True Crime All The Time - Bernard Finch and Carole Tregoff

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Bernard Finch was a wealthy doctor who worked in the San Gabriel Valley in Southern California. In 1958, he began having an affair with his married receptionist Carole Tregoff. When Dr. Finch’s wife was found dead, the two became the prime suspects.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Bernard Finch and Carole Tregoff. Finch was the type of man used to getting his way. He also had a habit of divorcing wives when he fell in love with a younger woman. But Barbara Finch was in a position to divorce Bernard and take a great deal of his assets. This is something that Bernard couldn't have, and he made a plan to do something about it.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 423 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm hanging in there. It's actually been a little bit of a rough week for me.

Yeah. My wife's been sick and then she got me sick, which, you know. Which means I'll be sick next week. Which means you'll be sick next week. I knew I was going to get sick. I mean, how can you, you know, lay two feet away from someone every night for, you know, for seven, eight hours and eventually not get it. Yeah, I think you're probably laying a little closer than two feet.

No, there's a, there's a divider. Oh, okay. No, but there might have to be one installed. Yeah. Some type of plexiglass. Yeah. To keep us from breathing on each other. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts.

We had Jennifer Lemus jump out at our highest level. What's going on, Jennifer? Christy. Hey, Christy. Robert McLeod. Ah, Roberts. Jill Roscombe. Hey, Jill Roscom.

Spiffy jumped out of our highest level. Good old Spiffy coming through. Claire. Hey, Claire. Nikki Geddy's Thompson. Well, thank you, Getty. Brandon Kalow. What's going on, Kalow?

Christina Soren. Hey, Christina. Kylie Joe. I appreciate that, Kylie. And last but not least, Victoria Summer. Hey, Victoria. Yeah, so we appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault.

This week, we selected Taylor Aylesworth. Thanks, Taylor. Yeah, appreciate all the support. that we get gives we have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about Darren Seals he became a prominent activist in fergus in missouri after the shooting of michael brown but then he was murdered in september 2016 so you know in the episode we really dive into kind of the you know rumors speculation theories around why he was killed was it because of his activism.

So check it out. A lot of discussion. Yeah, absolutely. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am so ready. We're talking about Bernard Finch and Carol Tregaugh. Bernard Finch was a wealthy doctor who worked in the San Gabriel Valley in Southern California. In 1958, he began having an affair with his married receptionist, Carol Traigoff.

when Dr. Finch's wife was found that the two became the prime suspects and how could they not I mean just think about every murder movie you've ever seen where a wife is killed yeah or every case that we've ever done you know where that situation occurs who is going to be the first person looked at well that's true it's going to be the husband or the partner the partner the spouse yeah add on top of that, you know, the revelation, you know, when it comes out that the husband is having an affair. Okay, ding, ding, ding, you're going up the ladder. With his secretary. With his secretary. Kind of cliche. Is that the right word? Yeah.

The old having an affair with a secretary. Yeah, old movie trope, if you want to say that. Yeah, a little trope. I like that. You like that word. I do. Bernard Finch was born on January 7th, 1918, in Los Angeles, California. his family had lived in Southern California for generations.

His father was a retired optometrist who owned a local jewelry store. So, okay, maybe he was born into a little bit of money. Maybe. You'd be fun at that, fun at that? You would enjoy owning a, not a jewelry store, but a watch store. A watch store. I thought you were going to say I would make a great optometrist, which would be the strangest observation

that you've ever made. You're no good with ice. No, terrible. Yeah. In 1935, Bernard was accepted into Laverne College as a pre-med student. In 1943, he graduated from Loma Linda University with a medical degree. I didn't even know Laverne had a college. I mean, she did pretty good after her Milwaukee Brewhouse thing.

I don't think Shirley had her own college. No. And I think I've talked about it before. I had designs on going into medicine. You know, my mom was a nurse. She was kind of guiding me in that direction. It wasn't until I actually got to college and figured out how long it actually takes to be a doctor that I decided, no. I don't like school that much.

It's just too much of a commitment. Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody can fast track it. No, if I could doogie it like you did and get done in, you know, a couple of years and still be 15 years old, okay, maybe I roll with it. First, I thought you said duke it. I'm like, hey, hey. Doogie it. I'm using that as a verb. Bernard served in World War II as an army surgeon stationed in North Carolina.

After leaving the military, he returned to Southern California. He and his wife, Francis, had three children. And it was said that, you know, Dr. Finch was a prominent local figure. He participated in tennis tournaments, gave lectures about cancer at local churches, sponsored a girls softball team, and put his name on ads for Richard Nixon's congressional campaign. Pretty active, it sounds like. Yeah. So, you know, we're talking about the 1950s here.

And even before that, this is obviously before. Nixon, you know, became president. Yeah. He was from California, was a congressman in California. There was a scandal when Bernard divorced his first wife to marry 24-year-old Barbara Dordy. He met her in 1947 when he delivered her daughter, Patty. Barbara and her husband Lyle also lived next door to the Finches in Baldwin Park. Bernard hired Barbara to work in his medical office.

office and they began an affair. Okay, so we got a lot to unpack here. Well, I'm first just thinking about how they met. The first time is when he was delivering their baby. Yeah, so you're seeing someone at their most vulnerable. Yeah. I'll leave it at that. You know, it's something that I have seen twice, not something that I would really care to

ever see again. Right. Now, you know, the mirror. of childbirth is amazing. Beautiful, man. But what happens during it, is a lot to take. Yeah. And it's all your fault. But, you know, he's a doctor. He's 29 years old. He and his wife have three children. And he divorces her to marry his next door neighbor after he delivers her baby. I think I want to get to know you better. I really like how you deliver that baby. This is a strange way to meet.

It is. They didn't meet that way, right? They were neighbors, but still, it's a strange part of the thing. It's an icebreaker. It's a terrible icebreaker. The two married in 1951. And obviously, they each had to divorce their respective spouses. But in a strange turn of events, their former spouses, Lyle and Francis, married each other.

