True Crime All The Time - Carlton Dotson

Episode Date: June 20, 2022

In 2003, Carlton Dotson was a player on the Baylor University basketball team when he shot and killed his friend and teammate Patrick Dennehy. Carlton claimed that he was hearing voices, was the son of God, and had knowledge of who would and who would not get into heaven. He also claimed that Patrick was about to harm him so he had to kill him.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Carlton Dotson and the murder of Patrick Dennehy. It is thought to be one of the few, if not the only, instance of a college athlete murdering a fellow teammate. Carlton appeared to be battling some type of serious mental illness. But, the resulting investigation uncovered NCAA rules violations, an attempted cover-up by a high-level coach, possible drugs in the program, and some individuals who people believe may have played a role in the murder. This is a case where the motive for the murder seems very murky and may leave you asking the question; why did Carlton Dotson really murder Patrick Dennehy.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 288 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, I'm doing good about yourself. Doing great. You and I are sitting in brand new chairs that we bought for the studio since you ripped yours and we were forced to buy new ones. I did not rip my chair. You blamed it on my daughter who never sits in that chair.

You're the only one that sits in it. I don't know who did it. It looked like Wolverine went at it. It did. It really did. But the new chairs are awesome. We're trying to get the settings down. Yeah.

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Randy Crandall. Hey, Randy. Anne Hammonds. What's going on, Ann? No likey. No likey. Jim.

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And last but not. least Kevin Roberts. Hi, Kevin. So we appreciate that. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Jennifer Stoddard. Well, thank you, Stoddard. So we appreciate all the Patreon support. We had some great PayPal donations from Lynn Wilson. Hey, Lynn. Jackie Fage. What's happening, Fage? And Becky Delapaz. Delapots. All right. So thanks to everyone. We also had a Patreon winner for May, and that was Elisa Barnes. Hey, congratulations. Gibbs right now on Unsolved. We have an episode out on a serial killer that has been called Bible John. That's a good case. It takes place in the late 60s. We're headed up to one of your favorite places, Scotland.

Yeah. I've been wanting to go to Scotland for a long time now. I've never been, but it's definitely on my list. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I'm ready. We're talking about a case that involves murder. college basketball, scandal. You know my love for college basketball. It's by far my favorite sport. So, you know, when I saw this case, man, I really got intrigued. Right. Patrick Deney was just 21 years old when he was murdered by his close friend, Carlton, Dotson, the two young men were both talented basketball players at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. And as far as I could tell Gibbs, this is the only instance in NCAA history where a student athlete was convicted of murdering another

student athlete. I looked, I couldn't find any other example. So, you know, if this is the only one, that's kind of shocking. It is. When you think about it. Now, obviously, there have been a lot of athletes who have murdered, a lot of high profile athletes, but, you know, most of them have been either professional athletes or former college, no longer in college. But you also in this case have the added element of a person murdering like their teammate. Yeah. The murder of Patrick Dennehy also exposed major NCAA violations and corruption at Baylor University. So there's a lot going on in this case. Obviously, I was intrigued when I started looking into it. You know, Baylor is a basketball powerhouse. It is. nowadays. They just won the championship a couple years ago. Patrick Dennehy was born on January 28th,

1982. He was originally from Santa Clara, California. Patrick lived with his mother, Valerie Brabazon. His stepfather, Brian Brabazon, and his sister went. Patrick was close to a sister. You know, they spent a lot of time together. But he didn't grow up playing basketball. And you hear this about a lot of kids. Patrick didn't start playing basketball until he was 13 years old. Yeah. But he learned very quickly. And as a lot of us develop, he developed a dream of becoming an NBA player. But I can, you know, think of a lot of like all time great basketball players. Right. Who didn't even start playing until, you know, well into their team later in life. Yeah, they played soccer. They played this. They played that.

And then once they picked up a basketball, it was like, oh, this person's really good. Yeah. Now, by the seventh grade, Patrick was already six three. So, I mean, I think that alone is probably going to maybe force you out of some sports. Yeah. And, and push you towards basketball where obviously height is a key factor. Sure. You know, it doesn't help.

I don't think as much in soccer, baseball, you know, some of the other sports. obviously basketball height is pretty big big time pretty critical right yeah and it got the attention of the coaches at wilcox high and you've got a seventh grader who's six three all right you think the coach might say hmm we should take a look at this kid yeah when can we get him on our team patrick's house was across the street from the school so you know coaches could see him they encouraged him to keep practicing so that he could make the team Patrick made the jv team in the ninth grade. And that on its own is a pretty good feat. It is. You know, most ninth graders play freshman basketball. But if you're really good, you can make the JV team. You could make the

varsity if you were really, really good. Right. But, you know, for Patrick, this was the first time ever playing organized basketball. So that, that is kind of amazing. Patrick's varsity coach, Josu Valenzuela, told the Washington Post that Patrick was shy at first, but he had, obvious talent. Sometimes he lacked respect for authority. And when he finally made the varsity team, he had a number of conflicts with some of his teammates. Patrick eventually transferred to St. Francis High School. But during his junior year, he injured his knee and he wasn't able to play for most of his senior season. That's really tough. It is really tough. And, you know, those knee injuries can be career ending for many. They can. They can. I mean, really tough for a kid.

who's good and is eyeing, let's say, you know, a college scholarship, very tough to get injured in your junior year and be injured during your senior year. He worked summer jobs at Jamba Juice and Great America. The Mercury News reported that Nelson Washington, Patrick Summer League coach, said later at his funeral service, he was the tallest person I've ever seen make a smoothie in my life. It was like six foot 10. Yeah, he grew to be six foot 10 as an adult. So even though he was injured, he was good enough to be accepted to the University of New Mexico. And he played on their basketball team for two years. He played in 33 games his freshman year. He only started one of those. But during his sophomore year, he started 28 out of 30 games. And his points per game average

went from 2.5 to 10.6. He became a top player at New Mexico. Yeah, that's a healthy average. 10.6. I mean, as a sophomore, you think you're just going to get better, right? Your junior, then your senior year. I remember when I used to score,

you know, something like 32 points per game. Sure. Yeah, it was on a Nerf rim attached to the door of your bedroom, but, and you were playing against yourself. but it was still a healthy average. It was. I love slam dunking up against that door. In 2002, Patrick was dismissed from the New Mexico team for losing his temper.

