True Crime All The Time - Brian Sugrim

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

In 1996, Brian Sugrim confessed to his then-girlfriend that he killed a man. In 2003, he told her he killed a woman, and even showed her where he buried the body. She waited years to tell the police out of fear for her and their children’s safety. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Brian Sugrim. This is a man who terrorized his wife and family for years, all the while holding some murderous secrets. It took years, but Brian's wife, Bernadette, mustered the courage to go to the police even though she was scared to death of what Brian might do.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 456 of the True Crime All The Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing pretty good. How about you? I'm having just an excellent week, man. Excellent, Ted, excellent. Yeah, just a lot of fun. Yeah.

To be honest with you. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Jennifer Davis. Hey, Jennifer. Dan Padilla. Hey, Padilla. Summer Dawson. Well, thanks, Summer.

Laura Auckland from the famous Auckland, New Zealand. Jennifer Melvin. What's that? Melvin. Be Alcorn. Hey, B. Jergin, Dries. Well, thanks, Juergen. Jenna Hewson.

Husson. And last but not least, Debbie Andrew. Oh, thanks, Debbie. And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Monica Holloway. Hey, Monica. Yeah, so we appreciate the new. Patreon support, a continued support. We also had a great PayPal donation from Henry

Urquila. And I don't know if I'm saying that correctly, but that's what I'm going with. I'm going to say it's Urqualia. Okay, I'm sure that's closer. Yeah. We have a brand new episode out right now on true crime all of the time unsolved. And it's a, it's a strange one for me in particular because we're talking about the 2010 murder of Roberta Miller and her home in New Hampshire. And my mom's married name is Roberta Miller. Yeah. So, you know, it is. It freaked me out as I was researching it and all of that.

But we'll get into all the details. So make sure you check that out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about Brian Sugram. In 1996, Brian confessed to his then-girlfriend that he killed a man. In 2003, he told her he killed a woman and even showed her where he buried the body. Now, she waited for years to tell the police, but it was out of fear for her and their children's safety.

Brian Sugram was born on February 24th, 1976, to parents Jerry and Janice Sugram. He is originally from Guy on. in an interview with the Kalamazoo Gazette. He claimed he was a permanent resident of the U.S. and was in the military before he was discharged in lieu of a court-martial. However, the Gazette reported he was undocumented. We're going to let you go instead of court-martialing you. Well, I think if you're Brian, that's a pretty good option or anybody else in that situation.

Brian's parents ran a house in Sullivan County, New York, called Loyalty Lodge, cared for patients with AIDS and other illnesses. Brian met his future wife, Bernadette Hyde, in the mid-90s. She was 16 at the time they met. Bernadette lived in Pennsylvania near the New York state border. She recalled that one summer she was going to her cousin's house to pick him up so they could go swimming. Brian just kind of walked out of the woods behind that house. His parents lived nearby. Kind of spooky? Well, it could be. but, you know, Bernadette said she was curious about him. It was the first time a guy was interested in her.

She noted that she also came from a family of six kids and had never had that kind of individual attention before. I've done something like that before. My second girlfriend, I just kind of walked out of the cornfield. Just scared. I scared her. Yeah. And she's like, what are you doing?

I was just hanging out with the other children. Of the corn? Yeah. I got you. The two started dating and fell in love. Brian visited Bernadette while she was waiting tables at a restaurant in Pennsylvania, often leaving her love notes during her shift. And I think this is something that, you know, so many people have experienced,

you know, kind of that, those beginning stages of love is a very exhilarating time. It really is. You know, the hormones are racing. the emotions are intense. The honeymoon face. The first time Bernadette ever saw Brian being violent was in 1995. He was living with her brothers in New York and caught them smoking marijuana. Brian forced her brothers into a car.

Then picked up Bernadette and her friend. Bernadette told the Kalamazoo Gazette. He elbowed my brother's nose with us in his car. And he had a knife to my own. other brother's throat. All right. Seems like a little tense moment. Yeah, I mean, Brian broke one brother's nose and both of the other brother's legs because

he thought they were bad influences on Bernadette. It seems over the top. You mean the reaction in comparison to the crime, quote unquote, as he viewed it. Yeah. Yeah. You're breaking one kid's nose and two of the other guy's leg. Bernardad said she always remembered seeing the look in Brian's eyes for the first time. They were blank, angry.

Nothing else matters right now. I don't feel anything else about anybody. It's all about me and what I'm doing. Kind of a creepy look, sounds like. Yeah, but I also think that experience would be a deal breaker for a lot of people. To see not only that type of violence, but perpetrated against. your own family members, your two brothers. I think it would be hard to recover from that.

And to continue on with the relationship. Yeah. Bernadette said that during their relationship, she saw this expression approximately every 10 days. That's scary. It is, because that's pretty often. But she was in love, and she wanted to help Brian become a better person.

The incident with her brothers was the first time she realized how much he needed her. She recounted his apology to the Gazette, saying he sits down on the front porch, I sit next to him, I end up on his lap because he's crying. He said, I didn't mean for it to get out of control, but the drugs are so bad for you. I'm a bad person. Can you love me anyway? Bernadette's brothers chose to press charges.

Brian fled to Canada to avoid the police. He sent Bernadette letters while he was away and brought up the top of the of marriage. She told him he needed to clean up his act first. I would say absolutely he does. Yeah, I mean, we all know what a big commitment marriage is. I don't think that's the one thing you want to have in the back of your mind as you're going into it. Brian eventually came back to the U.S. and turned himself into the police. Bernadette and her mother helped him get a lawyer, and he was sentenced to probation. I wonder how the brothers felt about this. Wait, my husband. My husband. I don't know how the brothers felt about this.

wait, my sister and my mom are helping this guy get an attorney. Well, and my sister's still with him, right? In a relationship after what he did to us, Bernadette's mother, Maria Hyde said, she was so in love with him and I knew no matter what we said, there was no tearing her away from him. I knew I had to wait for her to reach out to me when it came to Brian. So I helped her get a lawyer. My sons were not happy with that.

