True Crime All The Time - Charles Ray Hatcher

Episode Date: January 8, 2018

Charles Ray Hatcher would start off his life of crime at early age beginning with a string of auto thefts. He would be be arrested and sent to prison so many times that at one point he had spent nearly half of his life incarcerated. But Hatcher had a knack for making officials believe that he had mental problems so that he would be sent to state mental hospitals where his chance of escape would be better. But Hatcher would eventually begin to murder and after being caught would tell law enforcement that he had killed 16.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Charles Ray Hatcher, a master manipulator that used many different aliases and was able to con almost everyone with whom he came into contact. Did he really murder as many people as he has claimed. Police are not certain but what they do know is that Hatcher was a monster.You can help support the show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.comCredits:Writing/research - Maggie DobschuetzSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 60 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, what's going on today? Hey man, how you doing? I'm doing great. It's the past the new year. So happy belated new year. This is officially the first episode of 2018. Yeah, you're right. Last week's came out on the 31st. Yeah, we just missed it. But most people listened to it. It was funny because I, I, I looked at the breakdown of listens last week. And normally Monday is like the biggest day. But Monday was the first.

And so Monday and Tuesday were kind of neck and neck this last week because most people probably went back to work on Tuesday. On Tuesday? Yep. Yeah, I think a lot of people like listening to their commute or why they're sitting in their cubicle office or. We hear that a lot. Yeah.

Talking about people talking about listening to it in the office and some people. listening to their jail cell. I don't know who's doing that, but... Big Bobby Lee, remember? He said, hey, look you boys up when I get out. Yeah, we'll wait around on that, I guess. Yeah. But episode 60, Gibbs, can you believe it? That's a lot, man.

Episode 60. Did you ever even think we would get to 60? It's like how old you are. I know. 6-0. That's a lot of episodes, 60, man. It really is. I'm surprised I'm still here. I am, too. If you think back to the time when we started to now...

59 episodes back. Yeah, 59 episodes ago. Crazy thinking that we would even get to 60 from where we started. Yeah, I'm amazed, man. Thinking that we were just going to have a little fun and maybe some of our friends would listen to it and a couple other people, but... None of our friends or family listen, but all you folks do. We love it.

This is a whole lot of people. Yep, we appreciate it so much. All right, Gibbs, we've got some new Patreon supporters. That's good. It's always good. It is always good. We had Cindy Krause, Casey Smith jumped out at our highest level. Awesome.

Lainey Butler, Laura Leah Williams. Yeah. Rebecca Flores Holdaway. Got to hold it away, man. Got to. Liz Skinner, Jen Armstrong. You remember that toy back from the... Yeah, the Stretch Armstrong?

I love Stretch Armstrong. Yeah, I cut mine open to see what was inside. Did you? What was it? Like a jelly-ish-looking stuff? It was. I remember we were playing around with it one time. and I threw it up.

I was throwing it and like catching it and stuff. Yeah. I made a bad throw and it got up on the roof. Uh-oh. Like my jart? Yeah, like your jart story where it went through somebody's roof. Yeah, that was a sad day because my dad wouldn't go up there and get it right away. It took a while.

He made you wait. It taught you a lesson. He did. Don't throw your stuff on the roof. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Constance Smith jumped out at our highest level. Awesome. We had a J.A. Prize. Melanie Milbury. we had Maddie Timmy. Maddie was awesome because she sent me an email and said, this is how you say my name.

She said, this is how you say my name? Yeah. So it's just, in an email. In an email. She said like, Timmy. This is how you, so she gave you the phonics of it? No, she spelled out the word like the name Timmy. Oh, so I got you.

And said, this is how you said. So kind of like a phonics. Yeah. Yeah. Your type of phonics. My type of phonics. You're hooked on phonics. My hook on phonics.

Didn't you? You developed that, didn't you? As a small child? That's why I have everything I have today. Yeah. I mean, you're like the creator of Hooked On Phonic. That's right. I'm also the guy that did that funky math that everybody hates now. The new, what people call the new math? The new math. Yeah, that was me. Thank you. You're welcome. Sophie Bomer. We had Carolyn Markley. Yeah.

Carrie Boys. Boys. And I'm really emphasizing the boys. Boys. Boys. And then if we go back in the boys. to the Patreon Vault Gibbs. It's like taking DeLorean back in time. It is. Yeah. See, Doc and whoever else was in that movie. A very famous movie that you can only think of one person?

Yeah, I know. What was Doc's last name? Doc. I don't remember. Doc Brown. Doc Brown. That's it. What was his first name?

Doc. Emmett. Emmett Brown. Dr. Emmett Brown. Dr. Emmett Brown. Yeah. Michael J. Fox. I'm pretty.

Michael J. Fox. I can't remember what his name was, but Michael J. Fox played him. Marty McFly. I should remember that because you called me that all the time. I said, hello, McFly. Yeah, yeah. I think he might have something to do with my outwear that I put on sometimes. My little.

Oh, yeah, yeah, when you wear your, what do you call it? Coat vest thing. It's like a, it looks like a ski coat, but it's a vest. It's cool. And I keep saying you look like Marty, like you're in the Coast Guard. or something. That's right. So this week for the Vault Gibbs, we selected Kirby Raycraft. Great name, man. It is a really cool name. Kirby's been with us a long time, long time listener, long time supporter. So big shout out to Kirby. Good sweeper too. It is a great sweeper. And a big shout

out to all of our new Patreon supporters and all the people that continue to support us month after month. I appreciate it. Yeah, we do. We really appreciate it. We had a lot of people supporting us on PayPal recently as well. We had Karen Spence, Elizabeth Armour, Max Estinger, Deanna Smiley. Yeah. Love Deanna. Lori Rodley and Christopher Flynn. Karen's a big contributor on social media as well. Karen Spence. Yeah. Awesome. And again, we never want to leave out our social media friends, supporting us on Twitter, Facebook. Oh, man. We got so. So many great moderators, administrators on the group pages that are helping us out, love that. You know, we have a, we have a, there's a T-Cat fit page now.

Yeah, they're trying to get me in shape. Yeah. I got to start working out now. Kristen and Haley started that. They created a page just so I'll get off my rear end and get in shape for 2018. Are you going to do it? Yeah, they're fit shaming me. Quit eating all those little weenies.

What do you mean like this little Viena sausage? Yeah. Those little smokies? A little smokies. Pigs in a blanket? Pigs in a blanket. Wrapped in bacon. They're fit shaming me.

I'm going to have to do it, man. You show them. I'm going to show them. That's the one thing about you. If you commit to something, you just don't commit. You go like, oh, you go balls out big time. You drop it, man. The problem is I have to commit.

Yeah. That's a scary part. But if you do do it. Or do do do. If you do, there'd be a truck here tomorrow with all the equipment that you would ever dream of that. I already have all that. This is the sad part of you already have all the equipment. I just don't use it.

