True Crime All The Time - BTK Dennis Rader Part 1

Episode Date: December 5, 2016

Dennis Rader, better known by BTK (for Bind, Torture, Kill) terrorized Wichita Kansas for nearly thirty years. He committed 10 murders in total between 1974 and 1991 but would elude the police for many years after that. He was a vicious psychopath and sexual sadist. He trolled for victims every day and stalked what he called his "projects". This is episode 1 of a multi-part episode on BTK. There is so much to cover that we just couldn't fit into one episode. Please visit the show's website at http://truecrimeallthetime.com. Click through our Amazon banner for all of your Amazon shopping this holiday season. They will give some love back to the show and it won't cost you any extra on your purchases. Check out the contact section of the website for all of the ways to follow the show on social media (Facebook, Twitter, Instragram, and Tumblr). Please subscribe to the show, rate, review, and tell a friend! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Well, if you're hearing that sound, you know what time it is. It's true crime all the time, podcast time. Welcome to episode three. As always, I'm your host, Mike Ferguson. Today I've got Mike Gibson, aka Gibby, back with me again. I think I'm pretty close to talking Gibby into being a regular co-host with me. What do you think? Isn't that right, Gibby?

Yeah, I think it's coming around. You know, this is a grotesque subject matter sometimes. so your stomach's a little better than mine. Right, but you're hanging in. You're hanging in with me. Yeah, I'm hanging. So it's all good. It's exciting.

Yeah, it definitely is. Well, speaking of exciting, yeah, I'm looking at the charts. We just started this last Sunday. The numbers are coming in every day. I'm just blown away. The show's got two episodes under its belt. Download numbers are off the charts. Way higher than I ever expected.

when I started this, never thought we'd get to the numbers that were at this quickly. So I definitely want to thank all the people that are supporting us right now who've downloaded the show. I would ask that those of you that like it, please subscribe to the show, rate, review. We don't have as many ratings or reviews as the numbers suggest that we should have. We've got a ton of downloads. but I don't think a lot of people take the time to rate and review. And I'll be honest, I haven't always done that on all the podcasts that I listen to.

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This podcast is free. It will always be free, but donations help keep the wheels turning for sure. Click on the contact page of the website. That's where you can find out how to follow the show on. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. We just added a Tumblr page. I didn't even know what Tumblr was, to be honest with you. but we now have a Tumblr page. The other thing you can do is please share these pages with your friends who like true crime or that you think may like the podcast like you do. One important point I want to make is if you're looking at that contact page of the website,

I've added a voicemail line for anyone that wants to call in. You can call in just to say you like the show. You can give ideas for future shows or let me know if you're interested in maybe guest hosting down the road. If you do call in, please state whether or not you want your clip played. Actually, if you don't want your clip played on a future episode, state that. Well, that's enough of the housekeeping, as they call it. Really excited to get into this show. You know, this is the first two episodes we did were lesser known.

I would say, lesser known cases. Today, today's episode is one that I'm calling a big timer. Little play on our podcast name, but we're going to do some big timers from time to time. But we're going to continue to do the lesser knowns as well. So if that's what you're interested in, please don't worry. We're going to do plenty of those. But today's a big timer day. and it's Dennis Raider, also known as BTK.

All true crime fans know who Dennis Raider is and probably know a lot of his background, but he's, you know, very interesting subject to tackle, and I think that, you know, it's one of the reasons why I'm really excited about this episode. Dennis Raider committed his first murders in 1974. he would go on to kill 10 people in total between the years of 74 and 91. So while his total body count doesn't compare to some of the other serial killers who racked up large, large numbers,

I guess the reason why I would consider him a big timer is because he evaded law enforcement for nearly 30 years. So in that way, you know, he also taunted the police with letters. You know, I won't say exactly like Zodiac, but somewhat in the same vein as Zodiac. And he interacted with the media and police and we'll get into that, you know, down the road. But another interesting thing about Dennis Rader is that he committed all of his murders in one particular area of Kansas. So it's Sedgwick County, basically Wichita. He terrorized the citizens of that county in Wichita for 30 years, really almost up until the day he was apprehended. I guess last but not least, another reason why I consider him a big timer is the way that he was ultimately identified and captured.

and that was just so bizarre that probably if you saw it in a movie, you would laugh. You would think that it was unbelievable. Gibby, I know I've done a lot of talking. Well, I was going to say I'd put him in that same box additionally because if you watched any of his confessions and jailhouse interviews, you know, he's so cold and calculated, you know, for a mastermind, fantasy.

serial killer type, you know, he's just, just his personality throws him in that batch. Yeah, I would say psychopath, right? Definitely you would have to say that. Oh, yeah. The other thing that really, I guess, jumps out at me about Dennis Rader is, I don't want to say his looks or the way he looks, but, I mean, to me, he looks like somebody that should be doing your taxes. If I see Dennis Raider walking down the street, I'm not crossing to the other side. Now, there are pictures that you'll see on the internet where he looks scary as shit, right? Right, right. But most of his pictures, either from his days as a ADT guy or his days as a code enforcer or figure at the church he worked at, right? I mean, you look at those pictures and it's somebody

that could sit right next to you at the local restaurant or whatever. and you would have no issues sitting there talking with him. Yeah, I mean, he could be your neighbor, my neighbor. Your boss. Yeah. No doubt about it. So there's just, there's a lot of layers to Dennis Rader. And we're going to try to get into as many as we can.