I'm sure they weren't. just like you said. One day in 1996, Brian shocked Bernadette by telling her, he did something really bad. He claimed he killed someone the night before, but he didn't give any further details at the time. Bernadette told the Gazette, part of me was in disbelief. With the first murder confession, at that point, I needed to be his savior. It's hard to remember my reaction, but I remember clearly him telling me that. But at that time, life was upside down anyway. So, I mean, we have to talk about this, right?

Your significant other comes to you and says, I did something really bad. I killed someone last night. All right? What are you doing with that information? Yeah, I'm sorry, but I have to go to the authorities. Yeah, I think a lot of people would say that. Now, and at the very least, you got to look for a way out of this relationship. Well, for sure, yeah.

And maybe both, right? How do I accomplish both of those things? How can I help this person, but also get myself far, far away from this? Brian became a suspect in the murder of 60-year-old Demetrius Carter, who was found dead on March 1st, 1996, in the basement of Brian's parents' house. Brian's father reported Carter missing two days earlier and told police he hadn't been seen since February 26. Carter had been living in the boarding home for about 14 months. a search party looked for Carter, his body was bound with duct tape and rolled in a rug. And my thought is, you know, pretty hard not to say homicide at that point.

Right. Based on those details. But it wasn't until later in the 2000s that Brian shared details with Bernadette. According to her, he actually pointed out where he did it, saying this was where I killed that guy. I shot him in the head, wrapped him up. his reason it staggered. But for the first time, he said it was meant to be his father. And then he said he knew this guy had AIDS, no life.

And it didn't matter if he lived or died. But she also added, I think he just wanted to kill somebody, which is scary. Well, I think anybody like that is scary, right? I mean, people snap in the heat of the moment, right? You walk in on your significant other, being unfaithful. with someone. Could somebody snap and do something that they regret? Yeah.

Of course. Happens all the time. But when you think about somebody just making the conscious decision that, you know, I'd really like to figure out or find out what it feels like to murder someone. That's a much different scenario. I'm not saying either one of them is good. Right. Brian tried to lead the police to believe his father committed the crime.

So son of the year there. Bernadette's mother, Maria, said Brian prepared their family for police interviews. He told them to tell police he was at an abandoned house in Jeffersonville, New York at the time of the murder. Brian harbored resentment towards his father. He only brought Bernadette to meet his father once before they married. It was a quick visit and Brian spoke privately with his father. When they returned to the car, Brian broke down. But Brian wasn't charged with the murder.

and the case went cold. So they might have thought it was him, but obviously they didn't have the evidence they needed to move forward with it. He and Bernadette moved into an apartment while she finished high school. They got married on June 22nd, 1997. Bernadette was 19 and Brian was 21. So, I mean, she stayed with him because she loved him. She stayed with him because she wanted to be his savior.

Which is not uncommon, right? There are people who feel as though in their heart, they can help someone. They can fix someone. And maybe for some there's even an attraction to that. I think there's a lot of people in relationships out there that are fixers. They think they can make the person they're in a relationship with a better person. Bernadad told the Kalamazoo Gazette that Brian was always controlling, but he can make the person. And he's a person. I don't know, they're in a relationship with a better person. Bernadadneadad told the Kalamazoo Gazette, that Brian was always controlling. But he gradually became verbally and emotionally abusive. It later escalated into physical abuse. Bernadette suspected Brian was cheating not long after they married. In 1999, Bernadette moved to Florida with a friend, but she didn't file for divorce. Brian followed her and attempted to reconcile. Bernad became pregnant. And about six months into that pregnancy, she realized it wasn't working out. Bernardad said, Brian must have been using drugs, but she didn't know at the time. Still, she hoped the baby would be their new beginning. Well, that's a rough thing the bank on, hoping this new baby will bring us back together.

Or closer together. But let's face it, it wouldn't be the first time that people have tried that. Oh, absolutely. I think it's happened. I know it's happened to people I know. they thought having a baby, having kids would make their marriage better. Maybe sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. All Bernadette ever wanted was to have a family and be a good wife to Brian.

Brian told her she rushed things and gotten pregnant on purpose to trap him. At one point, Bernadette threatened to leave if he was not more supportive. In response, Brian bought her a bus ticket and left it on the table. Bernadette took it and went to New York. He called her bluff. Yeah. Yeah, he did. I mean, I think you're also getting a real good picture of this guy.

Yeah. I mean, number one, he's very cold. Seems so. And we know, as Bernadette has said, you know, he was emotionally abusive, physically abusive, on top of being verbally abusive. Brian showed up a week before their daughter was born and told her he loved her and they could make it work. Bernadette went into labor on February 24, 2000. That day, they were visiting the woman who was Brian's unofficial foster mother. They showed up late for their visit, which upset her.

Then Brian became upset. He hit his foster mom, threw her on the floor, and as they were struggling, Bernadette's water broke. The foster mother kicked them. out of the house. I mean, there's a lot going on here, dude. There is. Wow.

Their daughter, Sky, was born the next day. I just think this relationship has a lot of negativity going on with it. Yeah, I'm sure it did. My question is, at what point did it go from some red flags to obviously knowing that it wasn't good to Bernadette becoming fearful to leave because she wasn't sure what he would do to her or, you know, the children they had. Most of their belongings were still in Florida, but family in Michigan offered to help. The couple moved to Michigan that year. They first lived with family in Battle Creek. Brian made a plan to burn down the house to get insurance money so he and

Bernadette could buy their own house. Okay. That's a good plan. Yeah. Just not for me, but, you know, maybe for some people. I mean, the burn down the house you're staying at so you can get money. Huh. But I think the big thing, Gibbs, is this was the first time.

Brian threatened to kill her and her family if she told anyone his plans. So I asked the question, right? At what point did the, I love you, I want to help you. I want to help you switch to, oh, I'd like to get out of here, but I'm too scared. Yeah. And I think we might be, we're probably getting into that territory. After the fire, they used the money to move into a house in Kalamazoo. No one was ever charged with arson, per the Gazette.

