True Crime All The Time - Christopher Foster

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

In August 2008, British millionaire Christopher Foster murdered his wife Jill and his daughter Kirstie before ending his life inside the family home. Christopher Foster was in extreme debt and on the brink of financial ruin. A week before his death, he received a letter notifying him that bailiffs would seize his house. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murders committed by Christopher Foster. Foster was a self-made multi-millionaire who invented a chemical formula used on oil rigs. But, he spent much more than he earned and soon found himself in debt. How could a man make the decision to murder his wife and daughter? Was it his ego that would not allow him to be viewed as a failure?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 313 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm hanging in there. Yeah, you're hanging?

I'm hanging. All right. As best I can. That's all you can do. Yeah, my wife's sick. She's home all week. We're doing a little quarantine zone. Yeah, I like the heavy plastic around the stairs and all that.

You got a little worried because it looked dextery. It really did. Yeah. I know you were apprehensive about even coming in. But, you know, it's, it is hard to try to all stay in different zones. And we have to coordinate, you know, when she's going to come down and eat. And, you know, my daughter and I are trying not to get around her so we don't get sick. And at least you letting her have some food.

Yeah, well, yeah, we get her food. Yeah. That's for sure. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Jeff Foster. What's going on? Foster from Foster's beer. Skyler Elliott.

He Skyler. Alicia W. What's going on, Alicia. Jordan Krinert. Hey, Krenert. Jennifer Chappell. What's going on, Chapel? Or Chappelle.

Still not sure. Catherine Mohawk. Hey, Catherine. Jessica Machiche. Hey, thank you, Matiche. Ashley. Hey, Ash. Chris Wysack.

What's up, Wysak? Ralph Castaneda. James Camberin jumped out at our highest level. Yeah, very famous person. Thanks, James. He thought it was the director of Titanic. Adam Watson. What's up, Watson?

Rose Rodriguez. Hey, Rose. Andrea Zabel. Azebel. Carol Babin. What's up, Babin? Kaylee Copkinson. Ah, Kaylee.

Marie-Claude Abert. O'Bair. I like that name. Aubere. Rita jumped out of our highest level. Hey, thanks, Rita. Lisbeth Crites. Samantha Butcher.

What's going on, Butcher? And last but not least, Brooklyn Genix. Brooklyn in the house. Yeah. Thanks for all that new support. And then if we go back into the vault. This week we selected our good friend Lottie. And there's Lottie.

We love Lottie. She's been with us, obviously, a long time that she ended up in the vault. She's the best. She even flew all the way from Denmark to, you know, meet us at Crimecom. Yeah. So very cool. She's been a great support of the show. She sent a lot of stuff in to the mailbox over the year.

So love you, Lottie. We also had some PayPal donations from Emily Zook. Hey, Emily. And David Rowe. What's up, David? So thanks to you as well. Well, Gibbs right now on Unsolved, we have an episode out on the Bain family murders. So we're headed to New Zealand.

Yeah. It's a pretty famous case down in there, New Zealand. Down in there? Yeah. Down in there. You don't even know where New Zealand is. It's like over there on the map. Uh-huh.

Section over here. But it's down in there. But down in there. I got you. You know, I go where it's at. No, it is a pretty infamous case. And, you know, there's a lot of, of information, so it's going to be a two-parter.

It is. So, but it's a case that a lot of people have been asking us to cover. Yeah. So we're diving to the murders and dive into the oldest son, David, as well. Yeah. All of it. All of it. All of it.

All right. All right. All right. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We are talking about Christopher Foster. In August 2008, British millionaire Christopher Foster murdered his wife Jill and his daughter,

Kirsty, before he ended his own life, inside the family home. So I mentioned he was a millionaire, but he was also a guy who was in extreme debt. He was essentially on the brink of financial ruin. A week before his death, he received the letter, notifying him that his house was going to be seized.

That's never a good thing. Seizing the house? No. No. It's kind of like the end of, of the financial ladder for some people. Yeah. Because, I mean, that's where you live. That's where you sleep. And if they're going to take that away, okay, what are you going to do? It's where it's like your last safety net. Right. We talk about it all the time, right? Your home is where you should feel

safe. You should be safe. It's not always the case, but it's where you should be. So Christopher was 50 years old. He was married to 49 year old Jill Foster. And the two, had a 15 year old daughter named Kirstie. Jill and Christopher were married for 21 years. So that's, that's a long time. It is a good run. I think it's especially a long time, maybe today. And would you say that more people stayed together longer back in the day? Absolutely. 40s, 50s, 60s. Yes. I just, I look at my grandparents and think, they were together from a very young age until they died. I mean, they lived together, stayed married. And I just think that generation was able to do it for whatever reason,

much more so than a lot of us are today. I think the numbers would reflect that. And I'm not saying it's a bad, I'm not saying they're better. I'm not saying anything like that. I just think statistically, and I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I would, it would have to bear out, I would think. Yeah, especially when you look at all the different factors that you have going on today versus back then, social media and the ease of talking to other people and which you would think maybe leads to greater temptations or finding somebody else that, okay, that would make sense. That would actually make a lot of sense. So Christopher seemed like a very successful businessman. But according to The Guardian, he was actually facing financial

ruin. According to the Daily Mail, Christopher started off as a mattress and pizza box salesman. That's an interesting combination. Yeah, I don't know if that was at the same time selling mattresses and pizza boxes at the same time. In today's world, if you could sell mattresses and pizza boxes, you know, with pizza in them, what you have to do is stand outside of like a marijuana store. And, you know, here's a bed, here's some pizza. It'd be sold. Now, if you have to have to be. Now, if you have to, had a Netflix and chill subscription. Oh, man. And you, and you kind of bundled that. Yeah. You could make some money. So, you know, he started off. I think what the point they were making is he started off doing not what you would call high level jobs. He wasn't the CEO, right, making millions of

dollars. But eventually he became a millionaire. Crime and investigation reported that in 1987, Christopher was what they called an ordinary bloke from Burnley. He had a sales job in Wolverhampton. I'm sure I'm not pronouncing all these correctly. I like the word bloke. I don't know why. It's a nice word. I always have.

Yeah. I don't think it's derogatory, is it? I just think it means like a guy, right? He's a bloke. He's a guy. He's a dude. Yeah. Okay.

He's an average of dude. But his fortunes changed. 1988. In July of that year, the Piper Alpha Oil Platform explosion killed 167 people. So a pretty big disaster. Yes. But what it did was it led Christopher Foster to invent a chemical formula for oil rig insulation. So he invented and patented a new chemical formula by 1997. It took a while, as a lot of inventions do, you know, to get it right, to get it patented. Tested. Tested.

