True Crime All The Time - Bogu Kailai

Episode Date: November 22, 2021

In 2011, Neil Heywood was murdered in China. The fallout from the ensuing investigation resulted in one of the biggest scandals in China's recent history. Bogu Kailai was the daughter of a Communist Party general and was married to a high-profile Chinese politician named Bo Xilai. Bogu's murder of Neil Heywood rocked the Chinese government.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder of Neil Heywood by Bogu Kailai. This case made headlines all over the world because it involved family secrets, murder, politics, and a police coverup. Many different levels of the government got swept up in this case. But, some questions still remain, including the true motive for Neil Heywood's murder.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 260 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson. Gibby, what's going on with you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about you? Doing great. Good. Happy to be in the studio. I just had a pretty good dinner.

Yeah, we did. You know, I got to feed you before we record. It's a requirement. It's in your contract. It is. That and I have to separate out all the M&Ms and take the brown ones out. Yes. Which is a pain.

but it's in the contract. What am I going to do? It's what I demand. Exactly. Hey, let's start out by giving some shoutouts. For Patreon, we had Amanda Grover jump out to our highest level. What's going on, Amanda? Belinda. Hey, Belinda. Mary Kelly jumped out to our highest level. What's up, M.K. Lynette jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Lynette. Andrea jumped out to our highest level. Wow, thanks, Andrea. We had Holly Furlong. Hey, Furlong. That's my mom's maiden name.

Is it? How about that? Yeah. Carmen Blaylock. What's going on, Blaylock? Jessica Caldwell. Well, thank you, Jessica. Alicia Thompson. Hey, Alicia. Suzanne Herko. Oh, what's up?

Hercco. Benita Farius. Well, thank you, Farias. Ashley C. Graves jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Cegraves? Shelina in Woodbury. Well, I appreciate that, Sheenina. Brittany J.

What's going on? Brittany. Elizabeth Clayman jumped out of our highest level. Hey, Elizabeth. Kristen Hop. Thank you, Kristen. Sonoma Crowfoot. Well, thank you, Crowfoot.

And last but not. not lease Sue Sellers. Well, there's good old Sue. So that's a lot of great new Patreon support. And then if we go back into the vault Gibbs, this week, we selected Nicholas S. There's Nicholas. So we appreciate the new support, the continued support. We had some great PayPal donations from Dana Mackey. Hey, Mackey. Lisa Putman. What's up, Putman? And Rosa Sandoval Zaria. Well, thank you, Rosa. Yeah. So thanks to all of you as well. We also had a Patreon on merch winner Gibbs for October, and that was Patty Miracle. That's really is a miracle.

It's a festivist miracle. Yes. So congratulations to Patty. All right, we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're headed to France to talk about the Anisee shootings. Yeah, it's such a tragic event. You know, you had a family that was headed up the mountainside. and when they got to the top of the mountain,

along with just another individual on a bicycle, end up being victims of a shooting. And we'll kind of dive into why and how and potential suspects. Yeah, it's a good episode. Make sure you check that out. So headed to France for Unsolved, headed to China for this episode of True Crime all the time. We were all travelers, man.

So we're world travelers. We're very international. on the podcast this week. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready for this episode of True Crime All the Time? I am ready. We are talking about the murder of Neil Haywood, which was one of China's biggest scandals over the past decade.

I mean, this is a case that involves family secrets, murder, politics, and a police cover-up. It made headlines all over the world. Neil Haywood was murdered by Gou Kailai, also known as Bow, Bogu, Kailai, the wife of a prominent Chinese politician. Although everyone involved in the murder has been convicted and sentenced, there's still quite a bit of mystery that remains surrounding the night of Neil Haywood's death and, you know, really the true motive for his murder. So I said, we're headed to China.

It's the first time that we've ever done a Chinese story. It is. So let's see how we do with some of the pronounce. of the cities and the people involved. I got you covered, man. It's going to be a challenging one. I can tell you that right now. It will be.

But I know you have my back as always. I do. Bo Gu Kailai was born November 15th, 1958, in Beijing, Dong Chung district. Gu came from a respected family. She was the daughter of a communist party general who was imprisoned during the 1960s. She attended university. and became an accomplished attorney. She worked as a lawyer in Beijing

and claimed to be the first Chinese attorney to win a case in the U.S. Many of her associates described her as an unforgiving empress. Sounds kind of fierce. It does, but isn't that kind of what you want in your attorney? Yeah.

You want someone who's tough. You want someone who is going, you know, and nail. You want the smartest person in the room. You definitely want the smartest person in the room. Gu Kailai was the second wife of Bo Shilai, a politician. Bo Shilai was born in July 1949. He joined the Communist Party of China in October 1980. Bo was already highly respected for being in prison during Mao Zedong's cultural revolution. His father also survived torture when his family fell out of the government's favor. He was considered what was called a princeling of the

Communist Party. It's almost like royalty. That's what I'm taking from it. In the 1990s, Bo was the mayor of Dahlion, a large port city. Back then, that area was pretty economically depressed and full of state-owned enterprises. Today, it's kind of a tech hub and an international conference city. But I think the big thing gives was that Bo Shilai wanted to make his mark on Chinese politics. He was trying to work his way up the government hierarchy so that his family could live a good life. Well, yeah, he really did want that royalty status. And the perks and the money and everything that kind of came along with it, the power, the prestige. Free noodles. Maybe free noodles. I don't know. Yeah. You'd be okay with free noodles the rest of your life, would you? Oh, you know how much I love noodles. I know. And ramen. Yeah. There you go. Now let's talk about Neil Haywood. He was an Englishman born in 1970. According to the BBC, his friends described him as charming but elusive, a maverick since his school days. I think that's a very descriptive statement. It also sounds a lot like someone I know. Yeah. That's in this room.

sitting across from me. If I wasn't so elusive. Charming but elusive, a maverick. I would kind of pin all of those adjectives on you as well. There you go. Now, I think where you and Neil differed, Neil came from a very wealthy family. And he attended the top schools in England.

