True Crime All The Time - Cesar Barone

Episode Date: March 25, 2019

Cesar Barone was an American serial killer who murdered at least 4 in the states of Oregon and Florida. Police believe he is responsible for more murders but he was only convicted of 4. Barone was born Adolph James Rode, but later changed his name to try to reinvent himself. Unfortunately, he didn't reinvent himself for good. He went on to murder.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the life and crimes of Cesar Barone. People knew that he was a bad seed from a very early age. And as with many killers, he began his criminal career burglarizing homes, and then graduated to sexual assaults and murders.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetime where you can gain access to extra episodes just for our Patreon membersVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 123 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. I'm doing good. I'm glad to hear it. I always like it when you're doing good. Yeah. Although, I will say, the majority of the time you are doing good. I know. But a lot of that has to do with just who you are. Yeah, I'm a happy guy. You are a happy, go lucky type of person, it takes a lot to get you down. It does. So for you to come in here and say, oh, man, you know, give me like an Eeyore type speech,

I know something's really got to be bothering you. Yep. All right. We have some new Patreon supporters. So let's give some shoutouts. All right. We had Annette Walker. Thanks, Annie Walker.

Oh, I wonder if they're the Walker system. I don't know. Suzanne Indress. Hey, Suzanne. Michelle. Just Michelle. Just Michelle. Just Michelle.

All right. Andrea Albrecht. Oh, thank you, Andrea. Jamie Jay. Jamie Jay. Allison Deming. Yeah, she's big on social media with us. Florian Fisher jumped out of her highest level.

Florian. That's a different name. It is. It's cool. Christine Barbin. Hey, Christine. Michaela Mays. Michael.

Heather Bonthron. What's up, Bonthron? Ronald Gold. He's golden, man. He's gold. Yeah. That's so Sandy. It really is, too.

Donna Pard. Hey, Donna. Samantha Campbell hey Samantha Lauren Sloan pick up the pace Les jumped out at our highest level Hey Les, as did Jennifer Arsano Arsano Arsano Arsno arsano Arsanoe Paul sounds familiar

Tessa Alderton Hey Tessa Bobby Jeffers What's up Bobby? Mel Quinn Hey Mel And Carrie Payton jumped out of our highest level Oh thanks Carrie So we appreciate all that new support And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs

This week we selected Christy Lee. Oh, wonderful Christy Lee? Yeah. Awesome. That we got mixed up with podcaster Christy at one point. We did. But now we know it's not. Now we know.

But she's been with us a long time, interacts a lot on social media. We appreciate that. Thanks, Christy. We had some great PayPal support as well, Stephen Will. Hey, Steve. Paul Perry. P.P. Shaila Green.

Hey, Shaila. Donna Harkins. Donna. Julie Mylander. Hey, Julie. And Quingrong. Zhang. Quingrong Zhang. Yeah. Both Julie and Quingrong made sizable PayPal donations. Really? Well, thank you both. So we appreciate that. All right. At the time that this episode is out,

we have an episode out on T-Cat Unsolved. It's on Lauren Spear. Yeah. It's another interesting case of somebody gone missing. Yeah. Lauren was a student at the University of Indiana in Bloomington. and she went missing one night in 2011. But it's really, you know, I think what fascinates a lot of people with this case is there's some, again, some video surveillance footage. But this time, unlike some of the ones we've done recently,

it's of Lauren and the people she's with that night. So it's really traceable. Right. You know, she was here. Then she went here. And she makes, you know, four or so stops in the early morning hours and then disappears. Then it's done.

So make sure you check that out. CrimeCon in June. If you still need your badge, make sure you use our promo code crime all the time, 19. You'll get 10% off your standard badge. So you got your workout jacket on. I'm wearing a Nike shirt. That's a workout. That's workout for you, man.

workout jacket. Because you're not in your pajamas like you normally are lately. No, I'm wearing a Nike shirt and some shorts. Yeah. That means you're taking the next step. I'm very comfortable. You always are very comfortable. Sometimes you're too comfortable.

Sometimes I am too comfortable. All right. Big thanks goes out to Vicki Farachi for her help with the writing and research of this episode. And Gibbs, we're talking about Caesar Francesco Barone. That's a hell of a name. So Cesar de First Tesque, Barone. I wonder if related to Raymond Barone. What was actually called?

The series called Everybody Loves Raymond. Everybody loves Raymond. Barone. and a serial killer. Or as you would say, Gibby, Oregon. That drives people nuts.

I know it does. Or sometimes you just go Pacific Northwest. Yeah. And sometimes so do I. PN. Or PN for short. But the thing about Barone was he had a very specific victim type. For the most part,

he targeted women who were older than he was, you know, sometimes significantly older. He also targeted some of the members of his family. Really strange. You know, to go after your own family. But I understand the older, right? I mean, I can see his logic behind what he's trying to do by going after somebody older

because he probably has the upper hand, clearly strength-wise. No, I think that's true. Maybe he was trying to go after a more vulnerable victim, I think is where you're coming from at it. But there's also a school of thought that maybe he had a fetish for older women, as some people do. Oh, absolutely people do. Some people have fetish for older men. I don't like how that came out. I didn't know if you were about ready to reveal something huge on the podcast or what?

Not at all. But clearly this is not being edited out. No. But hey, this is a very safe space. If you have a fetish for older men, feel free to tell everybody. I'm an older man. No, it's okay. I'm an older man.

But, uh, huh, that's coming from the guy that wears the costume. No, see, anytime I get you, that's all you can go back to. And you couldn't even think of the name of it this time. I had you so flabbergasted. Like, damn it. But I do think this is one of those cases where, you know, at the end, you're going to wonder. how this guy wasn't stopped much earlier in his life. You and I talk about that.

Sure. I mean, this guy had a rap sheet longer than your chaps. My chaps are pretty long. They're pretty long. Yeah. I don't know why you wear them. You don't have a motorcycle. You don't ride horses.