All that stuff. Terrence Baines, Christopher's former accountant told the Guardian, it came to him in a flash. Before then, he was just an ordinary bloke, a salesman living in Telford working for some company that went bust. But one day, he suddenly thought, hang on. If I get a bit of this and a bit of that, a bit of special rubber and plastic and put it all together, it'll make a new type of.

oil rig insulation. So this hallways fascinates me. Yes. You know, how do people come up with this or that? This guy didn't work on an oil rig. He was a mattress salesman, pizza box salesman. Maybe at the same time, maybe not. We don't know. But either way, those seem pretty far from technical oil rig insulation type stuff. Impressive, though, to come up with this. It is. And, and It's kind of that, you know, where there's a will, there's a way. If somebody wants to do something and they work hard. I mean, you can use all the cliches you want to. The invention was called Olvasield.

And Olvis shield won an A1 fire test rating. So basically what happened was all these oil companies started ordering this guy's product. Yeah, probably not only was it good for the fact for what it was going to do, But also probably helped their insurance premiums, you know, by having this. I'm sure it did. Yeah. I mean, if you work in this industry and you have oil rigs where, you know, essentially just 10 years before, there was this huge explosion that killed 167 people

on one rig. And something comes out that would have mitigated that or could mitigate that in the future. You're going to jump on that. Absolutely. It's hard to explain why you wouldn't jump on it if it ever happens again. and you have to explain to a family why you chose not to use a product like this. And invest in some type of safety mechanism, sure.

And I think the other thing is once one oil company does it, they're all going to do it because just like that, just like what you said. It kind of sets the standard. Now, if we don't do it, we're going to be the bad guys if something happens because we didn't do everything we could to prevent it. According to an August 2008 article in The Guardian,

And Christopher was reportedly a millionaire before his 30th birthday. So he owned a company that he called Olva Limited, a thermal insulation firm that sold this insulation technology to oil rigs, which made him a very wealthy guy. Jill was the company secretary. Now, I don't know anybody who's done something like this. I know it does happen where you go from essentially, leading an ordinary middle class life to exploding into multi-millionaire territory. I mean, I've tried, not for lack of it.

Well, you've been there multiple times and then come back down. Yeah. And then you, you know. The lawsuit's always got me in the end. You rise back up. You know, I thought the product was really good and it took off and then turned, turned out that somebody already was making it and they had a patent and, you know, hey, stuff happens.

That's exactly right. According to crime and investigation, Andrew Foster, Christopher's brother said, Chris saw this tremendous opportunity. He saw Piper Alpha and Flames and he considered his opportunity. He put everything into it. He took a risk. You got risk it to make it. Well, and if you watch documentaries on influential people, I was watching a doc on

Richard Branson. Yeah. And it was very interesting. some of the risks that he took that essentially everybody around him said, you're going to lose everything you have. But there was something in his gut that said, nope, this is the right path to take.

And it panned out and he made billions of dollars and the rest is history. Oh, yeah. You know, he's got that island that he had me come to, which was really nice. Yeah. Yeah, they showed that in the documentary.

I didn't see you, but they did show the island. Now, time. These people don't make the news, but you can, I'm sure, find a million stories of people who risked everything and lost everything. Oh, for sure. Yeah. So it does cut both ways. But his brother said that this is one thing that Chris was. He was a risk taker. And he said, I think you've got to admire him for that and making it work. He'd made a lot of money. I mean, at one point, you know, he was bringing product in. He was putting a label on it and sending it out the door,

making 50, 60% plus markup. He called it a license to print money, which, you know, if you get into a territory of 60% markup, it's like printing money. It really is. You know, once you invent the product and make the product, then all you have to do is kind of sit back and just slap a label on it and ship it out. Yeah, and I'm sure he wasn't the label slapper.

He had somebody to do that. But, yeah, inventing a product that people, want. Once you get to that point, then it does start to roll. I mean, I can't say that from experience, but I'm, I'm sure that's how it works. Andrew Foster later revealed that Christopher sexually abused him when he was 11 years old and Christopher was about 15 or 16. As adults, they didn't see each other much and they hadn't spoken for years. And I could see how that could happen. If you have a sibling who hurt you in that way, is that a person that you're going to spend time with as an adult? Absolutely not. No. The foster family eventually purchased a country

home in Maysbrook, Shropshire, valued at 1.2 million pounds. The mansion was called the Osbastin house. Fancy? The name? Yes. Or the 1.2 million pounds? Or both? Guardian journalist John Ronson wrote about Maysbrook. Maysbrook Shropshire is a beautiful, well-to-do village on the Welsh borders. The houses are vine-covered Georgian mansions. The cars parked in the driveways are range rovers and Porsches. The people of Maysbrook are by and large, self-made millionaires from Birmingham and Wolverhampton, entrepreneurs who've made it big. Oh, so where the picky blinders are from.

Exactly. But once they made it big, right? They kind of, especially him, he moved out into some big mansion, maybe in Maysburg. I don't know. Maybe. I never said exactly where it was. Friends reported that Christopher was always laughing and cuddling with Jill. And he was very doting towards his daughter, Kirsty.

But it's been said by many that Christopher had maybe as many as many as. eight different mistresses. That's more than one a day. I don't know if he had them all at the same time. That's one for every day of the week and a spare. Yeah. I mean, these could have not been overlapping.

You do realize that. Over 21 years of marriage, I'm not making light of it. No, no, that's terrible, you know. Now, maybe he had them all at the same time. I don't know. I don't think it's humanly possible.

But you never know. You never know. Jill's sister Ann Giddings told Sunday people he had a big thing about blondes. Jill knew all about his affairs. There were lots of women on the scene, but she played the dutiful wife and kept quiet. He wasn't a good looking guy, but Money did the talking. He was always flashing the cash. It seemed to give him confidence.

Money does that for some people. Yeah, you see it in movies all the time. Yeah. There's a guy with a beautiful woman on his arm. arm. He's not much to look at, but you find out that he's worth, I don't know, 30 billion dollars. And he's super confident. You know why? Because he's got it all. He's got it all. Now, crime and investigation reported that it's also believed Jill had affairs. And they really kind of described it as an open marriage. Well, she's probably like, well, if he's going to do it,

I'm going to do it too. Crime and investigation also said that Christopher had a, quick temper. He was also restless. He had a housekeeper, but when he was home, he was usually cleaning or fixing something around the property. His barn was spotless. His paddocks and lake were picture postcard perfect. He had spent 50,000 pounds landscaping his property. He was said to have spent over 200,000 pounds furnishing the inside of his palatial home with antiques. Now, I do know there are people like that who have to be going and doing something all the time, you know that is not me. That is not you, but kind of what your wife is like. Yes. My wife has to be going until her batteries run out. Yeah. And then it's nap time or bedtime or bedtime or whatever, but she does like to keep busy.

