True Crime All The Time - Cathy Sposito

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

Catherine “Cathy” Sposito was a 23-year-old Prescott College student who was murdered on June 13, 1987, while hiking the Thumb Butte Trail in Prescott, Arizona. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Cathy Sposito. Cathy was shot, stabbed, and beaten, and the case quickly went cold with no known suspects. Investigators kept the case open for 36 years, but advances in DNA technology eventually provided the breakthrough.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 522 of the True Crime All of the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing great. You and I just had some Chipotle. We got a whole night of recording.

Yes. To go through. Probably a lot of people don't know, but we record one night a week. We do. And we, you know, spend the whole week researching and then we knock out T-Cats. unsolved and then the Thursday T-Cat for the next week. And sometimes Patreon. Oh, and Patreon as well.

Yeah. So it's a lot in one night, but it keeps you from having to drive over multiple nights. Well, keeps you from having to feed me twice. That is true because it's getting to be a much more expensive proposition than it was 10 years ago when we first started. I didn't realize till the other day that you guys actually keep

spreadsheet. I've seen that on your system upstairs. I'm like, what is that? Does that a spreadsheet about every time I come here and... Oh, my wife tracks everything. At some point, you may get a bill. I don't know. I think I might. I can't rule it out. The weird thing is that she tags on interest. Yeah, 10 years worth. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Kathy, Pesito. College student Kathy Spacito was murdered in 1987 in Prescott, Arizona. And then over three decades later, modern DNA technology solved the case, which

previously had no known suspects. And you know, I like these cases. You and I also do an unsolved podcast. And at the end of those episodes, right, we're always talking about what is it going to take to solve this thing? And let's face it, at this, you know, this was an unsolved case for 30 years. And a lot of times we're talking about either someone with knowledge has to come forward, but more than likely if they have anything that could lead to DNA, it's going to be a DNA hit through some type of modern technology that maybe doesn't even exist yet, right? That's,

right around the corner. Catherine and Kathy Sposito was born on September 7th, 1963. She was only 23 years old when she was murdered. And these are tough for me. You know, when you talk about women who are in the age range of our kids, right. Okay, those are tough.

Yeah, it makes it difficult. My oldest is two years older than Kathy was. My youngest is two years younger. So she was right in the middle. And I just think about them. Every time we do cases like this, because, you know, I can't wait to see what they're going to go on and do. Right.

But in a lot of these cases, you have families who never got to see that. And it's heartbreaking. It really is. Yeah, they never got to see their baby grow up. And see what they would have done, what they would have become. made of themselves. Kathy was originally from Brooklyn, New York. She moved to Arizona to study at Prescott College in 1985. I can imagine, you know, Brooklyn to Arizona might be a little bit of a culture shock. It's a big difference, I would think. It is. Brooklyn, you know, different culture,

like you said. And then weather, too. I mean, think about the weather. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, then you're out in Prescott, I think, I think Prescott's near Phoenix, if I remember. I have no idea. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, warm, nice temperatures versus freezing. Well, yeah, the climate for sure, but, you know, also think about the density. Think Brooklyn. Yeah.

You know, people walking. You don't drive as much. In the rest of the country, most places, we drive a lot more. You do. because we have to. We can't walk everywhere. You can, but it's going to be a long journey. It's going to be a long walk. Kathy attended Prescott for the 1985-1986 school year.

She majored in outdoor recreation and environmental studies. Kathy took a leave of absence during the 86-87 term for unspecified reasons. Wait a minute. I didn't know. Outdoor recreation was something you can major in. because I really feel like I could excelled in that. I really do. Environmental studies, maybe not so much.

I'm just talking about outdoor recreation. Well, I don't think it was like kickball. If that's what you're envisioning, I'm sure it had to be maybe a little bit more than that. There's some dodge ball in or something? Well, back in 1985, it could have been lawn jarts. Oh, yeah, very dangerous. Before they outlawed those.

I don't know. But I don't think it's that unusual, right? for people in college to take a year off. Sometimes people call it a gap year. That's usually before you start college. But, you know, maybe you don't have enough money. Maybe you just that first year kind of wiped you out and you need a year to regroup or whatever. Is you party too much?

