True Crime All The Time - Betty Neumar

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Betty Neumar was married five times and all of her husbands died. Some of the deaths were suspicious but police had a very hard time putting together the evidence to charge Betty with any of them. That changed in 2008 when Betty was charged with hiring a hitman to murder her fourth husband Harold Gentry in 1986. It took authorities 22 years to put it together, and after she was charged, police reopened the deaths of some of her other husbands.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Betty Neumar who the papers dubbed "The Black Widow Granny." Was Betty a monster who killed husband after husband to get her hands on their life insurance money? Or, was she a person who had the worst luck of anyone who ever lived? By the time she was arrested, Betty was in very poor health, and it was a race against time to get her into court.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation information.An Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 23 of the True Crime All of the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike, Givie Gibson, give you what's going on? Hey man, what's happening? I'm doing great. Yeah? I'm really having a good week. You and I are taping a lot extra this week.

We are. Trying to get prepared for CrimeCon. Yeah. So that we can kind of get down there and relax and not have to worry with any last minute type of things. Yeah. It's important to get it done. It is. So we've got all of that going on. But, uh, you know, I like it. I like the work and I like what I do. So it makes me happy. It makes me happy too. Let's go ahead and give our shoutouts. Okay. For Patreon, got to wish a happy birthday to Camara from James. Hey, Camara. Happy birthday. We had Kimberly Kaffir. Hey, Kimberly. Marcus Walker. What's going on, Marcus? Clive Williams. Debbie Byrne. What's going on, Debbie? Debbie. Mary. Gomes.

Hey, Gomez. Jenny Tarver. What's up, Tarver? Tracy B. Hey, Tracy. Priscilla Johnson jumped out to our highest level. Well, thanks, Priscilla. We had Scott with a K.

What's up, Scott? Pretty cool spelling. Yeah. Lucy. Good old Lucy. Rachel Leclair jumped out to our highest level. Leclair sounds like, is that like a donut? It doesn't sound like a donut or something?

Was that a Leclair? How's that name different than what you just said? Leclair, Leclair. That's an Eclare. Oh, yeah. there you go. I'm sure that Rachel is very happy that you compared her last name to a donor. Yeah, well, I'm sorry, Rachel.

Kimberly McIntosh. Hey, Kimberly. Jennifer Lyons jumped out at our highest level. Hey, Jennifer. Angel Lee. Hey, Angel. Travis Gosman. What's up?

Gosman. Jason Wolfe. Hey, Wolf. Lindy Rangel. Oh, wrangle with that in here. Glenda Irby. A. Erbie.

Tactical Gardner. That's a bad-ass gardener. Yeah, we spent quite a bit of time talking about what we think a tactical gardener is on Patreon. And last but not least, Teresa Lynn. Hey, Teresa. And then if we go back into the vault Gibbs, this week we selected Shelby Trots. Hey, Shelby. So big shout out to the new supporters, all the people that continue to support us.

We had some great PayPal donations as well from Jason Borell. Hey, Jason. Michael Weeks. Thanks, Michael. Wanda Thompson. Hey, Wanda. And Catherine Alley. I appreciate that, Catherine.

So Gibbs, right now we have a new episode out on Unsolved. We're talking about the suspicious death of Ellen Greenberg. This is one that's fascinated me for a long time. There are some really interesting mysteries. It really is. And it definitely has you scratching your head. Yeah. So make sure you check that out.

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I'm ready. We are talking about a woman named Betty Newmar who earned a notorious reputation as the Black Widow Granny. And we talked about some Black Widows before. I don't know how many Black Widow grannies there are or have been. Always have your first. We're talking about your first granny? Is that what we're talking about? Oh, no, no, no. Okay. That was heading in a strange direction, I thought there. Yeah. But here's the thing with Betty Newmar. Every man she married died under suspicious circumstances. Her case is an interesting mix of solved and unsolved.

So I think, you know, there's really a lot of fascinating aspects to this one. Betty did take some secrets with her to her grave. But on her deathbed, she denied killing her husband. In this episode, we'll take a look at Betty's life, her five marriages. and all the mysterious deaths of her husbands. The audience will be asking the question, we'll be asking the question, and probably trying to answer it,

did Betty deserve her nickname? Or was she just an unlucky woman whose marriages ended in tragedy? Well, if she was, that's a lot of unlucky. It would be a lot of coincidence. Yes. A great number of coincidences

if all of these things happened. and she really had nothing to do with it. I'll say that. Betty Walden Johnson was born in Ironton, Ohio in 1931. There's not a whole lot known about her early life. It seems to have been a pretty uneventful childhood. Her family wasn't extremely rich, but they also weren't extremely poor. Betty's father was a coal miner. But then at some point, the family moved to Florida so he could work on the railroad. The good old railroad days. They still have railroad's today.

You know that, right? Yeah, but back then was the good old railroad. Oh, that's the good old. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Or that conductor hat. What do they wear today?

A different conductor hat. Yeah, you love it when I kind of probe and prod. Can you just let it go? I could let it go. But where's the fun in that? Yeah. So, you know, this episode Gibbs could get a little hard. And I don't want to try to minimize that as much as possible.

We already said that she got married five times. She ends up living in a number of different states and she's going to have a number of different last names, right, due to all these different marriages. Betty graduated from high school in 1949. And she married Clarence Malone in November of 1950. Betty was 18 and Clarence was 19. Now, a lot of people might say that's young. I think today it is.

I don't think kids today are getting married as young as they used to. But back in the 30s, 40s, 50s, it seems like people got married pretty young. And sometimes younger. Oh, younger. Yeah, my grandmother, I think, got married at the age of 13. Now, they were in the hills of Kentucky, so you have to take that into account as well. but they also were married for 50 plus years. Yeah.

So death to your part. Exactly. Now, the marriage between Clarence and Betty was pretty short-lived. Court documents from December 1951 indicate that Clarence was abusive to her, and that was the main reason for their divorce. The marriage did result in one child, Betty's first son, Gary. He was born March 13, 1952. after he and Betty divorced. Clarence married two more women and he opened a body shop. But Clarence Malone was fatally shot in the back of the head in November 1970.

In Brunswick Hills Township, Ohio, there were no signs of robbery and no one has ever been charged with his murder. Now, he and Betty had been divorced for 18 years. So she really was not a suspect. there was no evidence connecting her to Clarence's death. And generally, people don't believe she had anything to do with it. But of course, given all the things that we're going to talk about, it's not out of the realm of possibility. But I think police have pretty much ruled her out. So makes you think a little bit.

Well, it's, yeah, it wouldn't at the time because who's going to be upset and wait for 18 years to put their master plan into motion. Not many people. Unless you're really, really good at master mining. Well, you want to talk about a tactical gardener. Yeah. I mean, that's tactical. That is.