I'm not really sure what the chaps represent. Just feel good? They just make you feel like a man? Yeah, it brings out the wrecks west of me. Okay. He's like, how you doing, man? But the thing about Barone is he wasn't born with that name. He was born Adolf James Rody on December 4th, 1960 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. He was the youngest of three kids,

had an older brother and an older sister, and they grew up in a relatively happy, loving, two-parent home for a while. But it was around the age of three, four that his, His mother had an affair with another man, maybe a much older man. We don't know. Could have been. But the one thing we do know is she abruptly left the family. And his parents divorced the following year. So, you know, by the time he was four or five years old, his parents were divorced.

This happy, loving two-parent home was no more. Adolf's father was a carpenter who struggled with work on and off. He was also caring for three kids on his. own because the mom not only did they get divorced but she up and left with this other guy right she didn't want to have anything to do with the kids she's i'm out which in a sense i think can be scoring as well right to a young child to have your mother abandon you like that having any of your either of your parents abandoned you but yeah your mom for sure that would be that would be really tough but adol's father wouldn't be by himself for long he met a woman named brenda and they

married in 1967. So by this time, I'm going to call him Jimmy, because this is going to be somewhat confusing, right? At a certain point, he's going to change his name to Barone. But right now, his name is Jimmy Rodey. That's what, that's what I'm going to call him. And Brenda ended up having a pretty good relationship with the two older kids. So Jimmy's older brother and sister, but Jimmy was rough. he was tough to keep in line. She had major concerns about him as a child and she expressed those to Jimmy's father. She didn't think that he was developing as the other kids his age were. Yeah.

She didn't like the fact that he displayed a lot of lack of respect to his father. And I do think from all the research that his father tried the best to. he could, right? To be a good dad. He said that he was going to get some help for Jimmy, but he never followed through with it. That happens a lot with many people. It does. Busy working and then by the time you get home, you can't get a hold of anybody because it's after hours. Well, I think that's one thing. I think the other thing is for some people, they just don't really want to believe that their child needs some type of help. They may recognize it, but deep down, I think there are some people that think,

you know what, it's not my, not my child. Yeah. Or he'll grow out of it. Right. Or something like that. He just needs a new PlayStation. He'll be okay. So some years go by, Jimmy's father gets a promotion.

He's making more money. And the family moves to an upper class neighborhood. They even had their own swimming pool. Man, sweet. Things seem to be going pretty well. They spent a lot of time. at Brenda's mom's ranch where the kids could ride, you know, horses and do all kinds of things. That's where I wear my chaps.

At Brenda's mom's ranch? Just a ranch. Oh, at a ranch. So I do think life was pretty good. Even given the divorce and his mom leaving, you know, for Jimmy, that was up until he started attending school. This is when his bad behavior really started to come out. teachers were calling home all the time. They kicked him out of kindergarten for stealing other kids' toys.

He was such a troublemaker. They couldn't control him. As a kindergartner. Pretty tough, man. To get kicked out of kindergarten? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

I had that conversation with the teacher. And I was like, hey, do you really want me here both times of the day? And she's like, yes, right. Just go ahead and go home.

It's okay. I mean, that, that, you're starting off your rap. sheet pretty damn early when your first entry is kicked out of kindergarten. So then he started first grade. His behavior was even worse.

Now, they didn't kick him out of first grade, but apparently they banned him from the lunchroom. He was such a disruptive behavior in the lunchroom. He wasn't allowed to eat with the other kids. And as the years went by, you know, all through his childhood, reports of him threatening other kids, sometimes threatening them with knives, smoking, taking lit cigarettes and threatening to put them out in other kids' eyes. This is a bad seed. It's a really bad scene, man, especially elementary school and stuff.

Yeah. I mean, these all happen while he's relatively young. And again, you have his stepmother who's trying to help out. But she can't discipline this kid, right? no matter what she tries to do, it doesn't work. His dad tries to spend more time with him, play sports, do things with him. But nothing seemed to change his behavior. So there was this one really strange report that went to some early examples of animal cruelty.

And the report was that Jimmy found a sick monkey and he nursed it back to health. I don't know what kind of monkey it is. I don't know where he found a sick monkey. Just pretend it's a spider monkey. Maybe it's a spider monkey. Yeah. But after he got it healthy, the report is that he would snatch up neighborhood cats and he would set the monkey loose on these cats. That's some pretty serious animal cruelty.

Yeah, it is. Then you get into his early teen years. He started doing drugs. And we're not just talking about pot. He did smoke pot. Yeah, but that LSD and cocaine, man. Yeah, you're, you're ratcheting it up a little bit with those. A little bit.

He started shoplifting. He started burglarizing houses. But I think the big thing and the most telling thing for what's going to happen later is he started harassing his elderly neighbors for money. Give me your money, grandma. Yeah, I think, I don't know if that's exactly the wording that he used, but he was harassing. harassing them. He was intimidating them. But again, I think the key for me is he was picking on, for the most part, elderly women. This is going to be something that we're going to see over and over again. Well, he had mommy, mommy issues because his mom abandoned them. I'd say it's probably

safe to say he did. Yeah. And if he didn't like his stepmother, then he probably seen every older woman just like he saw her. Well, that's a good point. I don't know. That could be that could be it. Now, the one thing we do know is at a certain point, his stepmother had enough. You know, Jimmy was essentially the reason for every argument in the house between her and, and Jimmy's dad. At a certain point, she just said, you know what, I can't do this anymore. And the couple separated. But I think this is what Jimmy wanted. He wanted to drive a wedge between his stepmother and his dad. For one thing, Gibbs, she was the one that was kind of keeping tabs on him.

Well, sure. Monitoring his behavior. I don't think his dad was doing that as much. But she was letting the dad know. Yeah, I think she was monitoring all these things that he was doing and she would tell his dad. So with her out of the picture, he's got a little bit more of a free reign. Well, nobody tattle telling on him anymore. No.

And it's no coincidence that his behavior became even worse. So now we get to 1976. He's about 16 years old. He broke into the house of a woman named Alice Stock. Alice was a retired teacher. She was a neighbor. She lived just down the street. And she was in her 70s.

So Jimmy broke in, threatened her with a knife. and ordered her to take off her clothes. This woman froze in fear. She couldn't do anything. You know, basically in a state of shock and a state of panic. Yeah. She didn't do what he asked her to do. I don't know if it was because she didn't want to or she literally could not move.

