True Crime All The Time - Clifford Burns

Episode Date: December 24, 2018

Clifford Burns murdered his estranged wife Patricia on December 24th, 2013 in front of his children. Cliff's life had been spiraling out of control for some time. But, he received a call that day that sent him over the edge. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss this Christmas Eve murder committed by a man who perceived that everyone was against him, everyone was out to get him. What type of learned behavior during his childhood led him to commit this murder of the woman who he professed to love? And how can a father do something so horrible in front of his children? Interrogation audio of Clifford Burns after his arrest provides some insight into his mindset leading up to the murder.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 110. 110. Of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Giddy, how are you? I'm doing all right, man. I like him when you're doing all right. Yeah.

Doing better than last week. And that's a good thing. Yeah. Keeping my head afloat. What about the rest of you? How you just, just the head? Yeah, you know, I got to start somewhere. The rest of you, you're totally fine to let that go beneath the surface.

Let it dangle. Let's start out wishing everyone a happy holiday, because I'm kind of afraid I'll forget at the end. Yeah. Let's just do it right up front. Happy holidays. Happy holidays to everybody, you know, regardless of what holiday you celebrate. And if there is no holiday that you celebrate. Happy laying on the couch, binging your favorite Netflix.

Or have fun with friends and family. Or listen to T-Cat from the very, very beginning all over again. Or do that. Or do that. 110 episodes. You, they keep you busy. But this is our last episode before Christmas.

Yeah. And then we'll come back next week with a Patreon episode that we did for Patreon. That were release on. That we're releasing on T-Cat. That'll give Gibby and I the week of Christmas off. Yeah. But there'll be an episode of T-Cat out for everyone. So there you go.

So how you doing, by the way. You know, I'm doing pretty good. Yeah. It was a strange week for me. This was the week that I turned in my laptop. Yeah. I did that on Wednesday. So really, I woke up Thursday and it was my first day, essentially in 20 some odd years that I was, I'm technically not unemployed to the 28th, but it felt that way. I made my coffee and I came down and worked in the studio all day. And you got your new office attire. Yeah, sweatpants and a t-shirt. You actually went out and bought a couple pairs of sweatpants. I bought new sweatpants at Sam's Club because I figured I would be staying home quite a bit more. You're very, very proud of your new sweatpants. My $12 sweatpants. Yeah. I'm a bargain shopper.

Yeah, I think he's like it because they had a little zipper on the side. I got pockets and a zipper. I don't know what you're going to put in all those pockets. Hey. But you're set. If you ever need pockets, I got that. You're the pocket man. All right. Let's do our Patreon shout-out. outs. We had Laura Kajikob jumped out or up to our highest level. Catch a job. She's been a Patreon supporter. So I got too shy to shy. Mitch Lowness. And this one I got to talk about for a minute. Yeah. Mitch is a big fan of the show. His wife actually reached out to us and said, hey, I want to do something special for like a stocking stuffer. So what she did is she bought him a years worth of Patreon. Yeah, that's like the perfect kid.

It's awesome. Jennifer was really thinking on that one. But there was nothing that she could stick in the stocking that says, here, you're now a Patreon supporter. So, Gibby, what you and I did is we wrote her an email, addressed it to Mitch and just said, hey, man, you have an awesome wife. She did this for you. Which was better than the alternative. Which was what? You showing up at their house?

Yeah. And saying, ta-da. In a skin tight. Elf on the shelf out. suit? I would do it. I know you would, and that's what scares me. Yeah.

But I thought that was really cool. It's a neat story. He's going to get up sometime Tuesday. He's going to read this. It's going to be his best Christmas present ever. And he's not going to know ahead of time because he's not caught up. Yeah, he's only like what, episode 80. He's like on 80 something, she said.

And he's not, he doesn't know he's a Patreon. Yeah. So he's not going to listen to our normal, weekly Patreon. Unless she's not good at keeping secrets. Well, that's true. She might be too excited and be like, either way, it's cool. Yeah. So we had Brendan McLaughlin. Thank you, McLaughlin. Kay Kroniski. Megan Smith. Hey, Megan. Samantha O'Lear. Thank you, Samantha O. Pat Harley jumped out at our highest level. Oh, thank you. Brandy Salae. Hey, thanks, Brandy. Adam Sanders. Hey, Adam Sanders. Cat Cradle.

Cat Cradle. You know that's a band. I know you think it is. Or like a really cool poet. Gibby and I always try to think of when we get something that's not quite a name, we try to figure out what it is. Yeah. Alexey Esacoff.

And then the next one is that way. Critical onions. Yeah, critical onions. That's like a definitely metal. You think that's a heavy metal band. Yeah, heavy metal band. I think it's probably a podcast or something. Rachel Lang.

Thanks, Rachel. Morgan. Morgan. Hero the pup. Yeah, that's the alternative band. You also, yeah, you think that's a band, an alternative band. I think that somebody got a new puppy. They named it Hero.

Yeah. And they wanted the Patreon in their name. Hero's name? Yeah. Okay. That's what I think. Hero probably likes the intro music. But the band is playing tomorrow night, but we'll go with that.

Hero the pup. Yeah. Kathy Belbin. Hey, Kathy. Dustin Kelly. Thanks, Dustin. Sonia Blasina. Balzina.

Just Diana. Hey. just die. That's all you need sometimes. That one's for you. Lindsay Nading. Hey, Lindsay. Daniel Hardy. Thanks, Daniel. And Juliana Papalegius. And then if we go back into the vault Gibbs. Let's do it. This week we selected Marcella Fletcher. Marcella. Long time Patreon support. We did. We appreciate it. We did. And we appreciate all the support we get. And we had some PayPal support as well. Yeah. Chris and Tanya Nitter. Ooh, a husband and wife team. The team. Yeah. I like that. Jennifer Wormuth. You sure? Wormuth? I think so. Ted Perry. Hey, good old Ted, man. Retired up there in

Denver. Appreciate that. Jennifer Murray. Hey, Jennifer. Karen Washington. Ooh. And Kira Enright. Karen and Kira. Karen and Kira. So appreciate all that support. Love it. We do. Thank you so much. Let's talk a little bit about Unsolved. Yeah, let's do that. The episode this week is on 18-year-old Brooklyn Farthing. Yeah, down in Kentucky. down just south of Lexington, where I go to watch my Wildcats play. Yeah. And she disappeared in 2013. She sure did, yeah.

And that's the episode. You know, what happened to Brooklyn? What was her background? Some rabbit holes. We'll get into theories and rabbit holes and all that. See where we can go with it. All right, Gibbs. Let's get into this True Crime All Time episode.

