True Crime All The Time - BTK Dennis Rader Part 3

Episode Date: December 12, 2016

The last part of the BTK trilogy! We continue with the last two BTK murders, his resurface after a long hiatus, and his ultimate arrest. It's fascinating after he resurfaces how he wants to communicate with both the media and law enforcement. His lack of knowledge about computers leads to his downfall. Please visit the show's website at htt://truecrimeallthetime.com to see all the ways to interact with us through social media. Click through our Amazon banner for all your holiday shopping. Amazon gives back to the show with no extra cost to you. We have a new sponsor - Sock Club. Visit sockclub.com and use the discount code TRUECRIME to receive 15% off your order. Please subscribe to the show if you haven't already and rate/review. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hi everyone, welcome to episode five of the True Crime All the Time podcast. As always, I'm your host, Mike Ferguson. I've got Mike Gibson, Gibby back with me again today. I have to say right off the bat that this is part three of the Dennis Raider BTK story. So if you've not listened to parts one and two, you've got to stop the podcast, go back, download and listen to those first. Or you're missing out, and this one's probably not going to make as much sense. So Gibby, what's going on today?

Hey, man. It's nice to be in your studio today. Yeah, so this shows different in a couple of different ways. The first one is Gibby's in studio for the first time. We've got all of our mics and everything set up. We were doing it by Skype before, but we're almost professional. Almost. Almost.

So from now on, we'll be in studio and hopefully the sound is good. and the production value continues to go up and up. Please visit the show's website at truecrime all time.com. While you're there, make sure you click on the Amazon banner for any of your Amazon shopping. Amazon gives us a little bit of love back. It doesn't cost you anything extra for your purchases. And while you're there, look for the Patreon button. I've updated our Patreon page and you can support the show for as little as.

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And there's also Instagram, Tumblr, you can see all that stuff. And the biggest thing is, you know, if you like the show, make sure you're sharing it with your friends, retweet us, share the posts on Facebook. It really helps out, gets us more listeners, helps the show grow a lot. So speaking of that, I've got a couple of shoutouts. We had our first financial sponsor, and that's Roberta in Ohio. So big shout out to Roberta. a shout out to Maria from Pennsylvania.

She's been really helping out on Twitter by retweeting and getting a lot of information out to a lot of people on Twitter. It's helped us gain a lot of new listeners. And also shout out to Christina in Vancouver, British Columbia. So that's our first official non-US shoutout. Wow. Also, you know, if you are following us on Facebook and Twitter, You can see this week that I put out, floated the idea of doing some listener driven shows, you know, where a listener has a hometown or surrounding area type murder case,

the listener would actually Skype in and be a part of the show. So if that's something that interests you, you know, please reach out. All of our contact information is on the page. All right, Gibby, what do you think? are we ready for the final part of the Dennis Raider BTK saga? I think we are. I know I am. I don't know about you. I've had to take multiple showers after not together.

No, no. I don't want to start any crazy rumors, but I draw the line somewhere. Yeah, you got to draw it somewhere. All right, so we're picking back up in September of 1986. And at this point, Raiders got his eye on a woman named. named Vicki Wegerly. She's 28 years old, mother of two. And Raider would, you know, we, again, we've talked about this a lot, but, you know,

he's going through his trolling and stalking phase. He would walk by Vicky's house a lot. And it was said that he would hear Vicky playing the piano. And so eventually she becomes a project. Again, we talked about that. kind of locks in on her. Yep. As he does.

So sometime after, I think it was around 10 o'clock in the morning, Raider shows up at Vicki's door. Now, did I read, this is somewhere along the line, whatever he does, whatever job he's in right now, before he goes to the door, he goes somewhere and he changes clothes. I don't know if that's, if he's going to the church or what, but he's somewhere he's changing clothes before he goes over there. Now, so I think what I hope what you're talking about is he changes into a telephone repairman outfit. Right. Is that where you're going? Exactly. So, yeah, I read that.

So he's got on a telephone repairman outfit complete with hard hat. So he went all out for this one. You know, his ruse. He liked to call him his ruses. Right. So he's got his hit clothes on then. Hit clothes. I assume we're going to find out that he's got his hit kit with him as well.

he somehow manages to get Vicky to allow him in using this telephone repairman ruse to check the phone line. I'm not, again, it's 86, but, you know, those of you out there don't fall for that. He acted like he was fiddling with the phone, messing with it. Messing around with it. Meanwhile, I think wasn't her two-year-old playing on the floor. I think I read somewhere where I think part of the ruse was he said he had a, some kind of a new gadget that would make the phone work better or something like that. But it was pretty quickly after that that he tells Vicky that she's going to be tied up.

Right. So we're getting back into familiar territory with Rader where he's got a gun, tells the person he's going to tie him up. He forces Vicky into the bedroom. As he's tying her up, she's battling the shit out of him. She's pretty strong. She kind of breaks loose. Yeah. Yeah.

She's unlike one of the other ones that I don't want to say went along, but was giving him verbally a lot of a hard time, but wasn't putting up a physical fight. Right. That wasn't Vicky. I mean, she put up a pretty, you know, big time battle, scratched him, clawing at him, doing whatever she could. Ultimately, Raider prevails.

You know, he's bigger, stronger, and he is at one point able to secure her with ropes, and he proceeds to strangle her to death using panty hose. Not sure that this is the first time that he used panty hose, because then we talk about him leaving some knotted panty hose. Was that in the, was that Marine Hedge in the last one? Can't remember if that was one of them. That was one of them. But we weren't sure if that was the ligature or not,

but at one point he did leave, you know, some knotted panty hose at another crime scene. Another thing that he does with this victim that he did in previous situations was that he photographed the body in a bunch of different poses. And that... So this is kind of like the second time he's done that, right? Yeah, I believe it is the second time. So it's almost like either he enjoyed that. wanted to continue that.

But he didn't remove her from the home like he did the last one where he went to the church, right, and took the photos. Right. The last one he actually removed and removed that victim from the home. Right. Like he said, this one, he just took the pictures of Vicky. But again, he leaves in her car. Right.

