True Crime All The Time - Coral Watts

Episode Date: March 12, 2018

Coral Watts murdered at least 22 women in the 1970s and 1980s. But authorities believe the number could top 100 which would make Watts the most prolific serial killer in US history. Watts began murdering in Michigan before moving down to Texas to continue his murderous ways.Join MIke and Gibby as they discuss Coral Watts who many say was the personification of evil. Hear about his childhood and his documented battles with mental illness. But the big question to answer is what was behind his motivation to attack and murder women. You have to listen to find out!You can help support show by going to patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact and merchandise informationPlease support our sponsor Hunt A Killer. Visit huntakiller.com/tcatt and use the promo code tcatt to get a 15% discountCredits:Writing/Research - Maggie DobschuetzSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 69 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? Man, I'm doing good. How about you, Mr. Kata? Mr. Kata. Ooh. Ooh.

Ooh. Mr. Kata. I'm doing great, man. Yeah. I would be doing better if it wasn't so frigging cold here. It's a little chilly. In Ohio. Yeah.

Got up this morning to go to work. The truck said 24 degrees. I know. That's not right, man. That's when I got to put a shirt on, you know. Give a. Give a. All right, man.

We got some new Patreon supporters. Let's get right into it. We had Claudia Veach jumped out at our highest level. Awesome. Thank you. Pamela Coburn jumped up to our highest level. Like rooster coburn? I think that's cogburn.

Oh, okay. Whatever. There is an actor named, I think, James Coburn. Yeah. Is that where you're trying to get? I don't know. Okay. Just checking.

Sure. But Pamela's been a supporter, but actually raised her support to our highest level. So she gets a gold star shout out for that. Absolutely. Thank you. We had Jan Bornhouser. Yeah. Jeff Holt.

Sheila Peralt? Like from Sheila E? Like, O.O. Sheila? Maybe. You think this is actually Sheila E? Probably not, but you know. You're hoping? Yeah, we're cool.

I did see on social media on Twitter at Chrissy Teigen might be a T-Cat. Really? Yeah. Get her and John Legend. You know, I love me some John Legend. When they swing in town, you know, we can go over and just have a little meetup. I like John Legend a lot. Got some song ideals for them.

You got some ideas too? Yeah, those two. You get some ideals you're going to give you. I got both of them. We had Tina Coughlin, Mark McKinnon, Kimberly Pavone. Pravonee or provone Provonee I like Pavonee

because I knew you'd say it in your Mario accent Yeah thank you Sean Tomlinson Yeah Ken Fernandez Fernandez Allison Roma Like Roma tomato

Exactly like that Or Tony Romo Yeah exactly like that Yeah Mercedes Ferguson Really No relation It's like a high-end Ferguson

That's yeah It's like you got you And then you got the Mercedes version Which is like a much classier. Right. I'm the pickup truck, Ferguson.

This is Mercedes. Yeah. Ferguson. Different zip coats. Yeah, definitely. And then if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Stacy Angel. Stacey's been with us a long time.

Just want to sing that Johnny Angel song, but just replaced Johnny with Stacy. Won't you give us a little bar of it? I don't want to do that to the people. Oh, they want you to so badly. They do. They be hooked. But Stacy's not only been a long time support.

She's one of our biggest supporters. And so have to give her a huge shout out and a lot of thanks. And the same to all of our new Patreon supporters. Yeah. And the ones that continue to support us month after month. It's amazing. Really appreciate it. I have to give a special shout out correction to Carter Somerville.

I told you. You never told me. I was looking at you like, you sure? and you just kept on going. No, you never looked at me. I made eye contact. Carter is a woman. Yes, very much so.

And I mistakenly said him or he or his. I think he said it a few different ways. I may have. Yeah. But Carter is a huge supporter of not only true crime all the time, but criminology. Can't think her enough. I did apologize on Facebook. Carter, we appreciate you.

But don't act like you tried to jump in and save the day. You know better. You know. And Gibbs, we had a lot of. of support on PayPal as well. We had Nicole McAnally. What was that? Macanally. Macanally. Amanda Foster. Yeah. Emily Brower. And then our good friend Samantha S. Oh, Samantha. You're killing me. You literally. She never stops giving. She doesn't, man. She is absolutely amazing. All right. So big shout out to Maggie for the writing and the research.

Thanks, Max. Much appreciated. And then just want to touch on true crime all the time, unsolved. Yeah. After you're done listening to this episode, make sure you jump over and check it out. This week we're doing the Tylenol murders. So we're going back to 82. Yeah. This was a big thing. It's a different spin on honey. I got a headache. Yeah. I mean, this was cyanide poisoning. It was all over the news. Caused mass hysteria. And it's going to be, it's a good episode. It's a good episode. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into Coral Watts? What's that? jacket behind you, the one that says wild hogs on it. Wild hogs? Yeah. My leather motorcycle jacket? I do not have a wild hogs jacket. I do not have a sons of anarchy vest, although I love that show.

You buy a new Harley. I did buy a new Harley. Now you think you're some badass biker. I do not think I'm a badass biker. I'm an middle-aged man who bought a Harley. That is it. I heard it. You went up to the buckle store and got you some new jeans.

to ride your motorcycle. I did not buy a pair of buckles jeans. You're going through a little midlife crisis, man. Not like that. I'm not. All right, man. Let's get into Coral Watts. Yeah, this is good.

And this guy, I'm telling you, you know, we've had a run here last couple weeks of some pretty prolific serial killers. Yeah. This guy Gibbs murdered women in the late 70s, early 80s. And I don't think there's any way to know. know the real number. It's at least 22. Yeah. But there are thoughts that police have that it could be as many as a hundred. Isn't that shocking, man? And if it is, it would make him the most prolific serial killer in United States history. Yeah. But regardless, whatever the number is, this guy was a bad dude. No doubt about it. Now, his real name is Carl, but he went by Coral. So

Carl Coral Eugene Watts was born at Fort Hood, November 7th, 1953. His father was Richard Eugene Watts and his mother was Dorothy May Young. So born at Fort Hood, at the time he was born. His dad was enlisted in the Army as a private first class. And his mother was a kindergarten teacher. Oh, really? Yeah. Sounds like a sweet, innocent woman.

Yeah. We have a lot of listeners that are kindergarten. kindergarten teachers. Yeah, we do. We've heard that. Yeah. They have to listen to a little true crime, man. That is the only way they can get through.

The insanity that they go through. Of dealing with all the kids. Yeah. We actually have a lot of teachers that listen to the show. Now, his mother would leave his father in 1955. So he's only two years old, give or take. And they would move to Inkster, Michigan. Inkster.