You ready? Yeah, let's do that. We're talking about Clifford Burns. And this is a, a, true crime that occurs on Christmas Eve. One of the worst times to have something happened. It is. Also back in 2013, same year.

But as we like to do, let's talk a little bit about Clifford Burns background. He was born in 1968 to James and Edith Burns. And the family lived in the town of Nisca Yuna, New York. Nisca Yuna? Yeah, it's upstate New York. I'd never heard of it. So over there just on the other side of Syracuse? You have no idea where it is.

It's where they got to rake their snow off their roofs because it's too much weight when they have the big snowfall. It could collapse your roof. So they have these snow rakes. But that only happens in Niskeuna. No. You're talking about that happens in upstate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, over there by the. What's those? Is it the Catskills Mountains? I have no idea. What's that call? I know that's in New York. Yeah. Did I say it right?

The Catskills? Yeah. Mm-hmm. There you go. Yeah. I do know it's pretty close to the state cap. of Albany. I don't know where Syracuse is in relation to that. It's all up that way. As you push your way towards Toronto, where our friend Kerry lives, we got a good,

good listener that's on social media and she lives in Toronto. I just, that's why I know. It's got to be close to that. Okay. My geography is so precise. Ask me any state. I'll tell you the capital. Not now. Not right now. No. Because I'll go through all 50. Yeah, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me pull up Google. I'll go through all 50. You know what? I think I could get most of them. It won't be much of an episode, but.

I don't know. Maybe we won't do that. I, uh, yeah, I'm pretty good with, with state capitals, but it's like sixth grade. You learn that stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We have to talk about Clifford's childhood, though, Gibbs. Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, we're not talking about a serial killer here, right? We're talking about one incident. But again, this guy had a childhood that was, you know, less than ideal. His father, James mistreated his wife, Cliff's mother horribly. In 1982, he shot her in the chest while they were having an argument inside the family

car. Yeah. Okay. So right now we have a problem with conflict resolution. You get in an argument with your wife. The only way that you know how to deal with it is pull out a handgun and shoot her in the chest. This is how you solve it, son.

And you're foreshadowing because who's. Who's learning from that? So it's how we do it in our family. Clifford Burns. I mean, you're talking about this, your wife, your partner, the mother of your children, and over an argument, you're going to shoot her in the chest. I guess I just don't get it. We do a lot of these episodes.

I don't understand how guys in particular, because obviously we cover a lot of guys that do really bad things, let their emotions take over so much. to the point that they would want to hurt the person they love. You know, whether it's murder or whether it's just, you know, whether it's domestic violence. Just words, man. Verbal abuse is terrible. Emotional. Yeah.

Stress. Things like that. I just don't understand why men or how men can do that. Now, I will say there's a lot of couples. They just like to fight, you know? I don't know why, but, I mean, they like a good fight. And some people just can't. back down either.

That's true. But I think I know what you're saying. There are some couples that fight, maybe it's because of the makeup part is fun. And I don't know. I think some of the, they like to fight, you know, they're not happy. They fight and they just, and then they're, they're okay, you know, but they just. I don't know anybody that has shot his wife in the chest over an argument. No, maybe stabbed.

You know some people that have stabbed their wives? Maybe. Or maybe their wife stabbed them. That's true. Wives are capable as well. Yeah. Now, it's also been reported that James threatened to shoot his wife just a few months after he already shot her. So he shot her. And then he threatened to, it not just threatened. He had the pistol. It was loaded and he pointed it at her. But she said, I love you, baby. I am never going to leave you. Now, I don't know about you, but I think if you've already been shot once, just a few months. prior and you live through that the next time your spouse points a gun at you that's defcon five is that the highest yeah it is right yeah i was never in the military but i've watched a lot of movies i be out i'm out of there of course i i would like to say i would be out of there prior to i got shot in the chest or even prior to but we know and actually was in an email communication this week with a woman

that wanted to kind of follow up on some domestic violence type issues that maybe we've talked about in the past and how it is hard for some women to walk away. Oh, I think so. You know, a lot of that stuff comes with the mental abuse, you know, and making, you know, that other person feel less than they are and they don't feel, they just don't feel they can get away, that they're trapped. And that's, that's tough. That's a tough thing to live with.

It really is. But I think if you were shot in the chest and three months down the road, that same person, your partner wouldn't be partners anymore after I got shot in the chest. Points another gun at you. You know what this person is capable of. We've gone way past the point of threatening. Yeah. I was reading an article the other day about another couple that had a big argument going through divorce. and the guy decided he went he threw asset on her on her face ruined her one eye but uh while he was

in prison they wrote back and forth he comes out they decided to start dating and then they get married again and now they're supposedly happily married after that but can you imagine i mean that's talking about forgiveness i just is no way i don't know how you could do that i mean every situation is different but it's hard on from the outside looking at yeah to say really tough as someone sat in a car and shot me to be like, I'll see you after I got out of hospital. We'll be all right. But in this case, Edith had enough, right? You shot me once.

You're now threatening me with a gun again. So she leaves. She takes off. She takes Cliff and later files for divorce. Now, we fast forward several years later to 1984. Divorce proceedings are, you know, underway. And actually, the day that James is. and Edith were scheduled to appear in court is when everything goes sideways again.

They're not going to make it to court because James Cliff's father went to the house where Edith and Cliff were staying living. He kidnapped her. Yeah. If I can't have you, nobody's going to have you. And the police are called. There's a standoff. He shoots a police officer and later shoots himself.

Cliff Burns was 16 years old. at this point. So you kind of go back and analyze these events, right? We're not talking a lot about his childhood, but I want to hit those highlights of, you know, there's no doubt Gibbs that this guy witnessed rage, anger, abuse from his father towards his mother. Like you mentioned, he's learning. Sure. This is how conflict resolution one-on-one. To deal with your problems. Is how dad did it. And we're going to see a lot of those same exact issues from Cliff and dealing with those things in his life that he just can't handle, right? The rage and the anger, it builds up and eventually it gets the best of him and he handles it

in the worst possible way. Yeah. So I would say if you're listening to us and you were raised thinking that shooting, stabbing, beating was the answer to how to handle conflict with your spouse. It's not. It is definitely not. work on that. Now later on, we're just going to gloss over some highlights on in Cliff's life. He joined the Marines. He was married once, divorced. But I really want to pick up this story because we've got a lot to it here, Gibbs. When Cliff Burns met, then married, his second wife, Patricia in 1998. He was 31 at the time and she was 27. She brought into the marriage three children. And we have to talk about Patricia a little bit as well.