Basically during a game against Air Force, he walked off the court and abandoned his team with less than four minutes left in the game. It's a no-no, man. In organized team sports, coaches don't like it. Your fellow teammates are not going to like it. It was said that he was angry about a pass. that he got from a teammate and the two got into an argument. The Washington Post wrote that Coach Fran Frasilla said that Patrick's team got upset with him

basically for acting like a jerk. According to Jessica De La Rosa, now Jessica Marlowe, who was Patrick's girlfriend of almost two years, Patrick went through what she called a religious transformation in the summer of 2002. he decided that he wanted to play for a Christian school. But he needed a scholarship because he couldn't afford tuition on his own. But you got to think, Gibbs, here's a six foot 10 guy averaging almost 11 points at a good school. New Mexico is a good basketball school. He's going to get some attention.

Patrick was soon recruited by coach David Bliss from Baylor University. Bliss got the job at Baylor in 1999. because at that point in time, Gibbs, they weren't that good back then. Baylor was not a powerhouse like they are today. So they were hoping that Bliss was going to turn the program around. He had coached at Oklahoma, SMU, and New Mexico. And he was a pretty well-known Division I coach. He would amass over 500 win.

Impressive. That's a pretty good number. His plan was to recruit talented players from all over the country to help improve the Baylor team because like I said, they'd been struggling for a number of years. Bliss talked Patrick Denneit into transferring with the scholarship, housing, and a car. Okay. The scholarship and housing, that's pretty normal. Right.

That's allowed under the rules. What is not allowed is a car or other enticements such as that. But it happened. And it happens probably today somewhat. Oh, you know, in football right now, people are talking about buying kids and I'm not naive man I you know college sports is worth billions of dollars it is so to think that somebody would do something to gain an edge we know it happens because people get caught all the time sure what we don't know is who doesn't get caught

and how much of it really goes on Patrick was sold he thought you know playing a bailer would get him more exposure, which could help him, you know, get to the NBA. Patrick told his family and girlfriend that Bliss helped him get a Chevy Tahoe, which is nice, man. Those Tahos are not cheap. No. That's a nice ride. I mentioned it, right?

He wanted to get to the NBA. He also had dreams of paying for his sister's college, buying his mom a new house. So Patrick transferred to Baylor for the 2002, 2003 school year. year. Per the NCAA rules at the time, he had two redshirt for one year. He had to sit out to be eligible, which is how it worked back then. Today, since COVID, I think every college athlete gets one transfer. They started that during COVID.

But they don't have to sit out. Nope. No more sitting out a year, which was the big deal. That's why a lot of kids didn't transfer because they didn't want to have to sit out an entire year and basically do nothing but practice. Yeah, they want that play time, you know. It was said that the Baylor team liked Patrick. He was known as a friendly and funny guy. It was at Baylor that Patrick met Carlton Dotson, another transfer student recruited by David Bliss. And the two became really good friends. According to the New York Times,

Carlton and Patrick both came from broken families. They bonded over things like rap and movies. They were always seen goofing off together. And, you know, each of these men had good things to say about the other. Yeah, it seemed like they really liked each other. Yeah. They really became essentially best friends. Carlton Dotson was originally from Herlock, Maryland. William Dolson, Carlton's stepbrother spoke to the 2017 disgraced documentary. And he, and he was talking about, you know, their hometown of Herlock. He said it was not a good place to live. And it was a place that people usually couldn't wait to get away from.

So I'm not disparaging Herlock. This is what this guy said about it. But I'm sure there are many places or people, you know, develop those feelings. I don't like this place. Maybe it's too small. I can't wait to get out of here. Or maybe there's too much crime or whatever it may be. This town's not for me.

Carlton attended North Dorchester High School. and he played for the school's basketball team. According to his stepbrother, Carlton was the team leader. He said he was basically our LeBron James. Okay. When you compare a guy to LeBron James, you're saying he's the dude. Yeah. On that team.

Right. He said everyone knew they were going to see Carlton on TV one day. Carlton led his team to the Maryland 1A boys title and the first ever state championship in the 1998, 1999 season. He was said Gibbs to be a very nice guy, friendly to everyone, and he wasn't an arrogant guy. Carlton's high school coach said on disgrace that he loved him, going as far as saying, I would be proud if he married my daughter. This is a lot. It does say a lot. You don't have to say that. You know, you could like somebody, but maybe not want them to marry your daughter. To me, that,

that's probably one of the highest forms of praise that you can give somebody. Yeah, unless you really just don't like your daughter. Because you're basically saying, I want this kid to be a part of my family. Right. And, you know, I go back to the he wasn't arrogant comment. Okay, that's tough. You know, when you're the superstar, you know, when you're the LeBron James of your team, I imagine, because I never was the LeBron James of my team, but I can imagine,

you got to work really hard not to be arrogant. Yeah, it's not easy. You know, I mean, our rec league, there's no hiding it that one of us at this table right here is the Alpha, Superstar. Superstar, the LeBron James-like for that rec league. And you can be very arrogant. Yes. Carlton signed with the University of Buffalo, but he opted to play for Paris Junior college instead. He met his wife Melissa Kethley at Paris Junior College. They got married in August

2002, but separated in April of 2003. Yeah, they didn't last very long. Nah, it didn't last long. It's a short marriage, but I don't really have any more information around it, but obviously either one or both parties realized that they had made a mistake. Carlton Dotson transferred to Bailey, but he didn't get a lot of playing time during his first season. So he's, he's started thinking about transferring to another school. There was another guy on the team named Harvey Thomas. Patrick Dennyhy was Harvey Thomas's chaperon when he first came to Baylor. According to Harvey, Patrick asked him if he smoked.

And Harvey told him, yes, he did. Patrick offered to let him stay at his apartment until his housing was ready. Harvey invited his cousin, Larry Johnson, to town to hang out with him. This guy, Larry Johnson, was a constant figure. hanging around with Harvey. Both Patrick and Carlton would later claim that Harvey and Larry Johnson threatened them with guns. So they claimed this, but as far as I could tell Gibbs, neither of these guys was ever charged in connection to Patrick's case or, you know, charged with brandishing a gun or anything

like that. Patrick's roommate Chris Turk said there were no guns in the apartment before the issues with Harvey. he told disgraced that Carlton and Patrick started answering the door with guns in their hands. They told him not to let Harvey in and not to let anyone else into the apartment. So obviously this is important, you know, as it relates to the story. And it's why we have to talk about this guy, Harvey Thomas. Because according to Patrick and Carlton, they were scared of him. Yeah.

