True Crime All The Time - Charles Starkweather and Caril Ann Fugate

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

Charles Starkweather was a teenager when he went on a killing spree in the late 1950s. He committed 11 murders in total, including 3 members of his 14-year-old girlfriend's family. He then took Caril Ann Fugate with him on the run from Nebraska to Wyoming, murdering as he went.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this infamous case from the 1950s. The murderous exploits of Charles Starkweather shocked the nation and it had many in the Midwest in a state of fear. After they were apprehended, both Starkweather and Fugate were charged with first-degree murder. Caril Ann remains the youngest female to ever be convicted of first-degree murder. But the overriding question, in this case, is whether Caril Ann was held captive by Starkweather or if she was more of a willing participant. The answer to that question depends on which version of events you believe.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 227 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Man, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing pretty good except for this trigger finger. Yeah.

That I was talking to you about. You and your trigger finger. It's a real thing, man. Look it up. Well, okay. I believe you. The interesting thing is it's not on my trigger finger. It's on my middle finger.

Yeah. I think there was too much road rage. Maybe I've been flipping too many people off. I don't know. And do something with that finger. That something. Gibbs, let's give our shoutouts. For Patreon, we had Gabriella DeHalia.

Hey, DeHalia. Heidi Agnar's daughter. We like some Agnar's daughter. You like you some Agnar's daughter. Okay. I'm not sure that came out exactly the way you meant it to, but probably not. We'll go with it. Jenna.

Hey, Jenna. Kate Sandifer. Hey, Kate. Mirian Evans. Hey, what's going on, Marion? Alyssa Van Otterloo. What's going on, Van Otterloo? Erica Salanoa.

Hey, Salano. Caitlin. Good old Caitlin. Louise Valmoria. Hey, Valamora. Sounds like a famous castle. It does because you didn't say it anyway, any way like I did. Yeah.

Candy Hunter jumped out at our highest level. What's going on, Candy? Lee Burroughs. Hey, Lee. Sarah L. Appreciate that, Sarah. Danish Sheik. Well, sheik is cool.

Mark Hookham. Hey, hook him if you can't catch him. If you can't catch him, how you're supposed to hook him? I don't know. Ty Hold'em. Hey, well, get hook him and hold them together. Huck him and hold them. You're good.

Tessa Vigas. What's going on, Tessa? Tiffany Wontkins. Thanks, Tiffany. Our good friend out of Georgia, Max Brill. Yeah, big old Max. And he has been with us forever. He has.

Nikki Aylward. What's going on, Nikki? Cheryl Carter jumped out at our highest level. Hey, thanks, Cheryl. Dana Tennon. What's going on, Dana? Gene Sherfield. I appreciate that, Gene.

And Shelley Skinner. Well, thank you, Shelley. So it's a lot of great new support. We really appreciate that. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Lindsay Muffet. Oh, Lindsay, appreciate it. Been with us a long time. We really appreciate that long-term support.

And then we had some great PayPal donations, Sharon Armstrong. Hey, thank Sharon. Corinne Armstrong. Hold on now. That's two Armstrong. Two Armstrongs. Is I remember Stretch Armstrong? I loved Stretch Armstrong.

When right. Until I cut, cut him open to see what was in the middle. Maybe that was their granddad that made that. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe I messed up and put Armstrong when I shouldn't have. Now I'm hoping not. Pamela Cooper.

Hey Pamela. And Aubrey Eldridge. Well, hey, Aubrey. Gibbs right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We have an episode out on the Palmer brothers. I think people are really going to want to check this out. To me, this was an extremely fascinating episode. Yeah.

You have two brothers in Alaska, Wasilla, Alaska, who disappear. but they disappear many years apart. Yeah, 11 years apart. And both of the disappearances have a lot of mystery and intrigue. So it's almost like two cases in one. Yeah, it's really good. But two tragedies that happened to the same family. Could not imagine that.

Gives, before we get into this episode, got to give a big shout out to Hannah Pearson for her help in the research and writing of this episode. All right, buddy, are you ready to get in? to this episode of true crime all the time already. We're talking about a pretty well-known case that dates back to the 1950s. Charles Starkweather was a teenage killer who murdered 11 people during a 60-day murder spree at the end of 1957 into 1958. And even that is a little misleading because his first murder was at the beginning of that period

and his spree was really at the end. joined by 14-year-old Carol Ann Fugay. Charles drove through Nebraska and Wyoming, shooting friends, family, and total strangers. Before the couple was finally apprehended, there are a lot of interesting aspects to this case, which we'll get into. But for me, you know,

one that kept popping up in my head was the timing of this case and how it relates to the television age. In 1957, 58, about 80% of households in the U.S. had at least one television set. Wow. That number is actually much higher than I thought it would have been. Sure. Back during that time frame, the broadcasts were in black and white. But imagine yourself back then tuning into a news broadcast about a teenager on the run in the heartland murdering people.

You would have been scared to death. Sure, scary times then. Now, I think today, you know, we see those things. We hear about them. Many of us don't even think twice. I think people keep making their dinner or cleaning their whatever. TV's playing. They're like, oh, another one of those.

Yeah, it's commonplace today. It's not a good thing, but it is commonplace. The coverage of bad things that people do. But take yourself back to Pleasantville and think about, okay, how would that story have made you feel back then? the randomness of most of his victims. I think it made most people very scared, right? Who is next? And could it be me? Sure. Yeah. Charles Raymond Starkweather was born on November 24th, 1938 in Lincoln, Nebraska to Guy and Helen Starkweather. He was the third of seven children, six boys and one girl. Big family. It's a big family. It's also a lot of boys to feed. You and I often talk about, boys in their grocery bills.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. My mom and dad had three boys, man. They had a big grocery bill. I know that. That was just the three of us. When you guys are big, big old Beauforts,

you know. Well, you know, I was a husky boy. You were a husky boy and you wore husky jeans. Yeah. All accounts say that the Starkweather family

was well respected in their community. Guy was a carpenter, but he was frequently out of work. I think for one reason he had rheumatoid arthritis in his hands. Pretty painful. Pretty painful. My wife has it. Also not real good to have it in your hands if you're a carpenter. Exactly. Because you're basically making your livelihood using your hand. That's your tradecraft, man. Helen often worked as a waitress to make ends meet.

But despite always having food on the table and a pretty comfortable place to live, Charles had a rough childhood. He was born with something called Genu Vera, which is. is a birth defect that caused his legs to be misshapen. A lot of outlets described him as being bowlegged. Yeah. So I don't know that it's always that because a lot of people are bowlegged. I don't know if it's always that. And the other thing is it, you know, it's supposed to, I think in most people clear up at a very young age, right? So this is something that you might be born with. By the age of two or three, it's, I think for most people, it clears up. I think for him, it just never did. Charles also had a speech impediment and was constantly teased by classmates.

He attended Saratoga Elementary School. And, you know, I don't think there's any doubt. Teachers thought that he was a slow learner. At the very least, one AP report from 1958 said that Starkweather School Intelligence rating was listed as dull normal. Dull normal. I've never even heard that. No. I'm not exactly sure what that means, but okay. I mean, you can be dull and normal.