Whoa. I've never heard of that. It's like a love quad. Yeah. It's so strange. We're showing them, we're getting married, and we're doing it better than they did. I mean, this is something you might see on, you know, a soap opera and you're like, who wrote that? Right.

Right. But this is real life. It happened. That's bizarre. The Finch's second child, Raymond Finch, Jr. was born in 1953. The family moved into a luxurious home in West Covina, which LA magazine described as an affluent area in the 1950. It's just fun to say. West Covina.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, you know, when you're talking about L.A., I don't know exactly what West Covina is like today, but a lot of the areas that were affluent back then, maybe aren't today. And some that weren't back then now are. And we know how California real estate has gone over the years. It sky rockets, it plummets, but it's always high. Yeah, it's expensive to live there. Heck, it's expensive to rent there.

My son lives out there, you know. His rent's crazy. It's probably expensive to visit there for you. That is very true. Time magazine reported that the house, which had a four-car garage and a pool, was valued at $50,000. Okay. You think about $50,000, California, that doesn't sound like much.

And today, you couldn't even dip a toe in the water for $50,000. But in the 1950s, that's a good chunk of change. It is. Or was. But Bernard Finch was a very wealthy man. He was a partial owner of a local clinic. Gibbs, he was earning about $200,000 a year. That is a boatload of money.

Back then? Yeah, but today it's good money. Oh, if you made that money today, you're living extremely well. You are. So I can only imagine that in the 1950s, that put you in the upper crust. Yes. In addition to his home, he owned a speedboat and three cars. His estate was worth around $750,000.

You need three cars. one for you, one for her, and one for the weekend. Yeah. I mean, you know, this guy, he sounds a lot like you. Extremely wealthy. It's because I don't ever buy dinners. It's because you pay for nothing. This big estate, I know you have your own speedboat, which is strange because we're

landlocked. But I just have it just so I can look at it. There were rumors that Finch transferred hospitals often because he had a drinking problem. And he was the defendant in an abnormally high amount of malpractice suits, according to the LA Times. Well, there was a lot of drinking back then, too. Think of like madmen. Yeah, you mean drinking in situations that would not be okay today. Yeah, like during work. Yeah. Yeah. I've got to go in and deliver this baby. Can you pour me a, uh, a double please? It was a different time. Now, I don't know how many doctors drank, you know, while they were working, but I wouldn't put it past them.

I got you, doctor, doctor. But let's talk about malpractice suits, right? Malpractice insurance extremely high for surgeons and people like that. When you look at someone who's involved in a very high amount of those, like abnormally high, okay, was it because of the drinking? Maybe. Or was it because he just wasn't a very good doctor? I don't know.

Or a combination of both. One child died on his operating table and another child died after a procedure that he performed. He also had a reputation for ordering unnecessary surgeries. Maybe he needed to find a way to help pay for a lot of those luxury items he had. Well, that's what I was thinking. Maybe that's how he got to that $200,000 a year. Is it because he was doing... a bunch of procedures that weren't even necessary.

Bernard seemed to think that he was above the law. He was once able to talk his way out of being arrested for drunk driving. He also didn't seem to care about negative publicity. For example, neighbors caught having sex with a young woman in a vehicle. You know, sometimes when people make a lot of money, I'm talking a lot of money, they do feel untouchable. Yeah, above the law. Yeah.

Like their money can get them out of whatever they, get into or hey, I'm a prominent figure. I know a lot of people so I can get out of whatever jam. Yeah. You know, I find myself in. I also don't think that drunk driving in the 1950s was seen in anywhere near the same light as it is today. Oh, no way.

Yeah. I think I don't know if I've told this story, but I remember being a kid in like the late 70s, maybe even early 80s. taking rides with my friend's dad. You know, me and my friend were in the backseat, dad's driving, and there was always a tumbler. Yeah.

You know, there was, there was a, to go drink. Yeah. And it was being consumed while they were driving tots around. They always call those, they're travelers.

Yeah, traveler. Yeah. I always thought was funny with the one dad, it always had his six pack, you know, but he had one, you know,

one he just tore off, pulled the tab and was drinking it, was he driving you around, knowing that, I'm assuming he was going to drink all those before he got home. That's, oh, man, I don't know. Around 1957, 41-year-old Bernard began an affair with his receptionist Carol Traygoff, who was just 22 at the time. So, you know, we're seeing a pattern here, right? He's married. He meets someone else.

she's a little bit younger than him. Not obviously the age difference that we're seeing here, but maybe he's viewing her as a better, younger version of what he's looking for. Yeah. And so he divorces his first wife, marries her, and what do you think is going to happen when a person is like that? Most likely going to happen again.

Do you not think that they're going to to trade you in at some point. I mean, clearly you had a problem keeping his you know what in his pants. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And by you know what, you mean his handkerchief? Yeah, that thing. Oh, okay. Carol was married to a man named Jimmy Papa, whom she had known since she was 15. Jimmy joined the military while waiting for Carol to turn 18 so they could get married. After the wedding, they purchased the house in La Pente. both of them had to work to pay the bills. Jimmy worked different jobs and in his spare time enjoyed bodybuilding and posing for muscle magazines.

And there are some videos of him out on YouTube. He was a big guy. Yeah. You know, you think about the 50s. You think about the California scene, Venice Beach. I don't know when all that got started. Obviously, Arnold came along and kind of. really popularized it, but it started out in California way before then.

Yeah, back then they had all those big muscle guys doing all those chiptonastic moves, you know, like lifting each other. Did you say gymnastic or chipnastic? No, gym. Okay, because that sounded strange. But lifting each other's body weight over their heads on the beach and doing those weird poses. And you're calling that gymnastics? I don't know, calisthenics.

What do you want to call it? What do you want to call it? is really the question. A little too close for comfort for me. I don't want you to stand on my shoulders with just a bikini brief bottom on. Well, that's where I was going to go. You know, it, it's not like you're wearing

jogging shorts down to the knee. I mean, these are nut huggers, extraordinary, that these guys were always wearing. And was that necessary? And there's a level of confidence that comes with that. I get it when, when you're on stage, You're trying to show off every muscle. So they just wear the little skimpy thing.