And he kind of leaves in a hurry because I think I remember that, you know, when he gets there, she tells him that her husband should be calling soon or on his way home soon. So he kind of cleans up pretty fast thinking that the husband's, you know, on his way home. Yeah, I think there's something I read that Rader stated afterwards that had the husband come home, he would have killed him too. Yeah, I don't think he was the, his luck with men wasn't really his strong point at all. No. And I think he, that's why he, that's why he,

he made every attempt to try to steer away from men being in if they were in the house and such. Yeah, I think as part of his trolling phase, stalking phase, he did everything he could to make sure that the woman would be alone. You know, it didn't work in the Bright case because Catherine's brother, Kevin, came home, and that didn't work out too well for Raider, right? He wasn't able to handle, I think his name was Kevin, if I remember. It was. Yep.

Kevin. So I think after that he was he was pretty leery of having to tangle with men probably because he he was a little bit of a coward probably when it came to that. Absolutely. So Vicki's husband does come home though not too long after Rader gets the heck out of there and actually quick enough that he sees his own car being driven away by Rader going in the opposite direction. He told the police said he couldn't identify the driver, but he knew it wasn't Vicky. You had mentioned the two-year-old son Brandon. So he walks in the house. Brandon's still in the living room, just unattended playing, doing whatever.

Bill is looking for Vicky, can't find her. Ultimately, he does, however, find her on the bedroom floor behind the bed, calls the police, calls, I don't know, at that point if it was 9-1-1, I guess. to have 911 and 86. I'm sure we did. Probably did. But she's rushed to the hospital. Paramedics tried to revive her, but, you know, it wasn't to be, and she was pronounced dead.

Not too long after getting to the hospital. So BTK is driving around in their car. He's looking for a place to dispose of evidence, and he ultimately parks the Wegerly's car just a couple blocks from their home. gets out and as he had done on you know pretty much all of his previous incidents he walks on foot back to where he had parked his own car and he changes clothes was it dillens again i don't know i don't have i don't have it written down maybe he'll say it because we do have him on tape describing it and nobody by the way emailed me to tell me what dillans is oh okay we still don't know i was shocked

at the lack of listener participation, I was sure somebody from that area was going to email in and say, Dillins is a department story, you dumbass. But no way he did. I was waiting on it. It still might come. Yeah. So, you know, there's some things that happened to Vicki's husband Bill after this incident. Because Raiders never suspected of this crime.

He's not suspected of any of the crimes. Right. until, as we've already said, 2004 to 2005-ish. So at this point, it's 1986, and Bill Wegerly has lost his wife. He's lost the mother of his two children, because I guess they had another child, too. He was looked at intensely for this crime, and that's not too surprising because normally the husband is. Right. That's typically this.

And the sad, obviously it's sad that Vicky was killed and he had lost her, but it's also sad that he was suspected of this crime for the next 18 years until it was ultimately proven that it had been committed by Dennis Rader. Luckily, he was not charged or prosecuted or even put in jail. You know, we hear that a lot on some of these cases where people are being exonerated now, by DNA. Still, a lot of people owed him a big apology down the road. I'm sure they did.

The police force, from what it sounded like, as well they should have, the husband or the spouse is always normally the first person that is looked at, but it is sad that this cloud of suspicion hung over him for such a long time. So let's hear Rader talk about the Vickie Wagerly murder in his own words. Again, Vicki was Avegerly was another potential victim I went through those different phases locked in on her as I would call it

and decided that I would try that date. I used a Rousse as a telephone repair man to get in their house. I drove there in my own personal car around lunchtime moving lunch hour or approximately that time

earlier in the morning that and I actually went somewhere else and changed my clothes, what I called my hit clothes. Hit clothes. Hit clothes. Basically different, you know, things that I need to get rid of later, not the same kind of clothes I had on.

I don't want other better word to use it, crime clothes or hit clothes. I just called it, get clothes. Anyway, I walked from a car as a telephone repairman. As I walked there, I'd done the telephone helmet. I had a briefcase. Went to one other address just to kind of size up the house. I'd walk by it a couple of times, but I wanted to check it a little bit more. As I approached it, I could hear a piano sound.

And went to this other door, knocked on him and told them I was, that we were recently working on telephone repairs in the area. And went to her, went to her and knocked in the door and asked her if I can come check her telephone lines inside. Did she allow you in? Yes, she did. What happened then? I went over and found out where the telephone was, simulated that I was checking the

I had a make-believe instrument. And after she was looking away, I drew a pistol at her and asked her if she'd go back to the bedroom with me. Was this the same 357 magnet? No, this was a different one. Different. Are you asked her to go back to the bedroom with you after drawing a pistol on? Yes, sir. What happened then?

I told her, we went back to the bedroom, I told her I was going to have to tie her up. She was very upset. and I think we I used some material that was in and that's another thing I'm not sure but I think I used the material that they had in their bedroom and after I tied her hands she broke that and we started fighting and we fought quite a bit back and forth all right she was physically fighting you oh yeah yes sir what happened then I finally got the hand on her and got a nylon sock and started strangling So you wrapped us stocking around her neck? Yes. What happened then? I finally gained on her and put her down, and I thought she was dead, but apparently she wasn't.

But after she was down and not moving anymore, I rearranged her clothes a little bit and took some quick photos. I think three of them, I remember. And then after that, there was a lot of commotion. She had mentioned something about her husband coming home, so I got out of her pretty quick. dogs were raising a lot of cane in the back. The doors, the windows were all open to the house. A lot of noise when we were fighting. So I left pretty quickly after that.

But everything in the briefcase, I'd already gone through her purse and got the keys to the car and used her car for my getaway car. All right. Now, you indicate that you thought that she was dead. Did you discover later that she was not dead? Yes, I guess the paramedics arrived, and they tried to attempt to relieve her, and that failed. I don't know that she died there or on the way to the hospital.

at the hospital. I don't recollect. But you later found out that she did die as a result of your strangulation. Yes. A couple of things there, Gibby. And almost every one of these, he says, I thought she was down, but then found out that she wasn't.

Right. Have you noticed that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's almost like he thinks he's killed them, but I think of what he's done, they passed out. Right. That's what I was thinking. And he's not really

verifying. by looking for a pulse or something to see if they're actually dead. Yeah, that jumped out of me because he said that on almost every one. I thought she was down. He said it a bunch about the Otero family. Right. I think almost every one he's had to go back a second time around, it seems like. Yeah, and he did talk about his hit close.

Well, we're now at the last murder. The last murder would not occur until 1991. So again, we've talked about this before, but BTK takes breaks. Yeah, where to go? Yeah. What does he do? I mean, it was five years, right? I think there's very few killers or serial killers that can put off their factor X, I'll call it, because that's what he called it.