Scared of his threats. And so this is where the guns. come into play. Chris said once he heard a knock at the door and he looked out the people and saw a black man holding a handgun. He said he was holding the gun in a very obvious, threatening way. And he assumed that this man was Harvey Thomas. In March 2003, Carlton responded to an ad for pit bull puppies at a farm near Waco. He and Patrick became friends with the property owners, Darren and Tammy Cox. And this is important to the story, too. This farm, this location is important in Patrick's case. By the summer of 2003, Patrick was preparing for his second season at Baylor. And I mentioned it,

right? He had to set out a year. He had to red shirt. So this would be his first year, getting to play with the Baylor team. In May of that year, Carlton moved into Patrick's apartment because he was separating from his wife. But Carlton's family grew concerned. about what they would later tell papers was his emotionally unstable behavior. His mother-in-law reported that he was having visions, and she has claimed that she notified the coaching staff about this. Now, I think that's a very broad term, Gibbs emotionally unstable behavior. Very broad, very vague, but it could also be very concerning, depending on what it is.

Exactly. You got to know what's behind it. It was on June 2nd, 2003, that Patrick and Carlton purchased and registered guns. The Mercury News reported that Brian Rabazzan said that, to his knowledge, Patrick never owned or used a gun before moving to Waco. He said, he never understood why Patrick felt as though he needed one. I still want to know, he said, why he felt he had to defend himself. and arm himself with weapons. That's the piece of the puzzle I don't understand. We do want answers to that.

Now, obviously, this article comes out after the fact. Right. On June 7th, Patrick and Carlton picked up their guns after the five-day waiting period. They showed the Cox's two pistols and a rifle. And they told them that they bought the guns because they feared for their safety. Who among us doesn't want to live well? To be perfectly at ease and comfort and style, well, Hunter Douglas can help you do just that

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And this is something that we haven't talked about, Jeff, right? You're a young guy. You're away from home. You're essentially on your own. Your family is pretty much the basketball team, the coaches. I think to a lot of people, the coaches like your second father, your, your surrogate dad. So it would make sense that if you were having a. problem, yeah, go talk to the coach or, you know, talk to somebody about it.

On June 9th, Patrick and Carlton went to different coaches to report that $300 had been stolen from their apartment and that they had been threatened by Harvey Thomas and Larry Johnson on June 6th. The two men thought it was Harvey who stole the money from their apartment. Patrick told assistant coach Abar Rouse that he was scared and that there were weird things going on. Weird things. Well, and the other thing that plays into this is that Harvey's on the team as well. So it does make sense, right? That you, you have a problem with a teammate or you think you have a problem with the teammate. You would want to talk to a coach. Now, Patrick's

family has come out and said that they just don't think that the coaches took the threats seriously. University officials claimed at the time that Patrick and Carlton didn't completely. playing about the threat. So I don't know what the correct answer is, but it's pretty simple. Either they did or they did. Yeah, I don't think there's any gray area there. No, but it means that someone is not telling the truth, right? When you get down to that, that level. In the 2017 documentary, Coach Bliss claimed that he was not aware of any threats made by Harvey Thomas. But Harvey said in his documentary interview that coaches Bliss and Rodney Belcher did question him about threatening Patrick. Now he denied making the threats and still, you know, to this day denies ever threatening Patrick or Carlton.

Assistant coach Rao said in his interview that nothing happens without the head coach's note. You hear that a lot. You do hear that a lot. And to be honest with you, a lot of times it comes out eventually that the head coach did know about whatever it was all along. Now, they're going to deny it because them having knowledge of it is going to put them in a very difficult position. Right. Possibly threatening their job. And we know Gibbs, these coaches make a boatload of money.

They do. Now, I don't know how much Bliss was making at Baylor in the early 2000s, but, you know, you look at, at some of the the top coaches now, five, six, seven, eight million dollars a year. Yeah. And probably some incentives,

right? Sure. They get to the certain round of the tournament. They probably get paid even more. Bonuses. I mean, it is big, big money.

So it never surprises me that someone in that position would do whatever they had to do to, to keep something from coming out. Now, it does surprise me what Dave Bliss did. And obviously, And obviously we're going to get into it in much more detail. On June 10th, Patrick and Carlton started practicing shooting at the Cox Farm.

So we are really talking about a compressed period of time. We really are. From, you know, the threats to buying the gun, waiting the five day period. And then for them to start practicing shooting, it's really like a week, a week and a half that all of this is taking place. on June 11th, Patrick's roommate, Chris Turk, left for a trip. When he left, Patrick was alive and well. Jessica De La Rosa said she spoke to Patrick on the phone that day.

She said he promised to call her later on June 12. Tammy Cox saw Patrick and Carlton at a Taco Bell in Waco. It's known that Patrick attended his final day of class and spoke to his girlfriend, Jessica, on the phone that day as well. Carlton's ex-wife saw him driving Patrick's car in Sulphur Springs, Texas. Melissa reported to the police that Carlton visited her home on the evening of June 12, driving Patrick's car. Now, I think to a lot of people, that wouldn't seem out of the ordinary.

No. It's your best friend. Sure. Okay. So you're driving his car. No big deal. The problem came on Friday the 13th. Patrick missed class.

on June 14th, Patrick told his friend Daniel Acopney over the phone that he was worried about threats made to Carlton by some teammates. The Washington Post reported that according to Daniel, Patrick said, someone is out to get me. Now, I will say Gibbs that the sources for this story are kind of all over the map. There are sources that state that Patrick died on June 12. Well, I just said that he spoke to his friend on the 14th. ESPN, the Washington Post, and some other outlets report that Patrick spoke with Daniel on June 14th, but Patrick was last seen alive on June 12th. So this phone call to Daniel on the 14th is reported on, but some people disputed.

Daniel told the Washington Post that he'd never heard Patrick sound so scared. Patrick told him, I don't know what to do. I can't say over the phone. He said he and Dottie, which is Carlton, were being threatened and I've got his back. Daniel asked him what was wrong and Patrick said again that he couldn't tell him over the phone. Patrick told Daniel that he was coming to his house with Carlton for Daniel's birthday on the 15th. Daniel said they could talk to the police together afterwards, but Patrick and Carlton never showed up. So again, there is some strange things as far as the timeline.