You know, there's a lot of, in the research about the fact that she had a history of bad previous relationships. A lot of her partners battle drug and alcohol problems, which is rough. It is rough. Yeah. It is rough. And we talked about it before. I just think she was a bad picker of men.

Now, what her family has said is that she was a fixer, right? she thought, okay, these are good guys, but they're damaged. Yeah. I can fix them. Yeah. I can make them better. I can do that, you know. What she didn't realize is they've got to make themselves better.

Yeah, you can help, but you can't fix somebody. You can be supportive. You can help. Right. The person has to want to get better. First of all, that's got to be the first step. Yeah. So she had good intentions, but it usually ended up badly for her.

Her father was an alcoholic. And that got so bad at one point that her mother left him, took Patricia and her three siblings away from their father. So I mentioned she brought three kids into the marriage. Cliff and Patricia had two daughters together, Harley and Autumn, during their marriage. And they lived in the same house in Niskeuna that Cliff grew up in. but this relationship was not good. I mean, from the word go, it's been reported that Cliff was abusive to Patricia and to the kids.

You know, there were reports of him beating her over like the smallest thing. Yeah. I mean, you and I always go back to like to sleeping with the enemy. Absolutely. We do. Yeah.

Because there were such small things. Yeah, the dish towels not lined up. Now, I don't know that this was to that extent, but it really talked about like just the smallest things would set him off. And that's all over control, right? It's more about control, you know, showing her that he's controlling the relationship than anything. And it's a good point because I think what we're going to see with Cliff Burns is that when things really go south, you know, when he commits this murder, it's when everything starts to get out of his control. He feels like he has no control. Yeah.

So I do think there's some real validity to what you're saying. Yeah, I think when somebody uses violence, I think when somebody uses and a lot of people on both sides do this where they use, you know, verbal abuse, it's a struggle for power. I mean, you're trying to beat that person down by saying and saying things to them about themselves. That's verbal abuse. And that's where you're trying to shift the power into your arena and take it away from them. There was another report that he pointed a gun at her at one time. Well, who's that? That's his father.

That's what he learned, man. That's how we do things in this family. We abuse the women that we love. Yeah. If need be, we will go to the level of using a firearm. Yeah. I'll show it to her and let her know. I'm not afraid to do it just like dad.

So there's no doubt, right, that there was a large degree of domestic violence in Cliffs' youth. There's no doubt that he displayed a large degree of domestic violence. It's a number of times against his second wife, Patricia. So in 2008, they separated. But this would be an on-off again type of thing over the years. So apparently Cliff would tell Patricia, you know what? Hey, I've changed. I'm going to be a good husband.

But, you know, that's what guys that want power. when they lose it, that's what they say to get that person back. Because they've kind of molded that person at one point. Now they want to get them back. And they're saying that. They're say, look, I'm not that same guy. I don't do that anymore. I'm changed for you.

I'm going to show you. And out of a little bit of guilt, I think the spouse comes back. And then that's when it's kind of like they set it in motion. Now I got you back. I'll string it along for a little bit. Then I'll go back to my normal ways. That's what a lot of them do. Almost all of them do that.

And that's exactly what he does. did, right? For a few weeks at a time, he could be a good husband after Patricia would let him back, but it never lasted. You know, he always reverted back into that cycle of control, domestic violence, physical, mental abuse, all that stuff. Sure. When his stress levels go up, he's going to go back to what he knows best. What makes him feel good? And that's belittling or worse to his spouse. Or hurting. Yeah. Worse would be hurting. Eventually got to be too much for her, and Patricia left for good. She even took out a protection order against her husband, and she told him that she wanted a divorce.

Now, not only did Patricia take out a protection order, but there was another protection order out against Cliff to stay away from her mom and stepdad. So obviously, this guy couldn't get along with anybody. Right. In her family, at least. He was going to try probably to go to their house thinking that she might be there to try to win her back and they didn't want anything to do with it. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick minute to talk about our sponsor BetterHelp. Listen, you just talked about it.

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And you can get help at your own time and at your own pace. It is so convenient. T-Cat listeners can get 10% off your first month by using the discount code T-Cat at betterhelp.com slash T-CAT. So why not get started today? All you have to do is simply fill out a questionnaire, and this helps them assess your needs as well as match you with the right counselor for you. So go to betterhelp.com slash T-Cat and use our promo code T-Cat to get 10% off your first month. So obviously, based on the protection order, Patricia was scared of him, her mom, her stepfather were somewhat, had to be somewhat scared of him. You would have to think the children who

witnessed a lot of this abuse would have would have been somewhat scared by him right patricia moved to an apartment in lake lucerne and everybody went with her all the kids went with her except for one of her daughter's harley harley chose to go with her dad and she's done a number of interviews and talked about the fact that he never laid a finger on her he was nice to her but that didn't last when she moved in with him. It was a matter of months, I think, before she started to see him acting towards her the same way that he had acted towards her mom. And you know what? She didn't stick around. She's like, hey, forget you, man. Yeah, I'm out of here. I'm going to go live with my mom. I'm not putting up with this. And that's what she did. Now, in the middle of all this, and I think it was 2010,

Patricia lost a 15-year-old daughter from a previous marriage. I mentioned she had three children from her previous marriage. This was a daughter named Kristallin. She died one night in her sleep. They did multiple autopsies. And they just couldn't figure out how she died. You know, there was no drugs in her system, no alcohol. They couldn't figure out anything, you know, biological.

And I did read one article, Gibbs, that said, this was the type of death that makes up about one or two percent of what they called unexplainable deaths each year. You always think, right? If you do an autopsy, you'll be able get to what caused someone to die. Right. But no, there are one or two percent of deaths every year that they just cannot figure out. But it has been said that the death of her daughter was probably the turning point.

in Patricia's life. I mentioned this relationship with Cliff was on again, off again. Well, after this, it was off. This was the end, right? She moved to the apartment. She didn't want to have anything to do with him. She even met a new man. So a guy by the name of Ted Bacchus.

But this relationship wouldn't be good either. You know, he was abusive. Apparently he went over to her apartment one night and fired a handgun into the ceiling. What is wrong with these guys? I don't know, Gibbs. The only thing I can think of is that, you know, these guys just didn't learn any form of conflict resolution. They never did as kids, right?

It was always, you know, I'm in the sandbox. And if you don't, if you take my toy or I want that toy and you've got it, I'm just going to punch you in the face and I'm going to take it. That's what I'm going to do. That's kind of what I equated to. They didn't learn maybe from their parents the right way. Well, obviously, Cliff didn't because his dad shot his mom. But this guy did.

