True Crime All The Time - Carla Hughes

Episode Date: January 1, 2024

Avis Marie Banks was a young woman who had a lot to look forward to. She was engaged and expecting a baby. It seemed like she and her fiance were at a good place in their lives. Avis was killed one evening in November 2006 as she arrived home from work. Join Mike and Gibby as we discuss Carla Hughes and the murder of Avis Banks. The police soon learned that her loving fiance was actually having an affair. The crime scene evidence indicated that his partner in the affair, Carla Hughes, was involved in the murder. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 364 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Hey, man. I'm doing good about you. I'm doing amazingly. Yeah.

You know, we were off last week. The family and I went on a cruise and we hadn't been on one and I've got to say 10 years. And I forgot how amazing they are. It was so relaxing. Yeah. You don't have to worry about anything. that where you're going to eat what you're going to do there's you can do whatever you want you can eat whenever you want let's be nice i actually came here thinking you were joking and waited outside

for a while when you didn't answer the door and i kind of realized nobody was going to ever come answer the door i finally left and yeah and probably went hungry that night because you didn't get your customary free meal well i couldn't find it free anywhere else no there is nowhere else where it is for But no, the cruise was good. How was your holiday? It was good. Yeah, my boy came in from L.A. Yeah.

Spent some time with my daughter and her fiancee. So it was all good. I like that. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool. Ours was a little strange because it was we just got back like a couple of days before Christmas, but we were able to go see family and stuff.

So all good. Good. And now we're ready for the new year. Yeah. And I can't believe it's going to be 2024. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Brandon. Killow.

Hey, Killow. Wendy Bryant. What's up, Brian? Vanessa. Terry S. What's going on, Terry? Debbie Hawks. Hey, Debbie.

Amber Morgan. There's good old Amber. Runs with mooses. Oh, keep running. Kathy Allen. Hey, Kathy. Terry. What's happening, Terry?

Jason Joyner. Thank you, Jason. Tracy Melendi. Ah, Melendi. Kyle Murray. Hey, Kyle. Bert Outer Kirk. Is it like the Bob Outer Kirk?

Kind of like. That's Bob Oden Kirk. You sure they're not. the same. I'm pretty sure. That would be very cool if it was. But I'm sure Bert Outer Kirk is just as cool. Very cool. And last but not least, Jordan, and then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Joe A. Walters. Hey, thanks, Joe. Yeah. Appreciate the new support, the continued support. Gibbs, we have a lot out right now. Saturday night, we dropped a brand new Patreon episode. And it's on the murder of William Rice, who was.

the founder of Rice University. Well, a little history lesson there too. Yeah, some history, a lot of money involved. And not to give it away, but it's the reason why he was killed. Yeah. And I know the calculations to the penny. You did. Yeah, I'm sure you did.

And then on Unsolved, we're talking about Kate Pousy, who was a Peace Corps volunteer teaching in a small village in West Africa. And, you know, she heard some report. that a teacher was sexually abusing students. She blew the whistle and days later she was murdered. Yeah, pretty sad case. So there's a lot going on there. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time?

I'm ready. We were talking about Carla Hughes. Avis Marie Banks was a young woman who had a lot to look forward to. She was engaged and expecting a baby. It seemed like she and her fiancee were at a good place. in their lives. Avis was killed one evening in November 2006 as she arrived home from work. During their investigation, the police soon learned that her loving fiancee was actually having an affair. The crime scene evidence indicated that his partner in the affair, Carla Hughes,

was involved in the murder. Avis Marie Banks was born on August 18, 1979, in Vicksburg, Mississippi. She was 27 years old when she was killed. Avis was the middle of three daughters. Her parents are Deborah and Fred Banks. Avis was described as an intelligent and beautiful young woman. She was the first one in her family to go to college. She studied child development and worked at a local daycare center near Jackson, Mississippi. Jackson. I feel like that's in a song. It is in a song. Yeah, should be. Going to Jackson. Oh, yeah. Johnny. Johnny and June. Yeah.

Is that right? It is. I don't know. It was definitely in Walk the Line. Well, I think it was in their song. Well, it was a real song. Yeah. But it was definitely in there too.

And I was amazed at the singing performances. Because, number one, I didn't think Joaquin could sing. And I really didn't know that Reese Witherspoon could sing either. Yeah. I thought they were both to. very well. I used to do a little Johnny Cash tribute. You did. Back in the day. Inside of a number of prisons. How'd you know? It's, uh, it's been well documented. In 2004, Avis met a man named Keon Pittman,

who was four years older than her. Keon worked as a teacher. Deborah and Fred Banks liked Keon because he seemed well educated, well-mannered, and hardworking. Fred Banks told Dayline, he was the son we never had. And I think Gibbs, you know, his parents, you are kind of looking out for your children as far as who they're dating, who they, you know, might end up living their lives with. Well educated, well-mannered, hardworking. Those are all very good traits. Yeah. And I think any time someone says, as Fred did, he was the son we never had.

It really kind of clues you in on what they thought of this guy. Yeah, as long as they didn't already have a son because then you'd feel like if you were that son, like, wait a minute. You already have a son. What are you trying to say? But then that would mean that they liked him even better. Exactly. Then their actual son. Avis and Keon dated for two years.

Before they got engaged, she and Keon purchased a home in Ridgelon, a suburb of Jackson. They'd been living together for about 10 months. at the time of her death. By November 2006, Avis was five months pregnant. She and Keon were expecting a boy. It was an exciting time in their lives. They were going to host Christmas in their new home.

The wedding was supposed to take place in February. And Avis was supposed to have the baby about a month after that. Man, that's a lot going on. It is a lot going on. But also think about a lot of really big moments in a person's life. You got a new home. Maybe you're, you know, your first home. You're going to get married.

You're going to have a baby. I mean, these are, you know, seminal moments. Yeah. In anyone's life. As mentioned, Kian was a teacher. He worked at Chastain Middle School in Jackson. In August of that year, he started an affair with another teacher named Carla Hughes. Carlo was a 25-year-old first-year language arch teacher.