Right. But whatever that is that's driving them for the amount of time that he does in between crimes, that fascinates me because I don't I don't think most serial killers are able to do it like that but he he somehow does and I don't think that he committed any other ones in between because I think he would revel in taking the credit for it right yeah I think he would have I think he I think he owned up to everything and he even tried to take credit at some point for yeah for one for things that he didn't do right that we'll probably talk about a little bit later. So it's 1991. Rader at this point is 45 years old. He focuses in on a 62-year-old named

Dolores Davis. And I actually did read what you and I had touched on earlier was that at this point, he had become very leery of younger women where he thought potentially a younger male could be involved. You know, he's, he's 45 years old, which not to give away anything, but that's about our age. I don't feel like he should have been that worried, but he obviously, although he was able to overpower women. Well, he's not a fine specimen like our house, but maybe that's what it is. He's not buff and doesn't work out. People are going to laugh that know us when we say that. So he's focused on Dolores Davis. That's his project. again, she only lives about a mile or two away from where he does.

But there was no indications that he knew her personally like there was with Marine Hedge. But one of the questions that did kind of pop up for me is, you know, especially with Marine Hedge, why so close? Why not go out a little farther? Now, ultimately it doesn't matter, right? Because they don't catch him. all his victims are within the city. I don't really know how big that city is compared to, say, Dayton.

I think it's a lot bigger. So, I mean, even if you were in Dayton and did this, right, it'd be very hard to come across somebody that would know you or know of you. Well, wait a minute. Are we talking Park City or are we talking Wichita? We're talking Park City. Okay, Park City, I'm sure, is smaller than Dayton. Wichita, I think, is a lot bigger.

Right, right. You know, Park City, I think, is probably a suburb of Wichita is what I'm guessing. Nobody's going to correct me because nobody will send the email to tell me what Dillons is. Yeah, we're Dillons is, yeah. So they're not going to correct me. So I can say whatever I want. That's right. It's a small town.

So, yeah, I mean, I do think that he's got a set on him because he has no problem. Like you said, just a mile away, he has no issues, right? I mean, he's picking his victims a mile away from his home. I can't imagine. He has no fear in that sense. Right. So like you said, is it stones? Is it he doesn't give a shit?

Is it ignorance? I don't think it's ignorance. No, I think he thinks he's smarter than the police. Right. So. I think he thinks he's smarter than what he really is. Right. And it adds to his excitement level knowing that, you know, here he's doing something just, you know,

few blocks or a mile down from where he lives. And I dare you to find out that it's me. Yeah. All right. So let's talk about Dolores Davis. She's like we said, 62. She's living in Park City. And she's renting a house that is not close to other houses.

So she's got a little bit of space. Yeah. Perfect target. Perfect target. Raider while he's doing his trolling and stalking, he notices Dolores. He's able to at some point confirm that she's single, she lives alone. She has, you know, no neighbors that are very close. So like you said, perfect target for him.

You know, again, we said this is his last murder. But he goes to some very big lengths to create the opportunity to commit the crime. So he's supposed to be on a Boy Scout camping trip. You know, we mentioned that he was a scout leader. Yeah, he just saw, same with the other neighbor, right? He was on a scout camping trip and left and came home, did his deed and cleaned up, and then went back to the camp. Again, he's using facets of previous crimes that, so what's the thought there,

that he thought worked or he thought... were good ideas or excited him. Right. Some combination of that, the taking of the pictures he did in a couple of instances. He used this, he used a couple different ruses, although they were different. And then he uses this Boy Scout camping trip twice. Yeah, for his ultimate alibi, I guess. Cold night, blow freezing.

He has to invent an excuse to get away from the camp. I think last time, what was it, a headache. I've got to drive into town to get some... Something like that. Wasn't feeling well. Aspirin or he wasn't feeling well or something. But he invents an excuse. And he drives back to his parents' home in North Wichita.

And again, I'm saying that Park City is a suburb of Wichita. I'm making an assumption there because he's probably not driving that far to North Wichita. Changes out of his scout uniform. gets into what he calls his hit clothes and parks his car, I think, at a church. And as he had in previous instances, he sets off on foot for Dolores Davis' house. When Raiders shows up, Dolores is still awake. Apparently, she's reading a book in bed. And he stalked, kind of, not stalked, but kind of weighted just outside of her

house, he waited for her to turn off the light, go to sleep. He breaks through the sliding glass door. Yeah, he uses a concrete block he finds, which seems like overkill. I think you would definitely hear him coming at that point. She had to hear that. I would think so. So she does because she comes out of the bedroom from apparently what I read, thinking some, thinking that someone had driven their car through the house. It was so, so loud. Yeah, I think it'd be pretty loud. But it turns out to be Raider. So he, and he's, his, uh, fantasy play this time, and boy, he's, he's on the run from the cops. Yeah.

I think he goes back to one that he had used in the first couple of murders, which was either I'm a vagrant or I'm on the run. But the, the bulk of it is, I just need food, money in a car. Right. And I'm going to tie you up and I'm going to get out of here. So I'm, I'm just trying to. think why he uses. I guess is it does he think one he wants them to give up the keys to the car that's his getaway. Yes. And then does he, I'm guessing he thinks that by telling him that,

look, I'm just on the run. I need the keys to the car, some cash. I'm going to tie you up. That this puts them at ease. He's thinking they won't struggle as much because they think that he's just going to tie us up and let us go, just give him what he wants and all will be good. But we know he'd never does that. Well, I think you're, I think you're absolutely right because in the previous one, we talked about the fact that he actually, I think he told the victim Wegerly that he was going to rape her. Right. In the previous couple, I think he had said that either in the process of tying up or right before tying up, well, she obviously didn't want that. No woman would. and she put up a hell of a fight.

So I think he went back to the, I'm wanted or I just need this, this and this, but I got to tie you up, you'll be able to get out, I won't harm you type of play. Right. So he handcuffs this one at first. At first.

And then he takes her back and ties her up. I'm not sure how she gets tied up this time. I know she gets strangled with the panty hose again. It seems to be his latest way to strangle. He must have a fascination with panty hose or something. Well. Because he could have used anything, right?

He could have used a phone cord, a lamp cord. A belt. A belt. Any type of thing to strangle. But he really... He really... Like those nylons for some reason. At least two or three times he's used panty hose.