I will say that because there's so much information about him, this is probably going to be a multi-part episode. Right now, I don't know if that's. I would say two parts for sure. It could even be a three-part episode. We'll figure that out as we go. So as always, we have to start at the beginning, and that is with Dennis Raiders' childhood. He was born March 9th, 1945 in a town called Pittsburgh, Kansas, to parents Dorothea Raider and William Raider. Dennis had three younger brothers, and although he was born in Pittsburgh, he was. He was born in Pittsburgh, he grew up and basically lived his whole life in Wichita, Kansas.

You know, one thing about Dennis Rader, and again, a lot of these things we say about most of the people that we talk about, and that is there were warning signs from the very beginning with Rader, as there are with so many serial killers. He would later state that he would kill and often hang stray cats as a child. he also indicated that he had been dropped on his head as a child. And I don't know give you how much you've read about that, but we've already talked in other episodes about the killing of small animals.

That's a big time red flag. The other thing that I've done a lot of reading about, and you will see with a number of serial killers or killers, or you know, I use some of those words interchangeably, even though they mean different things. things, is that they were dropped on their heads as a child. I don't know. Does that cause some of the wiring that we've talked about before to go astray? Maybe. I think the tortured animals as a kid seems to be a theme for most of them. Yeah, torturing animals, no doubt. I did a little bit of research

on this thing called the McDonald triad. And it, you know, named after a guy named McDonald, I don't, I don't remember his first name, but basically what it says is there's three behavioral characteristics that suggest or predict violent tendencies in a person later in life. So the three are, we talked about the first one, and that's the killing of animals. The second one is arson, so obviously setting fires or as a kid. And the third is bedwetting. As far as I know, Dennis Rader, wasn't a childhood arsonist and I didn't read anything about him having a real bad issue with bedwetting and I'm not sure what the severity or how long the bedwetting has to occur to fall into this category but I you know I'm not going to spend a lot of time on the McDonald triad but we probably

will in a future episode when we have somebody that fits those criteria but I I just wanted to mention it for people. You know, you can research it on your own. It goes on to say that what you need to have is two of the three. You know, if a child has two of those three traits. It's a concern. It's a concern. And it's also a predictor of violent tendencies, I guess, later in life.

Well, you know, he did state that he knew at the age of 10, early elementary school, that he knew he had issues. and he had what he called demon thoughts and things like that. So he knew, you know, during his interviews, he talked about that with the police. But the other thing was is that the interviews that they did with all his childhood friends and high school friends and things like that is that they all said that he was normal. They didn't see him. There was some stories that he did torture some pets. But most of the kids that he went to school with all interviewed and basically said that he was,

just the typical you know guy next door buddy no issues pretty pretty quiet though and most of them said he didn't have a sense of humor he was pretty dry but otherwise they didn't see any really any red flags yeah but I would

I would say isn't that the scariest person of all you have a psychopath who and I don't know if the right word is compartmentalizes so they have these inner thoughts and fantasies or demons, whatever you want to call it, but they're able to show to the outside world normalcy. The guy that's hair, has his hair standing up and is running around and his

boxers yelling, whatever, you can see that, right? This type of person and a lot of the big timers are like this, where they have the inner demon that drives them to commit the crimes that they do, but their outward appearance, you know, doesn't show. And obviously, that was a big factor in Dennis Raider evading the police for 30 years. I mean, you wouldn't be able to do that if you're the hair standing up running around in your boxers. Well, I mean, he definitely knew he was a monster. He didn't, wasn't shy of admitting that. And I know we're going to dive into the cases here, but he also mentioned that when his personality switched, you know,

it was because he had this monster demon in him that would come to mind. And I guess it was, it looked like a frog. It was frog-like monster that told him to do the things that he did. So just kind of interesting there. Well, yeah, you have to watch out for frog demons.

I mean, that's a given. Yeah, they're scary. You know, one thing I wanted to point out about Raider, his twisted sexual fantasies, and let's just get it out there, right? He is a sexual sadist. We're going to see that in all the crimes that we talk about. These twisted sexual fantasies, I mean, they developed pretty early in his childhood.

You know, he admitted having a fetish for women's underwear early on, and that shows up later. He would later steal panties from his victims, and he would wear them. In later interviews, he also stated that at a very early age, he began having fantasies involving torturing women. I just think it bolsters what you were saying. At a very early age, I think he knew there was something not right with him. To what degree I don't know. We now know it wasn't right for sure.

You know, let's talk a little bit about Raider before we get into the crimes. I mean, the crimes are fascinating. They're going to eat up a lot of time. But I did want to talk a little bit about him. He was described as a poor student in high school, but he did graduate in 1963. After that, he joined and spent 1966 to 1970 in the Air Force. I didn't read anything, and I don't know if you did about as far as him having any problems while he was in the Air Force. It was pretty non-eventful as far as I could tell.

Yeah, he was basically like we were saying. He was just one of those people that was easy forgotten. They might work with you. They might be, you know, go to school with you. You might recognize their name or face if someone points them out. But you don't really remember anything about them. And that's basically how his whole life was. Yeah, I know a lot of people like that.

Hopefully they're not... Listening? Listening or sitting in their basement, putting on lipstick. writing my name on a list. That's right. Ultimately, that's what I hope. So if they do, you hope that they let you interview them first. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

At least come on the show. Raider marries in 1971. He marries Paula Dietz. At this time, he's working in the meat department of an IGA supermarket, and they ultimately have two children together. Not going to spend a lot of time on the family because they really don't factor in. I mean, I talked a little bit about this in the last episode about Richard Kikklinsky. You know, Raider is going to do his thing and his family's going to be oblivious to it.

So I wanted to mention that he was married and he had children because I think that is interesting. And it goes against the one of the stereotypes that a lot of people have of the lone Caucasian male serial killer. probably another reason that he was able to better conceal. I don't know if that's the right word, but conceal his crimes and evade capture for as long as he did. So Raider attends Butler County Community College and he earns an associate degree in electronics in 1973. He will eventually enroll at Wichita State University and he'll obtain a bachelor's, uh, administration, criminal justice, I think it was, in 1979. You know, 1979, as we'll find out, that's well after his killings had begun.