Inkster. and of course he goes with her but his mom's working as a teacher like we talked about so he actually spent a lot of his time with his maternal grandmother Lula May Young

Lula Lula. You don't hear that one much anymore Nobody's naming their kid Lula That's old school. Although it will probably make a comeback because a lot of those names like that they cycle. Probably get a voicemail or a email that hey

I just named my kid little Lula. My kid, Lula. It's not the easiest word to say either. For you. Oh, but you're all over it. I'm like a ninja with vocabulary. I'm the ninja vocabularist. You're a word ninja. Later on, his grandmother would tell a newspaper that as a child, Coral enjoyed hunting and skinning rabbits. There's a lot of kids, Gibbs, that enjoy hunting. Yeah. Go with their dad or, you know, family. Right. I think when you get into the area of enjoying the skinning part, that's probably more where she was going back and saying, yeah, as a kid, he did enjoy that.

Yeah. You know, different time, did a different error. You know, it's just. It was the 50s, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I can see you out there hunting and you're learning to skin that rabbit and how to eat that meat. I get that, but enjoying the act. Yeah.

I think that's where people will really. really, you know, really look at it and say, I get it that people enjoy hunting. Yeah. Not getting excited about, oh, I can't wait to skin that. Yeah, that part, I don't know if a lot of people get excited about that part. But we have to talk about how he got his nickname. I mentioned his name was Carl. Right.

He spent a lot of time with his cousins. And apparently they had some pretty gibby-esque accents. They were known to draw out their words. Yeah. I was getting ready to say. go ahead. I'll let you go where you're going, but I kind of know where you're going with it. And apparently these cousins, cousins, would draw at his name. Yeah.

Until it formed the sound of like coral. And it, he liked it. Yeah. Let's go out on the boat, Carl. That's how it happens. Yeah. Do you hear it? Not really, but I heard Carl.

You did? Yeah. Let's go out on the boat, Carl. That's Carl. You want to go out on the boat, Carl? Well, you just said Coral. No, I said Carl. But he liked it, and this name would stick with him for the rest of his life.

Yeah. Even in prison, huh? Forever and ever. Now, his mother ended up remarrying to a man named Norman Caesar in 1962. And she would go on to give birth to two daughters with this man. But Coral was never thrilled to be put into this role of being. being the big brother. And later on as an adult,

Coral Watts would say that when he was around 12 years old, he started to have very dark fantasies. And these were fantasies about girls and young women, but not the type that a normal teenager would have. These are dark. We're talking about torturing, killing females. Yeah, it is dark. This is what he is fantasizing about.

Now, in school, he was very shy. He was introverted. And like a lot of people we talk about, he was the victim of bully. So he was bullied quite often. He also had issues with literacy. He had some other types of learning issues. He couldn't remember things very well. So he had a tough time in school.

Yeah, I can relate. Yeah, we've talked about some of your issues and struggles. and you've been pretty candid with that. Yeah. And now look where you are. Look where I'm at today. Have overcome those. That's right.

Standing up like Jack on the Titanic. On top of the world. A poster boy. You're the poster boy for stick-to-itiveness. Yes, right. Now, at the age of 13, Coral came down with a really bad case of meningitis and developed a very high fever. And because of this illness, he couldn't attend school for long, stretches of time.

And he was stuck at home so he couldn't attend school, but somehow he was able to hunt and skin rabbits. Okay. Because during this point, he's not going to school, but it was said that he enjoyed hunting and skinning rabbits during this period of time. So he'd get up, instead of going to school, he'd go out into the woods and get him a little rabbit or squirrel or something. Yep.

Okay. When he got over the illness, when he went back to school, he couldn't make up all this work. And he was forced to repeat the eighth grade. And this was very humiliating for Coral Lutz. Try the second grade, man. You're talking about your Billy Madison experience? Yeah. And that can be, right? That can be very humiliating for kids when you're in a grade moving along with your friends. Right. And all of a sudden, they go on and you don't. It's hurtful. That can be very tough. Yeah. So he didn't do well with academics, but Coral Watts was a very good athlete. He joined the Silver Gloves boxing program, which was used to teach young boys, self-respect, and discipline.

Yeah. I'm assuming that's like the junior version of the golden gloves. I believe so. I'm putting that together. Yeah. You've been in the ring before? I have been in the ring for taekwondo. Yeah.

But not for like straight boxing. But we used to do a lot of boxing when I was a kid. Yeah. For some reason, my friends and I enjoyed boxing and beating the hell out of each other. It was good time, man. It was. You remember the tough man contest? I do remember it.

Yeah. I don't remember you in it, but. Well, you wouldn't recall, but. I'm sure. I'm sure you were in there. Long hair, mullet flowing in the wind. It's right, man. As you were knocking people out of the rain.

Watch out. Here comes Gibby. One, two, three. Boom. And you've heard a lot of stories about how boxing, helps troubled kids. Oh, yeah. For a while,

helped Mike Tyson. He kind of turned the page a little bit, but. Help Rocky. Helped Rocky. That's not a real person, but we'll go with it. But it didn't do the same, it didn't have the same type of effect on Coral. This boxing,

instead of calming him down, making him more discipline, kind of set him off, made him more aggressive, and made him want to attack people. And he got in trouble at school a lot for physically confronting classmates, beating up people. But he seemed to zero in on girls. As a teenager, he started stalking girls.

And it's believed that he killed his first victim before the age of 15 years old. Wow, that's early. 15 years old. That's so early. Before. So he could have been 13, 14, whenever it was. they believed he killed that young. But remember, he started these dark fantasies at the early age of 12.

But he's in school. He's doing so poorly at school, Gibbs, that they said at the point in time where he's 16 years old, he was reading at a third grade level. That's tough to comprehend. I mean, I know you read at a fourth grade level. Yeah, I'm a level up, man. So you got that going for you. Bigger words.

No, but in reality, that's hard to believe. At the age of 16, to be reading at a third grade level, you know, he really, it kind of gives you a sense of maybe some of the learning disabilities that he had and things like that. Right. He was severely challenged in that area. And his first arrest would come on June 29th, 1969. He's delivering papers, you know, making a little extra money, out delivering newspapers. And he targeted a woman on his paper route by the name of Joan gave. And one day when he knocked on the door, she opened it.

She knew who he was. He delivered her paper. He all of a sudden snapped and he beat this woman severely. And then all of a sudden he ran out when she started screaming. But then after a while, Gibbs, he just goes on finishing his paper deliveries like nothing out of the ordinary had happened. And how many times have we seen this? You know, somebody can do something that to us is absolutely horrific where you'd be in the fetal position in the corner of a room saying, oh my gosh, what did I do? This guy is like, yeah, I did that.