But, you know, when you're at the gold's gym or you're at Venice Beach, do you really need that? Yeah. Can you wear something a little more? Or like that one time you and I went on vacation. We ended up going to the beach. I thought the speedo was just way too much. Hey, you know, I apologize for that so many times, you know. But I don't say sorry to me.

Say sorry to my kids, you know, who had to see that. Went in, you know, like Rome, went in, went in, whatever that beach was. That's what you do. That's what I thought you did, you know. I'm sorry, next time I will shave better. But Carol was described as a beautiful young woman. She did a few modeling gigs for a perfume line. And after graduating high school, she was hired as a receptionist at Bernard Finch's medical office.

And I'm sure her looks, Gibbs had nothing to do with her getting hired by Bernard Finch. No, I'm sure he went by skill set. Yes. This sounds like a guy who just totally looked past what someone looked like and hired solely based on, you know, their experience level. According to LA Magazine, Carol lived in a new neighborhood in La Puente, where residents had not yet put up high privacy fences. This allowed her neighbors to see Dr. Finch visiting her house. All right. That's usually not good.

And it was said that Jimmy didn't suspect anything for months. He told L.A. magazine in 2013. Dr. Finch had this beautiful Chrysler and he let me drive it while he was banging my wife. Hey, why don't you take my car for a drive? Take your time. Yeah. You know, at least 10 minutes. 10 minutes, 20 minutes.

Yeah. Whatever. But, you know, here again, I talked about this guy, Jimmy. He was a big dude. And so, you know, you are messing with someone's wife, which you shouldn't do anyway. Exactly. But maybe even a little more dangerous to mess with someone's wife who is a big-ass bodybuilder. That could squash you?

Like a bug. According to Jimmy, Barbara Finch called him in September, 1958. He'd only spoken to her once before. Barbara informed him that Bernard and Carol were having an affair. However, Time magazine reported in 1960 that it was Jimmy, who told Barbara about the affair after Carol left him that month. But either way, now they both know. And I would say that's correct.

Right. Now, regardless of how it happened, who told who they would both know because one of them knew to tell the other. And then obviously, once that is told, the other one knows. Jimmy told LA Magazine, I was shocked. I couldn't believe it. In those days, I thought I was really hot stuff. And Carol wouldn't go for an old man like that in his 40s.

Okay. Well, sometimes maybe it's not the looks. It might be the wallet. Yeah, I would say, you know, there's looks. Yeah. There's personality. There is personality. Some people are more interesting than others.

And then there's money. And there's always that money. and some people view a combination each one of those things differently, a combination of those things differently. But it's just funny, you know, Jimmy saying, hey, I thought I was the shit. You know, here I am. I'm a good looking guy. I got these big muscles. I've got this body. Never in a million years did I think that while I was out driving this guy's Chrysler, you know, there was hanky, pankey involved. He was wooing my wife.

Well, sounds like the wooing had already concluded. And they were on to the coitus. Oh, the coitus. Things turned violent. When Carol came home that evening, Jimmy admitted to Alley Magazine. She's lucky. She's still a lot. I didn't hit her, but I had her on the couch and was choking her.

I was really upset. She stayed there that night, and the next day I went to work. When I came home, everything was gone, she moved everything out. So I'm not surprised there, right? No, I'm not surprised either. What I am surprised about is that he's being so candid in this interview. He's saying, now I didn't hit her, but I did choke her on the couch. I almost killed her, but I pulled back.

He also said that he planned to kill Bernard Finch. He admitted that he and a friend waited outside his medical office, but Finch never came out. Well, Finch maybe saw him and his friend out there with a baseball bat walking around. Maybe he said, you know what? I think I'm going to go out the back today. Well, you know, this was 53 years later, I guess, when he was giving this interview. Well, that's true. I guess he felt like he could be, you know, completely honest.

By January, 1959, Carol had a divorce decree and planned to marry Bernard, who was still married. Barbara was aware the affair was ongoing and filed for divorce. on May 20. So, you know, we said she was aware, whether she told Jimmy or Jimmy told her, she obviously was aware of it. And it doesn't sound like, you know, Bernard Finch was going out of his way to hide it. Yeah. And I'm just wondering if Bernard's first wife was like, there you go, Barbara.

You get what you deserve because you did it to me. Now she's doing it to you. Maybe. That's quite possible. Just five weeks earlier, Barbara signed a will, leaving. the majority of her estate to her husband. Bernard moved out of the house and a judge granted Barbara control of almost all their assets. She had to approve every withdrawal.

Bernard wanted to make from their joint account. She was also going to be awarded the majority of the estate in the divorce settlement. That's pretty large. Well, we talked about, you know, how much money he was making, how much the estate was worth. now you think about a guy like Bernard Finch and I think you said it right this is a guy who for the lack of a better term thought he was the shit he's making a bunch of money you get to the point where a judge says your wife who you know you're going through these divorce proceedings with has to approve every withdrawal you make yeah I think for a guy like

that it's not going to go over well not at all and then on top of of that, the thought about losing the majority of your estate in a divorce, probably not going to sit well with a guy like that either. No, no. I'm guessing maybe his influence was not as good as he thought it was. Maybe this judge just didn't like him, or maybe this judge was like, hey, did you used to hang around my wife? Well, basically what it did is it put Bernard, you know, in a dire financial situation. He had just opened the West Covina Clinic and Hospital. With a group of physicians and purchased land to build and rent out offices, the divorce settlement would jeopardize the loans he was trying to obtain.