Absolutely. Christopher was known around his village as the millionaire. Hey, there's that millionaire. There's the millionaire. Yeah. I could see that. You know, if you lived in like a village and you knew who this person was and that they had a boatload of money, if you saw him walking, you know, down the street, which they probably wouldn't be. But if you saw him in the range rover, he'd say, there goes the millionaire. Exactly.

There he is. Christopher started dressing in nice clothes, going on vacations and buying luxury cars. He eventually owned a whole fleet of cars. He owned a Ferrari, a Bentley, a Porsche and a Ranger Rover. He also owned a tractor, three horses, four dogs, and Jill had dubs. They sent their daughter, Kirsty, to a private school. So they are living the life. Yeah, it sounds like they were really living the opulent lifestyle.

Right. And I love it. Any chance you get to use the word opulent, because I know how much you love it. Yeah, I've been waiting to use that all year long. So my thought is he's doing very well, right? He's making a boatload of money. He can afford all this. stuff, but at a certain point after his business dealings started going the wrong way,

they didn't change their lifestyle. The fosters continued living that same lifestyle, even though they couldn't afford it. That's always a problem, man, when you live above your means. And that's not just wealthy people. You know, I think probably everybody listening has done it to some degree at one point or another. You buy something you really can't afford. Maybe you don't even really need, but you want it. And you have to buy it on credit.

Okay, if that's all you did and you paid it off, you're good. But if you don't stop. Yeah. And you just keep buying and buying and buying and buying. And it's all credit all the time. That's where people obviously can really get in trouble. And it sounds like that's what they did. They were essentially at one point just lived.

living on credit and they just never got to the point where they scaled back. According to the Guardian at the time of his death, court documents showed that Christopher owed a supplier over one million pounds and he owed the inland revenue 800,000 pounds. Okay, it's a lot of money. It is. In 2003, Christopher Foster entered a contract with a supplier called DRC to exclusively manufacture olivis shield. By 2004, this guy was worth 10 million pounds. And if you just set back and thought about that, being worth 10 million dollars, okay, as long as I don't screw this up, I'm golden.

Yeah, you should be set forever. My kids might even be set. If I invest this wisely and set some aside, but the very next year, 2005, he was spending more than he was making. And that's the trap. I think you see this a lot with professional athletes. Some of the money they make is so large that a lot of us can't fathom it, right? 30, 40 million dollars a year. I've seen NBA players that have made $180 million during a career and they end up broke. And you got to wonder how that happened. But you know what? They don't know how to manage it. Well, here's the other thing. You have to realize this may not, well, in the sports world, it's not going to last forever. In the business world, it may not last forever.

Right. And so you can't spend everything you make. Yeah, you better park some of that aside for that rainy day. And I think that's the problem that a lot of pro athletes have. They're living as though they're going to make $30 million a year for the rest of their life. And they're just not because a playing career can get. cut short, and even if it doesn't, they only last so long. I'm here to tell you right now, Meridian has the best trimmer tool on the market. It provides a superior grooming routine that

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higher than his assets. And the Guardian wrote presumably because he'd spent so much on mansions and Porsches and guns and memberships to various fancy clay pigeon shooting clubs. He was really living it up. To the point that he was that much over what his assets were.

I mean, $2.8 million. When you're making that much money, okay, learn how to budget. You could say that to everyone. Everybody has to budget. Sure. It doesn't matter if you make $40,000 a year, $100,000 a year, or $10 million a year. Now, the budgets are different. Yeah.

Obviously. And you can be a little more frivolous, the more money you have. but you still at some point have to budget. It just can't wing it every day. Just buy whatever you want. Yeah, you can't. Do you need a Ferrari, a Bentley, a Porsche, and a Range Rover? You can live without one of them.

Yeah. Maybe ditch the Range Rover. I don't know. You know, they were sending Kirstie to a private school. I don't have a problem with that. It's education. Christopher found a California supplier who could manufacture his product cheaper. So what happened was this company he'd been working with, this DRC was stuck with a warehouse

full of product that they couldn't sell because of his patent. So they were making it for him. And then he says, you know what? I'm going to get it from somebody else, but they couldn't do anything with it. Because they didn't have the permission to sell it. No, they couldn't sell it to anybody because of his patent. But they ended up suing him and they won. The Guardian reported that on February 28th, 2008, Lord Justice Reimer said that Christopher was bereft of the basic instincts of commercial morality. He was not to be trusted. But what happened as a result of this lawsuit was that DRC took over his patent. And according to a 2008 Guardian article under their less flashy stewardship, Olvis shield became a huge deal in the oil rig world.

They were supplying to Exxon, BP, Shell, and 39 other giant oil companies. Foster, meanwhile, suddenly found out that he had nothing to do. He was staying home. He was looking after the horses and his 15 acres. Interesting how they stripped him of his patent. Yeah, well, I'm sure he couldn't pay this company. And maybe that's how they settled it, settled the lawsuit. I didn't see all the details around it.

But I think the big thing is it should have been him. If he had, you know, kind of managed this company correctly, if he hadn't tried to undercut or get out of this contract with DRC, he would have been the one selling to Exxon, BP, Shell and all these big companies. And he would have continued to rake in the money. But why do you think he looked for this cheaper supplier in California? Save that money. Yeah, because he was spending more than. he was making. So he had to figure out a way to make his margins even higher. It was later revealed that two men went to trial for blackmailing Christopher Foster, but they were cleared in November

2006. So there was two former associates accused of blackmailing him into giving them over 100,000 pounds. Foster alleged that the two men planned to blackmail him after a land deal collapsed and they accused him of making a false allegation to conceal a plot to have one of them assaulted. 35-year-old Timothy Baker was cleared of blackmail, but he was convicted of perverting the course of justice. 42-year-old Leo Dennis was cleared of blackmail. Christopher's house was burglarized in 2006. He told neighbors it was the result of a vendetta connected to his business. I don't think that's really that rare for someone to go into a house. that's owned by somebody you're having some shady business deals with.

I can see people going in and trying to figure out what they can find out and maybe taking some of your good stuff. You don't think it's all that rare? Like you have experience with this or you've heard of this? You've been asked to do this. What are you trying to tell the listening audience? According to my attorney, I'm allowed to talk about it. Okay.