If you're going to sit around and stew for 18 years and then all of a sudden, you're going to kill your ex-husband, you're playing the real slow game there. The slow con or the slow, it's not a con, but you know what I mean? So I do all my revenge. slow, I wait, sit back when they at least expect it. Yeah.

Might take 18, 20 years. I don't know. I got something coming up pretty soon that happened back in high school. No, I just laughed about that. It's not, God forbid, something happens to somebody

that you knew in high school coming up sometime here in the near future. You've now just made yourself as a suspect. Playing around. Yeah. Hopefully you're playing around. Half the time I don't even know, I'll have my alibi.

Okay. I would assume if you've waited this long that you've got it all sewn up. Absolutely. Okay. All right. So we mentioned Betty and Clarence divorced. Betty remarried pretty quickly to a man named James Flynn in 1953. Now, James was a much kinder husband.

He also adopted Gary as his own son. Betty and James had one daughter together named Peggy in 1935. in 1954, but James died in 1955. It wasn't around very long. No. Bringing Betty's second marriage to a tragic end. Now, Betty has given conflicting accounts of what happened to him. To some, she told he froze to death in a truck in New York City.

To other people, she said he was shot on a pier. Okay, those are fairly different. Now, James did die. I mean, there's no doubt about it. that. His death certificate is out there, but there's never been really any evidence linking Betty to his death. So that's kind of, you know, I said it up front. There's some facets of unsolved mixed with the solved in this one. In 1960, Betty was living in Jacksonville, Florida. She enrolled in beauty college under the name Betty Flynn. She married her third husband, Richard Sills, a Navy

soldier in 1963. They met at Betty's beauty salon and fell in love. Richard died on April 18th, 1967. His death was ruled a suicide. And apparently that day, the two had been drinking

for several hours at a local bar. When they got home, they got into an argument. Betty claimed that Richard shot himself during this heated argument inside their apartment. She said that right in the middle of the argument.

He pulled out a gun and killed himself. Betty called the police and told them that Richard shot himself. Her children, Gary and Peggy were in the next room. They heard the argument. And of course, Gibbs, they heard the gunshot. They're in an apartment. It's going to be pretty hard not to hear that. Yeah, it's going to be a pretty loud noise.

Gary ran out and saw the body. There was blood everywhere. And you got to imagine. I mean, he's like 13 years old. Gary was extremely traumatized by what he saw, and I don't know who wouldn't be around that age. Peggy was 11, and she saw some of it as well. She told BBC News. He was laying on the bed, and he went in snorting, and he rolled off the bed, and I asked the paramedic if he was dead. And they said to me to get out of there. That's all I remember. So it sounds like, maybe Gary just being even a couple of years older, understood a little bit more of what was going on, and therefore was maybe traumatized to a greater extent.

That makes sense. Not that she wasn't traumatized. I'm not saying that. I think the key around this one Gibbs is that Navy investigators accepted what the local police told them. So basically everyone accepted Betty's story that they have, had an argument. Richard pulled out a gun and he shot himself. Betty met her fourth husband, Harold Gentry in 1967. He was an army soldier stationed in Key West, Florida. Betty owned a beauty shop

on the island. Love Key West. Oh, man. Have you been? Oh, yeah. Yeah, so much fun. So much stuff to see. I had a friend down there not too long ago. They took a, rented a boat, went out to the sandbar. and spent the day at the sandbar, you know, just a private little sandbar out there. Nice. Yeah, I've only been once and we actually got off of a cruise ship. Oh, did you? And we started to walk and thought we could make it to whatever mile marker one or whatever it is. And we realized very quickly we could not. So we turned back.

But it was cool. We stopped into a lot of the different bars. One of the bars, I think Hemingway was known to have frequented. Oh yeah, probably just down from his house. Yeah, and had a drink there and just a really kind of cool place. Go to Mowry Square and see the sunset and all that fun stuff. Hey, wherever you take your dates, man, that's up to you. We know you got that kind of Key West date money.

Is that what? Flying down to Key West to see the sunset. That'd be nice, wasn't it? I don't know, is it? I don't know. Harold was attracted to Betty because, as he told people, she was fun and feisty. Okay, that can be a good combination. Yeah, fun and feisty.

Depending on the percentage of fun versus feisty. Now, if you got 2% fun and 98% feisty, it may not be. I don't know, you know. That's a bad mix. Right. Just because somebody is this and that, well, are they equal parts this and that? Or are they a little bit country and a whole lot rock and roll? That's like getting too much carbonation in your soda.

It's not good. It's not good. One of Betty's friends told Oxygen that her language could make a sailor blush. So she had a mouth on her, according to at least one of her friends. The two fell in love and married on January 19th, 1968. Their daughter, Kelly, was born not long after they married. Kelly told Oxygen that her childhood was amazing and that her parents were great. The gentry family moved often because of Harold's military service.

He served 21 years in the Army. Amazing. That is amazing. And it's something that you and I kind of know a lot about having an Air Force base here in town. My wife especially teaches very close to the Air Force base. So, I mean, in the middle of the year, she has kids leaving, kids coming in because they're kind of shipped around all over the place. place. After Harold's retirement in 1976, the family decided to move to Harold's hometown of Norwood, North Carolina. They built a house on a plot of land given to them by Harold's sister and

brother-in-law. The house was finished in 1977. And although Harold was retired, he worked a part-time job with the Royal Chemical Company for some spending money, I think also to keep busy. He had a hobby of fixing up antique clocks. Just like you. You like your antique clocks. Sure. That sounds like something that I would be into. But, you know, when you think about it, and I have some friends that have retired in the military, at the time they retired, they were still pretty young. Yeah. Double dipping is what I call it. And what are you going to do? You're going to sit around the couch watching daytime soaps all day? Probably not for a lot of these people. men and women because they're used to being pretty busy.

Right. They're used to getting up early. They're used to sticking to a schedule. They're not going to sit around in their bathrobe. I think a lot of them eating cap and crunch all day. They've got to stay busy. Like some Captain Crunch. Yeah.

Yeah. I like it too. But I get it. I have friends that were on the base here as military. And then they retired and turned around and went back as contractors. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's twofold.

I think one, people want to stay busy. But two, like you said, double dipping, right? You're getting your retirement. You're also able to go out and make other money. But another tragedy would soon enter Betty's life. Her son, Gary, took his own life in November, 1985. He apparently left a suicide note. His stepchild, Jeff, told NBC,

he remembered Gary was paranoid about a lot of things using banks. He was a survivalist. He also would use drugs and alcohol after speaking to Betty on the phone. I guess that was a tricker point for him. It sounds like it could have been. It definitely could have been after Gary died, Jeff and his mother raced to Gary's home because they believed that Gary had a large amount of cash hidden in the home. and specifically Gibbs, they wanted to beat Betty to the house so she couldn't steal it for herself.