but you know ESPN and the Washington Post there are those are very reputable sources now obviously they're getting that information from dan they are so he either did talk to Patrick on the phone on the 14th or he did June 15th was father's day and both his mom and and stepdad Brian thought it was strange that Patrick didn't call and then when he didn't call the next day they became very concerned. Yeah, because it wasn't like him, not to stay in contact. Well, and especially on Father's Day. Right. You're going to call. They thought he would call. Well, and Patrick's girlfriend, Jessica, got worried as well. She couldn't get a hold of him. So she called Carlton. Carlton told her that they were scared. And he drove to Maryland. But he didn't know where Patrick was. Patrick's parents also

called Carlton. He told him the same thing. He had to leave because he had to leave because, he was scared. Patrick's parents called Coach Bliss and he told them Patrick was probably with his friends. On June 16th, Chris Turk returned to the apartment and he saw that the puppies hadn't been fed in days. All right. This is something that you and I have touched on before. One of the biggest signs that there is potentially something really wrong is when people leave their pets with no way for them to get water or food. People love their pets, man. They just don't do that. But in the disgrace documentary, Daniel Acopney claimed that he and a friend drove to the apartment. He asked the apartment manager to unlock the door. He said he found the two pit bull puppies without food. He also saw a

half-packed suitcase on Patrick's bed. He said he left a note for Patrick and took the dogs with him. So again, there's another what seems like a discrepancy here. And they both involved this Daniel O'Copny. On June 19th, the Brabazons reported Patrick missing. And it really gives at this point it had been five days since anyone had heard from him. Investigators searched his apartment. They didn't find any evidence of foul play. On June 23rd, the Waco police filed an affidavit seeking a search warrant for

Patrick's computer. The affidavit contained a statement from an informant who told Delaware police that Carlton told a cousin that he shot and killed Patrick during an argument. Carlton told his cousin that Patrick pointed his gun at him. So he shot Patrick in the head with a nine millimeter pistol in self-defense. He said he got rid of the guns on his way home. All right, Gibson, now we're in the thick of it. Patrick's been missing. Right. Carlton tells a cousin that he shot and killed him, but he claims it was in self-defense, right? Patrick pointed the gun at me. I had to then fire my gun in self-defense. Shooter be shot? Kill or be killed. Yeah. That's what he's saying. This document also had a statement in it from Jessica De La Rosa saying that Patrick was threatened by someone,

named Harvey. The affidavit wasn't unsealed until the 30th. On June 25th, Patrick's Tahoe was found in a Virginia Beach shopping center with no license plates. So this was strange for two reasons. Number one, Patrick had no known ties to Virginia Beach. And then I think number two, you find the guy's truck or vehicle with no license plates, a guy who's gone missing. Right. What do you think? Well, I'd be thinking that they took the license plates off so the Tahoe wouldn't be tied back to Patrick. Yeah, I don't know what other conclusion you could make. Why take the license plates off unless you don't want somebody driving by and spotting the plates? Now, obviously, if somebody stops, looks at the VIN number, the Tahoe can still be identified.

Sure. Yeah. Just makes it a little tougher. Now, on the flip side of that, I would think no license plate. would draw the eye of a police officer immediately. Yeah, I think you would have been better off taking tags off another vehicle and slapping it on just to not make it look suspicious. Okay, now don't give all your secrets away. But yes, you're absolutely right.

On June 27, Waco police issued a statement indicating that some of Patrick's Baylor teammates were potential suspect. Carlton was home in Herlock, Maryland. He spoke to the police that day. He spent most of the interview talking about drug use on the Baylor team. He claimed that Coach Rouse had players selling cocaine for him. Every time the detective tried to bring the conversation back to Patrick, Carlton got tense. And he didn't want to really talk about that.

So he was bringing up all these other things. At one point in the interview, he said, Patrick was, and just those two words alone, Gibbs were very suspicious to the detective, right? The minute you start talking about someone in the past tense, you know, detective's ears are going to perk up for sure. Because what do you mean by that? Right. That's a strange way to initiate a sentence.

Yeah. It's not Patrick is or now, obviously you can talk about someone who's alive in the past tens. The police searched the Cox Farm. they didn't find Patrick. The police did ask Coach Rouse if he was distributing drugs through the team. He said no and was shocked at the accusation because he'd only been in his position for 12 days. So not that it couldn't happen that quickly, but all right, you've been there less than two weeks and you've already got guys on the team and

some kind of drug ring. Normally it might take a little bit longer. to gain somebody's trust to be able to pull something like that off. He was also asked if he made threats against players. He said no. Rouse was willing to take a polygraph. He did take one. He passed,

which is what cleared him as a suspect. On July 1st, Attorney Grady Irvin announced that Carlton Dotson had hired him. And this is always one of those subjects, Gibbs, that you and I kind of get into it about. I think to a lot of people, the fact that you hire an attorney when you have not been charged makes it look as though you're hiding something, you have something to hide.

You know, you can look at a case like the John Bonnet Ramsey case. Sure. They hired. The parents did hired two different attorneys. Yeah. Each one hired a different attorney. And I think in the court of public opinion, it really made them look as though they were trying to hide something.

Now, a lot of people will probably still believe that. I don't know. But I think it's a smart thing to do. Yeah, and you and I have talked about it a lot. Now, does it sometimes turn out that the person does have something to hide? Sure. Does it always mean that? No, absolutely not.

I think a lot of people, if they can afford it, would hire an attorney because they want guidance. They want to make sure that they don't get into, you know, a rough spot, you know, get painted into a corner and say something that they shouldn't say that makes them maybe look more guilty or, you know, causes the police to focus on them more. You know what you're right. You should take advantage of your right. But here's the thing, right?

Not everybody can because you're not going to be appointed an attorney, right, at this point in time. No. You've not been charged. That means you have to go higher. and pay for an attorney. And not everyone can do that. You know, I think about the documentary making a murderer.

Do you think early on Brendan Dassey would have been much better off if he had a hired attorney? Absolutely. I mean, later on, he gets an attorney that a lot of people don't like, thought did a horrible job, worked against him in some respects. But so Dotson's got an attorney. the police are searching areas outside of Waco. They searched a gravel pit. On July 3rd, they conducted a search with thermal imaging.

They're looking really hard. Well, I think the one thing it definitely shows to me is that at this point, the police are not really in missing person mode. They're looking for a body. You know, when you do thermal imaging, that's pretty telling. of what you think this situation is. Right.

On July 9th, Valerie Brabazon revealed that Baylor coaches informed her about the threats made against Patrick and Carlton. She said that Patrick had not told her about this before he went missing. On July 17th, Carlton voluntarily contacted the Maryland police to talk about Patrick's disappearance. He called the sheriff's office and requested a meeting. once he got there, he requested an FBI agent. He ended up speaking to a detective and an FBI agent. Now, no charges were filed at that point. Dotson told the Associated Press after his FBI interview that he didn't confess to anything.

And I'm just wondering if some of this was based on advice from his attorney. You need to call the sheriff's office. They're looking at you. Go ahead, request a meeting. Once you get there, ask for an FBI agent. I'm not sure why, but maybe that was part of his attorney's plan. Bonafide was created to give women an alternative to effectively relieve the symptoms that accompany hormonal fluctuations within their body.