I got you. I don't know if it's all that common, but I'm sure it does happen. We know a lot of shady stuff happened. administrators were appointed for Christopher's business on August 14th, 2007. But on September 26th, the High Court in Birmingham ordered that the company would be wound up and liquidators appointed. According to the Guardian, it seemed like the liquidators prevented him from selling or remorgeting his home because records showed that a court order from October 2007 ordered that no deposition by the proprietor of,

of the registered estate is to be registered except under a further order. And one of the things I want to do is look at the timeline. You know, we, we said 2005. He's worth $10 million. Yeah. By 2007, it has crumbled. He's in the hole. Well, by the next year, I think he was in the hole.

By 2007, he's essentially lost almost everything. Kind of like those lot of winners that somehow lose it all overnight. Yeah. A lot of them give it away. I've seen some of those shows. Really? Well, because everybody comes out of the woodwork, people you barely know and they're asking you for things.

If you're not the type of person that can say no, you could get into big trouble. Because there are some people that just want to help everybody. Sure. And you're going to be asked, though, for things that you wouldn't be asked for if you were just working a normal day job. Right. Yeah.

I need $10,000 for this. I need $20,000 for that. Big ticket items. And it adds. up very, very quickly. Crime and investigation reported that Christopher's salary was stopped and a three million pound freezing order was placed on his assets. By the end of his life, Christopher remorgeted his house three times. He had 20 different bank accounts, one of which was overdrawn by 330 pounds. How do you overdraw a bank account by 330,000 pounds? This is writing a big check, man. Did I say

330,000 or just 33030? Uh, but I know you meant 330. It's, yeah, it's, it's definitely 330,000. You think at some point the bank's going to cut you off. You would think they'd say, hey, we're going to kind of put this on pause until you bring some money in. Not, you know, I don't live in this type of rarefied millionaire air, but I know from past experience, if I get overdrawn by like $20, there's bells and alarms going off.

They're calling me. Yeah. My card gets declined. I don't know how much is your overdraft protection on something like that? I don't know. He's got like, he's got a million dollars. Yeah.

On October 13th, 2007, a court order was issued for the company to be wound up. They kept using this phrase wound up. Yeah. And to me, I found it to be like liquidated. Maybe is the term that we would use over here. It would be, I think. Are you going to figure a way to package it up to get it out the door? Well, and they got to.

because I'm sure there's creditors calling, right? He owes a lot of money to a lot of different people. As mentioned previously, Christopher started spending a lot of time at home. His biggest hobby was clay pigeon shooting, which he did at least once a week. His friend Graham Evans told the Guardian, he loved guns. He had hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of them. He was a real collector. I know there are some expensive guns, but hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of guns.

I'm sure there's a lot of guns. It sounds like a whole bunch of guns. But shooting those clay pigeons are kind of fun. Yeah, I've only done it a few times, but it is fun. It is fun. I know there's one place, a few hours from me where it's almost like a golf course layout, but you, you ride in like little golf carts to the next set of where you're going to shoot the clay pigeons.

And then everybody shoots and then you get in the golf cart and you go to the next point. I don't know. Try to make it a little fun. I guess. I know. But there's no doubt Christopher was struggling, right? By this point in time, crime and investigation reported when a friend texted him and asked him if he was all right, he answered, not really. I think everything's coming to a head for me. All right, you get that back from a friend. It's pretty ominous. I think you have to be alarmed and have some major concern for your friend. Yeah, I think so. I mean, you can take that. Everything's coming to a head for me a couple of different ways. Now, maybe we're thinking it's a little more ominous because we know what the end result is going to be.

Sometimes I know that happens to me. In the spring of 2008, Christopher started taking antidepressants after he told his GP that he was feeling suicidal. Christopher told his friend Mark Bassett that he'd rather die of suicide than lose his house. He said, they're not having my stuff. I will top myself. They will carry me out of the house in a box. In July 2008, Christopher almost died. He was parked on his tractor for unknown reasons. He decided to put it in reverse. And then a few minutes later, a massive tree branch fell off a willow tree where he was just parked. So essentially, he could have died if he had not moved the tractor. Christopher's friend Ian told the Guardian,

I was at the house when there was an big crash, a massive branch as big as a tree had come off a willow and crashed onto the path. Chris came running out. He said his tractor had been parked exactly where the branch had landed. But he decided for absolutely no reason to reverse it 40 yards out of the way just a few minutes earlier. It was a lucky escape.

Although if it had hit him, it would have been a godsend for the other two. So obviously, this is an article that comes out later. Sure. And you know, you and I have talked about this. Once you know what a person has done,

and in this case, we said it right up front, Christopher Foster kills his wife and daughter. This guy is essentially saying, looking back, would that have been the worst thing in the world? Because it would have saved the lives of his wife and daughter.

I can see where he's trying to make a case for it. The week before he died, Christopher looked at websites about suicide. He also started looking through old family photos. The main trigger for the murders seemed to be a letter that was posted on the gates the week before. A housekeeper found it. The Daily Mail reported that to be opened only by Christopher was printed on the front. The housekeeper gave it to him as he was leaving.

And it was said that he looked puzzled. He put it on the seat and then he drove off. And essentially, this was a letter, notifying him that they were going to repossess the house. The nightmare that they didn't want was finally going to occur. Yeah, I don't think it can be understated what a big deal that would be. Now, should you do what this guy did? Absolutely not.

But it would be a life-changing event that I'm sure a lot of people have gone through. It can't be easy. August 25th, 2008 was a bank holiday. Kirstie was on a break from school. The foster family attended a barbecue at their friend John Hughes House. I'm assuming that's not the same John Hughes who made breakfast club, 16 candles, all our favorite movies from the 80s. Could be though.

It could be. I'm assuming it's not, but it could be. Was it he married the Bo Derek? I have no idea. I think he was. I don't think so. I think he was. We'll find out.

Yes, we will. A photo of the family was taken into barbecue, just hours before they die. Christopher participated in a clay pigeon shoot. Eventually, he told Jill, I've had enough. I want to go home. So I don't think there's any doubt. This clay pigeon shooting thing was a big deal. He was doing it all the time, doing it at a barbecue.

So he wanted to go home. Jill wanted to stay, but I guess she gave in. And the family went home. in the early morning hours of August 26, 2008. Christopher Foster murdered Jill and Kirstie and set his property on fire. Jill went to bed first the night before. Christie stayed up after midnight, chatting with a friend online. But Christopher turned the internet off and she then went to sleep.