Okay, so maybe I didn't have all that. Maybe. Maybe you did not. He also learned Mandarin Chinese, and he moved. to Dalian in the 1990s. I did find the major in Chinese very dull. You tried it.

I tried it. You just didn't like it. Yeah, just, you know, didn't grab me. But think about this guy, right? You know, he's from England. He's born in 1970. So, you know, he learns Mandarin. He moves to China in the 1990s.

He's like in his early 20s. Very accomplished. Very accomplished for sure. At this age. Neil first worked as an English. English teacher, but that really wasn't his goal in life. So he took every opportunity he could to network with local government officials and business owners. Neil eventually married a Chinese woman named Wang Lulu. He and his wife had two children together. So, I mean, he was all in.

Of course. Right. You know, this was not a situation where he was going over to, you know, stay for a year. work as an English teacher, make some money, and then move back to England. He was all in on living in China. Committed. Yeah, definitely. In 1992, while living in the city of Dalyan, Neil wrote a letter of self-introduction to Mayor Bo Shilai. He quickly kind of struck up a friendship with that family.

Now, Neil was very elusive about how he met the Bose. He never wanted to tell any of his friends, exactly how he knew them. The Bose wanted their son, Bo Guagua, to study at Oxford. Very swanky, very exclusive school in England.

Yeah, did a little stint there. Yeah, some teaching, I think, didn't you? Yes. Haywood worked with his connections,

and he was able to get him a spot at the university. Well, you know, that's a big deal. It is a huge deal. That's going to win you a lot of brownie points.

Oh, yeah. So what it did was it allowed Haywood into the inner circle of the Bo family and also access to all of Bo She Lys contacts. Which was very important. Yeah, it was also kind of perfect timing for both of them. I mean, probably more so for Neal because Bo was kind of moving up the government hierarchy. Yeah. At this time. So when you say, okay, he has access to his contacts, well, it's.

contacts get better and better. It's kind of like the old riding the coat tail thing. Sure. Yep. You know a lot about that. Yeah, I keep telling you, get off my coatail, man. I can't, man. It's just, it's just too easy. You make it too easy to allow me to just kind of surf in your wake. Yeah. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I know what you're saying. In the year 2000, Bo Sheelai was promoted to governor of the Liaoning province. In 2003, he became Minister of Commerce for the Communist Party of China. That's big. Yeah.

I mean, you can see how over the years things are progressing probably the way that he hoped that they would. Yeah. Now, maybe he thought they should progress faster. I don't know. But that's a big deal. It is to be the Minister of Commerce for the CPC. Yeah, no doubt about it. He negotiated a trade dispute with the EU Trade Commission.

a guy by the name of Peter Mandelson. But Bose political aspirations were not complete. What he really wanted, Gibbs, was a seat in the non-member standing committee. This was the highest ranking body in the CPC. So this is a guy that had goals. He was working on them, but he had an ultimate goal and he hadn't reached it yet. It's kind of like that top level of the furries that you wanted to be in. Yeah.

I don't know if I'm ever going to. to make it there. Yeah. I just don't have the commitment, I think, that it takes. It's tough. It's tough to get there. It is. I know you tried. I don't just let anyone in. No, maybe one day. In the early 2000s, Neil Haywood started the business as a consultant to foreign businesses trying to invest in China. And Gibbs, he had some notable clients. I mean, we're talking Aston Martin, for one, and a company called Hey Klukeloot and Company, which was a strategic information consultancy group founded by former MI6 agents. Probably somebody you want to work with.

Yeah. Bond. James Bond. Some suspected that Neil was an undercover agent, but that rumor was dismissed by UK politicians who said he was not a government employee. any capacity. But I mean, I think Gibbs, you can see how some people might have thought that. You're working with a bunch of former, you know, MI6 agents. Okay. Are you connected to them? How are you connected to them? Were you with them at one point? Right. Did you hang out with James Bond?

Maybe. I can't tell you. No, you can't. Or I'd have to dispatch you. Yeah, which is not good. You don't want that. So, you know, the thing about Neil is he wasn't rich, but he was wealthy enough to buy property in Beijing. He did have enough money to send his children to private school. A lot of people liked him. They thought he was charming, welcoming. The one thing that a lot of people said about him, though, was that he was a bit mysterious. It's always good to be a little mysterious.

Yeah, I think a little mystery is a good thing. During this time frame, Neil kept up his friendship with the Bo family and had regular meetings with Bo Gua Gua when he visited Britain. One of Neil's friends later told the New York Times, he liked to give the air of having a secret hinterling to give the impression that he might be an intelligence officer, that what he was up to was all hush, hush. But I came to the conclusion that the only thing that really sustained him was his connections to the bows. Okay. Again, sounds very much like you.

I think you kind of relish in giving off the impression that you're a Jason born like character, you know, you can't tell me about a lot of the things that you have going on. There's a lot of things that are hush, hush. There is. Now, is that real? I do. Is that imagined? I do travel international now.

North of the border. It's still international travel. Technically, I guess it is. Yeah, I still have to show my passport. In 2007, Bo Shilai was appointed Communist Party chief of Chongqing, a developing area of China. Gibbs, he went on to become one of the most popular politicians in China. Well, that's got to be good for Neal. Good for Bo, good for Neil, by extension, right?

If you're friends, if you have access to this person's kind of network, well, that network is growing. Sure. It's very large and very influential at this point. That same year, Bo's wife, Gou, was targeted in a corruption investigation. Neil Haywood told his friends that Gou was paranoid and demanded that members of her inner circle swear loyalty to her. she even had them divorce their spouses.

