True Crime All The Time - BTK Dennis Rader Part 2

Episode Date: December 7, 2016

This is part 2 of the BTK - Dennis Rader episode. We continue talking about the vicious murders committed by Rader and his technique of trolling for and stalking his victims (which he calls his "projects"). There is so much information to be shared about Rader that we will finish up with part 3 which should come out Sunday night. Please visit the show's website at http://truecrimeallthetime.com. Click through the Amazon banner for all of your Amazon shopping. Click on the contact page to see all the ways you can follow and interact with the show - We have a Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Tumblr page. You can see our voicemail number so that you can leave a message if you want it to be heard on the next episode. We really want to interact with the listeners so feel free to send us a message on any of these platforms. Please subscribe to the show if you haven't already and rate and review on whatever platform you use to listen to the show. Share the show's Facebook posts on your own timeline so that your friends can see (you know you have some closest true crime friends!) Your support has been amazing and we can't tell you enough how much it means that so many people are downloading and listening to the show! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome, true crime fans. This is episode four of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm your host, Mike Ferguson. And with me is my co-host, Mike Gibson, aka Gibi. Givie, what's going on? Hey, Mike, how's going? It's good, man. Yeah.

Going real good. So I've got to say, this is episode four, but this is part two of the Dennis Raider, B-T, K story. So if you have not listened to episode three, you've got to stop right now. Stop everything you're doing. Stop the podcast. Go back. Download episode three and start there. Got to do it. We talked about last episode Gibbs overwhelmed by the support. The numbers, the last two days, dwarfed what we had last week. So it was, it's just been unbelievable. I'm really, I'm blown away.

How many people are reaching out on social media. It's really starting to take off. And I just want to thank everybody who has downloaded and taken the time to listen to this show. I would ask, as I do every show, that you subscribe. And this time I'm going to add, you know, if you're on iTunes, I've been talking to a lot of people and they do not know how to rate the show. Most people know how to subscribe, but a lot of people don't know how to rate. And you can do it right through your phone.

If you go to the search, if you're in the podcast app and you go to the search button, type in true crime all the time, click on our podcast. You can write a review, give us a rating, and that's how you can do it right through your phone. But that helps us out, helps us get out to a broader audience. tell your friends. Also, visit our website, Truecrime all the time.com. If you click on that contact tab,

your contact page, you'll see everything. You'll see our Facebook page, follow us there. You'll see our Twitter, follow us there. We really want to get more social media interaction.

You know, while you're at the website, click through the Amazon banner. If you're doing any Amazon shopping, Amazon gives us a little love to the show. It doesn't cost you a thing. And it's an easy way to support the show without shelling out any dough. Before we get into where we left off last show, I want to give a shout out to a couple of people that did reach out that reached out through social media.

So Brenda in Ohio, Annie and Texas, both reached out through the Facebook page, said some great things. about the show. And then Melly on Twitter. I wanted to give her a shout out as well because she said some really nice things about the show. Gibbs, we were talking. We got a lot of stuff to get through. Dennis Rader, such an enigma. We got through five murders, but is really two different incidents, right? So four murders, which were the Oteros, and one murder, which was Catherine Bright. So from there, we're picking up in October of 74. So this is about nine months after the Otero murder, six months, give or take after the Bright murder.

The Wichita Eagle is the, I assume, the local paper there in Wichita. And there's an employee named Don Granger who gets an anonymous call. Caller directs him to the Wichita Pupport. public library and gives Don a specific book to look for. So Granger goes to the library, finds the book, and inside the book is a letter claiming credit for the killings of the Otero family, and the letter also promises more victims. The police had no doubt that the letter was written by the killer because there was some details inside the letter that only the killer could have known.

I thought it was, is interesting Gibbs that, that obviously we're talking about Rader, right? We know the killer is Rader, but so Rader addresses the letter to the secret witness program. I'm not sure what that is, but it was, I guess it was something that people could pass information to the police through the newspaper and remain anonymous. So he must have known about it and that's who he addressed it to. One thing that police wanted is they asked the Wichita Eagle to not publish the contents of the letter, basically because they didn't want a whole bunch of people coming forward and they didn't want a bunch of false confessions, which is something that would happen in a situation like that.

The problem is that a reporter at a rival paper, the Wichita Sun, also received a copy of the letter and printed it in December. Obviously, the cat's out of the bag at that point. I did want to read a couple of the excerpts from the letter. And one thing, Gabby and I want to talk about a little bit, is we hit on it, touched on it in the first episode a little bit. I find a lot of similarities between Dennis Raider and the Zodiac. And I know we haven't covered Zodiac. We probably will at some point. And I don't know how much you know about the Zodiac,

but I've watched everything. I've read all the Grace Smith books, which some people say are bull. But there's just a lot of similarity between the two. because one thing that Raider does is he intentionally in these letters misspells a lot of words and has a lot of grammatical errors. When were the dates of the Zodiac killer? Yeah, so when did that occur?

Zodiac started in the 60s. I did read somewhere in the research that I did on Raider that I don't think he ever admitted this, but there was an assumption that, you know, he was patterning himself somewhat after the zodiac when it came to this communication. And, you know, there's going to be a lot more, right, that we're going to talk about. But I think that's, I think he probably did because just even look, you know, playing some of the confessions that you had on the first segment. You know, he talks about, you know, he uses the word serial killer. quite frequently. This is what a serial killer does.

But the only reason he know that is because he's followed or researched some, you know, for him to be able to say something like that and for him to say things like his, you know, as he's mentioned, you know, the first two murders talking about his hit kit and his, you know, project list and things like that. So I do believe that I don't know if it was a zodiac, but he's definitely some found somebody that he idolizes and is trying to be similar, but in his own sick and fantasy way. Well, yeah. So what would be the reason for reaching out to the cops or the paper? There's only one reason. It's because you want to revel in taking credit for these heinous crimes that you've committed, right?

If not, you just stay silent. Sure, fame. Yeah. I mean, you don't want to. to get caught, don't reach out to the cops. He wants the notoriety, right? Fame. Yeah. Yeah. I want to read the letter.