You know, he assaulted Patricia, fired a handgun into the ceiling. He was arrested, but apparently only got probation. And we're going to, we're going to hear later because Cliff does some interviews with police after he's arrested. This didn't set well with Cliff Burns. He talks about it a lot. So we're getting closer to the murder. Cliff Burns had been estranged from his daughters for about eight months, at least, leading up to the murder, which we know is going to happen.

December 24th, 2013, Cliff was a self-employed tree trimmer. He's referred to himself as a pro tree climber, which I didn't know you could go professional. You can, man. But I guess if you own a business as a tree climber, you are a professional tree climber. It's not something I would want to do, but...

That's a young guy's job there, man. I'm afraid of height, so I'm out. You get that issue as well. Now, two days before the murder, 14 year old autumn texted her dad she hadn't talked to him in at least eight months but she texted him to wish him merry christmas and to tell him that she loved him but it's the response that she got back from her dad the text was very ominous he texted back i have a special gift coming soon and it's something for everyone to talk about it will be hand delivered on foot not by car it's

It's a very special gift. So I hope all of your friends are there to see it, especially your sister Harley. Now, from a loving father, that wouldn't raise any eyebrows, right? Right. But the family, including Patricia, they were very concerned. After everyone read this text message from Cliff, because they knew what type of guy he was. They knew the anger that he had and they were fearful of what. this text really meant and what he might do. Now, Autumn did respond to that text and she said,

get it together. I know what you think you want to do and believe me, that won't end well. The only reason you feel so bad is because of what happened to your parents. You haven't ever got the time to grieve. That's what his 14 year old wrote back to him. Wow. So that brings us to that fateful night of Christmas Eve 2013, Clifford Burns is now 46 years old. And on this day, he was more than agitated. He was enraged. Like I said, according to him, he had not seen his kids in eight months, but that day, which is so strange to get this call on Christmas Eve, but he got a call about late child support payments from, not from Patricia, but from, from, but from somebody with the county saying, hey, you're behind. If you don't get current, we're going to put an arrest

warrant out for you. This is on Christmas Eve. He gets this. Patricia was at her apartment, preparing for a big Christmas dinner the next day. You know, she had planned to have the, all the kids were going to be there, her mother and stepfather were going to be there. But that night, Cliff showed up at Patricia's Lake Luzerne apartment. He was, dressed in camouflage. He was wearing a ski mask covering his face, and he burst through the door of her apartment and began attacking her in the kitchen. So a couple of her daughters were there. Autumn was there and Megan was there. Megan was one of her daughters from her previous marriage. She was older. I think she was about maybe 22 years old at the time. Okay. She tried to protect her

mother as Cliff began stabbing Patricia. Now, she didn't know it was Cliff at first. This guy had a ski mask on. But in the act of trying to protect her mother, she suffered some very serious knife wounds in the process. But the other thing that happened in the struggle, his mask came off. And obviously, they knew. Sure. As soon as the mask came off. Who it was. Who it was. So after the attack, he took off, ran out of the house, got into his car, and sped away. Autumn was 14 years old. Autumn was his daughter. And she was the one that called 911.

And some of the descriptions Gibbs of this call, they're just heartbreaking. You know, she said to the 911 operator, my mother is dying. Please help, please help. Oh, God, please. Oh, God, please help my mother. Help me. Help me. Help me.

she was hysterical, right? She had just witnessed her father brutally stabbing her mother. And you can hear her through the phone tell her mom. You're strong. You can do this mom. I know you can. Mom, please stay with me. So she's hysterical, but she's trying to calm her mom down as well. And the dispatcher does a good job. She calms autumn down at least enough to be able to give her some instructions, you know, how to apply pressure to her mom's wounds. And Autumn's still talking. She's saying she's bleeding. I have blood all over me. And my sister's bleeding. She's going to die too. But the one thing that she's able to do on this call is tell the operator who did this to her mother. There was no doubt. It was her father, Cliff Burns. And then you hear her say, hold on, mommy, please. She's dying. I need help. You have to help us.

she's the last thing I have. Like I said, I mean, just imagine that scene in your head, a 14-year-old girl trying to care for her mom. Her older sister is bleeding, has some pretty serious wounds herself. So eventually emergency personnel arrive on scene. They take Patricia to Glen Falls Hospital, but they couldn't do anything to save her. Gibbs, she dies. She received almost 30 stab wounds.

And they had to take Megan to the hospital. the hospital as well. She was treated. And I mentioned she, her wounds were pretty severe too. Cliff cut her arms so badly that it was said some of the wounds were down to the bone. That's, that's brutal, man. So much anger. That you're, you're ripping through flesh and hitting bone with your knife. That's just so much anger, man. I'm good with a knife. I'm telling you, that's a lot of anger. Well, not to mention that, some of these were so close. close to hitting arteries. Right.

That she was lucky to survive. That's what doctors says. Extremely lucky. But the thing about this case, Gems, it's not a who done it. Right. Everybody knows who committed this murder is Cliff Burns. Yeah. And police are looking for him right away.

And it doesn't take them long to find him, but it's where they find him that's so strange. He's parked in the sheriff's office parking lot. So they arrest him. But when they catch up to him, when they start talking to him in the car, apparently he said to the police officer, I've done a bad thing. I need to go to jail. So they take him into custody. They begin to question him.

And this is why I mentioned, right? This is all on tape. It's five, six, seven hours worth of tape out there that you can listen to. Most of the time, it's Cliff Burns talking about the injustices that. that he perceived to have been committed against him, having to pay child support, not making enough money, not being able to see his kids. He talks a lot about this Ted Bacchus guy that was his wife's boyfriend that shot the, got arrested for shooting the gun.

But he also puts his wife down at almost every chance. Yeah, which is terrible. I mean, he says the most heinous things about her, calls her a whore and a stripper and probably said that stuff to her face too. It probably did. You know, that's there. I mean, man, if you're married to somebody and he's calling you a whore, what are you doing sitting there with him?

Now, I've been, I've been around some guys who had a mouth on him. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone quite like Cliff Burns. He says the F word about every third word. And it's really hard to say the F word five, six, seven times in one sentence. But somehow this guy pulls it off. I mean, so just a disclaimer right up front. Sure. The language is going to be a lot rougher than probably what you're used to on

TrueCom all time. This guy makes Andrew Dice Clay look like Mr. Rogers. I'm not saying some. I used to like Andrew Dice Clay back in the day. Yeah. You know, he's been in some pretty good movies lately, not as his raunchy self, but just playing some good roles where he plays that older

like an older Italian guy and he's actually pulling off he's been in some really good movies lately You're gonna name one or you're just gonna let that I was trying to think of the name of the movie especially the one I'd just seen Not too long ago You were probably hoping I wouldn't ask you that

Yeah but it was I mean he actually did really well I was really surprised I saw him in something not too long ago Yeah and I'm struggling to think of it as well But it was good maybe it was You know what he did one with the movie about Queen. He played...