Pretty impactful. Yeah, in his life, right? This is really upsetting his apple card. Bernard also worried that Barbara would name Carol in her suit, so he persuaded Carol to move to Las Vegas. She got an apartment there and worked as a cocktail waitress at the Sands Hotel. Hey, I want to be with you, but you got to move to Vegas. Bernard was unable to convince Barbara to give up control of their finances. In June 1959, Barbara secured a restraining order against Bernard. The following month, she served him with contempt of court papers for violating the order. And again, why would Barbara give up control of the finances. She's the the jilted wife. She didn't do anything wrong. She had to be enjoying it too,

right? That type of control. Oh, yeah. You did me this way? Okay. I'm going to get back at you. I'm certainly not going to give in. Bernard split his time between a motel and West Covina and Carol's apartment in Vegas. Together, they decided to get rid of Barber. On the night of July 18th, 1959. Bernard and Carol drove Carol's car from Las Vegas to West Covina. They parked a block away from the Finch household at the South Hills Country Club. With them, they carried a case that contained a sedative syringes, a carving knife, and rope. All right. That scares me because when I was in the back of your crew cab truck the other day, I saw the exact same. I saw the exact same. kit.

Mm-hmm. Exactly. What it's for, I have no idea. Can't talk about it. But obviously, Gibbs, they're going there with bad intentions. Barbara wasn't home when they arrived. She spent the day at the Los Angeles Tennis Club and went out to dinner with friends. Bernard and Carol chose not to enter the house because the children were inside with their

governess 19-year-old Marie Ann Lidholm. Marie Ann came to California from Sweden. In the summer of 1958, she was excited to live in the U.S. for the next year, but she was distressed by the Finch's marital issues. A governess. Is that what Julie Andrews was in The Sound of Music, I think? So, yeah, just a fancy way of saying nanny, right? Yeah, nanny or what's the French word for it? Oh, uh, up here.

O'Pere. O'Pair. Did you say, oh, Pierre? I don't know. I was reaching. But you were close, though. I was near. Closer than normal.

Yeah. Marie Ann and the children were watching TV together. She put the kids to bed after their program ended and started putting rollers in her hair. And man, that was such a big thing back in the day. Rollers? Yeah. I remember, you know, my grandmothers would do the rollers up in their hair. And then they had like a.

A rap. Yeah. That went around the head to keep the rollers in place as they slept. Don't want them to move, you know. I'm going to mess up your do later. And I thought, that can't be comfortable at all. No wonder they were grumpy in the morning. They didn't get a good night's sleep?

But it wasn't about comfort. No. But it wasn't about comfort. You know, it was about a good looking do. It's about having that hair looking perfect. Barbara returned home and Marie Ann heard her screen. for help. Marie Ann ran outside to the garage. When she turned on the line, she saw Barbara on the floor, bleeding from a head wound. Bernard was also there. He had attacked Barbara, pistol whipping her

so hard, he fractured her skull. Bernard then attacked Marie Ann, hitting her head against the wall, hard enough to dent the plaster. He ordered both women to get into Barbara's vehicle, and he even fired a warning shot. at Marie Ann. She got into the back and Barbara got into the front. He hit her head pretty hard, pistol whipping, and then the bounce your head, put a dent and plaster. I mean, that's more dense than drywall. Oh, yeah, we're not talking about drywall that you could probably just put your hand through. Plaster's a little bit different, but this is a really scary situation. Marieanne felt certain she was going to die before Bernard

could start the car. Barbara escaped. Marie Ann also sees the opportunity to run into the house and call the police. She soon heard another gunshot. All right. So this is a horrible scene, right, that Bernard is carrying out. He gets these two women in the car, but it's obviously not a secure situation. They're able to jump right out and take off.

Barbara fled to her in-laws home next door. She almost made it into the house, but she was shot in the back near the stairs. The wound severed an artery, and that's never good. No. Bernard's father, Raymond Finch, told the AP, she fell just a few feet from the front door. Ten more feet, and she would have reached the safety of my house. My God, what a tragedy. My son is sick.

He has been off the beam for the last three or four months. He believed Bernard was overworked, adding, you just can't work 12, 13, 14 hours a day at surgery without cracking up. So an interesting situation in that, you know, they live right next door to Bernard's parents. Right. And that's where she tries to get to safety. 10 feet away. And she makes it about 10 feet away. But these comments coming from his dad, right?

my son is sick. He's not, he says he's been off the beam. I assume that means he's been off kilter. He's not been himself. Right. But it's almost like at the same time, he's trying to set up a little bit of a reason why.

No one can work that much without cracking up. I think he's trying to be somewhat nice about his son's behavior. Well, I took it as more of. he's trying to set up almost like a defense. My son's sick. Yes. The reason he did it is because he's overworked, you know.

He's not his self. He's not his self. The police arrived at 11.45 p.m. Bernard ran, leaving Carol hiding at the crime scene for several hours. But none of the investigators found her. Okay. I don't know what type of investigation you're doing. Around midnight, Bernard stole his neighbor's station wagon,

which had the keys inside and drove to La Puente, where he found another unlocked vehicle with the keys inside. He drove to Carol's apartment in Vegas and fell asleep. So just real quick, obviously, car theft was not a big issue back then. No, because everybody was leaving their doors unlocked and the keys inside. But let's talk about Bernard just leaving Carol there. I thought, okay, he's going to leave, he's going to come back and get her. no, he drives to Vegas and goes to sleep.

Every man for themselves or a woman. Kind of tells you how shallow he was. Well, I think it does show that, you know, to him, he was the only important person. And no one else really mattered. Yeah. You know, I think guys like that, they use people for what they can get out of them. And, you know, if the, you know what hits the fan, they're easily discarded. And they move on.

or something better comes along or what they think is better. Yeah. They're trade you out. Or give you up. Or give you up. Carol eventually came out of her hiding spot in the bushes and returned to her car at the country club. She briefly returned to her Vegas apartment before heading to work at the Sands

Hotel. So kind of amazing that she was able to kind of hide out at this crime scene, eventually leave, get to her car, and make it back to Vegas. And go into work. Yeah. When Bernard finally woke up, four officers were at his bedside, he was arrested and charged with murder. Now, I know you've woken up many times with a number of officers surrounding your bed. Some of those situations played out in your favor.

Some didn't. But I'm on my first name basis with him, so it's cool. Yeah. At first, Bernard said he went to Vegas on the night of the murder. and had been there the whole time. But Carol soon contradicted his story by saying she traveled with Bernard to West Covina on the night in question. He eventually admitted he was at the scene when Barbara was shot, but he denied killing her.