And to preface it, you know, at this point, apparently there's three people that the police must have had in custody. They were looking at for the Otero murders because he says, I write this letter to you for the sake of the taxpayer as well as your time. those three dude you have in custody are just talking to get publicity for the Otero murders. They know nothing at all. I did it by myself with no one's help. There has been no talk either.

Let's put this straight. There wasn't a lot of grammatical errors, but he left the S off of dudes, and I said it that way on purpose, just to be authentic. But he goes on to provide details of the crimes and the crime scenes that, nobody else could have known. And then he goes on to say, I'm sorry this happened to society. They are the ones who suffer the most.

It hard to control myself. You probably call me psychotic with sexual perversion hang up. Well, no shit. He has a sexual perversion hang up. The letter didn't say that. But I added it. When this monster enter my brain,

I will never know. but hear it to stay. How does one cure himself? If you ask for help that you have killed four people, they will laugh or hit the panic button and call the cop. I can't stop it so the monster goes on and hurt me as well as society. Society can be thankful that there are ways for people like me

to relieve myself at time by daydreams of some victims being torture and being mine. It a big complicated game, my friend, of the monster play, putting victims number down. Follow them. Checking up on them. Waiting in the dark. Waiting.

Waiting. The pressure is great. And sometimes he run the game to his liking. Maybe you can stop him. I can't. He has already chosen. his next victim or victims. I don't know who they are yet.

The next day after I read the paper, I will know. But it too late. Good luck hunting. Yours truly guiltily. All right. That was a little hard to read just because of the errors, but I tried to read it as it was presented. Grammar-wise, is almost like I wrote it. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. No. Like makes one of my English grammar sometimes, folks. Sometimes. Only why driving through Illinois. Yeah. That's a great state.

The great state of Illinois. Yeah, it's right next door to Illinois. So the letter's unsigned, but it does contain a postscript. So I want to read that too. So it says, P.S. Since sex criminals do not change their MO, or by nature cannot do so, I will not change mine. The code word for me will be bind them, torture them, kill them, BTK, you see he at it again.

They will be on the next victim. So Mike, we went through a whole episode talking about Dennis Raider, BTK. But we didn't, we never did say what it stood for. there was a reason for that because we never got to that point, right? We never got to that point in time. And it was this letter was the first time that BTK was mentioned. And I think it's kind of strange that he gives it to him himself. Yeah, he's developing his own calling card.

Some of the people that examined the letter or some of the things that were thought about the letter were that this person was probably, you know, somewhat educated and this was really a poor attempt at a look like they had a bad grip on on English, right? And they were trying to deceive or make themselves look much dumber than they really were. They, you know, the, the analysis goes on to say, and you will, you'll see this in, Zodiac as well, because I've read a lot of the Zodiac letters. So Rader had, he has no problem with words like psychotic, perversion, complicated, but he can't spell some of really easy words. Zodiac, very similar in some of his letters where, you know, he would have some of the

more complicated words he'd have no problem with, but some of the easy ones he would misspell. And I think it's similar done on purpose to try to confuse. So I think we get into toper of 74, right? He made his last kill in April of 74, sends the letter in October of 74. Raiders next victim would not come until March 17th of 1977. So he takes a three-year hiatus from killing. My question is why? What is he doing during this time? And how can he go three years without killing anyone and satisfying his what we know to be

sexual addiction that is attached to torture slash murder. Gibby, what's your answer to that? I don't know, but I mean, we know that he didn't, to the best of our knowledge, we know that nothing occurred during those periods of time because, one, there was no murders on record in that

city that he liked to performing and we know that you know here's somebody that likes to take credit he wants the notoriety of it and he's not if there was something that he did you know even who was in a neighboring town city state he's somebody that would have taken credit for it well because he does he does do that right at some point he does try to take credit for murders that he didn't even do right so i mean that's why i think if he actually actually did perform one he would make sure people were aware of it. I agree. I agree.

I don't know what he was doing in this gap. You know, how he fed that demon? Yeah. So a couple of the, I mean, there's a couple of things we know. Number one, he's working at ADT during this whole period of time. You know, we laid out his job history in the first episode. Number two, by his own admission, he never stopped trolling and stalking. So you know he's doing that during this three-year period.

The question is, why doesn't he act upon it? We don't know the answer, but we're posing the question. He, at this time, is attending Wichita State University. The other thing that is his first child is born in 75. Those are some factors that could have played into it. And I kind of think that the child being born, first child in 75, probably plays into it, you know, because, could be the biggest factor maybe it softens them up for puts that demon and on the back porch for a while

but as we know it's a very short period of time before it comes to the forefront again well i mean you and i both know what it's like to have your first child those first years are tough actually it doesn't get that much easier but no but also it's uh it's also probably the best feeling you ever have you know it is and that uh and And you might be tapping into something there. Your first child. Yeah, you might be tapping into something there where he was in a state of mind where he didn't feel the, maybe the urge wasn't as strong.

Maybe he could control it. I'm not sure. But I think it's interesting to bring up. I think it's interesting. You know, a lot of serial killers. And we're, I mean, this, a three-year period for him is actually kind of small. because as we go on, we're going to see he's going to have a lot, you know, he's going to have a lot longer periods of time. That is just not what I'm used to seeing with most serial killers.

You know, they can't go that long and put the, the demon, as he called it, at bay for that long a period of time. So let's get to the next murder. It's March 17th, 1977, as we said, Raider, dismal. sides for whatever reason that, you know, it's time for another murder. He's been trolling. And what I had read is he had been trolling one particular neighborhood pretty heavily. And he had had several women in this neighborhood as projects. He had met a woman named Cheryl at a bar that he found quite interesting. And Cheryl happened to be renting a house with another woman,

and they were having some parties back in those days. And once Raider found out where she lived, he decided that that was going to be his next project for sure. So Cheryl and her friends, they're, you know, they have these parties. Rader comes around. And fortunately for Cheryl and her friends, the day that Raider comes, they're not home. So Cheryl is a, and I don't know Cheryl's last name because I never read it,

but I have to believe she's one of the luckiest people ever. Absolutely. So Raider, you know, finds out nobody's home. He's trolling down the street. And he runs into this five-year-old boy named Steve Relford. And he develops, Rader develops this ruse. And what he does is he pulls out of, photo of his own wife and son

and he asked this little boy if he knows who they are. Right. This is where he's playing his another fantasy role, right? Where he's pretending he's a private detective. This guy's got a lot of fantasies, man. Yeah.