Oh, was he in that? I haven't seen that. Bohemian Rhapsody? Yeah, he played the... The girlfriend, then wife, the father. Or stepfather or father, I can't remember which of role. But he did a really good job in that. No, I just thought of the one that I was thinking of.

It was a Star is born. He played Lady Gaga's father and a Star is born. I don't know if you've seen it. Oh, that's what it is. Oh, that's the one you're thinking of? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, not queen.

It was the Stars was born. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We saw both of those movies pretty close to each other. That's why I think I got mixed up. It was Starz-I-Born. I was going to say, that's pretty, that's something else. If he was in both of those, because those were both.

I was wrong. But he did a really good job. I thought he was good. Yeah, I liked it. So we're going to play some pieces of this interview. And then, you know, we'll talk about them. But again, language, disclaimer, but you have to, first of all, I couldn't, I don't even think I could edit this out if I wanted to.

And, and obviously we're playing snippets of what, Oh, it's fun. Let it roll. What is about six or seven hours. Now, as the interview starts, he sounds pretty, he's pretty peaceful. A lot of things to talk about. And I want to talk to somebody I can fucking talk to and trust.

You seem like the guy. Can you talk to my, I'm going to have one of my investigators coming in and talk to you, Clucker. All right. They're all very reasonable people. No, they're not reasonable here.

Well, the investigator, that comes in and talk to you. I sure he's going to be reasonable. I'll take the cup off your left hand. I love my daughters. I haven't seen him in fucking eight months because of the two four doors. You know it's Christmas time when is a fucking man I snapped. I'm done. Looker, I'm going to switch this around with it. Why didn't you guys just fucking put a bullet in my head? I tell you if you wanted that.

Looker, we don't want to hurt anybody. I don't want me either. Do you understand what a man goes to your officer? Just don't straighten your hand up. I spent 250. week on child support and couldn't see my kids because she lonely her and teddy back has put a court order against me today family court calls up my lawyer and says there's a warrant out for my arrest for missing two payments that mill the winter i have nothing to live for i'm living in a one room a fucking barb and she took everything for me on me so all right so you probably got what i meant

about the f word there but he's not too upset at this point and i want to point that out because it gets much much worse right His demeanor changes throughout this seven hour interview. Now, that was kind of hard because in the, so you have to picture this. He's sitting next to a table and a chair. And what you could hear was the officer uncuffing him and cuffing him to the table. There was like, there's like this big metal rod on the table and one of his hands is cuffed. But it's not going to keep him from trying to get at these police officers later on.

Yeah. He's just, you can tell he's frustrated with the way that this, the way he perceives the system working against him. Yeah. And that's, it's why I, I called through seven hours of this audio to try to find the right clips that really kind of get to what he thinks is the root of the problem. And then, you know, he starts to get into more of what he's angry about, what he's resentful about. Well, what I'm going to tell you what happened. My ex-wife put a court order against me teddy

back. It went over in the house and shot the fucking house up with a gun and got all misdemeanors. It was an apartment complex with kids in it. And unregistered illegal handgun and it gets all misdemeanors. That's what I wanted to do to her face. Right up with a fucking knife. She took my kids away from me everything I fucking have today. I get a fucking call from my lawyer saying they're coming with a warrant for my arrest or missing two childs of war payments. I stayed away. my kids in eight months, it's fucking Christmas. I am the fucking devil. Where's your kids now?

They're home. I don't know where to fuck they are. I haven't seen them in eight months. When this bra can do this on Christmas, it was my last stride rather live in prison. Do you know when a woman snaps you and keeps your kids away from it? What it does to a man? That you work and pay for your kids your whole fucking life.

Then the Bacchus brothers rigged the charges when the fucking guy goes over and shoots my old lady's house up and beats the fuck out of her, and he gets misdemeanors. You know what happened up there. All misdemeanors, nine of them when he shot the house up with an unregistered handgun. Do you know who Teddy Bacchus is? I know who is.

If I ever could get my hands on him, I'd fucking kill him. You have that. So the agitation level is growing. Sure. A little bit. I also think he slipped up a couple of times there. At one point talked about taking a knife to his wife's face. And then when the officer asked him, you know, did he see a little?

his kids where is it or his kids at he said at home and then really quickly he said i don't know where they're at right i don't know if you if you caught it or not but it was it was i think a pretty big slip up now one point in the interview gibbs he talks about going full-blown rambo on this entire town and you remember rambo man he had that that big ass knife like i carry just putting that out there yeah so you guys you deal with weapons every day I had AK-47s, AR-15s at my disposal. I could have made this a war. You want to know where my mindset was?

Take her out. Spray-paint the building. Let's play back his boys. And take them in the mountains. You would have to drop a... You're platoon in for me. A platoon, brothers. I kept the war.

I came here and did the right thing. I turned myself in. I'll go to prison. I'm done. I threw my life away tonight. Is she dead? I have... I just came to work.

You know what? I didn't want to kill her. I got emotional when my children are there. Got emotional by hurting them too. But he said, what did he say? I didn't want to kill her. Yeah. Now, he's not going to confess, and I should have said this up front.

He's not going to confess during this whole seven hours. But he's going to say these little things. And I think they're kind of slip-ups. Yeah. As he's telling his story. Right. as he's telling his his story. How he was wrong by his wife and his, uh, his ex-wife and his, uh, her boyfriend and, uh, boyfriend's, uh, brother.

Yeah. That, that's probably the closest that he comes in the entire thing to admitting what he really did. Yeah. Then in the next clip, you can hear more anger coming out as they're really trying to question him about what happened that night. I fucking lost it. I don't even know how to fuck I got up here. I didn't got no gas in my fucking car. I'm down to no money. I got no fucking food. I don't know what she's wanted me to do. And I got a lady behind me on a fucking Christmas Eve. And I don't even see the kids. I just fucking pay.

I can't take it. Put me in the jail. So I'll lock it ever, I don't care no more. I lost everything as a man. I don't even know what the fuck I did tonight. I'm on my way to the Warren Chair. I'm going to file a petition. I'm just lost. I don't even fucking know. Cliff, you told me you went to see your kids. Do you get to see him tonight? I didn't even know. I didn't see my kids. Why is that, Cliff? Because the fucking broad, don't let me see him. She took me out of her life in a court order for another man and I lost everything. I just pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, pay. I don't go out. I'm scared to go out of my house. Ask anybody in apartment building. I never leave unless I get a business pull and don't make money. I give up. I give up. So we have that. So we have some anger issues.