But money was always a struggle. Brian never kept a job long and changed his mind often about his career path. Bernadette paid the bills. she couldn't discuss her financial concerns with Brian because he would make it seem like their money problems were her fault. And, you know, is this not a trait that you see with a lot of guys like this? You know, they're not pulling their weight. They're not doing the things that they should be doing to take care of the family,

but they're somehow putting it all back on the other person who is actually working. and holding down a job, and I'm sure taking care of the baby and making dinner and keeping the house clean probably as well. And making her question her own self. Like, well, I thought I was doing everything right, but maybe, maybe I'm not. Yeah, is that the, is that the turn gas lighting? It is. Okay.

I thought it was, but I'd sometimes get confused on what that is. Yeah. In 2001, Brian's brother, Anil Christopher Sugar, was killed in a motorcycle accident. Brian was close with his brother and was deeply affected by his death. After the funeral, Bernad found piles of empty peppermint schnaps bottles that Brian tried to hide from her. She later learned he was using drugs because he was depressed, but he refused to see a psychologist. Now, I know you drink a lot of peppermint schnops. I'm a schnops guy.

It's one of your go-toes. Pepperment schnops would not be my first choice of drink. After their son was born, Brian became obsessed with having intelligent children. The family had some good times, which included bike rides and trips to museums, art exhibits and symphonies. But when the kids started grade school, Brian became what was described as, overwhelming. In 2003, Brian came to Bernadette with another disturbing confession. He woke her up on September 14th. She could tell that he had been up all night and he seemed pretty shaken up. He said that he had done something real bad. Bernadette recalled, I knew what he was going to say

before he said it because I had heard it before. He said he killed somebody. He told me he killed a prostitute and he stabbed her to death and that we needed to prepare and he needed to go away for a little while. He even showed her where he dumped the body and said he had burned the victim's clothing and a knife in their backyard fire pit. He also got rid of the family van. But he threatened to kill Bernadette if she ever told anyone about the murder and Bernadette believed he would do it. I'm just amazed that she's still with him, but I know why, right? she's afraid to leave him. Yeah, because I'm telling you what,

when, you know, she says, I believed he would do it. I don't know how you couldn't believe that this guy would do it. He's already confessed to multiple murders. He has shown her repeatedly how vicious he could be to her, right? Verbly, emotionally, physically.

She has to be scared. And now there's kids in the picture. Yeah, so she can't even worry about her, she has to worry about the kids. After his confession, Brian went to New York and stayed with Bernadette's sister for six weeks. Bernadette lied and told her family. They separated. At Brian's direction, she reported the van stolen to the insurance company.

Brian called Bernadette to ask if there were any news reports on the victim or if anyone came by the house looking for him. And it was through these news reports that Bernadette learned the victims now. On September 14, 2003, 39-year-old Linda K. Gibson was found in a secluded industrial area, east of Palmer Avenue in Kalamazoo's Edison neighborhood, not far from Brian's house. Her nude body was found under a board and other debris. Investigators believed her body was posed. Lab specialist Brett Applegrand later testified, per the Kalamazoo Gazette,

the legs were spayed out in almost a position where she'd be giving birth. Both sides of the upper thighs were heavily slashed, cut extremely deep. Once we removed the cement block, we could see her head had been smashed with that block and had been cut extremely deeply. This was rage. And, you know, by that description, it's a very gruesome crime scene. you think about slashing someone very deeply. Yeah.

But then also smashing their head with a like a cement cinder type block. That's nasty. It's a lot of anger. Investigators determined the murder occurred in a different location due to a lack of blood at the crime scene. And the fact that it appeared the body was cleaned. The medical examiner noted that two deep lacerations on Linda's inner thighs one of which was almost two inches deep, were carved while she was still a lot.

Linda also suffered stab wounds to the chest, blunt force trauma to the head, and her throat was cut. But indicators of rape were not present on her body. It was possible she was strangled, but unconfirmed because there was no hemorrhage or bleeding under the skin. But it's all brutal.

Oh, absolutely. Even more so now that I've read additional deep. details, right? Throat cut. More stab wounds. Obviously, we know about the blunt force trauma to the head. Seamen found in Linda's body came from a man the police identified as one of her clients. There were numerous suspects, including a pimp, but the murder remained unsolved. And Bernadette kept the secret. In fear of her life. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any way around it. Now, could she have made the decision to go to police. Yes, absolutely she could have, but I could also see how she would have been scared to death. I know what this guy is capable of. What chances am I really willing to take,

not only with my life, but with the children's lives. Yeah, because we know he can come unhinged. Well, I think it's easy for, you know, if we wanted to sit here and say, well, we would go to the police. But we don't that because I don't think you and I have ever been in that position. I know I haven't. You're right. I'm speaking for you because I don't think you've ever been in that position either. So we can't say what we would do. Yeah. I mean, he's conditioned her to be fearful. And for good reason. I also was thinking about, you know, this woman, Linda, she was a sex worker, murdered and the police find, you know, semen inside her body, that's another danger of visiting sex workers. You know, if you're a John, right, you could be linked to some type of crime.

Could be, yeah. I don't know how many people think about that, but according to a later affidavit, Brian told Bernadette, he killed Linda because she looked like her. How you take that? as in you want to kill me but you can't so you're finding a surrogate? Well, if you weren't scared by that point, you would be. Afterward. Yeah. Yeah. Bernadette said, I learned to not let it eat away at me.

I put it out of my mind. I couldn't survive if I thought about it all the time. And I get that because that's kind of something that you would think would just kind of eat away at you. You know, how do you compartmentalize? How do you share? shoved that down. And obviously she had to figure out a way. In 2005, the family moved into a new home in Kalamazoo where they remained until Brian's arrest. That year, Brian sent Bernadette to the Kalamazoo Sheriff's Office to get a license to purchase a handgun. Since he couldn't, she saw a poster

asking for information about the murder of Linda Gibson. Bernadette wanted to scream that she knew who did it, but she couldn't. And by this time, Bernadette and the children experienced both psychological and physical abuse often. Bernardad's daily goal was to avoid setting her husband off, but his temper was getting worse and worse. He broke household items in his fits of rage. After the family dog ran out of the yard, Brian shot the dog in the head in front of Bernadette and the kids. That's just messed up. One, you heard an innocent animal.

Your animal. Yeah, your pet. But then you did it in front of your kids. That's going to mess them up. Because you know they love that dog. I'm sure Bernadette loved that dog. Yeah, I don't know. You talk about being sadistic and torturous.