He described her to many people as mentally unstable. And it is strange that not only does she want you to swear loyalty, but it says divorce your spouses. Yeah, that second one is a big deal. It is a big deal. You know, if you were this huge politician and I was riding your coattails as I do in a lot of things, and you said, hey, I want you to swear your loyalty. to me. Right. I'd say, okay, I'm loyal to you. Yeah. But if you said, I also want you to divorce your

wife of 25 years, okay, now we got a problem. Now you're going to step off that coat. Yeah. I got to get on somebody else's coat tail or maybe put on my own coat. Maybe. And see what I can do with that. There you go. Maybe I'll put on Joseph's Technicolor dream coat like Kramer. Yeah. In that one episode of Seinfeld? You look good in that, man. I would. Especially if you could find that one hat, he or two. And the cane? In 2010, Bo used his political standing to crack down on organized crime. He campaigned to instill patriotic values in his area by playing Red Song campaigns and sports stadiums. His campaign slogan was livable Chongchang. But there were complaints that Bo ignored the law and that he allowed his police chief, Wang Li June, to torture.

people to get confessions. Okay, that's not a good thing. Unfortunately, it's something we end up talking about quite a bit. We do. In the episodes that we do. You know, if it's not torture, it's a lot of coercion, you know, deprivation to the point where, you know, someone gives up. Now, here, we're talking about actual torture. Okay. Not too hard to get somebody to confess to what you want them to confess to if you're actually physically torturing them. Yeah. And I'm sure that doesn't make the residents happy. Some of the residents believe that Bo's campaign against organized crime was violent and it was kind of selective. It was focused more on settling grudges than actually protecting the public. Organizations aligned with Bo weren't questioned while organizations that

opposed him were punished. But these rumors, were dismissed at the time. Power, man. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I think is the saying. Power and corruption. Greed. They all kind of intertwined sometimes. And, you know, if you were cracking down, let's say on organized crime and you have some members of those factions or you have some factions that support you, they're aligned with you, and you have others that don't, Well, who are you actually cracking down on? Yeah. And I think that's what some residents were saying happened.

That was the problem when I used to live in Gotham. It was bad. It was really bad. It got baddie, really. But this model that Bo kind of developed in Chongqing, it got him a lot of media exposure. Like I said, he became one of the most popular politicians in China so much so Gibbs that he was at risk of outshining president Hu Jintao and his successor, Xi Jinping. And that's never good.

No, not in politics. It's not even good in business, right? You don't really want to upstage your boss in certain situations. You don't want to kind of outshine them. You want to make them look good, which in turn makes you look good. Right. This is the way I always thought about it. In a wait your turn.

Eventually, you might get there and be on top. Or you can go the other route and kind of do a sabotage type deal and make your boss look bad and maybe get, but there's a lot of risk in doing it that way. There is. Getting your hands dirty like that. In China, there's a transition of power every 10 years. And Bo was set to be at the top of the political leadership the next time the transition came around. So this guy was powerful and he was set to be even more powerful. But despite all the success in his career, not everything was going well in his

homeland. He and goo were distant because he was away from home too much. She was often overseas for business. Chinese bloggers were writing articles about Bo Guagua, who was known for hosting champagne parties at Oxford. I guess he drove a brand new Ferrari. And so you can imagine the context of some of these articles written by the bloggers was, hey, how can this family afford all of this? Yeah, I mean, lavish parties and Oxford is very expensive. Expensive vehicles. Brand new Ferrari. Hey, T-Cat fans, if you've listened to the show for a while, you know I'm obsessed with playing best fiends year-round.

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get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash T-Cat. That's B-E-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash T-C-A-T-T. By 2010, the relationship between Bo Shilai and Neil became strained. The reasons are not really known. There's not a lot out there about why it happened. Neil's friend, journalist Tom Reid, told the BBC that Neil was worried about the rift in their friendship. He considered fleeing China with his family. It's a pretty serious rift then. Well, that's a little bit more than just being worried about the rift. I mean, that's worry to a pretty high degree in my way of thinking because that means you're obviously worried about not only your safety, but the safety of your family. And why are you worried? Yeah. So maybe would you call that a little

bit more than a rift? I think so. Neal's friends noticed that he was stressed. He looked tired. They said he had aged considerably. There's no doubt he was falling out of favor with the Boe family, but he still kept in contact with their son. By November 2011, Things took a strange turn. Zhang Shial Jun, the family bodyguard, accompanied Neil to Chongqing to meet with Bogu Kailai on November 13th, 2011. Neil's friends were suspicious that he was willing to meet with her. This rift had caused about a year-long estrangement.

Neil even told some of his friends that he was worried he was in trouble. He told one friend that he gave. documents about Boshi Lai to a lawyer in Britain as what he called Gibbs an insurance policy in case something happened to him. It's always good to have an insurance policy. Yeah, I mean, we're getting into some real kind of Jason-born type stuff here. Intrigue, espionage, you know, this is the stuff that movies are made up. Royders later reported that Neil exposed one of Gou Kai Lai's plans to move some of. money abroad. Many believe that Gooo knew about these documents and was convinced that someone in her

inner circle had betrayed her. But we know that she was very concerned about those individuals who she considered to be in her inner circle. Yeah, almost paranoid. Well, yeah, swear loyalty, divorce your spouses, you know, it's kind of like you belong to me type of deal. Exactly. When Neil arrived in Chongqing on November 13th, he tried to contact some of the Bo family staff, but no one answered. He was left waiting in his hotel room for hours, gives no one heard from Neil Hayward after November 13th. When the hotel staff came to the room to do their housekeeping, they made a shocking discovery. Neil Haywood was found dead in his hotel room on the morning of November 15th,

2011. The deputy chief of the Public Security Bureau of Chongqing municipality, Guo Wei Guo, who was very close with the Bo family, was designated to handle the case by Wang Li Jun, Vice Mayor of Chongqing, and the chief of Chongqing's public security bureau. He was Bo Shi Lai's closest political ally in Chongqing. Guo Wei Guo asked Li Yang, chief of the Bureau's technical detection and chief of the Public Security Sub Bureau of Chongqing's Uba district

and Wang Zhu, executive deputy chief of the public security sub bureau of the municipality's Shippingba district to investigate the crime scene and case. Okay, so some tough names there. What I take from that is we've got a couple of different districts or individuals from different districts who were asked to investigate this case, this crime scene. You have to wonder if this is the right group to investigate this death because maybe they're too close to the Bo family. Yeah, I don't know if they were or not.