But I did think it was worth mentioning that he had a degree in criminal justice. I think he really wanted to be a cop. I don't know, Mike, if you read anything about that. But, you know, we may touch on it when we get into some of his job. here in a minute, but he did like power and authority. I think he probably had thought at one point that he would like to be a police officer. Yeah, I think it played into his fantasy roles. Sure.

So let's talk a little bit about his work history, kind of set up some of this stuff before we get into the crimes. Like I said, he worked at the IGA supermarket. He went from there to being an assembler at the Coleman Company, and I assume that's the Coleman that makes the lanterns and all the camping equipment. No, it's that same Coleman. I thought it was, but ultimately, and probably I think the job that he has the longest is he works as an alarm installer at the Wichitae home security company.

I'm sure ADT is real proud to have Dennis Raiders name associated with them as a former employee. Right. The other thing that that I thought about when I read that and I wanted to get your take on it was, I mean, that seems like, and most of his later jobs seem as well, like a perfect job for somebody that does what he does, right? Being an alarm installer allows you access into people's homes. I don't know. It's just something that crossed my mind that I don't know if he chose it because of that or if that was just a job that came open and he thought

you know, hey. Well, I think it made a good cover. So it's definitely a good cover for him. It's something that he could use that to his advantage on taking out. He could use it on his advantage of going being away from the home and

for a good alibi. You know, I mean, he could be in these neighborhoods for work. Why, meanwhile, he's you know, trolling and stalking. his victims, why he's getting paid to work for ADT, I definitely think that was a good cover for his fantasy side. Yeah, so you mentioned trolling and stalking, and we're going to talk about that a lot

because that's what he did almost every day of his life after a certain point. I don't know what year that started exactly, but I mean, that was his daily routine was trolling for potential victims, stalking people that he thought would be potential victims. And again, we're going to talk about this a lot, but ADT, alarm installer, that seems like a, as you mentioned, a perfect cover for that or a perfect job. Raiders fired from ADT in 1988, and he gets hired on as a census field operations manager.

I don't know what the hell that is, but. Well, again, it's another job, you know, working for the U.S. Census Department. He works first for the city. And then he eventually works, you know, for the U.S. census when it comes out. So, again, it's another reason he can, he has a legit reason to go door to door, being in people's neighborhood without being suspected of anything out of the ordinary because he's a census worker. Right.

I did make a note here that says that, like I said, I didn't know what this job was. But the one thing that I did see was that it allowed him a lot of freedom of movement, you know, to travel throughout the different areas of Kansas and especially around the Wichita area. So again, going back to allowing him freedom for trolling and stalking and all of these things. The other thing I wanted to talk about is for his projects, right? Because I don't know if you saw this, Mike, but this is the term. projects that Raider used for his stalking, the women that he viewed as potential victims. Yeah, he had his projects and he labeled them, you know, sometimes it was the green project. Sometimes it was, you know, he had different project names.

It always came down to who he was trolling and stalking. They were the project that he was locked in on. Just to try, you know, to round out this. this kind of job. And we're moving forward in time, right, as I talk about these jobs. We're going to go back in time when we start talking about the murders. But his last job was as a dog catcher and compliance officer in Park City, Kansas. He has a degree in criminal justice.

He has a need for power or authority over others. And I think this is where job. wise, this is where he gets it, because there are a lot of residents of Park City, Kansas that complained over the years that Raider abused his power, abuses authority, to the extent that some of these residents even moved away from Park City just to get away from Raider. Right. But I do think as much as he was a pain in the side of many of the residents, this job probably saved, I would say, probably four or five lives easily because it gave him the owl. But we're getting that, getting to that later.

One story I found interesting was the one with, I believe her name was Misty King. Is this the woman that he killed her dog, euthanized her dog? Right. Yeah. Stocked her and didn't like the fact that she had a boyfriend. And I think she would have been on his list if he did not have this way to, uh, have his power trip. So I know we're going to get into that later.

Yeah, we, yeah, we, this is probably his, this is probably his, the best job he had to, oh,

I think he loved it. Yeah, absolutely. I think he loved this job. I mean, you know, I read things that talked about that he wrote citations,

uh, for, for grass that exceeded six inches in length. You know, I think he was, just any, anything that he could do to Lord over, Lord over, you know, the residence of Park City. I think he reveled in that because as we're going to

see, he was all about control. And this job gave him a level of control. And I think you make a good point, Mike, in that it probably did save a number of lives. We've gotten through his childhood. We've talked about his jobs. Let's talk about Dennis Raider as a sexual sadist. You know, we talked a little bit about him having sexual fantasies involving torture since he was a child. I don't know how old, but obviously that's not normal. I mean, it's normal to have sexual fantasies, but I don't believe it's normal for them to involve the torture and those aspects. I think that's where, you know, he went off the rails.

We talked about the fact that he used the expression projects to describe his potential victims. and we talked about the fact that he did a great deal of stalking and trolling of his victims before he killed them. One other factor, and you'll see this in some of the instances, is when it comes to his MO, is he would often cut the phone lines of the victims prior to any attack. So I do have a soundbite that I want to play. It gives a little bit of insight into Dennis Rader. It's from an interview. You'll learn a little bit more about him.

I am BTK. I'm the guy thereafter. 100%. I got this fantasy. I started working out this fantasy online. And once that person becomes a fantasy, I can just loop it over. I lay up bed at night thinking about this person,

the events and how it's going to happen. And it became a real, almost like a picture show. I want to go ahead and produce it and direct it and go through with it, no matter what the cost. were in the consequences. It was going to happen one way or another. Stocking stage is when you start learning more about your victims, potential victims.