Or in my case, I made it two years. Yeah. But it was filled with way too much partying, you know, had to regroup. But by the late spring of 1987. Kathy was back in Prescott and had registered for the upcoming fall semester. She got a job as a waitress at a local restaurant. Did you work while you were in college? I did.

I had multiple jobs. I never waited. I have never waited been a waiter. I've never worked in a fast food restaurant. And I've had a million jobs. You and I have talked about all the different jobs I've had. They've just never been in the, what I would call the service. industry. I mean, the only thing I ever did at a restaurant was wash dishes.

I don't think I have the temperament. Yeah. To be a waiter. It'd be hard. You know. Because you'd be like, what do you mean you don't like it? I might throw some spaghetti on somebody. I just, I don't know. I don't know if I could do it. Ralph Borson, president of Prescott College, described Kathy as a solid all-around outdoor person who often hiked alone, per the Arizona Republic. Kathy used her bike as her main mode of transportation to get around town. And I don't think that's unusual for college students. I don't think so either.

I know it's probably different now, but when I went to college freshman year, you couldn't even have a car. Yeah. Even if you were willing to pay for the parking, my daughters could. Although I don't know if they did or not. I can't remember. but every, I didn't even have a bike. We just walked everywhere.

I just rollerbladed everywhere. Put on the blades. The short shorts. Short shorts. Yeah. I get like a lieutenant dangle from Reno 911 vibe from you. Yeah. Roller skates, short shorts.

Quarter, quarter length shirt. Yeah. Mesh. Yeah. Yeah. It was good times back then. On June 12, 1987, Kathy went out to dinner with her friends.

and mentioned that she planned to go hiking in the morning, which wasn't unusual for her at all. So I think when they say, you know, she was an all around outdoor person. Yeah. She really was. I mean,

she was biking everywhere. She was hiking. It sounds like almost like on a daily basis. She just loved to be outside, which I do not. You do not, no. But she was also major in outdoor recreation.

So, yeah, which I still don't. fully understand what that is. Maybe it has kayak involved and... Could be. All that other fun stuff. I took a golf class in college.

Frisbee golf? No, regular golf. Oh. You just went and played golf. Okay. Seemed like the strangest thing. I think you probably aced it. That one I did.

I also took history of rock and roll, which I thought was going to be a breeze. Hardest class I've ever taken in my life. Really? They went back to like the 20s and 30s. Oh, and you're like, Like Robert Johnson. And I mean, you had to know the name of the song, the author, the year.

Just by listening to it, it was a lot harder than what I thought it was going to be. Robert Johnson, he's the one of the crossroads. Yeah. Yeah. In order way I know that is because of the movie. Which was a good movie. Yeah, whatever that was called. I love it when you start down a path and it leads to nowhere.

But we all get what you're talking about. On the morning of June 13th. in 1987, Kathy rode her bike to the Thumb Butte Trail. About 10 minutes outside downtown Prescott, the trail is in part of the Prescott National Forest and is a popular hiking spot. She arrived around 7 a.m., chained up her bike, and started hiking. About 20 minutes later, several people who were also hiking the trail heard screams for help. According to 12 news, because of the dense terrain, the hikers could hear her screams,

but they couldn't reach her quickly. That would just drive you crazy. You know what I mean? You hear them and you want to help somebody, but if the brush is so thick. Well, you don't know exactly where it's coming from. Also, depending on, you know, if you've got some high walls,

maybe it's echoing around. Good. It would make it a little more difficult to tell, maybe exactly where the screams are coming. from. Yeah. But add that with the terrain and okay, I can see why it might be tough to get to her. An Arizona Republic report from 1987 states that the group heard a scream, but dismissed it as

kids playing. And, you know, we've heard that time and time again. We have. Right. In episodes that we've done, whether it's, you know, a scream from within an apartment complex or from a house next door you know people don't always know what they're hearing and i think they're oftentimes not quick to jump on the phone with 911 because they don't want to be wrong right they're like well maybe says somebody playing around maybe it's kids maybe maybe what i heard i didn't hear

you know or i heard something but again i'm not sure what it is i i do think there's an where a lot of people are just really worried about, you know, calling 911 and then it kind of ending up that they called for no reason and maybe they think they're going to look bad or something like that. By the time the group found Kathy, she was dead. Her body was found 300 yards south of the parking area. So, I mean, horrible for these people. But obviously, you know with that, point that this wasn't kids. Right. Screaming.