They started off his friends. but soon started a sexual relationship. And I just wonder how many times it happens that way where, especially in the workplace, you're seeing a person all the time day in, day out, you become friendly. And at some point,

you know, it turns sexual. I'm not saying it's right. Don't get me wrong. No, but obviously it happens. And I think it happens a lot in that setting. The work setting?

The work setting, because you're with that person eight, nine, ten hours a day. You can almost say that sometimes you're with that person more than you are with your partner outside of that, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's kind of how they, what's that phrase? They coined that phrase, uh, well, that's, this is my work wife or this is my work hubby. Oh, yeah. I know what you're talking about.

Which I'm sure never goes great with the real hubby or the real wife. What do you mean that's your work wife? What are you talking about? Oh, I think a lot of people play around with that. Yeah. You know, now, as long as you're not crossing the line, once you cross the line, then Exactly. Obviously, it's no longer, you know, witty banter fun and games.

Carla was born on June 12th, 1981. She was adopted by Linda and Carl Hughes when she was six weeks old. Carla was the daughter of Linda's cousin. Her biological mother was financially unable to take care of all of her children. All right. So she's still being cared for. within the family. Yeah, by someone in the family. And that happens quite a bit. You know, we do see that where a family member steps up to take care of, you know, a child in the family.

And to me, that's very admirable because if not, then what's going to happen? Most likely, she's going into the foster system. And maybe she's adopted by someone else, but you don't know who those people are. Growing up, Carla was a motivated student and participated in as many extracurriculars as she could. I mean, she was into tennis, soccer, track, basketball, cheerleading. She was even a major at in the band. Like you? You like twirling. I know that. I was a twirler. Yeah. She was an honor student and participated in student council, the mayor's youth council, and was a page in the Mississippi state Senate. Well, extremely active.

I mean, I got tired just thinking about a week in her life and how much she had going on. She also competed in the Mississippi's national teen and Miss Teenage America pageants. She loved horseback riding. In 1995, she won a state championship and won six place in the world competition. So that's pretty big. Yeah, it's nothing to sneeze at it. You know, I know that you were big into equestrian. Oh, yeah.

You did a lot of the jumping and the prancing. And I don't know what all they call all that stuff. I know how to saddle up. You did. You could saddle up. So I think what we take away from Carla's background is that she had a lot going for her. I mean, she did seem to be outgoing. She was into a lot of different things.

And it sounds like she was pretty successful. at many of those things. Now, as a young adult, she wanted to follow in her parents' footsteps and become a teacher. She earned honors in college, graduated with a master's degree, and was working on her doctorate at the time of her arrest. Carla was also a mother to a young son. Well, it sounds like professionally, she was headed in the right direction. She's working on a doctorate. Yeah, not easy to get. No. The fact that you've got five or six of them just makes me sick. Thank you, doctor. Just handing out like water. Doctor, doctor. Well, that one website, you know.

Works out pretty well for you? It does. Yeah. Well, the fact that you wanted me to pick up another diploma when I was in Jamaica, that was kind of a red flag. Well, the, uh, college of red stripe means something on my wall. It was said that no one who knew Carla would describe her as a violent person. She didn't have a criminal record. Kiann testified that he started seeing Carla about a month after finding out Avis was pregnant. They met often at Carlos' home and occasionally at his home. They once went on a trip out of town together.

However, he insisted their relationship was just about sex. You heard guys say this? Oh, it was just about sex. I don't think that makes it any easier when you tell your significant other it was just about sex. You're pregnant, significant other. Yeah, that's the thing I got there. He decided after a month after he found out that his pregnant wife, that his wife was pregnant, he decided to have an affair.

Yeah. But don't worry, honey, it's just about sex. There's no person who's going to take that coming from their partner well at all. I've never understood that. It didn't mean anything. It was just about sex. According to Hughes v. State, Keon said Carla remained. in the relationship, even though she knew he was going to marry Avis and knew that Avis was

pregnant with his child. Carla referred to him as her future husband when they were around her friends and relatives, which again, that is very strange. Yeah, that you're hanging out with other people as a couple. And you're referring to this man as your future husband, even though you know he's he's marrying avas and that they're having a child together it's like somebody's reality is not in check yeah i would say that according to keon carla was unhappy that he wouldn't leave avis he repeatedly told her he wasn't going to leave her even when carla thought she was pregnant at one point well that would go over her really well wouldn't it uh to get another woman pregnant while yeah the woman you're marrying is pregnant. I mean, none of this is going to go over well. Let's face it.

One day, Carla told Keon she was driving to his house to tell Avis about the affair, but he threatened to call the police so she stopped. Now, if you're a guy who's messing around, I don't know what could scare you more. Then the person you're messing around with threatening to go to your house and to tell your significant other that you're having an affair. be pretty scary, I think, if you were in those shoes. On November 25th, 2006, Keon and Avis were in Picayune, Mississippi, visiting her family for Thanksgiving. That day, Keon met Carla at a hotel in the city.

Keon wouldn't stay out late to be with her, so their night ended on a bad note, per Hughes versus state. Well, I'm sure it didn't go over well, but what was he going to do? Like, hey. I'm going to just go out by myself. I don't know. I'll be back really, really late. You know, I mean, he wasn't going to, couldn't do that with Avis.

So, I mean, obviously he had in the night early. But get this. I mean, people have affairs. I know they do. It's not right. It happens. But are you telling me you can't keep it in your pants for one visit on Thanksgiving? It sounded like, no, he could not.

He could not. And that, that's just shocking to me, that you have to meet up. with this woman while you're visiting with her family. On November 26, Carla told Keon, from this point on, some things are going to change. Okay. Now, you could take that a number of different ways. Some could be ominous. Maybe it's that, you know, we just can't continue this or, you know, you could put it in darker terms. Kian said they were distant for a few. For a few, days. On November 29th, 2006, Keon dropped groceries off at Carlos House to store them in her refrigerator while he coached basketball practice at the middle school. He left Carlos House around

510, 515 p.m. Practice started at 5.30 and lasted until 7.30, 7.45 p.m. Kian talked to Avis at 512, and again at 536 p.m. when she was driving home from work. after practice, Kian returned to Carlos' house to pick up the groceries and said that he noticed she was unusually quiet. He stayed there for about 20 to 30 minutes and left around 8.30 p.m. I wonder how she liked that he left the groceries for him and Avis at her house for a little bit. Hey, I got these groceries for me in Avis. I'm going to put them in your fridge. Yeah, I don't know. That probably didn't go over very well, especially knowing what. We know, right?