It's like walking into NASA, man, with the, or NASA. You said NASA again. NASA. It's like walking into NASA with all this high-tech fitness equipment down here. I don't know why you're equating NASA with fitness, but. You know, I don't know. Although that Bowflex was developed for the space space. Maybe that's why I keep referencing that.

Maybe. All right, Gibbs, let's talk a little bit about Unsolved. After you listen to this episode, make sure you download the, True Crime All the Time Unsolved episode out right now. It's on Blair Adams. It's a Canadian man that basically entered the United States through a very circuitous route. Yes, very circuitous. Instead of events. And it's just a huge mystery. I mean, he was ultimately found murdered, but there is such a mystery around not only his death, but the events leading up to it.

Absolutely. I agree with that. 100%. Very intriguing. I'm glad you do. I'm glad you do. I don't know what I would do if you said I didn't agree. I'd be heartbroken.

Devastated. Devastated. And got to give a big shout out to Maggie for the writing and research and all of that help. It's instrumental. All right, Gibbs. Let's talk about the subject of episode 60. And we talked about. wanting to do some lesser known cases. Right. And so we picked one to start out 2018. Now, we're talking

about Charles Ray Hatcher. And I was thinking about this Gibbs. This guy, you know, he was, he's brutal. Murdered maybe as many as 16 people, maybe more. And I was thinking about the fact that, okay, this is a lesser known case, even though, you know, his body count is very high. Exactly. He's. He's got the numbers that he should be more well-known. But he's not. No. And it doesn't go by that, right? You have people that murder one or two individuals and are much more infamous, well-known.

Sure. It's a strange set of circumstances around each case that kind of determine, I guess, how much- attraction to it? Yeah, how much media coverage it gets, how well-known it is, things like that. And we haven't talked about nicknames in a while. You know, a lot of these serial killers get nicknames given to them by the media, the press, TV, whoever it is. This Charles Ray Hatcher Gibbs, he had a lot of nicknames. You know, I saw him listed as Crazy Charlie.

There was one out there that said a one man crime wave. And then he was listed as Mr. Prince. Mr. Prince, which I thought was pretty strange. He's a guy's definitely no prince. That's for damn sure. Maybe Prince of Darkness, maybe. Terror. But Charles Ray Hatcher was born on July 16th, 1929.

He was born in Mound City, Missouri, and that's located about 34 miles north of St. Joseph, Missouri. He was born to Jesse and Lula Hatcher, Lula. That's a name you don't hear very much, do you? Or is that one that's coming back? I mean, it's an older name. Because, you know, a lot of those older names are coming. coming back now. Yeah.

But some... That's true. Some of them aren't. I mean, my little niece is named Miller. That's their first name? Mm-hmm. That's a cool name. Yeah, Miller.

They saw the beer bottle and said, that's it. Drinking a lot of Miller? Yeah. That led to conception, and they were just like, hey, that's it. Yeah. We're going to roll with that. Let's name her after that. But, yeah, Lula is...

That might be one of those that's coming back in vogue. I don't know. Is that short for Luan? I don't... How would it be short for Luan when there's two L's in there? There's one. Why would you need to... shortened Luan that's not very long to begin with.

That's true. I don't know. Her name was Lula. Lula. Kind of like Lola, but with a U. But Hatcher was the youngest of three boys. So he had older brothers named Arthur, Jesse Jr. and Floyd.

And Charles Hatcher would have his first experience with death very early in life. I mean, we're talking six years old because he watched one of his older brothers die in the spring of 1935. So it's six years old. And the story goes that he was flying a kite with his brothers.

And for some reason, the kite had some copper wiring on it. So they were using that really thin copper wiring back in that day instead of string. Maybe. Maybe they didn't have any. I mean, we are talking about 1935. Yeah.

So you're using whatever you can get your hands on. Sure. But they got some of this copper wire from an old Model T-4. And his older brother, Arthur, was flying the kite. And as he was about ready to hand it over to Charles, the kite got caught on a power line. Sure. And here comes the electricity. And electrocuted Arthur, and he died instantly.

It's like the whole Ben Franklin thing all over again. So that would have been pretty rough. Yeah, it would have been rough to see that happen. For a six-year-old to see his older brother, you know, die right before his eyes. So fast forward to Charles is 16 years old. It's 1945. His parents are divorced now. And he moved with his mother and her third husband to St. Joseph, Missouri. So bigger city, right? St. Joseph is, I'm assuming much bigger than Mound City because I never heard of Mound City. And a couple of years later, Charles would get his first job. He's 18 years old. He gets a job setting up Pins. at a bowling alley. And I know Gibbs, back in the 50s, you used to do that. Oh, sure.

You said you loved it. Before I was born. I came out early. Came out of the womb, setting up pins at the bowling alley. Set up the pins of the bowling alley. But, you know, what a job. You know, we take that for granted. You go bowling today.

I don't do a lot of bowling. But we take it for granted, right? That when you throw the ball and the pins get knocked down, the machine comes down, picks them up. You belong to a freaking bowling league. I do not. You have the shirt, the bowling bag, the shoes. it's all by your front door. I see it there.

I do love the big Lobowski, but I'm not in a bowling league. Yeah. So does that still happen today? That there's somebody back there doing it? Or is the machine? No, I just said there's a machine that comes down. Scoops it off.

Clears out the ones that got knocked down. And then eventually resets them after the frames over. Oh. Right? I got you now. You've been bowling before. I don't pay attention. I hit strikes and I turn it around.

You just like... Strike it, boom. But before the machine, there was, really was people back there that would have to, you know, reset the pins manually. It seemed like it'd be a lot of work. Could be. Probably running, running from lane to lane. On a busy night, you'd be busting your ass trying to get those pins up in time.

And so he was doing that. He also at 18, this guy was a worker. I mean, he got a job as a truck driver hauling logs. But that only lasted a couple weeks because he got fired. And the reason why he got fired is because the company filed a report that one of their trucks had been stolen. But Charles Hatcher returned the truck the next morning after it was reported missing. The problem was he was drunk. So he's trying to be safe and not drive it while he was intoxicated and parked it.

Maybe. Or maybe he was drunk and drove it all around the town. I don't know. But either way, they fired him because he had taken the truck and. returned it drunk, I guess. He actually got charged with auto theft and received a two-year suspended sentence for that. The next year in February, 1948, he got a job at the St. Francis Hotel. And he was washing dishes.

He was doing all types of odd jobs, anything that needed to be done around the hotel. But it was during this time that he was convicted of auto theft again because he stole a 1937 Buick. Wasn't that your first car, Gibbs? 37 Buick. Man, it was a beauty. Back when you used to take Betty Lou to the sock hop. Yeah.

Had those white seats back then. 37 Buick, Gibbs with his hair slicked back and a pompadour. I can see it now, man. Looking good, man. I bet you were. Yeah. A little loafers on. Penny loafers with the actual pennies in them?