Right. This was a woman screaming who died by the time you could get to her. And at that point, knowing that she obviously just died, how nervous are you not knowing how she died? Yeah. Because depending on how she died could mean that there's a predator. Yeah. Maybe watching you, maybe not that far away, lurking.

Yeah. It would be a scary. situation either way. Yeah. Kathy had been shot in nine with a 22 caliber gun, stabbed, and hit in the head with both a rock and a wrench. I mean, it sounds like overboard, right? I mean, pull out a gun, shoot, I'm going to come up and stab and I'm going to come up and pick this rock up. Oh, let me pull this wrench out of my pocket and hit you with that too. Yeah, and I will say 22 caliber is not the heaviest, right? Right. the biggest bullet. You can kill somebody with a 22 caliber.

There's no doubt about that. I think it kills more people every year than any other caliber. But that's just because a lot of people have 22s and a lot of those are accidental or whatever. But I just wonder if, you know, is this overkill or is this a scenario where, you know, the shot didn't do it. The stabbing didn't completely do it. And so it went further and further and further because let's not forget she's screaming. Right.

At a certain point. So maybe some of these things didn't kill her when the person thought that it would. Or could it be the opposite direct, right? Maybe they hit her with a wrench when she screamed and then hit her with a rock. And then stabbed her and said, just to make sure, I'll shoot once in the head. There was nothing in the research about the order of how everything happened. So it could have happened, like you said. She died of brain trauma and blood loss according to the Arizona Republic.

Shortly after the murder, Sheriff's Detective Gordon Diffendaffer said that there were no suspects. And there were no signs. An attempt was made to assault Kathy. And I think that's, you know, always an important fact. these types of cases, you know, was there some sort of sexual assault involved? Right. Because then, you know, that plays into possible motive for the attack. If there's no sexual assault, well, then you got to start looking at other things.

Robbery or was this, you know, someone that this person followed, they, they were targeting them. because you think the place was somewhat busy, right? There were other people there. Yeah. So if you wanted to assault them, I don't know if that would have been the place to do it, you know? Because maybe you get caught. But if you just wanted to kill somebody,

maybe you can get in and get out fairly quick and not be seen. Yeah. And escape in the brush where nobody can see which way you went. leads eventually ran out but the case remained open and active for 36 years. It really is. Over the years, investigators said it was possible there could be more than one suspect. And why would they think that? Maybe just because of the multiple weapons.

That was my thought. Yeah. You have a gun. Yeah. You have some type of knife or stabbing implement. a rock, a wrench. So you either have one person who used all four of those, or you have multiple people who maybe each wielded that weapon.

Like everybody had to take responsibility. Yeah. I mean, you could look at it a couple different ways, but I could see why investigators would at least entertain that theory. Yeah. In 2016, Kathy's brother, Sal Spacito, visited the crime scene with the detectives. and appealed for members of the public to come forward with new information. In a 2021 interview with 12 News, Sal said, this was no accident.

Somebody with a lot of rage and anger wanted to put an end to her life. Yeah, this definitely was not an accident. This was something that somebody wanted to make sure happened that day. Yeah, I think we don't know everything, but that's the one thing you can say was certain. Yeah. Right. Nobody accidentally shoots themselves in the eye, accidentally stabs themselves, accidentally hits themselves with the wrench and with a rock. Exactly.

It just doesn't happen that way. He noted that their father died in 2010 without knowing who killed Kathy. And then their mother passed away a few years later. Yeah, it's too bad. They never got the answers that they should have had before they passed. Yeah. And unfortunately, we deal with that a lot in our. unsolved episodes, right?

When it takes 20, 30, 40, even 50 years in some of the cases we've done to get close to finding the killer, a lot of the loved ones are going to have passed away by that point. Sal said, I always said she died of a broken heart because the last 27 years of her life, she took it the worst. Now, he's talking about his mom at that point. and how could you not? Yeah. Right.