She is wanting him to leave Avis and be with her. Now, this quote of unusually quiet, I'm assuming she wasn't normally quiet. Yeah. And now she's being maybe sulky, sullen. Was it the groceries? Was it that something else had happened? So he laughed around 8.30 p.m. He called Davis on his way home, but she didn't answer.

And I think we've all been in that. position. You call someone, you get voicemail or whatever it is, they don't pick up the phone. You assume they're doing something, they're busy. Maybe they'll call you back or maybe you'll just see them when you get home. Yeah, I'll be home in 10, 15 minutes. I'll see them when I get there. But I think for most people, what you don't imagine is the worst thing possible. No. Because this happens pretty, you know, frequently to a lot of us. But when Keon got home, he opened the garage. And and saw Avis lying in a pool of blood on the floor. He tried to wake her up, but she was unresponsive.

He said he quickly checked the house to see if anyone was there and ran next door for help, a neighbor called 911. All right, well, a little freaky, right? You pull in, open the garage door, and you're going to see that your significant other is laying on the ground in a pool of blood. It would certainly freak me out. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how most people would react.

There's going to be shock, you know, Now, the part I didn't understand was not calling 911 from the house. I didn't understand that. Unless they didn't have phone service. Yeah. I mean, he goes in to the house to check to see if anyone is there. But he runs next door. Yeah.

To a neighbor's house and they call 911. So I'm not making too much of it. I also don't know if I would go running into the house at that point. You know, I mean, yeah, I would. maybe, but I don't know if it's a smart thing for most people to do if somebody could be in there. Yeah, I mean, you're going to Jason Bourne and we all know that, but I get what you're saying. Was he armed? Did he have something that, you know, he was going to use to protect himself from this assailant?

I don't know that. Or was he not thinking straight? Because again, everyone is going to react differently. Well, that's true. And handle this kind of shocking situation in a different. way. The police arrived around 8.45 p.m. Kiann was holding Avis's body in the garage. They ordered him to step away and conducted a search of the property. And this is something you and I have talked about before in a perfect world. You would not want anyone to touch the body, right? The police wouldn't want that.

But if this is your loved one, you know, how many people are going to think about that? You know, how many people are going to think about that. I know I wouldn't. I would rush to my wife and I'd want to hold her in my arms. And I think it's very natural. Now, does it hurt the investigation? Yeah, it possibly could. It does. Yeah. According to the Dateline, Keon was howling with grief when the police arrived and put him in a patrol car. Detective John Neal explained that they were trying to keep him separated from the neighbors and trying to get information from him about where he was when Avis was killed. They asked him to go to the police station to talk. He seemed hesitant, but agreed to do it.

And you could see why they would do this, right? They're going to look at him. Of course, yeah. Very early on. Well, he was personificant other. Yeah. And he was also the person that found the body. So two major reasons.

The police determined that Avis got home between 5.50 and 6 p.m. and was attacked within seconds of closing the garage door. Avis was shot four times in the thigh, left buttocks, chest and head. Three out of four gunshot wounds were fatal. She was stabbed in the face and neck. The stab wounds were non-fatal. And it was thought that they may have occurred after death. Sounds like a brutal attack.

Yeah. And I think if you're talking about the one gunshot that wouldn't be fatal, I'm assuming it was the one in the left buttocks. The other ones could all, and sounds like they were determined that they would have been fatal. Her pants were pulled down, which suggested sexual assault. Her car keys fell beside her hand, which supported the detective's belief that she was killed as soon as she got home. The police noticed that the back door was forced open. There were two shoe prints on the exterior side of the glass door.

There were smears of blood on the wall and the light switch. plate. The door between the house and the garage was open and the sheet rock was dinned where the door knob hit the wall. There was a bullet hole in the lower left corner of the garage door, but no shell casings were found. Sounds like it was sort of messy in there, but also like maybe somebody did a little cleanup if they couldn't find the casing. Well, to, you know, to me, I get what you're saying about, you know, kind of a messy situation. And it would be. I mean, you're shooting someone four times, possibly sexually assaulting them, but then someone had the presence of mind. This perpetrator did to pick up the shell case. Detective John Neal thought

the killer staged a burglary. In the primary bedroom, every other drawer in the dresser was opened. And the suspect went through the bathroom cabinets, which he had never seen in a burglary because people don't usually keep valuables there. Right. Seems very strange. Unless you're looking for some. Drugs or something like that. But then, you know, also if you're going to go through dresser drawers, why not open

them all? Yeah. Why every other one? It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't. And, you know, we hear this time and time again, but, you know, detectives are actually pretty good at, they've been to so many burglary scenes. Right.

They know what. they normally look like. So I think for most of them, it's sometimes easy to spot when something is staged. Because it just doesn't look like the other ones they've seen. Right. And do people keep

medicine and medicine cabinets anymore? I don't think they do. No. We keep ours in like a cabinet in the kitchen. Same here. The only thing I have in a medicine cabinet in the bathroom is like my deodorant and shaving cream and stuff like that. Your hair products.

And all of my hair products from my lustrous hair. It is. Yeah. The police collected a sample of the blood on the light switch plate and took a shoe print impression. Avis's autopsy confirmed she was in her second trimester and was pregnant with a boy. The baby's death was also classified as a homicide. We got a double murder. Investigators determined Avis was killed by a 38 caliber weapon.

They determined that there was no evidence of sexual assault. and they believe the killer pulled Davis's pants down as some type of misdirection, right, a way to throw the investigation off. Well, it sounds like these guys are on it, right? They're saying, you know, was it really a robbery or was it staged to throw us off? Was it really a sexual assault? Kind of looks like it was staged to try to throw us off. So it's going to help them kind of redirect themselves where they need to be.