What he talks about. You know, in a lot of his post-murder interviews, you know, he talks about how he, the fantasy is that he thinks, obviously this was random, but he thinks about the person. He lies in bed at night. He thinks about it.

He thinks about what he's going to do, how he's going to do it from beginning to end. And he goes over it and over again every night, every night until finally decides to make it reality. On this case, you know, here he is. He decides, you know, he's going to go out that day and he's going to be a private detective. Like you said, he runs into this five-year-old boy and he whips out some photos and he talks out. and he starts his his charade and it kind of goes from there.

You know, these next five murders because of time, we won't go into too many details because we're going to hear Raider talk about him, right? I've got Raider, in his own words,

talking about him. Right. But in a nutshell, he follows this kid home, knocks on the door, as you said, posing as, as like some type of detective person,

and the kid lets him in the house, probably thinking, this is an authority figure, I need to listen to him. And there were three children in the home altogether. Raider turns off the TV, lowers the blinds. And this is when Shirley Vianne, the mother, comes into the room. She's in her bathrobe, and she wants to know what the hell's going on. So Raider's got his hit kit.

With the hit kit, he's got a gun. So he uses the gun as he did, you know, with the Oteros to control the situation. but in this one is a little different because Mike from what I read he made his intentions pretty clear right from the beginning to Shirley so Shirley's 24 years old and he makes his intentions pretty clear that he's going to bind her and have his way with her right right up front he says you know basically get in dress I'm going to tie you up I have sexual fantasies you know of course I think she says I'm like you know sorry if I use the restroom first basically she acts like okay let's get this over with what's strange is he doesn't rape her he tells her he's going to but he doesn't and she ends up throwing up at some point and he gives her a smoke and he gets her a glass of water yeah is this is this the one where he you know he always talks about how they get how his victims are upset or not feeling good and he tries to comfort them i mean that's this that's this really sick right i mean it really is i mean it's remember we play when we

when we played the Otero sound bit, a bite, he talks about, oh, I tried to comfort the father by putting a pillow under him. He's, he's really, he goes out of his way to act like he's helping, helping these people.

And that's how he acts, you know, with this Shirley Viann and others, is like he's, he's giving them comfort, that he actually believes he's giving them comfort before he decides to do whatever he's going to do to him.

Right. I didn't, mention it, but he's got, you know, he herds the kids into the bathroom before this, this goes on. I forgot to mention that. But ultimately, you know, he does tire up. He doesn't rape her, but he does strangle her to death with a cord, which is basically his M.O. And he masturbates and leaves semen on her panties, which are later found next to her body. Now, one thing I did read is that he was going to kill the children.

I think he stated that it was only because the telephone started ringing, and that threw him off and caused him to leave before he could kill the children. Yeah, and I think she kind of told him that, you know, her husband or dad or somebody was going to, was due to call any minute. And if they didn't hear from her, they would worry and come over because of the kids. So I think that, that shook them up. All right. Well, let's play, let's play Raiders' own words of the Shirley Bayan murder.

As before, Vianne was a, actually on that one, she was completely random. There was actually someone across from Dillens was a potential target. It was called Project Green, I think. I had project numbers. I was assigned to it. And that particular day, I drove to Dillon's parking the parking lot, watched this particular residence, and then got out of the car and walked over to it. It's probably the police report.

The address, I don't remember the address now. Knocked, nobody answered it. So I was all teed up, so I just started going through the neighborhood. I've been to the neighborhood before I kind of knew a little of the layout of the neighborhood. I've been through the back alleys, new to some certain people live. While I was walking down hydraulic, I met a young boy and asked him if he's ID some pictures. Kind of was a russ, I guess, a ruse, did you call it? And I kind of feel it out.

And I saw where he went. And I went to another address and knocked him the door. Nobody opened the door. So I just noticed where he went and went to that house, and we went from there. You call these projects, were these sexual fantasies also? Potential hits. In my world, that's what I called them. All right.

So you went, projects, hits. All right, and why did you have these potential hits? Was this gratify some sexual interests? Yes, sir. I had a lot of them, so it's just, if one didn't work out, I just moved to another one. So, as I'm to understand it, then, on the 17th of March, March, 1977, you saw this little boy go into a residence and you tried another residence, no one was there.

You tried another residence, so he went to the residence with a little boy. And I watched where he went. What happened then? After I tried this one's the residence, nobody came to the door, I went to this house where he went in, knocked in the door and told him I was a private detective, showed him a picture that I had just showed the boy and asked him if they could ID the picture. And at that time I had the gun here and I just kind of forced myself in. I just walked in, just opened the door and walked in and then pulled the pistol.

What gun? What pistol? 357 Magnum. So you only had one gun with the pistol? Yes, sir. Uh-huh. What happened to that? I told Mrs. Pianne that I had a problem with sexual fantasies that was going to tie her up. and that I might have to tie the kids up and she would cooperate with us, cooperate with me at that time.

We went back. She was extremely nervous. I think she even smoked a cigarette. And we went back to one of the back areas of the porch, explained to her that I had done this before. And I think she would at that point in time, I think she was sick because she had a night robe on. And I think I remember right she had been sick. I think she came out of the bedroom when I went in the house. So anyway, we went back to her bedroom, and I proceeded to tie the kids up, and they started crying and got real upset.

So I said, oh, this is not going to work. So we moved him to the bathroom. She helped me, and then I tied the door shut. We put some toys and blankets and odds and ins in there for the kids, make them as comfortable as they could. We tied one of the bathroom doors shut so they couldn't open it, and she went back and helped me shove the bed up. against the other bathroom door. And then I proceeded to tie her up. She got sick and threw her up.