Unimaginable to lose a child. Every day would be tough. Every day. Your life changes forever. Yeah. We don't have firsthand experience, but I can only imagine what that would be like. Sal expressed his hope for a break in the case in his lifetime saying somebody has to know something. And I always believe that.

Yeah. You know. Somewhere. First of all, the killer knows. that's for sure at the very least right and then you know as we often talk about is that person going to be able to keep that secret to themselves forever most can't most can't they might confide in somebody who chooses to never say anything you know now maybe they get drunk and say something to the wrong person and we've seen that before as well people like to talk yeah in 22

Yavapai County Sheriff David Rhodes said a cold case team was working to get DNA results from evidence that could turn into a new leap. On August 25th of 2003, Sheriff Rhodes announced that investigators had identified Kathy Sposito's killer. He was a man named Brian Scott Bennett. So they have to be pretty excited about this? Yeah. I would think. Yeah, I think so. Now, here's the other thing, right?

2002 is when they started working to get DNA result. Yeah. From evidence that they already had. And how often does this come up, right? How much or evidence is sitting on a shelf somewhere in these hundreds, thousands, maybe 10,000 of cases that they just haven't processed yet? unfortunately more than we care yeah and we know why right it's time it's money resources all of that but you know with all of these advances in DNA um they can extract more from less than what they could

you know years ago then that may be what happened here or it could just be that this was the first chance they got around to really trying to, you know, get DNA from this evidence. But Rhodes also revealed that Kathy was not the only victim. At the time of Kathy's murder, Brian Bennett was a 16-year-old Prescott high school student, 16 years old. It's a kid. I mean, it's hard to imagine. Yeah.

And we know what happens. We've dealt with a lot of young. younger killers, it's just hard to think of a 16-year-old being capable of this type of brutal murder. Right. But unfortunately, it does happen. Now, he wasn't identified in 1987 because, let's face it, right? DNA analysis was a brand new field. And it was not a standard investigative tool back then.

I mean, heck, you think about 84, 85 kind of being devised. very beginnings of DNA when it comes to law enforcement. So 87, they weren't that far along. No, they weren't. And a lot of people really didn't know anything about it. They weren't using it probably in most jurisdictions. In April 1990, Bennett attacked and sexually assaulted a second woman on the same trail. And at the same time of day, Kathy was killed. The victim was camping with her boyfriend and decided to hike Thumb Butte trip within minutes. Bennett stuck up behind her and held a rock to her head. He ran off into the woods after the attack. So I don't know. I mean, what do you make of this? I mean, here's a guy who goes back to the very same spot at the exact same time of day.

Yeah. And essentially tries to do a very similar crime. Yeah, it picks up a rock, threatens to beat that person with a rock. Yeah. Why? I think because he feels confident. Well. Because he didn't get cop before.

I get that. I get that, right? You got away with it. So does he feel confident that he can get away with it again in the same spot? I think you're probably on to something. You know, there is something about these killers. They kind of work in familiar territory. Yeah.

And whether that's where they choose to attack, how they choose to attack, the type of victim they choose to attack, or when you think about disposing bodies, we've seen time and time again where they dispose of bodies, many killers do, in the same area because they're familiar with it. They've gotten away with it. And then by the time police catch up with them, they find all these bodies within a hundred yards of each other. I think he was comfortable because he knew the area. You knew how to get in, get out, and also think he was comfortable because he knew maybe the type of victim he wanted would show up there. Hiking along this trail.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right with that. In July 1990, Bennett was accused of attempted assault at a house party in Chino Valley, Arizona. The victim was reportedly drinking and went to lie down in the bedroom. Bennett followed her into the room and attempted to sexually assault her. Witnesses managed to. to break down the door to stop him and he ran away.

So we're not talking about a choir boy. No, we are not. Right? He is not a good individual. Has a pretty brutal history. But good on these people at the party. Yeah. To have enough awareness to catch that.