You can be. I've known a lot of people that were very normal and also very dull. Very, very dull. But, you know, this is a classification, I guess, that they used back then. I will say that later at trial, psychologists for both the prosecution and the defense put his intelligence in the normal range. I just don't think Charles Starkweather was all that interested in school. And we've seen a lot of killers that have kind of fit that mold. I'm sure everybody knows a few people that or maybe even yourself listening. You just weren't into it. Some people just are not school type people.

Doesn't mean they're not smart. They just don't like it. I know I didn't like it. Some people choose not to go to college just because they don't want to go through another four years or five or however long it takes. I mean, it took me forever got out of high school. So it took you a long time to get out of second grade. Well, that was, yeah.

Those are your Billy Madison years. But I finally did it. You did it. Yeah. So why would I want to spend 20 years in college? Now, I get it. And then the flip side of that is some people are just really into academics. And they would go to school forever.

Oh, absolutely. If you'd let them or pay for it or if there was a mechanism to do that, they don't really want to get into the real world. They would much rather stay in college and kind of, do that. My appetite for learning came later in life. Okay. Yeah. Learning what, your trade craft and your spy craft and your, your dancing craft and all these different things that you've been into for the last whatever, 30 years. All that good stuff. But I think Gibbs, you'd have to say, right, from what we've discussed so far, seems like a fairly normal upbringing. So I'm sure 80% of the people listening probably had a very similar situation. Now, not all the some of the things that he had

going against him, but good family. Yeah. As far as I know he was not mistreated. I think he had a family who loved him. They put a roof over his head. They put food on the table. Now, this was not a well off family. I mean, they struggled financially. But he had access to good schools. Yeah. So I think the big question in this episode is is going to be what made. What made? this guy kill. And that's what we're going to try to figure out. As a teenager, Charles was fitted for glasses because he was near-sighted. Like I said, he struggled in school. He later said, you know, he just did not want to be there. And he got tired of it. He got tired of the grind. I get it, man. Yeah. I think a lot of people will be saying the same thing. Yeah. Now, I was different.

As far as elementary school, high school went, loved it. Com. Com. I love the partying aspect. I didn't love all the work, but I definitely love the party atmosphere. Oh, you were like I always say, Frank the tank. No doubt. But Charles also struggled socially. He was teased and bullied quite a bit. You know, maybe it was his glasses, his short stature. He was only about five, five. Tom Cruise, height. Yeah, about Tom Cruise. He had fiery red hair. Fiery. Fiery. It was described as fiery. That's red. Yeah, red. Flaming Red.

Or it could have been his speech impediment. Right. You and I have talked about this before. You just never know with kids. Oh, man. They're rough. It can be really rough on people with bullying. Yeah, but you never know what they're going to use.

What are they going to latch on to? What are they going to target to then use in their taunting or bullying? And maybe it's a combination of all of it, which I think is often the case. Yeah. the glasses or it's going to be the red hair or the speech. Maybe one day it's this and one day it's it's something else. Yeah. Charles practiced social distancing about 60 plus years before most of us had even heard of it. Basically what he did was he developed techniques to aid him in kind of distancing himself from other people. Yeah. Sometimes he would act like he didn't hear somebody,

even though he clearly did. You do that all the time. I do. it's a good tactic to use and then he would just walk away as though even though like you and I are sitting about two feet apart right now it'd be pretty hard for me not to know that you're talking to me right he would just look at them with a blank stare and then walk away and again you've done that i have done that yeah yeah so it's a tactic that i have used as well and it's a pretty good one i guess if your goal is to get people to leave you alone sometimes he would just accused chestnuts of being lazy. No, not really.

I added that. And hopefully some people get the movie reference. He didn't actually do that. I don't want people to think that's a fact. I started making me laugh, man. I was like, you know,

one thing I found interesting about Charles was he did have some artistic ability. One of his teachers said that he had the talent to become a real artist. If he would have put his mind to it, he just didn't have that type of, inclination. The AP reported that on Christmas and other occasions, he spent hours and hours helping the teachers make flower and decorations. You know, it just seems at odds. Yeah.

With what we're getting ready to talk about. So here's a kid that, yeah, he doesn't love school, but he's artistic and he's very much willing to help the teachers, you know, make all these decorations. He's antisocial, but he's willing to do this. You know, just it does kind of seem like some of these things contrast each other. I sure do. He also excelled in gym, which is not an easy thing to do. You know, you've got to climb up that rope, get all the way to the top. You got to play crap soccer for anybody that did that.

Yeah. I mean, I know that that is where you really excel. Oh, man. Love that pegboard. The books. Okay. Maybe that was not your forte. Yeah.

But dodge ball and back when you could actually still play. dodge ball, you were kind of king, king of the hill. And I always remember that guy saying, if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball. That's right. But I think for Charles Starkweather, the gym was really the only place where he felt he could get back at those who bullied him. I mentioned it. He was pretty short, five, five, but he was a stocky guy.

And he was obviously pretty athletic to excel in Jim. So he had these people. that were bullying him, taunting him. Okay. Well, now we're in the dodge ball game. And now I'm going to show you what's what. But he didn't leave it there. You know, it wasn't just, okay, I'm going to get back at the people who are bullying me.

He took it to another level and he started to kind of take out his frustrations on everyone. Yeah. I mean, he got to the point where, you know, when he was in high school at Lincoln High, he was known as one of the most troublesome teenagers. One of his friends told the Associated Press, he could be the kindest person you've ever seen. He'd do anything for you. If he liked you,

he was a hell of a lot of fun to be around too. Everything was just one big joke to him. But he had this other side. He could be mean as hell, cruel. If he saw some poor guy on the street who was bigger than he was better looking or better dressed, he'd try to take the poor bastard down to his size.

Just like that. Just like that. And we might get into some of the reasons why that is. Do you call that like a Napoleon complex? Maybe. Maybe. We'll get into some of that. I call it Tom Cruise.

We're now changing it from Napoleon to Tom Cruise. Yeah, we're going to poor Tom Cruise. Bring it forward a little bit. He's actually like 5758. Is he? Yeah. We should stop saying he's 5.5. What, hills?

Or heels, yeah. Yeah. The heels are alive with the sound of Griswold. Exactly. Charles became obsessed with the James Dean character in Rebel Without a Cause. Great movie, great character. He began to fix his hair and dress like James Dean. And he kind of also started displaying that rebellious type attitude.

Kind of looked like a James Dean back in your younger days. A little bit. Yeah. A little bit. I know you've had some similar obsessions as well. James Dean. Now that's not as big as your Paul Newman, Cool Hand Luke obsession, which is off the charts. Love that man. Cool hand Luke. The fact that you bring your own hard boiled eggs and, you know, sit around eating them, I could do without that. Well, you know what, but I try to get that record. In 1956, Charles was 18 years old. And he was,

working at a Western Union newspaper warehouse after he dropped out of a senior year of high school, he later said that he constantly felt as though people at this job were looking down on him. And again, I think you can see this is a common theme, right? From school age, people are taunting him. They're looking down on him. They're saying the bad things about him. Now he's 18. He's kind of in the working world.