But you could definitely make the argument that the individual who picked these two people was very close. to the Beau family. But what they determined was that Haywood's cause of death was sudden death after drinking alcohol. And they didn't file the death as a criminal case. Instead, they persuaded the Haywood family to accept their conclusion. And they cremated Neil's body in Chongqing without ever doing an autopsy. That's a problem for the future.

Well, it's very concerning. Yeah. The true nature of Neil's. Haywood's death came to light when Bo Shilow's deputy, Wang Li June, fled to the U.S. consulate in Chengdu on February 7, 2012. Gibsey said he had information about the case. He showed up at the U.S. consulate with a bag of documents begging for protection. He told them that his life was in danger because he found evidence implicating Gu Kui Lai in Neil Haywood's death.

He said that she had poisoned him. So U.S. officials agreed to keep him safe. But a standoff followed when Chinese security officers surrounded the building and they demanded Wang's release. One source told the New York Times that Wang Li June was summoned to Beijing to give evidence against Bo. This information was revealed to Boe and he sent security agents after Wang, which is why he fled to the consulate. This theory was corroborated by the fact that Wang was abruptly transferred to non-police

duties in early February, which suggested that he and Bo had a falling out. So in the wake of all this, Wang Li June was accused of defecting from the country. He was detained and hidden from the public. Now, Chinese officials reported that he was receiving what they called vacation-style treatment for stress. And even though they got to him before he could reveal, you know, a whole lot of details, the damage was done. Bo Sheelai's closest ally had betrayed him. But you still have the issue, Gibbs, of a British citizen, an English citizen dying on Chinese soil. The circumstances seemed, I think at the very least, a little suspicious. So on February 7th, the U.S. The U.S.

UK asked Chinese authorities to reopen the case. MPs demanded to know if Haywood was a spy. Prime Minister David Camerson held a meeting with China's propaganda chief. Foreign Secretary William Hayg called for an internal investigation. So they're starting to dig around a little bit. Yeah, I don't think everyone's buying the conclusion, right, of how this man died, especially his friends. Neil Haywood's friends raised doubts about his cause of death.

One of the things that they said was that the guy smoked like a chimney. Yeah. But he only drank occasionally. Bogu, Kailai, and Zhang Zhaozun were put under residential surveillance on March 15th, 2012. And it was in April of that year that the Chinese government announced they were investigating the involvement of Gou Kailai, wife of politician Bo Shilai, in the death of Neil Haywood.

The Guardian wrote every day, new shock waves have rippled out from the death of British businessman Neil Haywood, who is now at the epicenter of Beijing's biggest political earthquake since the Tiananmen protests of 1989. That's a, that's a huge statement. It's a big statement for sure. I mean, anyone of a certain age remembers the Tiananmen Square protests. It was, it was huge internationally. So to say that this was the biggest kind of political shockwave since then, saying a lot. It is saying a lot. On April 10th, 2012, Bogu Kailai and Zhang Zhao June were arrested on suspicion of intentional homicide. Bo She-Low was removed from the CPC and investigated for a serious breach of party discipline. That's a big thing right there.

You know, we talked about it. This was kind of his life's dream, right? This was his whole life. So now he's being removed from the party altogether. He was also accused of in proper sexual behavior for having sexual relationships with a number of other women. Maybe abusing that power. Maybe. The decision to remove Bo from the Politburo wasn't ratified until November 1st, 2012. On July 26, 2012, an indictment was issued to the Intermediate People's Court of Hafei City.

Bogu Kailai and Zhang Zhao Jun's trial began on August 10, 2012. At the Hafei City Intermediate People's Court, all the seats were full. This was jam-packed. More than 140 people attended the trial. Many of them were friends and family of the defendants. And Neil Haywood, some were diplomats from the British embassy and consulate in China. You had a ton of media people, deputies to China's legislature, and members of China's political advisory body. And Gibbs it really was at trial where the full truth of Neil's,

murder was revealed. Global Times wrote the special background of Gou Kai Lai and the relationship between her case and the Boshilai case can easily trigger speculation in society. The social, psychological, and opinion's fear is quite complicated and will linger throughout the trial. The law should be the sole principle followed by the trial, no matter what impact the ruling will have, judges must be loyal to the law. This is a test of their commitment to the rule of law. It will be a landmark trial. So far, it has sent a message to society that nobody, regardless of his or her status and power, can be exempt from punishment if he or she behaves unscrupulously. What's a good thing? What they're saying here, right? They're saying just because you're in power,

you're not out of the reach of the law. Yeah. Nobody. is above the law. Now, that's not true, right? Everywhere in the world, you go back through history. That hasn't been true in a lot of places. Exactly. And certain times, that hasn't been true here in the United States. And some would argue it's not even true today. Right. If you've got enough power, you have enough prestige and you have enough money, you can get out of just about anything. I think a lot of people truly believe that. Now, we're seeing some cases that kind of fly in the face of that lately, you know, maybe not all murder trials and things like that. Just think about the college admission scandals. Oh, for sure. Some very high profile actors, you know. And business owners. Business owners were held accountable for their actions. But I honestly think Gibbs, by and large, a lot of people feel as though. And it's probably true, right? People with money get away with thing much more often than