I put quarters of mine. This is because you were a baller. I was a baller. But he got two years in the Missouri State Penn. for this. Now, he was let out of prison in June of 49. He didn't serve the entire two years. He served like a year and some change. Sure. Makes sense. But it's not long after getting out. Just October of the same year, he was convicted on a forgery charge because he forged a $10 check and he got three years at the Missouri State Penitentiary for this one. He's getting to know the system pretty well.

So he knows the Missouri State Penn pretty well already at a relatively young age. He's only going to spend two of the three years there because he's going to escape from prison, which is very odd to me, Gibbs. You've done two out of the three, and you're going to wait till that point to try to escape? Why would you do that with the chances of getting caught and having that time at it, plus all the escape time? That does make sense. And that's what happens.

gets caught. They tack on two more years for that, but that's not even the kicker. Because in the short time that he's out after escaping, he committed a burglary. I mean, this guy just can't stay out of trouble. He's just, he just don't know no better. He's just a bad seed all, you know, all way around. Yeah. So he's finally released from prison in July of 1954. So he's all reformed now. Oh, yeah, he's totally reformed. He's a good guy. guy. He's going to be on the straight and narrow. He can't even spend a whole year outside of prison without getting caught. In February 55, he steals a 1951 Ford. This is in Oric, Missouri. He gets four years for car theft. And while he was in, he tried to escape again. So they added two more years

onto his sentence. This dude just doesn't learn. No, he doesn't. So they don't let him out of prison until March of 59. He's 29 years old at this point. He has already served six different prison sentences by the time he's 29 years old. So you are either incorrigible. That's my word for the show. Or you're just a dumbass who can't get away with anything. So I don't know if he's doing a whole bunch of stuff and only getting caught for some of it.

It sounds like he's getting caught every time he does anything. I was going to go with a dumbass one. I think he's a dumbass. Which right now he's just a dumbass. He's going to become a monster. Right now he's just stealing cars. And I say just, but he obviously hasn't killed anybody at this point.

Yeah, he's not a high risk. No. Yeah. He's not hurting people. No. But on June 26th of 59, so again, he's only been out a matter of months.

Hatcher tries to kidnap a 16-year-old boy from St. Joseph, Missouri who worked for the local newspaper delivering newspapers and this is going to be his first violent crime because he threatened this boy with a butcher knife but the boy immediately goes to the police tells him what happened and hatcher gets arrested but it's not just that he gets arrested he's driving another stolen car at the time that he gets arrested so in november of 59 he's given five years back at the Missouri State Penitentiary. I wonder if he has the same room every time.

I don't know, but he's got to know everybody in that place. They're probably like, hey. They're like Norm. It's like Norm from cheers. Yeah, Norm. When he walks back in. So he got attempted kidnapping and car theft, but he was also charged under what they called back then the habitual criminal act.

But that doesn't seem like a lot, right? Five years? Because he was getting three, four years. for stealing a car. He tried to kidnap a 16-year-old boy at knife point. Now, he also happened to have stolen a car, so it didn't seem like he got a whole lot for this attempted kidnapping.

Yeah, not really. It's kind of messed up. While he was waiting to go to prison, he tried to break out of the local jail and escape. Of course. That's the best time to do it. This guy's a road scholar. Yeah.

Didn't work. And so, you know, he gets sent to the state pen. and it was said that it's at this point, you know, he's 29, 30 years old at this point. While he's in prison, he starts telling everybody that he's the most notorious criminal in northwest Missouri since Jesse James. Really? Yeah, it's a pretty bold statement. It's like saying you're notorious B-I-G.

Maybe I am. Maybe I am not. I know you don't like to talk about it. I don't like to talk about my past. But most people think that Charles Hatcher committed his first murder in prison. In July of 1961, there was an inmate who was found raped and stabbed to death in the loading dock of the kitchen there at the prison. And the man's name was Jerry Tharrington.

And the reason why they think it was Charles Hatcher is because he was on the kitchen crew when the murder happened. but the only person that was missing at the time that the murder happened. The problem was there wasn't enough evidence to convict him of murder. So all they could really do was send him to solitary confinement. But he was in solitary confinement for quite a period of time because the next year, he's still in there. And it's at that point that he sends a letter to the major that's running this state pen.

and in this letter he says that he knows that he needs some major psychological help. But they don't believe him. Prison officials don't believe him. The doctors don't believe him. They thought it was just a means for him to get back into Jen Pop. So he's not given any type of treatment whatsoever. Even though by everything you read Gibbs, he reached out. He sought treatment.

Now it might have not been for the right reason, but he wasn't. he wasn't given any i'm thinking he probably wanted to be moved to a less secure location so he could escape escape again and that's probably what they thought i mean they probably knew they had his record i'm sure i mean you know you've been there it's so much easier to get out of those infirmary rooms and it is the sure yeah you know i'll take a shiv just to get into you take a shiv every night or a shank or whatever i always get confused which one's a verb and which one's a noun. Do you shiv with a shank or do you shank with a shiv or can they be used interchangeably? Yeah, this was rolling. You know I just rolled over your comment. I know like it didn't happen.

Yeah, it never existed. I actually think I snored it at one point. Yeah, I got a kick out of it. Yeah. I'm sure you won't play that for everybody. I will. You probably will. But there were a lot of people that think after the fact, if he had received some substantial treatment, psychological treatment, he may not have gone on to do what he does. I think that's a hard statement to make, but. Yeah, I think that's really difficult to stay. I mean, is it possible? Sure.

I mean, he might have gotten some help and it might have not led him to become the monster that he does, but pretty tough to know. but he does eventually get released back to general population in October of 1962. And his sentence gets reduced, which is kind of strange because they think he killed a man while he was serving this sentence. Killed a man wise in prison. Sounds like a country music song. Johnny Cash.

Johnny Cash. Hello. My name is Johnny. That's pretty good. I know. Although I think he said I'm Johnny Cash. I do it my way. I know you do.

I don't do his way. You're actually a lot like Johnny Cash. The man in black. But don't you think it's odd Gibbs that they reduce his prison sentence, even though they're 96% sure that he killed a man? Yeah, I think so. It's a weird way to get parole. Yeah. So he ends up serving about three-fourths of what his original sentence was.

He gets released in August of 1963. But at this point, he's 34 years old and has spent, I don't know, I mean, close to half of his 34. four years, it seems like in prison. Quite a bit. It's a big chunk of his life. Yeah. So we fast forward to 69, August 27th, 1969. And this is when Charles Hatcher would say later on that he kidnapped a young boy in

Antioch, California. And apparently the boy was riding his bike and he was carrying a tennis racket while he was riding the bike. Hatcher offered him a ride and the boy accepted. But Charles Hatcher ends up driving this boy down to a creek, strangles him to death. Then just two days later, a six-year-old boy is reported missing in San Francisco. And he's last seen walking away with a man who offered to give him ice cream. And this story is told the police by a little girl who had been playing with this boy

right before the time that he was taken by this man. but this boy would be found by a man walking his dog. But what this guy stumbles upon Gibbs is not the boy. I mean, it's the boy being beaten and sexually assaulted. Like it's actually going on when this man walks up on. I can imagine walking up on something like that. What do you do? I mean, I know what you do.