So that means... That has some significance. It has to. And he does that thing again where he... He's in the house. He takes the personal items. Now, this is where he gets back to the, he did this two murders back, right? Where he takes her, wraps her up in a blanket.

And then he is putting her in the trunk. I don't know if it's in his, at this point, it's in her car. So she, her body's wrapped in a blanket in her trunk. And then he drives off. At one point, he realizes that he doesn't have his 3.50. He had it when he went into the house, but he doesn't have it with him now. So now he's trying to figure out, where's my gun at? And he realized that he's left it at the victim's house.

So he goes back to retrieve the gun. So at this point, he's not afraid that he's going to get caught. Pretty confident. So he drives back. I don't know if he goes back at this point in his car. Well, he knows nobody's there. Yeah, he does what he's there. So he goes back and gets the, finds the gun, gets the gun.

And then he drives away and eventually disposes the body. Yeah, kind of like it was two or three back where he just kind of dumped the body on the side of the road under some trees. Yeah, put some brush on it or something. Yeah, he's not going through any big effort to, you know, dig a hole or just try to. He's not trying to hide these bodies at all. It's just, it's just, you know, really weird how he took it to another level where he removed the body. So then he goes back to, he changes back into a scout uniform, ultimately ends up back at the scout camp, right? A couple of things I had written down.

Apparently, he drew a sketch of Dolores' final moments. Really? Sometime soon after the murder. and I don't know if that was obviously it must have been found in his possession when he's ultimately caught because I don't know how I stay would have known about it right the other thing is that I thought he threw her car keys on the roof I have no idea why that makes no sense to me but doesn't me either I had read it somewhere so I wrote it down so he takes takes her body way off in her car and then comes back and parks the car and throws the keys up on the roof yeah but that's that's not it right that's not the end of this story because the very next night, he leaves the Boy Scout camp again, and he drives to the spot where he had dumped her body, and he takes pictures of it. So I don't know if he was in a hurry, things weren't going right that first night, and he forgot to, but he had been, you know, he'd gotten into this habit of taking pictures, probably as momentos. Right. And so that's probably eating away at him that, hey, I didn't take my pictures.

So the next night he goes back and he photographs the body and ultimately ends up having an encounter with a police officer at a place where he was changing clothes. I'm sure maybe back into his Boy Scout clothes. It doesn't say that, but I'm not sure. And the other interesting fact with this one is that Dolores' son happens to be a law enforcement officer. He's the one that I believe finds the body. And I had one thing, one other thing written down that I thought was interesting, and that was that, you know, I had said he's not trying to conceal these bodies. But apparently he had dug a grave for Dolores. For some reason, he didn't use it.

He didn't put her in it. but at some point he does go back to this grave, gets in the grave, he has a mask on, and using the old Polaroid cameras that we all remember from back in the day. Right. And some type of a cord that he's rigged up, you know,

today you just set your phone on, or your phone. Yeah, on a timer. Yeah, your camera or whatever on a timer. or back then he rigged up some kind of mechanism to allow him to take us, what would now be called a selfie, lying in this grave that he had dug for Dolores, but he's got a mask on. BTK selfie.

Yeah, BTK selfie. But ultimately, you know, again, this is something that they find probably in his possession, because, you know, he would have kept all this. Right. It's all probably packed in his hit kit. This is stuff that he would have pulled out from time to time. Maybe it was up in the tree house. In the tree house.

A lot of serial killers do that, right? They take mementos. They get them out later on and relive what they... Well, we know what he was doing with him. Yeah. Well, we do know. So that is officially his last murder. And that's 1991.

We've already told everyone that he's not caught until 2005. That's a long time. Yeah, that's, where to go? What happened? Yeah, he doesn't kill anybody, apparently, because we think he would have confessed to it. The only couple of things we know, and you touched on this in the very first episode,

that was that in 91, that's when he was hired as a supervisor of the compliance department there in Park City. Right. That's when he got all that power, and he was giving the folks of Park City a hard time, I think. So you had said, back then that that alone probably saved some number of lives.

Oh, I think so. I think it was an outlet for him for sure. I guess for me, the one thing I can't figure out is, you know, we, we agree that Raiders a sexual sadist, right? You would agree with that. Absolutely. So that, that pull, and we'll call it factor X because he calls it factor X, does that go away? I mean, I guess I just don't, you know.

He never kills again. If he's not caught, would he have ever killed again? And why not? And where does the compulsion or frog demon, as you called it? The frog demon. Yeah, I don't know. So when did he start working at the church? I don't know.

I think he was at the church for quite a while. I don't know when he actually worked there. Because we know he took the one body there, right? Yeah. At some point he was elected as, uh, some kind of president of the congregation they called it. But yeah, there's something, and I don't know the answer. So it's, you know, I'm just putting it out there.

I don't think anybody knows. I don't think anybody, the only person knows is him, right? And we've got a lot of sound bites for Dennis Rader, but I don't have anything of him, or I never read anything that talked about how he was able to satisfy the sexual sadism part of his problem during these either the three or four hiatuses that he took before or this long, long 14 year period. And I don't think Judge Waller ever asked him either.

I think he just wanted to know about the crimes. Yeah. We did not hear him talk about Dolores Davis, though. So let's hear that real quick. In that particular day, I had some commitments. I left those. Went to one place, changed my clothes. Went to another place. Parked my car. Finally made arrangements on my kit, my clothes, and then walked to that residence.

After spending some time at that residence, it was very cold at night. I had reservations about going in. I had cased the place before, and I really can figure out how to get it. in and she was in the house. So I finally just selected a concrete block and threw it through the plate glass window in the east and came on in. Where is this residence locally? It's on hillside, but I couldn't give you address. I know it's probably 61, probably 62 something. Oh, it's 62 something. North or south? North. North hillside. All right. So you used a concrete block to break the window?

Plague glass window, patio door. What happened then? noise, I just went in. She came out of the bedroom and thought that a car had hit her house, and I told her that I was, I used the roofs of being wanted. I was on the run. I needed food, car, warmth, warm up. And I asked her, handcuffed her, and kind of talked to her, told her that I would like to get some food, get her keys her car, and kind of rest assured, you know, talk with her a little bit, and calmed her down a little bit. And then eventually I checked, I think she was still handcuffed, I went back and checked out where the car was,

it stimulated getting some food, odds and ends in the house that I like it was leaving, and then went back and removed her handcuffs and then tied her up, and then eventually strangled her. Or you say eventually strangled her. Well, after I tied her up, I went through some things in the room there

and then strangled her. You said you went through, were you looking for something? Well, some personal items, yes. I took some personal items from there. Did you take personal items in every one of these incidents? I did on the hedge.