people without money. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And they can, if they do get in trouble, they have better resources. That's what I'm saying, right? You got money. Just look at Robert Durst getting out of that murder in Texas. I think some people think that was almost laughable that he was able to get out from that. Now, they got him now for something else, but, you know, he did get out from under that thing. Judge Huchu and Ming, chief judge of the number one criminal division of the Huffay City Intermediate People's Court, began to trial at 8.30 a.m. Bogu Kailai and Zhang Zhajouhai and Zhang Jiao Jun were escorted to the defendant's seats. The prosecution presented their evidence and forensic reports. They had the defendant's statements, they had witness statements,

material evidence, documentary evidence, records of inquests and examinations, expert conclusions, as well as audio and video evidence. The defense presented their evidence from briefings with Bogu and Zhang. Legal representatives for Neil Haywood's family presented their opinions on the case. A prosecutor, Du Wei, read the indictment to the court. He said, Bogu, Kailai, and her son Bo Guagua, had conflicts with Neil Haywood over money. Bogu was worried because Haywood threatened her son. She and Zhang created a plot to poison him. Zhang Zhaozun worked for the general office of the Chongqing Municipal Committee of the Communist Party of China.

Zhang also worked as a bodyguard for the Bo family. We talked about that, right? He was part of the inner circle. So essentially the prosecutor is saying that the two of them conspired to kill Neil Haywood by poisoning him. He accused them of committing murder by poisoning. Gu was charged as principal and Zhang was charged as an accessory. Their actions violated Article 232 of the criminal law of the People's Republic of China. It was said that the right to life is the most basic and important right people have. The defendants took a life and damaged the happiness of several families.

They should be held criminally responsible for homicide. I don't think anybody would argue that. Yeah. Common sense, right? That's just common sense. Both defendants made statements and confessed to intentional homicide. The prosecutors and defense cross-examined, Gou and Zhang.

The prosecution argued that Guo Wei Guo and his investigative team found that Bogu Kaila was suspected of committing the crime. But they covered up her presence at the scene by fabricating interview records, hiding evidence, and other illegal measures.

They covered up Haywood's true cause of death and persuaded the family to allow cremation without an autopsy. So we talked about this, Gibbs, you brought it up. The two people put in charge of investigating the crime were most likely loyal to both. So would it be shocking that if they found out that his wife was possibly involved, that they might try to cover that up? And that's what the prosecution argued actually happened.

And I thought it was strange when we talked about, you know, how quickly Neil's body was cremate. Extremely quick. There was no autopsy performed. And now, you know, you kind of find out that his family was persuaded to allow all of this to happen. Why such a rush to cremate the body if there was no foul play? Well, we know what the real reason is. I'm assuming the reason that they gave the family was that there was no foul play.

He died from, you know, drinking too much. It was, I guess you would call it a natural death is what they were saying. So why would you need an autopsy? Let's just move forward with the cremation. You as a family can grieve and move on. But after Wang Li Jun entered the U.S. consulate in Chengdu without authorization, that's when the Ministry of Public Security paid more attention to his report. that Bogu Kailai was suspected of murdering Neil Haywood.

The ministry set up a new team to reinvestigate the case following Chinese law. The public security department interrogated 394 people and they created 212 evidence documents. They determined that Neil Haywood was a victim of homicide and it was Bogu Kailai and Zhang Zhao June, who were their top suspects. Now, back at the trial, Bo Gu testified first. She said that it was in 2005 when her son was studying in Britain that Neil Haywood wrote a letter of self-introduction, showing his intent to get to know us. Gou and her son, Bo, became acquainted with Hayward. She introduced him to serve as proxy, to a company and participate in the planning of a land project. Well, I guess the project never got started. Haywood got into a dispute with

Bogu Kailai and Bo Gua Gua overpayment and other issues. According to her Gibbs, Neil threatened Bo Gua Gua GwaGua safety. And it was after Bo Guo learned about the threats that she decided she was going to kill Neil Haywood. So this is what she's testifying to on the stand. I'm the protective mother, right? This man threatened to kill my son. I wasn't about to let that happen. So I made the decision I was going to kill him. Sure. Yeah. Because she's already admitted to the murder. The Global Times quoted her as saying, to me, that was more than a threat. It was real action that was taking place. I must fight to my death to stop the craziness of Neil Haywood. Zhang Zhao June testified next. He said,

said that on November 12th, 2011, Bogu Kailai asked him to contact Neil and schedule a meeting. Zhang called Haywood and told him that Gu wanted to meet in Chongqing. Zhang offered to pick Neil up and bring him there. Haywood agreed to the meeting, but said he had to check his schedule. He called back 30 minutes later and said he was available on the 13th. And he asked Zhang to book a flight for him. On November 13th, Zhang escorted Neil Haywood from Beijing to Chongqing. Haywood checked into the lucky holiday hotel.

And Bogu Kai Lai prepared her materials to poison Neil that evening. She purchased a glass bottle that contained a cyanide compound and a medicine bottle that contained encapsulated drug. Gu gave the bottle with the cyanide compound to Zhang and she kept the medicine. bottle. At 9 p.m. on November 13th, 2011, Goo and Zhang visited the hotel. They brought along with them the two bottles. They also brought some wine and tea. Gou drank wine and tea with Neil while Zhang waited outside. Neil got drunk and fell down in the hotel bathroom. And it was after that that Gou called Zhang in. Zhang carried Neil to the bed. He vomited. He asked for some water.

But instead of giving him water, goo poured the poison into a soy sauce container, mixed it with water, and dripped the mixture into Haywood's mouth as she talked to him. Wow. She knew what she was doing. She did know. Then she scattered the drugs on the floor.