He did admit to throwing the gun away. The murder weapon was never found. Okay. So first of all, if you're going to tell a story, it might be good for the two people involved to get their story straight, although Carol's probably not real happy with him. She probably senses that she's kind of on her own anyway. Yeah, he left me. And then, you know, when he's caught in this lie, it's like, well, I was there.

But I didn't kill her. But I did throw the gun away. Okay, well, how did you get the gun? Why did you have the gun if you didn't do the shooting? Why did you feel like he needed to throw it away? He and Carol told the authorities. They visited Barbara to try to persuade her to move to Las Vegas for six weeks so they could qualify for divorce. Carol claimed Barbara pulled a gun on them during a fight with her husband and she fled.

She heard a gunshot in the distance. Oh, it's my favorite. The stories that defendants come up with can't tell the truth. No. Because the truth is going to land you in jail. But I'm smart. enough, right? I can craft a story that the police are going to buy hook line and sinker. And eventually, if it comes to it, a jury will believe it. And I'll get off scop free.

I'm just going to say instead of him pulling the gun out, she pulled it out. And maybe they concocted that together. Maybe Carol did on her own. I don't know. The preliminary hearing started on July 27th. Carol testified about the affair in the events of July 18. when she left the witness stand. The prosecutor ordered her arrest because of discrepancies between her testimony and her police statement. A key issue was the leather case found near the home, which prosecutors called a murder kit. Carol testified that she took the case from her car when Bernard asked her to get a flashlight.

She claimed some of the contents of the case were household goods. Bernard purchased for her and he always carried weapons when he had narcotics with him. Okay. So let's add that into the mix. We have to explain this murder kit. So let's say that Bernard's got some narcotics with him, which maybe he did. As a doctor. As a doctor.

However, the prosecutor argued per the AP. She read in the newspapers about the murder kit and decided she had to account for it In the previous questioning, the bag was never mentioned. It's quite apparent now when you take the entire picture of evidence and the relationship between the pair, that her testimony shows an active participation in aiding and abetting in this murder. These changes in testimony in themselves show a concert of action between Ms. Traigoff and Dr. Finch.

I am satisfied. They conspired together in that she aided him. in committing the crime. I believe their plan was to tie Mrs. Finch with rope, give her an injection of sedative, put her in her car, and push the car off the cliff in front of the Finch house.

And pretty rough to get up there and testify and immediately be arrested and I think charged with murder because of what you said on the stand. But she got caught kind of in a lie. Yeah. I mean, that's what the prosecution thought. The murder trial started on January 4th, 1960. Bernard hired prominent attorney Grant Cooper.

Carroll's father spent his life savings to hire famed Hollywood attorney Jerry Geisler. They both expected to be acquitted and planned to get married afterwards. Don't worry, baby. We'll get through this and I'm going to marry you and we're going to have a wonderful life together. Well, it sounds like they both had. top-notch attorneys, obviously Bernard had the money, right, to hire whoever he wanted. Carol's father spent his life savings. How sad is that? Well, it's extremely sad.

But, you know, what would you do for your kids? Oh, absolutely. Would you spend every last dime you had if you thought they were innocent to keep them out of jail? A lot of parents would. I'd represent them myself. And that would be a huge mistake. But it was said that, you know, this entire trial was a media circus.

And media circus in the 1950s. And we're not talking OJ, but maybe the equivalent of that in the 1950s, which obviously was far less. But it's still L.A., right? It's going to have a lot. Yes. And you have this guy who's wealthy. You've got cheating, scandal, a woman killed.

As reported by L.A. Magazine, Bernie Finch didn't look like a man facing the gas chamber. He smiled and chatted in court with appreciative writers, allowing his photograph to be taken with cops who'd asked him to pose with them. Yet most reporters were in love with Finch's co-star. To them, Carol Tregov was a dreamy-eyed romantic, whose only crime, as her lawyer would tell the jury, was that she was a girl in love. So these reporters were smitten. Yeah. With Carol. She's just innocent, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

But can you imagine cops asking to pose for pictures with a murder defendant? No, not today I wouldn't, but who knows what happened back then? I just told you what happened back then. You said, who knows? We know. We know. We know. And they know now, too.

Deputy D.A. Fred Wichella told the jury that Bernard didn't want to divorce Barbara because she stood to inherit most of the estate. He and Carol hired a man named John Patrick Cody to murder her. When he failed to act, they decided to do it themselves. A three-name killer. John Patrick Cody? Yeah. You know the man's a murder. or, but he didn't, according to the, the DA, right?

He didn't carry it out. But what I want to talk about here is the fact that Bernard would rather have Barbara dead than divorce her because for him, it would be much better financially. This wasn't the first case, I'm sure, where that happened. But how many current cases have we talked about that where the motive was pretty much exactly the same thing? Yeah. It's, I mean, it's about the money. And she signed that life insurance not too long before she was murdered as well. Well, it's all about guys wanting to have their cake and eat it too and just not really caring about anything other than what is best for them.

Carol's initiative in the murder plot and her insistence on visiting Barbara as soon as possible caused Wichello to characterize her as a latter-day Lady Macbeth, the real aggressor and instigator in this crime. Lady Macbeth, wow. Pulling in some Shakespeare there. Yeah, it's also interesting that she goes from not being charged with murder to being charged, but also now being called the instigator of the whole thing. Yeah.

I personally probably would use like a Milton or, or a Homer reference instead of a Shakespearean reference, but, you know, to each their own. Yeah. The fact that you got that out with a straight face before you started cracking up

is amazing. The deputy DA suggested that Bernard and Carol originally wanted to make Barbara's murder appear like a robbery gone wrong. He noted that Barbara's purse was still missing. Bernard admitted he took it

but couldn't remember why or where he put it. Jimmy Papa briefly testified about his marriage with Carol. Former governess Marie Ann Lidholm testified about the Finch's marital problems. She said that Barbara claimed Bernard tried to kill her in May 1959. Marie Ann testified per the AP. She said he tried to put her clothes on and put her in the car and pushed the car over the cliff and that the car would explode.