Got her a glass of water. Comforted her a little bit. And then I went ahead and tidered up. And then put a bag overhead and strangled her. All right. Was this a plastic bag also? Yes, sir. I think it was.

But I could be wrong with that. It was something. I'm sure it was a plastic bag, yeah. You say you put a bag overhead and strangled it. What did you strangle her? with? I actually, I think on that, I had tied tighter legs to the bed post and worked up with the rope all the way up, and then what I had left over, I looped over her nap. So you used this rope to strangle? Yes. I would think of the same one that a tighter body with. What happened

then? Well, the kids were really banging on the door, hollered and screaming, and then the telephone rang. And they had talked about earlier that the neighbors were going to check on them, so I cleaned everything up real quick like and got out of their left and went back into my car. When you say you cleaned everything. Well, I mean, put my stuff, I had a briefcase, whatever I had laying around the ropes, tape, cords. I threw that in there, you know, whatever that I had that I brought in the house. Had you brought that to the bride residence also?

Now, there are some, I think there was some basic stuff that I don't remember bringing total stuff like I did to some of the others. Is this a kit that you had prepared? Yes, I called my kit kit. All right, sir. You left the Bayan residence and had you parked your vehicle near there? Yeah, and it's still in the same parking lot there, Dillon's, at Hydraulic and Harry? Lincoln, Lincoln, Lincoln, Lincoln and Hydraulic.

I'm just fascinated by the way that he can recount things with such. I don't even know what the right word is, but, you know, his demeanor is just, it's just so cold, right? There's no emotion at all. But a couple of things I took away from this giving. I wanted to see what you thought was one thing, you know, he states that this was unusual because Vianne was not a project. You know, this was random and it was very unusual for his MO because he normally stocked victims for quite some period of time. He had been. stalking somebody, but that didn't work out. So I think that's why the Vian murder happened the way that it did. Again, he talks about bringing his hit kit, and he talks about that basically all of this is designed to satisfy his sadistic sexual urges. The other thing and last thing that keeps coming up to me is this Dillon's. He's always parking his car. It's Dillens. Yeah, I don't know what that is. You know, he mentions that a lot. Yeah, maybe somebody from the Wichita area will write in to the show and tell us what Dillins is.

I don't know if it's a department store. So that part of the M.O. is the same, but the other part was very random, which was... So we've got to get moving, and we're going to get on to December of 1977. So it's about nine months later. At this point, Rader is fixated on a 25-year-old. woman named Nancy Fox. He's been stalking her from her workplace, back to her

residence, knows what her days are like. And so on the evening of December 8, he breaks into her duplex. He cuts her phone line, which has been part of his MO in previous murders.

He's in her house and he's waiting for her to come home from her evening job, which is at a jewelry store. So again, this one's kind of like the bright where he breaks in. He's waiting for the woman to come back. And this is the one that he actually went to her work a few times and checked her out and kind of stalked her at her work as well, which I thought was interesting.

Back to the comment that I made about Vian, that being so random. I mean, I don't think that he just saw, normally saw people and followed him home. I mean, he did a lot of stalking of a bunch of different people. But when he locked in on somebody, I think he really did his homework. Nancy lived alone. She walks in the door. Apparently, the initial confrontation takes place in the kitchen. He's got the gun, brings the gun in his hip kit.

Very similar to the other one. He states to Nancy that he has a sexual issue. he needs to tie her up and he's going to rape her. So that, you know, this is very similar to Vianne in that respect. Nancy apparently, you know, makes a few snide comments, but she doesn't fight back. She's ordered into the bedroom and Raider ties her to the bed after she takes her clothes off. And he undresses himself, which as far as I know, I had not read that he had done that before. And maybe I'm wrong, Gibb, tell me if I'm wrong.

But I never read where he was getting naked himself in these other encounters. I think this was something new for him. So he's undressed. He's got her tied to the bed. He's got her thinking that he's going to rape her. That's what he's told her. And it's at this point, he tells her who he really is. And he tells her that he's the same person that killed the Oteros.

and he strangles her to death with a ligature cord, you know, some type of ligature. Again, he masturbates and he leaves semen on a nightgown that's ultimately found next to her body. Not much to this one, very similar in some respects to Bright and very similar in some respects to Viann. The interesting thing about this one

is the next day, as he's reporting to work at ADT, leaving the office in the company van, and Raider stops at a phone booth down the street, he calls the police dispatcher, he says what's on the following clip. A little hard to hear, but he basically says you'll find a homicide at Nancy's address, and then he gives her name, Nancy Fox.

again the audio is not great but I wanted to play it because I to me it's it's very interesting to hear his voice and now I'm going to go back to Zodiac because this is again something that the Zodiac did Zodiac would kill somebody drive you know some ways and then um make a phone call so apparently Rader leaves the phone dangling but police go to the residence that he says to go to, they find Nancy's body. What comes out of this is that that call, that tape recording eventually is played over and over on the Wichita media. But no one in Raiders' life, not as coworkers, not his family, there's nobody that's

able to recognize the voice, which I guess I don't blame that it was really hard to hear it didn't sound to me exactly like the other clips that we've been playing so so they they play this clip in the recording from 1977 when did they play this clip in 1979 no because that's no in 77 so it's December so maybe 77 into 78 okay is what I'm assuming unless you know something different because they I mean he does this the next day so they've got right they got the tape so Oh, sorry, about around the time. It was around February of 78. It was when they made it public?

Public, yeah. Okay. Again, we have Raiders' own words of what occurred during the Nancy Fox murder, so let's hear that. Nancy Fox was another one of the projects. When I was trolling the area, I noticed her going the house one night. Sometimes I would be in any way, put her down as a potential victim. Let me ask you one thing, Mr. Raider.

You used that term when you were patrolling the area. What do you mean by that? It's called stalking or trolling. So you were not working in any form or fashion? Well, I don't know. If you read much about serial killers, they go through that they call the different phases. That's one of the phases they go through as a trolling stage. Basically, you're looking for a victim at that time.