There was no indication that either one of them knew what was going to happen. I don't think they would ever dream that it would get to this point. this is the place you should always feel safe. Well, I don't know how many wives and daughters would think that. Oh my gosh, I'm scared. I think my dad's going to kill me. Unless there's some, you know, big time provocation that happens before it. According to crime and investigation, it was soon after Kirstie went to bed that Christopher

attached a silencer to his 22 rifle. He most likely shot Jill first. Jill was shot in the back of the head in her bedroom. Christopher then walked to Kirstie's room and shot her in the back of the head. And then after that, he methodically destroyed his property. Christopher flooded the house with what was estimated to be about 200 gallons of oil. Oh my gosh, man. That's a lot.

That is a bunch of oil. 200 gallons. He distributed oil and oil soaked rags throughout the house to make sure that the fire would spread. He set the house on fire at 309 a.m. according to crime and investigation. Christopher then fatally shot three horses and four dogs. He blocked the front gates with a horse box,

which apparently is the British term for horse trailer. Then he shot out the tires and took the keys with him. And then he started setting fires on the property. So, you know, he's really going to some effort. And you just, you wonder how methodically planned out this was because it doesn't seem spur of the moment. No, it feels like it has some type of planning underlying it. Right.

So he's got his rifle. He's got the silencer. And yes, maybe he already had that stuff. But then why shoot the horses and the dogs? Because you know there's not going to be anybody left to take care of them. And you feel as though that's about. better option than letting them starve maybe? I don't know. I don't know what he was thinking. Yeah, I don't know how somebody could hurt, you know, the horses and the dogs. How can you do that?

Well, in his mind, he must have had a justification. I'm not saying it would make sense to any of us, but there must have been something that made him think, oh, I should kill them as well. But I can only speculate as to what it would be. But then you have, you know, blocking the entrance. He doesn't want anybody to get in to be able to stop this fire. And he just doesn't block it. He shoots out the tires. He takes the keys with him. He's going to make it as hard as possible to move this out of the way. Christopher went back into the house and he laid down next to Jill. He had a loaded gun, but he didn't shoot himself. He died from smoke inhalation. It seems like a tough way to go. That's a rough way to kill yourself. Yeah, I mean, that's what I was thinking too. Obviously, they would know whether or not he

had a loaded gun. He had one. So the question is, why didn't he use it? He'd already shot his wife and daughter. He was going to end his life, but he didn't want to do it that way. He just laid down next to his wife and died from, you know, the smoke filling his lungs. The first crew responded to the house at 4.29 a.m. They had to move the horse box out of their way. By the time they got to the house, the fire was said to have been so intense that emergency services couldn't enter. The police were forced to watch evidence being destroyed. So I think at first, the foster family were considered missing because they hadn't been seen since sometime before the fire. the mansion and several outhouses were all on fire.

Officers were able to search some of the outhouses. They found the family's horses, but they didn't find any of the family members. According to Detective Superintendent John Groves, two horses were found dead and four dogs were missing. The house, garage, stable block, and an outbuilding were damaged by fire. It was said that the fire burned for three days. John Groves told the Daily Mail, it was like a clay oven turning everything to ash. It took 12 fire crews several days to put out the fire.

Yeah, how intense that had to be. Well, and because of the oil, right? 200 gallons of oil. Yeah. Oil soaked rags set around the house to get it really going. And then, you know, 200 gallons of oil is going to burn hot and for a long time. It'll take a while for it to burn off. The investigation into the incident was named Operation Feed-Beeb.

It involved almost 80 officers and civilian staff. The police treated the fire as an arson, but they didn't immediately declare a murder inquiry. By August 28th, the police and specialist search teams planned to enter the home. By this time, they thought the family was inside, even though they were officially still considered missing. Initial report suggested that the fosters were fatally shot outside, and their house was set on fire.

The police refused to confirm or deny. One spokesman said, there's a lot of speculation going on. When we are able to, we will issue facts. We're not able to get into the building. So we don't know what if anything is inside. We're not making any comment on speculation.

Well, at this point, that's probably a good thing not to do. Yeah, I think unless you have facts, it's pretty tough to really come out and say much. Because you're just guessing. And you don't want to be guessing with something like this.

On August 29th, specialist teams restarted their search after they were forced to withdraw due to falling debris and masonry. Officers wanted to search for human remains in the home. The head of the investigation announced that it could take days or weeks to search the house. Superintendent Gary Higgins would not confirm if gun cartridges and pools of blood were found on the estate. There were also rumors about the horse box parked behind the gates. Higgins appealed for anyone who had seen the family since the beginning of the weekend

to come forward. Later that evening, investigators found two bodies close together inside the house. But all that remained were teeth and burned bones. It tells you how tense that he was. It was a serious fire. The police began examining dental records to identify. identify the two bodies. The Guardian reported that the remains of three family dogs were found in the hallway of the house. At the same time, the police were examining Kirstie's computer for evidence

of a motive. They found that she was chatting with friends until about 1 a.m. on the day of the fire. Her friend said that the chat ended abruptly. Now, that'll happen when somebody turns off the internet in the home. Oh, I can't even imagine what that be like here. If you turn the internet off here. Oh my gosh. I mean, everybody would bolt out of their rooms screaming. What's going on? I can't watch the office.

I can't play this game. My wife can't watch her Hallmark movies or HGTV. There's a good April Fool's thing to do next year. Well, I might be screaming myself. I can't play my Xbox. There you go. But I do know there are a lot of families that do that. They have a time limit.

And I think it's a good thing, right? You don't want kids. in their room, you're already asleep, you don't know it, but they're staying up till two, three, four in the morning playing games or watching movies or whatever. One theory that emerged was that Christopher was targeted because of his finances. Another theory was that he couldn't take it. And he killed his family. As mentioned previously, news outlets reported that Christopher owed a supplier over one million pounds.

He owed the inland revenue 800,000 pounds. Christopher started another company named Olva International. But an appeal court judge ruled that he essentially conducted what the judge called an asset stripping exercise so that he could continue trading. Basically just changed the name up. Right. A little bit. Still big no no. On August 31st, officers revealed that one of the bodies was identified as Jill Foster.

Jill died of a gunshot wound to the head and a murder investigation was started. The police then revealed that three horses and four dogs were all shot and spent and unspent cartridges were found on the property. On September 1st, detectives confirmed that a third body was found in the main part of the mansion believed to be Kirsty Foster. And that same day, one of the bodies was identified as Christopher Foster. And really right away, police came out and said, Christopher Foster killed his wife and daughter before he died of suicide. Detective Superintendent John Groves spoke about CCTV footage showing Foster carrying a rifle and leaving out buildings before they caught on fire as well as blocking the gates with the horse box.