I think that right there tells you what they thought about Betty. For that to be one of the first things that jumps into your mind, I mean, I'm sure they were shocked and they were grieving over the fact that, you know, stepfather, husband is dead. but very quickly, hey, Gary's mom, Betty, he's going to be at that house and she's going to take everything. We better to get to her first. That happens in a lot of families, unfortunately, when somebody passes away.

Yes. You know, especially if it's a mom or dad and, you know. There's a number of siblings or, yeah. Now, this is a mom thought to be kind of after her son's money, which at a certain point is going to bring his death into, question. Now, I don't think I'm foreshadowing anything too off the wall there. But apparently they beat her to the house and they found $16,000 in cash hidden under his bed along with some guns and ammo. Betty and Harold arrived later that night. So I think that validates the fact that she was going to

the house. Now, Gary's wife later said that she blamed Betty for Gary's death. She said, said, Betty was just not a nice person. I mean, I get it. A lot of wives don't get along with the mother-in-law. That's true. And the same with mother-in-law's in their daughter-in-law. So I get it. You're going to have that conflict back and forth. Yeah, that's absolutely true. But, you know, from my experience, a lot of it

is over-petty stuff. Hey, mother-in-law doesn't like the way that you keep your house clean or don't keep your house clean. Yeah. They don't like everything you do. do in raising the kids. They don't like some things you do or how you treat their baby boy or, you know what I'm saying? Right. Things like that. I don't know how many wives you would have come out and say, this person is evil. They're just not a good person. They played a role in my

husband's death. Yeah, that's a little bit more than saying I didn't really care for her cooking. Yes. Now, add that to the fact that Gary Stepchild, came out and said that it seemed like every time he talked to his mom on the phone, after that conversation, he was into drugs and alcohol. Now, Gibbs, one thing that I found very interesting was that Betty received a $10,000 payout from Gary's life insurance. So he left his mom on as the benefactor? Yeah, and I'm just kind of doing the math, right? He died in 1985. He was born in 1952, so that would have made him, what, 33 years old. Yeah. He's got a wife. He's got stepchildren at least. I thought that was strange. Now, I may be way off base and there might be a lot of people saying,

you know, out there, oh, no, I've got my parents or a parent on my life insurance as well. But you would think a guy into his 30s with his own family at that point would have. everything either going to his wife and or his stepchildren. Yeah, not, not, not his parents. Yeah, I thought it was a little odd, but maybe it does happen. Maybe I'm thinking it's odd because people are going to ask the question. Well, of course, right? After we get done talking about some additional things, is it possible that Betty had something to do with her son Gary's death? We talked a little bit about Betty, her character. I think it definitely depends on who is doing the talking. You know, there were some people that thought she was great.

But there were a lot of people that said she was consumed by money and that she was a very domineering woman. Okay. I get it. You want to wear the pants in the family? I got no issue with that. No. Zip them up.

and do your thing. Yeah. But when you start talking about the fact that someone is consumed by money and people around them are dying at already what is a pretty extremely high rate, you know there's going to be life insurance involved. There obviously was in Gary's case. And I'm assuming Gibbs, even though we don't have the information, that there would have been in some of these other ones as well because she was the spouse.

Gary's stepson, Jeff, lived with Betty for about a year, but left because he said he feared for his life. Allegedly, Betty got him fired from two jobs, ruined his relationship with his girlfriend, but the final straw. And I think the most telling for me was when she wanted to buy him some life in insurance. Right there. I'll be a, all right. I'm out. Yeah, ding, ding, ding. Something's not right. He got very concerned. And rightfully so, when Betty told him she planned to buy him a $100,000 life insurance policy and name herself as the beneficiary. That's not good. No. I know you weren't happy the day that I told you that I had taken out $1.5 million on you.

but name myself as the beneficiary. That's just because I thought you under shot it. I mean, really, you only think I'm worth that. Yeah, I mean, with your Key West type of money, I probably should have put it much higher. But it does make you wonder, you know, did she, and she probably did take a policy out on her son back in the day and set, 10,000.

It's just 10,000. For burial fees and things like that. And she probably didn't contribute to his burial at all. Yeah, I mean, again, we don't have all. all those facts. Right. But it does seem strange. Now, I have insurance policies on my kids, but they're, they still live with me.

They're still young. They don't cost anything hardly at their age. They're just kind of, you know, emergency type insurance policies. I don't think I would have one on them if they were in their 30s or once they move out and have a family of their own. Right. To me, that would be strange. I find that very strange.

It's a little strange. Now, I'm not bad-mouthing you out there in the audience if you have that situation going on. But in my world, it doesn't seem all that normal. Hey, Gibbs. Let's take a minute to talk about first leave. Hey, I'm going to let you in on a little secret man. I like to drink wine. My wife likes to drink wine.

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is available. BetterHelp wants you to start living a happier life today. Visit their website and read their testimonials that are posted daily. Visit betterhelp.com slash teacat. That's betterhelp.com slash T-CAT and join the over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. As a special offer for true crime all the time, listeners, get 10% off your first month at BetterHelp.com slash T-Cat. Jeff told NBC that Betty told him, people of our stature have insurance policies on each other. That way, if something happens to you, you take care of me. And if something happens to me, I take care of you.

He wasn't buying it. And I think it scared him. And it was at that point, he basically cut off all contact with her. Smart young man. Oh, yeah, especially once we find out everything about Betty. I mean, look, she already ruined two of his jobs and the relationship. Yeah. I mean.

So the relationship was rocky at that point. Anyway, I think the let's take care of each other. your part is to let me take out a life insurance policy on you. That was the last draw. Some people in Betty's community knew her as B. And I mentioned it. A lot of people said she was friendly. She owned a beauty salon.

She went to church. She raised money for charity. But Jeff told NBC the real Betty would get into fist fights at family gatherings, use a lot of profanity towards others, and belittle them. So I think basically what, you know, he said was she would act one way in public, especially at church, and another behind closed doors. And Gibbs, there are quite a few people that are that way. Well, they sure are. Now, to some degree, I think everybody does that, right?

Do you act the same way at home as you would at church or, you know, as you would in a meeting with your boss at work? No. No. first of all, you're not going to go into the meeting in your bathrobe with stains all over your undershirt like you like to do at home. My cousin Eddie? Yeah. I picture you as cousin Eddie.

Yeah. Shitter's full. Yeah. But maybe that's an overstatement. There's some differences, right, between how you are at home and how you are in front of others, especially places like work and church. Nobody acts the same everywhere. It's the whole kind of theory of letting your hair down.