And you could be trolling for months or years. but once you lock in on a certain person, then you become a stocking. And that might be several of them, but you really hone me in on that person. They basically become the, that's the victim. That's what you want to do. Is it troll and the team, not a troll. You didn't say, call out, I thought it said the troll. Oh, okay.

All right. No, I wasn't working, sir. Oh. No, this was off, off my hours. All right, so you basically identified Nancy Fox as one of your projects. What happened then? At first, she was spotted, and then I did a little homework. I dropped by once to check the mailbox to see what her name was,

found out where she worked. We'll stop by there once at Hillsburg and kind of cised her up. The more I knew about a person, the more I felt comfortable with it. So I did that a couple of times and then I just selected a night which was this particular night to try it and it worked out All right. Can you tell me what you did on the night of December 8th? About two or three blocks away a parking car and walked to that residence I knocked at the knocked at the door first to make sure see if anybody's in there because I knew she arrived home in a particular time from where she worked Nobody answered the door, so I went around to the back of the house.

Cut the phone lines. I could tell that there wasn't anybody in the North apartment, broke in, and waited for her to come home in the kitchen. All right. Did she come home? Yes, she did. What happened? I confronted her, told her there I had a problem, sexual problems, that I would have to tie her up and have sex with her. She was a little upset.

we talked for a while. She smoked a cigarette. While we smoked cigarette, I went through her purse, identifying some stuff. And she finally said, well, let's get this over with so I can go call the police. I said, okay. And she said, can I go to the bathroom? And I said, yes. She went to the bathroom.

And I told her when she came out to make sure she was undressed. When she came out, I handcuffed her. And I don't really remember. Sir? handcuffed or you had a pair of handcuffs? Yes, sir. What happened then? Well, anyway, I had her, a handcuffed her had a lay on the bed, and then I tied her feet, and then I was also undressed to a certain degree, and then I got on top of her, and then I reached the door, or took, either her feet were tied or not tied, but anyway, I took, I think I had a belt, I took the belt, and then strangled her with the belt at that time. All right, after you had strangled her, what happened then? Okay. After I strangled with a bell, I took the bell off and retied that with panting hose real tight. Remove the handcuffs and tied those with panting hose. Can't remember the colors right now.

I think it may be retied her feet. They were probably already tied her feet. And in that time, masturbated, sir. Had you had sexual relations with her? No, no. No. I told her I was, but I did not. So you masturbated, then what did you do?

Dressed and then went through the house, took someone for personal items, and kind of cleaned the house up with there, and they checked everything, and then left. You know, pretty interesting here, Ghibi, because he goes into some, he goes into some good detail about his stalking and trolling and really give some flavor to that, I think. Yeah, I mean, he definitely, and he goes, like he said, talks about the handcuffing her and then tying her feet and then using the belt and panty, I mean, he just really very detailed about that night. So in early 78, you know, Gibbs, you had already talked about the fact that the recording of the call Rader made to the police has gone out to the, out through the media. and Raider sends a postcard with some type of poem to the Wichita Eagle, but when they receive it, they don't really recognize that it has any significance to it.

That won't happen until sometime later. Postcards followed by a letter, though, that's taken very seriously because in this letter, Raider takes full responsibility for the Otero murders, Shirley Viann, Nancy Fox, plus what he calls a seventh victim, which is later assumed to be Catherine Bright. But also in this letter, again, he talks about wanting to be called BTK,

but the other significance of this letter is that it's the first time that Factor X is mentioned. Factor X will become this mysterious, serious force, I think, that he'll talk about later on in life that is behind the reason for his need to kill people. I mean, personally, I think it's just made up bullshit, but guys got a sexual, sadistic, fantasy type urge, and he's just calling it Factor X. I mean, is there something else to it, or what do you think?

Yeah, I think it's just another word for, uh, crazy right i mean it's it's a mysterious sounding name right right i think that's all it is but the one thing that this letter does is it really forces the wichita police department to make a decision and that decision is is whether or not or how much information they're going to give out to the public ultimately what they decide is that they're publicly going to announce that wichita has an unknown serial killer on the loose and that citizens, they're going to urge all citizens to be careful about locking doors. And you can imagine what kind of panic this creates. It basically, so this is what we said, 1978, this creates a whole generation of women growing up in that area

looking over their shoulder. It was said that people were checking their dial tone on their phones every time they came home because that was something that had been mentioned, part of his MO. It struck fear in the city of Wichita. And I would guess probably a much wider radius than that as well. So let's talk about the next victim. And that's Anna Williams. Did you want to say something, Mike? Well, I did. I wanted this just, I found this interesting that, you know, around this time, you know, the chief goes on air, and this is the first time that they're trying a new way to try to reach out to BTK. The chief goes on the air, and this is the first time that they use back then. It was new.

It was called subliminal imaging. And the chief and his forensics science experts, they shoot two frames. They splice it in. You know, it has some words and an image. 30 years ago, this was a new science. And so they wanted to get that image burned into his brain as what they were hoping for. And so what they did is they took the words now called the chief. And right below it, they put a picture of glasses that were upside down.

And these were similar to the same sketch that he drew on the, letter when he described the Nancy Fox murder. So they used this imagery to see if that would get him to call in and talk to the chief. Of course, it didn't. Like the chief said, you know, back then it was thought that it had some credit and that it would work. And of course, 30 years later, now when he talks about it, he says, yeah, it was kind of ridiculous. But back then, you know, they didn't know any better. And they thought that it would really work.

So what were they putting this out through the, um, the, um, the, television station? They were. They were. They did a on-air TV segment and it was about 40 seconds. And within 10 seconds into it, 10 or 15 seconds, they ram two quick frames, why the chief was being interviewed. And, of course, you have to slow it down 50 or 100 times.

I can't remember how much they had to slow it down per frame. Right. You can't see it with the naked eye. Right. You got it. That's what makes it subliminal. Right. Right. So, but yeah, it actually says now call the chief. And it's got the pair of the glasses upside down. So I guess my one question about that is, why would that only get the zodiac? Shit, now I'm saying Zodiac. Damn it.