She was very upset. She cried. I never saw her cry before. And she had a bandage over her eyebrow. She showed me blood on the sheets in the master bedroom. She told me, my husband tried to kill me last night. She said Dr. Finch took her to the medical center to sew the cut up. I wonder how that plays out.

Honey, I know I tried to kill you last night. It didn't pan out, but you have a cut above your eye. Let's go to the medical center and I'll go ahead and take care of it. And then we'll just go on as normal. Yeah, yeah. Well, according to Marie Ann's testimony, Barbara said that if she contacted police, Dr. Finch said to her, he had somebody in Las Vegas. He could hire and kill her and he would pay him.

So that might explain why she didn't go to the police, although I'm sure she was terrified. I'm sure the fear was there. Marie Ann wrote a letter to her mother in May 1959, which was read in court. In the letter, she recounted Barbara's claim that Bernard had beaten her twice. Time magazine published the following excerpt. Mrs. Finch told me everything. He had hit her, tried to get her out in the car, which he threatened to drive over the ridge. He also told her that if she didn't take everything back about the divorce, he had a man in Las Vegas,

whom he would pay thousands of dollars to kill her. Marie-Anne also testified about being attacked by Bernard Finch saying, Then Dr. Finch came rushing up to me. He grabbed my head and pushed it against the wall several times as hard as he could. She described how she and Barbara escaped and about hearing a gunshot after she called the police. And I would think Gibbs the testimony by Marianne Lidholm would be, pretty compelling. I would think so too. First of all, she was attacked. So she has that firsthand knowledge that that she can speak to. And then she also has, I guess what you would call hearsay testimony,

you know, what she says that Barbara told her happened. But stuff that she wrote in a letter to her mom. And I wonder how much weight that carried. Like, she wasn't making it up on the stand. It was already written. It was written down and sent her a mom earlier. I don't even know if that testimony would make it in today. I think a defense attorney would say, you know, it's hearsay. And maybe the judge, you know, wouldn't allow it. The second star witness was John Patrick Cody, a 29-year-old with a criminal record.

He testified that the two defendants paid him $1,400 to kill Barbara. But he never intended to do it. he only planned to run off with their money. The defense claimed Cody was hired to follow Barbara and collect incriminating information about her for the divorce trial and seduce her, if possible. Look, if you can seduce her, do it. Let's get some pictures,

and then I can divorce her for being unfaithful. Yeah, infidelity. But Cody denied all of that and said he was only hired to kill her. He claimed that Bernard told him, as quoted by time, Before you kill her, tell her the bullet came from Bernie. Hey, this bullet is from Bernie.

That's like a bad line in a B grade movie. Yeah. But that doesn't mean I don't believe it's true. You know, to me, Bernard Finch was such a narcissist. At the very least, I'm sure there are probably some other diagnoses that you could throw in there, it wouldn't surprise me that he would want her to know. Hey, I'm not doing it myself, but you know it, this came from me. You can hear, I can hear him saying that. Yeah. Cody also testified that Bernard told him he would kill his wife if he had to, saying the jobs got to be done,

I'm going to do it. He claimed he met Finch on July 12th, 1959 at Carroll's Las Vegas apartment, and told a false story about a failed hit attempt. Bernard was angry and told him to go back and do it again. Cody said he needed money to buy another gun and secure transportation. So Finch gave him $102. Not $100, 102. Yeah. Well, maybe the gun was 52 and the transportation was 50.

I don't know. I just think it's kind of humorous to think about hiring a hitman who has no intention. of killing the person, they're just going to get that money and take off. Yeah. Well, what are you going to do? Call the police and say, hey,

I hired this guy to kill my wife and he ran off with my money. Well, there's been people who have done that and it has not turned out well for them. It kind of reminds me of Jamie Fox's character and horrible bosses. Yeah. He played a great character with the name that I don't want to say on the podcast, but in their opening statement. Bernard's defense argued that Barbara's frigidity after the birth of their son drove him to have an affair.

Okay. That's part of their defense. He wasn't getting any sex at home, so, you know, he started having an affair. I guess you have to explain it somehow. I guess. And it's not that that couldn't have been true. It still doesn't make it right. No.

Both defendants claim that Barbara pointed a gun at them. According to Bernard, the gun went off accidentally. While he struggled with Barbara, prosecutors noted that the evidence showed Barbara was shot in the back from about four feet away. That makes it a little bit hard to align with his story. But obviously, the two defendants had gotten together on this part, right? Barbara pointed the gun at us. There was a struggle.

The gun went off. She was shot. Bernard got on the stand and went. went through each item. And the murder kit, he said the items were part of a medical bag. He created for surgical or poisoning emergencies. Prosecutors argued that the bag did not contain rubber tubing, normally associated with field treatment for poisoning,

and it also contained 38 caliber bullets. Finch said the carving knife inside was a gift for Carol's apartment. And the rope was just a line for his new boat. So again, you know, we talk about these cases and the evidence against someone. Well, all of it has to try to be explained. But a lot of times the explanations are just ludicrous and humorous. Yeah, it's not lining up. Now, I got this kit, but it's for medical emergencies.

But then, you know, I had this carving knife for Carol. So I threw that in there. I also put some 38 caliber bullets in. there for whatever for whenever you never know when you're going to need that and i just had some rope from my boat so i threw that in there as well just more convenient place to store it sure yeah the prosecution argued that finch prepared this kit so he would be prepared when the opportunity arose to kill barber and that's what truly makes something a murder kit right you put it together so that you have it when the opportunity arises

to commit whatever murder it is that you're looking to commit. Bernard testified about his affair with Carol. He admitted to renting apartments under an assumed name and said he lied to his wife to spare her pride. However, he also said they had an armistice agreement, allowing them to date other people. They decided to postpone their divorce and present a unified front so he could get the loans he needed. He gave her a new Cadillac. to symbolize the bargain. How about that?