But he still thinks. And maybe it's true that people are saying things about him. They're looking down on him. They're talking about him. They don't think he's good enough. And this is kind of the complex that I think caused him so many issues. Oh, sounds like a little paranoia.

Well, I think there's some of that. Some of it was real. I doubt that at all. But then do you take what happened to you that was real? and kind of projected onto almost everyone. Okay. Now is everybody talking about me?

Does everybody think that I'm worthless? And then in your inside, do you start to think that? I'm not good enough. You can definitely play with your mind. You've ever walked into a place and seen people start whispering, kind of looking up at you and they go back and they start whispering. You're like, are you talking about me? No, I never asked myself those questions.

Really? I don't care. I do that a lot. I really don't care. about me. Why I think it was such an issue for Charles Starkweather was because he didn't want to be like that. He had it in his mind that he should be someone very important. Right. He was destined to do great things. Well, so far, he hasn't. His life is not trending that way. And so, you know, to me, that's why things start to spiral out of control. But it was around this same time. But it was around the

same time that he was introduced to 13-year-old Carol and Fugate, and the two began seeing each other regularly. Kind of young. Kind of young, not something I would allow in my house. You know, when my daughters were 13, no way would I allow them to see an 18-year-old. Too much maturity difference. Yeah. If you think about the jump from 13 to 18, it is massive. Now, for From my age to your age, are you going to mature that much in 25 years? No, no, not really. But from 13 to 18, it's only five years, but it's a huge jump in maturity. It really is.

It really, really is. Did you not get to the thing that I said that you were 25 years older than me? I'm just letting it go. Okay. I was, you know, just checking. Hold him back. This podcast is sponsored by Better Health. If there's something interfering with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving

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This is professional counseling done securely online. Visit their website and read their testimonials that are posted daily. Visit betterhelp.com slash T-CAT. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P, and join the over 1 million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. They have a special offer for True Crime All the Time, listeners. get 10% off your first month at BetterHelp.com slash teacat T-C-A-T-T-T. Carolian Fugate was born on July 30th, 1943 to Wilma and Vilda Fugate and had an older sister named Barbara. William Fugate was an alcoholic and was convicted for being a peeping Tom.

Not something you really want to be said about your father. No, how's your dad? Is he still peeping Tom? No, just that one time. Just that one time. But he got busted. Yeah. Wilma and Velda got divorced in 1951 and Velda remarried a man named Marion Bartlett.

The two later had Carol's baby sister Betty Jean. In 1956, Charles' friend Bob von Bush began dating Barbara Fugay. And they invited Charles and Carol to the movies for a double date. Charles was immediately attracted to Carol. He liked the fact that they had a lot in common. They were both kind of rebellious. Neither one of them did very well in school. Apparently Gibbs, after their first date, Carol went out with another guy.

And Charles was so infuriated. He tracked this guy down and threatened to kill him if he went out with Carol again. That's one way to win over a date. You mean your 13 year old wannabe girlfriend? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

I muscled that guy out of your life. now you belong to me. Well, and it's kind of fitting that you say it that way. Because depending on who you believe, I do think that, you know, that's the way that at least one inside in this story

is going to feel as though Charles believed that she belonged to him. But the problem was her parents didn't approve. And no shocker there, right? I don't think a lot would. Right. She was only 13 when they met.

Charles was 18. and they also blamed Charles for Carol's rebellious behavior. Right. So she's starting to act out and they're saying, well, it's because you're hanging out with this kid. Yeah. This older guy.

James Dean. Charles taught Carol how to drive. And at one point, she crashed his dad's, uh, 1949 Ford. That's not going to go over well. Now his dad guy ended up paying for the damages.

It was his car, I think. But he was mad and he, proceeded to kick Charles out of the house, Charles eventually got a new job as a garbage man. And apparently Gibbs on his route, he was known for telling people to go to hell. I need your trash. Go to hell too. And also go to hell.

Yeah. So I guess so much for the pleasant neighborly conversation. I can't even imagine what I would think if they rolled by and grabbed my garbage. And he said, oh, by the way, go to hell. Yeah, exactly. Go F yourself. Hey, hold on. I got one more, one more bag.

Go to hell. And then they took off. Yeah. But to me, Gibbs, I think this all comes down to one thing. And I kind of already mentioned it. But his life wasn't working out the way that he wanted. He felt powerless. He had been bullied and teased in school.

That's a powerless feeling, right? You don't have any control over what these other kids are doing to you. Charles was working jobs that he didn't like that he felt were beneath him. he wanted to be important. Who doesn't? I don't think everybody does. No. No, I actually think there are quite a few people who are very happy staying under the radar,

staying out of the spotlight, and they love the way that their life is right now. And they wouldn't want to put any undue pressure or, you know, what I'm saying. Right. That would come with being important. Do you want to be important? Do I? Yeah. Are you saying I'm not important? Well, are we important because we put out a podcast? I'm, I mean, to me, I'm important in my own world. Well, sure. In your bubble. Yeah. But yeah, everybody should be important in their own bubble.

There you go. I don't think that's the problem Charles had. He wanted to be important to other people. Right. He wanted to come off that way. Yeah. He once told a reporter, who gives a dam for a garbage hauler? Because I think that just shows you what he felt about the job. He felt it was beneath him. There's garbage haulers up in New York City, man, make like 100 grand plus a year. I'm going to say, man. I know a couple of people that do real well. Yeah. They make a very good living.

So he wanted to be important. He wanted to be powerful, but he didn't know how to do it. And like I said, he felt as though everyone around him was looking down on him. Charles also had a fascination with guns. He later told Dr. James Melvin Reinhart that he was mesmerized by the shows that he saw on television. When he finally got his hands on a gun, he watched himself handle it in the mirror, play with it, draw it, act like he was, you know, firing it. So to me, I'm picturing kind of a taxi driver moment here. Yeah, yeah.

You know, De Niro is standing in front of the mirror. He's got the gun. he says what you're talking to me yeah you talking to me you're talking to me are you talking to me yeah that's the way i kind of envision charles starkweather playing the role of the tough guy in the mirror yeah because he has a gun so i think things were building right behind the scenes inside of him and it continued to grow towards the end of 1957. And it finally came to a head when he visited the Crest Service station. There's a gas station located on Cornhusker Highway.

So he went there to buy some kind of stuffed animal, I think, for Carol. But the gas station attendant wouldn't accept his credit. Now, I don't really know what that meant in 1957. in December of 1957. Did they have credit cards in 1957? I don't know.

If they did, it was the old slide across. Yeah, write the number down or something. It definitely would have, I don't even know if they would have had that. So I was a little confused

as to whether this was actually a credit card situation or real credit, meaning, hey, let me have this. I'll come back and pay you later. I'm good for it. I'm good for it.

Trust me. Yeah, I don't know which way this was. The attendance name was Robert Colvert. He had been recently discharged from the Navy and his new wife, Charlotte, was expecting their first child. Charles left the gas station furious. And then very early the next morning, December 1st, he visited the gas station multiple times and he bought items from Colvert. It's like he just kept going in. He would buy some gum or he'd buy, you know, something small. Right.