Yeah, because then you start to think about, well, who would stage a burglary? who would need to stage a sexual assault? I think with what you brought up and then also I think you also have to look at this as who benefits from her being dead. Yeah, no, absolutely. They thought that based on the extreme violence of the attack, the killer knew Avis and had a personal vendetta against her, according to Detective John Neal, Keon was the main suspect. And you could see why when I just talked about who would need to. stage a burglary. Yeah. Not someone there to commit a burglary. There's no need to. But maybe the husband. Okay, you could see trying to throw the police off. Well, it must have been someone who came in to rob the

house and encountered Avis and murdered her. Kian gave a statement at the police station and his hands were tested for gunshot resident. Each hand had a single particle of gunshot residence. Each hand had a single particle of gunshot residue on it. An expert witness later testified that the particles could have come from Avis's body. Well, he did have contact with the body. Yes. And what I'm taking from this is that they would have expected to find much more in the way of gunshot residue if he had been the one to fire. The weapon. The weapon. Detective Frank Dillard was the one who spoke to Keon that night. He was questioned into the early morning hours and he started to become frustrated. And he complained about how he was being treated.

He said that the detective wouldn't let him use the restroom until he bet. Kian believed he was being treated like a suspect because the police tested his hands for gunshot residue and photographed the bloody shirt he was wearing. The police said this was routine procedure. But, I mean, they are kind of treating him like a suspect. I mean, I don't think that's too far off base. No, I think so too. Maybe it's more apt to say they're trying to rule him in or out. Maybe that's a better way to say it.

But I could also see as a husband or soon-to-be husband getting frustrated. I just came home. I found my soon-to-be wife dead and my unborn baby. And my unborn baby. And now you're treating. me as though you think I did it. Yeah. I could see myself getting very agitated by that.

Because you know what you're not doing? You're not out there looking for the real person because I know I didn't do it. Exactly. Wasn't me. Detective Dillard thought it was strange that Keon laughed when he was asked about clothing and shoes he owned. He also cried at various points in the interview. I think laughter would be a little strange.

Right. It doesn't seem like the right time for that. Now, crying during points in the interview, I could see that for sure. When he was asked to sign his Miranda warning, he declined, saying, I'm not going to sign that because you could easily go back and write in charges. So you know what I always say by this point? He should have an attorney. Yeah.

Kian said, I would rather have somebody here because I don't, I really don't like this situation at all. And I feel like I say, it's me by myself and you all keep me from everybody. and y'all saying that I'm innocent, but I'm upstairs away from everybody, and y'all aren't letting anybody in. So that's not boating too well with me right now. And I would have to say, I would agree. I would too. And to your point, Gibbs, he hired a lawyer the next day.

Now, I know what you say. He's waited too long already. But a lot of people in that situation, they just don't think they need a lawyer then. Well, you're also emotionally distraught. You're in shock. There's a lot of emotions going on. Although it was Keon's right to have a lawyer, the detectives thought his behavior was suspicious.

So they started looking into his background. And I think that happens a lot, right? You and I would say get a lawyer. Yeah. But other people would look at the fact that you're even getting a lawyer as kind of putting some suspicion on you. I don't agree with that, but it happened. I don't either.

I mean, we seem to me wrongful conviction. and things like that because people didn't have attorneys. And some had attorneys and still were wrongfully. You're just utilizing your rights. Yeah, exactly. And you know what? He's a suspect? They're going to look into his background either way.

How deep they look, might depend. But either way, they were going to look into his background. Yeah. Well, they found out that he had a part-time job at a bar. They also learned that he was a womanizer. Detective John Neal told Dayline, he wasn't too concerned about what happened under his, own roof because he knew that Avis wasn't going to keep a very close watch on him.

He was able to work the second job to have girlfriends come by and visit him there without any kind of fear. He was able to go out of town on weekends with or without Avis and still carry on relationships outside of his relationship with Avis. Doesn't make him a great guy, but doesn't mean he's a murderer. No, absolutely correct. But if you're the police, you're going to want to look into that a little further because motive it doesn't yeah it doesn't look great employees at the school told the police that keon had several girlfriends one of whom was carla hughes detective frank dillard spoke to carla at the school on december 1st 2006 dillard told dateline that carla was crying hysterically during their first conversation she said she was crying because of what happened to keon's

fiance in her first statement she said said she and Keon were just friends. Carla agreed to go to the police station. She made another statement and admitted she and Keon had a sexual relationship. See, that's the problem, right? You say, hey, we're just friends, man. And then later you come back and say, well, we did have sex. Yeah.

You don't think it's going to come out. Why not just be honest? Yeah. But I get it. People don't want to admit things that they're doing that aren't right. Although Carla acknowledged the relationship, she made it seem like it was just a fling. People might have seen them kissing, but in her words, it was not a full outblown romantic love affair.

She said she and Keon had a special friendship and that Avis knew about her and didn't seem to mind. If he and Carla went out together, he would call Avis and tell her he was with her. Okay, my bullshit meter just went through the roof. Yeah, I think it spiked several times. Yeah, I mean, that just doesn't sit right with me. I'm sure it doesn't sit right with anyone listening. You're not even married yet.

You're engaged. You're set to be married. You're pregnant with this guy's child. But you're okay with him having this special friendship. And I'm using my air quotes here and going out with this woman. I think maybe he said, hey, I'm going out with some people from from work. That could be. And maybe he said, oh, I told her she's good with it.

Yeah. Maybe. Or she's making it into something that it wasn't. Right. Detective Neal later told Dateline that witnesses said Carla and Keon acted like a couple. Even students knew about their relationship. Detective Neal said they used students as personal messengers and texted throughout the day. So, you know, I think if you're doing stuff like this.

Number one, you're not being that careful. You're not really trying to hide it. No. Why stay in a relationship with somebody else if that's not what you want? It seems like it's not what you want. But see, I get the sense here that Keon wanted it all. I think so. I mean, they said he was a womanizer.

Yeah. That's not me. The detective said that. He had a lot of different girlfriends. I think he was a player. and he wanted to play the field, even though he was set to get married and had a child on the way. Carla gave a statement about what she did that evening. She said, Keon stopped at her house around 4.40 to store some groceries.