When you get home, that's where you can be who you really are. Yeah, that's when you can, well, if you had hair, you could let yours down. Yeah, I would love to. I cannot. Not that I can't either, but, you know, I'm just saying. Now, her children thought of her as a caring mother and said, you know, she was just a woman who had a lot of bad luck. Well, that can happen too. It can. Yeah. And I think that's kind of why this story is so interesting. You know, when she was

married to Harold, she told his family a number of different stories about what had happened to her other husbands. She told them her first husband died of cancer. She also apparently made claims that she used to be a nurse when it was pretty well known, Gibbs, that her only occupation was a hairdresser. I mean, that's pretty much what she was her entire life. It's a fairly large fib. Yeah, but some people do fib. They don't maybe think of it as a fib.

They're embellishing. They're kind of changing up some details to make themselves look better. Now, do you really want to sit around the dinner table and tell your husband's family that a number of your past husbands have died? in what may be a not so pleasant way? No. You really don't. So I can see why someone might have an incentive to maybe create a little bit of a different narrative there.

Not sure why you would lie about your occupation. That one seems a little stranger. But I did see when she was younger, she was pretty pleasant to be around. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and again, I think this is the dichotomy with Betty. Some people knew her as this.

And other people had a completely different sense of who she was as a person. Yeah. Especially as she's got older. She got more cold. Not only older, but I think she spent more time with people. Because think about this. She marries.

So she marries into a family, right? We all do once we marry. We gain in-laws and other members of our spouse's family. Sure. Over time, it was as if she became cold to them, like you mentioned. But most of her husbands didn't live that long. Didn't have that longevity with these people. No, but I think even from their perspective, in just a few years, she went from, okay, when we first met her,

she was kind of fun and bubbly. And then as time went on, she was cold. It could be a little moody sometimes too if she drank. Some people can. Yeah. Some people can. Some people get fun. You know, you got your fun drinkers.

And then you've got your people that have some mood swings, we'll call them. Yep. I'd rather have a drink with the Frank the Tank than Moody Marty. Yeah, Frank the Tank's a, he's a cool guy. But Gibbs, less than a year after her son, Gary, died. Betty's marriage to Harold, ended in another tragedy. Harold died on Monday, July 14, 1986. Their neighbor, Emery LeHugh, received a phone call that afternoon. One of Harold's relatives was concerned about him because he hadn't shown up for work, which was highly unusual for him.

we already said that he retired after 21 years in the military. The one thing that I can picture Harold being probably above all else is punctual. That's kind of something that gets drilled into you. Exactly. I like how you said that. Drill. Because it is, right? You have a drill sergeant.

Right. And for 21 years he was in that. And, you know, a lot of times those people are, you know, they get up at the same time every day. They eat at a certain time. They often become very regimented, but they're usually on time for things because that's a big deal. It's important to them. Punctuality. So they were concerned because he didn't show up for work.

Emery went to his house to see if he was there. When he got there, the glass sliding door was open. And Emory found Harold lying face down on the floor just inside the house. He was clutching at his chest and his pipe was still in his mouth. But there was blood surrounding his head. He had been shot a number of times and later died. They found six gunshots to his body. And authorities theorized that he was killed in some type of ambush attack.

The house was completely ransacked. And the police believed Harold walked in on a robbery or, was ambushed, right? One of the other. But what they did think was odd was that even though there was this extensive ransacking of the house, there were no signs of forced entry. Emory spoke to the police and told them he saw Betty and Harold on Saturday afternoon. Betty left in her truck and Harold was outside doing yard work. That evening, Emory heard gunshots. He didn't see anything. And he told his wife it was dark. And two, late for any type of target practice, but he kind of forgot about it, let it go. Now, I'll be honest

with you Gibbs. I hear gunshots from time to time here at my house. Well, sure you do. We have a pretty large field just across the road. Right. There's a lot of times where there are people out there firing guns and it's gotten to the point now where I just really don't pay that much attention to it. Yeah, you're used to it. I'm pretty used to it. So if there were gunshots in my neighborhood, would I just chalk it up to the things that I normally hear? There's a very good chance I would. I'm not calling police. I'm not going to investigate because it's not like I've never heard a gunshot.

I hear them quite frequently. Well, and I think you had a bullet come through your roof one time. I did. I did. That was a little unexpected. You know, that was a big deal. had the police come out and do their CSI Dowrod stick thing.

But even then, they said, we're not going to be able to figure this out. So it's like, okay, thanks for coming. Thanks for letting me know that. Yep.

I like it when they tell you up front. There was really no false hope in that one. Yeah. Yeah. But just like you, you know, gunshots were pretty common in that area too. Yeah,

and that's why I bring it up because I think in this area where they lived, people often shot in their own yards. They did some target shooting, target practice, whatever you want to call it. And so pretty much everyone in the neighborhood said that kind of like what I was saying,

they learned to ignore gunshots. It's not that you don't hear them. You do hear them. Right. It's just that when you do, you don't make anything out of them. Don't give them a thought at all. No, I don't even give them a second thought.

if I lived in a different neighborhood where there were houses all around me and no fields and because a lot of people are probably listening right now and saying how can that be right depending on where you live in the country or in the world that can definitely happen it could happen a lot now if you live in new york city that's not going to happen if you hear a gunshot something very bad is happening probably yeah you should be concerned yeah the only motive that police could think of was Harold's clocks. We mentioned it. He enjoyed fixing clocks and over the years had built up a pretty large collection of expensive antique clocks. Yeah. He tried to keep it on the down low because they were expensive. But I don't know he did that great a job about it. It seems like

everybody in the neighborhood knew about it. And if you think about, you know, if we're talking grandfather clocks. Kind of hard to keep that a secret if you're wheeling them in to your house all the time to fix them up. And all those birds coming out and making those noise and those people going around in the barrel. Okay. So now you're talking cuckoo clocks. Oh, yeah. Is there any other clock? Those are the best clocks. I know those are the ones that you have in your house. I get it. Yeah, I got a whole wall of them just as I stare at the wall all day. But if you think about the grandfather clocks, the fancy ones. Yeah. They can be worth a, ton of money. I mean, they're expensive, first of all, just to buy.

They're expensive just to move them somewhere. Yeah. Or to move them out. Yeah. Police scrambled to find Betty, who was out of town at the time. She was three and a half hours away in Augusta, Georgia, getting her truck fixed. Okay. We might have to expand on that. You're telling me there's not somewhere closer than three and a half hours away that can fix your truck. Police called her and she drove home, Howard's brother Al Gentry first became suspicious of Betty when she got back to the house. Because according to him, Gibbs, she didn't cry at all. And instead of asking what happened or really acting concerned, she spent most of her time

explaining where she was, kind of, at least from Al's point of view, establishing her alibi. Yeah. Oh, I was with some friends down to Marietta. Georgia. I was staying with them. And she was. Police ended up verifying her alibi, but they asked her if she knew anyone who could have or would have wanted to shoot Harold. She said yes. And she went on to tell police this story about four males in a yellow Mercedes who had entered their driveway on multiple occasions. she said she was scared of them.