I don't know if he was working up the nerve to do what he was planning on doing. I don't know if he was scoping it out. I'm not sure. But on the third time that he entered the store, he had with him a shotgun and like a duffel bag. I also think he had a mask and a hat because you've got to cover up that fire red hair, man. You do. There's nothing worse than a robbery description that starts with, man, this guy had fire red as opposed to blonde, brown, black. Okay, a lot more people.

Exactly. They're going to fit that description. You're going to be caught really quick with that fiery red hair. Fiery. He robbed Colvert at gunpoint. He got about $100 from the register. He wanted Colvert to open the safe. But the guy was so new to the job, he said, you know what?

I don't have the combination. So Stark Weather took him up the road, got him out of the car. and shot him to death. And it's been reported that he told Carol about the murder, but she said she didn't believe him. Now, whether that's true or not, see,

some of this stuff, there's two sides right to the story. There's the Charles Starkweather side. Sure. And there's the Carol Ann Fugate side. And they're going to differ greatly. Oh, yeah.

And it's a huge part of this case. Charles's name was brought up during the investigation of Colvert's murder. Actually, I think his description was given by a number of, of people, but he was never questioned. On January 19, 1958, Charles visited Carol's house on Belmont Avenue. And it was during this visit that Carol says she tried to break it off with Charles. But he wasn't really having it. You know, you ever had that situation Gibbs where you try to break it off with somebody and they're just like, no. No. Oh, yeah. See, for me, it's usually been the other way around.

Yeah. I'm not to break her up. I'm the, we'll leave. Breaker E. Breaker Upper E. The break. The breakery. I'm the one pleading.

Don't leave me. Don't leave me. Don't leave me. So I've never actually had that happen, but I know there are some people that just will not take that that type of answer, that type of statement. They'll just keep on. And I think Charles was one of those individuals. Charles had plans to go hunting with Carol's stepfather a few days later.

So he thought he would see Carol that. And it was on January 21st when he came back to her house. And this is where the stories between the two individuals definitely verge. You know, Carol would say she wasn't home, but her mother and stepfather, Veldon, Marian Bartlett, worked. Charles and the two of them got in a heated argument. You know, there are sources, including Charles, that say Carol did return home. during the fight. Some say she didn't return home until later. But regardless of how everything

kind of went down and who was there, Charles pulled out a 22 bold action rifle and fatally shot both of them. But Gibbs, he didn't stop there. He proceeded to strangle and stabbed two-year-old Betty Jean to death. It's a whole other level. Oh, it's brutal. And like, and like I said, in Charles's account, Carol was present during the murders. And at some points, he has even said she encouraged him to murder her family. That's the other thing about Charles. He's got a lot of different stories. He changes up quite a bit after he's caught.

Carol said she wasn't there at all during the murder of her family. In her account, she returned home. Her family wasn't there. she was threatened by Charles to comply. Initially, according to Carol, Charles told her that her family had been taken hostage and they would be killed if she didn't cooperate, meaning she didn't go with him.

Well, he was obsessed with her. I think that's pretty safe to say. But here's where it gets even more strange because Carol wrote a note saying that everyone was sick from the flu and she posted it on the door, essentially to keep everyone away. But does she do that because he asked her to do that? I don't know because the two of them stayed in the house for the next six days together.

Now, you could make the argument that she was held captive, and I think that's the argument she did make, would make. But Charles later described it as the best week of his life. He and Carol in her family's house after he'd killed her entire family. Because I think one of the things that people point to, is okay six days in this house are you telling me there wasn't one time where you could have made an escape right that comes up a lot it's one of the big questions now carol has said that charles tied her up when he left and when he was there he had a gun so that's kind of been her

stance on on it all along sure just didn't have a good opportunity but again charles has denied this He said they played cards, they watched TV, they took care of the family pets. They were playing house, Gibbs, for almost a week. And this is one of the big aspects in this case, right? I mentioned it. Charles and Carol's accounts don't line up, especially on the issue of whether Carol was a willing participant or she went along with Charles because she feared for her life. Pretty much this whole case comes down to that one question.

Did she participate or not? Yeah. So over this six day period, multiple people visited the home. They were turned away, either by the note or by Carol saying, hey, everybody's sick. You can't come in. It was really when Carol's grandmother threatened to call police that Charles and Carol fled to Bennett, Nebraska.

family members later made the decision to check on the house themselves and they found the bodies in the backyard. Carol's mother, her stepfather, and her two-year-old baby sister. And the reason why they went to Bennett was there was a family friend of the Starkweathers who lived there. He was a 70-year-old man named August Meyer. And I think Charles Starkweather had spent quite a bit of time with August Meyer. He knew him very well. But after Charles and Carol arrived at his farmhouse, Charles shot him in the head with a shotgun. That's how well he knew him.

I think he actually liked this guy. Yeah. From everything I've read, like he would go and visit and almost like vacation at this guy's house. Charles and Carol fled to residence, but they got their car stuck in some mud and they just couldn't get it out. And it just so happened that two teenagers, Robert Jen said, and Carol King stopped to give them a ride as they were walking down the road. Charles asked them to drive back to the farmhouse. And it was there that he shot them both and stole their car.

The next day, the bodies of Robert and Carol were found in the cellar. Robert was found face down to bottom of the stairs in a pool of his own blood. He had one gunshot wound in his back and six in his left ear. Overkill. It's pretty brutal. Yeah. Carol was partially naked and was lying on top of him with one gunshot wound in her back. And there are some reports Gibbs that Charles Starkweather raped Carol King.

I only saw it in one place. So I don't know how accurate it is. But I think the fact that she was found partially nude, you have to ask the question, why is that? Now, it was at this point, according to. to Charles that he wanted to turn himself into police. But he said Carol talked him out of it. She wasn't ready yet, huh? According to him.

According to him. And again, you have to look at everything through two different lenses. There's the Charles Starkweather lens. And then there's the Carroll lens. They're completely different. Different side of the spectrum. Charles and Carol then drove to a wealthy part of Lincoln, Nebraska. and they entered the home of C. Lauer and Clara Ward.

C. Lauer Ward was like this big kind of president of companies type guy. And he had already left for work before Carol and Charles got there. They held 46-year-old Clara and the household made 51-year-old Lillian Fensel hostage for pretty much the entire day. Now, again, there are different. accounts of what happened in the house that day. But before 6 p.m., Charles murdered Clara and Lillian. How it went down, you almost have to decide for yourself because there's only two people that know. And when those two people are telling different stories, it's up to you to believe which one you think's right. Sometimes there's a little bit of truth in both. That can be. Because I think

Charles has said that Claire tried to shoot him with her son's gun, so he threw a knife at her. But he's blamed Carol as being the one who actually stabbed her to death. He has also said that it was Carol's idea to stab Lillian Fensel. And then when C. Lauer arrived home, Charles shot him in the entryway of the house. The two took off in Lauer's black, 1956 Packard. A Packard. Yeah. You okay with that?