I don't remember anything of Vicki's place. You have Charles. We've got the watch and the radio. I don't think I did any of brights. Why,ans? No, I don't think so. Fox, yes. I picked some things from Fox.

It was hit and miss. All right. But probably if it was a controlled situation where I had more time, I took something, but if it was a confusion and other things I didn't, because I was trying to get out of there. All right. So in regard to the Davis matter, you went around the room, took a few personal things. What did you do then? Strangled her. What did you strangle her with? Panty holes. All right. What happened then? Kind of like Mrs. Hedge. I already figured out my, I had a plan on leaving. and put her in a blanket and drug her to the car and put her in the trunk in the car.

So you were able to strangle her to death with these pantos? Yes, sir. All right, you put her in your car. Her car. The trunk of her car. What happened then? I really had a commitment I needed to go to, so I moved her to one spot, took her out of her car. This gets complicated.

then the stuff I had, clothes, gun, whatever, I took that to another spot in her car, dumped that off, then took her car back to her house, left that. Let me think now. Okay. In the interim, I took her car back to her house. In the interim, I realized that I had lost one of my guns. I dropped it somewhere. So I was just trying to figure out where my gun was.

So I went back in the house, realized I had dropped it when I broke the plate glass window. It dropped and fell on the floor right there, and I found it right there. So that's all that problem. Anyway, I went back out through the keys, checked the car a quick like, through the keys up on top of the roof, her house, walked from her car back to my car. Took my car, drove it back, and I either dropped more stuff off or I picked her up and put them in my car. And then I drove up northeast of Sedgwick County and dropped her off underneath the bridge. So you guys can't see it, but Gibby and I are sitting here laughing as Raiders talking because, I mean, to me, sounds like a bumbling idiot.

You know, I dropped my keys. I didn't know where they were. That popping sound you heard, that was not us. That was really Dennis Raider, like a 10-year-old kid popping. in his mouth while he was trying to think. Just very, very strange. Very, again, I mean, of course, I know this is many, many years after he committed the murder. But again, I mean, no remorse, no, basically just like he's just trying to tell you pretty nonchialine. Yeah, so I went there, did this.

Yeah, then I did that. But, you know, it's funny. it is a long time afterwards. I don't know that if he was giving that statement the day after, that it would be any different. Yeah, I don't know. Because he's a psychopath. Right.

He has no empathy. Now, we're going to hear later a little bit more from him in his own words. He's going to act like he does, but I don't think he does. I think he's still thinking that, you know, without him doing this, you wouldn't have been able to find, out that was me. I think he has this thing that he feels he's still helping everybody out by giving him all this information. Well, listen, we've got a lot more to get into. We're getting ready to get into some fascinating parts of the end of the case where he's taunting, you know,

the media and the police and his ultimate capture. All right, Gibbs, this is an interesting part for me. Yeah, this is a part I think you've been waiting for. It really is. I mean, The murders are one thing. You know, you feel for the victims. There's some crazy, crazy things that happen. But the craziness for me happens starting in 2004. So Dennis Raider has not killed anybody for what is basically 13 years. And like we said, we don't know if he was planning on ever killing anybody again.

Right. Or if he would have just lived out the rest of his life as a church member, compliance officer, husband, father. I don't know. Yeah, at this point, he's in the clear. He can do whatever he wants. He doesn't have anything coming down on him. But what happens is we get to some milestones, right?

So it's the, we start to get to some anniversaries of the original kill. And the Wichita press, as they would do in a lot of areas where you have a pretty famous unsolved crime, they come out with some stories. I think there were some books written, maybe about BTK and things like that. I think Rader gets jealous. I think he gets jealous when he starts to see these stories pop up again. And he starts, which he hasn't done this whole time. he starts communicating again with the local media.

So in March of 2004, he sends a letter to the Wichita Eagle in which he claims that he's the murderer of Vicki Wegerly. And he even encloses some photographs of the crime scene. He's got a photocopy of her driver's license that he's able to include. So, I mean, no doubt, right? They get this. The police gets this. they know without a doubt that whoever sent this letter is BTK. Now, the interesting thing about the letter is that the return address he uses is Bill Thomas Kilman,

which obviously stands for BTK. Even you and I can figure that out. If I figure it out, anybody can't. And we're not that bright. So that's his first letter and that kind of, you know, that kind of ramps him up because there again, that letters received there's even more publicity it's in the news you know he's getting all hyped up he's probably wearing some panties like the old days and he's all jazzed so in may of 2004 he sends a word puzzle to a local station and in june there is a package found taped to a stop sign in wichita

which contained very graphic descriptions of the Otero murders. And there was also a sketch that he called the sexual thrill is my bill. Not only that, but he enclosed a chapter list for a proposed book that was entitled, the BTK story. So, I mean, he's going all out at this point. He's just saying, I'm back. I haven't killed anybody, but I'm going to scale. the living shit out of everybody in the Wichita and surrounding area.

Yeah, take notice. I mean, that's what he's doing. He's telling everybody, take notice. I'm still here. Don't think I went away. So people probably relaxed in that 13-year drought. And I guarantee, I don't know what the gun laws were in the state of Kansas in 2004. But I imagine gun sales went through the roof.

If they had concealed carry, I imagine that people were, you know, flocking together. get that. So in July, Raider drops a package into the return slot at the public library. And this package contains a whole bunch of weird stuff in it. There's a claim in there that he was responsible for the death of a 19-year-old named Jake Allen in a city called Argonia, Kansas, that had just occurred earlier that month. That claim was ultimately, you know, ruled to be false. and the death was determined to be a suicide. But like we talked about, again, he's claiming responsibility for things that he didn't even do.

There's no doubt in my mind that if there were additional murders other than the 10, he would have said. He already, you know, he admits, ultimately admits to the 10, he would have admitted to anything else, I believe. So we get to October of 2004. And a manila envelope is dropped into a UPS box in Wichita. And this one's pretty sick because it contains a series of cards that have these images on them. They're just, it's bondage of children and just these terrorizing images that are pasted on these cards.

