True Crime All The Time - Cynthia Mueller

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

In November 2012, 52-year-old David Mueller was found dead in his home in Prescott, Arizona. The authorities initially assumed that David, who had ALS, died of natural causes until one of his former caregivers confessed that he and David’s wife, Cynthia murdered him.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Cynthia Mueller and the death of her husband, David. David had confided in people that he believed Cynthia was trying to kill him. At her trial, the prosecution had a star witness, a man named Chuck Todd, who said he and Cynthia had an affair. He also said that she enlisted his help in murdering David Mueller.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 321 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime. Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing very well. Good.

So the Super Bowl's behind us. Yeah. We just had Valentine's Day. It was last night as we're taping this. Yeah. Thanks for the flowers. Yeah. I was going to go chocolates too, but I thought that was a little overboard.

Never overboard, but. Anyway, thanks. I did that for my wife, but I hope everybody out there had a good one. You know, and we're creeping up on spring. I mean, it'll be here before you know it. Oh, 68 degrees today, man. Yeah, I know. I know.

And I'm wearing shorts again in the studio. So let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Sherry Kay. Hey, Sherry. Shalene Daniels. Hey, Shalene. Rebecca. Hushpad.

What's up, Hush. Nikita Peters. Hey, Nikita. Jenna Stats Hey Jenna Andrew Dodds Appreciate that, Andrew Ashley Barnes

There's Ashley Jeannie Enzy Hey what's going on Enzy versus Audi Amber Cler Hey Amber Karen

Hey there's a Karen Billy Buneer What's up Bita Andrea Stewart Hey Andrea Artemis There's a name you don't hear that often Artemis

No I like it Yeah Hero Fever 99 What's going on Hero Anthony Wores Hey Anthony Annie White

What's happened and Annie. Pamela Sobocken. Ooh, Sobocken. Crystal. Hey, Crystal. Jonice, Eves Roberts. Like that. Ease Roberts. Yeah.

Yeah. And last but not least, Mary Clisham. Hey, Mary. And then if we go back into the vault. How far are we going back? As far as we can, man, every time. This week, we selected Betty Winter. Hey, Betty.

So we appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We had a great PayPal. donation from Deidre Whitaker. Thank you, Deidre. Yeah, thanks to everyone. Gibbs right now on true crime all the time unsolved. We have part two of our Jack the Ripper episodes. We do. And, you know, it's chock full, man. We're talking about suspects. We're talking more about the victims. And, you know, it's one of those that, uh, you're not going to want to miss. I love it, man. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am, but first, let me just throw this out here.

We really could use your help if you could tell your family, your friends, your coworkers to listen to the podcast because it really helps us out. Yeah, yeah, we don't say it very often, but it does help us out. So I appreciate you thinking of that. Yeah. All right, we are talking about Cynthia Mueller in November of 2012, 52-year-old David Mueller was found dead in his home in Prescott, Arizona. The authorities initially assumed that David, who had ALS, died of natural causes until one of his former caregivers confessed that he and David's wife, Cynthia, murdered him.

Maybe a strange story to pick just after Valentine's Day. Sure, yeah. But, you know, it happens. We know all the time. It's scary. It is. I've told you that many times. These are the ones that that really scare me.

Cynthia Mueller's father was in the military. She moved and changed schools often, which a lot of people said made her a very independent person. She attended college at Arizona State University and majored in public program. Okay. I don't know if it's Arizona State or Arizona. I want to say it's ASU that is like one of those big party schools. Yeah, they're in Tempe. It is. Been there. Done that. Yeah. Okay. Let's not good into too many details. So during college, Cynthia became what was termed by many as a social butterfly. And it was said it was because she just didn't have to move so often. Right. She had done that. her entire life. I think we've talked about it before. You know,

I have family that grew up in the military. Sure. They moved around a lot. It's tough. Oh, has to be. Especially on kids because, all right,

you're meeting people, you're making friends. And then what? A year, two years, you got to move on. Yeah, you got to say goodbye to them

and try to find some new friends. And then you got to do the whole thing all over again. Well, now she's at college. She doesn't have to move. Denise Mueller, David Mueller's sister-in-law told Snap that Cynthia was tall, pretty, and outgoing. In 1999, 35-year-old Cynthia was working for APS.

She met a 38-year-old engineer named David Wesley Mueller. Cynthia and David quickly struck up a friendship. David grew up in Michigan. Eventually, he moved to Phoenix. Denise said that David was driven and very intelligent. His brother, Steve Mueller, said that David wanted to go to medical school, but switched to civil engineering. Steve told Snap that David wasn't a very social person.

He occasionally dated in college, but he wasn't very interested in it. It sounds like he was more into his career. Academics. And then obviously that would then later. lead into his career. But, you know, right off the bat, what strikes me is you have David Mueller who is not a very social person, right, not very outgoing. And then you have Cynthia who is and was called a social butterfly. Yeah. Okay. Is that opposites attract? I think so. Maybe. Cynthia was very interested. and David and she pursued him.