Yeah, they could have heard sounds and just thought, oh, it's, you know, it's a couple who snuck away to have some intimate time alone. Yeah. But they didn't. And they broke down this door and they stopped this guy. Yeah. He was arrested but was acquitted due to conflicting eyewitness testimony. Bennett dropped out of high school in 1988.

He briefly joined the army but deserted in 1989. In 1991, he was convicted of forgery and received three years of probation. So not really a great person. No. I mean, I think the more we talk about it, the worse it gets. Yeah. Right? His character, his litany of crimes.

On June 2nd, 1993, Bennett approached a fourth woman at the Prescott Post Office and forced her into her car by knife point. He sexually assaulted her multiple times. A police officer pulled the vehicle over for failure to dim headlights and the victim escape. She was, believe she was going to be killed because Bennett said to her as reported by ABC, I can't let you go because you've seen my face. And that's a thing that a lot of killers either think from the beginning or they start to think as their crimes go on.

Many times it's because somebody identified them in a lineup at a certain point. and then after that they come to the realization that they just can't let that happen again. You know, I also feel like, you know, if you say that to somebody and you didn't have a mask on, so you knew going into it, you were going to have to kill them. It's not like you realized it all of a sudden. If you had thought about it at all, you would have put a mask on or something like that. But, you know, here's my thing, right? This guy, he has a pretty documented history.

of sexually assaulting women. Yeah. So if we go back and, you know, talk about Kathy's murder. And we said it, right, earlier, there were no signs that she was sexually assaulted. I just wonder why that would be. Is it because he realized that there were, there was another group of people, not that far from him? maybe and she screamed and he thought well I better get out of here before they come over most likely because it sure seemed as though this was a person who um enjoyed and I hate to use that word but I don't

know what other other word to use sexually assaulting women he had no problem with it he did not have a problem with it I think uh I think that's for sure Benet was once again arrested but there were no consequences due to a lack of evidence according to A. Z family. Got off lucky. Well, you know, when you go back into the 80s and the 90s and you start talking about sexual assault, it can be very frustrating. Sure. Because it doesn't seem as though, I shouldn't even say seen.

It was not taken as seriously as it is today. That's very true. You know, we have seen so many sentences that have pissed us off because you're comparing what this monster did to some woman versus what they ultimately got in punishment. And it makes no sense whatsoever. Yeah. And again, what were we telling these people back then? Yeah, you might get caught, but it's not going to be a deterrent because.

your punishment was not that severe. Yeah. It still makes me matter. I understand. On January 27, 1997, Bennett returned to his home state of Kentucky and died by suicide.

So he was never convicted of a violent crime throughout his whole life. No. He got by. Yeah. In 2020, detectives got a break in the case.

when they were looking into the April 1990 attack, which had DNA evidence on file, using familial genealogy. Investigators identified a female descendant of the suspect who gave the names of two potential suspects, Brian Bennett or his younger brother. And you know, you've heard me say it,

but familial genealogy, genetic genealogy, all that stuff is, and has been groundbreaking, the amount of cases that it's kind of cracked wide open is awesome, but also how they go about doing it. Yeah.

You know, they narrow it down to a family tree. Okay, it could be this person. It could be this person. But then you got to go maybe get a sample, which nobody's going to give up willingly. Right.

So you got to steal their used cup and straw or you know whatever it is just lie and waiting yeah they got to just put their coffee cup down or go through their their trash yeah and uh get it that way so to rule out the brother authorities gathered evidence to obtain a warrant to exhumed Bennett's body the body was exhumed in November 22 in March 2020 23 DNA testing linked Bennett to the April 8,000,000, April 1990 rape case on the Thumbute Trail. Investigators then compared his DNA to the DNA profile in the Kathy Spacito case. And it was a match.

Man, they got to be feeling really good at that point. Yeah. I mean, it was a lot of work, I'm sure. Yeah. And it took a long time. But they had to be elated that they finally got some answers. But here's the thing that really jumped out at me. you know, this type of testing and this investigation may not just crack or solve one case.