Yeah. You can hear him rattling these handcuffs, right? And at the very end, he jumps up and just about flips the whole table, like knocks over a computer and... Yeah. He's rage. He gets very... This 5, 6, 7, however long it is, our interview, I mean, it goes from him being racist as all get out. Yeah.

I didn't put any of that in here. He's very racist. He says some unbelievably bad things about people. certain very specific people right but you know at some points he's very jovial with with the police and he talks about the fact that hey you know he's irish they're irish they should have each other's backs he's almost playing around you can tell you know he's living through this story though you can tell he's he's upset he's angry because he lost his wife to another man right no no man wants to lose his wife or his girlfriend to another man but he's living it and he and it's

because he doesn't see that he did anything wrong to lose her. That's the problem. Well, so he goes from jovial to angry. At certain points, he's crying. Yeah. And then it just, it flips again. And then he's angry.

But it's really seven hours or however long it is of this. Every time they ask him about that night specifically, all he does is go back and say, you know, this lady at the county said she was going to put me in jail. My wife won't let me see my kids. This backist guy got off when he should have went to prison. Right.

He goes just back to those things every time. I don't have no money. I can't eat. I can't do anything. But they keep trying. The police officers keep trying to get him to talk about what happened that night, but he doesn't want to. What happened tonight over there? Over where?

You keep asking me that. What happened up there? I don't know what the fuck happened. I'd like to fuck out. Is there when you got there? I couldn't tell you nothing. I wanted to see my old lady and tell her. I want to see my fucking kids.

Did she meet the door? Mm-hmm. She would let you in? Listen, I want to go to a jail cell. I don't want to sit here no more. All right. You asked me another question about when I got there. I'm going to spit on you.

All right? Don't ask me again. Well, he's done. Gibbs, you asked me another question about that. I'm going to spit on you from here. Yeah. This guy would have, no doubt in my mind. Oh, I think he would have for sure.

He would have spit on these people. He has nothing to lose at this point. No, and at certain points, if he wasn't handcuffed, he would have fought everyone in that room. He was so angry. He was coming over that table. He would have for sure. But there was one part in there in particular where he admits going over that night to talk to his wife about wanting to see the kids.

And the police officer does a really quick follow-up question. and says, did she meet you at the door? And it was either a, it was like a, mm-mm, mm-hmm. Right. It sounded almost like a, uh-huh, but like a real truncated one. Slowly putting the story together. Yeah. But they never really get him to admit to anything. Every time they get to a certain point, he just says either he doesn't want to talk about it or he goes back and starts talking about all the things he's already talked about. But at the end of the interview, and this is the last clip I want to play, Byrne says this.

Yeah, so death to us part. I mean, so it's death to us part, not murder till we part. It's death till we part. It's death do us part. Or death do us part. Isn't that what it is? Death till we part. I don't know.

But all I know is it's not murder. You know, it's if you die of natural causes, we part. It's not, I'm going to force the death upon you. Now, see, okay, no, you're right. I'm not disagreeing with you. But the way that I took it was that he's not going to come out and say that he killed her. But he's saying, what is the last thing that they say? And if it's a death, do we part, guess what?

And he says baby at the end of it. Yeah, baby doll. Yeah, baby doll. So me, for me, reading between the lines, he's saying, yeah, I did this. Put me in a cell, lock me away. Why does he keep saying that? He's admitting it without wanting to come out and say it. Right.

Now, one of the guards in the county jail where Burns was held, he would later on say that Cliff Burns threatened everyone in that place on a daily basis. He said that Burns told him directly, I'll cut your throat, take out your tongue, and map the floor with your blood. That's extremely specific. It is. That's not I'm going to hurt you. No.

I'm going to take your tongue. tongue out and I'm going to mop the floor with it. It's an angry guy. Now, I would think, Gibbs, I've never had any type of job like this, but as any type of guard, right, in a, whether it was a county jail or a prison or whatever, you need to have your head on a swivel. Yeah. At all times.

But I would think after a man like Cliff Byrne says that he's going to cut out your tongue and do some mopping. Mopping with it. you would be on what extra special secret double duty swivel something like that you'd be paying a lot of attention you got one angry elf on your hands yeah exactly so the trial of clifford burns was scheduled for june 16th 2014 and his lawyers leading up to the trial they were weighing all kinds of different options about how to defend him at trial one thing that they were thinking about using was the defense of extreme emotional disturbance.

But they would never get to this point because in April of 2014, Clifford Burns pleaded guilty to second degree murder in the stabbing death of his wife. So he's not willing to admit that he did it during all these interviews, but eventually as the trial's coming closer, he does. And in front of the judge, he admitted that he went into a rage and he stabbed Patricia. with the intent to kill her. But what makes it even worse, Gibbs,

when we said this up front, is his admission that he did this in front of his daughters. She's absolutely terrible. I mean, it's all terrible, but. And, you know, we talked about it. How can a man ever hurt his wife, for one thing? Whether you have a good relationship or it's in the shitter, I don't care.

How, but then, second, how in the hell can a man do something like that in front of him? of his children. You know, I don't know, but I mean, I've, I've heard personal accounts of, you know, husbands screaming at their top of her lungs to their wives with the worst possible things you could ever say about that person in front of their children. In front of their kids, you know, it's one thing just to say it to your spouse. Which you shouldn't do anyway.

But to say it in front of your own kids, you know, this is their mom you're talking about. How do you even do that? And how do you walk away feeling good about yourself? And how do you ever forgive somebody for saying that stuff? I hear it way too often. And it's just, man, it just shocks me how brutal people can be, which is words, let alone. You know, we know what people can do with their hands, too. Yeah.

And it's sad. But now, it did take Cliff a little while to get to that point where he was willing to admit that. Initially, he tried to say that he didn't do it on purpose. But when the judge pressed him on it, he admitted. that he took a knife with him that night with the intention that his wife was going to die. Now, we're going to talk about in a minute. He didn't use the knife that he took with him. But the judge asked him, in that last minute, when you got on top of her, that's when you intended to kill her. And Cliff Burns replied, yes, sir. So as part of the plea deal, Burns was sentenced to

23 years to life in prison. But that wasn't all. He was also ordered to pay. He was also ordered to pay restitution to his daughter Megan, who suffered injuries to her arm, we talked about, while she was trying to help protect her mother. So to do this, he signed over a piece of property that he owned. But we have to talk about this plea deal. You know, you and I don't like some of these plea deals that come about. Now, the family agreed to this one. They consented to it.