And she had thought that they were casing the house, thought that they were eventually going to break in. That's a really bright car and a fancy car at that. Yeah. And I think it really stood out in the area where they lived in Norwood, North Carolina. It's been said by some people that it would be nearly impossible for strangers. in a yellow car, any type of car, let alone a Mercedes, to avoid being noticed. But police were never able to locate the car or these men.

So again, what does that mean? Well, either she made that whole story up or the police just weren't able to track the car or the guys inside of it down. Yeah, I think a lot of people probably thought at the time, I think a lot more people thought later on after additional things came out that she most likely made up this story. I mean, think about as a neighbor, you're telling me this car came around multiple times, four guys, strangers to the neighborhood, driving a very bright yellow Mercedes. And not a single person saw it. Yeah, it's hard to swallow.

It is. And it would be in my neighborhood. it probably would be in your neighborhood in most people's. Sure. Neighborhoods. Because if it's not you and it's not me, Gibbs, I'm not that person, but I have people in my neighborhood who are. They're the type of people who are watching everything.

They enjoy it. They're outside a lot. They look to see who's driving by. Sometimes these people are looking out of their window. I see them. I'm okay with it because they're kind of keeping an eye on everything. Yeah. It's not me because I'm down here.

here in the studio most of the time. They're the guardians of the neighborhood. Yeah. Some of them guardians of the galaxy. You have that too. But Harold's murder was very shocking. He was loved by everyone in the community just before he died. He confessed to his brother Al Gentry that his marriage to Betty was unstable. Al told the plain dealer that his brother told him never trust that woman. She isn't who she says she is. Okay. Well, as a brother, you got to be real worried.

Yeah, you'd have to be. And then after you'd have to be really suspicious. Yeah, I think if your brother comes to you and kind of lays this out and says this about his wife, right? You can't trust this person. She is not who she says she is. Harold's family was suspicious of Betty, but no one. one would know the full truth about her until 20 years later. Al Gentry swore he'd never stopped looking for Harold's killer. And he never did. We'll hear from him in a little snippet later

on in the episode. Betty received a $20,000 payout for Harold's life insurance. After Harold died, Betty moved to Augusta, Georgia, where she met her fifth husband, John Numar. They married. in 1991. So I think, you know, just going through the chronology a little bit, Gibbs, you can tell that she was never alone all that long. I mean, she married fairly quickly. She sure did. And you got to think there was probably some period of courting before the marriage. So I don't think that Betty was alone all that much, you know, for long periods of time. And, Of course, many people believe that she's looking for her next victim. I'll say victim.

You mean husband? Husband slash victim. Yeah. And once that life insurance policy is in place, something bad is going to happen. But it's so hard to believe when you look at some of these black widow cases that, number one, someone can be so callous and murderous. But number two, for in what is many cases, a fairly small amount of life insurance, $10,000, it's not a lot of money.

You're willing to take someone's life. Now, we can't say in every one of these scenarios she did because we don't know that for sure. And some of these were never proven. Or she just, again, had more bad luck. Yeah, I think by the end of this, she would have to be one of the most unluckiest women who has ever lived. Not to say that it couldn't have happened that way, but I mean, most people look at the totality of it and think, wow, that is a lot to happen to one person. Yeah, it'd be a big pill to swallow to think that happened all to her like that. Yeah, the way it did.

the way it did. You know, I could see if we were talking about car accidents, motorcycle accidents, or some different things. But when you add in the particulars around how some of her husbands died, I think that's where it gets real dicey. In the mid-90s, Betty convinced about 200 people to invest in a get-rich quick scheme. She told them they'd receive up to $100,000 for every one. $100 they gave towards legal expenses for a rich European family that died with no heirs. Okay, we got to break this down. This seems like, uh, you know, one of those strange emails you get. Right.

From a Nigerian prince or, you know, somebody like that. Just thinking of it logically, though. If I came to you one day, Gibbs and said, I know a way that. with just a $100 investment, you'll get back $100,000. Yeah. In what world, in what realm

is that possible? And if it was so possible, why would you even want to share that with me? Why would you just want to take your own money? Yeah, there you go. See, that's always the, the con, right? People, they just don't see it

because $100,000 is a lot of money. Sure. and $100 is low risk for most. For most. It's only $100. I mean, what if we... What's the worst that can happen? Yeah, maybe we'll get $10,000 instead of $100,000.

And I think, you know, you and I would look at it as, or I know for me, I don't want to speak for you. For me, I look at everything from a very common sense logic type of viewpoint. And I would look at something like that, just like I would look at, you know, the email chains that have gone around for years and years and years and think, okay, that's obviously a con because there's no way that that makes sense. It just doesn't. But you did become really good friends with that one prince. I did. I helped him out of a jam. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it worked out for everyone involved. Yeah. You are a relationship maker. You know, the sad thing, though, is that we know those scams are still out there. And the reason they are is because

somebody bites into them still. Yeah, people continue to. And there's always going to be someone looking to prey on other people. Yeah. I get that. That's, I don't want to say it's human nature, what it kind of is. There's always someone looking to get over on someone else. I'm not shocked about that part. It makes me mad, but I'm not shocked that people try to do that. I, what I am shocked at is that so many people fall for it. And I do think there are a lot of people that are gullible. They just are. And I kind of look at my wife and my youngest daughter as if I wasn't around, they probably would have already fallen into some of these traps. Yeah. My wife is the one that gets the email that says you could win X amount. And she shows it to me and she says, you think I should. sign up for this. I was like, no, delete that right away. They've probably already hacked into your account. Run, run, run away. So you didn't click on that link. Yeah, oh, she already did. Sure. That's why I have to have 18 firewalls and buy five different antivirus programs running at the same

time. So apparently people brought their money to her beauty shop. John's son, John K. Numar, was one person that gave her $1,000. And, you know, I think one of the things about Betty was that people in the community, they came to really trust her, right? She wasn't a stranger from out of town who just drove in and rented a hall and said, hey, people, I got this great thing for you, right? She's the local salon owner. So people trusted her, but those are often the very best con artist.

the people who gain your trust and, you know, they're not carpetbaggers, right? They're not just stopping into town to try to fleece you. They're built into the neighborhood. A few months later, the 200 or so investors met with Betty at the Augusta Civic Center. She told them the lawyers in Europe needed more time. But don't worry, you know, your money is safe. Later in 1997, seven leaders of the scam pled guilty to fraud, but somehow Betty was never charged. It's a huge scam.