And now I'm finishing my paper route. And then I'm going to go home to my family and I'm going to act like nothing happened. And that's exactly what he did. But he was arrested the very next day for this assault on Joan Gay. And it was at this point that Watts is sent to a mental hospital in Detroit. And he received a psychological assessment at the hospital where he was diagnosed with being mildly mentally challenged. I don't know if I've ever heard that diagnosis.

before. Yeah. And it seems like a strange one. Yeah. But they did clock his IQ at only 75. It's not good. It's not high by any means. And a lot of times you and I are talking about people, serial killers that are very

intelligent. IQ wise, right? We're in the, we're in the hundreds, 120, you know, approaching your level of minza genius. Capacity. Capacity. You know that society that you're in that you can't. remember the name of you're so smart i pay the fee that's all i do but 75 he did start having sex at

14 it's kind of normal can be yeah i mean i think a little on the young side but hell i don't know who knows anymore right it kind of runs the gamut yeah i don't know what it is like today of ages today god i don't even want to know but the interesting part about coral watts is that he was having sex with girls, but he was not interested in girls in that way. So he's going through the act, but he's not attracted to girls. He's having dreams about beating up women, killing women. And he would never, ever feel remorseful for the attack on Joan gave. Through all of this analysis that he went through. Not once did he ever show one bit of remorse. And the doctor who treated Watts put in his final review. And this is a quote. This patient is a paranoid young man who is

struggling for control of strong homicidal impulses. His behavior controls are faulty and there is a high potential for violent acting out. This individual is considered dangerous. That's not something you want following you in your record. No. It's a check yourself kind of record. Before you wreck yourself? Yes, right. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. But it's going to be one of those things as we go down this path that people are going to be scratching their head saying, why didn't they help this kid? Or when he does start murdering, how is it that he is not on the radar very quickly? Because he's on this guy's radar right now. Right now. Yeah. So he's let out of the hospital November 9th, He's still in high school. He has to go back to high school. But like we taught, he's a loner. He's using drugs at this point, repeatedly disciplined by school officials for his behavior, especially when it came to female classmates. But he graduates in 1973. I have no idea how. He's reading at a third grade level as a 16 year old and graduates from high school.

Well, stranger things have happened. they have and I knew some guys back in the day that I'm pretty sure they just wanted them to get the hell out they were tired of them being in high school I think they just kind of yeah let's get them out the door here you go I think that happened yeah a little tougher today because of the standards that are put out there but I'm sure it can still be manipulated show me one thing that can't be manipulated Gibbs me I manipulate you like a puppet on a chepetto I'm just Just pulling those strings, man. You probably are, man. That's the beauty of it. You don't know. I know it. That's the key.

The key to it. You're the puppet master. But not only does he graduate high school, he gets a football scholarship. You know, we mentioned the guy was a good athlete. Yeah. So he gets a football scholarship to Lane College in Jackson, Tennessee. Yeah. I know Jackson is.

Do you? Yeah. Drive through it many times. On the way to Lake or family down there? Yeah. But he's only at this Lane College for about three months because he was accused of stalking and assaulting women. This guy can't go anywhere without getting into some type of trouble with women.

It had to be pretty bad back in 1970s because I think they probably were a little bit more loose with the stalking and the harassment. And like today, it would be zero tolerance. Oh, night and day. We all know that. So he must have been really stalking or really, you know, being a sort of. Very aggressive. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's not just that. He's thought to have killed a female student during this three months that he's at this college. Wow. But there was never enough evidence to point the finger at him or to convict him. Now, we know he spent some time in a mental hospital. And he's going to return 10 different times from the. from the ages of 16 to 21.

So he was in and out quite a bit, averaged at least twice a year over that five-year period. So again, I go back to Gibbs. As we start to get into this, this guy is on the radar. He is very well known. But he did end up going back to college. It wouldn't be Lane College.

It would be Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo. And right before he goes back, you know, this is one of these instances where he goes to a mental health facility. They evaluate him. And again, in his record, indicate that he's a dangerous individual and that he has very strong impulses to harm women. Now, we talk about the fact that this guy's known or that he's on radar. But there is doctor patient confidentiality. Sure.

so it's not like they can, they're not calling these schools he's going to or jobs that he's going to have later and saying, hey, this guy is dangerous. They can't do that. It's at the age of 20 at one of these checkups at a mental hospital that he starts talking in his evaluation about having some issues with his sexuality.

And I kind of foreshadowed it by saying he started having sex at the of 14, but by his own admission was not into girls. So there is some, I don't know if you want to call it evidence, but there's something there that where I think even he thought that maybe he was homosexual. And maybe some of this led to his animosity towards women. Towards the women. So at this new college, he's studying engineering. And I don't get this at all. That is not an easy field. It's all right. I've got some buddies that are engineers.

Yeah. I know it's a pretty tough field. It is. It would be very tough for an individual that probably shouldn't have graduated high school and was reading on a third, fourth, fifth grade level. Right. Yeah. It's not the courses for them. And his next attack would happen on October 25th, 1974.

He knocked on the door of a woman's home. And when she answered, he said he was looking for someone named, Charles. And before this woman knew what happened, Coral Watts was on top of her. And he choked her until she passed out. Now, she fought him pretty hard. Good for her. But she did pass out. He left the house, but she lived through this attack. Well, that's all it matters at this point, you know? But it would be just five days later that 19 year old Gloria Steele would be found stabbed the death with 33 wounds to the chest. And there was a witness who came forward to police and said that there was a man at the place

where Gloria Steele lived who was asking for someone named Charles. And then just two weeks after this attack on the 19 year old, another woman by the name of Diane Williams is attacked by a man claiming to be looking for Charles. She would also survive her attack, report it to police, she gave a description, but she also gave a make of the car that this person was driving. So it's not too hard to figure out what his gimmick is at this point, right? Knock on the door, ask for a man named Charles, and then if a woman answers, he attacks. And these two victims that survived these attacks by Coral Watts, they would pick him out of a line. lineup and he would end up being charged with assault and battery.

And he told police he had attacked 15 females by this point. But he would not talk about the murder of Gloria Steele at all. His lawyer is able to work out an arrangement where he is sent to the Kalamazoo State Hospital. And while he's there, he admits to people that, you know, he's killed a number of women by choking them. He's diagnosed with an antisocial personality disorder, but Watts didn't mind being at the hospital at all. And obviously he would have preferred it over jail, no doubt.

I would think so. But apparently Gibbs, he's shooting pool. He's playing basketball. I mean, it's like he's at the YMCA. But while he's at this state hospital, he was trying to convince the doctors that he wanted to take his own life. And so one day he was able to get a cord from a laundry bag. and he tried to hang himself. But a nurse comes along, finds him, and cuts him down.

But in the end, doctors would find that Coral Watts had no mental illness and that he was competent to stand trial. Now, they also said, though, that this was a very dangerous guy and his potential to reoffend was very high. Because apparently Coral Watts told them that what he did. to women did not bother him at all. Again, kind of going back to his first attack while he's delivering papers, I just don't think it phased him, any of this.