She was so scared. But whatever the reason, he left. He didn't hurt her. Nothing else happened. But the authorities did later pick him up for that. this. And he was placed in a center for troubled teens for a couple of months. But as soon as he got out, he went right back to doing the things that he had been doing before in 1977. He broke into his stepmother's home and tried to rape her. Now, that's jacked up. It's all jacked up,

but that's really jacked up. Yeah. I mean, you're right. All of these things that he's going to do are jacked up. Luckily, she was able to escape, but he did it again later the same year. And this time she wasn't. He broke in. He sexually assaulted her and he cut her up. Didn't kill her, but he slashed her with a knife. So I do think Gibbs what you said has some validity, right? Was this mommy issues. He was upset with his stepmother. He's now taking it out on her. And maybe just, women of a certain age in general. Now, I do think his victims, for the most part, are much older than either his mom or his stepmom would have been at this point. So I don't know, but I think there could be some validity there. But he was doing this all over the place, right? Breaking into the homes of elderly women.

Most of them lived alone. And he was questioned in some of these burglars. and eventually he confessed to nine break-ins. But he would only confess after a detective agreed to not press charges. But it doesn't mean he's going to stop. It was not long after this that his fingerprints were found in a home close to where he lived. He wound up being convicted and sentenced to two years for this burglary. Which is not a long time for B&E, but I mean, I guess it's better than not. And don't forget, he's still relatively young.

And he didn't even go to big boy prison. He went to a low level prison. It was probably more of a reform school than a prison. But it had a very liberal parole policy as long as the inmate behaved. They would get out pretty quickly. And he did. But 15 days after his release. So we're up to 1979.

At this point, he's 19 years old. Jimmy went back to the home of his neighbor, Alice Stock, the woman that we talked about. It was just frozen. Yeah. Yeah. And this time, he raped her and strangled her to death in her bed. So this is what police believe is his first murder. And they believe that Alice is his first murder victim.

Now, there was never enough evidence to charge him at the time, but this case would be reopened later when he was arrested in Oregon. You know, right now we're in Florida. Later on, like I said, he's going to change his name. He's going to move to Oregon. That's where he's going to commit the bulk of his murders. But this was his very first. This is what they believe was his very first murder. Six months after he killed Alistock, police arrested.

Roady for trying to kill his 70-year-old grandmother, Maddie Marino, his own grandmother. That's worse than going after the stepmom. It's unbelievable. Yeah. He beat this woman with a rolling pin. He choked her and essentially left her for dead. I just wonder what the rage behind that was. I don't know.

I don't know. The one thing I do know is he got away with $10. Ten big bucks. He stole $10 from his. grandmother and almost killed her. Fortunately, she recovered from this brutal attack and she identified her grandson in court as her attacker, but he was ultimately acquitted of this crime because his defense attorneys argued that the blows that she received to the head caused Marino to mistakenly identify her grandson as her attacker.

And the jury thought this was true. You know, apparently she did have some memory issues, but she was very certain about who had attacked her, but he got off. Two years later in 1981, he was convicted for several more burglaries. He was a prolific burglar. He broke into a lot of homes. So this time he got sent to the Cross County prison in Florida for five years. Well, that's a little bit better.

Getting there. Well, you figure, right, you're adding to your rap sheet each and every time, the sentence should be commensurate with that. You know, when you look down there and see, oh, he's already done it six times. Well, we're going to have to give him more time. But it's while he's at Cross County Prison that he assaulted a female prison. It's a woman by the name of Gladys Dean. She was 59 years old.

He assaulted her. He attempted to rape her. This got him transferred to the Florida State Prison. And it also got three years added to a sentence. But it's the 1980s. He's at Florida State Prison. Who else Gibbs would be at Florida State Prison, you think, in the 1980s? Well, around that time frame, could be a few people.

But let's go ahead and go with Ted Bundy. Ted Bundy wins the square. Ding, ding, ding. Remember that show? Yeah. Was that Hollywood squares? Yeah. With the, what's that guy?

Oh, who's on there laughing? There was a bunch of people back in the day that were kind of regulars. Paul Lynn. Paul Lynn. Is that who you're thinking of? Yeah. Yeah, that was a, that was a ways back. But yeah, he's in there with Ted Bundy.

And he's not just in the same prison with Ted Bundy. he actually meets Ted Bundy would later brag about, you know, his talks with him, his correspondence with Bundy. Rody was housed next to Bundy two different times. One stretch was about two months and later on for about 12 days. And I think he may have learned a few things from Bundy. But he never admitted to the attack on the female guard. He claimed that another inmate was the attacker, but he took the rap Gibbs because he wasn't a rap. He said, I've never snitched on anyone, not even myself, which I never under, I don't really understand that.

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I've always kept my mouth shut. But there were people that would later say, Rodey became a new and improved killer after spending what was essentially a pretty short amount of time. with Ted Bundy. The other thing that happened during one of these times with Bundy was that it was reported that Bundy gave Rody a singles newspaper from Washington State. And this is how he met his wife. He started corresponding with a woman named Kathy. They got married after Rody was released in 1987. So, you know, if that all is true, that is a hell of a story. Yeah, it really is. You're going to tell your kids, hey, how'd you meet?

Well, you know, Ted Bundy had this singles newspaper. Yeah. And I wrote to this woman and we hit it off. And rest of it's history. History. Oh, I didn't know if you were searching for a word there. You wanted me to jump in or Ted Bundy matchmaker. Extraordinary. Extraordinary. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsors. Hey, can listening make you a better parent, better leader? Maybe even a better person. Listening can do a lot. It can inspire you to start something new. There's never been a better time to start listening on Audible. With Audible, you get access to an unbeatable selection of audiobooks, including bestsellers, motivation, mystery, thrillers, and our favorite true crime. They have the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet. And now they have Audible Originals,

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matched with a counselor you'll love. BetterHelp.com.com. T-Cat. So the couple, they decide to move to the Pacific Northwest. Ah, let's go on to Oregon. And they settled in Hillsborough, Oregon. They had a son. But I think the key here is that as he's put it, Rodey needed a fresh start. He needed to leave everything behind and just start off fresh.