Number one, because it eliminated the trial, which certainly would have forced the daughters to testify. They didn't want that. And I don't say this a lot, but I really think this was the best move in this case because it only shaved two years off. The mandatory sentence was, which was 25 years to life. So he gets 23 years to life instead of 25 years to life. And the two girls don't have to go through and the family doesn't have to go through what would have been recounting a horrible trial. You don't want them to hear a lot. So I actually, in reading that, I liked what they did there. His sentencing hearing occurred in September, and it was emotionally charged, as you can

imagine. Some of the children gave statements before the judge handed down the sentence. Megan was very emotional. And speaking about the impact of her mother's death, she told the court, what Cliff really took for me that Christmas Eve was my heart. Harley also gave a very emotional statement. And she talked directly to her father and said, you didn't think about your own children. And she talked about how, you know, she was forced to become an adult very quickly after her mother's death.

She said, what is a 15 year old girl supposed to do without her mother? I mean, can you imagine your own kids saying something to you like this after, you know, you've done something horrific? I just can't imagine it. Now, Burns had a new attorney by the time this sentencing hearing came up, a different attorney than the one that was defending him, you know, up until that plea agreement. And this new attorney argued that Cliff Burns should be allowed to withdraw his guilty plea. He tried to argue that Burns had ineffective counsel at trial and that the district attorney had coached Burns' daughters into, urging him to plead guilty. And I kind of, I mentioned this just a little bit ago, but the attorney argued that the knife

that killed Patricia was not the knife that Cliff Burns brought with him to the apartment that night. So I think Gibbs with this, he's trying to argue intent. Yeah, he brought a knife with him, but he didn't use that knife to kill Patricia because he really didn't intend to kill her. But things escalated. He ended up stabbing her with one of her own kids. kitchen knives. This is his argument. I don't know. I'm not buying it. To me, it doesn't matter.

He killed her. Of course. And he got second degree murder anyway. But the DA was ready for this. They probably, you know, they planned on his defense counsel having an argument. And she brought out the ominous text message exchange between Burns and his daughter that happened two days before the murder, which basically, I mean, should solidify her case. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't. say that he's going to come murder anybody. But it's, it's pretty ominous coming from a man like him. But that wasn't it.

She also offered up evidence of a note that was found in Burns home when they searched it late on Christmas Eve. And the note was basically a handwritten will detailing out that his daughters were to get his remaining possessions. Meaning that he really met this to be a. murder, suicide. Or he knew he wasn't coming back. Or he wasn't coming.

Well, I mean. One way or the other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right.

Either he was going to take care of himself or he's hoping the police would. Or there was a chance he would get killed in the shootout or something. That's pretty strange timing, right? That you're going to leave a note detailing who should get what right before you plan to go see your wife dressed in camo carrying a knife. Yeah. Now his defense team would argue. that he left the note because he knew he was going to get arrested because he was going to

violate the protection order. Well, that's not why you leave a, I mean, but the note was basically a will. Right. You could, couldn't you write a will in prison? Yeah. I mean, you didn't need to write a will. If you didn't think you were going to die by killing yourself or making sure you got killed by, you know, suicide by, by police.

Or even if there was a chance. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. So after all this, the judge handed down burns a. sentence of 23 years to life. But on top of that, he issued a permanent protection order, barring Burns from ever contacting his two daughters, Harley and Autumn, and his stepdaughter Megan. Burns wasn't happy about this. He got fiery with the judge after hearing this part of the

sentence. And the judge said this to him, quote, you lost all custodial rights by committing outrageous abuse of your children and by murdering their mother. I couldn't agree more with that statement. Yeah, no, I agree. You know, and it needed to be said. He needed to hear that, you know, he's always pushing on everybody. Poor me, poor me. You did this, this, she did this, that, this, this.

You know, I'm just a product of the environment I was forced in. So the judge laid it out. Let him know. This is why you're not going to see your kids. Now, the judge did say that, his two daughters, Harley and Autumn, they could apply to have this order modified if they wanted to when they turned 18. And who knows? Maybe maybe they do. Maybe one of them will. Who knows? I think they're probably pretty scarred. Oh, I'm sure they are. Now, I have seen some interviews

with Harley especially where she said, you know what, still my dad. Yeah. He did he did horrible things, but he's still my dad. Yeah. So there you go. So you might go. visit, you know, she might say, even though all this was terrible, very terrible, I still want to get to know the other part of them, because, like you said, he's, I got half of him in me. Be tough. It would be tough, you know, and I seen in some stories that, you know, Clifford, he's just not, he's not apologetic about anything he did. No, he wasn't at the trial, he wasn't at the sentencing, he's still not now. And I think in his mind, he thinks that he went there to, to get some resolution to this problem that was put on to him.

And he didn't expect it to go as far as it did in his head, but it did. And so now he's, well, am I apologizing. Yeah, I think you're probably right in the fact that that's what he wants to believe. And maybe that is the truth. I don't know. Or maybe he really did set off for that house knowing that he was going to commit a murder. All you have to do is listen to the tapes. I mean, even if you just listen to what we played, which is a small portion of the seven hours, right? But if you listen to that, you can see,

he definitely has anger management issues. I mean, he can go from, big time. He can go from zero to 10 extremely fast. And I don't mean 10, like, he's coming across the table. And if he could, he would rip those handcuffs off. Yeah, you only, you only heard it once, I think. It probably happened 10, 15, 20 times. Yeah. where he jumped up, yanked his arm as hard as he could, kept knocking the computers off the table. Called these guys, called these police every name in the book. Yeah. And his ex knew this.

That's why she got away from him because she's lived it before and she finally had enough, you know. And got the protection orders and all that stuff. Exactly. But the other thing is, so not only was he unapologetic, he didn't say a word at the sentencing hearing. So this is after his own daughter stood up and said, you know, these things, he didn't apologize. He didn't say anything to them. And I found that very strange. Yeah, I think you would have maybe at least looked at them in the eyes and said, I'm sorry this happened.

Yeah. Never met this to happen. Didn't mean, you know, and I'm sorry. I'm never going to see you again. You know, I love you guys. I hope that one day you forgive me, whatever, and move on. Nothing. Nothing. Just cold. And people are like that, man. People can just emotionally just shut off and be cold.

And I think this guy was a lot of things like that. He was cold. He was angry. He was, I think he was just a mean guy, too, in some form or fashion. But that is it. That's the story of Clifford Burns and the murder of his wife, Patricia Burns. Yeah. We'll get some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yeah, let's hear those. Just get something positive, man. Hey Mike and Gidley, this is shut down in Memphis again. It's Shelby Farms Park in Memphis, the largest urban park in the United States, 4,000 acres. Come out here walking my dog for an hour and listen to you guys. And I was just thinking this would be a perfect place to hide a body. And so when I walk around, I'm always looking in the weeds, sort of eyeball on everything, to see if there's a handstick and you guys got me all freaked out now.