He left at 5.10 and called her around 615 to 620. He got back to her house around 7.50, stayed for about 45 minutes and then went home. The next time he called her, he was screaming and told her she needed to come. come over saying something happened somebody hurt avis well some pretty detailed timeline there it is it is it is it's also strange that you call your girlfriend after you find out that your fiancee has been hurt it's somewhat strange yeah after carla wrote her statement detective dillard asked her if she owned a gun or had access to a gun carla said no meanwhile avis's family was starting to become suspicious of Keon. However, Avis's older sister thought a woman was the killer. Possibly a woman

Kian had been seen. They suspected something was going on because Kian was distant at Thanksgiving. It was talking on the phone a lot. He either spoke quietly or went outside so no one could hear him. He told the family he was talking to his mother about a family issue. You know, it's always, I don't want to say a red flag, but it's eye-catching. When you see somebody at a family get-together that constantly on their phone and, you know, you see them, you know, on the phone, but in a faraway setting. Yeah. It would be, like, I put myself in that position.

It would be very strange for me to do that. Yeah. Because everybody that I really probably want to talk to is at this family. Exactly. You know, so who am I talking to? And if it's not your norm, it's definitely going to stand out, you know, that why is Mike over there in a corner talking to somebody? Well, and if I'm talking to my mom, why do I need to sneak off?

Exactly. At this point in your life. Yes. But it's very interesting that Avis's older sister already at this point has the thought that it's a woman who is possibly the killer. Because that could be a reason for the staged sexual assault. A woman who wants the police to believe that it was a man. A man. The family found a text on Avis's phone that hinted that the relationship was in a rough place. According to the dateline, it said, I'm doing everything I can to make it work and it will work, but how would you feel if I was on the phone

all night. I think a lot of people would not be happy in a relationship if their significant other was texting somebody else all night long. No, no, not at all. On December 5th, 2006, Detective Frank Dillard got a call from an attorney who said he had a 38 revolver. He wanted to turn in and a witness who had information about the murder. The witness was Carla's cousin Patrick Nash. Nash would later testify that Carla asked to borrow a gun on November 26, claiming she needed it for protection because of attempted break-ins. He loaned her a 38 caliber Rossi with five bullets inside it and a folding hunting knife. He showed Carla how to use the gun and did not give her additional ammo. Well, here's a smart individual seeking an attorney and having the attorney get a hold of the police and saying,

hey, we kind of feel like maybe this could be a weapon used, and we want to make sure it doesn't come back on my guy. But tough, right? Tough to sometimes turn in or turn on a family member. But it's the right thing to do. Well, look, eventually they could potentially tie the gun back to you. Yeah. And then you're going to be screwed.

Now, Carla returned the gun on December 1st, but that was less than an hour after her interview with the police. Nash noticed that the gun was empty. Carla never did return the night. So I can see why this guy was a little suspicious, right? You need the gun for protection. Well, what happened to the five bullets? Yeah.

Where are they? And he soon started to bleed. Carla was involved in the murder because she called him on the night of November 29th and mentioned that Keon's girlfriend was killed. Carla's uncle James Nash later asked her if the gun was involved in the murder. As quoted by Hughes v. State, James testified that Carla, quote, kind of dropped her head and shrugged her shoulders. And I took that to be, I really don't know, or affirmative. Neither one of those is good. Obviously, affirmative is really bad. But if you don't know whether

it was used, that's not good either. It's almost saying, yes. I think that's what he was saying. On December 6th, Carla was called in for more question. She brought a lawyer with her. Her attorney was Johnny Walls Jr., a former state senator and a family friend. Detective Dillard took Johnny Walls aside and encouraged him to get a confession out of Carla because they still thought Keon was the killer. A hidden camera recorded Wall's conversation with Carla. The following quotes come from Dayline. Walls told Carla, they are absolutely convinced that it's him. And they don't understand why you're trying to protect him. Carla said, why is it that I got to be trying to protect him?

Walls responded because they think you know something. She asked him what they could charge her with and Walls told her accessory after the fact. He told her she could prevent charges if she implicated Keum. Carla said, I mean, if I don't, if I wasn't there when he did it, then I just wasn't there when he did it. I can't make myself say he did it if I don't know. I just know he wasn't with me. Carla was arrested and charged with accessory after the fact. Detectives thought that putting Carla in jail would get her to turn on Keon. They had a hard time believing she could be the killer, but they didn't have enough evidence to charge him.

So I see the tactic, right? It's one thing to, you know, be sitting in a room with detectives. That's tough enough. But when you get charged and you get sent to jail, I think the stakes get a little higher. Yeah, it's like just turn the heat up a little bit. So is it more likely than that, you know, she would turn on him? I would say, yes, could happen. On December 8th, detectives searched Carlos House and seized a pair of women's shoes.

a photo of Keon Pittman and a handwritten note with the initials KP on it. The shoes had blood on them and had a similar tread pattern to the shoe prints from the crime scene. Both the shoes and the gun were sent to the Mississippi crime line. Now, what is one thing that we always talk about when it comes to shoes? If you wore shoes to a crime scene where you killed someone and you knew you walked around in blood, and these shoes had blood on them. Why would you then just put these shoes away in your home somewhere? That makes no sense to me.

It doesn't. I mean, even if they were my favorite Air Jordans, my favorite Air Force ones, originals. Originals. Those things would be burnt or at the bottom of a lake somewhere. Now, obviously, we're glad that these people are not smart enough to do that because it helps get them caught. But it's also hard to understand that someone can't get that through their head.

that this is not something that I just put back in the closet. The lab confirmed that the tread pattern matched, the shoe print impressions from the crime scene, and that the blood on the shoes belong to Avis. Testing also determined that the bullets from Avis's body matched the 38 Rossi turned in by Patrick Nash. Okay. Now, we talk about evidence a lot.

How good is it? Circumstantial, flimsy. you know, this is neither. I mean, this is really solid evidence. The shoes were found in her house. They're her shoes. Yeah. And they have Avis's blood on them. The ballistics match a weapon that was known to have been in her possession. Carlo was charged with two counts of capital murder that same day. Keon remained a suspect until cell phone records. And witnesses confirmed he was at the middle school at the, time of the murder. Sounds like Carla's crude now.