It was. And again, I don't know how big her role in it was, but, you know, 200 people. It's nothing to sneeze at. And some obviously gave a lot more than $100. Exactly. It's also kind of amazing Gibbs that she would try to get John's son in on it and succeed. right knowing that this is a scam okay it's not good to scam anyone but you're scamming your family now and john had some money he was worth more than three hundred thousand dollars but the couple

filed for bankruptcy in 2000 gives they had over two hundred thousand dollars in debt spread over 43 different credit cards how many 43 man it's almost like a deck of cards Yeah, nine, nine shy. Yeah. You could play a little game of something. Wow. And reportedly this was all Betty. John Jr. claimed that before his dad met Betty, he was a saver.

So for him, it was a shock to find out that they were in this extreme amount of debt. You know, allegedly, John never really bought anything. So what you're saying, if he was worth $300,000 plus $200,000, plus $200,000, debt, they went through a half a million dollars. Well, I think Betty went through almost a half a million dollars. In 2007, John died of sepsis. He was 79 years old, but Betty never told John's children that their father was dead. Gibbs, they only found out when they saw his obituary in the newspaper. Yeah, so this is where it gets a little murky for me. If you can, up to this point, you can say, she just had bad luck, bad luck, and then you get into this financial scam.

Now she's not going to let her husband's kids know that their dad passed away. Who does that? Well, and then they arrived at the funeral home to find that Betty had already cremated their father without even consulting with them. Betty was the beneficiary of John's life insurance policy. which of course, Gibbs, she had taken out herself. So, of course, she made herself the benefactor. Yeah.

Yeah. And she received the payout shortly after his death. Well, no autopsy can be done, can it? No, not when you cremate the body that quickly. But you're right. There are some things in the previous marriages and deaths that seem hinky. But when you get to this one, when you got the money scam, Betty racking up the debt, cremating the body, not telling the children that, number one,

she was doing that, but that he even had died. Things look very, very bad. But then you have to go back to North Carolina. Back to the murder of Harold Gentry. By this point, 22 years had passed. Police had no suspects. They'd made no arrests in Harold's murder case. His brother, Al Gentry pushed the police to renew the investigation, but they kind of ignored him. Then in 2006, newly elected Stanley County Sheriff Rick Burris was willing to listen to Al. When Burris was elected, Al refused to stop asking him to look into Harold's case. And I think this guy, Rick Burris, had no choice. Al just would not leave him alone.

So I think just to kind of get him out of his office. Sure. Hey, all right. All right. I'll look at it. Okay. I'm going to look at it.

Yeah. Well, we'll open it up. We'll take a look at it. But I totally get that. And I'm telling you right now as a family member, if you've got someone in your family who has been murdered, I think I would be that person who is constantly bugging the police.

But I go back to the very first episode that you and I ever did. of true crime all the time unsolved. We looked into the murder of Jody LeCornou. And we had on Jody's sister, Jennifer. And Jenny was this kind of person. She's never let up on the police, hounding them to find out who committed the crime against her sister. And I think I would be that person, too.

And I kind of respect that. Of course. We've done a few episodes where many years later, It's proved to get the job done. Al Gentry told Rick that his brother and Betty fought all the time. Just before his brother's death, Betty forced Harold to move out because he cheated on her. He was staying in a trailer at the back of the house because he and Betty had essentially separated. He would basically come inside to eat and shower.

But other than that, Betty had completely kicked him out. It was Al's belief that Betty had hired a hitman to murder Harold when she learned he was cheating. He also thought that she had Harold killed because he knew about some of her nefarious activities, but he didn't really make it clear what those activities were. I think the other thing that Al thought was that Betty wanted to get her hands on Harold's life insurance money before he could divorce her. and obviously he would change the beneficiary at that point. Sure. So Rick Burris reopened the case in January 2008 and assigned it to former Stanley County Sheriff's

Detective Scott Williams and Dr. Laura Petler, who was an investigator for the DA's office. They reviewed the file on the crime scene photos and they decided that it looked to them as though the robbery was staged. The items missing were inconsistent with the level of destruction in the home and non-valuble items were stolen while some valuable items remained in the home. The amount of times Harold was shot was excessive. To them, it seemed more like an execution than a random shooting that occurred during a robbery. Sounds like it to me as well. Yeah. And I think a lot of people thought that. I think Harold's brother thought that way back when he just couldn't get anybody to listen, right? Using new databases that were not available back at the time Harold was killed. They found out

that Betty had been married five times. And they found out that all of those men were now dead. Two murdered, one suicide, and then two husbands who died under mysterious circumstances. They noticed a pattern. All of the husbands died when they started having problems with Betty. So I think Gibbs not too hard to theorize that possibly that was Betty's way of resolving her problems. She either killed them or had them killed and then benefited from their life insurance. And then moved on to the next one. And then moved on rinse repeat, rinse repeat.

Or she really had a lot of bad luck. I know you keep throwing that in there, and I also know you're being kind of facetious when you say that. Investigators learned that Betty tried to hire three people to kill Harold, one of whom was a former police officer. Somewhere in the archives, they found a 1986 interview with this officer named Alan Lawrence where he discussed how Betty asked him to kill Harold.

He told the Associated Press that he warned the North Carolina police for two months before Harold died that Betty was trying to kill him. So apparently gives she tried to hire Lawrence and then she tried to hire two women. Debbie Parker and Kathy Udy. Debbie Parker is Lawrence's sister-in-law. Both women were Betty's neighbors. So, I mean, it's kind of like you're just running around asking people that are close. hey, will you kill my husband?

Yeah. One of them happens to be a police officer. But if you don't want it to, just pretend I never asked you and just forget about it. But I go back to this statement by Alan Lawrence, if it is true. You know, he told the AP that he warned law enforcement. And they obviously either didn't take him seriously. This is if his statement is true, that would be horrible. It would be.

Kathy Udy told the police that Betty was constantly talking about how much she hated Harold. She wanted to get revenge on him for cheating. Yes, that was her big thing, according to some of these people. At one point, Kathy stopped visiting Betty because she just couldn't take it anymore. She didn't want to have to hear about it. Lawrence left the police force in 1986 to start a swimming pool. supply business. And it was inside this business where Betty spoke to Debbie. And Alan noticed that after the conversation Debbie seemed upset, Debbie told him what Betty wanted. And she asked

Alan to talk some sense into her. That's when Betty asked Lawrence to kill her. He refused. I think he also added Gibbs that it's not right. You can't be walking around saying things like that. Betty came to the store two more times to ask him to kill Harold in the 30 days before Harold's murder. Betty managed to gather a large sum of cash by collecting from a number of different people who I guess owed her money. Probably do you use it to pay a hitman. I think that's what police came to believe. Investigators tried to send in undercover agents to get a confession from Betty, but they weren't able to, they never could really find Gibbs that smoking gun to convict her of first-degree murder.