I'll whip out that cape bar. I know you do. What is a non-CIA trained Jason-born person do? Call somebody like me. A guy with a certain particular set of skills. Yes. Yeah, exactly. But luckily that, you know, that this man walks by or, you know, happens along when he does.

Absolutely. Because who in the hell knows what would have happened? You know, the police show up. The boy survives and they get the man who's there. I mean, obviously it's going to be Charles Hatcher. Right. But when they're talking to him, he gives the name Albert Price. But when they check his ID, it says Hobart Prater.

So two different names now. Yeah. So he gives them one name. His ID says another. And we know his real name is something completely different. Hatcher was using this Albert Price alias and was actually brought up on charges for attempted sodomy and kidnapping. But before going to trial on these charges, he undergoes. some psychological evaluations.

They want to make sure that he's fit to stand trial. And what was said about this was that he pretended to be mentally ill as he's going through these tests because he doesn't want to go back to prison. He knows prison very well. He doesn't want to go back. So he's saying things to the, you know, to the, to the, to the doctors like he can hear voices. He's seeing things that that are not there. He pretends to be confused all, you know, at all times. He even faked some suicide attempts, it was said. And because of this, I mean,

I think he's able to snow the doctors and he sent to the California State Hospital. This is going to be the first of five stays in the California State Hospital for Charles Hatcher. So he's in this hospital for a while. I mean, over a year. And he's diagnosed. is having a passive aggressive personality with sexual deviation and pedophilia. It's pretty heavy. That doesn't seem like a good combination. No. At all.

But at a certain point, the hospital starts to figure him out. And they start to realize that, you know, he's putting on an act. So they tell the court system that, you know what, this guy's fit to stay in trial. But the judge is not having it. He wants more evaluations. And in January of 71, Hatcher is seen by a couple of psychiatrists. The first one said he was clinically insane and that he should be given intense treatment at a secure hospital.

And the other one essentially agreed saying that this guy's not fit to stand trial. But Hatcher wasn't waiting around for potential trial date down the road. road, he takes off. He escapes from the hospital. This guy's good at getting out of places. And this is June of 1971, but he's only out about a week. He's caught 90 miles away from the hospital in a town called Calusa, California. He's arrested for auto theft. And again, he used another alias this time, Richard Lee Grady. So he goes back to the California State Hospital, more tests. But by April of 72, the doctors figure out that all the different treatments that they're using, none of them are working. And they deem that Hatcher was a danger to others in the hospital.

So they send him to the state prison hospital in Vacaville, California. Eventually, he gets transferred to San Quentin. Speaking of Johnny Cash, he might have been there when Johnny was there giving his concert. I don't know. I was drinking that. What they called was water, but it wasn't. You actually do a pretty good Johnny Cash. You're not a good impressionist, but that one, that's not bad.

I sing like I'm too. Do you? I can't. Do it. I'm not going to do it now. I triple dog dare you. You can do whatever you want. I'm not going to do it.

But ultimately, it's going to be about three years after this crime before he gets a real trial. And even then, they're still doing, you know, exams to figure out his competency, trying to figure out whether he's sane, insane, he's finally convicted of kidnapping and the sexual assault of this little boy, but it's not until December of 1972. There's a lot of time go by there. Yeah, he's 43 years old by this point.

And even after the conviction, he doesn't go to prison. He goes back to this California State Hospital labeled as a mentally disordered sexual offender. In 73, he tries another escape from the hospital. And because of this escape attempt, they finally send him to a medium security prison. Now, a doctor would interview him in this prison later that year and label him a manipulative, institutionalized sociopath. This guy's got some bad labels, Gibbs. These are not labels that you want to have put on you.

No. And this doctor said, you know, this guy needs to be in a maximum security prison. He's old school bad dude. He is old school bad dude. But he didn't want to go to the Max prison. Who would, right? If you had your choice. Never, ever go to Max.

I don't want to go to any of them. But I certainly don't want to go to the Max hardcore with killers and all that. So Charles Hatcher, he decides that he's going to. going to slash his wrists. And this is how he's going to try to stay out of the max prison. And it works because, you know, now they're labeling him with paranoia, schizophrenia. So he stays where he is. He's not sent to this max prison. That crazy enough, man. He is very manipulative. I mean, if you think about it, he's able to work the system to get what he wants. Yeah. I mean, to take it to the point where you actually cut your wrist,

And I'm not talking, there's two ways to cut your wrists. The way you cut it to one attention and the way you cut it to actually make sure that you die. So imagine he cut it the way to get attention. Well, he didn't die, so. Yeah. I think that's pretty sound logic. Yeah. Or they got to him really quick.

Well, that could be too. Charles Hatcher Gibbs, he actually gets a parole review in 75. I mean, this guy is going through all kinds of stuff, but he kind of. comes up for parole. And at the hearing, he has guards saying that he's not a problem. He works in the kitchen. He does everything he's told. But he's not paroled.

He comes up again in 76. He's not paroled. Eventually, he's set to be paroled Christmas Day, 1978. But this gets bumped up because a bill passes that gives inmates credit for time that they had spent in jails and mental hospitals and it counts this time towards their prison sentences. So he's actually let go like 19 months sooner than he would have been. He's released in May of 1977, goes to a halfway house. But there was some restrictions placed on him.

He was supposed to be back at the house by nine every night. He was ordered to take nine different medications. day, but he lasts about five days at this halfway house and then he runs off. And he spends the next year on the run. But Hatcher's next victim would be a little boy named Eric Christian. And it's May 26th, 1978, and Gibbs, this kid is only four years old. Unbelievable. It really is. Four year old Eric Christian, he disappears in downtown St. Joseph, Missouri. So Hatcher's back in Missouri.

The body of this little boy would later turn up along the Missouri River, and they would figure out that he had been sexually abused and suffocated. And this, you know this would have been a huge event in St. Joseph, Missouri. Anytime something like this would happen to any child, but we're talking about a four-year-old. I mean, police are investigating everybody. And it was said that they focused on, and I'm using, this was the term that was used, every known pervert in town. And apparently they had over 100 suspects that they, perverts called perverts. And one of these was a man by the name of Melvin Reynolds.

And Melvin was 25 years old. It was said that he had very limited intelligence. And he himself had been sexually abused as a child. So they're investigating him and they're looking at him pretty hard. And although he was not happy about the investigation, I'm sure, he cooperated and went through many different interrogations over a period of months. He took two polygraph exams and even took one of the interrogations under hypnosis. That's a lot to go through.