Well, you know, we talk about cell phone records hurting people. But you know, they can also eliminate you as a suspect as well. So you got the cell phone records, I think coupled with eyewitnesses, obviously. Yeah. That's, that's pretty good stuff. According to Hughes versus state, cell records showed that at 537 p.m., Carla answered a call within range of a cell tower near Avis and Keon's home. At 6.04 p.m., she placed a call within the range of the same cell town.

At 6.07 p.m., she placed a call outside the range of the cell tower. Just seems like, and good thing she didn't, seems like Carla just didn't know the basics, but things not to do if you're going to commit a crime like this. Yeah. Well, she's a school teacher. I don't think she was a career criminal. We said she didn't have a criminal record. You know, she was trying to do something that she had no business doing. Nobody has any business doing, but she had no way to get out of it. She didn't have the skills, the knowledge. At 607, Avis Banks last call took place at 5.36 p.m. in an area consistent with her driving home from work. investigators believe she was killed between 5.50 and 6 p.m., which put Carla in the area at the time of the murder. So we've seen where cell records help someone, and now Carla's cell records are hurting her. All of Keon Pittman's calls between 512 and 7.18 p.m. were associated with cell towers near Carla's house and the school, but not his home.

his calls between 841 and 856 were associated with the cell tower near his home. So again, kind of eliminating him from being at the murder scene, not eliminating, because you could leave a cell phone. You could. But, and somebody else could make the calls. But along with eyewitnesses, you could see why they wouldn't think it was him. The police also learned that Keon called another woman before he called 911 that night. Dateline didn't specify if this woman was Carla Hughes.

So we know he called Carla. If he called another woman, another girlfriend, I just think it ups the womanizer quotient there. Yeah, I think he was a big player. Yeah. Now, he might not be a killer, but he doesn't come off in this story as being a very good guy. You'd have to say that.

The police thought it was suspicious that Carla spoke to Keon minutes after Avis was killed. Detective John Neal told Dayline, we think that he's had conversations with Carla prior to coming home that night to where she indicated to him what she had done, probably in an attempt for the two of them to be together. Now, that is interesting. You can imagine that phone call if it took place. I just killed Avis. Now we can be together. Yeah. Finally. You have no other excuse. As if that's something that he wanted to happen. Yeah. If he wanted that, he would have already made that happen, right? I think at one point he told her he wanted to stay with Avis. Detectives knew that Keon went to Carla's house after coaching basketball practice that evening and left

at 8.30 p.m. At 8.31 p.m., Keon called Deborah Banks on his way home to ask if she'd heard from Avis. Deborah said this was extremely out of character for Keon. Well, it might have been the fact that when he talked to Carla, Carla might have told him what happened and now he's just trying to cover his own ass. No, I think that's what the detectives are getting at. Detective John Neal said, I felt like certainly that he knew at that point. In early 2007, it was reported that Keon was considered a suspect because

he wouldn't answer questions during Carla's preliminary hearing on January 2nd. He answered questions about what he was doing on the day of the murder and admitted to having a relationship with Carla, but he wouldn't say where he was or what he did after 5 p.m. on November 29th, 2006. And why Gibbs would he not want to do that? And my thought is he didn't want it to come out that he already knew that Avis was. was that he had talked to Carla, that she had relayed that information to him.

Yeah, would that make him accessory after the fact? I don't know. I don't know if it would, but he didn't relay that information to police. So maybe they could charge him with obstruction at the very least. I mean, one thing I do know,

he's got to think that if he didn't mess around, Davis would never been killed. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, where's the blame sit? But he didn't pull the trigger or anything like that, but he has some culpability. Sure. And everything that happened. At the end of the hearing, the judge found enough evidence to send the case to a grand jury. Detective spent a lot of time trying to work with Carla. The DA's office didn't want to charge Keon with anything at that point because they didn't think they could successfully prosecute him. Carla wouldn't implicate him and she wouldn't take a plea deal. On February 14th, 2008, detectives sent her a copy of a marriage certificate showing that

Keon got married and left the state. They hoped this would finally get her to confess. But all she said was, I'm not surprised. So you married somebody else? Yeah, a couple of years later. She said, I'm not surprised. I'm not that surprised either. I mean, if he had that many girlfriends,

Okay. Eventually one was going to tie him down. Eventually, he was going to get married. The grand jury started hearing evidence in the case on February 7th, 2007. On February 26th, prosecutors announced they were going to seek the death pill. Carla's trial was originally scheduled for January 2008, but it was postponed when a new DA took office. On July 30th, 2008, Carlo was indicted by the grand jury on two counts of capital murder. Carla's trial was then supposed to start in February 2009, but that month it was delayed for the fourth time. Jury selection finally started on September 28, 2009. Testimony started on October 5th. Prosecutors argued that Carla killed Avis Banks so she could be with Keon Pittman. According to CNN, Madison County Deputy DA John Mfinger told the jury, she took Avis Banks' life and the life of her unborn child because she wanted that life.

Carla's defense attempted to implicate Keon in the murder. As reported by CNN, the defense portrayed Keon as a womanizer seeking to avoid the burden of fatherhood. And to me, it's always fascinating to really kind of take a look and dissect, you know, the prosecution's theory. And then what the defense puts forward in response, right? The prosecution is saying Carla killed Davis because she wanted that life. She wanted what Avis had, which was to be with Keon Pittman. Yeah. The defense is saying, you know, this was Keon.

He was a player. He didn't want to be a father. He wanted to get out of that. Kian was one of the main witnesses at trial. According to NBC, he testified that he thought his relationship. with Carla was a sexual adventure. That might be true, but he sure didn't go out of his way to hide it. No, I mean, you know, I think a lot of people who have affairs go to great lengths to not let

anybody else find out about him. It almost seems like Keon Pittman was not worried about the repercussions of other people knowing, which is very strange to me. He testified that he was never going to leave Avis for Carla, saying per dayline, there was no long term. It was sexual. Caught up in the moment, speaking of myself, there was never a long term plan with Carla. He felt like Carla was taking things too seriously. She insisted that he meet her parents and introduced him as her future husband to other people.