So he does eventually go on trial for the attacks in December of 75. He would plead no contest and he would be sent to the county jail for a year. Now, he's not charged in the murder of Gloria Steele at this point. And he gets out of jail, August of 76, moves back to Inkster, Michigan. with his mother and his stepdad. And when he gets out, he rekindles a relationship with a childhood friend named Dolores Howard. In between June and October of 1978, there would be five attacks on women in Detroit.

He would break into their home, stand over them, place his hands on their mouths, their breasts, and their genitals. Now, what you don't hear me talking about is, I mean, this is, I mean, this is, a sexual assault. There's no penetration, though. Now, Coral and Dolores would have a daughter in 1979, and they would name her Nikisha. Probably not a stretch to know that Coral Watts was not a good father at all. He actually denied the fact that Nikisha was his, and he took off to do his own thing. He didn't want to be a parent. So obviously, this relationship with Dolores and his daughter is not going to work out. He married another woman in August of 79, but his mother didn't

like this new woman. That relationship fell apart. And it's at this point that Coral Watts would talk, he'd talk about this later, but he started to have these very strange nightmares. And he described them Gibbs as as if he was trying to fight something, right? Like literally punching in the air, trying to fight off something. Really? during these nightmarish night you know nightmares that he was having yeah and apparently he would fall out of bed because he was doing so much fighting so much shadow boxing yeah yeah it's very strange was it his frog demon he was fighting he was fighting something it could have been the frog demon he also started to move the furniture around the house a lot he would cut up house plants with knives

and he would dump trash all over the floor and just leave it there Okay. So he's grade A husband material. Yeah. We know that. And if they did have sex, which I don't believe was very often with this new wife that eventually fell apart. Yeah. He would leave right after and would be gone for hours and hours.

So he's a strange cat. He is a strange cat. But maybe the reason why he was leaving and the reason why he was gone for hours and hours is because there would be a string of vicarious. victims that would start up around this time. All right, Gibbs, we have to take a second and talk about our sponsor, Hunt a Killer, subscription service for people that are true crime obsessed. Kind of like we are. Yeah, you get to live it.

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Love it, man. And to help support our show, Hunt a Killer has offered a 15% discount for our listeners, which is tracked to this message. Go to huntaciller.com slash T-Cat and use the code T-Cat to get 15% off. That's Huntaciller.com slash T-Cat. Double T-Code T-Cat for 15% off. So Malikad was found beheaded. in Allen Park, Michigan, September of 79. In October, Peggy Pockmorrow was found strangled to death

in the yard of one of her neighbors. This was in Detroit. And then Gene Kleinie was found stabbed to death outside of her home in Gross Point Farms, Michigan. And you know, Gibbs, I've talked about living in Detroit. Gross Point is, that's a nice area. Yeah. Cross Point Blank. Yeah. You seen that movie? Yeah. John Cusack. Yeah, it's a good. Actually, I have a lot. love that movie. I should have asked you who was in it. I gave it away. Well, you would have got that one though. Yeah. That's a given. It's just a good movie. I do like it. It's got that, um, well, I don't remember her name. She plays the DJ, though,

for the local. You're talking about the one from Goodwill Hunting? Yeah. Yeah. She's like in English, you know, like a British. She's British. Oh my gosh, dude. It's a wonder we have any listeners outside of the United States, or inside the United States, for that matter. I think they like the British noise. I can't think of her name anyway. No, not Mercedes. It's definitely not Mercedes. No, it's, uh, yeah, it'll come to me.

She's in a show on television now, too. Yeah, she's got on the sitcom. I don't watch it either. Good story. Yeah. Glad we brought that up. That might not be there. Remember she was like, Matt in real life, she's like Matt Damon or one of them.

I think he actually dated for a while. Yeah, broke her heart or something, like dumped her on during the Oscars or something. something like that. I don't know. You miss it with Jason Bourne. You're going to get Jason born. How you like those apples? Exactly. How you like those apples? But we have to talk about Gene Cliny because her body was found October 31st, 1979, and people thought that it was a Halloween prank. I mean, this is a woman found outside of her home, stabbed at least 10 times with some type of woodworking tool or a screwdriver. Okay, kind of brutal, actually.

Yeah. Yeah. Not a knife, but not really a sharp object, but an object that can do some damage. Oh, I hate screwdriver, uh, screwdriver fights. You've been in a lot of screwdriver fights, have you? A couple. It's not good. But imagine that kids running around on Halloween thinking that a woman who's probably covered in

blood is part of maybe a Halloween prank. They're thinking, man, that's a really good costume. To find that out, that'd be horrific. Yeah, it would be. And then you had Helen Dutcher was stabbed 12 times in Furndale, Michigan. And there was a witness to her murder that would give a description that matched Coral Watts. This was in December of 79.

And then everything was a little quiet for a while until March of 1980. So that's not a long time, but. For Coral, that's probably a long time. Yeah. Well, we don't know if anything was not happening in between. That's true. You know, we obviously can't talk about everything that he's may or may not be connected with. Hazel Conniff was found in the driveway of her boyfriend.

She had a belt wrapped around her neck. Three weeks later, Denise Dunmore was found strangled in a parking lot in Detroit. April of 1980s, Shirley Small was found on a sidewalk outside of her home as well. So there's a couple of murders that happened of women just outside of their houses. She was stabbed in the heart twice and she eventually bled out. But she also had six gashes on her face. And there would be a lot more victims just in 1980. In May, Linda Montero was found strangled outside of her home.

In July, Glinda Richmond was found stabbed 28 times in her left breast. with a screwdriver. Man, that's 28 times. With a screwdriver. Think about how brutal that is. And later that month, Lily Dunn was essentially taken from her own driveway

in Southgate, Michigan by Coral Watts. And on the same day, he would attack another woman from behind slash her throat. And this woman survived. Wow. then in September of 1980 Rebecca Huff was found Gibbs stabbed 54 times with a screwdriver outside of her home in Ann Arbor.

Man. 54. Wow. That's anger. That's unbelievable. I mean, it really is unbelievable. And keep in mind, what we're talking about are stabbing deaths, not involving knives for the most part. And we have not talked about a single rape.