And normally I would say that would probably be a good thing. If you're going to turn your life around, sure. Part of his fresh start included keeping his past transgressions hidden. And it was really not that long after he moved with his wife to Oregon that he decided to rename himself, right? If you're going to, if you're going to start fresh. Rebrand yourself. You got to rebrand yourself.

You don't want people knowing all of these terrible things you've done in the past. so he legally changed his name to Caesar Barone. And it was said that the reason why he picked that name is he was obsessed with Italian gangsters. Caesar Francesco Barone. Barone. So you don't get a whole lot more Italian probably than that. I mean, our foodies can let us know, but...

If you had to reinvent yourself and have a new name, what would it be? If I had to come up with a new name... It would be something less ubiquitous than Mike. Because everybody's named Mike, it seems like. Seems like there's a lot of mics out there. I would go with something strange. Will that be your name? Hey, something strange.

How you doing, man? Something a little, you know, off the beaten path. I could go with Tuck. Tuck? Yeah. Tuck. Yeah. Tuck don't give a.

Exactly. Yeah. Tucker. That's going to be my new name. Mother Tuck. the Tuckster. Well, you can go a bunch of different nicknames if you want. Yeah.

I just go by Tuck. Tuck Ferguson. Or would you change the last name? Wait, how am I going to be anonymous if I'm going to use my same last name? Tuck Barone. Tuck Barone. But authorities later on, after everything's said and done, is they go back and they look at the life of the man that is now Caesar Barone. You know, one of the things that they've commented on is how well this guy divided.

his life, how he kept everything separate, right? He was this social family guy on one side. And on the other side, he was a murderous sociopath. And there have been a lot of guys like that. And they're freaking scary. You know, you think you know them as this great neighbor, this pillar of the community. Meanwhile, they're out killing people and burying the bodies. Well, your shovel sometimes. That's why I don't lend my shit out to anyone. Yeah. See a shovel out there. Sometimes you throw it back of your truck because you might need it later.

So Barone worked off and on as a cabinet maker. He had jobs as a nursing assistant, but he had a hard time keeping a job. And so he decided to join the army. In the army, he received his sharpshooter qualification with an M-16. He also earned a, you know, parachutist and, first aid badges. He served during the U.S. invasion of Panama and was in country when Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega was overthrown. It would be said that Barone bragged throughout the years that he killed a number of people in Panama. And it wasn't just military personnel on the

other side. He bragged about killing a lot of civilians as well. But by 1990, he was kicked out of the army. They had reports of him harassing women, exposing himself to women, but they also learned who he really was, that he wasn't Caesar Barone. He was actually Adolf Rodi and had spent time in prison. So they kicked him out of the army. In March of 91, Barone moved to the Portland suburb of Hillsborough

and was later joined by his wife and son and it's going to be in this area you know from the in the 1991 to 1993 time frame that barone killed at least four women and he sexually assaulted at least another three yeah besides the the women that he killed he was not a good guy right good guys don't make it on the list to be profiled on true crime all time that's not how that's not this show if you want the good guy talk, you got to go to another show. So we start in April of 91. I am getting ready to graduate high school, Gibbs. Really? Just to put it in time frame. You are 42 years old. Whatever. Have been married five times. Just kidding. Like 10 kids. You're probably working at

UPS. 91? If I had to guess. Yeah. Yeah. wearing your short shorts. Wearing in and out of your truck. That's right. Doing my thing. So that's the what we were doing in April of 91. Barone broke into the home of 61-year-old Martha Schmidt in Hillsborough. This, like I said, a suburb of Portland. He sexually assaulted her and he smothered her with a pillow. And there's no way that authorities could have known it then, but looking back on it later, they would say that the similarities between the murder scenes of Martha Schmidt, and Alice Stock, Barone's first murder victim, they are extremely similar. Then in October of 92, Barone killed Martha Bryant. Martha Bryant was a 41-year-old midwife.

She was on her way home from Tuolity Hospital. In the early morning hour, she had just helped deliver a baby. She's driving along. Barone drove up alongside her, she's driving her VW bug, and he fired 10 shots into her car, forced her off the road. Martha was hit in the back. He got her out of the car, dragged her, put her in the backseat of his vehicle, and he attempted to rape her.

But according to some of the court documents, the thought is that he realized the severity of her injuries and gave up on the attempted rape. She was hurt very badly. So what he did was he fatally shot her in the head with a 22 caliber pistol. Wow. Then he dumped her body in the middle of the road about a half a mile away. Just right there in the middle. Just in the middle of the road.

Didn't try to hide the body. The other thing is he essentially left her. the middle of the road, kind of like, splayed out with her pants down around her ankles. It's not a good position to be found in. No, I mean, obviously he has killed this woman and that's the worst thing that you can do. But he takes it a step further and essentially humiliates her with this act, I think, as well. He's definitely a sick individual. Yeah, there's no doubt about that.

Just three months later, December of that same year, he broke. into a nursing home. And this was a nursing home where he at one time had worked and he fondled a 72 year old multiple sclerosis patient. I really hate how he preys on, you know, the elderly. And now somebody that has some other issues going on. It's just how low of an individual are you to have to be able to do something like that? Well, I think as we go through his victims, is there any doubt that he has some type of fetish, I don't know what other word to use. He has a fetish for older women. Yeah. Older, older than himself, you know, these women are twice, over twice his age. And like you said, this woman has multiple sclerosis and he's just

taking advantage of her. And just a week later, 23 year old Shante Woodman accepted a ride from Barone. He was actually with another man. man named Leonard Darcell. They're in downtown Portland. And both of these men beat this young girl, sexually assaulted her, and then dumped her body along Highway 26. Then they began to drive away. But as they did, they looked back, Gibbs, and they noticed that Shanti was alive.

She was moving around. And they couldn't have that. So they turned the car around, went back to her. Barone got out and beat her with the butt of his pistol. And then he shot her in the head. And then he wasn't done, right? He's going to like, well, just in case, let's toss you over the guardrail. Which is, to me, somewhat strange.