Dayton, Ohio has the Packard Museum. I did not know that. Yeah, downtown. Not something I don't think I would ever go to. I have not been there either. Okay. But good to know. I just know they have it.

And you can rent it out for wedding receptions and such, which I have no desire for that either. I don't know why you would want to do that either. Yeah. So they took off in this Packard, but not before they loaded it with a bunch of stolen items from the house. because, you know, you got to take your booty with you. Exactly. Sounds like they came across some good booty, too. Expensive stuff.

Yeah, I think these were people that were very well off. I'm sure they had some expensive jewelry and other things. All three of the bodies were found the next day. And kind of while all this was going on, right? Well, they were hanging out at the wards. Police found the bodies at August Myers Farmhouse. So you had a ton of officers combing the area. looking for who could have committed these three murders.

Got a lot of killing going on. Yeah. In a very short period of time. I mean, this was the kind of thing. It was almost unheard of right. Back during this time, they were killers,

of course. There always have been. But, you know, this series of murders, it definitely sent a shockwave through Lancaster County, Nebraska.

Law enforcement went door to door. Looking for the killers. The National Guard was called in. authorities were on the lookout for the black Packard. Eventually, Charles Starkweather and Carol Ann Fugate were identified. And a picture of them was published on the front cover of the newspapers. And Lincoln's mayor posted a $1,000 reward for their capture. And I think to give you an idea of just how much panic there was,

one gun shop in the area reported that it sold over 40 firearms in just a few hours. because people were flooding in. They were scared. They wanted extra protection. Charles and Carol drove to Wyoming. And I think it was because they heard on the radio that law enforcement was looking for the wards Packard. And they began looking for a new vehicle in Wyoming and came across 37-year-old traveling shoe salesman, Merle Collison, sleeping in his Buick on the side of the highway outside of Douglas, Wyoming.

It's 1958, Gibbs. You can do that. I think you had to do that. Yeah, that's true too. I don't know if we had any rest areas in 1958. If we did, definitely not as prolific as they are today. I slept in a rest area once before. I'm sure you have.

So he wants this car, Charles does, and he shot it mirl through the window twice with a pump action 22 rifle. You ever see a pump action 22? I have one. You do have one. Wow, you're a man of mystery. I know. And a hell of a good dancer.

For the right money, I get up and dance. So Murrell agreed to give up his car. He's like, hey, buddy, you're holding a rifle? Yeah, take my car. He opened up the driver's side door. But Charles shot him anyway. Shot him seven times in the leg, the wrist, the arm, the neck, the face. I mean, okay.

So maybe he's not a great shot. But also, I think this kind of dives into his. mindset. Yeah, he wants the car. He's not going to let this guy live. He wants to kill. I didn't mention it. When I talked about the very first murder, I was going to wait, but I think I'll talk about it now. You know, later, Charles will say that that one was all about the money. He needed money so that he could get away with Carol. Yeah. Keep going. But the later murders, it's almost as though that first one, it really lit a fuse. Yeah, it did.

And I think he liked it. I think he became a natural born killer. Exactly. But here's the thing about Merle's car. You know, they tried to steal it with Merle inside it. He's dead. But it stalled. Because apparently his car had a parking break.

Something that Charles was not familiar with in 1958. I guess not every car had a parking break. So he's like, I don't know why this won't go. And he didn't know how to disengage it, apparently. So a 29-year-old salesman for Sinclair gas and oil named Joe Sprinkle, stopped to help because that's how people were back then, right? A name too. Super nice.

Joe Sprinkle. Joe Sprinkle. Yeah. And Sinclair, gas, and oil has like the best logo ever. You know what it is? What is it? It's like that green dinosaur. Oh, really?

Yeah. I think. I'm pretty sure that's Sinclair. And I think they're worth a lot of money. Like if you can find some that were like on a pump or signage that's like real vintage. Right. Some of that stuff is worth a boatload. But so Sprinkles's trying to help, but Charles threatened him.

And the two began to fight over this gun. Sprinkle was able to wrestle the gun away from Charles during the struggle. And as they were having this struggle for the gun, a deputy sheriff. named William Romer happened along on the scene. So this is kind of a strange convergence of events. Charles Starkweather has just killed a man. Right. He's trying to steal his car with the man still inside it. He doesn't know what a parking brake is, can't disengage it. A good Samaritan stops by and says, hey, man, you need some help. No, here's my 22 in your face. Right. That guy wasted no time. He doesn't. He doesn't. He

took the gun away from him. Yeah. Did the Jason Bourne move? Yeah. Did the Jason Bourne move? Now you have the deputy on scene. And it was at this point that Carol made the decision. She ran to the officer and she told him that Charles had abducted her. He was trying to kill her. So Charles was on his own. He got back into the Packard and took off. And in newspaper reports Gibbs, it says that he was going like 100 miles an hour. It was Packard's man. Zoom, zoom.

And the, the deputies that were chasing him, they got up to speeds of like 110. Wow. To get up alongside him. Sure. And they started firing. You know,

trying to blow out his tires. They shot through, you know, some of the glass. And it was a little fuzzy. There are some reports that said it was the glass breaking at such a high velocity that some of it went into his ear, went into to Charles's hand.

Some of the reports made it sound like he got shot, but I didn't, I took it more as glass, but it did cause injury, right? So he's bleeding. So he stopped and he surrendered. They took him into custody as well as Carolyn Fugate. I did find it interesting Gibbs while I was looking through some old Wyoming newspaper articles, there was a bunch lauding this Joe Sprinkle as a hero. Well, he really was. Yeah, I agree with you. I'm not sure what would have happened if he had not got the gun away from Charles. Now, there was a deputy sheriff on the scene as well, but could Charles have killed Sprinkle and the deputy? There's no doubt in my mind. He could have and would have. So I think you got, I think you have to kind of celebrate this guy and say, hey, good on you, man.

Yeah. Now, Sheriff early Heflin was one of the guys that was chasing Charles and shooting into the car. He told the Holdridge Daily Citizen, I should have aimed a little to the left. A quarter inch would have done it. Another quarter of an inch and I'd have blown his head off. So I think it tells you what the sheriff thought about this guy. You know, my thought on that is, is aim small, miss small. Is that what your thought is?

Or you took that from a movie. Or I could have done that. Or the movie took it from you. More so. We don't know. Yeah. I just thought it was interesting that, you know, the sheriff is doing this interview.

And it wasn't like, yeah, we stopped him. We got him. He's like, no, I missed him. I could have blown his head off. Just a little bit more to the left. I could have. Yeah. Don't do bad stuff in why.

because they're out to kill or they were in the in the 50s. But the big thing is they got him, right? They got Charles Starkweather. They also have Carol Ann Fugate. Charles gave the authorities a number of different versions of events. And I, and I've kind of already said some of this, but you know,

especially as it related to his and Carol's involvement in the murders. But eventually he confessed orally and in a written statement to 11 murders. 10 in Nebraska and one in Wyoming. He also made a statement indicating that Carol Fugate was his captive and not a willing participant. And that's huge because, you know, if he would have stuck to his, she was a part of it, that's a whole different ballgame. But even with that, both Charles and Carol were charged with first degree murder.