Anyway, it's November, December 6th. I want to wish you and all your listeners, happy holiday and happy new year, and keep your own time ticking, guys. Bye-bye. All right, we always like to hear from Shep. I think he's casing the area. He's casing it looking for spots.

Now, I think, and we hear this all the time from people, Gibbs, how listening to true crime, and whether it's us in particular or, you know, another true crime podcast, it makes people a little more aware. You said, keep your head on a swivel. Right. Of their surroundings. And it makes them think a little bit more.

Might scare them from time to time. But you know what? Being a little bit scared every now and then is not a bad thing. If it makes you be more cautious. I think the, I think the worst thing that can happen is you're just walking wherever and you're oblivious to your surroundings. Yeah. You know, I get on my kids all the time about that, those damn smartphones, right? I talk about that. Now they got those AirPods, the Apple headphones.

Oh, yeah. You can't hear nothing. No. I know. You know, to get them, you have to call them on their cell phone. Yeah. In the house. Yeah, I got people that work for me at the office and I'll be walking up to them, having a conversation. And I'm waiting for a response. I'm like, and, and then I realized have those you can't see you can't see them and then I realize it's what they got hi my name is Julie and I've been binge watching

for about two two and a half weeks and from the minute you started to where I'm at today you guys have got so much better and the play on each other is awesome and your

topics are excuse me to die four. All right. You have a great day and keep your own time ticking. So clearly she found us on Gibby TV where she's been watching. She's been watching us. Yeah, but you know, I've heard that before. And I would agree with her, Gibbs. When I go back and listen to some of those first episodes, they're a little painful. But like with anything, you know, when you're starting out, we didn't know how to podcast. We'd never done a podcast. And we weren't sitting across from each other. We were on Skype and I was sitting at my dining room table on my iPhone and you were here, you know. So I think

we have come a long way, but I appreciate that. Hey guys, this is Andrew. I live down in the Cincinnati Greater area. Well, it's an episode, and I'm sure you guys know about him, but from what I've heard, he's a very killer. So I just would love to get your guys' take on it. see what you think about it. I think it would be a really good episode and it is definitely interesting enough. But like I said, big fans, uh, kind of close by you guys. So I enjoy listening. Uh, thanks for everything you guys too. Keep your own time ticket. All right. We appreciate that, Andrew. And he is definitely on the list. With that one, Gibbs, I've always thought it was strange that with your last name being Edwards, you would name your son Edward. Yeah. I just always found that strange.

It is strange. It'd be like naming you Michael, Michael. Or be Fergus Ferguson. Well, that would have been kind of cool, though. That would be a cool. I would have thought you from England, though. Scotland, Fergus. Okay. Whatever, play Great Britain.

Okay. But I think... United Kingdom. I was going to say. Your geography is spot on. It is spot on. It is spot on. So he's just down the road, man.

So maybe he'll... Yeah, he's close. We have that big meetup. He'll pop on up. Maybe. Hi, guys. Hi. Okay.

Of course, I talked before the beat. Anyways, hi guys. I want to say it's about a month and a half. I listen to your podcast and it's by far the best podcast I've heard probably ever also because I'm a big, big fan of true crime. I've always been a fan of true crime and this just meets all the prerequisites. It's so detailed. You can tell that there's so much work behind it. And so congratulations really for such a good podcast. You guys are both really funny. You compensate for each other. I mean, you fit so well. The chemistry is perfect. So it's very hard for me to say I'm team anything. I'm team both of you for sure.

One wouldn't work as well without the other, I'm sure of it. Oh, by the way, I call from Italy. I don't know if you have many listeners from Italy. But another great thing your podcast does for me is it keeps my English alive whilst I live here. I'm Italian, but it allows me to keep me to keep you. keep on listening to something in English, not forget the language. So thank you so much. And please keep doing what you do because it just made everything better when my drive to work is now pleasurable, like 100% great.

And I have like dead moments at work and I need something to keep me awake. It's just your podcast that turns to. So please, please don't stop and keep your own time picking. Bye. So I like to say that my English was not as very good either until I started doing the podcast. and my uh my english got better and my italiano i got the worse so her english was so good that to be honest with you when i first started listening to that i had no idea she was from another country no if anything i thought maybe maybe a little Scottish in there maybe but then she said

italy i heard an accent yeah but i didn't know where it was from i like how she says you we compensate each other and you need to compensate me more i don't think that's that That's what she said. I need more compensation. I don't think she said that word at all. All right, Gibbs. So mailbag. Yeah, let's do the mailbag.

Big week in the mailback. Did we? It was almost like a real true Christmas slash festivist miracle, Gibbs. We got a bunch of beef jerky. Ooh, you like beef jerky. Oh, I like beef jerky. But I don't know if I ever get to see all the beef jerky it comes in

because you control the whole mail. This is going to be like the chair thing. So I was like, do you open it up and go, man, that's a, that's my favorite beef jerky. So I take that out. Yeah, and you're like, yeah, we got some beef jerky, but I knew you wouldn't want that. But we got, we got some really interesting, uh, beef jerky. Gary Riley, I believe it was Gary Riley who sent it from Buck Thornton's World of Jerky. Ooh, there's a world of jerky.

There is. We got some ostrich, finison, alligator and buffalo beef jerky. That's good stuff, man. We got to try that. And lean, too. And then Christine Peterson from the UK, Patreon, I remember that name from last week. She sent us a whole box of this People's Choice small batch jerky that's handmade in Los Angeles, California. I like to see the hands that make it.

Well, I'm sure they've washed and are wearing gloves. I feel pretty comfortable. It's not going to stop us anyway. We need a beef jerky sponsor. That's for sure. We too need a, you know, if you work for a beef jerky company and you want to, you want to, to advertise. Hit us up. Hit us up. And then Mitch Lowness, right, I talked about him in his wife signing him up for Patreon. He actually sent in a Harley Chip from up in Nova Scotia. Really?

Yeah. Well, that's cool. Thank all of you. Yeah. Appreciate that. Appreciate that. All right, Gibbs. And wrapping up the show, let's just say again, we want to wish everybody, happy holidays. Absolutely. All of that. And, you know, there'll be an episode out next week, but we're taking the week off. and we'll be back with a brand new episode in two weeks. Yeah. So just enjoy the holidays no matter what you're doing. If you're by yourself, like I said earlier, binge something on TV or a bench a podcast,

and everything will be just fine. All right. So that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.