So, I mean, these people had money. They had security cameras. Yeah. And I'm assuming he didn't care what those cameras would later show. Because they essentially showed everything he did leading up to the murders, showed him setting the fires. Had it all right there. Good evidence.

Well, it kind of takes the guess word. It does. Out of putting all the pieces together. Right. The video footage is showing you all the pieces. All right there at your fingertips. On September 25th, the corner's inquest was opened into the three desks.

The inquest heard that Kirstie's remains were found in an area underneath her bedroom. There was no cause of death for Kirstie or Christopher. The police were conducting tests to determine if a rifle found in the house was the murder weapon. John Grove said that DNA tests and dental records were used to identify the bodies. The coroner adjourned the inquest until the police investigation was completed. the Fosters were buried on December 19th, 2008. But there was a separate funeral for Christopher. And I think you would almost have to do that once the determination was made that,

you know, he killed his family. On April 2nd, 2009, a coroner ruled that Christopher Foster unlawfully killed his wife and daughter by shooting them in the head before he killed himself. So I think they knew it early on, but this is the official. official ruling. The official official? Official official. Okay.

The inquest heard that Foster's company went into liquidation in October 2007. The inquest also heard that in December 2005, Christopher went to the police and reported that his former accountant was blackmailing him over a property deal. Photos of the house before and after the fire were shown. Pictures of the dining room showed containers of. heating oil on the floor. It's hard to deny arson when you have heating oil all over the floor. Yeah, it's kind of tough. It came out that Christopher was found lying on top of Jill on the floor under their bedroom. A pathologist testified that Jill died from a gunshot wound to the back of the

head. Kirstie died of a wound to the left side of her head caused by a high velocity impact. So the thought was she most likely died of a gunshot wound, but the pathologist couldn't rule out the possibility that she was killed by falling debris. Alcohol was found in foster urine, which indicated he may have been drinking that night. His cause of death was listed as inhalation of the products of combustion. All right. So breathing in, what was burning? But here's the part that I didn't understand and it was not elaborated on. If this guy burns up in the fire. And what is left is essentially teeth and bones. How are they figuring out what is in his urine? I could not figure that part out. Maybe he used the toilet right before this

happened and there was still urine in the toilet. Maybe I don't know. I can't imagine that they, they drew that from his body. But maybe there's a way to do it. I'm sure one of our corner listeners will way in. So, you know, I mentioned the security system. Some of that footage was shown at the inquest, footage of Christopher walking around his mansion. The security footage was captured between 312 a.m. and 3.49 a.m. on August 26th, 2008. It was said that the footage wasn't great quality, but that it did show, you know, him and all of his actions. Christopher was seen walking to and from the stables. At one point, two of the family dogs walked into the frame, and then he was seen carrying what is believed to be the dog's bodies to the stables.

He drove a horse box down the driveway and parked it in front of the gates, and this is what later prevented firefighters from quickly accessing the property. Several minutes later, he was seen carrying a long item, which police believed to be a gun. He had not been jack attached to his belt, which was believed to be a battery pack. He was then seen holding a bucket and a roll of piping. He bent down over one of the buckets and a tiny flash was seen on screen. And this flash, they believe, came from a cigarette lighter. And then the first explosion occurred at 3.45 a.m.

Smoke was seen coming from the stables. According to crime and investigation, the corner suggested, that Christopher left the CCTV footage running as a witness of his actions for those remaining. Because he could have turned it off easily. Right. It's his system. It is his system. If he knew, which I believe he did, that he was going to carry these acts out. He could have gone and turned the system off. It wouldn't have recorded anything. So I think you have the corner making this theory that, well, there obviously was a reason why he left it on. And the reason was because he wanted people to know.

Yeah. Exactly what happened, how it happened. He definitely was in control of this whole process. You can tell he really planned it out. It doesn't seem to have been spur of the moment to me. Coroner John Ellery told the inquest that the most likely scenario was that Kirstie and Jill were shot while they were sleeping shortly before Christopher was seen on CCTV. John said that Christopher went about things quickly and methodically, which indicated planning, just kind of like what we were just talking about.

But we mentioned that they had gone to this friend's barbecue right the day before. The Guardian said that, you know, most people said Christopher appeared to be his normal self. He wasn't acting strangely. Nothing seemed wrong at the time. We mentioned it. He even participated in a clay, uh, pigeon shooting thing. And I just don't understand that. You know, if you know in your mind that tonight later on, I'm going to do this horrible thing. How do you go through the barbecue as though

nothing is wrong? This is just a normal day. I'm going to drink a little. I'm going to shoot some clay pigeons. I'm making jokes with friends. Kind of tells you what kind of person he was. Yeah. I don't get it. I mean, I think, you know, even maybe the bigger question is how does somebody do this anyway? How does somebody kill their, their wife and their daughter? We can never understand that. Yeah, I don't know how you could do that to your wife and child, the people you're supposed to love the most in the world. But we said, right, Christopher was in severe debt. Creditors were going to repossess his home. And it was going to happen on the morning of the fire. So I think, you know, once they put all that together,

obviously the security footage was kind of a no-brainer type deal. It showed everything. But you start to get a few other pieces of the puzzle. Now, it was said that Christopher confessed to two friends that he was owed millions of pounds by Russians. He also told a family doctor that he was having suicidal intentions. The Russians owed them millions. The Guardian reported that Christopher told a friend that Jill and Kirstie were accustomed to a certain quality of life. And he felt that they wouldn't be able to cope if they needed to take a few backward steps. According to the mirror, Christopher's longtime friend Mark Bassett said at the inquest, he said he didn't want to put Jill and Kirstie through a backward step in life if he lost

everything, as he did not think they could cope. Now, we've heard this before. If you think back to John List, this was one of the things that he said. He didn't want to put his family through like moving down in status or something. And I hate when these individuals make those choices for their family. It's unbelievable to think that they would rather be dead than have to drive a civic instead of a Porsche. Yeah. or live in a smaller house or whatever it is.

I get it. This guy's ego was taking a major blow. But are you telling me that his wife and child couldn't handle taking a step back financially? I'm sure they could have, but maybe his ego couldn't handle it. Yeah, I think you're right. His ego was in the way because I think if he would have had that conversation with his loved ones, maybe they would have been like, you know what? We're okay with that, dad.