Why is he worried about hiding this victim's body when he has no problem just leaving other victims out in the middle of the road? There had to have been a reason in his mind. I just have no idea what it was. But a highway worker found the 23-year-old later that same day. And this attack, this murder, it's very different, right? On a couple of different levels, he's with someone else. And it just so happens that the victim is much younger. By far his youngest victim, 23 years old, does that have something to do with the fact that he's with someone?

And he's not choosing maybe his type of. victim. Well, I think so. But I think it's really from this point forward, you know, during this time frame where Barone's crime spree really picks up, you know, just a month after the murder of Shanti Woodman, this is January of 93, Barone is having drinks with a 51 year old woman named Betty Lou Williams. They're at her apartment. At some point, he produced a weapon. He produced a weapon. and began to sexually assault her. Yeah, but during the assault, probably because she was scared for her life,

she has a heart attack and she actually dies. Dyes from the heart attack. But I agree with you. I can't speak from experience, obviously. And there are some listeners that, unfortunately, we know Gibbs because we've talked to them. They've experienced things like this. I wish they hadn't.

I wish no one had to go through this. this, but I would think that would be such a scary experience. If you had any type of heart issues or if there was anything that was going to push you to have a heart attack, it might as well be, it would be this. But that's what happened. Betty Lou Williams died from a heart attack. Barone put her body in the bathtub, filled it with water. And it was Betty Lou's son that found her partially naked body in her bathtub the next day. Scarring. It is scarring. You know, I've talked about that before. To find your mother or any loved one in that type of position dead, murdered essentially. Yeah. That would be, that would be scarring for life.

And that's definitely murder, right? He killed her with fear. With his actions. Yeah. He didn't actually stab her. He didn't actually shoot her, but through his actions, he caused her death. In February, Barone committed a couple of more crimes. On the 13th, he attempted to rape his 51-year-old upstairs neighbor. But apparently, this woman was able to talk him into leaving. But obviously, she knows who this guy is. She lives right upstairs from him. Yeah, she recognizes him. Sure. She would later identify him to police as her attacker. And then on the 24th of February, he attempted a sexual attack on an 82 year old woman. But this attack was interesting because this woman had one of those panic alarms.

Like, help me out falling around her neck. Yeah. That, you know, you press the button and help comes. And I think it was more than that. it must have been either tied to her security system because when she pushed it, I think a loud alarm went off as well as, you know, it notifying the authorities, but it scared him. And he ran off. Thank goodness. Thank goodness for her. And then it was just three days after that that police arrested Barone for the attack on his upstairs neighbor. And it's while he was in jail for this attack.

that things started to cave in around him. There were some inmates in the jail that told the sheriff that Barone had given them details of how he killed some of the women in Hillsborough. They started looking into him for these murders. You know, at a certain point, they didn't even know they were connected. But they started to find some evidence. They found evidence in his car and in his home. They found a 9mm handgun and the 22 pistol that they later determined ballistically was the one used to murder Martha Bryant.

So they had enough to arrest him. And it ultimately led to him being charged with, you know, a litany of murders and assaults. And ultimately, he committed four murders in Oregon. he committed a number of break-ins and assaults. I think at first Gibbs, they were going to try him all at one time, right? All the murders at one time. But for some reason, they made the decision to try him separately first for the murder of Martha Bryant.

But that trial wasn't going to start until, you know, towards the end of 1994. by that time, Barone had already been convicted and sentenced on the break-ins, the attacks. He'd already been sentenced to 40 years in prison. But that wasn't enough for this guy, right? They're going to try him for the murder of Martha Bryant. I guess my only thought is,

Gibbs, they didn't want to put all their eggs in one basket by trying all four murder cases together. So if they don't, can't get one push the way they want, they can come back with the other ones. Right. Yeah. So they're going to try this one first.

If for some reason it goes south, maybe they can change their strategy. I don't know. That's the only thing I could think of. I never saw anything that definitively said why they wanted to try this one separately. It was a widely publicized case. But it was also during this time that investigators in Florida started looking at the Alice stock murder again. Right. They knew who this guy was now. They knew he had been charged with committing murders in Oregon. They started looking at him for the murder of Alistock again. So the trial for the murder of Martha Bryant begins.

The prosecution told the jury how she had blood spatter on her hands, which they said indicated she knew she was going to be shot. and she put her hands up in an attempt to protect her face. Yeah, I think anybody would probably do that, right? In that situation? I think at a certain point, it's just instinctual. You're trying to protect yourself. You don't think about, okay, my hands are not going to stop a bullet. You just put your hands up in front of your face.

The prosecution had witnesses who said they heard the gunshots around 3 a.m. Remember, we talked about it. This was early morning. she was on her way back from delivering a baby at the hospital. Some of these witnesses even said they saw the killer drive away in his car. And they gave a description of the car and it matched Barone's car that he had at the time. It just so happens that he had sold the car about a month after the murder. Seems pretty convenient.

But police were able to track the car down. and they found blood stains in the backseat. They were able to do some DNA testing that showed that it was Martha's blood. So that's good. They were able to use DNA to identify. We're just trying to remember when a DNA really become, you know, useful. Yeah, my thought is the late 80s. So I'm thinking 93, 94, still pretty early in,

the whole DNA thing, what, 94, 95 was OJ. So it kind of really started blowing up then? It did, but even then, if you remember that trial, I mean, people didn't understand the DNA evidence that was being presented, I think, a lot of it. So I know it was being used to convict people or, you know, in trials, but I still think that was fairly early on.

Well, for him, in this particular case, it's not good for him. No, they can identify an actual victim. It's definitely not good. It ties Martha Bryant to his car. And not just ties her, but there's blood, right? Meaning something happened. And that something was not good.

There was a detective that said he talked to 18 different inmates that were housed with Barone. They had conflicting stories related to what Barone had told them. some said that he stated to them that he was not alone when Martha Bryant was murdered. And then others said that he stated he committed the murder and he did it by himself. So it doesn't appear that he was shy in telling people that he was in at least some form part of this murder. In all the prosecution subpoenaed 123 witnesses for the case, seems like a pretty good

number. Pretty strong. But they only used 10. They only called 10 of the witnesses to the stand before they rested their case. That's pretty confident, man. That's what I'm thinking. I guess they were feeling very confident about the testimony from those 10. Maybe they didn't want to, you know, more is not always better. Oh, no, no. Sometimes you stop while you're ahead. Right. When you've, when you've got it nailed and you've, you've got everything out that you want out, you know, maybe 10 witnesses with great information is much better than 100 where you start to pollute things or muddy the water. The old less is more. Sometimes, unless you're talking about money and then more is more.