Went to the library. I looked up their names, that address, cross-referenced, and called them a couple of times. It's all righter, whenever I could. It contained what? Plastic bags, rope, tape, knife, gun. All those that wouldn't be a kid. They'd be brought to have them in a house and gather them up.

Something that's, I use it. I actually think I'm maybe possessed with demons. I was dropping my head when I was a kid. I've talked to some theological Christian people, and some of those people are really strong. They actually think, well, the Bible says that, that there's demons and within you or come into it. That's the only thing I can figure out.

I have, you know, something drove me to do this. You know, normal people just don't do this. You can't stop it. can't stop it. It's just, it controls me. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's like it's in the driver's interesting to hear him talk about some of these things. You know, he talks about the stalking and the trolling. One thing that, that he hits on is what he calls his hit kit. He talks about this a lot, and basically it's his kit that he takes after he's planned out his, his crime, or, you know, after he stalked his target and he talks about it including tape and a gun and knives and

wire cutters anything basically he thinks he's going to need after he's done the uh the recon he doesn't sound like a raving lunatic in this interview and really in any of the sound bites that i heard no i mean he's he's cold and calculated and does not show remorse and really leaves out a lot of a lot of the emotion of the attacks. So again, it just shows you that here's somebody that has just been described that he basically

he is this serial killer and he wears this cloak of Dennis. Dennis is really not who he is. Dennis is just a cloak to who he really wants to be. He wants to be this monster that has this is what they call the Factor X that

drives him to be this killer. Yeah. One thing that was interesting to me is that he was, he did admit that, you know, he had something inside him that was compelling him to do these things and that he couldn't control that urge. That's, that's got to be, to me, pretty common in these types of killers. But do they recognize that? And he definitely did in this interview. Some of this stuff will get into later. but I think he was, I think he knew what he was doing.

I think he obviously knew it was wrong. But he got to a point where, and this is where we go back to being a psychopath, right? A psychopath is somebody that feels no empathy and they don't care about anything other than what is going to get them what their ultimate goal is. I just, I find it interesting to hear him talk. One thing I should have said in the very beginning is, There's a lot of audio on Dennis Raider. So in these episodes, you're going to hear a lot of audio. I think it adds a lot to the podcast just to hear him talk.

But there's audio for every murder where he explains it. And I think it's time, Mike, to get into the very first one, the one that started it all. I agree. So that was, so this is January 15th, 1974. We're talking about the Oteros. Rader kills four members of the Otero family in their home. There's Joseph is the father, Julie is the mother, and he kills two of their children, Josephine and Joseph Jr.

So the research that I pulled, Mike, you know, the Oteros were Hispanic family. They had recently moved into their home. Raider in his, and I'm doing air quotes that you can't see, trolling and stalking phase had spied the mother, Julie, and the daughter, Josephine. Right. Now, keep in mind that Julie also worked at Coleman with him. I didn't see that. I saw that she worked there.

What I didn't see, and maybe you put it together, is whether they crossed pass or that he knew her from there. he knew her from there he also knew the second victim in april as she worked there katherine also worked there as well okay um but he didn't really put it all together the way you know you and i would so you know coleman was a pretty big company that and employed a lot of people so so you're many many different shifts there right so your thought is this this was not a trolling victim this was a victim that he chose based on interactions at work.

Yeah, I think he trolled her at work. Yeah, I think he trolled her at work. Yeah. But I mean, he definitely trolled and stalked everybody. Absolutely. Yeah, once he locked in on her, as he calls it, then at that point, you know, he just stalked

her, her movements and followed her daily patterns. Hers and the husband and, you know, they had three kids and, you know, he followed all all those patterns. Again, you're talking psychopath, right? A psychopath fixes in on one thing.

At that point in, that's all that matters to them. The murders occurred around eight or nine in the morning. Raider had been observing the house for some time. And that morning, he cut the phone line to the house. We talked about that. That's part of

his MO. You'll see it again. And he barged in the back door. The one thing he was not expecting was that Joseph, the father, would be home at that time. So I think in his in his stalking phase was learning the movements of the family for whatever reason he expected Joseph to be either gone at work. I don't know what happened that day, but Joseph was home. Raider had his hit kit with him and in in that hit kit he had a gun and it was really you know, he used the gun to help subdue and control the family because you, you know, you

you got four people. That's not, I can imagine that that's not easy to control four people. There's got to be some hysterics. Obviously with a gun that makes it easier. Another method that he used was to tell the family that he was a wanted criminal. Well, that's part of his fantasy. He liked that he liked telling him that he was a wanted criminal on the run and that he needed the keys to their car and needed food or did this or that to play the excitement. and level up. Right. So he tells him that he's a wanted criminal. All he wants is to get some food,

some money, and their car, and then he'll leave. Using that ruse, we'll call it a ruse, using that and the gun, he's able to get all four to lie down in order to tie him up. When it's said and done, all four, Raider strangles all four of the Otero family. They would die by strangulation. Joseph the father, he's going to be found face down on the floor with his wrists and ankles bound. Julie, the mother, is found on the bed, bound basically in the same way, except for the fact that she's been gagged. Joseph's the second, which is the youngest son, he's found in his bedroom in the same fashion as his father. the only difference being that Raider had placed a hood over his head. One reporter claimed, and I read this somewhere,

that he actually had three hoods over his head. I think it's because, and I don't know, hoods, bags, I'm not exactly sure, but it was part of the strangulation. I don't know if like the first one, you know, tore. I did read something about that. What I understand, Mike, is, so he takes all four from back to, to the one bedroom. And, you know, he has his 357.