B.T.K. Why would that only get B.T.K to call? Why wouldn't everybody sitting in their house say, hey, I need to call the chief. I don't know why I need to call the chief. I don't know why I need to call the chief. but for some reason I do. I got to call the chief. About some glasses. But it's an interesting story of something that they tried. At least they're trying. Right.

You know, they're trying. So I do want to tell this story about Anna Williams real quick. I know we've got to kind of hurry a little bit. So in April of 79, Rader breaks into the home of Anna Williams. She's 63 years old. Her husband had just died. He's basically playing the same game where he's breaking in. he's going to wait for Anna to come home.

Obviously, he stalked her, you know, for some time. But she never comes home. And so Raider, you know, steals a few things and he leaves disappointed. In June, so, you know, roughly a couple months later, Anna gets a package in the mail with a poem. And the title of the poem is, oh, Anna, why didn't you appear? and with it is a drawing of what Raider had intended to do to her and a few of the things that he had taken from her house. And the next day, a very similar package arrives at the studio of one of the local

TV stations there in Wichita. But I thought that was a very interesting story. Anna is not a, well, she's a victim because she was so scared that she got to hell out of Wichita, I mean, as quick as she could, and I don't blame her, I would have too. The other interesting thing about this particular incident is that it's basically the last time that the police or the media would receive any type of communication from Rader for about 25 years, which is, you know, that's a long time. Now, there is one exception to that. There was a letter that was received in 1988 by the police,

but they never officially acknowledged that it was from BTK. The letter basically claimed responsibility for some murders. I think it was three members of a family in Wichita, but it was signed BTK. And it wouldn't be until 2005, that the police would be able to prove that Raider had actually written that letter because, and I'm jumping forward a little bit,

we all know how this ends somewhat, but they find a copy of the original letter in his possession. So Raider would later state in comments that, you know, he didn't commit this crime. And I forget the name of the family. I know it starts with an F, but I don't have it written down. So he didn't commit the crime, but he admired the work of the man that did.

Interesting, even though it's not one of the actual murder victims. We are going to get to another actual murder victim, but we've got to wait six years. So it's not until 1985. So again, we talked about he had a three-year hiatus. Now he's got basically a six-year hiatus. Again, why? We know that he's probably still trolling for victims, still stalking projects, as he calls them. Why the such an extended period of time, you know, the only thing that I could jot down,

Gibb, was at this point, I think his kids were maybe around six and nine-ish. I could be off on the years. I was guesstimating on the math there. So busy being a dad? Yeah, busy being a dad. He's a husband. By all accounts, he's very active in his local church. He's got no criminal record at this time.

He's still working at the ADT security company. So other than this being, you know, he's a busy guy with a job and a family and young kids. I don't know what else the reason would be. I don't know how he holds off his Factor X, we'll call it, even though I think that's a bullshit name that he made up. But we'll call it Factor X. How is he holding that at bay for a six-year period of time? Yeah, I mean, what's satisfying his Factor X or his frog-like demon or his, right?

I mean. Yeah, I still, I got to get a picture of this frog-like demon as well. now we come to Marine Hedge. So it's six years later. It's 1985. Marine Hedge is 53 years old. You know, one of the things that, so he didn't kill Anna Williams, but he was trying to.

She's 63. Marine Hedge is 53. And it does seem like, I don't know if he's picking older women at this point in time or if it's just a coincidence that these two are a little bit older than some of the other victims. But Marine is also a widow. And what's interesting about Marine is that she's a neighbor. Yeah, she's just right down the street. Yeah, same street.

Right down the street as the Raiders. Kind of eerie. She was described as a petite, friendly woman. She's got four grown children. I think her husband. had recently passed. Rader and his wife Paula would sometimes take walks through the neighborhood

and they would wave to Marine. I mean, they knew each other. Unlike my neighbors. I don't know any of my neighbors. You know, that's kind of stuff that's this theory, man. And I'll tell you, at one point we were living in up in Huber.

And right across the street, catty corner from us, was a young family. And I remember, you know, this day, you know, we would talk to him or her, you know, every now and then, you know, you're out there cutting grass and stuff. And one day, you know, I was talking to him

and he came home and cut the grass real fast after he was like a Pepsi or a beer route driver. And he came home and then he left after I talked to him after he finished cutting his grass. And then the next day we found out that he went and, you know, he murdered his wife and one of his kids, and that was just a neary feeling because, you know, here's somebody that you, you didn't know real well, but she still said, hey, how you doing?

Talked about the, you know, the local events and sports and things like that. And then you find out that you, you know, went off and, you know, murdered family. And, well, you can say that you talk to a murderer, personally. Yeah. Yeah, actually too, right, because I worked with a guy that we were business partners for a short period of time. Hey, hey, save some of these, man. We might want to make whole episodes out of these. You just never know.

You just never know. The other thing that cracks me up with you is you're talking about Huber. You do realize we've been downloaded in like 25 countries in every state of the U.S., right? Right, yeah, yeah. It's a great place, man. Right, but we're talking like, you know, it's just, neighborhood. That's funny. So we're talking about Marine Hedge.

Is this sloppiness? Or is this? Because, you know, one thing about Dennis Rader, he's a piece of shit. But to me, he does seem like a very detail-oriented person. I don't know if you got that or if you're thinking something else, Gibby. But to me, for him to pick somebody on the same. same street. That just doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't, but then it kind of does

when you post murders, right, you listen to him speak because he talks about once he locks in, once he Factor X locks in on somebody, he can't let him go, and he has to follow it through. So I'm guessing Factor X locked in

on her, and he had to follow through no matter what, which to the point when you dive into it in her a minute, but I mean he actually waited in the house for hours and hours and hours before he was able to make his move. And I think you just made a great point and it answered my question that even though I still think he's a very detailed person, I think you're right. I think he locks in and he fixates on a project. I'm using his terms. once he makes that fixation, there's nothing going to stop him, right?