Coral Watts is not raping these women. He is just flat out murdering them out of what? Shear anger towards women? It has to be, you know? It's not sexual. Look how violent the stabbings are. I mean, he's taking, even if he sharpened the screwdriver, but most likely he didn't. I mean, he's just taking a blunt screwdriver and repeatedly.

stabbing them to death. Now, I say it's not sexual. We've talked about a lot of killers that get sexual gratification through the stabbing alone. So that could have been happening. Could have, but if he was potentially homosexual, I don't think he'd be getting any satisfaction sexually from it. It's just, he's kind of an anomaly here. Yeah. He really is. But it's at this point in time when he gets his nickname. The Sunday. morning slasher. And it's because he's killing women a lot of times outside of their apartments or their homes early on Sunday mornings. Yeah. And it scares the shit out of people in the Detroit area. And then we have to talk about the Windsor Canada connection. And you've heard me talk about living in

Detroit. Yep. Heading over the bridge into Windsor. Yeah. Get some of that tax free back on the day. A little duty free action. Duty free action. Duty free action. Well, Coral Watts did the same thing, but he wasn't going over to gamble or get something duty-free. Yeah. He was going over to... A little window shopping? No, he was doing more than that. He was going over to hurt women.

And there were several attacks that happened in 1980 in Windsor, Canada. And at least three women survived attacks that involved stabbings. one of the women had her throat slashed. And Gibbs, this woman that had her throat slashed, she would survive. It's the same woman I just talked about. Happened on the same day as Lily Dunn. So he attacks a woman in Detroit, drives across the bridge into Windsor on the same day and attacks another woman. He's a busy guy.

But one of these women that survived was able to pick Coral Watts out of a lineup. but she was not 100% sure it was him. She thought it was, but not 100%. But detectives looking into the case were able to find evidence of his car leaving Windsor, traveling back into the U.S. after each of these attacks occurred. That seems like pretty strong evidence.

I would think so. Maybe not enough to arrest somebody, but sure is hell enough to start looking at them very strongly. Back in Detroit in October of 80, he attacked another woman, stabbed her, but she ended up living as well. So he had a lot of victims that lived. And this is a guy that we said could have killed maybe 100 people. So how many could he have attacked altogether? I mean, the number could be astounding.

But this woman lived, but she would endure lifelong trauma. I mean, this was a very vicious attack. Her facial muscles. were paralyzed. This woman could barely eat, couldn't turn her head, couldn't lift her arms. Man, that's rough. So she survived, but the wounds were so severe that she would have to live with the aftermath the rest of her life. Now, a lot of victims do physically and psychologically, but she really was devastated physically for sure. And he had a string of these. And he had a string of these. attacks where either the victim lived or they were able to get away from him. Now, in November of

1980, the body of Lena Bennett was found hanging by a belt in her garage. And this was the first victim that Coral Watts had sexually assaulted. He had inserted a broomstick into her vagina. Why? Why do they do that? I don't know. I don't know. We've been asking that on many episodes lately, the why. And it was just later that month in November, a woman called police to report that she was being stalked. A man was after her. And she was very afraid. And this is kind of amazing because police units were actually able to observe this man, frantically searching for this woman, and they pull him over. And it turns out to be Coral Watts. And inside his car, they find multiple screwdrivers, a bunch of other woodworking tools.

And they also find a book that had the name Rebecca on it. And they believe that this was referring to Rebecca Huff. Yeah. Who was the woman stabbed 54 times of the screwdriver just a few months earlier. And this is when Ann Arbor Detective Paul Bunton gets involved with this case. and Watts is arrested for a suspended license and expired tags. They really had no evidence against him when he was brought in. And eventually they had to let him go.

But Paul Bunton knew something was not right about Watts. And he started looking into his past talking with doctors and lawyers who had known Watts. And he started to put some of these pieces together because some of these people would say, you know, this guy is dangerous. He might be the guy that you're looking for. Right. Now, after Watts got out, he tried to attack another woman, but she was able to get away from him. Paul Button was able to get a warrant. And he put a tracking device on Watts's car. But the warrant for the tracking device had an expiration date. And so right before it expired, he brought Coral in for questioning, talked to him for five hours.

And we talked for several hours. I tried not to get too accusatory because I wanted to keep talking with him. But I finally started getting fairly accusatory and he continued to talk to me. And I even got to one point where I says, Carl, I even know how you did it. And I actually got around behind him and I put my hand around his throat like this. And I said, and you just stabbed like this and kept stabbing. And he practically went limp on me when I did that.

And I said, you are a very sick, troubled person. And he agreed with me. He at that point just kind of went within himself and said, I want to talk to my mother. So he just basically comes out and says, hey, I know you're doing this stuff. But he doesn't have anything to tie Watts to any of the attacks or murders. They do take a blood sample. but even that doesn't link Coral Watts to any of the known crimes. And it's just a few months later when the detective sees Watts again at the courthouse,

and he goes up to talk to him. And when he tries to talk to Coral Watts, Coral runs away. Just runs away? Just runs away. Like how you run sometimes? Just flopping your hands. They're flopping my arms and when I take my ball and go home. Yeah.

That's how he did it. But he must have been really spooked. by this incident because he goes home, he packs up his things, drops by his grandma's house, and then he goes to Texas. So he gets the heck out of Dodge, or the heck out of Detroit, at least. Detroit. Rock City? Rock City. Eight mile.

So he's down in Texas. He gets a job down there. Probably a big job, too. Oh, I'm sure it was a fancy, maybe a CEO or something. Oh, that's Texas. Everything's bigger in Texas. need a big job. Yeah. But this detective is not letting this thing go because he actually sends a 19 page report down to the Houston Police Department. He wants them to know what kind of guy they're dealing with.

So in September of 81, Coral Watts is drinking and he's driving around town and he decides to follow a woman that he sees. The woman's name was Linda Tilly. He followed her. He attacked her and he ended up holding her underwater until she drowned. That's tough to do. So he killed this woman by drowning her. Yeah. I mean, that's not something easy, you know, when you got somebody struggling. So, I mean, clearly, you know, what he said, he's strong.

He was a strong guy. He was an athlete. He was able to overpower these women. But Linda Tilly was the first known Texas killing by Coral Watts. But that same month, he also stabbed a woman named Susan Wolf to death. And then in 1982, he murdered a woman named Phyllis Tam. She had left her house to go on an early morning run. And she was found hanging from a tree branch.

It's terrible. And initially, police would rule this a suicide. But her family knew no way. No way would she do this. Watts followed a girl home. He attacked her. Then he killed her and put her body into the trunk of her own car and left it there. And this is in January of 82.

So he's really ramping up in Texas in January of 82. Killed Phyllis Tam. He killed this girl that he followed home. He tried to murder another woman in this same time frame, maybe even the same day by slitting her throat, but she too, like some others, would survive. There's a lot of these women Gibbs that survived a throat slashing. Extremely lucky. Because there's not a lot of people that do.

And just a couple of days after these attacks, he strangled a woman named Margaret Fossi to death in Houston. And at the end of that month, he attacked two more women. He attacked a 19-year-old girl outside of her apartment. But she didn't die. She woke up in the hospital with multiple stab wounds, and then just the next day, he attacked another woman that survived as well. So again, I can't stress how many survivors there are.