That's a whole lot to go through. Then in December of 78, they questioned Reynolds using sodium amatol. Oh, that's so much fun. That's in your toolkit, right? The true serum? You can't even imagine how much fun you can have with that. Oh, my gosh. It wouldn't surprise me if you had it, if you used it, I don't want to know.

Let's just keep that secret. You're not allowed to talk about that by... It's hard to get anyway. binding legalities anyway. So you can only talk in general terms, I know. Yeah, just cut that part out, man. We can't let people know about all that. It's not right.

But this is what this man, Melvin Reynolds, is going through. And during this questioning under this truth serum, he makes a remark that intensifies police suspicion on him. And it's two months later in February of 79. So he had figured this guy's been going through this. for almost a year, not quite a year, but a long time. They bring him in for another round of interrogation. And it was said to have been 14 hours of questions, threats, and finally, he gives in.

I just think Gibbs, he got to the point where he says, if you want me to say I did it, I'll say I did it. He just had enough. They broke him. And ultimately, as the weeks went by, he would start to kind of add on to his confession because they were, the authorities were feeding him details of the crime, whether on purpose or not.

And he was using these details to make his confession more legitimate to the point where there was enough evidence to charge him. And a jury convicted him of secondary. degree murder. So this guy, Melvin Reynolds, he was sentenced to life in prison. Meanwhile, Charles Hatcher gets arrested in 78 in Omaha, Nebraska for a sexual attack on a teen boy 16 years old. He was also arrested for molesting a teen boy, attempting to stab a seven-year-old and it was said fighting for over payment for sex with a young man. This guy is, is every second of the day doing something wrong.

He molested a man in Lincoln, Nebraska. He tried to stab a guy in Des Moines, Iowa, and he kidnapped an 11-year-old boy from a mall in Iowa. But again, when he's arrested Gibbs, they send him to a mental hospital in Omaha, Nebraska, and he's using aliases, this time Richard Clark. So that's what he's arrested under. And in the research, I mean, there's really no,

no proof that anyone knew who he really was other than Richard Clark. On top of that, all these different places where he's being caught for these crimes over these years, they don't run his fingerprints. Right. This goes, what was that case we did where they had the problem with the fingerprints and the aliases? I can't remember the case now, but I mean, this is back in the 70s, so they don't have the same technology that they would today. He's getting caught, but they don't know that he's done all of these things, right? So it's almost like they're in a lot of, they're like isolated incidents. And he doesn't spend very long. I mean, he's released from this mental hospital. And then, you know, not very long after that in May of 79.

Now, keep in mind, we talked about Melvin Reynolds. Melvin Reynolds went through all of this. and it was in 79 when he actually, I think, got convicted. So Hatcher in 79, he gets arrested in Omaha again for trying to kill a seven-year-old boy. The charges get dropped and he gets sent to another mental hospital. I mean, this guy must have been a master manipulator. Manipulator. Knew how to work the system, knew how to make people think that he belonged in a mental hospital instead of, you know, serious Shiv, Shawshank, redemption, prisons.

Prisons. Where Sean Penn is. Well, he'll beat you up with a pillowcase full of pop cans. What's that one? Bad boys. Bad boys. What you're going to do? And again, I think because he's in these hospitals, he's able to get away, like you said, pretty easily.

And he just takes off and leaves this hospital. And the very next month, he gets arrested as Richard. Clark in Lincoln, Nebraska. And this is for the attempted sodomy and assault of a 17-year-old boy. He's released from a mental hospital after three weeks. Three weeks. He shows up in Iowa in 1981 and gets arrested in Des Moines for being in a knife fight. And even in Iowa, he bounces around from mental hospital to mental hospital, finally being released in Davenport, Iowa. So this guy is getting arrested for what you would have to say,

Gibbs, are pretty serious crimes. And we always talk about how easy people get out of prison for some pretty tough stuff. And this one's even more different because of his ability to make people think that he's mentally ill. And so he's doing even less time because my assumption is he's going in. He's going through some treatment.

And they're saying, all right, he's better. Yeah. And they're letting him out. Some people can really pull that off, you know. They could. I mean, I think I could fake people out on a few things for sure. I know you could. I think you fake yourself out sometimes.

We don't talk about that, man. Because we're talking about all of these things we're doing. And if you notice, we're not, we're not going very far in time. You know, 78, 79, 80, he's done a lot of stuff in those three years. He's been busy boy. Because they're letting him out to do it again and again. And again, granted, they don't know because he's using aliases and all these different things. They don't know that he's done as much as he has, I don't think.

Right. But still, you know, it's like he's just staying the night at a hotel with these prisons. Because it would only be June 20th of 1981. when Charles Hatcher would stab a man, 34-year-old James Churchill to death, on the banks of the Mississippi River. This is in Illinois now. And Hatcher would say that he'd been drinking and that he just had an impulse to kill. So that's the scary part.

It is. It'd be like me all of a sudden just decided to take you out right now. I'd like to see you try it. Oh, it can be done. You don't know what I got. I got you back in the corner, man. Yeah, but when you're, when I know that you're coming to record, I've got like 15 different weapons. I got stuff taped under my chair.

Yeah. You don't know what I got. Plus you get those special skills. Yeah, I got those special skills. But he does. I mean, he kills this man, this 34 year old James Churchill, stabbed him until the knife was stuck inside of the bone in his chest, in his rib cage. He couldn't get the knife out, Gibbs. It's pretty forceful.

I don't even know if I've heard of that before. Maybe got it lodged in between two of the rib bones and just couldn't shimmy it loose. I don't know. Knives are pretty thin. Yeah. The way it was described is that, you know, he stabbed this man somewhere 10, 12 times, very close to the heart. But at one point, it went into the bone and he couldn't get it out. But he wasn't caught for that.

And it would, the next month, though, he was arrested. in Bettendorf, Iowa, trying to kidnap an 11-year-old boy from a grocery store. Again, he used the alias Richard Clark, and the charges were dropped. And they sent him to a mental hospital. But here's the kicker, Gibbs. He spent 49 days. 49 days in this mental hospital. Now, the charges were dropped, and I don't know all the specifics around that.

But the other thing that you have to think about is he is not waiting. right between attacks. He, you know, there's not much of a cooling off period for him. You know, in July of 82, there's a young woman walking down the street in St. Joseph, Missouri. So he's back there again. When she stopped by what was described as a weird man, he walked up to her and said that he wanted to buy her some coffee.

She wasn't having any of it. She said no. She said, hey, get out of it. of here. I don't want anything to do with you. But this was about a block from where four-year-old Eric Christian was taken. The next day, Hatcher kidnapped a 10-year-old boy outside of a mall. But miraculously, the boy was able to get away. And Hatcher was gone before the police showed up. He's like Houdini, man. He does seem to have a knack for getting out of stuff. Yeah. Whether he's caught or not, even if he's caught.

caught, he's able to get out of it in pretty short order. I mean, it's, it's amazing. I don't think it would happen today. No, I don't think so either. We talk about that a lot. I mean, it's not like this was 80 years ago, though. It was the, it was, this is the early 80s. Mm-hmm. But it was a different time. 80-ish, yeah, I was in junior high. So we know none of these could have been you. We haven't talked about that in a while. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. not. Maybe not. I was a husky boy.