That's, that's, you know, his leverage. Ties them up, feet and hands. And then, so then he goes in this, in his mind, you know, he switches out of fantasy and realizes they've seen his face. So now he's going ahead and he's going to put the plastic bag over Joseph's face. Right. Put that over his head and takes a cord and starts to strangle him. Joseph, you know, moves around enough that he tears a hole in the bag.

Which you would do, right? If you tried to put a bag over my head, I'd fight you like hell. Exactly. So meanwhile, so then he moves on over to Julie. And, you know, he tries to just strangle her with a cord. He thinks he's successful, but she just passes out. and so then, you know, he's moving on to, you know, Josephine, and he does the same thing. You know, he strangles her.

He thinks that he's successful. And then he simply just puts a bag over junior's head and ties it. And then he goes back to Joseph. And at that point, you know, he's putting another bag, some type of, it's either a hood or a cloth or something and another bag to keep him. him from tearing a hole into it. But meanwhile, he sees the mom, Julie, is coming to and try to figure out what's going on. So at that point, he goes to strangle her again. And as he's getting ready to do that, you know, she's crying out to him, you know, to save my son.

But he goes ahead and he strangles her. Then he goes back to the father and finishes the, getting the bag around his head and the cord. and that takes care of the father. Then he goes back to, that's when he takes Junior out of the one bedroom and moves them to the other bedroom. I'm guessing maybe it's Junior's bedroom. And at that point, that's where you're saying,

he put multiple bags and either a shirt or some type of cloth over his head to make sure that he actually suffocated and there was no chance for him coming out of that. And then, of course, that's when he goes back to Josephine, drags her down to the basement. And that's where, you know, he goes to another level, you know, hangs her.

And, of course, after he hangs her, that's when his sexual part kicks in. And he has a sexual fantasy where, you know, he masturbates either on the body or into the panties. Yeah, he's a sick sum of a bitch, right? Absolutely. No doubt about that. Hangs Josephine, masturbates on her.

Doesn't sexually assault anyone per se, right? I mean, he kills. Yeah, there's no penetration. There's nothing like that. That's not his fantasy. I guess that's where trying to figure out his mind, why that is his, why is that his fantasy to see, to strangle. and then that is such a turn on to him that he's going to masturbate.

Because, of course, you know, Josephine's 11. So, I mean, and I don't know at that time how old. I think he just had the one, at that time he just had his boy, you know, like a three-year-old boy, four-year-old boy. I don't think at that time he had his daughter yet. But I just find it really strange that his fantasy was to, it's 11-year-old hanging. You know, he had his control.

his power moment. I think he got off. After all that, that was the thrill. That was the peak. And then, of course, then he, you know,

masturbates to bring it all to a closing. He actually didn't stop there. What I read was that he, they found semen on some of the other victims as well. Right. So I think this was something he did.

No, I don't mean other victims in Otero House. Oh, really? I didn't see. No, he definitely does this again and future

with future victims but I read where police said that they found semen on they didn't I didn't say exactly which victims but he doesn't just do this in the basement he does it in other places of the house so he was turned on

by the fact that he had strangled these people right so we got to keep going because we'll get bogged down but the Oteros have another son and it's their 15-year-old son Charlie that actually comes home the next day

and discovers the bodies. And before you talk about Charlie, Mike, I just wanted to say. So I find it interesting. This is how calculated this killer is because he talks about, I mean, he knew with his hit kit and everything when he was time to leave that he had the thing called the right-hand rule where he would go through the house

and he would go through and clean up everything and move in one direction. And to the point, and this is his other fantasy or how he kept his fantasies alive, right? Because he would go through the house and he would take things. In this case, he took a radio and a watch and some pictures and things like that. But he would use this later when he would go up in the treehouse behind his house to look at these items. And this would bring back the high that he had. It was said that, you know, nothing was ever proven, but it was said that then he would, he was probably up in that tree house, you know, masturbating. I was just getting ready to say. I guarantee he's jerking it again.

Right. At this stuff. The pictures, the panties, the, the, whatever, whatever, however it brought it brought it back in his mind and got him excited again. Yeah. So, I mean, that's all great points. As I said, Charlie comes home. But I did want to say, so strangulation and the taking of souvenir. which you mentioned, he took a, what was it, a watch and a radio, this would become part of his MO or his pattern of behavior because we're going to see this. Yeah, I mean, to the point, I mean, he would even set these up to look like somebody robbed

the house, right? He would park his car two, three blocks away, walk down or take a taxi down to get on the street of where the crime was going to take place. A lot of times he would take the victim's car, drive it somewhere. I mean, we'll get all into the other cases. He would always set it up to try to make it look like. Someone came in and robbed the house as well. You and I just discussed the details, and it's pretty gruesome. But we have Rader, in his own words, talking about the murder.

I'm going to play that now. What happened to? Well, I like confronted the family, pulled the pistol, confronted Mr. Otero. and asked him to, you know, I was there to, basically I was wanted, wanted to get the car. I was hungry food. I was wanted. And I asked him lie down in the living room. And at that time, I realized that wouldn't be a really good idea.

So I finally, the dog was a real problem. So I asked Mr. Otero if he could get the dog out. So he had one of the kids put it out. And then I took him back to the bedroom. You took who back to the family, the bedroom. The floor members. All right. What happened to?

At that time, I tied him up. While still holding them at gunpoint? Well, in between tying and yes. All right. After you tied them up, what are they? Well, they started complaining about being tied up, and I re-loosened their bonds a couple of times. I tried to make Mr. Oterrell as comfortable as I could.