It's amazing, you know, how lucky they are and how many. Because we know how many did not survive. Yeah, and I think because he's such a repetitive striker, right? I think another reason why they think the count is actually higher. And then in February of 82, Elena Samander was going to visit a friend. And a witness would come forward and say that he saw an African-American man drag this woman behind a dumpster. He heard her moan and then he saw something being thrown in the dumpster. Now, he's coming forward later on.

He's not investigating this and tangling with this guy at the time. Right. Which you can say he should have. he shouldn't have. It's tough to say, right? In that situation, it would be a trash collector that would actually discover her body

when he comes to get this dumpster. He sees her leg and calls police. Be freaky, for sure. Very. And then in 1982, there is a lot of victims. And, you know, we'll just talk about some gives.

We can't talk about every victim of Coral Watts. There's just too many. Too many for sure. You know, in March, he murdered a young girl who had had a fight with her dad. She was last seen hitchhiking on the same road that Watts was seen driving down. There was another girl that was fairly young and she was out running and he stabbed her 17 times. He attacked another girl, but she was able to get away from Watts because as he described it, his hands were too bloody.

Wow. During this attack. To hold on to her. To hold on to this girl. Imagine that. Paint that picture in your mind. Lucky her to get away. Because we talked about it.

This guy is attacking these women at very close range, right? Often with a screwdriver, he would be covered in blood. Edith Liddette was a 34-year-old medical student. She was out jogging. later found stabbed the death in Galveston, Texas. Then you had Yolanda Garcia. She was stabbed four times. I mean, that's one of his, it's strange, right?

Because he's typically stabbing in the double digits. And it is strange. So why 17 times? Why 54 times? And then why four times? And we just talked about a woman that survived that was stabbed three times. But again, are we in this guy's head? Man, that's a be a scary place to be.

It would be. To try to figure out why in the hell he's doing what he's doing, he killed a woman named Carrie Jefferson. And like he had done before, after killing her, put her in the trunk of her own car and left her there. Susan Searles was found strangled in her parking lot, in the parking lot of the apartment complex she lived in. Emily LaQualle was stabbed to death in Walker County.

So, I mean, these are just some. of the murders in 1982. There is a lot. And then we get to May 23rd of 1982. In the early morning hours, he killed a woman by the name of Michelle Medea, followed her to her apartment, dragged her inside, and drowned her in a bathtub of hot water. But that wasn't enough for Coral Watts on that day. He went out looking for another woman and he spotted a woman named Lori Lister. turning into her apartment complex, she's walking to her door and Watts catches up to her before she can make it there. He chokes her, but he doesn't kill her by choking her. He just knocks her out. He drags her up the stairs, opens the door to her apartment with her keys, and as he opens the door,

there stands her roommate. She's in a bathrobe staring at Coral Watts, who's dragging her roommate who's unconscious. She's shocked. Oh, I can't imagine. He forces the roommate into the bedroom and ties her up. Then he fills the bathtub and he lowers Lori Lister down into the water. But a neighbor had seen this take place. And this is the other thing.

This guy was very brazen. He did a lot of these things outside. Yeah, he didn't have a fear for the police. And not even, and witnesses. He didn't seem to care that other people were around. And so when he attacked this woman, Lori Lister, a neighbor saw him,

called the police, and while this is happening, the roommate, her hands are still bound behind her. She makes her way to a balcony and jumps over to the lawn below. And this happens just as the police are getting there. Yeah.

Smart woman. So, what I did is I jumped in. as high as I could and went and did a somersault. And I actually hit my head on top. And then when I came down, I landed on my knees. There was a lady sitting out, you know, out in her little porch area drinking coffee. And that's, you know, I told her I needed help.

Someone was trying to kill my roommate. So that's actually her. I mean, there's something that you just don't ever want to hear, you know. But imagine being that person just sitting out there having a little cup of coffee and somebody come up to you and say, someone's trying to kill her. me or trying to kill my roommate. Called the police. Yes, it's not something you know you ever expect to hear.

But man, you got to give this roommate a lot of credit, very strong, you know, to get to strength to get away, jump over this balcony. Yeah. Because you know something bad was going to happen to her. Coral Watts was not just going to leave. I think she said either I jump might break something or I stay and I'll die. Yeah, I believe so. But he eventually realizes that.

she escaped. And so he takes off running, but he's arrested at the apartment complex because police had arrived by that point. First case, we'd like to bring up about the female over shotgun in the town. Why did she realize that you were fired? All right, said, you grabbed her by the what? Show her. Then what happened? You stabbed at one time.

You stabbed one time. Do you remember what area of the body you stabbed? How long was it from the first girl you stabbed to you stab this second girl in a time front? We're talking about what, an hour, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, hour, hour and a half? The best you could recollect. Maybe 15 minutes. So that's police question.

questioning Coral Watts. I know it's very hard to hear, especially him. But the reason I like that clip, that part of the questioning was they asked him about two victims stabbed very close together. And you hear the detective ask him, how long do you think it was between the time that you stabbed this first girl and the time you stabbed the second? And he answers about 15 minutes. That's just to give you a sense of this guy. Yeah. And Watts ultimately confessed on August 9th, 1982,

and it lasted over 28 hours. Can you imagine how much information that you would give in the span of 28 hours? No. But he had a lot of information to talk about. Yeah, that's a long time, man. But the reason why he confessed is, He said he would plead guilty to the attacks on the two women along with aggravated burglary.

And then he would give info on the other victims that he had killed if they would give him immunity. So he's basically trading all this information for a 60 year sentence. And he ended up confessing to 12 murders in Texas. Because you got to remember, he's in Texas. Right. We still have all those. cases in Michigan. So he gets this 60 year sentence in Texas, but it was ruled that Coral Watts had not been told that the bathtub and the water that he used to attack Lori Lister was considered

a deadly weapon. So what ended up happening in kind of a strange deal here, he was changed to a non-violent felon status. His status was changed. And it was this change that made it possible for him to get an early release. Because at the time, Texas law said that non-violent offenders could have three days removed off their sentence for every day they served where they had good behavior. And apparently, Coral Watts was like this model prisoner. And he started racking.

up these days to the point where he was going to get out of prison in 2006. So keep in mind, he got a 60 year sentence in the early 80s. Right. And in about 24 years, he was about ready to get out. But this guy was a monster. Everybody knew he was a monster. And this is when all kinds of people start stepping forward. I mean, you had the families of victims, and they were calling everybody and their brother saying there's no way, you can't let this happen. But this is also when the state of Michigan steps in. And the attorney general goes on TV asking anyone who has any information on Coral Watts to come forward. They want to make a case out of these Michigan murders to ensure that he never gets out of jail.