I've never heard an open marriage described as an armistice agreement. What was the 50s? But here's my thing, right? We talked about how, you know, the divorce and all of that, him losing the finances was really going to mess up all this business stuff that he had going on. why would Barbara, who is in complete control of the finances per the judge and is going to win the majority of it in the divorce come to this agreement? Yeah, I know you screwed me over. I know you're cheating on me, but you know what, I'll postpone the divorce so you can get these

loans. It just seems to me like he's lying. I can't see why she's. would agree to this. No, I can't see where there would be anything in it for her, right? This only benefits him. And why would she want to do that? He's done nothing but hurt her. And apparently he already tried to kill her once. Why is she giving in to him? Also, she doesn't need to be given a new Cadillac. She has complete control of all the money. She can go out and buy her own damn Cadillac. And get the color she wants. Exactly. Bernard claimed that he, he hired John Patrick Cody to follow Barbara and get something on her for the divorce. And again, let's not forget, you know, sleep with her if you can, seduce her.

That really helps me out. When he suspected Cody wasn't going to act, he and Carol decided to confront Barbara. He acknowledged that they had the, what he called emergency kit. Obviously, he can't call it a murder kid with them. when Barbara arrived and saw them waiting for her, and this is according to Bernard, she grabbed Bernard's gun, which she kept in her car.

So apparently, not only does she have all his money, she has his gun too. You never know when it could be handy, according to him. Carol ran off and hit while Finch wrestled for the gun. He testified that Barbara kneaded him in the groin, stomped on his toes, and bit his arm.

Well, that might be true. for her to get away from him. I'm sure he had the gun. Well, obviously, he did at one point, even according to his testimony, because he said he hit her with the gun when she cried out for help. He also admitted to assaulting Marie Ann

because he thought she might have a gun too. He explained that he ordered the women to get into the vehicle because he wanted to drive them to a hospital. See, he is a nice guy, isn't he? Yeah. Yeah. We were wrong all along. Barbara escaped while he was looking

for the keys taking the gun with her. I mean, all right. I know we're kind of goofing around on Bernard, but let's face it, very little of this makes sense, right? Now, I'm sure Barbara bit him, kicked him in the balls, stomped his toes,

did whatever she could because she was in fear for her life. Sure. The part that really got me was that he thought, he thought that this young international nanny governors had a gun as well. Why in the hell is she packing a gun? So he has to assault her because, well, she's probably got a gun too. He's just trying to make it fit his narrative. Well, there has to be a reason, right?

What's not in doubt or what's not up for debate is that Barbara was shot. Marie Ann was assaulted by Bernard, so everything has to fit the known facts. And then you have, you know, him ordering them in the vehicle because at this point, he's now turned into a good Samaritan and he's got to get them to the hospital as quickly as possible. Bernard said, he ran after Barbara, knocked the gun from her hand. he picked it up and it accidentally went off as he was trying to throw it away. How convenient for him to tell it that way.

Now, gun accidents happen all the time. It's why you should never be playing around with a loaded gun. But this accidental discharge that Bernard is claiming just seems way too convenient, given the known facts. he was asked what happened to the gun as reported by time. He claimed he didn't know and said, I went over to the edge of the hill to look for Carol. Out of the corner of my eye,

I saw Barbara running down the steps. Finch said he saw her fall and then said, I went over and knelt down by her and said, What happened, Barb? She said, shot in the chest. I was amazed. I mean, people's BS meter has to be just, going off as high as it'll go.

It's screaming. He said he was going to call an ambulance, but Barbara asked him to wait. And that makes a lot of sense too, because, you know, most people who are shot and feel as though they might be dying, they don't want the ambulance right away. Now wait a little bit. Maybe this will pass. Yeah. I mean, this is not indigestion.

This woman is shot in the chest. She's not going to say, you. you know, let's hold off on that ambulance for a while. Finch told the court, I came back and knelt down by her head. She moved her arm. I took her hand. And she sort of opened her mouth. And then she spoke.

And her voice was very, very soft. She said, I'm sorry. I should have listened. Don't leave me. Take care of the kids. She was dead. I said, Barb, Barb. She wouldn't answer me.

I have never heard a. bigger load of horse shit in my entire life. This is literally making me sick to my stomach to read some of this stuff. You sure made that up. Carol also got on the stand. She cried throughout her testimony and denied the prosecution's accusation that she conspired to kill Barbara. After six days of deliberation, the jury announced they were deadlocked on March 12,

1960. Two jurors voted to acquit Bernard and eight believed Carol was innocent. Wow. Wow. That's shocking. Jury selection for the retrial began on June 28th, 1960 and lasted several weeks after much of the same testimony. A second mistrial was declared on November 7th, 1960. The jury foreman said they believed one defendant was guilty, but they could not agree on the second. And I would have to assume that they believed Bernard was guilty, but they were not sure about Carol. Sure. The third murder trial opened on January 3rd, 1961. On March 7th of that year, Bernard Finch and Carol Traigoff were found guilty of first and second degree murder respectively and conspiracy to commit murder. So it took three different juries hearing what was reported to be pretty much the same stuff to come back

with guilty verdicts. But they eventually got there. On April 5th, 1961, the jury voted for life in prison with the possibility of parole after seven years. Yeah, put on the brakes there. Seven years. Seven years for that. And we mentioned the gas chamber. This was back when California was actually executing people. Carol lost her first bid for parole in 1968, but after eight years in prison, she was released on May 1, 1969. After two denials, Bernard was up for parole again in August 1971. An anonymous source told the LA Times, he had strong chances of being released. Finch told the board, he wanted to return to medicine and had a job offer in the East. In the 1970s, you could be a doctor with felony murder on your record.