Apparently had a cracked rib from a car accident, so I had him put a pillow down on a car accident. for his head. Had he put a, I think he had Parker or a coat underneath him. They, you know, they talked to me about, you know, giving the car and whatever money. I guess they didn't have very much money. There, I realized that, you know, I was already, I didn't have a mask on anything. They already could ID me and made a decision to go ahead and put them down, I guess, strangled. All right.

What did you do to Joseph Otero, Sr.? Joseph Otero, Sr., Mr. Otero, the father? I put a plastic bag over his head and then some cords and tighten it. This was in the bedroom.

Yes, sir. Did he, in fact, suffocate and die as a result of this? Not right away. No, sir, he didn't. What happened? Well, after that, I did miss this Otero. I had never strangled anyone before, so I really didn't know how much pressure you had to put on a person or how long it would take.

Was she also tied up there in the bedroom? Yes, uh-huh, yeah, both their hands and their feet were tied up. She was on the bed. Where were the children? Well, Josephine was on the bed, and Junior was on the floor at this time. So we're talking, first of all, about Joseph Otero. So you'd put the bag over his head and tied it. And he did not die right away.

Can you tell me what happened in regards to Joseph? He moved over real quick, like, and I think tore a hole in the bag, and I could tell that he was having some problems there. But at that time, the whole family just went, they went panicked on me, so I worked pretty quick. You worked pretty quick. What did you do? I strangled Mrs. Otero, and then she went out, or passed out.

I thought she was dead. She passed out. And I strangled Josephine. She passed out. Well, I thought she was dead. And then I went over and put a bag on Junior's head. And then if I remember right, Mrs. Otero came back. She came back.

Sir, let me ask you about Joseph Oterill, Sr. He indicated he had torn a hole in the bag. What did you do with him then? I put another bag over it, or either that, or by recollect, I think I put either a cloth or a t-shirt or something over it over his head and then a bag, another bag. Did he subsequently die? Well, yes. I mean, I mean, I was, I didn't just stay there and watch him that I was moving around the room. All right, so you indicated you strangled Mrs. Otero after you had,

done this, is that correct? Now I went back and strangled her again. And that finally killed her at that time. So this is in regards to count two. First of all, put the bag over Joseph Otero's head, and he tore a hole in the bag. Then you went ahead. Did you strangle Mrs. Otero then? Okay.

First of all, Mr. Otero was strangled, or a bag put over his head and strangled. Then I thought he was going down. and I went over and strangled Mrs. Otero and I thought she was down. Then I strangled Josephine when she was down and then I went over to Junior and put the bag on his head.

After that, Mrs. Otero woke back up and, you know, she was pretty upset and what's going on. So I came back and at that point in time strangled her for the death strangle at that time. With your hands or what? No, with a cord, with a rope. And then I think at that point in time, I redid Mr. Otero,

put the bag over his head, went over and then took Junior. Before that, she asked me to save her son. So I actually had taken a bag off, and then I was really upset at that point in time. So basically, when Mr. Otero was down, Mrs. Otero was down, I went ahead and took Junior, I put another bag. bag over his head and took him to the other bedroom at that time. What did you do then? Put a bag over his head.

I put a cloth over his head, a t-shirt, and a bag so he couldn't tear a hole in it. And he, such one boy died from that. And then when I went back, Josephine had woke back up. What did you do then? I took her to the basement and eventually hung her. Are you hung her in the basement? Yes, sir. Did you do anything else at that time?

at that time? Yes, I had some sexual fantasies. But that was after she was home. All right. What did you do? So he has some sexual fantasies. That's maybe the biggest euphemism I've ever heard, Gibb? I know. So I think it's important to hear him say it. So I just want to run by a couple of things that I jotted down.

So number one, he tells this. to, you know, packed courtroom to the judge to everybody. Pretty much like you would tell me a story about buying a hammer at the local hardware store. I mean, that's... Very, very, very cold. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's... Very unemotional.

Yeah, nothing. I mean, it's, it's amazing the way he tells the story. The second thing that jumped out at me is the part where he talks about trying to comfort. And again, I'm doing air quotes that you. you can't see. Comfort Joseph the father because he had a cracked rib. He knew he's going to kill him. So why is he trying to comfort him? Yeah, why is he putting up, giving him a pillow to lay on? I found that very odd. But the biggest thing to me is, so he says that he hangs Josephine and he says he has a sexual fantasy. He has no problem basically telling every minute detail

of every of the four murders, but if you notice, he doesn't want to talk about any of the sexual stuff at all. So that really jumped out at me, whether it is because that's embarrassing to him and it's not to have just, you know, to have killed four people,

whether he, that was going to be embarrassing for his family. I don't know the reason, but that, you know, there's a reason why he didn't want to talk about that. We should go to Catherine Bright, you think? I think we wanted to just touch base about Charlie coming home. I did. I mean, that's all I had.

I mean, he, you know, Charlie comes home. He's the one that finds him. Calls the cops. So he comes home the next day. Yeah. I didn't know what, if you had something else on it, but I didn't. No, no, I don't think we got to touch base on that. Yeah, I just talked about that their 15-year-old son Charlie came home,

discovered the bodies. I didn't have anything else on it, though. I think we're ready to move on to the, to the Catherine Bright and Kevin then. So this murder is April of 1974. Mike, you had mentioned that Catherine also worked at Coleman, which I did not catch. He was stalking her.

He stocked everybody. So. Yeah, it's just another, as he calls it, another project. Another project. Do the troll. Then he stalks. Maybe the stalking part is, He knows, he's seen her at work.