You were. Hard to get away with stuff. Hard way to get us. Because your husky jeans, it probably made so much noise. Just rubbing together that it made it hard for you to get away from things, I would think. I know. But on July 29th, right? So we're still in July of 1982.

He accosted a young woman. She got out of that. he tried to kidnap a 10 year old boy he was able to get away but 11 year old michel steel he did abduct her and killed her in st joseph and the story was that she was going to the dentist that day and she was there for about an hour 1030 to 1130 but she would never make it home from the dentist and when her mom got home just after three she realized that her daughter was not there she called the police And it was the very next day, Gibbs, that her uncle, Michelle Stills' uncle, was out looking for her. And I'm sure he wasn't the only one.

They probably had a lot of people looking for her. But he actually found her body wedged between two logs. That'd be rough. Can you imagine as an uncle or as a parent or, I mean, bad enough to have it happen, but to be the one that discovered the body? I've seen some bad things, man. That's one thing I wouldn't want to see. No, you would never see.

You'd never, I don't know how you ever get over that. You never would. But the place where Michelle was found, it was less than a mile from where Eric's body, the four-year-old, had been found. And this same day, Charles Hatcher would check himself into the hospital himself, voluntarily check himself into the hospital,

saying that he was hearing voices. but it wouldn't take long for police to figure out that it was Charles Hatcher that had abducted and killed Michelle Steele. But they would charge him under the name Richard Clark. I mean, this is the name that he had been using. The judge set bond at $250,000 and he had actually been seen at the river.

So there were two witnesses that were able to pick him out of a lineup. Police also found evidence. They found some cords, his backpack. They were able to determine from bite marks on the girl's body that they were made by Charles Hatcher or Richard Clark as they know him. Yeah. Sick dude. And they also matched his shoe prints to prints that were found by where the body was left.

So they had a lot of evidence against him. But he tried to work the system again, and he was being tested, but this time it didn't work. So he pled not guilty by reason of mental defect. And they actually get, they're giving him true serum. Did they use true serum that much back then Gibbs? I think so, man. I've never heard of so much, so many people given truth serum. And even with that, under the true serum, he said that he was hearing voices.

and that demons told him that he had to sacrifice Michelle Steele. And it's while he's awaiting trial, Charles Hatcher would give a police officer a piece of paper. And this paper said to call the FBI and tell them that he wanted to see them today. It was very important that he met with the FBI. And they actually did send an FBI agent. And Hatcher gave him a map with the location of the body of James Churchill. Now, he didn't say he killed him, but you got to know, Gibbs, at that point, the police are viewing Charles Hatcher, Richard Clark, whatever you want to call this guy at this point, as something's going on.

Exactly. Right. He's credible in the fact that he knows where this body is. How does he know where this body is if he didn't have something to do with it? Right. And it's around this. time where they finally figure out his real identity and they're able to charge him as Charles Hatcher. But it would come out Gibbs the list of aliases that he used. You know, Richard Clark,

Richard Harris, Richard Mark Clark, Richard Lee Grady, Richard Lee Price, Earl Calboe, Albert Eyre, Charles Marvin Tidwell. He came up with some names. Hobart Prater. We talked about that one. Ronald Springer, Albert Price, Dale Wilfong, he had a list of names. That's not even all of them. There's, there is a whole bunch of them. And it would come out that, you know, over the years, he had used, in addition to all of these different aliases, six different social security numbers. So we're up to May of 1983. Charles Hatcher is 53 years old. And his trial gets set for August 22nd, 1983. But before this trial takes place in July of 83, Charles Hatcher would finally confess to killing Eric Christian. And not only that, I mean, he would end up telling police everything. His whole

criminal history from, you know, going all the way back to, you know, 1947, up to present day 82 when he was finally caught for the last time. Trying to clear his conscious? I guess. I don't know. For as long as he had pretended, let's say, to have some mental issues. Right. It almost seems like over time, he did.

He morphed into it? I don't know. I mean, if you figure he's under truth serum, and granted, I don't know how well that stuff works, but I always heard it was pretty powerful. And he's talking about hearing voices and, And I don't know. I think if he wasn't from the beginning, it does seem like at some point, you know, he did have some issues mentally.

But what would come out of this? And it's the reason why I wanted to talk about Melvin Reynolds. Because remember, he's serving a life sentence for the murder of this four-year-old boy. Well, then all of a sudden, Charles Hatcher confesses to the crime. And Melvin Reynolds gets released. His lucky day. Yeah. I mean, you feel bad for somebody like that because, you know, from all the research and

everything, you know, they coerced that confession. There's just really no doubt about it. Right. I mean, they interrogated the guy how many times over very long period of time, for long periods of time, you know, at each interrogation. And finally, the guy just broke. He just couldn't take it anymore. And you always hear people say, why would you confess?

to something you would do. I would never do that, right? You hear people say that all the time. Yeah, I think everybody would say that, right? Until you get put in the position that Melvin Reynolds was. And granted, it was well known that he had a diminished capacity. He was a very low intelligence. So I'm sure that played a part in it too.

Probably a huge part of everything. But they just, you know, they wore him down. Yeah. It reminds me of the Brendan Dassey. case from from making a murderer again i don't know what's true and what's not true in that case but you can tell from the interviews that they really did wear that guy down and he was also known to be of a diminished capacity they made a big deal about that yeah i mean i can i can see that how you can how you could run it and run it out to get the result you want i mean kids are good at it

just with parents. Oh, yeah, my kids, that wear me down. Yeah, and you're like, fine,

do whatever you want. Do what you want. Just stop bugging me. Yeah. Yeah. So just do that, have that go non-stop for 16 hours and don't get to eat or drink or anything in between.

You probably, man. Yeah, I always wondered about that because you hear people say it all the time. And you, you want to think, oh,

that would never happen to me. And I would like to think it wouldn't. Right. But I don't know how much I can take, and nobody does until they're put in that position. We wouldn't be in that position because we both would say, I want an attorney. I want an attorney.

Yeah. Guilty or not, you know, you're going to say, I want an attorney. No, I get it. I think you got to put your ego aside thinking that you can, I'm not guilty, so I don't have anything to worry about. Next thing you know, you're sitting in prison because you... And I do think, you know, from some of the cases we've done, that's happened, right? Somebody goes in, especially on the unsuited.

solved where we know they didn't do it ultimately. But they go in thinking, you know, I got nothing to hide. I didn't do it. Right. And words get twisted. Things get turned around on them. Next thing you know, they're on trial for their life. Best thing you do is say, I want my attorney.