The first time Brian beat Bernadette was when she didn't answer the cell phone he'd recently purchased for her. he hit her repeatedly and told her she needed to live up to his standards. If she didn't, he would kill her and make it seem like an accident. Afterwards, he told her he loved her and they could move past it. And I think, you know, this is kind of a like a common theme with people like that. Sure it is. You know, I'm doing horrible things to you.

But then I'm apologizing and I'm trying to make it all better. yet I'm just going to turn around and do horrible things to you again. And it's just like a vicious cycle. But then I'm also going to say, I'll look past this and we'll move on. Like, is he trying to blame it on her? Like, this is your fault. I'm going to look past it and we'll move on because I want to stay with you. Yeah, it's very narcissistic, right?

To me. Yeah. Brian once woke, Bernadette up by pointing a shotgun at her head. He brought her to the dining room and waved the gun around while ranting about all the things she wasn't doing right. Brian

also strictly controlled the family's daily life. He required Bernadette and the kids to carry a knife for self-defense. He trained in martial arts and he kept knives, swords, and guns in the home. Scary. What was said, every

Monday, he made his family practiced kickboxing for about three hours. And he didn't care that he hit Bernadette hard enough to leave bruises. He even made the kids fight each other and threatened to punch them if they took it too easy on each other. It kind of reminds me of the accountant. I was thinking the exact same thing. Yeah. The father in that was pretty rough on the boys. Yeah, yeah, he was. And they both turned out to be assassins, not to give the movie away, but... I mean, most families have like movie Monday.

Game night. Game night. Taco Tuesday. But not kickboxing Monday. Well, this is every night, three hours of kickboxing? It's a lot of kickboxing going on on the Mondays. And it sounds like, you know, he's kickboxing Bernadette and beating the, you know what, out of her and then having the kids fight each other.

Bernadette and the kids learned how to appease Brian the best they could. They kept to a strict routine. Bernad took the kids to school before Brian woke up because he got irritated by noise. She scheduled parent conferences for times he couldn't attend. The kids had to complete lessons in their notebooks every morning. Bernadette always checked them because if the kids made an error on something they'd covered before, they would get a beating. Very strict dad.

Bernadette said that Brian would whip the kids with about two or three times. But when they started to pull away, he kept going. If they hid behind her, she would get whipped too. If she intervened, Brian hit harder. Wow. So this guy is a POS of the highest order. He is. I mean, he is just a nasty, nasty person to his wife and kids.

This is aside from the fact that he has told her he's murdered two people. Just physically abusive. According to Bernadette, he called us pieces of shit, sluts, bastards. He told us, in this moment, I hate you. He had no qualms about saying that. And afterwards, he'd say, I love you. But that doesn't mean, I don't mean what I said. I did hate you.

What he said verbally hurt more than the hitting. There's the verbal abuse, right? and that mentally can really mess people up. Oh, and in the back and forth. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I love you. You're a piece of, you know what, but I love you and we'll get past the things that you are doing. Yeah. Because I'm perfect.

Yeah, exactly. I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm trying to live with the mistakes you're making. In October 2009, Bernadette was picking up Brian's family from the airport when she had a heart attack. She was clinically dead for seven minutes and was on a breathing machine for four days. She had never had heart problems before and believes it was caused by stress. Suppression didn't get in trouble for having a heart attack. Well, I mean, let's talk about stress.

You know, as we're going through these details, I can only imagine her stress level. You know, we use that term walking on eggshell. Right. This is walking on eggshells. You do not know when this man is going to fly into a rage. And I would imagine that would be about as stressful as it gets. And it's no way to live. Terrible way to live.

While she was in the hospital, Brian's sister left a letter in her dresser, begging her to leave him. She never saw Brian's sister, mother, or brother again. So that's interesting, right? Brian's sister obviously has some inkling of what's going on because she's saying, hey, you need to leave my brother. Yeah, he's bad news for you. But this marked a turning point for Bernadette.

She asked Brian for divorce. He agreed to think about it and said she could leave, but the kids had to stay with him. Bernadad didn't want to leave them. Brian also told her that if she laughed, he would kill her. and it would mess up the legacy for the children. I mean, you want to talk about a no-win situation. You're making the move to leave.

Right. But he is saying, okay, you can leave, but the kids can't go. At the same time, he's also saying that if she does leave, I'll kill you. So that's not really,

yeah, you can leave. Yeah, he's just trying to put more fear into her. And there's no way she's going to leave the kids behind and leave them alone with this guy. In the spring of 2011, Bernadette gave a sealed letter to a friend so that if she died, someone would know Brian had threatened her, had killed before, had a fake identity, and was

a danger to the kids. Her friend never opened the letter. Bernadette said she started sleeping with a loaded gun under her pillow. Their daughter, Sky, asked that they could leave Brian, but she told her he was sick and needed then. Bernardette also told Sky that if she ever felt like they were in danger, she needed to run and get help. And my other thought, Gibbs, is, you know, as these kids get older, they're seeing more and more. Their understanding has to be greater of how wrong all of this stuff really is to the point where, you know, Sky is saying, hey, you need to get out of here. Yeah. Sky did run for help on May 16, 2011.

Bernadette came home from work and found Brian and their son doing martial arts training, like they always did on Mondays. She saw that her daughter was strapped to the family dog's back with a belt. Sky said Brian was punishing her because she couldn't get the family dog to submit to her. What is wrong with this guy? Well, according to Bernadette, he beat Sky. with a karate stick across the back. He said, you're going to submit the dog,

you're going to submit the effing dog, or I'm going to hit you. Brian hit their daughter 75 to 100 times with the karate stick, and at one point, dragged her into the garage and slammed her against the wall. You know, this karate stick, I'm assuming it's like a bow.

Yeah, or a cubiton. I mean, there's all kinds of different names for some of these things. Up to 100 times. Are you kidding me? Well, I can see it in your face. You want to be left alone in a room with this guy for 20 minutes. Yeah. Because this is just horrible what he's doing to his family.

But Sky escaped and called 911. Deputies arrived and arrested Brian. Bernadette told a responding officer. If you don't take him into custody, he will kill us all before the night is through. And that night, while at the hospital with her daughter, Bernadette told the police about Brian's past confessions, authority started an investigation and shared Bernadette's statement with New York authorities. Police searched the family's former home on May 31st, 2011.