Also included is a poem which threatens the life of the lead investigator that's on the BTK case. and this is how crazy Raider is. He includes his own fake autobiography inside this package which supposedly contains details about his life. They're all false, right? He's not giving them real details, but these details were at some point released to the public.

At least he was smart enough to not give them real details, I guess. So there's a lot of packages here. So December 2004, the police now get a package from the BTK killer. It's found in a place called Murdoch Park. And in this package, Rader puts the driver's license of Nancy Fox, which the police had known was stolen. They never found her driver's license. also in there is a doll that Raider

somehow had bound he bound the hands and the feet and he tied a plastic bag over this doll's head to show how he did I guess I mean Nortarrows and you know he's sitting around in his panties

playing with dolls in his tree house in his tree house doing his thing I don't know he could have he would have never been caught right he may have never been caught DNA would have maybe caught up with him at some point but there's a good chance he may have never been caught

like the zodiac has never been caught right he could somehow put this maybe and maybe this replaced the sexual um aspect of it was this taunting maybe he got a similar thrill out of this even though he did, you know, it was 13, 14 years after his last murder. So now we're all the way into 2005. In January, Raider leaves a, or he tries to leave, a cereal box in the bed of a pickup truck at a Home Depot. But the owner throws it away, tosses it out, and it was later retrieved from the trash.

And the only reason that they went looking for it is because, Raider and a later message asked what happened to the box. So that was something he tried to do that just didn't land. It didn't work because... He's really proud of his cat and mouse game. Yeah, he really was. Now, this is the first time because of, you know, I guess the information that he had given the police, they were able to actually get a surveillance tape from the Home Depot parking

lot. They saw a figure driving a black Jeep. Cherokee stop and actually leave the cereal box in the pickup. Now, they can't make it out. They don't know who it is. It's pretty distant. But they know the makeup vehicle. Yeah.

So they got the vehicle. They can't tell who it is exactly. And then in February, just a month later, there's more postcards sent to the local TV station. He leaves another cereal box in a rural location. This one has another doll that's all bound up. And this one is apparently meant to symbolize the murder of Josephine Otero. And I know it's been a long time since episode one, but Josephine was the 11-year-old in the Otero family that was hung in the basement.

So why cereal boxes? Is it just to reference serial killer? That's my thought. He just doesn't realize how they spell it or what? That's my thought. We know he's not the smartest. And I'm torn on that. I think in some ways he is intelligent and in some ways he's not.

And again, it could be part of the game, right? He could be acting, trying to think he's thrown people off by acting less intelligent than he is. I don't know. Yeah, we talked about that where he did that in his writings. But then we get into him writing some letters to the police. and in these letters, Raider asks the police if he can put information on a floppy disk and whether or not if he does this, can they trace it?

So the police, and they're going back through like newspaper ads and some things like that. And if you, I've got some of these pictures. I've got the postcards. I've got some of this communication. And so look for that on Instagram. and Facebook and other places. So the police are answering his question via newspaper ad in the Wichita Eagle,

and what are they tell him? What are they going to tell him? Yeah. No, we can't trace any information on a floppy disk, but ultimately we all know now that they can. Right. No data's ever really gone. Yeah, nothing's ever deleted unless you burn it, I guess.

That's why I tell my kids, be careful what you put on the web because it'll live forever. And a lot of that same thing goes with hard drives. And even if you erase a hard drive, there's some 13-year-old kid that could in about three seconds pull everything up that was ever on it probably. Unless you bleach it, whatever that is, whatever that software is that was in the news during the election. Oh, I must have missed that. I thought there, I thought you were going to give more secrets. I thought we were going to get a gibby secret. I can't give too much away.

So now we've gotten to the part where Raider wants to put information on a floppy disk. This will be his last communication with the media and police. And he sends a floppy disk. And most people nowadays don't even know what the hell a floppy disk is. But a lot of us in our, I don't know, how old you have to be? I mean, we're in our 40. So you got to at least be in your 30. probably to remember a floppy disk?

Maybe. And then we're talking which floppy disk? The great big five, the one that was actually floppy? Right. Or the one that was like the harder plastic. The three and a half inch one? Yeah. I think at this time, this was the, the harder, smaller plastic one.

But he sends a Memorex floppy disk to the media and the police in February of 2005. also he puts in this package photocopy of a 1989 novel about a serial killer that was called Rules of Prey and a golden colored necklace with a large medallion. I don't know what any of that other stuff means. And I never read exactly what it was supposed to represent, whether it was like the necklace and the medallion. I never read if it was something he took from a victim. Right. If it came from the crime scene or. or if it was supposed to symbolize something,

I just never got it. So police have the disc. It's not very hard for them to uncover the metadata that's embedded on the disc because basically there was a bunch of word documents that, you know, had been saved on this disk. So they were able to get this metadata on there off of it. And it basically tells them that it was, used and these documents were saved at the Christ Lutheran Church, and the document was marked as

last being saved or modified by Dennis. Didn't have the last name, but just said Dennis. Not too hard for them to, you know, the church has a website, so they do a quick search of the church's website, and it turns up that Dennis Rader is the president of the congregation council. It's at this point that police begin to surveil Dennis Rader. I mean, they're on him, right? He's almost as good as caught at this point. Pretty much, yeah. Because don't they drive by his house and they see a black Jeep in the parking in the driveway?

And then they start putting it all together. Yeah. Yeah, they do. They're doing surveillance. They know he drives the black Jeep. It's also during this period that they get a warrant for the medical records of Dennis Raiders' daughter. They're able to match her DNA. I mean, they don't even need his DNA, right?

I'm not sure why they took her DNA as opposed to. Yeah, I think it was easy for them to do that because they didn't have to, they didn't have to give him heads up that they were doing this yet. So they wanted to make sure, right? went and got that DNA. Before they went any... Before they went any further. Yeah.

So, you know, they're testing the DNA and it comes back that it's a family match with the semen collected at earlier BTK crime scenes. You know, going back to the first episode and even into the second, we were pretty graphic, right? The guy left semen everywhere. So it wasn't, you know, they obviously had same. of his DNA and it came up as a match. So they took that evidence. They took the black Jeep. And at that point, they knew they had enough.

And they stopped Raider in February 25th, 2005. He was pretty close to his house. I think they stopped him. I don't know if he was going to or from. But I did write, I wrote this down. They had Wichita Police bomb unit truck. Two SWAT trucks. KBI, which I assume is Kansas Bureau of Investigation.