The DA gathered enough evidence to arrest her for solicitation to murder, a lesser charge. And on May 21st, 2008, Betty was arrested and charged with one count of solicitation to commit first-degree murder, Betty was shocked. She said she couldn't go to jail because she wouldn't have her metal comb or her blue shampoo. Okay. I get that. Those are items that you like. Yeah. To me, there's a little more important reasons not to go to jail, but. You wanted to keep that dandruff in control. Yeah, I guess so. She was really worried about that. Of course, they're not going to listen to that. They took her anyway. Betty was 76 years old when she was arrested. The media began calling her the Black Widow. When the news got out,

And a lot of outlets called her the Black Widow Granny because she was 76 years old. Sure. I want to play a clip from Harold's brother Al Gentry. It's from an interview that he gave to WCNC News in North Carolina. I quit being surprised a long time ago. That's Al Gentry. He tells me he always suspected Betty Newmar had something to do with the 1986 murder of his brother. Harold Gentry was found gunned down inside his Stanley County,

home. Now his widow is in a jail-issued jumpsuit, accused of hiring a hitman 22 years ago. Oh, man, that's for his outfit she's ever had on her in her life. I've never thought they'd ever get her. Because she is slick. She should be a lawyer. She's a darn slick. So, I mean, there was just something about the way that he talked that I liked. But the fact that she's wearing this, and you can't see it, but obviously in the video, she's wearing this orange jumpsuit, Gibbs, walking around. And he says, oh, that's the prettiest outfit she's ever worn in her life. But I think you get there from out, you know, the sense of when he talks about the fact that he never thought they would get her. I get that.

It's been 22 years. He's been prodding law enforcement. He's been trying to get them to do something. 22 years is a long time to try. to get justice for a loved one. But you can also tell, I think, that he's pretty happy. He's really happy. Dr. Laura Petler interviewed Betty about all her husbands to get her story.

At first, she was unwilling to talk, but she eventually opened up. Betty told the Stanley County investigators that Clarence died of cancer. They located James Flynn's New York death certificate, but there was no cause of on there to verify Betty's story about how he was shot on a pier. While the interviews were taking place, the police searched Betty's home. They found the urn with John Newmars ashes. They seized the ashes for heavy metal testing, but the results weren't delivered until a few months later.

They also found some chemicals containing heavy metals in the garden shed. On July 22nd, 2008, Betty was indicted on three counts of solicitation to commit first-degree murder. She was charged for soliciting the murder of her fourth husband, Harold Gentry. The indictment claimed she tried to hire three people to kill Harold. And really, Gibbs, this was a case where investigators couldn't find any direct evidence for a murder charge. so they really had to go with the solicitation charges. Again, they had no direct evidence, no smoking gun, no Perry Mason type moment that proved she had a hand in the murder. It said that feeling.

Yeah, I believe they had a feeling that she did murder or was involved in the murder of Harold, most likely involved, right? Because if you remember, she had an alibi and the alibi was verified. Well, okay. But if you get someone else to kill someone, then yeah, your alibi is going to work. She spent a few months in jail. But on October 16, 2008, Betty Newmar was released when she paid her $300,000 bail. She had some money. She had at least $300,000.

She did. That's what it tells me. Yeah. She then went off the grid to Louisiana to live with her daughter. And really gives not long after her arrest in North Carolina, Florida investigators reopened the case of Richard Sills. But they dropped it in November of 2008. The statute of limitations prevented them from exuming his body. Premeditated murder has no statute of limitations.

for exhumation, but other types of homicide do. The Associated Press contacted Michael Sills, Richard's son in 2009. He had never met his father and had no idea he was even dead until journalists told him. That'd be hard to take, huh? It would. But after he learned about Betty's charges, Michael Sills asked the Naval Criminal Investigative services to investigate his death. NCIS documents indicate Richard Sills had two gunshot wounds. One pierced his heart and a second one pierced his liver. But no autopsy was performed when he

died. So all they had were, you know, some records. But I think Gibbs, if all of this is true, It really casts a lot of doubt on Richard taking his own life, really kind of puts it more into the category of him being murdered. One lieutenant told Oxygen, if you try to take your own life with a gun, if you shoot yourself the first time and you don't die, your body automatically goes into a defensive mode where you throw the gun down. So you never see anyone take their own life by shooting themselves twice. That makes a lot of sense to me. I think if you shoot yourself, okay, you're talking about a lot of pain, agony. Are you really going to be able to fight through that and pull the trigger a second time. I'm sure it's possible, but it sounds like, especially in this guy's opinion, it's, it's very unlikely. It's not the norm. The other thing I would say is that most people don't try

to end their life with a gun by shooting themselves in the stomach area. Right. That is a very slow, painful, inefficient way to do it. Typically, you want it to be done it over quickly. Unfortunately, the statute of limitations also prevented the Navy from exhuming Richard's body. John Newmar's family began to suspect Betty poisoned him. Apparently, arsenic poisoning has some of the very same symptoms as blood sepsis. The lab tested John's ashes and delivered the results on August 8, 2008. They did find evidence of heavy metals, but they did find evidence of heavy metals, but they couldn't determine a quantity. So in the end, the results were inconclusive and Betty's involvement,

whatever it may have been, if anything, couldn't be determined. Case closed. Yeah, there's nothing else they can do. James Flynn's death was the only one police did not choose to reinvestigate. They looked into Clarence's death, but they closed it pretty quickly because, again, there just wasn't any evidence to prove that Betty was involved. One of Clarence's brothers told the AP that he didn't believe Betty had anything to do with it. Well, there were some rumors that Clarence made some local motorcycle gang pretty upset. Yeah, those rumors did fly around. And again, depending on what type of motorcycle gang you're dealing with,

it is a way to get yourself killed. if it's one of those motorcycle gangs that has no problem taking life, as some do. Yeah, there's a few. In a 2009 BBC documentary titled Black Widow Granny, Betty professed her innocence, she said, later on, it's going to eat their heart out. The hate and discontent that they're living in now will make them miserable. She said she had to forgive her accusers because if you're going to heaven, you have to forgive. And towards the end, Betty said, I cannot control when somebody dies.

That's God's work. Yeah, but when you give it a little help, you know. Well, it's not a true statement. You can control when somebody dies if you make the decision to murder them and take their life. I mean, you have that control if you choose to. exercise it. We hope you don't. We'd rather you didn't. But if you're going to pour a little powder in somebody's milk every morning, you know. From Betty's arrest to her death in 2011, she was in pretty poor health. We mentioned she was 76 at the time she was arrested. But

the poor health led to some significant delays in her hearings and her trial. In May 2009, The prosecution found out why Betty couldn't make her court appearances. She had cancer Gibbs that was ravaging her entire body. Her original trial was scheduled for December 2010. It then was later rescheduled for February 2011, but got delayed again. But Betty never saw her trial because she died on June 13, 2011. in a Louisiana hospital. Just before she passed away, she called her daughter Kelly and her husband to her bedside. She told them, I didn't do it. But I can tell you right now, I'm going back and I'm going

to be with Harold and John. That's the two loves of my life. Betty closed her eyes and died shortly after that. Her son-in-law told the Associated Press. She was a tough country girl and fought through a lot of pain. After Betty died, the NCIS dropped their investigation. Georgia authorities closed their investigation of John's death after the lab testing. And this is a decision that John's family has heavily criticized. North Carolina is the only state that has kept their case open. After her death, news came out that Betty had a secret life. She had multiple driver's licenses from a bunch of different states. She had a lot of different passports, credit cards, and other people's names. She had bank accounts in Germany.