So this was a staging, right? She was trying to stage this as though he had gotten drunk. And then he had, overdosed on this medication. Yeah, trying to make it appear something it wasn't. Gou and Zhang left Neil in the hotel room while he died from the poison. And it was goo who put a do not disturb sign on his door and told the hotel staff

not to bother him. And I think gives from some of these details that were giving, not that hard to figure out, right? For investigators after it got passed, you know, the people that were trying to cover it up to figure out who was in this hotel room with Neil Haywood. They had probably been seen by people. They had interacted with hotel staff. They probably even had them on some type of CCTV footage. So Gibbs, I get the plan. I mean, I don't agree with it, right? Obviously, they set out to kill this man. But I get what they were trying to do. What I don't understand is completely how they thought they were going to get away with it. Like I said, there had to have been a number of people who could put them either in the

hotel room or at the hotel. I mean, it's kind of suspicious, right? When you go to hotel staff and say, hey, oh, by the way, don't disturb Neil Haywood in room whatever for the next couple of days. He doesn't want to be disturbed. Later on, you find out that he's dead. It's not going to make you look real good, right? No, no. And you're going to want to say, someone told me to wait a couple days. I think the hotel staff was okay, not disturbing him per the request until they find out that he was dead. And then maybe they're going to say, hey, hey, we didn't go to the room. We didn't check out the room at the request of this person. Exactly. Right. Yeah, they're not going to want to get in trouble, right? They don't want the finger pointed at them. So I guess that was the part that I really struggled with

understanding. And maybe they just thought because of their status, they would get away with it. DNA from both defendants were found on bottle caps and cup lids in the hotel room. Blood extracted from Neil's heart and samples of his vomit were tested again. The investigators found trace evidence of cyanide in his blood and vomit. His cause of death was changed to cyanide poisoning. So, you know, it's kind of back to what I mentioned before, right? This second investigation, I'll call it the real investigation. I don't think it was all that hard for them to put, you know, it together, figure out what

happened. The original investigation where they kind of swept everything under the rug was kind of laid bear. Mm-hmm. Right. And again, maybe that goes to the. the point of why Gou thought that she would get away with this. Okay.

I'm connected. There's no way that I'm going down for this. Well, for sure at one point, that was going to be the case. Yeah, it almost was, right? Bogu Kailai's defense attorneys filed an application to the prosecution to evaluate her mental state at the time of Haywood's death. psychologists from the Shanghai Mental Health Center examined her. They studied her medical records, interrogation transcripts, witness testimony, and they interviewed her. They concluded that goo had been

treated for chronic insomnia, anxiety, depression, and paranoia in the past. She had a history of taking antidepressants, sedative, hypnotic, hypnotic, and antipsychotic. drugs. And they concluded that she developed a dependence on some of these drugs, which led her to develop a mental illness. But they also concluded that she had a clear goal and motive when she committed the crime. She made preparations in advance. Now, obviously, she had to obtain the poison. She had to store it somewhere. She had to make a plan to get Neil Haywood. to Chongqing and Gibbs, she lied to protect herself after the murder. So she had the ability to identify the nature and consequences of her behavior.

And therefore it was determined that she had the capacity to accept full criminal responsibility. And she should. Well, I think it's hard to argue with that conclusion. There are people who are severely mentally ill. And I believe there are some individuals who commit crimes who genuinely don't know right from wrong. Now, I don't know how common that is, but I do know it happens. But when you see a case like this and, you know, the facts come out, it's really kind of hard to believe that that's the case here, right?

With all of the preparation beforehand and then all of the kind of cover up after the fact. Well, if you don't know right from wrong, why do you need to do all that stuff? Exactly. So her lawyer is going to have to kind of change their approach a little bit, though. They're not going to really challenge these charges. Yeah, well, first of all, she admitted to the murder. Now, when the determination comes out that she had the capacity to accept, you know, the criminal responsibility, it's really hard to challenge everything.

So instead, Goose lawyer argued that her client made what she called significant contributions by reporting offenses by other people. So basically what she's saying is she cooperated. She dined on others involved and the court should take all of that into account for sentencing. She's going to be found guilty. Oh, yeah. Now it's just a matter of how do we mitigate. the sentence, right? How do we get it down as far as we can? What I found very interesting is that this

entire trial lasted only about seven hours. The court announced judgment would be delivered on another day. But seven hours, Gibbs. Pretty quick. Pretty quick. Now, does that have something to do with the fact that, you know, these two individuals confessed? I'm sure that had something to do with it. I think it removes that part of the puzzle. Bogu Kailai made a final statement. She said, this case has been like a huge stone, weighing on me for more than half a year.

What a nightmare. During those days last November, I suffered a mental breakdown after learning that my son was in jeopardy. The tragedy which was created by me was not only extended to Neal, but also to several families. The case has produced

great losses to the party and the country for which I ought to shoulder the responsibility, and I will never feel at ease. I am grateful for the humanitarian care shown to me by those who handled the case. I solemnly tell the court that in order to maintain the dignity of the law, I will accept and calmly face any sentence and I also expect a fair and just court decision. I don't know what we got going on here. She says, what a nightmare. Yeah. It's a nightmare.

You killed someone. Yeah. I mean, she created this nightmare. Right. It's almost like you're saying, I can't believe I'm stuck in this nightmare. Well, believe it, sister, because you killed someone. Now, she's going back to and sticking to this. You know, I suffered a mental breakdown.

This occurred after, you know, I found out that my son's life was in jeopardy and I felt as though I needed to act. Zhang Zhao Jun apologized to the Haywood family and said, I hope the court can give me a chance to take a new lease on life. I really know that I did wrong. Okay. I hope you do. At this point. On August 20th, 2012, Bo Gu Kailai was given a suspended death sentence.

She accepted her sentence and chose not to contest the charges. In China's legal system, most death sentences can be suspended. after two years if the inmate has demonstrated good behavior. If so, then the sentence gets reduced to life in prison. With further good behavior, her sentence could be reduced even more. But that's a very serious sentence. And I think it's very similar to what you would see over here. I agree with that.

Zhang Zhao June was sentenced to nine years in prison for his role. And remember, they consider, her the principal and him really an accessory. So if you were charged as an accessory to murder over here, I don't really know what you would get, but it might be a little more than nine years. I don't really know. Yeah, I don't either.