I mean, it's like Oreo cookies. The minute I know that there's Oreo cookies in the pantry, you got to eat them. I'm going to get me an Oreo cookie. Got to. And, you know, I'll push down kids and everything if I, to get to the pantry to get that Oreo cookie. Now, I'm making, I'm making jokes, and this is not a joking situation.

and obviously Marine Hedge was murdered. We're going to talk about it here in a minute, but we can joke but still have some sensitivity for the victims, which we do have for all these victims, no doubt. Absolutely. Let's get into this one a little bit. And then again, we will hear Rader talk about in his own words. So maybe not go into every detail because he'll go into quite,

a bit. Like we said, they knew each other, lived on the same street. The one thing about this one is Raider, he was attending a Boy Scout camp outside of Wichita, and he used that. And maybe he had to do that because Marine Hedge lived on his street. But so he's outside of Wichita. He leaves the camp. I assume he's there with his son. He's a, you know, Boy Scout leader. He leaves the camp in the evening, stating that he's got a headache and he's got to go into town to get something for this headache. He really kind of does this elaborate, very, very elaborate plan of parking his car in the city and he buys some beer. And he doesn't drink the beer, but he's swishing it around in his mouth and he's kind of spitting it out all over his clothes. Just so,

he would smell like he had been drinking. He calls a cab pretending to be drunk and he has the driver taking him to a park in Park City and he tells the driver that he's going to walk it off. You know, I've got to walk it off

before I go home. The wife's going to be mad at me. But the park backs up to the backyard of Marine Hedges property. Cuts the phone line. He pries open her door. Turns out he actually i think on this one he thinks she's home right and he he he does and maybe is that what

you're talking about where he was um was waiting or is he waiting after he gets in and finds out that nobody's home yeah i mean he he breaks in and he he realizes she's not there so he goes you know he hides back in the bedroom and then of course i'm sure as the audio was talk about us you know she comes home with a male visitor for a while oh okay yeah that's right this is the one where she comes home with a male friend. Yeah, and he still waits and waits and waits until he, you know, he leaves. And then, of course, he makes his move. So the man leaves around, I don't know, sometime early morning, I guess.

And that's when, uh, Raider, who's been hiding in the closet this whole time, he comes out of the closet, turns on the light, jumps on Marine in the bed, and basically chokes her to death. I think this is the one where he acts, actually physically choked her with his hands, if I remember. Yeah, this is, you know, another new thing for him, right? I mean, now he's manually choking her. And also he does that where he takes, takes his clothes off, some new things.

Yeah. And, you know, there's, you know, he adds a bunch of new wrinkles to this one. You know, and I don't know what fantasy this fulfilled. But he drags her, her body out to the car, puts it in her own trunk. drives to his own church where he's supposedly, I don't know what he is, a deacon, or at some, I know at some point he's elected president of the congregational,

something or other, he takes her to the church. He's very trusted because he has keys to the church. He takes her body down into the basement. Yeah. I mean, he sets her up with a bunch of bondage poses and takes pictures of that. with his Polaroid camera.

I'm assuming that he'll use those polaroids later up in his treehouse in his backyard. I guess I just answered my own question, right, where I said, what part of this fantasy does it play? The part it plays is, in some of the other murders, he masturbates at the scene. In this one, he takes the body to another location. As you said, poses her in different types of bondage poses, or whatever it is, takes photographs that he's going to use. And again, I'm doing air quotes.

You can't see them. Use at a later date. And then basically he just finds a place in a ditch a few miles outside of Park City and dumps her body. And really, you know, it's not like he digs a ditch and covers it up or, you know, digs a big hole and covers her up. He just dumps her body. Yeah, I think he just dumps it and puts some.

brush on top. But again, here's a new twist to his project, right? I mean, this is another step in his project. So now he's taking the body off site, taken it to another site, and then putting it back in the trunk and driving it again to somewhere else

to ditch it. I mean, he's raising the risk of being caught by doing this. But does that also risk the fantasy? Oh, absolutely. I think it adds to it. I think it The excitement of that that he might get caught just makes it all that more exciting for him.

Because there is a factor there, right? When you have anything like what Raider has, and again, I'm not speaking from knowledge, so I don't want anybody out there to think that. I assume that at some point the satisfaction from doing something similar, that has to start to wane. And so you've got to ratchet it up. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, he's just, he's tired of the same old, same old. So he's going to take a ton of other level because the same old, same old's not getting them off anymore. Yeah,

that's what I was trying to say. That's why I needed you to jump in and say, the same old, same old is not getting him off anymore. That's right. So he dumps her body. One thing I did I did have written in my notes is he left a knotted pair of panty hose by the body, which he apparently had used for something. It never was elaborated. I just, I had it in my notes because I thought it was strange.

And then he dropped the car key on the dashboard and used a rock to smash a corner of the windshield to get the key back out because the key had slid down when he dropped it. Oh yeah, yeah. Hey, that's actually happened to me before. Did you, oh, you mean after you, after you dumped the body under some, some trimmings? Just the key, slide it down back in the day. So I can see it's frustration, but I didn't break my windshield to get it out. Oh, I thought you were really getting ready to let something loose there. That's a, that's a whole other podcast.

All right. We made, maybe we'll do like a, we'll save that for like a special milestone 100 episode, Gibby tells all. That's right. All right. So, you know, at this point, it's getting late. And keep in mind, he's got to get back to this damn Boy Scout camp. But he wipes Marines car down for fingerprints. And he gets back to the camp.

He was never connected to this crime until we keep saying this. It's 20 years later. He's going to be connected to everything. Do that math, 85, 20 years later. It's 2005 when he's connected to everything. But still, he's getting. away with all of this stuff. And what's interesting

is that when he is caught, they do find those photographs that we talked about in his collection, the bondage posed photographs. Let's hear Raider talk about the murder of Marine Hedge. The others,

she was chosen. I went through the different phases, stocking phase, and since she lived down the street from me, I could watch coming going quite easily. On that particular date I had a other commitment, I came back from that commitment, Park my car over at Woodlawn and 21st Street at Bowling Alley there at that time. Before that I dressed until I had some other clothes and I changed

clothes and went to bowling alley, went in there, I had a pre-centive bowling, called a taxi. had a taxi take me out to Park City. I had my kit with me. There's a bowling bag. That was Park City and Sedgwick County Census. All right, you had the taxi take you to Park City. What happened then? There I asked, I pretended that I was a little drunk. I just took, I just took some beer and washed around my mouth and the guy could probably smell the alcohol on me. I asked, told him to let me out so I could get some fresh air. And I walked from where the taxi let me out over to her house. All right, where does she live?