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murder. And it got strange, Gibbs from this point on. You know, Carlton actually called the police from a store in Maryland and asked them to pick him up. And he later said that he called the police because he was hearing voices. He told the police and family members that he was the son of God and that Patrick wanted to kill him because of this. During police questioning, he said that he was from a family of prophets and he could tell who was getting into heaven. Yeah, that special power. I mean, we've, we've gone in a, in a strange direction here. Sure have. Carlton claimed that Patrick pointed a gun at him when they went to go target shooting at a gravel pit outside of Waco.

He said Patrick's gun jammed. And then Carlton said, father, please forgive me. And he shot Patrick. He then said he packed up his things, called a relative to wire him some money and drove to Maryland. He dumped the gun on his way to Maryland. So he's finally confessed to the shooter. Right. You know, he denied.

He denied. Now, he's confessed, but he's also weaved in quite a strange tale, right? He's hearing voices. He's the son of God. He can tell who's getting into heaven and who's not. Because of all this, Patrick wants to kill him. But when Patrick goes to do it at the state, shooting range, his gun jams. And so Carlton has the chance, I guess, you would say, to kill him.

My question is, Gibbs, if you knew that someone wanted to do you harm, would you go with that person to a, to a shooting range or to a gravel pit to shoot with loaded guns? Of course not. That doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't. Maybe he's saying this to help his defense. Yeah, I think maybe twofold. First off, maybe he's saying he's mentally ill, right, by telling all of these different things. And then secondly, he's kind of throwing out a self-defense argument as well. Dotson's mother-in-law, Pam, told the Dallas Morning News that Carlton said he was hearing voices, seeing things, and couldn't control his thoughts back in the fall of 2002. And we talked about this.

We said his mother-in-law said that he was emotionally disturbed. There just wasn't much in the way of details at that point in time. She also said she spoke with a Baylor coach in the spring of 2003 several times about Carlton's mental health. On July 25, 2003, an officer found Patrick's body. on a dirt road a few miles from the Baylor campus. He was shot twice above his right ear and in the back of his head. According to law enforcement, the location of the gunshot wounds disproved Carlton's self-defense claim.

Yeah, it seems more like an execution style. Well, the back of the head shot for sure. Now, you would think if someone has their gun pointed at you, they're trying to shoot you and the gun jam and you are defending yourself and you shoot them, that gunshot's going to be in the front part of their body. Right. Wherever it lands, it's not going to be in the back of their head for sure.

You could argue above an ear, but it's hard to argue back of the head and say that was a self-defense shot. Right. But I think Carlton also left out another big piece of what happened that night. Yeah, and it was probably the most, shocking discovery of all. And it was the fact that Patrick had been decapitated. His body and head were found in separate locations, not pretty much the same general area, but they were not together. They were separated. If you're claiming self-defense,

why would you go that far? Well, and let's assume that the gunshots happened first. Right. He's dead. Very tough to explain why in the name of self-defense, defense, you needed to remove someone's head. If I'm a defense attorney, I'm really scratching my head trying to figure out how I'm going to spend some of this stuff. It's going to be a little difficult. It is going to be difficult. On July 27th, Patrick was formally identified by dental records on the 28th, Baylor President Robert Sloan gave a statement about the murder of Patrick Denahey. Late last night, our worst fears were realized when the body of missing Baylor student athlete Patrick Denehy was positively identified. Baylor has endured the heart-wrenching

loss of students before, but never in such a startling and perplexing manner. A tragedy of this sort could happen anywhere, but this one happened at Baylor. We grieve the loss of Patrick and the impact of that loss in his family and friends and on the Baylor community. We still have many unanswered questions. All we know for certain today is that a young man with a promising future, a member of our family is no longer with us, and a former teammate and friend has been charged with murder. Understandably, situations like these generate rumors and speculation. Baylor University will continue to assist the authorities in every way possible

to get answers to the important questions that are being asked. In the meantime, I would appeal to our constituents, the media, and the general public to exercise restraint in reaching conclusions, based on hearsay and speculation. And by this point in time, Gibbs, you know, some of the allegations against the basketball team had been made. They'd come out in the press. The president went on to say,

claims of impropriety in our men's basketball program are among the allegations that have been made in recent days. Nothing in the long and distinguished coaching career of Dave Bliss would support such allegations. And we have no reason to believe that such NCAA infractions did indeed occur. However, we take the accusations very seriously. On July 30th, Patrick's death was officially ruled a homicide. So I mentioned, you know, some of these allegations against the basketball program had started coming out. On August 1st and 2nd, allegations came out about drug use in the Baylor basketball program, as well as Coach Bliss's 1987 NCAA violations at SMU.

On the fifth, two members of the previous season's basketball team told the Dallas Morning News that some of the coaching staff were present at a pickup game involving Harvey Thomas during his official visit to the university, which apparently is an NCAA violation. Right. They got some really strange rules. They do. The NCAA does. Now that being said, it's on everybody to know what those rules are.

And some of these big programs have a whole staff that do nothing but, you know, understand them and try to tell everybody what they can and cannot do. Well, because if you violate them, it could be devastating to the program. Yeah, yeah, obviously it can. But to say that it's a violation to stand and watch a kid play basketball, that just seems so strange. Yeah. Now, I get the ones about don't buy kids cars.

Don't give them bags of cash. Those seem like pretty good rules. It should be pretty much common sense. Yeah. But there are some really ticky tack one. You can only call so many times. You can't call during this time or that time. Do you remember a movie Johnny Be Good?

I do. I think all the different schools were, it was funny, right? Yeah. And all the different schools were trying to get him to play. I think he was a quarterback or something. I think he was. Yeah. But it's funny how they showed how the different schools would wine and dine and other things.

Well, it was very similar to blue chips. Yeah. You know, not quite as funny. Johnny Be Good was a real comedy. Right. Like I said before, Gibbs, when there was that much money involved, somebody is going to be tempted to gain an advantage. Sure.