No doubt, authorities looked at Charles as a stone cold killer. But the fact that they charged Carol with first degree murder obviously tells you they looked at her as being a part of at least some of these murders. And I think it was first degree murder, but a lot of the words I saw were aiding and abetting. But still charged with first degree murder. Well, 11 people did lose their lives. Yeah, they did. And look back at the timing of it. right colvert the first victim was killed in december of 57 but really from what january 21st over about a six seven day period 10 people that's that's a massive spree sure is that's a lot of carnage and a fairly short amount of time and again Gibbs i think if not for sprinkle coming along when he does

the deputy sheriff coming along when he does, how many more people would this guy have killed? He wasn't going to stop. Why would he? Well, exactly. That's what he wanted to do. Yeah, and I actually think that's a good choice of words. I think he wanted to kill,

you know, go back to the taxi driver and the, you know, the feeling of having no power. Well, now, man, I've got all the power in the world. As long as I've got this gun or these guns with me, me, I'm the most powerful force that you're going to encounter. Now, I'm putting thoughts in his

head. I don't know if he's ever said that, but that's the way that I kind of take it. And he said some things, I think, that are along those lines. There are some people. And it's, it's not always murder, but once they get that sense of power, man, it goes to their head. They run with it. And the last thing in the world they want to do is give it up. So for him, he's feeling this power through killing people, ending their lives. He's in control of what happens to all these individuals. No way is he going to stop, in my opinion. Now, they're going to continue on the run and he's going to kill whenever he has the opportunity

or whenever he needs to. I believe that's what would have happened. He's definitely not going to let anybody or anything come between him and her either. That's true. now initially Wyoming authority said that they would try Charles first for the murder of Merle Collison but Wyoming's governor came out and said that he was against the death penalty so no matter what they did if they got the death penalty he would not allow it to stand so because of that prosecutors made the decision to defer to Nebraska so on January 31st 1958

Stark Weather and Fugate were extradited back to Nebraska. But Charles claimed that he was afraid of flying. So they loaded them in separate cars and made the 370 mile trip to Lincoln, Nebraska. Kind of reminds me of one of my favorite movies called Midnight Run. Oh, yeah. Have you ever seen it? Yeah. With De Niro.

De Niro plays a bounty hunter. He's going after Charles Groden. He gets him. But Groden says that he has a fear of flying. and when De Niro doesn't listen to him, he throws a fit. Groton does on the plane and they get kicked off. I think for Charles, and this is probably me speculating a little bit, but was he really afraid of flying or did he think, okay, got a better chance of escaping if we're going

by car, I think I would say I'm afraid of flying too, just on the off chance that I get a chance to escape at a pit stop or a rest area or something like that. Odds are greater. Yeah, kind of hard to get out of an airplane. Yeah, unless you're D.B. Cooper. Charles and Carol both pleaded not guilty to the first degree murder charges and were tried separately. Gives one of the things I found interesting is that prosecutors chose to only try Charles Starkweather for one murder. And that was the murder of Robert Jensen. His trial began on May 5th, 1958. Charles had admitted to the murder, but at that point, he saw, started to say it was self-defense. Not really a good defense, though. Now, it turned out not to be because the prosecution submitted evidence that showed Robert was shot six times in the back of the head. I think as a juror, you're going to have a hard time calling that self-defense.

Very few people are shot six times in the back of the head while you're defending yourself. Just doesn't happen very often. It doesn't really add up. You know, it was reported heavily that throughout the trial, Charles, seemed very relaxed as though he didn't have a care in the world about what was going on in this courtroom. He chewed gum. He smacked it. The only time he really got riled up was when his defense team called his previous boss at the warehouse. And this guy got on the stand and said that Charles Starkweather was the dumbest person who had ever worked for him. I got him riled up, didn't it? It did.

And this is a guy testifying on his own side because apparently this guy, you know, he was a witness for the defense to try to show the jury that Charles was mentally incompetent. And there was some thought, I think, by his defense team that, hey, you've got to go insanity here. It's your best option. But he shut it all down. He said that he would rather fry than say that he was insanity. dang he just didn't want to do it yeah so not only did it not work but he had to sit there and listen to this guy call him the dumbest SOB whoever worked for him it's pretty rough I think it's especially rough for a guy who had experienced a lot of that in his life well sure that's one thing

he didn't want to hear yeah right and that's why he got so riled up I'm sure because that was his trigger right the everybody's looking down on me everybody thinks I'm dumb. Everybody thinks I'm not good enough. Now, this guy's telling the whole world. And I'm sure he just wanted to say, hey, I'm not stupid, man. I'm not dumb. I'm a pretty smart guy. He was. He had a fairly decent IQ. And that was born out. You know, I think I already mentioned. It was born out by some of the testing and the testimony in the trial. The defense team called three psychiatrists to testify. One said that Charles Starkweather. suffered from a severe mental disease or illness of such a kind as to influence his acts.

People don't mean anything to him. They are no more than a stick or a piece of wood to this boy. Wow. Pretty profound statement. Yeah. I mean, I think it's pretty accurate as far as what Charles Starkweather thought of people, the way that he viewed people and the importance of. of or the value of their lives, I don't think he looked at them any differently than you would

look at a rock or a stick or anything like that. I think that part is true. Now, whether he had a mental disease, I think the prosecution tried to put it to the jury that, you know, that the defense was grasping at straws with these defense psychiatrists and any notion. of insanity. I think their stance was Charles Starkweather knew exactly what he was doing. He wasn't insane. He just didn't give a shit about anybody. I'm sure they didn't use those words, but I think that's what their point was. On May 23rd, the jury concluded their deliberation with a guilty verdict and a recommendation of death. And the judge agreed. And that's what Charles Starkweather got, a death sentence. Carol went on trial in October of 1958. It's almost hard for me to remember Gibbs.

She was 14 years old. Yeah, just a little girl, man. When all of this happened. And I think there were a a lot of people back at that time that thought she would go free, especially with the statements from Charles that she was essentially his captive. He had said that. Her defense attorney said in his opening statement, everything this little girl did was because she had a gun stuck in. He had a gun. in her face. She did just like any other 14 year old child would do. And her defense attorney really did a good job of constantly calling her a little girl, a child, really hammering it home to the jury that this is not an adult. This is a child.

This is a little girl. But really going out of his way, right, as a tactic. Carol took the stand and said that she never suspected Charles. would murder her family and she was forced to go with him in her mind to save the lives of her family. Yeah, because that's what he told her. Right. According to her, they were being held hostage and they would be killed if she didn't go along with him. She said she came home from school to find Charles in her house pointing a gun at her.

But Charles took the stand too and said that Carol watched him kill her family and hide their bodies in the backyard and she still voluntarily stayed with him. I think at some point, Gibbs, he even said that she wanted him to kill her family. He described Carol to the jury as his willing and aggressive helpmate in the slings. That's what he called her. Wyoming deputy sheriff William Romer, the person that Carol ran to after the altercation, testified that she said to him that she witnessed Charles kill her family. So this was like major testimony because it was directly in conflict

with her story. Her story was, I came home, my family was gone. But now you have a deputy sheriff saying in the car, she said that she saw this man kill 10 people.