We don't do a lot of accessory charges. Either way, it's probably not going to be great. No, you're going to do time. Yeah, and you should do time. So Bogu and Zhang were sentenced. But what's interesting is all the other people involved who had, you know, worked to cover up what happened, they were charged like 10 days before. Joe Wei Joe, Wang Li Jun, Li Wang, Wang, Peng Fei and Wang Ji were all charged with bending

the law to achieve personal benefit. And each man was sentenced to five to 11 years. in present. Wang Li Jun was sentenced to 15 years for covering up the murder, defection, and other offenses. So he actually got more than Zhang Zhao Jun got. He did. Bo Shilai was indicted on July 25th, 2013. He was ordered to stand trial for bribery, corruption, and abuse of power. His indictment read, Bo took advantage of the privileges of his office to gain benefits. for others and illegally received money and items in extremely large amounts. That's not good.

It's not good. He didn't kill anyone, but as far as I know, but he definitely abused his power. He abused his office for personal games. Sure. Basically, he stole from the public. And unfortunately, that happens quite a bit. I think all around the world, anytime you have somebody with quite a bit of power, The lure is there, Gibbs, to misuse that power for your personal benefit.

Yeah. It's too easy for some. For some. A Hong Kong newspaper wrote, at first, Beau refused to cooperate. But now they have struck a balance where he will get less than 20 years. After a few years of jail, he'll get medical parole. So he'll get to spend most of his sentence at home and be very comfortable. It's kind of like a slap on the wrist, really.

Well, I think that's what the paper thought. But on September 22nd, 2013, Bo Shilai was sentenced to life in prison for bribery, embezzlement, and abuse of power. The court found that Bo took advantage of his official position to seek gains from others and accepted large bribes in cash and property. He embezzled public funds and abused his power. So I think the paper got it wrong. They thought he was.

was going to get a slap on the wrist. Sounds like he didn't. Sounds like they came down on them appropriately. Yeah, but man, when all of it came out, you know, he was working with all types of different government officials, businesses.

He got a bunch of money to help, you know, someone import cars, a bunch of money to give out like construction, project work. You knew how to work this, on the benefit himself. Oh, there's no doubt. One business owner provided 2.32 million euros for

Bougu Kailai to purchase a villa in France. That same individual gave Bo a bunch of money for air tickets, travel expenses. This guy even paid off Gu's credit card debt, gave them a Segway scooter. I mean, there's just, you know, it's like, it's like payola. Yeah. Remember the old payola scheme. The thing for me, Gibbs, is I'm not naive enough to think that this doesn't happen more often than it's actually known about or is actually reported. This happens everywhere, man. I find it funny about the scooter though. Like, yeah. All right. Now I'm going to show you something. Forget, forget the 2.32 million euros for this French villa. Let me bring out the scooter. I got you a segue scooter. And those things are huge.

the Segway scooters. I remember seeing them in Chicago back in the day. It's how you could tour the city on one of those scooters. So I mean, Gibbs, we could go through and detail out Bo She Lies, you know, entire misuse of power. It's actually very, very large. I mean, there's so many different things that he did. He embezzled a bunch of money that were public funds. But, you know, I think the, the big thing is he was accused of abusing power while he was dealing with his wife's murder case and causing the defection of Wang Lee June in 2012. And Bo's defense argued that Wang decided to defect because he was in love with Bo's wife. They said Wang realized that he had invaded Bo's family life. He heard his feelings. So that was why he fled to the consulate and defected. So we mentioned he got a life

sentence, but it's definitely possible, I guess, that with good behavior, his sentence will be reduced, and eventually he could be transferred from prison to house arrest. So maybe the paper wasn't all that wrong. I think they thought he was going to get more of a slap on the wrist, but life sentence is no joke. But obviously, it's not a real life sentence with no parole. It's a little luxury life sentence. Well, if you're saying that we can transfer you to house arrest, then maybe you got something to look forward to for sure. In August 2013, Ann Haywood, Neil's mother, spoke out and she urged Chinese authorities to help the family. Neil's sudden death left his wife and children without any financial support and chose not to speak out earlier to avoid embarrassing Chinese authorities. She was disappointed

that the family received no response to repeated approaches requesting help. And Gibbs, I couldn't find out whether the family ever got any type of compensation. But they should have. Yeah, I don't disagree with you. But I think no matter where you are in the world, pretty tough to go after the government for what one of its citizens does. Yeah, I get that. You know, you can't control the actions of every person underneath your government.

Yeah, I mean, you can try them. you can sentence them to whatever after the fact. But if they do something wrong, do you have to pay money to the family? Would it be nice? Sure. Yeah. I don't think the United States government would do that.

I'm not sure that any government would do that. Just out of the goodness of their hearts, I don't know. It's a case, though. No, it is. But, you know, so technically the case is closed. But there are some questions that remain.

We talked about Neil Haywood giving an envelope that was supposed to contain information regarding the Boe family. What was that information? What were those documents he gave to the lawyer in Britain? Gibbs, what was the true motive for the murder? And if those documents had any salt behind them, wouldn't the attorneys would have used those somehow to get some money for the family? Well, if it's the same as it is here in the U.S., I don't think the attorney can.

I just watched a documentary the other day. Now, granted, it was based on something that happened here in the U.S., but the attorney in this case had some documents that would exonerate or he believed would exonerate someone who was in prison, but he couldn't release them because his client was dead. And I guess the attorney-client privilege doesn't end. So maybe we're never going to know. Yeah. The real motive. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. When you think about motive, okay, Gou said it was because Neil threatened her son and she wasn't going to let anything happen to her son. I think most people believe that it was about protecting her family, but not from physical harm,

from some revelation coming out that was going to maybe affect her husband's political career or something like that. Because they worked really hard to get to their status that they were in, right? Sure. They climbed that ladder to be where they were at. And last thing she wanted was, I would think, the last thing she wanted was for them to go back where they began or worse and whatever information was out there that could have been leaked, maybe that would have done that.