Officers removed items from the old fire pit, including buttons, a watch, and a burned knife. They also took a brick, a rope, and a wallboard from the garage with, the stain on it. Luckily, they could still find these things. Yeah, well, you know, let's face it, burning stuff in a pit or a barrel or whatever doesn't completely always get rid of it. Now, it is still kind of amazing that it's still there, right? Somebody didn't scoop it up, throw it away. Somebody later on who bought the house. In June, police sought warrants to obtain Brian's student records from Western Michigan University and records from the university bookstore and library. Police sought similar records for Brian and his deceased brother Anil from

Kalamazoo Valley Community College. Brian attended both schools between 2003 and 2011 and had assumed his brother's identity. So essentially there's nothing that this guy is, you know, not willing to do. On July 11, 2011, Brian was sentenced to 56 months to 10 years in prison. after pleading no contest to assault with intent to do great bodily harm, less than murder for attacking his daughter. Charges of felonious assault, child abuse, and domestic violence were dismissed. In that same day, he was arraigned on one count of first-degree murder. Well, I guess it's good, right?

The first case, I mean, it's less than five years, but it gets him locked up where they can keep an eye on them. Yeah, I mean, it's essentially what, five to ten years is what he got. I think it could have been a lot more if the, you know, felonious assault, child abuse, domestic violence charges weren't dismissed. But maybe that was needed to get him to plead guilty and not fight it. And they may have also thought, well, we're going after this bigger, you know, charge anyway. Right. At a pretrial hearing in August.

Bernadette testified that Brian admitted he killed the man in the mid-90s in his parents' home. He admitted to killing Linda Gibson in 2003, but she never came forward because she feared he would kill her, her family, and their kids. At one point, the prosecutor asked Bernadette why Brian would want to kill her. She answered, because I reminded him of stupidity. But Bernadette testified that Brian told her he couldn't kill her, because he needed me to raise the children. So it's kind of going back to this idea that he really did want to kill her,

but felt as though he couldn't. So he found another woman to take his anger out that he had, you know, for his wife. Yeah. Substitute. At the hearing, Bernadette testified that Brian said he killed Linda and the family. family van. Before he dumped her body, her testimony confirmed authorities belief that the murder occurred elsewhere. Brian cleaned the van with bleach and had a friend crushed the vehicle. It was never found. Brian's attorney asked Bernadette why she didn't contact the police while Brian was

in New York. In the fall of 2003, Bernadette said, I was afraid he would hurt me, my children or my family. He was in New York, where all my family lives, and he has told him. told me he would kill them. Bernadette testified about the May 16th, 2011 incident and said, she finally talked to the police because I knew if he got out, he would hurt us and he would kill us all of us. And, you know, I think it's very tough. I know a defense attorney has to do it. But, you know, to question this woman who has been the recipient of just, you know, this awful,

awful behavior like we detailed out right verbal emotional physical abuse the kids were also recipients of that as well yeah you you're going to have to ask the question but i think a lot of people listening will sympathize with this woman what she went through and how scared she probably was that if she did go to the police he would make good on all his threats bernadette also spoke about the letter she gave to a friend, weeks before the May incident. It said in part, my husband, Brian Sugar, has threatened my life. If he succeeds, he would make it look like an accident or suicide. I'm telling you this because my children are not safe with him. My children fear him and say and do anything to keep him happy. I have no choice but to stay and try to make the best

of it. In August 2011, Arthur Hawker, Chief of Patrol for the Sullivan County Sheriff's Office in New York, said police exhausted leads in the Demetrius Carter murder case in the investigation had not been active until after Brian was arrested. Hawker declined to say if Brian was the suspect or if Brian was previously a person of interest but did say Brian, his parents and other men in the home were interviewed. In an affidavit for a search warrant, a senior investigator with the New York State Police told Kalamazoo detective Greg Cordes that

Brian was the prime suspect in the Carter case and the police found he had purchased books on how to kill people. On how to kill people. Wow. I guess you can get a book on almost anything, so...

You can. It's kind of hard to hide it though if you go to the library and check one out. Or if you buy it on Amazon or, you know, some type of website, probably not that

hard for police to go back and and dig that up. At one point, Brian was supposed to take a polygraph, but declined after purchasing a book on how to pass a polygraph. So I don't know if he was an avid reader, but he obviously read some books that had to do with, with some of the things he was dealing with, you know,

how to murder people, how to pass a polygraph. Brian did a prison interview with the Kalamazoo Gazette in November 2011, where he admitted he was one of the last people to see Linda Gibson a lot. He also said he was fully aware of what he faced, but was confident he'd be acquitted. He said he purchased drugs from Linda in the early hours of September 14, 2003. At the time, he knew her as candy. He smoked meth the night before and stayed up all night practicing kickboxing and. in his garage. I don't know if that's a common thing, Gibbs, to smoke meth and then, you know,

get your kickboxing practice in. Maybe it is. I don't know. I've never tried meth. I'm not planning on it. It's probably good that you don't. Yeah. I do have an addictive personality. So I do try to stay away from certain things. Maybe, you know, for him, it made him want to do something. and that was the kickboxing. He said he left home before 6 a.m. and drove around eventually spotting Linda on Stockbridge Avenue. She got into his van and they talked about whether she could hook him up. He drove her to the corner of Reed and March Street.

She got out and told him to meet her near Tower Automotive on Palmer Avenue. He was sitting in his van smoking and drinking beer. When Linda walked up with a man, she referred to as deep. or tea. Linda and the man got into his van. He and Linda began taking hits off her crack pipe as the drugs took effect. The man who showed

up with Linda pulled out a gun and put it to his head. This scared Linda and she got out of the van and began walking towards the railroad tracks. The man told Brian he got lucky. Then got out of the van and began following Linda. He never saw

either of them again. He drove around and then went home. Okay. So, you know, here again, a story that a defendant, you know, has to craft. Yeah, I was with Linda, but she brought somebody else along. This guy pulled a gun. Linda hopped out of the van and this guy went after her. He didn't harm me. He went after Linda. Yeah, just deflect this whole thing over to his other mystery guy. And then after Linda's body was found, Brian was afraid the police would identify him as a suspect. just like they did in New York.