Or a bird is better in the hand than in the two in the bush. I don't think that's, I don't think that's correct at all. Better to have a bird in the hand than two in the bush. Yeah, a bird is, a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. Yeah. Why is that? Because you've already got the one. Boom.

But I don't know what you said the first time. I'm going to have to go back and listen to it again. Let it ride. The second time, I think you, you essentially got it. Yeah. Now, Barone has denied that he made any confessions to any of the inmates while in jail. You know, his defense team, they really focused their efforts on. discrediting the witnesses against him.

They tried to poke holes in the state's case, but that was a pretty tough uphill battle. I mean, I think the evidence was there against him. The other thing that Barone has said all along is that he had alibis. I got alibis, but I don't remember him. And I'm not going to produce them or tell you what they are. Yeah. So he's just come out and said,

I have alibis, but he's never backed it up. I know where I was. That's all I need to tell you. But I'm not telling you. Yeah. Don't you ask me again. And he never took the stand in any of his trial.

So he didn't take the stand in this first one for the murder of Martha Bryant. He's not going to take the stand in the next one either. Well, that's probably a good thing. No, it is. What good could come from this guy taking the stand? It took the jury less than two hours to find Barron. to find Barone guilty in the death of Martha Bryant. And ultimately, he was given a death sentence.

In handing out the sentence, the judge referred to his crimes as despicable abomination after despicable abomination. DA after DA. There's one right after the other. Yeah. Well, but he was right. No, he's right. What this guy did was despicable.

Then you get to 95. towards the end of 95, his second trial started. And this was one trial that combined the murders of Margaret Schmidt, Sean T. Woodman, and Betty Lou Williams. Again, we're not going to go into the details. Suffice to say, the prosecution had a lot of ammunition. Yeah. Because it took the jury less than an hour.

Well, you know, that's not good for the defense. to come back with a guilty verdict. And he received death sentences in the murders of Woodman and Schmidt. He was convicted of murder for causing the death of Betty Lou Williams. And he was sentenced to another 89 years. 89. Such an odd number. It is.

But he already had three death sentences. No, I just spent 89. It's an odd number. It is an odd number. But the weird thing about this trial and probably the reason why it took the jury less than an hour to make their decision was Barone refused to let his attorneys really do anything. He wouldn't let them call any witnesses. He wouldn't even let them deliver a closing argument or rail against the death penalty. And I guess at one point the judge asked Barone.

if he was sure that's the way he wanted things to go, he wouldn't answer. So his attorney said, this is his trial. This is his life. He doesn't want any closing argument made. And I'm going to abide by his wishes. So do you just think they were trying to spare him from the death penalty? Yeah, I think at that point, they knew they weren't going to get him acquitted of these three murders.

there was too much evidence. I agree with you. I think what his attorneys were trying to do was spare him the death penalty. Now, he already had one. Yeah. But, I mean, I think because the attorneys knew and would say that, you know, their client was a psychopathic killer. Normally not good when your attorney comes out and says, yeah, my client's a psychopathic killer. but in saying that, I think what they were, they were trying to do was admit right off the bat.

Yeah, this guy's a killer, but you should spare his life. And the reason why they gave for that was they wanted experts to be able to study his brain. That's the reason they gave. Isn't that weird to me, you know? I mean, I know science wants to study my brain eventually. Well, if I was a scientist that studied brains, I don't know what the name of that is, because I'm not smart enough. Brainology.

A brainologist. Yeah. If I was one of those people, I would want to make my whole career about dissecting and studying the brains of serial killers. And you. Thank you. And Gibbys. Cereal killer and gibbies.

I could be the final chapter of volume 20. You theoretically could unlock the secrets of all the mysteries. Pyramids. everything. Well, I meant related to true crime, but yeah, okay. Who knows? I don't know what's in your brain. I don't even think you know what's in there sometimes. I just know that alien touched my head and nothing's been the same sense. I think on the one hand, you can look at it as trivial, right? They're trying to spare him additional death sentences. He already has one. He's going to die. But what if that one gets overturned? Now he no longer has any, you know,

assuming they were able to spare him in this second trial of receiving, you know, the death sentence. So really from that standpoint, it's not trivial. One thing that I found very interesting was the reporting around Barone's demeanor in both of these trials. So in the first trial, he was said to have been very civil. But in the second trial, it was almost Gibbs like the gloves were off. And they probably were. Because at this point, he's already been. sentenced to death for the murder of Martha, he was very belligerent. At one point, during the second trial, he filed a motion to unseat the all-white jury because he said he had black ancestry. And there was no way he could have an all-white jury. He filed motions to fire his attorneys because he said they weren't listening to him. They weren't following his suggestions for the

trial, and I'm not sure they were at a certain point if they are coming out and admitting that he is a psychopathic killer. I'm sure that was not one of his suggestions. You know what? Go on out. Tell the jury that I'm a psychopathic killer. No, I think you're right. I don't think that was something he wanted them to do. Yeah, my assumption is they probably took that upon themselves to try. Broan went on to appeal all. of his convictions. But in 1999, his death sentences were all upheld. His convictions were upheld. His sentences were upheld. But then we have to go back to Florida because we mentioned it, right? They reopened the case of the murder of Alistock. And he was charged in Florida with the murder of Alistock in 1994.

But Florida officials dropped the charges in 2000. Well, it's a pretty old case for one. on. Yeah, I think that's one of the things that they talked about when they dropped it was, you know, pretty difficult to prosecute a 20-year-old case that really had very little evidence to start with. Yes. Now, 20 years later, this is kind of the West Memphis 3 argument, if you remember from that case. Right. Of why the state agreed to the Alford plea as, you know, opposed to going forward with a new trial. One of the reasons they gave was there's just too many years that have gone by. Witnesses have died.