Yeah. Now that would have included her family. That's a conflict. I saw somewhere where one of the other officers testified that when they were at the station, they found inside her pockets clippings about the murder of her family. Now, I only found that in one place. So I don't know how accurate it is. Normally, I like to see it in three different places before I use it.

So I'm throwing it out there, but I'm not sure of the veracity of that statement. But again, if he did testify to that, that would be pretty damning too. Because why would you carry around clippings about the murder of your family when you're saying you didn't even know what had happened to them until we told you at the station. That wouldn't make any sense, right? It just makes it look more like you're a willing participant. Yeah, if that part is accurate, definitely. But if she wasn't, I can also see why Charles would say she was because he's so in love

with her doesn't want any bailes to have her what's the one thing you can do to make sure no one ever gets her yeah i see what you're getting at because you know in this trial i think he was even asked do you care what happens to her and he said no i don't care i don't care if she lives or dies well is that because he really doesn't care about her anymore or is it because he knows he can't have her and he doesn't want anybody else to have her either like you're saying the jury of seven men and five women deliberated for about nine and a half hours before returning a guilty verdict against Carol. She received life in prison on November 21st, 1958 for the murder of Robert Jensen. And again, Gibbs, this is where I think the aiding and abetting comes in. Yeah. We know that she didn't pull the

trigger. We know that she didn't murder Robert Jensen. I don't think anybody ever claimed that. that was never even in question. But the prosecution used the aiding and abetting to kind of parlay that into first-degree murder. While she was in prison, a documentary was made about her called Growing Up in Prison. It's out on YouTube. You can take a look at it. But in there, there was an interview that Carol did. Now, I want to play just a little bit of that interview so you get to hear from her.

It's something that will always be with me. It's something that I'll always carry with me. And I've learned to accept it, and it lives in the back of my mind. It's behind a little door. And right now, the past is over with. There's nothing I can do. I can't change it. And I have to make now, today, tomorrow, and my future.

There's no way to go back. and if there was any way humanly possible that I could go back and I could change what happened. If I could in any way bring back those people, giving back their life that he took, if there was anything I could do. I would. Let's tell. There's just nothing I can do. It's over with. So from that, I think you get a sense of Carol's remorse, but again, I'm always dubious of people

when they give interviews in prison. Are they remorseful for their situation? The fact that they're in prison. And obviously they would do anything to change that. Or are they really remorseful for what happened, the fact that people lost, their lives or is it a combination of of the two. Carol was paroled in June of 1976. she served about 17 years of her sentence and we've talked about this before, right? The U.S. Supreme Court made a ruling which said, you know, no automatic life sentences for

minors. After she was released, she moved to Lansing, Michigan and changed her name. She married and had three sons. But really, other than that documentary, she has not talked hardly at all about the murders. And I don't blame her. I don't blame her for changing her name. You know, her name is known by a lot of people, especially those people that are into true crime or anybody that lived in that area. It was such a big case. Oh, yeah, huge. 14 years old when she went with Charles on his murder spree, she was only 15 years old. when she was sentenced. So, you know, she got out when she was, what, like 30? She was still only 32 years old. I say only. Well, but she spent 17 years of your life in prison. To this day, she's still the youngest

female in U.S. history to have ever been tried and convicted for first degree murder. You think about all the people that have committed murder. And she holds that distinction. Carol's still alive. And just last year made another request to the parole board for a full pardon. This has kind of been her thing. She's trying to clear her name because, you know, I think from her point of view, she didn't do anything wrong. But I couldn't see where anything has really happened on this request. And obviously the last 12 months has not been a normal 12 months, especially as it relates

to the judicial system. So it could be a delay there. But it is interesting. I think she's now probably. 78 years old. You think about it, this case happened 60 plus years ago. Yeah, it's older than me. Yes, it is. Finally. Finally, something is older than you. Charles Starkweather set on death row for less than a year. In that time, he wrote a lot about his feelings on the murders. He wrote better to be left to rot on some high hill and be remembered than to be buried alive in some stinking place.

I mentioned Dr. James Melvin Reinhart. He logged over 80 hours of interviews with Charles Starkweather. And he wrote some great things. A lot of the research comes from some of his stuff and papers and things like that. From those interviews, he published the murderous trail of Charles Starkweather. Starkweather was executed by the electric chair on June 25th, 1959 at 12.01 a.m. at the Nebraska State Penitentiary in Lincoln, Nebraska. He had no last words.

And I read Gibbs that he could have had steak for his last meal, but he opted for cold cuts instead. Better for the digestive system, you know? You think? You know, at that time. Yeah. I don't care at all. If I'm going out, man,

give me a big old steak. Give me two steaks. I might eat three steak. Just half the cow. Give me half the cow. I don't get when this is going to be your last meal and you say, eh, I don't care. Just give me whatever the other inmates are having when you have the option. Or who was it?

We did somebody who had oatmeal and milk. No, no, no, I can't abide. If they could only be like my mom when I ate, you know, then I'd get like a big glass of milk. And they'd be like, you can't get up until you drink your milk. And I'd be like, well, I'm going to be here for a long time. So no execution going on tomorrow. So I find it interesting that they do the execution at 12.01 a.m. Yeah, we had another one recently that I think was also an older case.

The execution was done at that same time, 12.01 a.m. or started it at that time. Maybe they just want to get the show on the road before somebody calls and cancels it. They're like, hey, it's 1201. Let's do this before the governor calls. But think about this time. line. I mean, we've talked about some people that have been executed pretty quickly. This guy committed the majority of his murders in 1958. By June of 1959, he's executed.

You really can't get much faster than that, except, you know, unless you go back to the old days where right after the trial, they would take you out and hang you or shoot you or whatever it was. the story of Charles Starkweather and Carol Ann Fugate has been portrayed in a number of movies, probably most notably the 1974 film Badlands. It was also the basis of natural born killers in 1994, starring Woody Harrelson, Juliette Lewis, and Robert Downey Jr. And I think you can see why, you know, Mickey and Mallory Knox are a version of, Starkweather and Fugate, if you believe the story of Charles Starkweather.

Yeah. You have to believe that to think there's any similarity because in that movie, they were working in concert. They were a duo. Bonnie and Clyde. Yeah, more of like a Bonnie and Clyde. And some of the movies that have been done about this story do kind of show it in more of a Bonnie and Clyde type situation.

Yeah. But if you believe Carol Fugate, then those movies are way off base because she was not a willing participant. She didn't hurt anyone and she only went along to try to save her family. Bruce Springsteen's song, Nebraska was based on the events of this case. And, you know, in it, he sings, I saw her standing on the front lawn just twirling her baton. me and her went for a ride sir and ten innocent people died from the town of lincoln nebraska with a sawed-off four-ten on my lap through to the bad lands of wyoming i killed everything in my path i can't say that i'm sorry for the things that we done at least for a little while sir me and her

we had us some fun the jury brought in a guilty verdict and the judge he sentenced me to death midnight in a prison store room with leather straps across my chest. I thought about singing it gives, but I don't want to be sued for copyright infringement. I think you should have done it. I was going to play the actual song. Yeah. I'm always a little leery about that.