Denise Mueller told Snap that Cynthia had to convince David to go out with her. And I don't know that you're going to hear that all that often. Yeah. This woman who was described as tall and pretty and. Yeah. And all of those things having to convince this guy who doesn't date all that often to go out with her. But that's what was said. after the first date, David became interested in a relationship with Cynthia.

Denise said, David was approaching 40. I think he thought he would never be married. He would never have kids. And then all of a sudden, he saw a future that he didn't think would ever happen. So he goes from not wanting to go on this date at all to essentially having the one day thinking, oh, I could really see something developing here. Yeah, let's get married, have 2.5 kids and a house in the hills and, you know, the whole dream. Just a few months later, David proposed to Cynthia, but there was a problem. APS had a rule against coworkers, dating. I never actually saw it in the

research, but there is a utility company out there, Arizona Public Service. I'm thinking that's what APS stands for. It's not all that important, but they both work there. We have the same policy here. In the studio? Yeah. Yeah. So you and I are not allowed to date. Exactly.

And, you know, I came up with that rule and I still stand behind it. There's a reason for it. I think it's a good rule. But they were dating. So when the company found out that David and Cynthia were together, David was demoted to subcontractor and since, it was let go. Yeah, I get it. You know, I mean, all seriousness, you know, it can be a problem in the workplace. Oh, there's no doubt it can. And a lot of companies have rules about it. Now, I think a lot of the

rules stem from what level each person is on. Yeah. You know, if you're at the same level, I don't think a lot of companies have rules against that. Right. They definitely have rules against, you know, managers dating people that work for them or maybe even in another department. I don't know. My wife and I met at work and almost right after we got married, they separated this. Yeah. It's a good thing they did. At work?

Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of shenanigans. That's what I was thinking. Going on. A few months later, David got a job as a contractor at the Palo Verde Nuclear Plant in Tonopa. Arizona. And apparently he was making a boatload of cash. So much money that Cynthia no longer even

needed to work. So she became very involved in wedding planning, which for anyone who has gone through that to an extensive degree knows is no easy feat. Almost like having a full time job. Yeah. Cynthia and David married and eventually had two children together. They bought a home in Prescott, Arizona. They were very active in their church, and they were respected members of their community. I wonder what it's like to be respected members of your community. I don't know, because I don't even think the members of my community know who I am. So how can they, I am very much okay with that, but how can they respect me when they don't know me? In 2009, David started experiencing numbness in his limbs, and he had trouble doing something.

some things with his hands. He also stumbled when he was walking. David was diagnosed with early ALS. By 2010, David was in a wheelchair and could no longer work. So Cynthia started working in real estate because she needed a job with flexible hours. And she flipped properties and was able to support her family. So I know you worked in the real estate business for a number of years. Sure. The hours are flexible. They are.

Although they can be quite extensive. Yeah. And a lot of time is not the most convenient hours either. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of nights, a lot of weekends, things like that. Cynthia felt like she needed help managing everything. So she hired a nanny for the children.

In the summer of 2012, she hired 19-year-old Angel Betrase Estrada. to care for David. Angel told Snap that he first met David at a local care facility. And a couple months later, David asked him to work as a private caregiver at his home. You know, that ALS is a such a debilitating disease. Yeah, it really is. And you know, most people at a certain point need almost around the clock care. In November 2012, Cynthia's father. And, you know, most people, Cynthia's father offered to send in a man named Charles Chuck Todd to help out the family. Chuck Todd was a fellow veteran and family friend. He was 61 years old.

And he was looking for a change after his marriage failed. He was from Washington State. But due to some medical issues, it was better for him to be in a warm place. This was according to Detective James Lamerson of the Prescott PD. So Chuck ended up taking care of David at night in exchange for them allowing him to live in their basement. Maybe a fair trade. Could be. Yeah.

Now, going from Washington State to Arizona, pretty big climate change. It is. And I know there are individuals that because of medical reasons, you know, they just can't handle the cold or they need to be in those warmer climates. that does happen. Just before noon, on November 16th, 2012, Angel found David, unresponsive in his bed. Angel called the Prescott PD, non-emergency line. Officers and paramedics got to the house around 1145.

Angel showed them to the main bedroom, where they found David, unresponsive and cold. David's wife, 48-year-old Cynthia Mueller, was at his bedside. it was said that she was visibly distraught. Angel told Snap, when the authority showed up, Cynthia was still on the floor balling.

Okay. Is that out of the ordinary? No, sounds like somebody that's really upset about what just happened. And you would think, you know, we talk about it a lot, right?

How do we think people would act? Sure. Your spouse is cold, unresponsive. You would be beside. you wouldn't be able to control your emotions. Most people, right. I think would fall into that category.

Now we also talk about what emotions are real, what emotions are put on, and we may get into that as we go along. The responding officers notified David's doctor about his death and asked him to sign the death certificate. David's doctor apparently was surprised by the news because he didn't think. that David was at the point in, you know, I guess with his illness where, you know, he was going to die anytime soon. So it didn't add up to his doctor? No, no, I don't think it did. He refused to sign the death certificate because he didn't think David should have died from ALS at that point in time.