FBI, which we know is the Federal Bureau of Investigation, ATF. He wasn't going anywhere. No. No. So they had five, six, seven different agencies converge on Raider. And this part I wrote down, I thought was really... I didn't even think mall security was there. I think Paul Bart was there on a segue.

Yeah. Just for the perimeter. That's right. He's got a cover. He's making the perimeter. But I had written this down because I found it, you know, kind of humorous. I know it's hard to be humorous when we're talking about such gruesome stuff. But so they have Raider in handcuffs.

And the officer says, well, Mr. Raider, do you know why you're going downtown? And Dennis says. Oh, yeah, I've got my suspicions. Yeah, that's, that's all he says. So they, the police search his home vehicle. You know, they've got all these agencies. They're collecting every bit of evidence, computer equipment. They did collect a pair of panty hose from his shed.

They also searched his church, his office at City Hall, the main branch of the Park City Library. I'm not exactly sure why they searched that. Is that because he... Oh, I think that's where he may have... Didn't he put some notes and stuff, yeah. So they removed computers from everywhere. They took his home computer, his work computer. So after his arrest, apparently Raider talked to the police for several hours,

and it was then that I guess he did give a reason for why he resurfaced. And I think, you know, we touched on it right there. at the beginning of this segment. But, and it was because, um, he had, he had several different reasons, but one of the big ones was,

the release of, of this book called Nightmare in Wichita, the hunt for the BTK Strangler, which was written by a man named Robert Beatty. I'm not sure if he didn't like the way it was written, but basically what he said was he wanted the opportunity to tell his story his own way. And he also, and this is callous as all get out,

but he also, stated that he was bored because his children had grown up and he had just a lot of time on his hands with nothing to do. Huh. You know, he thought he'd dress up dolls, bind up dolls and scare the shit out of however many people live in Wichita. In the surrounding areas. So it was on February 26th that the Wichita Police Department held their press conference and

they were able to announce that they had Rader. in custody as the prime suspect in the BTK killings. They formally charged him on February 28, 2005. You know, ultimately, Raider pleads guilty to all 10 murders. Yeah. He gets 10 consecutive life sentences. Because they don't do the death penalty there at that time. Yeah.

Which seems like a lot. And it was said to be a minimum of 175 years with no chance for parole. It was a long time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's not getting out. Basically. Yeah, he's never getting out.

He was never going to get out. And he was putting, what, solitary confinement where he's in there 23 hours a day, gets to come out for one hour of solitary yard clay, eat, and all that kind of stuff. So they say they do that for his own protection because we know how they would, somebody would have killed him. Yeah, somebody would have got a hold of him, especially for what he did to. Instantly. Yeah.

For a couple of different reasons, right? I think you were getting ready to say it. for what he did to kids. Yeah, Josephine, the first one, right? And also for notoriety. Notariety. Exactly. We've seen that in other cases where...

Prison credit. Yeah. You get an amazing amount of notoriety from killing a big-time serial killer. So he's in there. I think I read that now they've, now he's, he gets like three hours outside of his confinement for a good behavior. And I guess a lot of the victims' families aren't happy with that. They felt that he shouldn't get any special privileges, that he should still be confined to 23 hours in his tiny little cell. And I agree. I mean, it's the fact that he gets out of the cell for one

hour to see daylight is probably too much. Yeah, just thinking as a dad or, you know, a husband, if that were a member of my family, I don't think I'd feel real good about that. I guess the thing that gets me, and obviously I don't want to get into a death penalty debate or anything like that, but, you know, Kansas did reinstate the death penalty in 94, but because his last murder was in 91,

he wasn't eligible. Right. Even though they didn't catch him, you know, for 10 or 11 years after they had already reinstated the death penalty. So there was a lot of evidence. You know, we touched on a little bit, but I wanted to just kind of go through some of it real quick because none of it came out at trial because he confessed. He pled guilty.

But they had the DNA, which we talked about from semen. They had DNA from underneath fingernails of Vicki Wegerly because she fought so viciously and all of that matched. They did a lot of analysis on his grammar and right. writing and they had some computer communication type stuff. They were able to match a lot of that. They knew that the pay phone that the killer used to report the 77 murder was just blocked from his ADT security.

I think we mentioned that. Raider lived on the same street as Marlene Hedge. We talk about that. You mentioned it in the very first episode, but Julie Otero and Catherine Bright both worked at the Coleman company. Right. They put that together. Though not, it was stated, though not during the same exact period that

Rader worked there, I think one of them was and one of them wasn't. I know at least, I believe his first victim. I think Julie was. But. I'm not sure about Bright, that they're at the same time. Apparently, his confession took 16 hours, over 16 hours. And we've played. Good chunks of it.

Yeah, it wasn't his actual confession. but we've played some stuff from his, it wasn't his police confession, right? What we're playing is from courtroom. Right. Where the judge is asking him. But man, I would, I'd like to listen to some of the actual police confession.

But it was so long that reportedly took over 20 DVDs to record it all. Wow. And it said that he went through all 10 murders in grisly, grisly detail. We get to the, the sentencing and this is something that to me I just found very very strange because we said he's sentenced to 10 life sentences right 175 years no parole but raiders allowed to speak at his sentencing which I guess is normal but he's allowed to speak for 25 minutes which to me seems like a pretty

long time. You know, I've got two clips that I want to play from his sentencing, and then we're going to talk about him a little bit, but they're just so strange I had to include them. The crimes I committed is to continue to the subject candidate as a monster. Brought the community, my family, the victims, dishonor, and there's no, and it's all self-centered. as a, what you could call, I would call a sexual predator. Today is my final judgment. For me, the last year of the court presented by the state, the PowerPoint presentation was very powerful.

A couple of things I might point out toward the last, but overall, most of that was true. And they think the Sedgwick County ought to be proud that they do have a good state. that the evidence was there earlier, DNA, floppy. There was no way that I was going to get out of this. With remorse, responsibility, and corrections, or the concepts of apology, the old knee started whatever was, factor X, sexual predator.