Right. and a witness does come forward from the 1979 murder of Helen Dutcher. The witness stated that the witness saw Watts stab Helen Dutcher to death and said that he had evil eyes that were devoid of emotion. I don't doubt that for one second. No, I think that's what he has to have for what he's doing. I can't imagine. I mean, how could you have even an ounce of emotion in?

you or sympathy or empathy or any of that and do the things that this guy did. The multitude of stabbing that he's doing. Evil. So Watts has immunity in Texas, but he doesn't have it in Michigan. And they take him to trial in Michigan. And Watts would go on trial in Michigan in late 2004 for the murder of Helen Dutcher. And it was said Gibbs that Watts was very uncomfortable in court. as the attorneys described the murders that he committed in Michigan.

They said, you know, he was twitchy. His face was kind of involuntarily jerking. I don't know. It just seems strange for a man that doesn't seem to care about anything. Not sure why he would get twitchy now all of a sudden in 2004. Right. And what's interesting about this trial in Michigan is that a lot of his Texas crime, were let in.

Even the survivors of some of his Texas crimes went to Michigan to testify against him. Oh, really? So it's like they let that stuff in in this Michigan trial. Well, that's good. As long as it was legally handled correctly, then good. And pretty quickly, I mean, this trial didn't last a very long time. He was found guilty for the murder of Helen Dutcher, but that wasn't the end of it. And he did get a life sentence in the state of Michigan for that murder alone.

But then they charged him with the murder of Gloria Steele that we know happened very early on in his crime spree. That trial started in 2007 and he was found guilty. I mean, that murder happened in 1974. And he gets another life sentence for the murder of Gloria. but very shortly after that in the same month, I think as this sentence is handed down, Coral Watts dies in prison from prostate cancer. But I just look at this case, Gibbs, and think how many victims, how many victims survived and how many victims were killed by Coral Watts that we don't know about.

I think there's many out there. And I know we say that about a lot of people, but I'd never seen. we've never had a case where police think the number is this high. I mean, to say that it could be as high as 100, man. That's a massive number. That's massive. And I think they can say that too because you can factor in a lot of the missing people reports. Oh, yeah.

You know, I mean, there's just, yeah. And he operated over pretty good number of years. And we know in some months he killed three or four people in a month. In a month. So you extrapolate that over, you know, eight, nine, ten years. Yeah. That could be a hell of a number. And he was in some heavily populated areas.

So it wouldn't be unheard of that. It could be done. Without people realizing that it was tied to him. Yes. And then the other thing that really grabbed me about this case was the, this part in Texas, this kind of nonviolent felon classified. that almost let this guy get out after serving 24 years. Yeah, that was pretty scary.

Think about it, man. He died a year later anyway. Yeah, but if he didn't. Yeah. Right? And even just that year, if he would have been out, he could have did some damage. Well, he was only 53 years old when he died. Yeah.

So he would have been, let's say, 52. Right. He gets out. You know for a fact he would have started killing women. I mean those guys don't stop I'll be 52 so you know I don't know I don't see the correlation but I'm just saying you know you're still young and virile is that what you're trying to say I'm saying you know strong like bull sort like bull all right but I just I thought that part of the case was discombobulating to me because 24 years this guy could have gotten out and what could have happened

But everybody was standing in line, right, from victims' families to authorities and other states to make sure that that didn't happen. Yeah. I mean, times change and policies change. And who knows, I mean, you know, even in today's world, I mean, there's a big push for, you know, to kind of mirror the prison systems in Germany, you know, where criminals are given. more responsibilities that eventually so they can get out of prison a lot sooner. Even here in the United States, they're looking at it pretty heavy to see how successful that is over in Germany where you limit the time people are in prison. No, and I'll repeat what I've said before.

I do believe in rehabilitation, but not for a man like Coral Watts. I don't think it's possible. Yeah, I believe you. I don't think somebody like that can be turned around. And even if he could be rehabilitated, I think his crimes were so heinous and there were so many of them that he doesn't deserve to be walking the streets again. Even in that rare instance where you would say this man's rehabilitated. I just don't think so. Yeah, he doesn't value life.

No. Right? I mean, there's people that have killed somebody for many different reasons. Right. But just to kill to kill, just for the. that factor alone, you just don't value life. And the number, the sheer number, there's just, I don't know, that type of guy or that type of person who is pure evil should never walk to streets. I just don't, I don't think so. And I don't think that makes me heartless. I don't

want that guy in my neighborhood. No. I can tell you that right now. Even if the state says he's rehabilitated, then let him stay with them for a little bit. Yeah, I don't want him living next door to me. But that's it. That is the case of Coral Watts. Yeah. Like we said, could be one of the most prolific serial killers in the history of the U.S. Could be. Either way, he was a horrible, horrible person.

Nightmarish. We got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to lighten the mood? Do we have some voicemails? We do. We don't need to ask for anymore. No. We got plenty.

We get plenty. Okay. Well, we need to lighten it a little because that was a little dark. Yeah, it was pretty dark. Let's just have some fun with some voicemails. All right, let's do it. Hey Mike and Gibby. It's Noel calling from Loveland, Colorado. I'm a pretty new listener, and I know you're getting lots of voicemails, but I just wanted to say hi. Say I love the show. You guys do an awesome job. Many have said it before, but I love your balance between comedy, not comedy per se, but joking around and presenting the facts and sharing some of these stories with us. So keep up the good work. Know that it's appreciated. Keep your own time taking. Bye, guys. I just love our Colorado folks and Noel.

Thank you for that. We really appreciate that. And yeah, sometimes we've got to keep it light. You know, like today, you know, the one that we just did. You know, it can be tough. So if we can... And we enjoy busting on each other. So I think you enjoy busting on me.

I just have to, like, defend myself. That is such bullshit, dude. In the real world. You come down on me so hard. You bust on me. And then you get on this podcast and you're like, oh, I probably shouldn't bust on Fergie because people think it might be. That's what's sad.

I know they know better. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Casey Poshinger out of Indianapolis, originally from Louisville. I just wanted to say hi and let you all know that you're one of my favorite podcasts that I listen to in the car all the time and even at work. I just want to say that his share story really hit home for me as I met her mother. back in grade school when, you know, she went around and they were talking about this case because of kids and Louisville because of how, you know, close it was. So there was one of those cases that I really dealt into and got me really interested in true

crime in the first place. So just wanted to say, hey, stay safe. Keep your own time ticking. Bye, guys. Man, Indy in the house. Indie? Indie. Louisville.

And Louisville. Louisville. Well, you say it either way. I'll say it my way. Gibbs, you know what I'm amazed by? how many people in voicemails, emails, Facebook messages have had interactions in some form or fashion with victims. Yeah.

The killers themselves. I know it. It's kind of scary. It's shocking how many people have brushed up against some part of these cases that we talk about. Three degrees of separation. Yeah. I think it's more than that, but six degrees or seven. You're halfway there.