We'll figure it out. We'll get through it. Exactly. Bassett also said Chris told him the only way he could get out of his problems was to take his own life. He said he would go down to the woods near the house with a shotgun. He asked me to look after Jill and Kirstie if anything happened to him and I told him not to be so stupid. When I heard about the fire, this is Bassett talking. He said, I thought he'd gone and killed his wife and daughter as well.

So from that conversation, it sounds like, you know, he had thoughts about ending his life, obviously. But the thought was that he would end just his life because he asked his friend to take care of his wife and child. If that's your decision to take your own life, we'll stop at that decision. Don't carry on and make that decision to take your wife and your child's life too. Let them decide what they want. Yeah, obviously, we're not advocating. for self-harm here, but if somebody's mind is made up and they're going to do that and it does happen, we know, it's sad. It's pretty hard to stop people once their mind is made up. But to your

point, why would you take that extra step and kill your loved ones too? I mean, I don't understand any of it. I wish none of it happened. Sure. But it does. But I do get your point. According to the guardian, Coroner John Ellery said there were three fires, two outside, and the fire in the house was started in the library. Jill Foster was unlawfully killed. Kirsty Foster was unlawfully killed. And Christopher Foster killed himself. Kirsty and Jill had everything to live for. Kirsty had her whole teenage and adult life in front of her. This guy's saying what we say all the time.

You know, these people who have their lives taken away. from them, especially young people. I mean, she had so much life in front of her. And Jill did as well. Watch manager of Oswestry Fire Station Jonathan Davy said that it would have been impossible to save the family due to the intensity of the fire. The fire caused so much damage that the bodies had to be identified by DNA. A home office pathologist determined that it would have taken 10, 20 minutes. for Christopher to die of smoke inhalation. Firefighter David Mentor discovered a whole cut in a 2,000-liter heating oil tank on the side of the house.

It looked like there was a pipe leading from the tank to the boiler room on the kitchen side of the property. And we mentioned it. Right in the security footage, Christopher was seeing carrying a coil of piping. So now we know what he was up to? Yeah, it was essentially tapping into. you know, this big, large reservoir of heating oil. Certainly explains why it was so intense.

The Guardian reported that forensic scientist David Skaysberg said that the fire started on the ground floor of the older section of the house. He testified, in the dining room, there was a metal drum, a flammable liquid lying on its side and a number of towels spread across the floor. The coroner recommended that firearms licensing authorities, contact family doctors when someone applies for a firearms license. They should also inform the police. If a patient has a change in medical circumstances relevant to the license.

And this comes up, you know, in a lot of cases here in the U.S., right, when you have a tragedy, especially on a very large scale, right, when we have these mass shootings, these are the type of conversations that come up. What do we do about gun laws? What would prevent this? Could we have prevented it? The foster family issued a statement outside court. They said,

What has shocked us as a family is the failure of different branches of the public service to work together, even when the objective is as essential as the prevention of lives. It has become apparent that Christopher had been mentally ill for some time and had discussed with his GP and other people that he intended to take his own life. preventative measures such as improved communication between GPs and police force, firearms officers could help stop a similar tragedy happening. You know, it's always frustrating when you have these different agencies not communicating with each other.

Well, but I don't know what the duty is of a doctor over there. I don't even know what it is here. if somebody comes in and says, you know, I'm having suicidal thought. What is the duty? Do you have to reach out to an agency and say, this is what my patient is saying? I know, like, as a therapist, if somebody says they're intending to harm someone, there's a duty. Sure.

To reach out and report that. But I don't know what it is if somebody says they're going to hurt themselves. And should there be, right? So there's a question. Does that mean that if that person's a firearm owner, there's some duty that the police need to go and confiscate their guns and all that? I don't know. Yeah, I don't either. Diving into some.

These are really tough question. Yes. In 2010, Urban Explorer Jason Kirkham took photos of the property, but the photos weren't published until 2016. He claimed the property was not closed off at this time. The house showed signs of normal fans. family activities, like a grocery list with a meal plan, jars of food in the cabinets, a pair of tennis shoes left on the floor, and a horse first aid book. Kirkham told Mail Online on entering the property.

It suddenly hit me that this dreadful episode in a family's life wasn't just a new story anymore. I couldn't help but picture the laughter, the love, and the tears the property once housed. That made it a home. Then you look around and realize that, It was instantly wiped out quite literally in a flash after no doubt weeks of planning. And I do think that would be surreal. And I'm not even sure if that's the right word. You know, we research these stories.

We talk about these stories. But to actually, you know, be inside of the home pretty much as it looked when they live there. And to know what happened inside that house that I feel like that would be a very eerie feeling. I'm getting a little goosebumps now. I think of getting little chills of kind of thinking what that would be like. The property was sold in 2014. The house was eventually demolished and plans were made for a new mansion to be built. A man named Kevin Gorski purchased the land in 2014 for 4,000 pounds after the original house was demolished.

He believes the land is cursed. He spent one million pounds on his new. house, but the house quickly started falling apart. Okay. Is it cursed or did you have a bad builder or? I'm thinking you might want to talk to the contractor. And I always think in these cases, I mean, don't you have to demolish these homes? I think.

Is there somebody out there that would buy it on the cheap? Maybe. Yeah, possible. I know I wouldn't. I would never live in a house. I don't care how nice it is. and if I got it for, you know, 40 cents on the dollar, I'm not going to live in a house where a man killed his family and then himself.

Now, obviously, this house was essentially burnt to the ground. So it had to be demolished. I'm talking more about a home where it wasn't set on fire. Yeah. Who's buying that house and living there as though nothing happened? Somebody might. There's some people that okay with that, you know? You know, if you could get a, you know, multi-million dollar mansion for next to nothing, would you, would you do it? Maybe. I would. I don't know if I would. There's people that would. That stuff just does not bug them, bother them. Now, would you buy the land and build a new house on the land? Because I do think there's a big difference there. There is potentially. I mean, if you leave in ghosts and stuff, you might be like, I don't know. Maybe, uh, I just.

stay away from that project. Well, this guy spent 1.4 million pounds. Yeah. I'm sure he could have spent that somewhere else. Well, that's true. Not on land where this terrible incident happened. Well, I don't think this guy did anything wrong. I think he was taking advantage of a good deal. Yeah, I'm not saying he did anything wrong. I'm saying, would you do it? And I don't know if I, if I would. If I had that much money to spend, I might just find a different location. Over a decade later, the Christopher Foster case is still one of the UK's most horrifying examples of family, murder, suicide. You know, we talked about it at one point in his life, Christopher Foster was a prime example

of kind of a self-made millionaire, right? He came from essentially nothing. He was a bloke. It was an ordinary bloke. Yeah. That's what they said. He had an idea. The idea was great.