It could solve a whole bunch of them. It could. Yeah, it could set off a whole domino effect. Yeah. Where they have DNA evidence. Yeah. During his August 2003 press conference, Sheriff David Rhodes said the murder rocked the city of Prescott. People wondered how such an atrocious crime could happen.

there. I think a lot of cities are like that. They just, they can't fathom how something like that could happen in their community. Yeah. And I think the smaller the community, the better the chance of that happening. Yeah. Right. If you're in New York City, okay, there's a lot of crime. Right. Are you unbelievably surprised to hear about a violent crime? No, probably not. Number one, there, you know, are millions and millions of people. Right. So, they're just by that nature going to have way more violent crime than a city with 20,000 people or 15,000 people. So in a city like that, to have an assault, a murder, it's going to be much bigger news.

Oh, yeah. Where I live, something happened. It would be huge, you know, I mean. Yeah. Because there's 8,000 horses and like three people. Yeah. So probably not hard to find a sudden. suspect. Any mini,

money, mo. No, it's, it's not that small, but yeah, not much bigger. Really not. But it had to be a big deal, right,

once they, they figured this out. Rhodes declared to the crowd, I'm saying today with high confidence, Kathy Spizito was murdered by Brian Scott Bennett. Yeah, I think he can say that. Yeah.

So, you know, we said they had to be elated. But is there also gives maybe a tinge of sadness that this guy's dead? And they really can't do anything to him. Yeah, I'm sure they would love to be able to prosecute him to the fullest. And send him away for the rest of his life and lock him up, but they can't do it. No, he chose to take his own life back then.

Rhodes also thanked the dedicated volunteers, numerous detectives, and the many partners who give their time and their hearts to solving these cold cases. Four women were given either closure, peace, or validation today. That was much needed. They needed that. Yeah, it's a big deal. Yavapai County's cold case team is made up of volunteers who spend hours trying to move cases like Kathy's forward. The team of six is overseen by a homicide detective and they work with experienced investigators to review cold cases. And that's, you know, something I've never actually thought about, you know, a lot of these counties don't have the funds to have a dedicated cold case team.

Yeah. I mean, you've got volunteers coming in to work. Now, granted, they're overseen by real detectives and all that, but that would be kind of cool to actually be a volunteer to do some of that. It would be. You would have to leave your basement. That's the problem. They could send the case files here.

Oh, you can be like that one movie. They always sent the cases. Where Denzel Washington was paralyzed? Yeah. Yeah, I think that was called the bone collector. Bone, that's right. That's good movie.

Or whatever her name was back. I'm pretty sure that's been her name the entire time. Yeah, that's true. Whether she was married to Billy Bob Thornton, Brad Pitt. Yeah. I think it's always been that, hasn't it? I think you're right. You know, these actors and actresses, they don't change their name.

No, they don't want to lose that star power. A few of them have changed their names. I don't know if it's helped them or not. Oh, I'm sure some of them have. But like Nicole Kidman, she's been married a bunch. Yeah. She's always been Nicole Kidman. That's true.

She wasn't Nicole Cruz or Nicole, whatever the country singer's name was that she was married to. Is she still married to him? No, I don't think so. Oh, they got divorced? I think so. Oh, Keith Urban. Yeah. Nicole Urban? No, never heard that, right? He was much shorter than her. I probably caused it some problems.

Well, most people are. She's like six foot tall. Yeah, she's a tall woman. Yeah. So numerous investigators worked this case, including Sheriff Rhodes, who was on the case in the late 90s and early 2000s. Volunteer Rich Finston told the Arizona Republic that a rotating team of investigators for cold cases can lead to things being missed. So volunteers like him step into help. He said when continuity gets lost, things fall into the cracks. And so we kind of find cracks and try to fill them. Okay.

And I understand what he's saying, right? Continuity is a good thing. There's also something to be said for having a fresh set of eyes. I love that, yeah. Come in and look at a case. But if you're constantly just having new people try to pick up a file and run with it. Do you lose a little bit? Yeah, but also maybe somebody sees something that other people didn't see. I think you have to look at it both ways, right? Yeah. I have that continuity,

but also having fresh eyes on it too. Yeah. Speaking to the Arizona Republic for that same article, Sheriff Rhodes explained there's never a time when full-time paid detectives could spend this amount of time working on cases that are so old because the resources just aren't there. They carry caseloads, they're busy doing things all the time. And so really, I can say with absolute certainty, we would not be here today if it was not for the dedicated, competent work of our volunteers. Wow, that's awesome.