He explained his thoughts at the time by saying, don't bring yourself forward because they will stop with you. I don't trust the cops. I knew exactly where that investigation would stop, and it would stop at me. Instead, according to Brian, he and Bernadette made a plan for him to leave town. He took the van to New York.

He stayed for a week and returned home. Bernadette kept track of the case through the news reports, but he didn't read them. him because he didn't want to know the specifics of how Linda died. Brian explained, in me, it would have brought it too close. I would have felt a personal responsibility. I feel bad for the way it all happened. I wish he hadn't died, but I didn't kill her.

He also said he had no confirmation of the identity of the woman found dead, but he assumed it was Linda because he had seen her near that location. And as I said before, right, he said he didn't know her real name until 2000. But to me, you know, this guy saying, well, I didn't know, I didn't want to know, right? The specifics of how she died. That would have brought it home. I would have felt personally responsible. You were personally responsible.

That's why you would have felt that way. Well, you didn't need the specifics because you already knew them. That's part of it. But, you know, it's just, it's just a bunch of horse dovers. That's, that's all it is. Horse what? Horse dovers. Oh, okay.

Haven't been around any horse dovers for a while? Not that you know of. Well, that's true. Brian briefly returned to Kalamazoo so he could get rid of the van. He returned to New York and stayed until October 2003. He declined to elaborate on what happened to the van, only telling the Gazette the van no longer exists. When asked why he went to such lengths to leave town and get rid of the van,

Brian said he acted out of fear. after what he went through in New York. When asked if he did anything with Linda in his van, other than drugs, he declined to comment, but said she was a sex worker. Okay. Kind of just leaving that open for the imagination? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think a lot of times when people decline to comment,

you can read between the lines. But it's also, you know, this whole thing of, you know, why did you need to clean the van? Why did you need to crush the van and literally get rid of its existence? Right. Because you were fearful the police were going to pin it on you, or you knew, most likely, that there was probably DNA in there. Yeah, evidence.

Brian claimed that he returned home in October 2003. He stopped drinking and using drugs and began pursuing a master's degree. He was working at Western Michigan University as an airplane McKee. He was arrested. So he's got to throw some good stuff in there, right? Hey, I stopped drinking. I stopped using drugs. I'm going after my master's degree.

I've got a job. I'm a better man. I'm a model citizen. I mean, that's what he wants the jury to believe, right? He denied telling his wife that he killed Lyndon and denied abusing his family other than the May 2011 incident. He claimed he recalled very little, but didn't deny that it happened. He was on medication from no surgery. In pain medicine, Bernadette gave him.

Brian said it happened. We got there. I'm just not exactly sure how. I thought I had spanked her. So again, who is he blaming for this whole thing? Bernadette. Sure. Yeah.

Bernadette gave me this pain medicine. And then after that, I don't remember anything. I thought I spanked her. I didn't realize that I hit her a hundred times with the karate stick. And it never fails to amaze me how, you know, people's memories are fuzzy when it comes to, you know, certain things. But in others, they're crystal clear. You know, when he's telling the story of why he couldn't have killed, Linda, he's crystal clear, right, on all the things. But when it comes to this 2011 incident, he's very fuzzy. And he's very fuzzy. And he's, he's,

He's also blaming the bulk of it on Bernadette. He also claimed that Bernadette had a medical incident in 2009 that affected her brain and caused her to have what he called blended memories. He said, my wife has adopted an entirely altered reality. She's given three different versions of what happened. I would tell her she's not telling the truth. He claimed he and Bernadette rarely argued before the incident, but her condition strain their relationship and his relationship with the children.

So he is really making himself out to be the good guy. He's making Bernadette out to be, you know, a person who doesn't really know what reality is. Brian's trial started on February 8th, 2012. Prosecutor Stuart Fenton told the jury that Brian killed Linda Gibson and his family van. Understanding why required insight into. his mind. Felton said the defendant thinks extremely highly of himself. He doesn't tolerate stupidity. He doesn't suffer fools. In his own words, he said, evil cannot thrive without stupidity. His form of evil is counting on your stupidity. Fenton also described Bernadette's testimony as 100%

credible. That's a lot of confidence. Yeah, I mean, 100% is pretty high. Defense attorney Robert champion emphasized that Bernadette had repeated opportunities to go to police and never did. And on the surface of that statement, it is true, right? I'm sure she did have many opportunities to go. But I think you also have to factor in the fear for her safety, the fear for, you know, the safety of her children. Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety Assistant Chief Kari Ann Thomas testified that Linda's body was posed. for a shocking effect. Authorities also questioned the lack of blood at the crime scene. Mark Bush, a mechanic and former security guard at Parker A-BACS near the Palmer Avenue

crime scene, provided blurry images of vehicles that passed the site on September 13th. He identified more than one image as a van or SUV. Eddie Schock, who previously owned an asphalt plant near the site, saw a van going near the area where Linda was found, around 8 a.m. on September 14th, then heading in the opposite direction less than a half hour later. Brandy Davis, a former sex worker who went by the name Candy, testified that she and Linda were with clients earlier in the night before getting into Brian's van on September 14, 2003. Brian was a regular client on the street.

Brian was driving and Linda was in the passenger seat. Davis wasn't sure when the conversation went sour, but she knew it happened. when they were parked behind factories in the Edison neighborhood. Davis testified per the Gazette, we thought we were making more money. I saw my friend get out and the next thing I know, she was laying on the ground. I left her there fighting with him and it's the last time I saw Linda.

I saw a silver, shiny object when he reached in his back pocket. Davis said she was swinging and fighting and I got out and opened the side of the van and took off running and left her there for. fighting him. When I turned around, he was on top of her. He's the last person I saw Alinda alive with. Davis, though, admitted to lying to the police about the Gibson case multiple times. She acknowledged that in one interview, she said the killer was her ex because she wanted him out of her life. When asked if she fell guilty, she said, I was a prostitute. The only thing I cared about was my next fix. I was using drugs all day, every day. I ran out on

my best friend. According to Davis, Linda was wearing blue gap shorts and a wristwatch the night she was killed. Lead investigator Greg Cordes testified that when the police searched the fire pit in the former family home, they found a small watch face, buckles, and gap buttons, as well as the remnants of a night. When asked whether Davis admitted to him that she was there the night of the murder, he said he didn't ask. She didn't tell me she saw the murder and she didn't deny it. My purpose was to see if she knew Sue room and if she had information. So, you know, I think it's pretty damning, right? It puts Linda in the van with Brian.