I just had my attorney's name tattooed on me. It's that look, call that number. So you wouldn't even have to talk? It would just say, yeah, I just pulled my shirt aside and said, look. What kind of shirt are you wearing where you just pull it aside? Any shirt. I pull any shirt aside. That seems strange.

I just pull it aside. Pull it aside. Okay, if you say I pull it up or I pull it down. I'll pull it aside. I got one of those fancy side shirt thing that you pull. Puffy shirt. Yeah. Puffy shirt.

From Seinfeld. So ultimately, you know, Charles Hatcher, he ends up confessing to, you know, all of these bad things that he's done over the years. he gets a life sentence for the murder of four-year-old Eric Christian. He ends up getting convicted of capital murder for the death of Michelle Steele in September of 1984. And what I found fascinating Gibbs is that in this one, the, when he was being tried for the death of Michelle Steele, he actually requested the death penalty. He wanted to be put to death, but the jury didn't listen to him.

And they gave him another life sentence. It'll make him think about it. Yeah. So on the one hand, I was kind of like, yeah, that's what he wants. Don't give it to him. Don't give him what he wants. He would go through the normal appeal process. He tried to get a new trial in December of 84.

All of that was denied. And it's on December 7, 1984. And this is going to tell you a lot about Charles Hatcher. Officers are, you know, they're making their scheduled routine walk around. And they shine a flashlight in his cell. And what they see is that Charles Hatcher has hanged himself in his cell. He had taken a piece of electrical wire. And it was said that the knot in the wire was located beneath his right ear.

And his hands had been tied behind. his back with a shoelace. So I don't know about you Gibbs, but it seemed like he was really trying to make sure that either he didn't have second thoughts or he wasn't able at the last minute to, you know, reach up and free himself. That's a lot of work to tie your hands and then in front of you and then pull your legs through to get them in the back of you and then go up there and slide your head through a noose without the use of your hands and then allow it to be tough.

Well, maybe he did the noose part first. I don't think so. And then tied his hands behind his back. I don't know how you can tie your hands behind your back. I think you tie him in front and then move them to the back. And then step through? Step through, yeah. Okay.

Yeah, either way, I don't know the mechanics of it, but it seems to me like he was pretty dead set, pardon my use of that pun, but he was set on. Didn't want it to stop. He wanted to make sure it went through. Yeah. Yeah. But we're talking about December of 84.

He didn't wait very long, right? I mean, he wanted out very, very quickly. Yeah. I mean, he wanted the death penalty to be, you know. Right. He wanted to be over. He was done. Yeah.

Granted, he'd been in prison for a number of years. He knew what was what a life sentence in maximum would be like. And the other thing that that I thought of while I was researching is that did he, he knew maybe at this point, he wasn't getting out of this one. Like he'd been able to finagle his way out of some of these other sentences. He wasn't getting out of this. This one was going to stick. He had two life sentences now for the murder of two, you know, one was four years old.

The other was 11 years old. He wasn't getting out. They busted in. They tried to revive him, but he was already dead. And on December 11th, 1984, a group of volunteers carried his remains and he was buried in the prison cemetery. Now, he had one brother still that was alive. Didn't want anything to do with him.

Didn't come to the funeral. Basically disowned him at that point. Can't blame him. I don't blame him at all. I mean, family is family. But if you've done the things that Charles Hatcher has done, man, it's hard to stick. It would be hard to stick by somebody. It would be really tough.

knowing how you and I feel about kids and crimes against kids. I don't know how you could even... It's hard to comprehend how you come from the same cloth. Yeah. So Gibbs, I guess with Charles Hatcher, you know, we mentioned up front 16 people. And he's confessed to 16. Now, whether he actually did all of that or whether he's embellishing, he was only convicted of two murdered.

So is it the fact that he only was convicted of two? why it's not so sensationalized as others? I mean, it could be. Because 16's a big number. It is. I just, I'm not sure that, that police believe it really is 16. We know it's more than two because, I mean, he gave a map leading to James Churchill's body. Right.

So we know the number is more than two. I think it is, too. I mean, why have so many aliases? I mean, how many did he have? Oh, he had. Like, 10? At least. I didn't even list them all.

So to have that many. I bet you had 15 or 20. See, that's a lot to have just for two people, five people, right? I mean, it's going to be in the higher numbers. It's the only reason you need aliases. Well, and that's only, we're only talking about murders. I mean, he victimized probably scores of people. It's a bad dude, man.

You know, we talked about how many are known of attempted abductions, attempted sexual assaults, how many actually occurred that nobody knows about. It's something that you and I talk about a lot. Because I think you have some killers, some really bad people that maybe want to embellish what they've done after they've already been caught. Right. But I think there's some that they don't want you to know the whole story. The silent killer?

Get it? I actually think that a lot of the ones that we talk about, there's more that you don't know about and the numbers are actually higher. In Hatcher's case, I'm not really sure because it is an older case. Right. And like you said, he used so many aliases and his fingerprints weren't taken a lot of the time. So very hard to connect him concretely to certain things. Well, and to be let in and out of prison all the time fairly easy.

It doesn't really stop you from wanting to continue. I mean, you're like, ah, if I do get caught, I get a way out. I'll warm my way out of it again. Yeah. All right. That is it. That's the case of Charles Hatcher. He's undoubtedly a very, very bad guy.

You know, and we didn't get a lot into his childhood just because, I mean, you're talking about the 1940s. It was a very long time ago. We did talk about some of the things. that he was diagnosed with, you know, schizophrenia, he was diagnosed as a sociopath, different mental disorders. But again, how much of that is real, how much of that was put on. Right. The actor. The actor, because he was looking to get out of the situation that he was in. He was trying not to go to prison. But I land in the camp of, you know, I do think that he had

something going on mentally. Like we, you and I sometimes talk about the wires getting crossed or... No, I think you can just be a bad person. And have no mental issues whatsoever. Right. I think he could be sane, but be at bad. Well, I don't mean insane. Okay.

I just mean like, I don't know, there's a part of me that thinks just the act of being able to harm a four-year-old in the way that he did. I don't mean that you have to be legally clinically insane, but there's got to be something going on. We're hoping there's something going on that there's a disconnect is what you're saying. You hate to think that any normal person could just do that. You're probably right. I mean, you're probably right that you can be 100% free from any type of mental issues. And you're just a bad person.

Right. And you're just intent on doing bad things. But that's a scarier thought. That is scary or thought. Right. Like you said, you want to think that, okay, there's something wrong with this person. Right. And that's what led to them doing what they did.

You don't want to think that this person, they just chose to do this because they wanted to. I know, you want to think there's some type of control in our system that besides the occasional oops, you know, it keeps you in. But I know, I know you're 100% right. There are just some bad people. And they just make the decisions. They want to make those decisions. They do. They're not forced to.