It is amazing. Give that credit out there. Well, and it's also amazing that, you know, people would use their own time, right? Take up their own time, not get paid just to try to help out. Yeah. I mean, that's very admirable. I feel like there's a whole network of people online that would do that.

Yeah. As long as it... And do. And do, yeah. They just don't always have access to all the case files. Yeah, that's what they really need. All that. Finston was previously a military investigator for the Army during the Vietnam War.

He has an affinity for numbers. So he became the go-to guy for DNA evidence analysis in Kathy's case. And you also have a... a real affinity for numbers. A penchant. A penchant for number. You're just looking for a place to throw that word in. So you could be the go-to guy for a lot of different things.

Oh, absolutely. They wanted you to star on that show numbers. It did. That you turned it down for some reason. They wouldn't get me the unlimited licorice I wanted. So it's like in your trailer. Yeah. However, there were issues due to.

DNA connection. Let's go with collection. Probably collection. Yeah. Yeah. And evidence handling processes in the late 80s. The wrench that was found on the trail near Kathy's body was believed to have been used during the attack. But there were multiple DNA profiles because another hiker carried it to an officer at the scene. Oh, see. You hate that. You do. But again, you got a hiker out there, but they might think they're helping out. Of course. And they probably don't have the knowledge of, you know, crime scene. Back then, they wouldn't know what people would know today.

Oh, you just watch the myriad of shows today. And it tells you everything you need to know about a crime scene. You see crime scene stuff, you back away. Yeah. Unless you had something to do with it, then you don't. Then you touch everything. Exactly. Right.

Finns then explained when you have multiple contributors, the only thing you can do analytically is develop a likelihood that your suspect touched it. And, you know, that could be really tough. Can be. Might be good fodder for a defense attorney. Oh, for sure. The majority of the DNA on the wrench did belong to Brian Bennett. And he was identified in the 1990 assault that occurred on the same.

same trail at the same time of day and with the same Emma. So I think when you look at it that way, yeah, does it have other contributors? Yeah, maybe this guy that picked it up and carried it. You should be able to figure out his DNA. Yeah, I think he can explain that away to a jury. Yeah, but then it does put Brian Bennett there and it puts him holding the rent. Yeah. So add that with his, you know, this other assault that occurred on the same trail, same M.O., same time of day.

That's pretty compelling. We could add up. It does. Vincent said the compelling body of evidence is the combination of the likelihood of DNA and the circumstantial evidence of the behavior of Brian Ben. And in the July 1990 and July 1993 attacks, both survivors identified Benin as the attacker and reported that he threatened to kill them. I think that's a big piece right there. When you have witnesses saying that that was him. On top of DNA evidence?

Yeah. I think that's pretty solid. Renee Sandoval, the survivor of the June 1993 attack, also spoke at the August press conference. She spent decades waiting for justice that she thought would never come. She told Arizona Republic, I haven't had a voice about this in 30-something years. It's time. Wow. Yeah, it is time.

I bet she was more than ready to go. Yeah, 30-some years. She was only 22 at the time of the attack. She told reporters at the press conference per ABC, this is a long time coming. I want to start by saying, thank you, God. I give you all the glory because he was with me that night. I prayed. He spoke to me.

He's the reason that I'm here today. She asked the crowd to pray for all these people that have suffered a crime like this. Pray for those people who never had a voice. Renee also spoke about the connection she felt with Kathy, saying, Kathy, you're free. We're always going to be tied together and have a connection. She will be with me until the day I die. And these are interesting quotes.

They are. You think about survivors and what they go through, right, 30-some years, waiting to get an answer on who this monster was that attacked you, but then also living with maybe some survivors' guilt that you survived, but Kathy didn't. You know, all of that's going to be tough. there's no easy part of any of this. No, even as a survivor, you're worried that whoever did this is still out there.

And will they come around the corner one day? In the 30 years? Yeah. Yeah. You have no idea because you don't know who did it. You could be walking by that person. You could be working with that person. Good.