On August 8th, Dave Bliss and director Tom Stanton resigned. School investigators announced that two players received, unauthorized financial aid and the coaching staff failed to properly report failed drug tests. Jessica De La Rosa claimed in the disgraced documentary that she was the one who reported the NCAA violations regarding Patrick. It was revealed that Coach Bliss had paid two players, Patrick Denehy and Corey Herring more than $40,000 since they were recruited to Baylor. coach bliss paid the down payment on patrick's tahoe and he also paid his tuition and this was something

that i thought was a very interesting part of this case that's not something that a coach would normally need to do for a player right because you get a scholarship that part is covered but in patrick's case that's not the way it happened assistant coach abar rouse exposed the fact that coach Bliss was trying to cover up these violations by accusing Patrick of selling drugs. And when investigators were closing in on Bliss's actions, he encouraged teammates to lie to investigators about Patrick being a drug dealer. Because really Gibbs, that was the only way that he could hide what he was doing. Eventually, someone's going to ask the question, how's this guy paying for his own school?

how did he pay for a Chevy Tahoe? How's he paying for this? How's he paying for that? Right. So the coach's idea is to make everyone think that Patrick was a drug dealer. And so obviously he had the money. Right. There'll be no records.

Yeah, I don't think drug dealers are really good at keeping ledgers. Right. Transaction data. That's not their strong suit. Now, it could be wrong. There could be some very highly organized drug dealers. dealers. I think for the most part, it's not a vocation that lends itself to a lot of record keeping. I never pictured a lot of drug dealers with the with the green visor and the calculator with the

billowing, you know, calculator tape and they're ripping it off and they're keeping track of everything. Hey, that's what got Capone. Too much record keeping. Yeah. Not enough payment of taxes. Exactly. So I said coach Rouse exposed the head coach, right, David Bliss. He bought a $25 tape recorder to record Bliss talking. I think, you know, he was scared about losing his job, but he also wanted to do the right thing and, you know, really report what was going on. He recorded Bliss on July 30th, 31st and August 1st. And he eventually turned the recordings over to the. Fort Worth Star Telegraph.

And I want to play a little bit of one of the recordings here. It was played on that documentary disgraced. So let's play that, and then we'll talk about it. There's no, nobody right now that can say that we pay pending. Armadilly did. Okay. So what we have to do is create the reasonable doubt. I got like 30 years.

I've never talked to an incident like that. Okay. So I made that. for something. And the thing about it is what the lawyers want to do. It's all they got to handle is $2,000 for the dollar payment. You can't get like $7,000. What we got to create here for us, our mistake.

So obviously he recorded a lot more. That was just a little snippet. But in it, you heard the most important part. They can't tie us because Patrick's dead. All we have to do is create your favorite phrase Gibbs, reasonable doubt. Right. And that's by making people believe this guy was a drug dealer. It's just so nasty when you think about it. Not so much what the guy did because what he break, NCAA rules. Yeah. Yeah. He shouldn't have done that. But to sit around talking about one of his players who is dead so callously, that's

some really brutal stuff. Well, at the end of the day, all he cared about was his job, his reputation. All he wanted to do was cover his ass, right? He did not want to lose this high paying prestigious job. And if he had to make a guy look bad, he would do it. If he had to lie, he would do it. On another tape, Rouse asked if Bliss thought Harvey Thomas would go along with it, Bliss responded by saying,

Fuck yeah. Harvey will throw himself on the grenade. That fucker will lie when the truce easier. He'll do anything. And the reason is because we did it for Harvey. You know, I mean, we stuck up for him.

That's why we're in this jam. Is we stuck up for Harvey. Okay? I said there's no threats. So obviously when all of this comes out, it's a huge scandal to the university. They ended up barring themselves from post-season. in competition in 2003, 2004.

That's something that a lot of schools try to do. They try to impose a ban on themselves. Self punishment. Self, yeah, self-imposed in the hopes that the NCAA won't come along and really drop the hammer on them. Now, Bliss was banned from the NCAA for 10 years. I mentioned he was involved in a 1987 scandal at SMU.

They investigated that. He was questioned, but I didn't really see. much that came out of it. I mean, they already had him. That's for a coach to be banned for 10 years. That's rough. Now, he should have been. I'm not saying it wasn't just. I guess what I'm saying is, if you're a coach at that level, making probably millions of dollars, I don't know if he was making that much in the early 2000s, but he was making a lot of money to say, you can't do this for 10 years. What else you're going to do? You're going to go coach high school and teach chemistry?

chemistry. Yes, you can do that, but you're not going to make the money that you're making. I think the fact that it was only 10 years, I think he got off light. Yeah, because a lot of the times that would be a lifetime ban. But what's interesting is that Scott Drew was hired to replace Dave Bliss. Scott Drew is still the coach of Baylor and he just won the championship. Like I said, a couple years ago. They put the right replacement in. Yeah, and he's a fantastic coach.

Carlton Dotson was indicted on August 27, 2003, by a grand jury. In the fall of 2004, he was found incompetent to Stantra and transferred to a psychiatric hospital. He returned to prison in February 2005 after a psychologist determined he was competent to Stantrault, but he had to continue taking antipsychotic medication. The psychologist believed he did have a psychotic disorder, but was faking. auditory and visual hallucinations. So this goes back to, you know, what he was, he told the police, right? Right. I'm the son of God. I'm hearing this. I know who's going to get into heaven, who's not. Now, last week, when we talked about Janie Lou Gibbs, it took eight years for her

to stand trial. Right. This didn't take, you know, as long on June 8th, 2005, just a few days before he was set to go to trial, Carlton Dotson pleaded guilty to murder. His attorney. His attorney, attorney Russ Hunt declined to discuss Carlton's reasons for pleading guilty, but did say he was afraid of going to trial. He was ultimately sentenced to 35 years in prison on June 15th, 2005. So I wonder what that means. He's afraid of going to trial, afraid of the trial itself, or afraid of the outcome. Because I think, you know, what you often see Gibbs is a plea. We'll net you a shorter sentence than a jury trial and a jury verdict. There is a reason a lot of people plead guilty. For sure, yeah, they work the math and have to say, you know what, in the day,

it's better for me to go ahead and go that route. And take what I know is going to be a set amount of years versus a jury could come back with whatever. Yeah. We don't know what would have been on the table. Life. So you wonder, you know, did he get off easier? I mean, 35 years is a long time. It is a long time. It is a long time. But you killed somebody. Sure.

So, you know, in some states, you could face death. Right. And in a lot of situations, you would face life, possibly with no parole. So I don't know because I never saw in the research what it would have or could have been. But I would assume it could have been, at the very least, life with the possibility of parole. it could have ventured further into life with no parole. Obviously, Texas has the death penalty. So that could have been the ultimate.

Sure. And maybe that's what he was afraid of. Or maybe he was just afraid of the actual mechanics of the trial. I don't know. Maybe he didn't want to put his family through all that. I mean, there are a lot of reasons why, you know, guilty people do what they do, whether it's plead guilty or how. have a long, drawn-out trial, testify, represent themselves.