He follows her to find out where she lives. I'm inserting things here because that's not part of it, but I'm making assumptions. So on April 4th, he breaks into her house. He hides in a bedroom, waiting for Catherine to come home. Again, it doesn't go exactly the way he plans because Catherine comes home with her brother Kevin. So at the time, Catherine's 21, Kevin's 19. Kevin didn't live there, but he was running some errands, I think, with his sister, and he came back to the house that she was renting there in Wichita. Raider startles him, comes out of the bedroom, pointing the gun at him. From what I could

gather, he basically used the same ruse, I think, didn't he Mike? Yeah, he did the same. he's wanted you know he has his he has his two guns he's got his 357 then he has a little 22 on him as well i don't know why if you have 357 i don't know why you need a 22 but uh yeah same here now i guess maybe the backup so raider uh forces the two of them in a bedroom ties up katherine actually forces kevin to tie up katherine at gunpoint he attempts to tie up kevin in another room, but things are not going well for him because he doesn't bring all the hit kit stuff that he needs. And I don't know if this is like you and I doing a podcast where we did the first one, we have a second one. You know, obviously a podcast gets better as you become more familiar with

the process. You know what you need to do. You get a rhythm going. Right. So I'm using an analogy here. This is his, technically his, going to be his fifth murder, but it's his second project, I guess. Right. Second project, second hit. Right. So he doesn't have all of his, the things that he needs in his hit kit. And he's got to try to improvise from things that he finds in Catherine's home. Kevin's 19 years old. Dennis keeps encountering. these men and you're going to see a change in his MO later in in later years because of this. But he keeps encountering these men who are a little bit problematic to him because Kevin gets loose. They get into a vicious fight.

And Kevin almost gets Raiders gun, I think, from him at one point. You know, Raiders able to get the gun back. I think he fires off a shot. he does hit Kevin in the face but Kevin's still fighting him I mean he's fighting for his life he's probably fighting for his sister's life Kevin makes one more attempt to

to try to overpower Raider but Raider shoots him a second time in the head yeah with a 22 this time right so Kevin is stunned and bleeding he's been shot in the head twice it looks like he's dead or in the process of dying and at that point Raider goes back to work on Catherine

from all accounts, she gave him a hell of a fight as well. Yeah, she's fighting them as well and putting up a heck of a fight to the point that, you know, he thinks she's going down, but then she doesn't. I think what's interesting about this one is because of all of this chaos, Raiders' mind is probably ordered, and he has, in his mind, he has a way that he thinks this is going to go, and it's not going that way. at all. Kevin's there. He had to shoot. He shot Kevin twice. Catherine's trying to kick the shit out of him. So he switches from strangulation because that she's just probably fighting too much for him.

You know, it takes a lot to strangle somebody. And I'm not saying that from personal knowledge. It sounds like I just said that from personal knowledge. That's what I was thinking. It did sound that way, right? Right. But if, you know, everything that I've ever read or. And actually, I think in Raiders' own words, you'll hear it at some point, took a lot more to strangle somebody than he ever thought it would. Because of this, he switches from strangulation to stabbing, because he did bring a knife in his hit kit, apparently. Two guns, a knife, and yeah. Yeah. So he's got the knife. He stabs Catherine multiple times, deep cuts to the abdomen. Three times, I think, in around the

river. Was it three times? But as this is going on, Kevin is now up and at him, and he runs out of the house. He's going to run out, try to get help for Catherine. Unfortunately, by the time, well, they do come. They get Catherine. She dies in the hospital a few hours later, despite, you know, they do surgery and some blood transfusions. And Kevin, at this point, I mean, he's in critical condition because he's been shot in the head twice. I don't know how the hell he got out and was able to.

to get any help at all. But you've got all this chaos. Kevin's gone. He didn't get to strangle Catherine. And so he, but because Kevin has run out of the house, I think, you know, Raider runs out as well.

Does what he calls a quick cleanup, grabs the keys to the car, but the set of keys he grabs is the wrong set. So when he goes out to get in their car to drive off, because he's parked his car, you know, blocks away. The car doesn't work. So then he just jumps out and he just basically hightels it two, three blocks

back over to Wichita State parking area where he parked his car because he knows that, you know, the police will be there, you know, in a matter of minutes. Yeah. The other thing is, and unless you saw something different, I don't think he did his thing on this one, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I don't think he had time. But, you know, again, he went through really fast and cleaned up.

So I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't take, you know, something from the house. No, that's not what I meant by his thing. I don't think he, I don't think he masturbated. Well, no, right. I think he took something from the house to do that later. Yeah. Right. Right.

Yeah. So was it a combination of the fact that he was afraid the police were coming? But also because he did not get to. do the strangulation. Yeah, I think it's a combination. He didn't get that big off that he likes. Yeah, I don't know how much of it was one versus the other because by all accounts, it's the strangulation, right?

I don't know if it's just the killing. I think a lot of it has to do with the strangulation. And because it doesn't go so well, I think he doesn't really take credit for this for quite a while. Am I right? Is this the one that he just, it went so bad that he just doesn't take credit for it? and doesn't really bring it up throughout his early meetings with the police, but eventually, you know, takes credit for it.

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, we'll probably get into that in a future episode, but I do believe you're right about that. So, but, you know, as with Otero, we have Raiders' own words. What's better than that? I don't know how exactly say that. I had many, what I call them, projects. There were different people in the town that I followed watch.

Captain Bryant was one of the next targets, I guess, as I would indicate. How did you select her? Just driving by one day, and I saw her go in the house with somebody else, and I thought that's a possibility. There was many places in the area. College Hill, they're all over Wichita. Anyway, it just was basically a selection process,

worked toward it. If it didn't work, I'd just move on to something else. In my kind of person, stocking and strolling, you go through the trolling stage, and then a stocking stage, she was in the stocking stage when this happened. All right, sir, so you identified Catherine Bride as a potential victim. Yes, sir.