Witnesses have changed their story. Well, and you also have the cost factor involved. Are you going to spend the state's money to try somebody that's already sitting in another state's death row? And has the additional sentences that he has behind it anyway. Right. He's never getting out. Yeah. So why would you want to spend all that money?

to procure a guilty verdict. I mean, what's it going to get you besides a piece of paper that you got them for what you already knew you had them for? Yeah, and other than that, you can say, well, we did this for the family, right? Maybe that's the other thing that you can do. Yeah, I get that. But I also think the family probably realizes they got them and it's locked down. We don't need to put ourselves through this either. Well, that's the other thing.

you are putting the family through reopening, reliving that time in their life. But they did move forward with it, you know, from 1994 to 2000. They actually extradited Barone to Florida for a period of time while they were getting ready to prosecute him. And it was a circus. He said he was going to defend himself. And then he changed his mind, said he wanted legal counsel. but it doesn't matter. Ultimately, they dropped the charges. But as I was researching this case, Gibbs,

I found an interesting op-ed piece that was written in the South Florida Sentinel newspaper. It was from a man who was railing against this whole thing, right? Just kind of like what you talked about, the extradition, the trial of Caesar Barone. So he said, we don't have money for schools. We don't have money for roads and a host of other things. But apparently, we have enough money to send people out to Oregon to get this guy and to pay for his legal defense, not to mention all the money surrounding his care and eventual appeals if he's convicted. No, I'm with this guy, man.

You know, I mean, I get it. There's probably some things that have to occur once you decide to prosecute this guy. but why even make that decision to do that? If you took the time to study the file, study the case, and knowing where he's already sitting, why even move it forward besides the fact you want to try to do something for the victim? But maybe talk to the family first

and just let them know, hey, when this is all said and done, the results aren't going to matter because we already got the end results up in, you know, the state of Oregon. I think the one piece that we're missing here is the family. We don't know what the family's wishes were. And maybe they said, yeah, we want this guy prosecuted for the murder of our family member.

I don't know. Maybe they put a lot of pressure. Maybe the family wasn't around at that time, 20 years later. Yeah, we don't know. Yeah. So I think maybe what they could have done was just instead of going after him, the way that they were, was just to see if they could get the state of Oregon officials to just allow her family to attend. the execution. So they get closure as well instead of going through any type of trial process.

Again, all that's good. I just don't know what her family wanted. And I think that is a big missing piece. But that wouldn't have helped because Caesar Barone is not going to make it to his execution. He died on December 24th, 2009 at the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem, Oregon. He died of a large heart tumor. And you think about it, this guy was only 49 years old. Yeah, young. He was young when he started committing crimes. He was, you know, still fairly young when he committed these murders in Oregon. There were some fascinating people housed at this same place where he was.

Jerry Brutus was there for a period of time up until 2006, I think. It said he was the longest resident at this prison. He was there from like 69 to 2006. That's a stint. That's quite a hole. Yeah. That's a lot of pairs of shoes. That it is.

You can figure his old cell is just nothing but shoes. It's a lot of prison cell workouts. Gary Gilmore was there for a time. And there's a lot of people there now, some that we've profiled. Randall Woodfield, we haven't profiled him, the I-5 killer, Dayton, Leroy Rogers, Keith Hunter, Jesperson. we did him and Christian Longo, we did him on true crime all the time as well. Yeah, we did.

They're all there right now. So you talk about Barone. This is a man convicted of a number of murders, but police suspect that he's responsible for many more in some of the states he killed in and in other states, maybe Washington, states around Oregon, around Florida, because we know he killed there and they think he probably killed more. But Oregon, Washington, Florida, those for sure were places that he was known to be. And there are many unsolved murders that police like him for. They can't prove that it was him, but they like him for. They think it looks pretty good. I think you have women of a certain age

killed in a certain manner. There's probably a host of murders like that that they're going to say, hey, that looks awfully similar to how Caesar Barone operated. Yeah. Well, you know, maybe if he didn't die of a hard issue, maybe he would have came clean on a few of them as he got older. Yeah, he never did, right? He never admitted to any more before his death. And now we may never know unless there are some DNA or there's something like that

that can tie him to some unsolved murders. I do think police were hopeful that why. while he was in prison, he would admit to more of his crimes. But apparently, Barone told a paper, tell them not to hold their breath. I have no intention whatsoever of spending my life in prison and dying in prison. So I think at the point that he made that statement, he was hoping to get out. Sure. But we know he didn't.

No. And it just so happens that he did both of those things. He spent the rest of his life in prison and he died in prison. You did. But that's it. That's the case of Caesar Barone. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. Let's do those.

Let's hear them. Hey, Mike and Gibby. It's Nicole calling from Ontario, Canada. I just wanted to drop you line and say, love your podcast. I'm fairly new to listening to them. I have a part-time job and a commute every day on top of that to my full-time job. So when the radio broke in my car and I was too cheap to fix it, I decided to start listening to podcasts on my phone. I do have to say, though, I do blame you guys.

for being paranoid and afraid all the time when I'm getting out of my vehicle or in parking garages. But anyway, you guys make me laugh. You make my days go by a lot more quickly. Keep it all up. Keep up the good work, guys. Your own time,

ticking. And much love from Canada. Bye. Hey. Hey, take off, eh? Yeah, Ontario. So she called it paranoid and afraid. We call it being prepared and keeping your head on a swivel.

That's right. Always knowing. It's just a difference in words. Come on, Nicol. But we do hear that. a lot from people that say they are more cognizant. I'll use that word of what's going on around them. Yeah. Whether it's, you know, parking in a parking lot, where you park, what you're looking for when you get out of the car. I think those are all good things. Those are things that I teach my 18 year old daughter. We talk about all the time.

You know, if you're going to be out at night, not to mention the fact that she's now has the true crime all time. Whistle on her key ring. That's important. Which a lot of people have ordered. It's really cool. I also like, you know, Nicole's a lot like me. She's a little frugal. Sure.

It's not fixed to radio when I have a good working phone here that I can just turn my volume up a little bit or put some headphones. Just listen to it on that. Yeah. I like when you call yourself frugal. I am. Hey, guys. This is Karen. I'm just giving you a call to let you know that I love the show.