Brian Brabazon said at the hearing, you Carlton Dotson are a killer, a sinner of the worst degree, and may you never forget what you did. Valerie Brabazon promised to attend all future parole board hearings to keep Dotson off the streets. In Gibbs, you and I often talk about, okay, what would we do in this situation or that situation? Now, we're always speculating because we don't have experience, thankfully, with some of these really tough things that we're talking about. My thought is, though, if someone took the life of one of our family members, and I'll speak for myself, I know for a fact that I would be at every parole hearing

telling my story, telling my loved one story, what this person did to the family. what my loved one missed out on. I'd be telling every story I could to remind that parole board that this is real stuff. This is real life. This is not just the sheet of paper that you have in front of you with the guy's picture and what he did. I'm here to tell you it's more than that. Yeah, I think it makes a difference, you know, when you get in front of the parole board and let them know how you feel. I think much harder for a member of that board to vote against.

you, right, the victim or a victim's family member when you're there, when you're pouring your heart out. It has to make a difference. The USA Today reported that Carlton's attorney said he thought the sentencing was fair. He said Patrick started shooting at cans and things. He had a gun in his hand. At that time, Carlton thought he's going to kill me. I know he's going to kill me. I've got to kill him first and he killed him first. And I get it. The defense attorney is saying probably what his client told him. He obviously wasn't there. He didn't witness it. But I go back to our earlier conversation. You know, at what point did Carlton think that Patrick was going to kill him before they went to the gravel pit to shoot guns? Because if so, you don't go somewhere with somebody that you think is going to

kill you when you know they're getting ready to be armed. No, I would never go to the gravel pit with you. But some of those statements made it seem like he thought that for a while. So that's why you know, we questioned it. We, that's why we thought that was a little bit strange. Right. Just doesn't add up. Now, this statement makes it sound like they got to the gravel pit. They started shooting. And then all of a sudden, Carlton thought he's going to shoot me. He's going to kill me. On January 10th, 2006, a judge denied Carlton Dotson's appeal, noting that he surrendered his right to appeal and also that the 30-day deadline had expired, which I did find strange. Normally, I thought when you pleaded guilty, you weren't then the next year trying to appeal. I thought that's

how that worked. But in 2010, Dave Bliss became coach and athletic director at Allen Academy in Bryan, Texas. He worked at the school. for just a few months before he was cited by the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools for what was called a lack of institutional control. And that's a statement that the NCAA throws around a lot. He was suspended from coaching for two years and suspended from school administration for one year. So this guy, you know, yes, he had a lot of wins. We said he had he amassed over 500 wins, I think, in Division I, that's a big number. It is.

But it also seems as though he had a problem at every place he went to. In 2015, Bliss was hired his head coach at Southwestern Christian University in Oklahoma that same year. He published a book titled Fall to Grace. But in 2017, he resigned right after this disgraced documentary came out. He then worked for a season at a high school in Las Vegas. but resigned from there in 2018. I was actually surprised he was able to get the one NCAA job.

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me at all. And I'll tell you why. I've seen so many examples of people who have broken the rules, done this, done that, but they are deemed to be a good coach. And so someone's going to take a chance on them. Now, they might have to wait X number of years for some imposed, NCAA ban or schools might just wait an X number of years because they want the stain of on a coach to kind of fall off a little bit. But that person's going to get another

chance. But he couldn't really make good of his second, third and fourth chances. Abar Rouse was never hired as a coach and he currently teaches at a federal prison. He had trouble getting a job after the Baylor scandal because of the tape recorded conversations. His view was that it caused other programs not to trust him. And so that's interesting when you think the whistleblower can't get a second chance, but the coach who obviously did a bunch of stuff that was wrong gets a bunch of chances. That don't seem right.

It doesn't. It's messed up, you know, but I'm sure those coaches out there are thinking, do I want him on my staff? Oh, I get it. It's what he thinks is probably absolutely 100% correct. But if you're not doing anything wrong as a coach, why wouldn't you want somebody that's honest on your team? But he also wasn't a head coach who had amassed a bunch of wins and a good track record

of winning as a head coach. Rouse told the disgrace documentary, I love what I do. And I'm proud of what I do. If I was coaching, could I say the same thing? Coach Bliss has said that he's sorry and he deserves a second chance and has asked for redemption. I can't buy into it. I can't believe. It's not because I don't believe in redemption or second chances.

It's because I work with criminals on a constant basis. I know what fake redemption looks like and what real redemption looks like. I thought that was a pretty powerful statement. I agree. He's basically coming out and saying, yeah, Bliss apologized to me. I don't believe any of it. Right. I don't believe that he's remorseful.

I don't believe he's seeking redemption. I think he's faking it. So we've talked about this documentary disgraced, right? It came out in 2017 on Showtime. The producers kind of proposed the theory that Harvey Thomas, a player on the team, we talked about him, was involved. Daniel Acopney Patrick's friend said on the show, Carlton may have pulled the trigger.

but there may have been other forces at work. Bliss told the documentary team, this is off camera, but Patrick was selling drugs. He sold to all the white guys on campus. Yeah, he was the worst, but you'll never be able to use this.

He claimed the police knew all that stuff. Unfortunately, the parents also knew that he was a druggy. First of all, if you're Bliss, why do you even go on this documentary? And second of all, have you not seen the jinks?

Yeah. Now, I think this guy knew he was miced up. Obviously, he said, this is off camera. You're not going to be able to use any of this, but it's still going to be recorded. Why would you say that stuff? Whether it's true or not, why are you blasting a young man who was on your team whose life was ended?

Yeah, it doesn't look good at all. And Patrick's family, friends, former roommates, and even detectives have said that there's no evidence. Patrick was selling or even using drugs. Harvey denied threatening Patrick in the documentary. Neither David Bliss nor Harvey Thomas faced any type of criminal charges. You know, and that's the thing about what Bliss did, right? He didn't do anything criminal. Right. He didn't break any laws. He didn't have anything to do with the murder of Patrick Denny he. what he did was break all kinds of NCAA regulations. Carlton Dotson is still in prison,

but he could be released in July, 2,038. Not that far away. No, no, by my math, that is 16 years from now. He did come up for parole just last year in 2021, but was denied. He's currently 40 years old and incarcerated at the Connolly

Correctional facility. Brian Brabazon and Patrick's mother separated. He told the Mercury News that part of the reason for their separation was because of Patrick's death. He also told the paper, you know, Patrick never got to play in the big game he deserved. You know, parents are going to have a rough time. Yeah, we've seen this quite a bit in cases, right? You know, to your point, losing a child, I think a lot of times is a strain on a marriage that people just can't get through. But there's no doubt that Patrick had a bright future ahead of him.