The volcano was the building of all those years, was the Otero, and probably the most devastating being, upsetting, letting me to everybody, is Josephine. I just don't know. I self-centered, very selfish, and exploded on that day. And it did continue, off and on. Dishonesty, Jeff one. Dishonesty, probably the first thing to the people that I encountered

that they trust in me that I was going to time up, take their money, money and leave and then I killed them. That's dishonesty for my family. Lie or cheat to be self-interest to my employers and to the county. You know the taxpayers money. Pride in a responsibility. I guess I had pride back then. To some degree I'm trying to drop down through that, but that's the media. It seemed to crave the attention of the media. I think the years that has quite presentation during presentation and all the archives that I had. You can understand that. I think the bottom line of the old is a selfish very just associated with society, self-centered for my own purposes. And I take that full

cordon on my shoulders. Victims. He talks about being self-centered. He is basically describing himself as a psychopath. Psychopaths self-centered, unable to feel empathy for others, has no problem with hurting others, has no guilt, no shame, no remorse. Now, I think he was putting on an act, Mike, and I don't know what you think. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was doing the standing ovation for the county in the way they...

Yeah. He congratulated the prosecutors on what... Thanks for arresting me. What a good job. job they did and finding me and but evidence you know at that point it didn't matter he knew he was caught and the one thing I think Dennis Raider was able to do from a very early age is I think he learned how to live in in two different worlds right he had the one world where he was a husband a father he had multiple jobs that he was able to keep for extended periods of time and he had all that kind of

compartmentalized. And then he had this other area where Froggy, the frog frog, frog demon that you talk about. Right. Factor X. Uh, you remember, Project runway.

Project. Yeah. And he, he said he knew, but the age of 10, something wasn't right with him. Yeah. That he was different.

But I think he had. Yeah. I think he started early learning how to, this, on this side. I'm normal. Sure. And on this side, I let my freak flag fly.

He found a way to be deceptive, you know, without being caught. And he was able to do that successfully for, you know, what, 30 years since he started killing. But even going back to, like you said, age 10, he was able to do it for a long time. Yeah. I mean, he's so intriguing that, I mean, there's been books, right? I mean, lots, lots of books. kind of he was kind of an inspiration for Stephen King on one of his books lots of books lots of movies another what the red dragon book the I did oh I did read that yeah which is part of the

um science of the lambs franchise right franchise yeah um so let me Thomas Harris definitely intriguing intriguing uh killer yeah yeah he I mean he was fascinating he's he's one that I knew I I wanted to do early on like I said we're going to do a mix of big timers and some smaller ones. We'll probably do a bunch of smaller ones before we do the next big timer. But let me play this sentencing, this second sentencing clip because it's absolutely fascinating what he chooses to say in the time that he has. Captain Bright, and I hope I don't show it on the media because I did use some of this

from the media because I didn't know this much from people. She spent time with her grandparents far. Well, I did too as a kid. I have many, many, many bond memories that. And I took that from her. She went to Valley Center. I was the Valley Center high school for two years there. Walked the halls, probably at the same line.

She had maybe same teachers, although they would have been older. She worked at Coleman. just like I did, trying to fill a job as anybody would. Try to keep in our heads above water. And I took that problem. Dolores Davis, she loved animals. And I worked in animal control. I'd realize that in earlier years,

I probably did have some grueling animals. And I don't think, if anybody asked, Park City or anything, they would say, I was always pretty good to animals. I have a great fondness for animals. I have pets. but I know she had it. And I read somewhere she had her last Christmas

with her family. I did too. That was a wonderful time. I took that from her. Nancy Box. She was a wonderful person, and I did track her just like a predator. She was a wonderful young lady, well-organized,

hard worker, and I took her up. We had she. She was a neighbor. I want to walk by, wave two. gardener. I lived me garden flowers. She attended church, the same church I'm in too, with boy scouts. Joseph Lutero was in the Air Force. I was in Air Force. He was a husband. I was a husband. Although I always wanted to be a pilot, I always had a fascination with the aeronomics. And he was a pilot. One time I'd even thought about taking pilot lessons. And a veteran,

I was a veteran. So our friends are close. Julio Terrell, this is a lot like my wife, a loving mother. Raised kids, and she also worked at Coleman. She also thinks. Would have been a lot like my daughter, that age, played with her Barbie dolls. She liked to write portrait, I like to write portrait. She liked to draw, I like to draw. Someone mentioned that she was like a piece in a heart.

I think that probably comes to this dog. These would be you can help that down. give it credit to them. He also was just like me at one time, a boy and a dog. Again, that comes from people. I have many, many memories. Now the dog. Excuse me.

I had a lot of memories as a kid with my pets. Boy the dog is a thing you have to have when you're a kid. Shirley, she was a choir, mother, probably a very beloved mother, and I took her life. Probably are fellow people. I didn't know Vicky Byron very much. Although I walked by her place and can listen to the panel, I appreciate music.

That's one thing I always wanted to ruin this piano. And I took her life. She's also a beloved another. She attended a church that I went to once, St. Andrews. I hope I haven't left somebody out on that. I don't know why, but that makes me physically sick to my stomach. I actually find it offensive. Right.

You know, that's to say that, He was so alike that the victims were so like him and he was like them. If I was at a court and I was one of the victims' family, I'd be sick. I mean, sick anyway, but to say that, oh, I like poetry, he liked poetry. We were a lot alike, you know, or they had a dog, I had a dog. I don't know what it says about me, but that one made me more, I had a more, I had a stronger reaction to that one. And then I did when he talked about each murder for some reason.

And I don't know what that says about me, but it was also, it was almost like he was eulogizing each of the 10 victims, you know, and saying how great they were, but I killed them. Yeah. I don't know. There was just some, it's why I wanted to play that clip. There was just something. Just pretty sick, actually.

Yeah. There was something about that that I just, I had to play. So, Gibby, we made it. I mean, we have wrapped up what seems to be what will ultimately be, I don't know, probably four and a half hours on BTK. Yeah. But there was just so much information to him. And, you know, some people may say we spent too much time, went into too much detail.

We're getting a lot of feedback that people like the detail. So there is some happy medium in there and we'll find it as we go along. Sure. We just need people to keep giving us feedback. Yeah. You know, use the Twitter and use the Facebook and Instagram and, you know, let Mike and us know. Yeah. How you feel?

But I think, you know, some of these are fascinating. But a lot of people know who Dennis Raider BTK is and, you know, a lot of the other ones that will do maybe are going to be less well known. But that's it. That's it for the Dennis Raider story. for me, for you. This wraps up the Dennis Raider saga. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.