And keep practicing. And keep practicing. He was granted parole that month and was released from prison in December. Bernard relocated to rural Missouri and obtained his state medical license in 1974. Wow. That's shocking. It is shocking. Maybe that could happen today, but I highly doubt.

at one point he was in trouble with state probation authorities for paying for his girlfriend's apartment. I guess back then you couldn't do that. Yeah, I wasn't exactly sure what the problem with that was. Nine years after his release, California granted his request for reinstatement of his medical license. He practiced in Palm Springs for several years. He died on May 15th, 1995 at the age of 77. And I am shocked about a number of things in this case. Number one, that they got out as quickly as they did. But number two, that he was able to practice medicine in multiple states, especially eventually back in the state of California, where he was a convicted murderer. Carol Tragov stayed in California and tried to have a normal life.

She worked in the records department of Covina's inner community hospital and got into a stable relationship with a woman. Carol was later promoted to head of her department. Carol used a different name that was not listed in sources. Over the years, she has declined to speak with authors and journalists who wrote about the case. Well, I'm sure she wants it to remain buried. Why would she want it to have it out there. Yeah. I mean, what good is going to come from her speaking of it?

And she's using a new name. I'm sure she doesn't want that to get out. In fact, we couldn't even really find it during the research. So I'm not even sure if she's died or, you know, she was alive as of the 2013 publication of the LA magazine article. Yeah. But because we don't know her new name we can't even look that up. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, the murder of Barbara Finch was a high profile case that made national headlines. But in the decade since, it's been mostly forgotten outside Southern California. I mean, this is not a huge, you know, well-known case. But in the 50s, it did receive a ton of attention. And I can see why. Yeah, there's a lot of facets of the case.

that would draw people in. Although it occurred many decades ago, they had all the elements that make a case infamous, even today, right? Money and affair. And, you know, you have the defendant's questionable versions of events. But keep going back to Bernard. I mean, obviously, there's no way to say this was a good guy.

First of all, he was a convicted murderer, so you have that. but even before that he treated women horrible he was a narcissist yes he was also a philanderer yes and to me it seems like he was just you know constantly looking for what's the next best thing and then you know i'm in love with this person oh but now i see this person yeah and so i'm giving up my marriage i don't know you know, what happened to his children or his relationship with his children. But to me, those people are just all about what's going to be good for me or what's going to make me feel good. What do I want? And to hell with, you know, everybody else. Maybe his second opportunity at life

when he got out of prison, he did better. Yeah, there wasn't much about it. But that's the other thing. that it is really shocking to me about this case. I get it, you know, a lot of the cases that we've covered where the murders occurred in the 50s or so, you know, some of the sentences weren't as long or people didn't spend as much time in jail. Life with the possibility of parole. Okay, we hear that all the time today. But life with the possibility of parole after seven years.

that was shocking to me. It was to me as well. And then the fact that, you know, he got out wasn't shocking because if you're up for parole in seven years, eventually you're going to get out. What was shocking to me is that he was able to practice medicine in another state and then also in California. Get his license back there to practice. Yeah.

I just would have never thought that was a possibility. And if it's a possibility today, I, I would be shocked. And it might be in certain states. It might be. I'm still going to be shocked. Again, even though it's an older case, the motives for why it happened aren't much different than many of the cases that we cover that are much more current.

Oh, for sure. You have the guy who doesn't want to be married, but he also doesn't want to get divorced because that means giving up a big chunk of his money. So he wants to move on with this much younger, very attractive woman with whom I assume he's in love, but he still wants all his money too. And to make sure that happens, he's willing to commit the ultimate sin. They can go back and see that same case even before this one. Oh.

And for sure after. I'm sure we're due one years from now. It's never going to stop. No. When you talk about love, money, you know, greed, sex, all of those revenge, all of those motives will stand the test of time. Sure. They have and will.

That's it for our case on Bernard Finch and Carol Traigoff. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out. Yeah, see them. Hello, Mike and Givie. This is Liddy from Dallas. I was just listening to your episode on Stephen Wrights, and it just really boggled my mind everything related to this sleepwalking defense.

I'm actually a neuroscientist. I work at a hospital, and I do listen and hear about a lot of seminars, about epilepsy and even sleep-related studies. And so it's really interesting to me how they actually found multiple experts to talk about this. And if I was in the jury, I think I would pay a lot of attention to those findings. But at the same time, it got me thinking about, you know, this person does have a past and previous instances in which he's been violent. So ultimately, I don't know that I would have waited that much on the data and the science, but rather my worry that it will be a repeated offender and that he already may have caused the death of a woman. then what about any other victims that he might have if he's outside?

And so I don't know what I would have voted for, but I definitely love this episode and how you guys discuss all of this evidence that was presented. I love you all. This is my absolute favorite podcast. And I am Team Givie because we're probably the same person, but I love both of you so much. So have a good one and keep your own time kicking. Bye.

Well, we do have that similarity of neuroscience. You also being a neuroscientist. Yes. Slash astrophysicist. Slash. Slash. Slash. All the,

slash. You know who's a lot of fun at a party? A neuroscientist. You can't even say the word scientist. How could you be a neuroscientist if you can't say the word scientist? It came out really fast. I couldn't stop it. But we love you.

We do. And, you know, the one thing that I'm pretty sure of is there are a lot of. is there are a lot of Gibbys. You know, we hear that time and time again. Gibby and I are so alike. And frankly, that scares me. I just saw that look over in your eyes. It was like it really was a sense of fright.

I'm just messing. I know so many people relate to you because you're the every man, every person. Mensa, 172. This is Lori from outside of Kansas City, Missouri. And I had to go back and start listening to T-Cat from the beginning because you guys won't produce 24-hour day content. But it's just as good the second time around.

And I have some advice for Gibby. If you can't say coincidence, you should say coimpy dink. Got a certain cachet to it. Keep your own time ticking. Bye. I mean, you could write a whole dictionary about, you know, here's what the word really is. Yeah. Here's what Gibby should say.

that is easier to pronounce and will come out perfectly. Coincidence. Coinky dink. Quinky dink. That's just kind of fun to say. I've heard people say that before. It might be harder for me to say quinnik-dink. Since you just messed it.

What a coincidence that you can't say coinky dink. Shocker. Oh, all right. I had fun with you this episode. But that's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby. Stay safe. Keep your own time ticking.