Listen to it quite often when I'm working at night. night and I've really enjoyed the West Memphis three shows because I just I happen to like that case very much either way I had a suggestion for you there's a case there's a name for the case and I can't remember the name but it happened in the town I grew up and a there's a 48 hours special about it I think it's called the boy next door it's the murder of Tricia Pocasio and it ended up including Ashton Coochre in the story. later on. So you should look into that one and cover that case because it's never been officially solved as far as the Illinois connection, but the California connection was definitely

solved. Anyways, hope you keep going and keep the show coming. I really enjoy it. Thanks again, and we'll see you around. So that's a good case suggestion. Yeah, it sounded like it could go on either. Probably would do it on unsolved because there's a portion of it that sounds like it's unsolved. Yeah. But we'll have to look it up. We definitely will. Thank you. Hey guys. This is Camilla calling from Australia. I've called in before. I'm a long-term listener.

I have to call in because I just heard my sister from Down Under kind of from New Zealand, phone in and leave a lovely message and then listen to you go talk about shewlers and mates and Kiwis

and I had a little pickle. So both Kiwis and of you do call females, mates, everyone calls each other mate. Sheila is kind of a derogatory term, so if you call the woman a Sheila in Australia or New Zealand, said woman might be a bit of a rub-up the wrong way. And a Kiwi is a bird, or the birds in New Zealand are actually flightless because they have no land predators, and the Kiwi is their national bird. And it's also the name, I suppose of a fruit that we eat.

But yeah, I love New Zealand. I was there for a while and I love Australia and I love living at the bottom of the world. And I also love your podcast. So keep your own time to see. And have a great day. Bye. And I can't wait to visit the bottom of the world. I know.

You and I want to go so bad. We do. So I did not know that. We learned something today. I know you were talking about Sheila's or something. And something you probably got from Crocodile Dundee, because I think he called everybody a shield. I think he did. I didn't realize it was some, it was kind of derogatory.

No, I didn't either. It doesn't mean you'll stop using it. But now that you know, you might, you might want to rethink it. Might. Kiwi. I mean, I wonder what Kiwi was. And it was a good fruit and all, but I didn't know what Kiwi met for as New Zealanders. But now you know.

But now. And a lot of people have told us that it's the national. I knew it was a bird. I didn't realize it was the national bird. Yeah, but I didn't know why they called themselves Kiwi. So they were sending pictures of birds. I was like, okay, so it's a bird. I knew why.

I just messing with them. Hey, guys, this is Ashley from Wisconsin. I just want to tell you how much I love you. Me and my friend Kristen are always discussing your podcast every Sunday, the video chat in the morning, discuss what we've learned, what was funny for your true crime all the time, suggestion of the bad Phillips case. Check that out from Baraboo, Wisconsin. Other than being super nervous and leaving a really long voicemail, just want to tell you guys we love you and stay safe. Keep your own time taken.

So the one thing I will say is the voicemail will not be as long when she hears it through the magic of editing. What do, Magic, Mike. I know. But I do like how they critique us. Talk about what was good, what was funny. I mean, good critique, you know, like, yeah, yeah, not negative. I heard it. Yeah, I mean, if it wasn't, it was probably like, you know, that furgy.

I know. There he goes, saying that bad again. He just talks and talks. He won't let Givie talk at all. Givie tries to break in every time. I'm like, you can hear Givie going. Oh, I'm sure. People can hear that.

Like, you're just ready to pounds. I'm just ready to give you, like, explosive information. Oh, my gosh. We had mailbag. Oh, that's cool. Ashley Scott sent us some jerky, which is good because our jerky supply was being severely tested. I don't know she's related to Michael.

Michael Scott. Yeah. So some good jerky? Yeah, good jerky. Have you broke into it yet? No, I was waiting for you. All right. And a Harley Chip from Denton, Texas.

Well, I know you like that. Which is very cool. Yeah. It's my middle name. Yeah. Tucker Denton. Denton. Tucker.

And then Lisa Sabo, our 911 dispatcher friend. Yeah. She sent us a book on a case that she wants us to cover. Cool. But she also sent us two authentic 911 dispatch patches. Really? Yeah, it looks like something that somebody would wear on their uniform, I'm guessing. Is it iron on or is it like sew it on?

I don't know. I didn't get that into it. Oh. So I'm not sure we're honorary 911 dispatchers, but we can call ourselves that. Well, so like, you know, like I have my police gear and firefighter gear. my different things I use depending on what I'm doing. Yeah. So now I can.

In your village people tribute band? Yeah. I've been there. Hey, I was front row last time. Hey, there's a good reason why you're on front row too. VIP. You walked into that. No, I know, I did.

I did. I gave you the VIP tickets too. I take care of my friends. So anyway, if I could use this patch as another one of my disguises. I'm sure you could. It'd be helpful. So thank you. you for that. All right, everyone. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So

from Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. So 911 patch is cool. I'm thinking we could do like 911, like 911 Reno, which was a great show. Remember that? Yeah, it was called Reno 911, but I did like it. Oh, well, you know, however you want it, but we should be doing like a- It was a good show. We should do a show like that with our patches on. Okay. That's what I'm thinking. You sit around in your tidy whitties? Mm-hmm.

I remember on that show, that guy would wear his tidy-wities a lot. No, he didn't. He just wore really tight uniform shorts. It looked like tidy-whites to me, man. No, he wasn't walking around. You could be that guy. That could be you. Why do I have to be the guy that walks around his tidy-wities?

You wear shit like that all the time. I do not. You have never once in your entire life seen me walking around in my underwear. First of all, I don't wear tidy wodies. Because you don't walk around. You sit around. I don't wear tight-old. I don't wear.

We're tidy whiteies for one thing. And I don't even want to remember what happened at CrimeCon that one night I had to share her bed with you. I don't want to. I saw you come out with a robe on. Then I saw you like undo the robe and then I turned away. I turned away. It did not see. That's crazy.

Oh, oh shit, Gibbs. I forgot to hit the button. Oh, well, leave it in there because it's what they need to hear. All right.