62, 42, 54, 64, 6254, 6254, North Independence. All right, when you walked over there, what happened next? Well, as before, I was going to have sexual fantasy, so I brought my Kit Kit, very carefully snuck into the house, kind of like a cat burglar. And after checking the house, she wasn't there. So about that time, the doors rattled. So went back to one of the bedrooms and hid back there in one of the bedrooms. She came in with a male visitor. They were there for maybe an hour or so.

He left. I waited until three hours in morning. And then proceeded to sneak into her bedroom and flip the lights on what the click like, or I think the bathroom lights. I just didn't want to flip her lights on. and she screamed and I jumped on the bed and strangled her manually. All right. Now, were you wearing any kind of disguise or mask at this time?

No, no. You indicated this woman lived down the street from you. Did she know you? Casually, we'd walk by and wave. She liked to work in her yard as well as I like to work. It's just a neighborly type thing. It wasn't anything personal. I mean, just a neighbor.

All right, so she was in her bed when you turned on the lights in the bathroom? Yeah, I'll have after him. Yeah, so I get some light in there. All right. What did you do that? Oh, I manually strangled her when she started to scream. So you used your hands? Yes, sir.

And you strangled her. Did she die? Yes. All right, what did you do that? After that, since I was in the sexual fantasy, I went ahead and stripped her, and probably went ahead and she was nude. I put her on a blanket, went through her purse, some personal items in the house, figured out how I was going to get her out of there.

Eventually moved her to the trunk with a car. Took the car over to Christ Lutheran Church. This is with the older church. And I took some pictures of her. All right. You took some photographs for what kind of camera did you use? Poor Lord. Keep those photographs?

Yes, the police probably have them. All right. What happened then? that was it. I went, I took, she went through, I tied it, she was already dead, so I took pictures of her in different forms of bondage. And that's probably what got me in trouble was the bondage thing. So anyway, that's probably the main thing. But anyway, after that, I moved her back out to the car and then we went east on 53rd. All right, what occurred then? Sir? What happened then? Oh, trying to find a place to hide her.

hide the body. Did you find a place? Yes. Yes, it did. Where? Couldn't tell you without looking a map, but it was on 53rd Queen Greenwich, maybe. Maybe, what's the other one between Greenwich? I think between Webb and Webb and Greenwich, I found a ditch, a low place on the north side of the road and hit her there. All right. You say you hit her there. Well, there were some trees, some brush. And I laid that over the top of her body. So a couple things on that one. He laughed at one point, which I thought was kind of sickening about the, it was the part about the address.

Also, that audio seemed to have some issues with the volume going up and down. So I apologize for that. And the other thing that I found interesting was using the bowling bag as his hit kit. I just still find it intriguing every time he talks. It's just like another day at the office. Like he's around the water cooler with his coworkers, just telling him what happened over the weekend. Like it's just no big deal.

Yeah, went out, raped and murdered, strangled, mastered, on a dead body. Took took some pictures, yeah. Took some pictures, went out, had some dinner, called it a night. I mean, he's just so unemotional about it. Right, but that is a psychopath, right? Yeah, I mean, definitely. He's incapable of any type of empathy or remorse, even though we're going to play some clips, you know, later on, fake remorse.

But he doesn't have, I mean, there's no way at any point in time. I don't think he felt bad about anything he did. I just don't think he has it. it's not in his makeup. We've got a couple more murders than we've got, we've got a lot more after that. So, you know, we've got the arrest and sentencing and him more taunting of the police.

So we got a third episode. We know that. The third episode is going to be very interesting because what I find interesting is the, the communication with, and his, taunting and going back and forth with with the police after so many years. Right.

Right. And I don't want to get into it now because, you know, we're already, you know, pretty far into this episode and got to cut it off. But the third, I think the third episode is going to be very, very interesting from that fact alone. Well, everybody just needs to make sure that they come back, download the third episode. Right. So you hear one. Because you don't want to miss it.

You're here too. You got to find out how it ends. If you thought I had interesting facts today. Plus, Gibby's liable to divulge some other personal secrets that, you know, may get him looked at by local PD. We don't know. We'll see. Might mess up my witness protection plan. All right.

Yeah. Again, I want to thank everyone for the. the support, the downloads, the interaction on social media. I want to see even more of it. If you like this, share it with your friends. We're really trying to build something here. The other thing that I wanted to mention was I've really been racking my brain trying to come up with a cool name for our listeners or our, what's the word,

Gibby, what am I trying to say here? It's getting late and I'm losing it. What are you on? You want the fan club? Well, I mean, not like a teeny bopper, uh, Justin Bieber fan club, but, uh, what's a bunch of murderettes or something? Yeah, yeah, I, there's a name. I'm looking for a name.

So what I'm asking everybody to do is send me the name, you know, whether it's a play on, uh, the words of our, the title of our show, something that, that, that, that we, can use episode after episode to describe a term of endearment for our listeners. I guess I should put it that way. But if you want to make a Justin Bieber type fan club, I'm not going to stop you. Clearly they haven't seen your picture. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But you know, you can see, if you get on Instagram, you can see one of my true crime dogs, Bodie, who you probably heard in the last episode walking around and shaking his ears. I was trying to, I left the door open to the basement studio and he got down. I couldn't get him out and I was doing the podcast at the same time.

So I'm sure people are wondering what that was. So that's what it is. If you want to see who caused that, go to my, go to the show's Instagram and look for the big black lab. And that's, that's who did it. Gibby, let's sign off for Mike Furken. and Gibby. Good night. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.