Now, does this woman lose some credibility because she was caught lying, caught trying to blame her ex-boyfriend because she wanted him out of her life? Yeah, probably so. I think anytime you're caught lying, you lose credibility. Yeah, I don't know how you can't. But I also get the sense that she feels. very remorseful that, you know, she left her friend there fighting with this guy and her friend later ended up dead. Cordes testified that Bernadad gave him access to Brian's safe. He found

documents showing that Brian stole his brother Anil Christopher Sugram's identity. He had a social security card in Anil's name, but with Brian's photo on it, which was signed in 2011. Brian had also opened and used a bank account in his brother's name and was enrolled in the Kalamazoo Valley Community College. And why would he do this, Gibbs? I mean, people who have nothing to hide, who have done nothing wrong, don't assume their brother's identity. No, because you wouldn't have to. There'd be no need to. Obviously, there was a need to in his mind. The escape plan. Cordes testified. that he read the book,

Kill Without Joy, the complete How to Kill Book. After he found evidence, Brian had read it. According to Cordes, the book really concentrates on attempting to get away with it. And I saw things in that book

that are consistent with this case. It talked about the proper way to stab and kill people in the quickest way. The types of cuts found on Linda's body, especially a cut behind her knee, were mentioned in the book. Man, this guy is,

reading the wrong books. That's for sure. Or at the very least, he is leaving a trail of evidence that he either bought or read these books. Bernadette testified about Brian's two confessions.

The years of abuse she suffered and read letters Brian sent to her from prison. One letter said, Bernadette, I will always love you. Don't be so foolish as to abandon everything. Even the good things, because you were afraid in the moment,

one day you'll realize you could have done things differently and experienced a different future. You were the greatest gift God put in our lives. Another letter said, be aware you don't have to testify against your spouse. I'm afraid of all of the skeletons that could come tumbling from our closet if you are cross-examined by an attorney.

He asked her to think about the memories their children would have of them when they were gone and said to kids, do not deserve to bear the cost of our mistakes. And I like to use the word our there. Yeah. He, I mean, this man, time and time again, put most, if not all of the blame somehow on her. Yeah, there's no way he's going to own up to it all by himself.

He seems to be owning up to very little. Bernadette read a third letter that said, you're being used. you're getting effed from so many different directions and you know it. I didn't kill Linda Gibson and nothing can bring her back. If I hadn't towards the van, they would have pinned the murder on me for sure. Please retract the lies you told of me in our history. These people are going to try to kill me and ruin my reputation forever. If I didn't burn the van, but the only reason that would be true is because her DNA would be in there.

and something really bad happened inside that vein. Yeah, but he's trying to do what he always does and he's trying to blame her, make her feel bad, put it on her. How can you do this to me? Yeah, it's not just deflecting, right? A lot of people deflect. This is deflect and then also blame her for everything. I also like the line that these people are going to try to ruin my reputation.

Yeah. What reputation do you have? You don't have a good one. It's in the dumper. I mean, nobody likes you. Your own family's scared to death of you. The jury also heard from Brian's daughter, Sky, who said, we had to do everything perfect, and we were always scared. We had to keep him happy, and we did whatever we had to, to do that. He would yell, curse, and say rude names to me and my mother. It varied on the situation. Little things would displease him, like not doing a lesson on Rose.

Zeta Stone or the dishes not being washed. She testified about the May 2011 incident as well as witnessing two of their dogs being shot in the head, her father shaving her head because of lice, and being punished for not keeping her brother out of trouble. Sky also testified he would say that if there is ever a problem and someone needed to be killed, he would do that. He didn't tell us about Linda Gibson or Demetrius, the man murdered in New York, he didn't tell us that he has killed people. And obviously, you have to feel for this girl. Sure you do. And her brother as well, I mean, I think they both went through terrible, horrible things.

I mean, their dad's a monster. And they lived through it. Tamara Hyde testified that she and her family lived with the Sugrams more than once. And at Bernadette's request, moved back in when Brian went to New York. in the fall of 2003. The couple claimed they were having marital problems. After Brian returned from Michigan, Tamara said they had a flag system in which he asked her to lower the flag in the front yard if someone such as a police officer was looking for him.

Okay. You know, people who haven't done anything wrong don't need a flag system or an alert system. But we had that one alert system where you put. something in the window to alert me. I have an alert system where my wife alerts me if you get too close to the house on a day you're not supposed to be here. But that's for a totally different reason. I mean, he just,

he makes himself look guilty with all of these different, you know, things he did. She testified that Brian often gave his family direction and what they did enacted differently when they were in his presence, making sure he would find it. fit. The kids would act less like children and more like adults, and Bernadette would end mid-conversation when he was around if she didn't think he'd approve it. And she even had to worry about the conversations. Yeah, I think it just further sheds light on, you know, what kind of situation she was living in, the kids were living in. Again, going back to that walking on eggshells. Bernadette's cousin, Michael Hyde, testified that Brian threw his pocket.

pocket knife in the backyard fire pit in October 2003. In letters, Brian sent him from jail. Brian claimed the knife police found in the fire pit belonged to hide. So he's not above throwing anybody else under the bus. Neighbor and friend Tammy Hibner recalled Brian breaking down during a private conversation with her and her ex-boyfriend in 2004. He just switched from gleeful to man, I'm so screwed up. He started crying and saying it. it should have been him to die rather than his brother. He said, I'm the evil one. He's the good one.

I've done awful things. Well, yeah, you have. Yeah. I mean, it's not specific, but who says that kind of stuff? The defense didn't call any witnesses and Brian didn't testify. And when, you know, the defense doesn't call witnesses, I'm always kind of like, well, who are they going to call? This guy has nobody left.