I don't want Bruce coming after us. You sound more like a John Legend than a Bruce anyway. Oh, I can do Bruce? Can you? Hey, little girl is your daddy home? Did he go and leave you all alone? I can take you higher. Mm-hmm.

I'm on fire. Now, I like that song, but it seems very dark. Now that I think back on the lyrics, right. It seems like there's something going on there that's inappropriate. I think there's a lot of lyrics you can do that way.

Yeah, I don't know. I have to go back and research the origin of those lyrics. But as we wrap up this case, Gibbs, I think, again, There's the version of what happened from Charles Starkweather. There's the version of what happened from Carol and Fugate, which do you believe more? Or is what really happened a little bit of both sides, both versions? Yeah, it could be.

I don't know the answer. And I think it's that question that really fuels a lot of the fascination with this case. To me, it's got kind of an unsolved aspect to it. We know it's solved. Right. But that to me is kind of a mystery that you as the audience or even you and I can look at all the facts and wade through the story. And then at the end of it, say, hmm, well, I think it was this. Maybe his plan was if I kill the family, she has nobody to go to, she's going to have to be with me.

And she'll do whatever I say because where else she's going to go? I'm her new family now. And she's not going to like it, but maybe eventually she'll come to terms with it. Yeah. And we'll live happily ever after. That's right. Wow. I mean, I'm not putting it past him, but I think you really have to be under some kind of delusion to think that somebody would eventually come around to the fact that you murdered her family.

Yeah. And okay, now we can be in love. But who knows? that's it Gibbs for the case of Charles Starkweather and kill and fugate we've got some voicemails you want to check those out yes here hey mike and gibby what up it's your boy cody from the 716 otherwise known as buffalo new york i love the show you guys help me get through work it's awesome hey i was wondering if you could do a case from around here it's relatively famous not not a heavy hitter famous but it isn't well known around this area it's a man by the name out altimo san die

otherwise known as the bike path rapist or bite path killer. He was active for almost 30 years attacking and killing women off a bike path and located near the University of Buffalo. And it went on for almost 30 years and I believe it was finally solved when they were able to obtain a glass that had his DNA on it and they finally caught them in. But it's a very big story around here and I would love to hear your guys. take on it. So please, please do that case. I would love to hear it. Thank you for everything you do and keep your own time ticking. Yeah, it's a pretty big case. I actually started it,

maybe last year, maybe even before. So I have the beginning of the research done. I don't know why I kind of put it to the side and went to something different, but definitely have to dust it off and and go back to it because we've gotten quite a few requests. Yeah, we've heard that one before. Every time I think of Buffalo, man, I think of that movie Buffalo 66. Never seen it. It's so good. It's good, man.

Speaking of that, I don't know if we did it on TCAT or Unsolved, but your reference to the Sean Penn movie. Yeah. About his big hair. About his big hair. Yeah. I got at least four emails with four different Sean Penn movies that they thought it could be.

Yeah. And none of them were fast times at Ridgemont High. And none of them were movies that I had ever even heard of. Yeah. Yeah. So one of them is probably correct. But yeah. Huge air, man.

Huge. I know you just keep saying that. Huge. Hi, I'm Eddie, former extradition agent. I just saw your podcast about a week ago and I am addicted. I've dealt with quite a few well-known people, including Ted Gizzyzzy, the Unabomber. I was in charge of securing the perimeter. when I was chape was taken from Mexico to the United States to be housed at ADX Florence.

I just want to let you know that I've passed your podcast along with all my friends from the days of extradition and they've all been binge listening to it. Thank you. Have good day. Bye. Well, that's awesome. We don't talk about it a lot, but that kind of word of mouth is priceless. It means everything.

It does. Turning other people on to the podcast. That ADX Florence, man, is no joke. Supermax. Oh, man. That's big time. It's huge. It's worst of the worst.

Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomers, another one that I've been really fascinated with. I've been thinking about doing sometime soon. Hello, Mike and Gibby. This is Lexi, or you call me Alexa. My name is Alexa Sharp. I've been listening to you guys since, I want to say, December of 2020. What year is it? December of 2020, when I started working at Amazon, your show.

helped me pass the time. I love your guys' connection. I love your podcast. I'm currently on episode 95 of your true crime all the time, original, not the unsolved. And so I'm making my way up to the 200s and to the present, but I'm enjoying your guys' show more than ever, and I really appreciate all that you do. I'm going to try to donate soon, and I am Team Ghibi. And team Mike Ferguson.

I love both of you. I think there wouldn't be one without the other. You guys have a great dynamic and a great friendship, and I really appreciate everything that you've put into these podcasts. I love all of them, even though I haven't started listening to all of them yet. Have a good day or night and keep your own time ticking. That's a lot of binging of our episodes since December of 20. Yeah, I get emails all the time,

and the number of episodes that people can run through in a very short amount of time is often astounding to me. They can really binge. Aloha, Gibby and Mike. Hope you guys are doing great. This is John from Honolulu. I'm a new listener just now working my way back. I think I've listened to 30 or 40 episodes in the last couple of weeks. I really enjoy what you guys do.

I don't know if you've done him yet. Hawaii has a lot of petty crime, not a ton of violent crime, but the worst killing spree in modern history was in 1999 at copy. repair man named Brian Jesky killed, I think, seven or eight of his co-workers at Xerox. What's interesting, and I haven't heard you guys talk about this yet, maybe you have, but I haven't gotten to it, is that evidently this guy years before hit his head in a car crash, and everyone said his personality, everything changed dramatically from that point forward. Also, I'd love to hear you guys butcher Hawaiian and Japanese words, so I hope you guys can make

your way to it if you haven't all right. Anyway, thanks for your podcast and keep your own time kicking. Yeah, the Xerox murders. We actually get a lot of requests for that one. We do. So if you're working your way backwards, you know, in the first, what, two or three years of the podcast gives, we really did talk a lot about head injuries. We still do whenever we find the information. We're just not, I'm not finding it as much lately.

Right. With some of the killers. But, yeah, we've talked about that quite a bit. Also the McDonald triad, things like that. I remember we did the Honolulu St. Drangler. Yeah, I think that's the only case that we've done in Hawaii. And even that,

that was on unsolved. So I don't think we've done a T-Cat in Hawaii that I can remember. I don't believe so. We got to get on that. Yeah. All right, buddy. We had some mailbag. Melissa Sifkin sent us in some cool Harley chips.

Yeah. And Mariah Gomez sent us in these enameled tumblers that her best friend made for her at Shelly's creation shop on Etsy. They're true crime theme. They're really awesome. They're amazing. They have our names on them. Just very cool.

And my kids kind of flipped out because they said this enameled tumbler thing is kind of the new it thing. Wow. And you know my kids are up on that. So we both have an it thing now. We do. Yeah. We do. Don't touch my it thing.

All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.