say, a stranger who murdered my family or something like that. There would really be no reason for me to forgive them. I don't want to have a relationship

with them, obviously. Kent became an advocate for Bart. And he really is one of the main reasons. I think that Bart was not executed. I think when you take a look at this case and the reasons why it's captivated people. For the most part, you know, it's this contrast between Bart's cruelty and his father's love and forgiveness. You've touched on it a couple times. I mean, this Kent Whitaker, you know, he's kind of an amazing guy. Yeah.

To be able to do what he's doing. But that's it for our episode on Bart Whitaker. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? It's here. Hello, Mike and Mike. My name is Jose. I'm a listener from Brazil

and I have been listening for about eight years now and I just wanted to send you guys a voicemail and let you know that you have come so far in the T-CAT podcast and covering the cases and editing you guys just get better and better at it every time and I wanted to congratulate you for it and also wish you guys and your families happy holidays and i am actually tim gibby sorry mike

but both of you guys are awesome and now i'm going to attempt a translation um of your podcast motto so let's go um pick insuguros and maintain us a markation of your proper tempo thank you guys so much. Have a good one. Bye-bye. You know, she said that very well. You thought it was spot on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could tell right away she was from Brazil. Yeah. You nailed that one. Southern part of Brazil based on the accent. You have no idea what you're talking about. But Giseli, that was awesome. I don't think,

I think that's the first time we've ever had anyone try to put our saying into another language. Yeah, it's amazing. It's pretty cool. Especially at your Teen Ghibie at the evening. Well, she's Team Ghiby because she realizes that her English, her vocabulary is better than yours. Did I know Brazilian? Even though I'm sure her, you know, she's from Brazil. English is not her first language. It's still better than yours.

Probably. I'm not going to lie. There's no need to. Yeah. It's there. It's there. It's obvious. It's out in the open.

Yeah. Hey, Mike and Ghiby. My name's Lindsay. And I wanted to let you know that I have used your podcast as a reference in my high school psychology class. So I teach psych, and one of our units is dysfunctional behavior. And one of the things that really recruits people to this class is that we talk about serial killers. And their MO and their typology and stuff like that. And your podcast is a great way for me to get like little sound bites out there about different topics in psych.

And so it also reminds me of like, if any, like, dad did true crime. But I wanted to say that I'm teaching the newest generation of T-Cat listeners because I use your podcast all the time as a reference. So I love the podcast. Keep on going and keep your own time ticking. Love it. Love it. Got to be creative in education. You do.

And I'm actually going to speak at a high school sometime early next year. Yeah. A local high school. We have a great teacher there who comes down, sees us at CrimeCon, has been a big fan for years. And I'm going to her class to do what I don't know. I need to talk to her more. Probably you got to figure that out a little bit more.

Yeah. But I'm excited about it. I like talking about podcasting and true crime. And, you know, again, I've said it before. But I do worry that we have a lot of kids. I actually saw a study. And I forget the percentage. but it was astronomical of kids between a certain age who say that what they want to do is

YouTube or podcasting or I mean like that's their not goal but their their plan yeah and it doesn't include college and it does you know that scares me a little bit um I'll have some good talking points when I speak at the G8 in February oh okay that I can can use for this high school class? Yeah, I think you could probably take my stuff and break it down or actually build it up. Yeah. Break it down or build it up. All right, buddy, we had one thing in the mailbag.

That actually made me laugh. Our good friend Don Chick sent me some of those great Duke sausages. You a big five-pounder of Twizzlers. So you're going to be set for the holidays there. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, thank you. And then she also sent in a serial killer work. word search book.

Yeah, which is very cool. Might find that useful on your flight. Yeah, yeah. Look over and people in the aisle are watching me do a serial killer word search. Maybe they'll leave you alone. They probably will. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.