What did you do here in Central County then? Pardon? What did you do then here in Central County? On this particular day, I broke into the house and waited for her to come home. How did you break into the house? Through the back door on the east side. All right, and you waited for her to come home. Where did you wait?

In the house there, probably close to the bedroom. I walked through the house and I walked through the house. and kind of figured out where I'd be if they came through. All right. What happened then? She and Kevin. Bright came in. I wasn't expecting him to be there.

And come find out, I guess, they were related. That time I approached him and told him I was wanted in California. Needed some car. Basically the same thing that I told the turals. Kind of ease of making them feel better. And proceeded to, I think I had him tie. I think I had him tie her up first, and then I tied him up or vice and versa. I don't remember right now.

Let me ask, and you indicated that you had some items to tie these people with. Did you bring these items, both the old tarils and with this location? The tarils I did. I'm not really sure on the Wrights. There was some, when I am working with the police, there was some controversy on that. Probably more likely I did, but if I had to be. had brought my stuff and used my stuff, Kevin would probably be dead today. I'm not bragging on that. It's just a matter of fact. The bonds I've tied him up with,

he broke him. And maybe same way with Catherine, it was, I got out of hand. All right. Now, you indicated that you believe you had Kevin Ty, Catherine up. Tell me what happened then. Okay. I moved, well, after, I really can't remember Judge whether I had her tie him up or she tied him up. But anyway, I moved, basically I moved her to another bedroom and he was already secure there by the bed. I tied his feet to the bed post upon the bedpost that he couldn't run. Kind of tied her in the other bedroom and then it came back to strangle him. And at that time we had a fight. Were you armed with the handgun at that time also? Yes, I had a handgun. What happened when you came back? I actually had two handguns. Well, I started

started strangling either the garrent broke or he broke his bonds and he jumped up a quick like. I pulled my gun and quickly shot at him. He hit him in the head. He fell over. I could see the blood and as far as I started, you know, I thought he was down and was out and then went and started to strangle Catherine. And then we started fighting because bonds were very good and so back and forth, we fought. we fought. You and Catherine? Yeah, we fought. And I got the best of her and I thought she was

going down and then I could hear some movement in the other room. So I went back and Kevin, no, no, I thought she was going down and I went back to the other bedroom where Kevin was at. And I tried to restrangle him at that time. And he jumped up and we fought and he about at that time about shot me because he's got the other pistol that was in my shoulder here. I had my magnum in my shoulder. So in a great way I... Did you have a shoulder holster? Yes, and I had the magnum of a shoulder holster.

The other one was a 22. And we fought at that point in time, and I thought it was going to go off. I jammed the gun, stuck my finger in there, jammed it. And I think he thought that was the only gun I had because once I either betty's finger or hit him or something got away and I used the 22 and shot him one more time. And I thought he was down for good at that time. So you shot him a second time? Yes, sir.

What happened then? Went back to finish the job on Catherine. And she was fighting. And at that point in time, I've been fighting her. And then I heard some, I don't know whether I was basically losing control. The strangulation wasn't working on her. And I used a knife on her. You say you used a knife on her.

Yes. What did you do with the knife? I stabbed her. I just used to stab two or three times either here or here, maybe two back here and one here, or maybe just two times back here. You were pointing to your lower back and your... Yeah, underneath the ribs. And your lower abdomen?

Yeah, underneath the ribs, up under the ribs. So after you stabbed her, what happened? Actually, I think at that point in time, well, it was a total mess. because I didn't have control on it. She was bleeding. She went down. I think I just went back to check on Kevin, or at that basically the same time,

I heard him escape. It could be one of the two, but all of a sudden the front door of the house was open and he was gone. Oh, I tell you what I thought. I thought the police were coming at that time. I heard the door open. I thought, no, that's it.

And I stepped out there, and I could see him running down the street, so I quickly cleaned up everything that I could and left. So, oh. I don't know. A couple of things. The part where he talks about if he would have brought everything that he needed in his hit kit, Kevin would have been dead.

And he says, I'm not bragging. That's just, I don't know if he said that was a fact or whatever. I thought that was interesting. But once again, it's like he's telling a story of what he had yesterday for breakfast at the damn waffle house. Yeah, just pretty nonchalant. Yeah. I guess at that point you're caught and it doesn't matter, but there's still something, I don't know, I've seen confessions or, you know, on some shows before where people have a lot more emotion.

He has no empathy like we talked about because he's a psychopath. It's interesting. I hope people find it interesting. I know the audio quality is not great on the confession clips. It's the best one I could find. The other thing, and I think it backed up what you said, Mike, where he talked about at one point after Kevin had run off, he thought the cops were on their way.

So he did a quick cleanup. He didn't do the, what was it, right-hand rule? Right. He probably couldn't do the right-hand rule because he didn't have time, but he did a quick cleanup. And he didn't say it, but he probably didn't get to do his little,

his little jerky jerk and then he got the hell out of there. I think at this point where we're at in the podcast, probably a good stopping point. It's crazy that even though we've covered half of the murders, time-wise, we've only covered basically what, a few months? And that's what's very, very interesting about the BTK, story is the next five murders, the timing, him trying to play with the media and the cops and all that, we'll get into that the next episode. So Gibby, do you agree? It's a good place to

stop. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's a good spot when we pick back up. You know, when he sends out his first interaction with the media. I think we go from there. It really gets intriguing. that point yeah yeah definitely does so um well again appreciate everybody for uh listening to the episode for downloading please subscribe so that you get uh part two of the dennis raider btk story for uh ferg and gibby stay safe keep your own time ticking