After Carla thought she was pregnant, she started stalking him. and threatened to tell Avis about the affair. Deputy DA John Mfinger asked Keon if he felt any responsibility for Avis's death. He said yes, telling the court, if I would have stayed faithful to who I was with, if I hadn't been thinking poorly, making bad choices, or made a bad choice to sleep around and flirt with other women, this chain of events would have never taken place, probably. I think that goes back to what you were talking about.

I mean, he's even admitting that, you know, he bears some responsibility. I agree. He maintained that he had no personal knowledge about who killed Avis. Defense attorney Johnny Walls argued that Carla was set up. Kian had a key to her home. He knew she had her cousin's gun in the nightstand and knew that he could fit into a pair of her shoes because he had borrowed them in the past. Walls alleged that he wanted to get rid of Avis and didn't want the baby.

I mean, how big are this guy's feet that he can fit into his girlfriend's shoes? Maybe she has big feet or maybe he has small feet or maybe they're just meat in the middle. Okay. That seems very logical. I know. I'm a logical type of guy. You are. But I definitely get what the defense is trying to say here.

The defense alleged that Keon planted the evidence because Carl's fingerprints were not found in the home. This was confirmed by Detective Frank Dillon. According to Walls, the police dog failed to detect a stranger's scent at the crime scene. Walls also pointed out that the police did not check Keon's clothing for gunpowder residue, even though they found it on his hands. He told the jury that the cell records were meaningless because Carter lived less than four miles from the crime scene and was outrunning errands that evening. The cell tower zone covered a...

two and a half mile radius. Walls noted that Keon only called Davis twice, even though he said he was worried about her, he told the jury that on November 29th, Keon was flirting with the mother of one of the basketball players and had also texted this woman. Finally, Walls argued that Keon was the one who pursued Carla and constantly called her. So I can definitely see what the defense is doing here. I get it. they're trying to plant in the minds of the jury that, hey, this could possibly be Keon. Could there be some reasonable doubt that he wore Carla's shoes? He killed Davis.

And then he put the shoes back in Carla's house, put the gun back in there. You could make that claim. Yeah, they did. It's going to be up to the jury, right, to buy it. He's trying to blow holes in the cell phone data and all that. And he's definitely going out of his way to, you know, paint Keon as a, as a womanizer, which I don't think anybody disputes the fact that he was. Yeah, I think he definitely was that.

But like you said, there is a difference between, you know, being a bad partner, being a bad person and being a killer. Yeah, I think there's a lot of bad partners, a lot of bad people who don't kill. That don't kill. Yeah. A witness testified that Keon was not inside the gym for the entire basketball practice. However, this witness was impeached because earlier he told the police that Keon was present during the entire practice. A friend of Carla's who also lived in the range of the cell tower near Avis and Keon's home testified that Carla did not visit her house that night.

Carla Hughes was convicted of two counts of capital murder on October 13, 2.2. 2009. On October 14th, the jury recommended life in prison instead of the death pill. Linda and Carl Hughes pleaded with the jury to spare her life. Carl Hughes said per CBS, Carla has been a kind, loving person all her life. I'm not asking you, I'm pleading with you to spare my daughter's life because as the past has shown, she's been very kind to a lot of people. She's a kind person. I just don't understand. I just don't understand it all.

That's not her. Man, this has to be tough for her parents. Oh, it had to be heartbreaking. Because this is not a person who has killed 25 people over a span of 20 years, right? It's not some serial killer that people are just finding out about. This is a person who, you know, they've known essentially her entire life. they know her character and they just can't figure out how she could have done this. Carla's pastor and friends also spoke at the sentencing hearing about her being a mentor for

young people and volunteering at her church and school. Johnny Walls also told the jury per WLBT, if you decide to kill her, there's nothing you can do to bring her back. And if you later determine that someone else committed this crime, you won't be able to correct. that. And that is a very true statement. I mean, you and I have talked about that on a number of occasions, you know, with the number of false convictions and all of that. The death penalty,

to me, has taken on a much different light over the past five, ten years. I just think there's less certainty in the minds of many people. They might have enough there to find someone guilty. but are they as certain to the point where they're ready to put someone to death as maybe they would have been 10, 15, 20 years ago? And I'm saying, I don't, I don't think so in some situations. Deputy DA John Mfinger spoke for the prosecution. According to CNN, he said, in my mind, this overshadows everything else she's done in life. She took the lives of two people in that garage. When that door opened, Avis Banks was not met by a beauty pageant winner. She was not met by a member of the mayor's youth council.

She was not met by a peacemaker. She was met by a stone cold killer. And that's absolutely correct. You can see both sides of this. Sure you can. Okay. She may have done all these great things in her life. But killing a woman and her unborn child wipes all of that away.

sure does. It overshadows it, just like he said. Carla received two concurrent life sentences. In 2010, Detective John Neal told Dateline, we know without a shadow of a doubt that we have the person in jail serving a life term who killed Avis Banks. We're absolutely confident in that 100%. Our angle on Keon Pittman is some type of an accessory, aided her in setting it up,

or at the very least, knew before he got to the house. house that she had been murdered. And I think that's a pretty big statement on the part of, you know, this detective. It is. They've hinted at it. But now he's coming out and saying one of the other. Yeah. And the one is what they've talked about already, which is he knew before he got to the house that Avis was dead. But the other one is that he may have been involved in helping her to set this thing up. Carla also spoke to Dateline and said, that is one of the biggest or the biggest misconceptions about this case, that I know something that I could tell the police.

I have a five-year-old son who was two at the time. And if there was anything that I could have told the police, you can believe that I would have told them from day one. I did not know anything about it and I didn't participate in it. I was ultimately framed and used. And that's all I do know. So no doubt, she is claiming absolute innocence. Yeah. Well, if that's true, it's really sad. Oh, it would be sad if she had nothing to do with it.

But with the evidence provided, it's pretty hard to... The dispute. To think that's the case. Carla's appeal to the Mississippi Supreme Court was denied on June 21st, 2012. She argued that there were no witnesses linking her to the shooting and no evidence she fired the gun. The Mississippi Supreme Court determined that prosecutors established a motive and cell phone records put her in the vicinity of the home. In April 2016, Carla's mother, Linda Hughes, set up a go-get funding account for her daughter to raise money for her defense. She wrote, Carla was framed and is also a victim of Dr. Stephen Haynes' testimony. Now, we haven't talked about this guy yet. Hane is a forensic pathologist who testified for the state at Carlos Trial.