We have no idea what he would have done at Baylor. Could he have made it to the NBA? Could he have blossomed and been some kind of huge star in the NBA? It's kind of the other tragic part of these cases. You know, his life was taken from him. He was taken from his family. Then you always have that, you know, what would he have done? What would he have gone on to become?

And, you know, one thing I'm struggling with Gibbs in this case is what was the real motive for Carlton Dotson to shoot and kill Patrick Denny. It's a mystery, really, why he did what he did. Well, I mean, I think you have to look at the mental illness angle. I mean, at least one psychologist thought that he had some type of mental illness. Now, he thought he was faking some of it. So you have to ask the question. was that a contributing factor, you know, to him committing the murder? Was there, you know, something else that's never really come out related to all this other stuff that was going on? Whether it was Harvey Thomas, whether it was drugs, whether it was, you know, NCAA violations. I don't know. But this was a huge blow, right, to Baylor basketball.

It was one of the biggest scandals in college athletics, probably up a, until the more recent like Adidas scandals that kind of swept up Rick Petino and and some other big coaches. I mentioned that they won the championship a couple years ago, but it was a long road. I mean, it took a while for Baylor to reach where they are now. They were, they were bad for, for some time. Yeah, it's not easy getting to that championship game. And winning it.

And winning it. But it sure helps you're recruiting down the road. Yeah, and especially if you're doing it the right way, which by all indications Scott Drew is, I have no idea. But when you look at David Bliss, not only was he cheating, right? He was trying to gain the system to gain an advantage, but the fact that he attempted to tarnish Patrick's reputation in order to hide what he, what Bliss was doing. I just thought that was so despicable. Yeah. Oh, well, he's already dead.

going to use him. I just, I just found that so horrible. Thankfully, you know, Rouse the assistant coach exposed the truth. There's no doubt. The murder of Patrick Dennehy and the NCAA violations have had lasting impacts on Baylor University and obviously on everyone involved in the case, right? Friends, family. There's something that you and I talk about so often, this spider web or branches on a tree or whatever analogy you want to use, these decisions that people make. And, you know, the criminal acts that they commit have this like ripple effect that just touch the lives of so many people in such a negative way.

And they don't even think about that when they make their decision to do something. No, I don't think most killers do. Now, again, I still think there's a lot of gray area here when it comes to. why did Carlton really do what he did? Did he really think that his best friend was about to kill him? Maybe he did. Wanted to kill him. Was he in the grips of a very severe mental illness that was causing him not to think rationally?

I don't know. Or did he have some other, you know, ulterior motive? And then some of this other stuff came along a little laughter. But if you remember, his mother-in-law said he was acting very strangely in this way well before, I think he even, like a year before the murder even happened. Yeah. So maybe there's some truth behind it. There could be. Never know.

But that's it for our case on Carlton, Dotson. Gibbs, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah. Hi, Mike. Hi, Giddy. This is Grenda. I'm calling because I just wanted to say thank you for all, y'all do all the podcasts.

I have only been listening for a couple of months. I think is that I too love my true crime. I don't know. I'm just so addicted to it. I have to have A&E. I watch my CSI Miami. I have those boarded all times. You two are hilarious.

Y'all get me through my day, my long, 14, 15-hour days because I'm a delivery driver. here in Vegas, which unfortunately I'm sorry. I missed Cronton. You didn't know about it, but I hope I made up because I am new to Patreon. I love it. I kind of put a couple of my 3D Patreon printing partners to decide so I can become your Patreon. But no matter what, your podcast gets so many of us through our day. We appreciate any and all.

y'all have done. I've already binged all of T-TAT. I am now binging unsolved. Then I'm going to criminology. Can't wait. Thank you once again. Keep your own time ticket. Man, what a great voicemail.

Yeah, I appreciate the fact that you would make the decision to sign up for Patreon. Gibbs, what would it be like to be a delivery driver in Vegas of all places? That would be one of the hardest, I would think. Yeah, I've been a delivery driver, but man, out in Vegas, all that traffic. Yeah. tough. Yeah. And where do you park to get out and deliver your package? I think there's going to be a lot of double and triple parking. And for you, how would you, you know, walk around in such short shorts? Well, it's Vegas. You can do that there. Well, that's true. That's actually the one place where

your dress would be appropriate and appreciate it. Because you wear some of the shorter shorts I've ever seen. I like shorty shorts. I don't even know, do you have those specially made or they tailored to be brought up. Of course. Like you'd bring up a pair of dress pants. You can't bring them all the way up. You just about do. I gotta be careful how far I bring them up.

In the way, with this podcast, it is literally the best ever. Again is Susan in Illinois. I don't think I told you that. I've called you guys before, but you guys are both great. I'm not,

I'm just team Mike. Super podcast. Thanks for all you do and all of your hard work. Stay safe, but keep your own time ticket. And another great voicemail. Yeah. All right. Love it. You got to protect your way, booze.

Got to. Hey, Mike and Gibby. My name is Kelly Watson. I am from Jacksonville, Florida. I am a new listener. I've been listening for a couple months. I'm a welder, and I put my headphones in and listen to y'all all day long. Weldon put my head down and listen to y'all. I'm up to episode 71, and I just listened to the one about Gertrude, last name I can't pronounce, and I was honestly sobbing. I work with a bunch of guys, so they were probably looking at me super funky in the shop. But that was just such a heartbreaking episode. I know you guys got to like turn this dial way back because you guys are all the way up to episode 280-something.

Looking forward to catching up and really appreciate all the work you guys put in. And, you know, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Man, I wonder if she uses one of those Hobart arc welders. Up from around where you live. Yeah. very close to where you live. So welders are kick-ass. Hopefully her coworkers will hear this and let her know if she's not that far along.

So she can jump ahead and listen to her voicemail. I have a cousin who's a welder and she's kick-ass. Yeah? Yeah. She's really good. We have that other person we know that's really good too. Oh, that's true. On the safes.

Remember that? Yeah. We don't talk about that. Oh, I said that into, I shouldn't have said that. Yeah. We had one thing in the mailbag. Erica and Al Grenier sent us in a new serial killer bobblehead, Ed Gein. And, you know, most of the bobblehead is pretty normal.

Yeah. You know, it's Ed Gein, but then, of course, he's holding a skin face mask. Yeah. Freaky. A little freaky. But that's Ed Gein. Exactly. All right, everyone, that is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.