Yeah, there's nobody that likes him. there's nobody that's going to say good things about him. So, I mean, I think as far as character witnesses, you're probably S. You certainly don't want to put him up on the stand. No, because he's just going to tell a bunch of lies and a smart prosecutor is probably going to catch him. Yeah. In closing arguments, prosecutor Stuart Finn asked the jury, why would he get rid of the van

if he didn't kill Linda? And if you believe his preposterous interview with the Gazette, they did drugs in the van not murder, there would be no physical evidence of a murder there. And I think that's kind of what we were talking about, right? Just getting rid of the van thing to me is so damning because, you know, as he said, well, they were going to pin it on me. Well, how can they pin it on you if there's nothing in the van that proves anything bad happened? Yeah.

The reason you get rid of the van is so they can't find the things that they could use against you. Fenton reminded the jury they had enough evidence to convict Brian based on the testimony of his wife. Fenton also alluded to transcripts of interviews with investigators during which Brian said that if he were a juror, he'd find himself guilty. Okay, not a great thing for a defendant to say. No, it's not how you want to put that out there. Defense attorney Robert Champion said almost every piece of evidence was either disputable or irrelevant, including the knife and clothing remnants buried in the old fire pit, Champion asked the jury to be wary of Bernadette's story because she had years to tell the police what she knew and didn't. Champion said all she had to do

if she was so afraid when he left for New York in 2003 was go to police. Not different than what she did. She had a home. She had a phone. She worked. She knew how to use a weapon. She was trained in martial She took vacations by herself. She asked for a divorce. She left him several times and said she acknowledged there were no physical abuse until after the children were abused. She wanted Brian out of her life. She can get away and not be charged with anything from insurance fraud to child abuse.

Again, I understand why the defense attorney is saying those things. Sure. But to me, it's just a, it's too much of a simple. ified arguments when in reality I think it's much more complex just because she went on vacations by herself just because she left him at times doesn't mean she wasn't scared that he was going to kill her and the children oh that's very true on february 15th 2012 brian sugram was convicted of first-degree murder in march 2012 new york authority said bernadet could play a major role in getting Brian charged with the murder of Demetrius Carter,

were it not for state law that barred her from testifying against her husband? Brian could only be charged if they have enough evidence without her testimony. It was reiterated that Brian was the main suspect in the murder. And I don't know how he couldn't have been, right? This guy is found rolled up in a carpet with his mouth duct taped inside the family home. Yeah. You only really points to one person. Well, especially after you find all this stuff out about him, on April 9th, 2012,

Brian was sentenced to life in prison. During his sentencing hearing, Brian told the court that Bernadette was mentally incapable of telling the truth and maintained his innocence. Well, this is all according to him. Oh, yeah. I mean, what else is he going to say? Yeah. As usual, he's putting it all back on her, right?

He's putting the blame on her. He said, per the Gazette, they didn't take it. tell you she is brain damaged. I heard the words of Linda Gibson's family. I really want to tell you guys, I feel you. I understand your pain and I hear your words, but the anger and the hatred that you have, please hold on to that a little bit longer. It's not mine to bear. You were lied to and robbed of justice by the very dogs that are ordered to protect you. Brian then accused specific officers and detectives of falsifying information and accused the judge. judge of making public statements against him.

You know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, to me, you know, Brian Sugram is kind of the classic narcissists. Oh, yeah. And I do feel like he's, he's a master manipulator. Gaslighter. Yeah. You can use all those different terms. I think he put his family through hell for many years.

I think he had Bernadette to the point where. she was scared for her life, the kids' lives. I also think he was a man who craved order and control. I agree. And especially control over other individuals. At any cost. Yeah. I mean, he was just an abusive piece of shit.

I would agree with that statement. I think most people listening would as well. But Brian remains in. incarcerated in Michigan. For years, you know, he controlled his family with psychological and physical abuse. And like I said, right, Bernadette and the kids lived in fear of him. So much so that she didn't go to the police on two different occasions when he confessed a murder. After Brian's daughter bravely escaped and called for help, Bernadette knew telling the truth would keep Brian away forever. Yeah. Because, you know, let's face it, you can talk about.

about whether she was right or wrong, you know, for not going to the police, we have heard it from victims time and time again, right? One of the reasons why they didn't or they don't go to the police is because they're not confident something is going to be done. And if nothing is done to this person, what have you just caused? Right. You've caused the situation to probably escalate. It's not going to get better.

it's going to get worse because you just went to the police. And if this person's not locked up, they're probably coming back after you. Well, I just hope that burden debt and the kids are healing. And I hope that he is somebody's personal puppet in prison. Yeah, personal puppet is very descriptive. Yes. Kind of gives new meaning to that, you know, using the whole fist there, Doc. I wouldn't go to go there, but you're going to go there, but you're not going to go there,

But you did. I did. I did. Again, I don't feel for these people. I don't either. So as much as you and I would never joke about victims. Right. I have no problem joking about these types of individuals because what they did was horrible.

Sure. So, you know, if something happens to them in prison, it's okay. I'll sleep well tonight. It's not going to affect me. He was a very bad person. Yeah, to his core. Yeah. I truly believe that.

But that's it for our episode on Brian Sugram. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out? It's here. Hey, you guys, I was just listening to the Tiffany Moyer episode. And I thought you'd like to know that Apodaca is a Hispanic last name. I don't guess anybody ever pointed that out to the white supremacist, but does show you the irony of racial bias. because the people who engage in that are just so stupid.

All of them, I hope Mr. Apadacca is getting what he deserves. Although, I don't know. Sounds like Machete Bob was kind of a bad guy too. Who knows? Very confusing. All of it. Take safe and keep your own time picking. All right.

Thanks for the voicemail. No, I was not aware that that was a Hispanic last name. Now you know. And now I know. Not the first nor the last time that somebody's going to say. I hope he gets what he deserves in prison. But I do think that was a very confusing case because you had victims who were not angels. Right.

And so that always makes a case a little different. It does. But in the end, the right people got what they deserved. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, do they deserve more than what they got? Yeah, but. As is normally the case.

Yeah. All right, we had nothing in the mailbag this week. So that's it, buddy. for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike, and give me. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.