He testified that Avis was shot four times and stabbed at least three times, but he believed she was already dead when she was stabbed. During the penalty phase, he testified that Avis would have been conscious for 15 to 20 minutes during at least two gunshot wounds, except for the gunshot wound to the back of the head. She was likely shot in the thigh first, then the left buttocks, chest, and then the head. He believed she was shot twice when she was already on the ground. The GoGet funding page notes that Hain was the subject of the Innocence Project's formal records request to determine how much Hain used state labs for autopsy misconduct.

According to the Clarion Ledger's 2016 article, Hain does not have a National Board certification in forensic pathology. He was criticized for performing 1,500 autopsies a year. In 2008, Mississippi dropped him from the list of recommended pathologists and the Mississippi Supreme Court has overturned convictions or ordered a new trial in some cases where he testified. So that's not good, you know, when he was a major. witness in the case. I want to go back to 1,500 autopsies a year. That's a lot. It's almost five a day.

Yeah. Seven days a week. But sure how good of a job you can do when you're doing that many. That seems like a lot. Haines said that the state Supreme Court sent some cases with his testimony back to the lower courts, but he was not found guilty of any misconduct. Linda also claimed that Carla's defense attorney did not hire a PI for her case, right? writing, Carla was represented by an experienced tobacco litigation attorney who appears to have had the majority of experiences in civil law. He was also a family friend. While Carla's family paid dearly for her legal representation during the lower court trial

and the appeal, they have exhausted their resources. I don't know if I'd want a tobacco litigator. Yeah. Representing you in a murder trial? No, I don't think so either. Yeah. But he wasn't appointed. They picked him, right, because he was a family friend.

Now, I get what they're trying to do. They're trying to lay out everything they can to say, you know, she didn't get a fair trial. She didn't get good representation. The page states that it is of utmost important to find individuals with knowledge of capital laws. Carla Hughes has maintained her innocence and she was arrested. Her family does not believe she is capable of such a horrific crime. detectives have stated their belief that Keon possibly had knowledge of the murder. It is possible that if Carl is withholding information, she may come forward in the future

to implicate someone else in the murder of Avis Banks and her unborn son. And that's always possible. Now is the thought that the person that she would come forward on would be Keon? you know, it does seem to me that detectives are still very leery of him, thinking that at the very least, he talked to Carla, knew that Avis was dead, and possibly even had a hand in planning it, or more. Yeah, but at this point, is there any reason why she would want to protect him? You know, I don't know why she would.

She can't be still holding a torch for him. you know, he married someone, he moved out of state, he testified against her at trial. I mean, if she had information that would change her circumstances, and she kind of said it there, right? She had a son who was two at the time. He was five when she gave that interview. Right. If there was something that I could say, I would say.

Exactly. So I think that would still hold true about somebody else. And so my thought is she just doesn't have it. No. Or she would use it to get out to be with her son. You would think. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, you know, we've talked about similar cases before. And it never fails to boggle my mind that, you know, people can think that this is the right answer to this problem that they, I guess, or have.

or they perceive they're having. I mean, this is somebody at work. Now, she might have thought it was much more serious because there was a lot of hinting at that. This is my future husband. It sounds like he definitely did not. He thought this was a, in his words, sexual adventure. And it sounds like he was having those adventures with many other women as well.

I understand, you know, being in love. And love can make you do some. strange things. You know, we've all been there. But for it to make you or have you get to the point where you want to kill someone. Yeah. Just so you can be with a specific person. That I can't comprehend.

I just don't know how your mind gets to that point where you think, yep, this is the option. Right. This is going to solve all my priorities. And it doesn't sound like this, he was a great guy anyway. No, it doesn't. Now, maybe she knew all that. Maybe she didn't. Obviously, she knew he was cheating on Avis with him, with her.

Did she know that he had all these other girlfriends as well or, you know, that I don't know. But it's just, it's a head scratcher because you just can't figure out how a woman who, you know, seemingly had a great childhood, was very bright, very, very, accomplished could get to this point where she thought this is what I need to do. Well, love can do strange things to people. Yeah. No, it absolutely can. But most of the time, the strange things don't equate to murder.

Unfortunately, we know too often they do. Yeah. But that's it for our episode on Carla Hughes. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi, guys. I'm a long-time listener.

And I love your show. and I love the way you present the material. But I did want to point out that the title of Bart Whitaker's book would be the pronunciation of the name in that title would be Foucault, not Foucault. It's a French name is a philosopher. Foucault is the way you would pronounce it. It's rather a pretentious title. That's all. Team Givie here, but I love you both.

Thanks. Bye. You know what? I'm glad she pointed at that. out because you were going to i yeah i have like why does he not say fu-cule it's shocking that you don't correct me as the episode is going on you take credit for knowing it after somebody has corrected me i'm just saying i think it's very telling has nothing to do with the fact that she is team gibby i'm just saying that yeah i thought the same thing yeah i'm sure you did and is it shocking that i would

mispronounce that no no not at all not at all Now, I'm assuming that will never come up in any other story that we do, but if it does, what are the chances that I'm going to remember that correct pronunciation? I'll try to remind you. Okay. It'd be great if you would do it as we're doing the episode. Thank you. Okay.

Hi, Mike. Hi, Gabi. This is Tamil in Louisville, Texas. I was calling because I had a couple of case suggestions. One was a few months ago. We had a Lewisville woman who stabbed her husband and then later. drove into the pond with her kids. And then recently a murder trial had just commenced for one of the suspects.

Her name's Elisa Dyke. She had a living younger boyfriend and a wife, and they came home to a 23-year-old who they'd been stabbed. But I just thought those cases were pretty interesting. Maybe you can find some extra information to make an episode about it. Anyways, I love the show. Keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking. Bye.

All right. much for the voice mound those do sound like interesting cases we'll definitely check them out seems like a lot going on in that small time yeah yeah but you know we say that about a lot of places yeah we do it doesn't matter how big there's there's things going on all over that's why you have to keep your head on a swivel exactly we had no mailbag this week so that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and gibby stay safe and keep your own time ticking