Yeah. Hey, Fergie and Gibby. My name is Jenna. I'm calling from Regina, Saskatchewan. I just started the podcast, and I absolutely love it. I've been binging it on my walk to work. I'm on the Menendez Brothers episode right now. But I just wanted to tell you guys that, like, I love true crime.

I listen to True Crime podcast all the time. And I actually suffered quite a violent sexual assault a few weeks. ago and since then the only podcast I can listen to is yours because I get so anxious but there's something about your podcast that just puts me at ease somehow. You guys have such a wonderful attitude about the victims of violent crime and just the way that you talk about these crimes. I don't know. It's restored my faith in humanity, restore my trust in men and I just absolutely love you guys. So not only thank you for all the hard work, but thank you for just being the people that you are and having the attitude that you have. So stay safe out there, guys, and keep

your own time ticking. So an amazing voicemail from Jenna. Sure. And this one made me emotional. Yeah, it's making me emotional now. Yeah. It really did because you heard her say Gibbs just a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. And she sounds like a very strong woman. What a, what a brave woman too. And on the lighter side, thank you for saying where you live, because there's no way I would have got that out of my mouth. How would you have said it? I'm not sure. Regina.

To me, it's spelled like Regina. Saskatchewan. Oh, you meant Saskatchewan? Yeah. I thought you meant Regina. Yeah, Regina. Yeah. I think we, I know I've messaged.

I've been on social media with, with her, but about the name of her city. Oh, Regina. And then the Saskatchewana. It's easy for you to say. What a humbling voicemail. And I'm glad that you can listen to us. And if Mike's voice over there keeps you calm, then that's great. We've talked about it, Gibbs.

If our podcast helps people in any way. And there's a lot of different ways, right? Past the time, fall asleep. Some people like to fall asleep to us. There's a lot of people like to fall asleep to us. Yeah. A lot of people like to hear about serious, dark crime as they're going to sleep.

Now they say they'll re-listen later, but they just like to put his on why they lay there lighter and bad. They just woke up right there. Yeah. You're like, what the heck was that? But anyway, that was an amazing voicemail, and it did. It choked me up. It sure did.

Hi, I'm Lisa. I'm from Illinois, and I am an emergency 911 dispatcher, so I get paid to tell cops where to go and what to do. and I've heard I've been actually binge watching because I had not found you guys until recently and I'm doing great. I've, you know, listened to everything. Got to the Dahmer case and I actually had to turn it off. The second part, I had to actually turn off because I usually listen to it at night right before you go to bed.

And that one just got me bad. And trust me, I've heard a lot of things. In fact, I read the original report because years ago when it happened, one of my officers received a copy of that report. So I read the original report. But man, the way you guys spend it, spun it. That was it. Now, another thing I have to say is Gibby, sorry, the team Gibby tattoos coming off if you can't say Illinois correctly. Have a great day.

Love it. Love it. Illinois. There you go. He said it. But you've always said, Gibbs, Illinois is a different state. That's exactly right. It's not Illinois.

Yeah. This is a different state that you've been to. That's what I'm saying. But to have a 911 operator, say that. That's awesome. Something is, uh, something got to her. Because, man, she hears a lot of, she hears a lot of bad stuff, I'm assuming. What a tough job, too.

Oh, yeah. It takes a special kind of person to be able to do that day in, day out. Stay calm. you know, when other people on the other side are panicking and freaking out and somehow bring them to a, to a state where. Yeah, that they can communicate the information that you desperately need to get them their assistance. Yeah. So awesome. Awesome.

Everyone. Love it. I should be a 911 operator. You should be. I like the fact that she says she gets paid to tell cops what to do. That's what we all want. Yeah. To get paid to tell cops what to do.

All right. That is it for another. episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. You know, if I was a 911 operator. Yeah. I probably get that, you know, it'd be like, 911. What is your emergency? You're supposed to say, what is your emergency? I was going to say, state your emergency. And it'd be like, I'm here at Taco Bell and I ordered myself a burrito and they gave me an enchilada and I want my money back. I've heard that one. That's a real one. Is that a real one? I think so. That's what I would get.

Or something like may not have been Taco Bell. It might have been McDonald's or a burger place. I didn't want ketchup on my burger. Yeah. What are you going to do about it? I've heard that there was, and I'm sure there have been many more, but I heard about one like that. That's the kind of calls I'd get. You get the real good ones, you know?

I wouldn't. One thing I will say about me is I am very calm under pressure. Yeah, you are. My wife, not so much. Like when the kids get hurt or something, I have to take over because she goes into panic. I'm not saying anything bad about her. She just, she really panics when something happens to the kids.

And for some reason, I'm able to kind of, I'm kind of that same way. I'm pretty cool about it. I'm even Steven, you know, just, there's not much that gets me rowed up, you know. I'd actually say you're very even. I've never seen you what I would call pissed off. I've seen you upset. Yeah. I've never seen you like in a yelling, ranting, raving kind of way.

No, I just kind of work, work through it, you know? Yeah. I just analyze it, figure out what direction I got to go. You're probably more even killed than I am because I kind of go off. I've seen you go off of. I went off on some lady at the insurance company the other day. Yeah. I was calling her about to get some information from my mother-in-law.

Right. And this lady was being real snarky to me on the phone. And it was bullshit the way she was treating me. I didn't get it. I won't say the name of the company. Yeah. But I finally told her, I said, I hope these calls are recorded so that your boss can go back later and listen to, you know, how you're talking to me. How rude you are.

Yeah. And I'd like for you to take that as a building block to make yourself better. That's what I told her. Here's your takeaway. I've seen you. I mean, like that time that you were in Costco and that 80-year-old lady trying to take that, you wanted the last thing. of those, what's that popcorn you like? The cheddar and the...

Oh, the Chicago style? Chicago style. Yeah, she had the last bag you're trying to take it from her. You know, when you mess with no 80-year-old. Yeah. Okay, yeah. I felt bad for her. I did punch through a guy's car window.

Yeah, you told me about it. A few years ago. He almost backed into my kids and my wife. Yeah. And... That's one thing I would say about you. Don't mess with Mike's family. Then he got real shitty and gave me the finger.

Yeah. You used to go. around and say, I'll drop you where you stay. I'll drop you where you stand. I got to stop saying that though, man. As you get older, the older you get, the less ability you have to drop people where they stay. Yeah. No, you should say, I'll drop you somewhere. I don't know how long it's going to take me to drop you, but eventually you're going to drop. You know, as you age, you have to be careful about your mouth, you know, writing checks that your muscles can no longer catch. That's right. You got to build back that stuff up.

Exactly. Oh, shit, Gibbs. I forgot to hit the button. You always do that now in there. I know. I don't know why I do that. Play it back. If you like it, leave it in.

Yeah, we'll leave it out. People like that sometimes. All right.