They're not, I don't even think they're misfiring. They are just. I don't know if it's even a decision. I think they just act. Yeah. They just do. They want. They want to and they just do it.

But that's the case of Charles Hatcher. Gibbs. We've got some voicemails. Oh. And send more too. And send more? Yeah, send more voicemails. I want to play this first one because it's a little different.

Hello Michael Ferguson and Michael Gibson. I hope you had a wonderful holiday. Someday we can meet face to face to face. And keep your own time, TikTok, ticking. Ha, ha, ha, slightly smiling face. Ormest regard. So sounds like Stephen Hawkins' sibling. It's not Hawkins.

Hawking. Stephen Hawking. Stephen Hawking. Not Hawkins. Not saying it in my English, even though he's from America, but moved over to England, right? Yeah. Or was he from England and moved to America? He's from England and moved to America. I don't know. I watched the movie. Did you see the movie? It's actually a really good movie. Yeah, the English moved to America. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, I'll admit, that was, that one was a little creepy the first time I heard it. And then, You know, I saw the name that that was on it when it came in, and it was a frog D. A. A frog damon. Deman.

Froggy demon. Yep. So I got to kick out of that part. But, I mean, that's not one you want to listen to in the dark for the first time. And it'll give you a little. Voice mail is scary you. I can tell. A little chill.

They scare you. We've had some scary ones, though. He said slightly, what do he say? Slightly. I'm assuming it's a man. It could be a woman doing with the computer generated voice or whatever. You just don't know. You just don't know.

I think that's great. You know, you're listening to us while you're tossing that salad and making the rest of your dinner, sauteing mushrooms. What kind of dinner are you making here, Gibbs? I don't know. I'm just rolling with. So far you've got salad, sauteed mushrooms. Maybe there's something in the oven, a little souffle.

candlelight dinner. Maybe some fava beans and a nice kianti. Nice kianti. What's up? Gizzy. It's him again. Just wanted to call and say I'm super, super excited because Christmas, getting a bit more money. I finally got to up my pledge. I'm thrilled about that. And one thing I really want to say is that, you know, I'm about to go back to school, had some time off, and I'm moving in about two weeks. And I'm super excited for it. But once you One thing is that I know in the beginning, not knowing anybody, a brand new place, it's probably going to be kind of lonely, but one thing I know is that you guys are always there for all of us. And you really feel like friends for all of us, I think.

And so one thing that I know for sure is that even if I feel a little bit lonely, I know you guys are always going to be there, always going to be there to make me laugh. So thank you guys. Bye. You know, this makes sense now because over. the weekend. I was in her area and I stopped by because I wanted to say, hey, and she didn't answer. Now it makes sense. She wasn't there. She moved. She moved. Yeah. I missed my opportunity. I'm sure she's thrilled about you. No. I just wanted to say, hey, Skibby, just wanted to say hi. We love it when M leaves voicemails, but I always get a kick out of it, you know, even when I see

like her on Instagram or something, because my oldest daughter, her name's Emmy, call her M. Yeah, you do. And I just all immediately think of that every time. Tie it all together. Yeah, every time I hear or see her name or hear her, I think of my daughter. But we are there for you in your move. I was there. I would have helped you box some things up, you know? We are not literally there, but figuratively, we are there for you. Mentally, we are there for you.

Hey, Mike and Givie, this is Sydney from Iowa. I just wanted to say, hey, and thanks for the amazing podcast that you guys created. I also wanted to give a shout out to my friend, Rachel, who on Dougalwee at my desk, after she hears this. Thanks and keep your own time taken. Bye. All right. Tiffany from Iowa.

Did you say Iowa? Iowa. Iowa, the football team that hurt the Buckeyes from going to the national championship game. That's all right. We still love Tiffany. Yeah, we do like Tiffany. And Rachel's at her desk right now.

And saying, I can't believe that you called in. And now they're saying my name, Rachel. And she's listening to it right now. Rachel, why don't you call and ask us to say Tiffany's name? Hey guys, my name's Augusta Andrade and I'm calling from Fresno, California. I just want to thank you guys for keeping me entertained. I have like two and a half commute every morning and on the way back so about five hours. So you guys keep me entertained pretty good.

Love what you guys do. Mixed emotions on different podcasts. Some are good and some are bad. And I just want to thank you guys. Keep up the good work. We like mixing up those emotions, Gibbs. And did I hear them right? I heard the commute to work was long enough, but on the way back, five hours?

No, two and a half each way. Okay. I think, yeah, two and a half, five hours total. Oh, that's good. I mean, that's not good. That's not good, dude. It's better than what I, yeah. I mean, I commute an hour to work.

Right. If I had to go two and a half hours. It is California, though, so we don't, I don't know how far that is. Well, it's five miles. It takes two and a half hours. I just left to go down to the corner store to get something. I came back three hours later. I might have to get up in the morning to get to work.

I would just go ahead and get some type of tent or something and sleep in the parking lot at work. I don't know. If it's a really good job, I might just move a lot closer because that is a long way. That is a long way. Hi, Mike and Gibby. This is Renee from Reno, Nevada. I just want to say what a great podcast you guys put out. You keep me working faster.

I have a house cleaning, pet sitting business, and I'm always working, and you keep me going on these podcasts. I just love them and all the work you do on them. I just want to thank you so much and keep it up and keep your own time of ticking. Thanks again, guys. Have a good one. Bye-bye. All right. Renee and Reno 911.

Reno 911. I wonder if she knows how to get blood out really well. What's the best way to get blood out of the, say, carpet? it. Why? Because she is a... She's a cleaner. Oh. You think she cleans up, it's not a crime scene cleaner. I don't know. She's a cleaner. We should start up a business doing crime scene cleanup.

Oh, that's paid good money, man. I know. Yeah, I don't know if you can handle it. You don't even like spiders. Now, that stuff doesn't bother me. So you can go and you can wipe down a wall full of matter? Yeah, that doesn't bother me at all. Really? Yeah. I just don't like creepy, crawly bugs and stuff.

And oceans. And no, I don't, yeah, you're right. I don't like to be. or the ocean. I've just had too many bad experiences. Yeah. It's not working. But you're okay walk into a crime scene and yeah scraping off the walls and stuff. Okay. I mean when I was going to be a doctor, they would let me in the operating room. Okay, doogie. When I thought I wanted to be a doctor. Okay. I volunteered at the hospital. Right. They let me in the operating room where they cracked the chest. They were doing open heart surgery. Is this when you flip the junior men into the chest? No. But that stuff has never bought like, I know.

knew I could have been a doctor if I wanted to. Yeah. I didn't want to go to school that long, but none of that stuff ever bothered me. Mike M.D. Yeah. How about that? That would have been neat. There'd be no podcast.

I wouldn't have time for the podcast. It would just be a different type of podcast. It would just be the Gibby podcast. All right. I think we've gone on long enough. You got anything else you want to talk about? I'm good, man. All right.

Well, that's it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own. Time ticking.