I don't know how you feel safe. Yeah. In a situation like that. I don't know if you could. Renee said she hoped her words and the identification. of Bennett would encourage more survivors to come forward and share their stories. She talked about how she found support from the Spasito family and the other survivors. She said, we don't know each other, but we feel like we do.

And it's great for all of us to have that support system of each other. We're connected. Yeah, that's awesome. And sometimes it is awesome, but it's also, I think, sometimes necessary. Yeah. Like there's a bond there. Yep. And it would almost be impossible to not lean on each other during, you know, these hard times.

Because those people are going to relate. Yeah. You know? And they need to have somebody relate at some level. All of the cases were closed except for Kathy's. Her case is not officially closed because there were multiple contributors of DNA. So the sheriff's. office continues to investigate, Sheriff Rhodes said, even though there's an extraordinarily

high degree of likelihood that Brian Scott Bennett killed her, we always take new information. Rhodes also said there may be more than four victims out there. What we know of serious violent predators like this is that it's very unlikely, given the frequency in which he was willing to act, that these are the only four cases that exist. Yeah. And I always think that. There's really not many cases that we do that I don't believe the perpetrator has committed more crimes than what the authorities know about. Yeah, same here. I always assume that there's many more out there. Yeah. Now, in this case, it's not like they could sit down and question Bennett. Right.

Right. Because he died years ago. But even in cases where they can, I mean, how many of these predators are just going to offer up information that authorities don't already know? Yeah. You know, they're confronting them with evidence about X number of cases. Well, who in the world is going to jump up and say, well, yeah, but you haven't said anything about these six other ones that I committed or, you know, these six other crimes or however many it might be. There's just nothing in it for them. So I often think that most of these people have a much longer list of crimes that they've committed than what police know about. And I think he would have if he didn't take his life back when he did.

I think that's true as well. It's not like he was going to stop. No, I don't think so at all. People like that normally don't. If there are more victims, which investigators seem to believe is possible, they have not been named as of 2020. the time that, you know, we're doing this episode. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, horrible. Yeah.

When you're talking about a young 20, early 20 victims, you know, 23 years old, your life is just starting. You know, I think about my daughters. Their lives are really just getting started. Yeah, they're just the very beginning of that. My oldest is 25. She finally got her graduate degree. She's got a full-time job.

She's married now. She's buying a house. But that's just the beginning. Yeah. It really is. A lot more to come from that. There is. And it does make me sad that, you know, a woman like Kathy never got to go on and live

her life, her family. Not only did they lose out on that. with her, but also all of the people that, you know, she might have affected in whatever line of work she chose. Yeah. Just, yeah, there's more people, right? Her family, the friends and gosh, I mean, who knows, like you said, what she would have done. Yeah, we don't know what she was going to go into. Maybe she would have done something in education. You think about how many lives she might have touched that could never happen because her life was taken. Yeah, it's just, it's sad.

But no doubt, this guy was an absolute predator. Yeah, not even a guy, really a boy. Well, that's true. He was young. Yeah. When he, when he first started. But you think about, you know, being out on the trail, you're hiking. You're kind of solid.

Right? If you're out there by yourself, but it should be, you're in nature. It should be a good experience. And a lot of people find it very cathartic. They love it. It's a stress reliever. And then to think about having this person who is kind of casing this area where people hike and looking for his next victim, that's a scary thought. I mean, I know when I hike, I put my earbuds in. Back then, I would have put my walkman on. on, you know, maybe strapped it to your... Strapped it to my arm like we used to do back in the day. And just hit the trail, you know, and you're not going to hear somebody come up behind

you and attack, yeah. Yeah. So sat all the way around, but glad that they figured it out. Yes. Right. Now, can they charge this guy? It sounds like no, but he's dead. I don't know what it would accomplish.

Right. They know it's him. Sure. Yeah. But it doesn't sound like they really... they really want to move forward. You got multiple DNA profiles on, you know, some of the evidence, but pretty hard not to think that this guy killed Kathy.

Yeah. I think everybody believes that. Absolutely. But that's it for our episode on Kathy Sposito and another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and give me, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.