I think in all, she had 28 different aliases through passports, driver's license, and credit cards. I mean, Gibbs, this, I think, is even more. than what you have. It's up there. And your Jason-born safe deposit bar. One of my safety deposit boxes. Oh, that's, I don't know about all of them.

No. But I think it's one of the things that, you know, really fuels a lot of speculation in Betty's case. What was she doing with all of these kind of fake IDs with all of these aliases? Yeah, makes you wonder, you know, you go back to one point they had 43 credit cards, you know. some of that related to that. Well, I assume that those 43 were in their name. Maybe she ran up some fake IDs to get more credit cards after that maybe. Who knows?

It's bizarre. And why we have a bank account in Germany, unless one of her husbands had an account there while they were in the Army or the service and kept it and just put it in her name? Or did she purposely open a bank account in Germany just for her? I don't know. A bunch of great questions. Why Germany? Why not the Cayman Islands? Right. We usually talk about the Cayman Islands when it comes to those types of things. I think the question of Betty's responsibility for Harold's murder really gives any of her other husband's deaths remain unanswered. Al Gentry died in 2013. He never really got closure for his brother's death. He was 68 years old when he died and in very poor health.

His wife, Diane, told the Salisbury Post that his health problems were worsened by the stress of searching for Harold's killer. And I actually think you see that quite a bit in some of these cases. A lot of times it's parents who have lost a child. Their health deteriorates rapidly over the years because they're dealing with constant stress. what happened to my son or daughter, or even if they know what happened, who did it? I can imagine that dealing with those types of things would create a great amount of stress

and really take a tough toll on you mentally, but also physically your body. You're probably not taking care of yourself. Oh, no doubt, not getting enough sleep. I mean, eating the right stuff. Yeah, it all has an impact. I think when you look at all the evidence that, investigators gather.

It seems fairly clear that Betty was involved in Harold's death. Unfortunately, she never made it to trial. She was never convicted. It's possible she was involved in Richard's death as well. But if they can't exume his body, which it doesn't seem as though they can, I'm not sure how they'll ever get the answers that they need. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, you know, it, to me, it's, it's a very interesting one. You know, was Betty a killer who only cared about money, who knocked off multiple husbands to get their life insurance?

Or as you've kind of said throughout the episode. Really, really bad luck. Yeah. Was she just one of the most unlucky women to have ever lived? or was she somehow cursed in that her marriages all ended in some type of tragedy. Yeah. I don't know. To me, I can't sit here and say that I know for sure she was involved in the death of all of her husbands.

But it's pretty hard not to think, at the very least, she was involved in some way in Harold's death and Harold's murder. Yeah. I think the other one seemed pretty suspicious, but this one seems pretty spot on. Yeah, I think they gather enough evidence that my thought is, if it had gone to trial, a jury most likely would have convicted her. So if she was able to do that, then it's kind of hard not to think that, okay, she most likely had a role in at least some of the other deaths as well. Right.

But to me, it's always tough when a person dies before they can go to trial. Get their day in court. Yeah, they've been charged, delay, delay, delay. The trial gets pushed out years and years and years and years. And they have health issues and die. Okay. What do you do? What do you make of that at the end of the day?

Because a jury never convicted her. but I think almost everyone looks at the evidence against her in Harold's murder, at least for the solicitation. Sure. And says, yeah, that was enough. A jury would have convicted her of that. But remember on her deathbed, she said she didn't do it. What else would she say, man?

Why would there be a reason to admit it when you probably know you're about ready to die and you haven't been convicted. Yeah. You're getting ready to meet your maker if you believe in that. So a little different type of case for us. But like I said, I think there is some solved. There are some unsolved. Now, do you say technically solved?

I guess you can't because there's no conviction. But like I said, most people believe there would have been. Yeah, I think she was convicted by the public. Yeah, I believe that as well. But that's it for our case on, Eddie Newmore. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out?

Let's hear him. Hey, Mike and Givie. This is Jacob from Wyoming, Iowa. Today, I have to brown a bunch of hamburger, and you guys have been helping me through it. I've listened to a bunch of episodes, and I'm still trying to catch up, but I just thought this is a perfect time to leave a voicemail

because it's for my brother's graduation. So if my voicemail gets on, Luke, you owe me big time. So thank you guys and keep your own time ticking. Pay up, Luke. Well, like you, Gibby loves to brown a lot of hamburger. It's kind of one of your favorite things to do. Just brown on any type of meat. Yeah, yeah, really.

Doesn't even be eating it. I'm just browning it up. It doesn't even need to be a hamburger. But I will say, Luke now owes his brother. I mean, I think that's pretty well known. You're on the hook. Hi, Mike. Hi, Gibby.

This is Michelle calling from Oklahoma. and I just listened to the Patreon-only episode about Suzanne Caper. It was just horrific. First of all, it was horrific. I can't even think of another word to describe it, but something that I wanted to just mention was her family. I mean, I can't imagine going that long a week without even checking on my daughter. I mean, I know that she had moved out, but my 16-year-old, you know,

what was up with the family? I mean, I don't know. It's really just a very bad case. But thank you all for sharing, even when it's difficult, and just for making us aware of things that are out there, you know, teaching us to keep our head on this level. So thank you again for all you all do. Yeah, it was definitely a rough case.

I mean, I know her dad was looking for her at some point. Yeah, because he actually ran into her killers. Yeah. And asked them, but there wasn't a lot of the, detail about what her family was doing other than this run-in that her dad had with her eventual killers it was an extremely rough case and you know you and i tend for the patron only to pick a lighter cases where we can have a little more fun this was not one of them no this was a brutal torture rape murder case of a 16 year old girl in england yeah and

And we got emotional at the end because it was so brutal. Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Nelson. And I just want to say thank you both so much for the great content. I'm a security guard and I'm stationed in the middle of the woods in northern Minnesota 12 hours a day. So I got to say, you guys really make the time go by fast. So, yeah, thank you so much for that and keep your own time ticking. Hey, what are you guarded in the middle of the woods?

I know. It's very mysterious. I want to know, too. Yeah. It's probably something with top secret level clearance. Something like that. Middle of the woods. Middle of the woods.

All right, buddy. We had no mailback this week. So that's it. That's it. That's it, man. For another episode of true crime all the time for Mike. And give me. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.