Yeah, it's possible. I don't know. I think you're right. I don't know if we'll ever know the answers to some of these questions. What made this case important was how the Bogu-Kailai scandal exposed the secrets of a powerful family and prove that no one is above the law, even those individuals that help make the laws. Yeah, no doubt there was corruption. there was there was quite a bit of corruption but i do think that's a it's a very powerful concept

right no one should be above the law the problem is it's not true everywhere or in all cases or stephen seagall or stephen seagall back when he made some some halfway decent movies yeah he was above the law but that's it for our episode on bogu kaili and the murder of neil heywood Gives, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name's Dakota, and I'm currently living in Germany with my husband.

I just finished the Luca Magnata Part 2 episode. And while you guys were listening to voicemails, you know, you stopped and took a moment to talk about military spouses and stuff. And I just really wanted to say thank you because, you know, a lot of times we're told that we choose this and that. We're not really allowed to complain or, you know, that we decided to have this life where we're constantly moving around and, you know, have a lot of this uncertainty. And, you know, I just, I chose my husband, not necessarily the military, if you know what I mean.

But anyways, being over here during a pandemic and everything, your guys' podcast is really what's kept me going. I started listening at the beginning of 2020 and have been hooked ever since. since. So when you're in a country where you don't speak the language and the people around you are constantly coming and going, it's nice having something like this to be able to kind of always rely on. So I've started listening to criminology at this point too, and I just can't get enough of you guys. So thanks for all you do. Well, it's very nice. And, you know, I think you and I Gibbs, we talked about it after the episode. We truly believe that. I mean, we're not, we didn't just say that to be

saying it. Right. You know, we support our military. We are very appreciative of those who serve. But I do think the spouses are sometimes forgotten because there's a lot involved there as well. And then she just highlighted a bunch of them. She sure did. So thanks to all of you as well. Hey, Mike and Gibby.

Love the show trying to make my way through the vault of the original T-Cat episodes before I moved on to Unsolved. But I wanted to tell you guys about one of the serial killers that. I've been most interested in for a long time now since I saw a movie about it. And it's about Andre Chichikatillo, who is Russia's most famous serial killer, active from 1978 to 1990, eventually convicted of the murders of 52 women and children. But the most interesting part is the investigation and the tenacity of the lead investigator, despite being hampered at every turn by the communist policies of the USSR. It was the first time in the history of a Russian murder investigation that a psychiatrist,

was consulted to produce a suspect profile. But this guy was a total monster. And I haven't heard any true time podcast do an episode on it yet. And I thought it'd be interesting to hear someone do a deep dive into this guy. So hope I teach your curiosity, stay safe and keep your own time taken. So we have not been to Russia. We just did our first episode in China. That's right.

Chickatillo is a big timer. What we would consider a big timer. been on the list probably from the very beginning of us starting the podcast i know that we will cover that case we just have to make the decision to go to russia and and you know really be able to figure out all the names and pronunciations and all that but we'll get there we'll get there hello this is ember and she's up california i just started listening back in september after every episode i mostly just want to call to tell give you what movie he's thinking of um movie suggestions. It thinks we have the same taste in movies. Ressler's Rhapsody. It's a western

comedy. Got Tom Berringer, Andy Griffith, Maryle Hinner, Jim Carter. For Gibby, that's the guy from Platoon, the guy from the Andy Griffith Show, the lady from taxi, and the Butler from downedab. Anyways, the reason I'm calling, just listened to Robert Hanson, and you were questioning, why would he confess to all of these murders, but not to the other exes on the map? Oh, you know that brocode? Why would a friend provide an alibi for murder? I'm thinking he didn't confess to those because he didn't do them. And their friends provide an alibi because they knew full well what he was doing because they ran on it.

Anywho, something to chew on. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Always something to chew on. I love when people think things out and, you know, have their own takes. Now, I always say, I've never heard of Wrestler's Rhapsody. I got it as soon as she named off the characters, the people, the actors. You've seen it? Yeah.

Oh, have you? I'm like, oh, that's it. Oh. Now I know. Now you know. Now I know. I've never seen it. I have to check it out.

Does seem like a strange cast, though. It does. Tom Barringer, Andy Griffith. Okay. We'll check it out. You're thinking Mayberry and the sniper mixed together with a little British humor. Hi, you guys. I'm listening to your Luca Magnano part one while I'm driving my UPS truck.

And just getting the route done, cracked me up in case there was question that would fall in her house, Matt, close the truck, contact your supervisor. Don't touch it. But I did have a fun story up in Woodfield, Ohio, a regular delivery address. I had a box at the end of my day that just sunk to high hell as something decomposing. And so I finally checked the address, and it was from them to them. Like the address that came from was the same one. So in my mind, I'm picking it to some mafia related to somebody's hand.

I did find that later. It was just a B shells, but they mailed from the B. It was awful. And if I wasn't an hour away from the building, no service, I may not touch it. But anyway, love your guys' podcast. I'm really enjoying this one. And I hope you guys have a good day. Stay safe, keep your intent picking.

Look at that, a fellow UPS, sir. Giving us the rundown on how to treat that hazmat. I've got to like it. Yeah, we definitely appreciate it. All right, we had mailbag, Gibbs. Brian Burleson sent you in a folding K-bar knife. Yeah, you did. It's actually a very cool knife.

Yeah. I'm jealous. You are. Probably going to have to order myself one now just because you have one. You keep picking it up and taking it away from me. I do. I'm just playing around with it a little bit. Yeah.

Also, just so you don't have it, I feel more safe when you don't have it. Well, you should. And I know you're worried that I'm going to hurt myself as well. Yeah. Yeah, I am. Lori Wheeler sent us 50 bucks and said, hey, want you guys to have a nice dinner. Yeah, and we will. And we will.

And we very much appreciate it. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode. of true crime all the time. So for Mike and give me, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.