He built a company. But he started making some very poor financial decisions, bad planning. He got into extreme debt. And rather than kind of make the effort to fix it, change the family's lifestyle, he thought it was better to murder his wife and daughter and take his own life. So selfish. Yeah. It's just unbelievably.

Yeah, it's just so hard for me to comprehend. I get it. No one wants to move backwards in life. Right. If you're accustomed to a certain lifestyle, nobody wants to move down. No. And have to eat ground chuck instead of filet mignon. No. But when your finances change, you have to change with it. Yeah, you make the adjustment. And conversely, if you start making a bunch of money, yes, can you enjoy some of the finer things in life? Absolutely. Yeah. Is there not a time I'm hoping that eventually I'll be able to get back to eat at the Waffle House every

day? I would love for you to get back there. You know? The problem is if you're making $10 million a year or 10 million pounds or whatever it is, you can't spend 13. No. It just literally doesn't work that way. It defeats the whole purpose.

How about you spend four or five and you save five or six? And then you're really rolling. Yeah. Try that. Try that philosophy. But, you know, it was just a, it's just such a sad story. Yeah. That, and you use the word selfish.

I think it's a very, very good word. It's a very good description of this guy. Because, you know, even that comment that he made to a friend, well, I don't want my wife and daughter to have to move backwards. They're not going to be able to cope. Why do you make that decision for them, though? Because you're being selfish. Exactly.

You know, his wife's an adult. She can make that decision for her. And their daughter was old enough that, you know what? She could probably make that decision for herself as well. And my thought is 100% of the time. The decision that people would make is to live. Yeah. They'll figure out a way to cope.

But he just wouldn't, he wasn't going to allow it. And I just think, you know, selfish is a good word. I think his ego wouldn't allow him to move forward knowing that he had kind of lost everything or, you know, thrown it away or whatever term you want to use. Right. It's just extremely sad. But that's it for our case on Christopher Foster. We got some voicemails, Gibbs.

You want to check those out? Yeah, I want to hear those. Gide, boys. It's Glenn from Port McCorry, Australia. I've just discovered you guys on about episode two. 99 and I'm working backwards down. I'm about down for 2.15 or something. I just want to say, I really like your banter and all that like everyone does.

I'm definitely team Fergie. Sorry, Giddy, but you're getting too much love. It's just like you just swoop in at the last minute and take all the glory when poor Mike does all the work. Also, I've got a few suggestions for some Australian ones that you guys mightn't have heard of. I haven't looked at all your ones. So if you've got them, I'm sorry, but the first one's Alison Baden Clay, killed by a husband.

That's a good one. It's a bit like a Chris Watts type one. The Snowtown murders. That one pretty much speaks for itself, really gruesome. Eight bodies in six barrels, that type of thing. And the last one is Daniel Morecam. Now, that one's really good because of the police operation that they got in with. It was unreal.

Like, if you look into that one, Fergie, I think you'll really like it. And next time you do an Australian one, you've got to call Gibby-Gibbo, because over here we run Gibbo. We don't run giddy. And that's about it. Keep you heading a swivel boy. See you later. All right.

Love the accent. Oh, yeah. And this is a guy who gets it. He really gets it. Does he? Yep. You swoop in. You're getting all the glory.

That's what I'm doing. I'm a swooper. We did Snowtown, right? We did the bodies in the barrel, I thought. I thought we did. If not, we talked about doing it. But at some reason I think you did it, maybe it was a two-parter. I don't remember, though.

we definitely have not done the other two. We have not. So we will look into those. Hey, guys. This is Erica from San Diego. I'm actually not in my car. I am in the middle of the Sheena Huber's episode. And when my,

Ferguson, when he said that if he would move towards somebody with the gun, then back away. I think it's a 21-foot rule, but for police officers. in general. It takes about 21 feet for, so if there is somebody like trying to attack you,

you have 21 feet is how long, or like the minimum distance it takes for them to get to you to unholt to your weapon. I don't know if I'm saying this great. So if somebody's running to you, if they're like pretty much under or within 21 feet, they're going to get to you before you

unholds to your weapon. He kind of has something by saying he would go towards her, but she already has the gun out. So it's a little different. But yeah, I just wanted to say that. So you guys have a good day. Take care.

I love the baby in the background. Oh, yeah. That sound cracks me. So 21 feet. I'm trying to lay that out here in the studio. That's a good distance, man. I don't think somebody can run towards me and get to me in 21 feet. Don't even think about it.

We're not going to test it out. Before I'm able to unholster my way. Yeah. Now, that might be a police rule, and I think she said that. Or she did. You know, a lot of times the police have that, they have extra snaps. You know, they don't want somebody just to walk by and pull their, their gun out because their guns are always out. So it might take them a little longer to unholster their weapon than some people.

Hi, Mike and Gibby. I'm anoreen. I'm contacting you all the way from Cape Town in South Africa. I've been listening to you guys for a few years now. Usually you are my company on the road to work and back home on my commute. I thought you might want to know about this very interesting and fairly scary case in South Africa. It's our very own version of Charlie Manson and, you know, his family. And this is about Cecilia Steyn.

and her religious group, well actually cult, who murdered 11 people firstly for revenge and later on for money. And they were sentenced and put in prison a while back. But I think you guys might find the case extremely interesting because it's got twist symptoms and it's got one of their own members that they've murdered. There are two teenagers involved with the group as well. Yeah. So it's really a scary story. So read up on it and I am going to listen to your podcast to see what you thought of it. South Africa.

Yeah. I don't know if that was a good accent or not, but I love it when we get calls from all around the world. We do. And we'll definitely check that case out. For real. All right, buddy, we had mailbag. Oh, we did? Yeah.

Don Chick sent us in a serial killer. trivia book. Oh. Which we may put to use in the future. Like that. Tammy Gibson sent us in two serial killer maps. Yeah. They're actually cool.

They're laminated. Nice. One is the entire U.S. And then there's one just of South Carolina. I guess she likes South Carolina the most. I'm assuming she lives in South Carolina. I don't know that to be a fact, but it would be strange to send one from another state that you don't live in.

Wasn't one where like they drew the little circles on the map themselves, right? It wasn't like a personal map. I don't know if these were handmade or bought. Like maybe like this is like their map. No. No, it's definitely a well-known serial killer. It's listed. It's not just these are where murders happened and nobody knows who did that type of deal.

So we appreciate that. All right, buddy, that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.