Detectives were then called in to examine David. Detective Keith Crabtree of the Prescott PD said he was laying there peacefully. There was no blood, no sign of a struggle. There was no sign of anything. Kenneth Morley, a former lieutenant, added, he looked like he was well cared for. He's face up. He was clean.

It just looked like a natural passing. So, you know, both of these guys were on the snapped episode. Right. Talking about it. But nothing really alarming jumping out at them. Not so far. Lieutenant Morley said that the police

began investigating David's death because his cause of death was unclear. The Daily Courier quoted him as saying, hospice had been at their house the day before and told them there was nothing they could do because he was not dying in the next six months. Okay, so let's analyze that for a second. Somebody called hospice to come out. I don't know who that was. Yeah. They come out and say, there's no reason for us to be here. Yeah, way too early. He's not going to be dying anytime soon. Okay, so that's backing up his doctor's statement.

And adding to the suspicion. Oh, absolutely. Detectives wanted to talk to all three people in the house, but Cynthia was still very distraught and not able to talk with them. Investigators spoke with Chuck Todd and Angel Betrrez. Angel explained his role as a professional caregiver. According to Snap, when Detective Crabtree asked Chuck to explain his relationship to the family, he said he was a longtime family friend and was there to help out the family.

Angel and Chuck talked about the events before David's death. Angel said that David usually woke up around 930 to 945. he was concerned when he was still asleep at 11 o'clock. Angel called David's name, tapped on his foot, which was poking out of the blanket. He felt that David's foot was cold. He then touched his shin. It was also cold. So he called out for Chuck and told him that David had passed away.

Cynthia was running errands at the time. Angel called the police, and Chuck called Cynthia. They said she needed to come home because, there had been an emergency. She wanted to know what was happening and refused to come until they told her, but, but they insisted that they needed to tell her at home. Cynthia got home just a few minutes before first responders arrived. She went inside and Chuck told her that David died in his sleep. Cynthia hit David on his chest, tried to perform CPR. She even slapped him. She appeared shocked and fell to the ground crime. So she's either devastated by what she's seeing or she is attempting to win the Oscar.

Yeah. Yeah, either one. And a lot of times in these situations, if you didn't know the outcome, which we kind of do. And we give it away up front, you would be kind of mulling it over. We kind of know which way this thing's going. But there's a lot of details that we gave out. There was, there was a couple that I kind of wanted to touch on. If you have to make that call, and let's assuming that what they said happened really happened. Right. Would you want to tell someone like that over the phone,

or would you insist that they come back? I could understand that. Sure, yeah. If you know they're going to be too strut. And driving. And driving, you know, you're going to try to avoid that.

Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely see why someone would insist on that. detectives asked the two men when they last saw David alive. Chuck said he heard David snoring around 2 a.m. The police believed that Chuck and Angel were telling the truth. And again, like we said, really, there was nothing to indicate that David was killed. The signs just weren't there.

Investigators didn't plan to do an autopsy because they felt as though David's illness was the likely cause of death. his remains were turned over to his family. David had instructed that his remains be given to a medical research facility. His body was given to a facility in Phoenix on November 16th, 2012. So obviously, he's factoring in that he has ALS. Sure. He's made the instruction that upon his death, his body is to be sent to a medical research.

facility. It's kind of amazing. I think so. Selfless. I don't know if I could do something like that because you know what they're going to do at this medical research facility. But without people making this type of decision, you know, how can these researchers be expected to find a cure? Right. Pretty tough. Really tough. Unless you can study people who, you know, actually have. have the disease. On November 24th, 2012, Cynthia Mueller called 911 in Henderson, Nevada. She said she was being stalked and harassed by a man who was following her while she was driving. She identified the man following her as Charles Top. Cynthia's attorney Greg Clark said that Chuck was trying to run her off the road. Cynthia said that her children were in the car with her and she seemed fearful for their

lives. She pulled into a gas station and told store patrons what was happening. Chuck pulled into the gas station behind her. Police arrived. They arrested Chuck, but released Cynthia. Within an hour of questioning, Detective James Lamerson from the Prescott PD received a call from the Henderson PD, that they had Chuck Todd in custody, Henderson discussed Chuck's statement to the police. Chuck said that after David died, Cynthia thought it would be good for her and the kids to go on vacation. They went to an RV park where Chuck was staying and he took the kids to a water park. Chuck and Cynthia got into an argument and Cynthia packed up and left.

According to Snap, Chuck said he never tried to follow Cynthia and had done. just crossed pass with her on the way to the gas station. So his claim was that this was all a big misunderstanding. He wasn't following her. He just happened to see her and pulled into the gas station. So just a big misunderstanding. According to him. Yeah.

Now the detective who was interviewing him could see that Chuck was getting agitated. Chuck eventually blurted out something to the effect of, oh, you want to know what really going on. She and I just committed a murder in Prescott. This was according to Detective James Lamerson. So Charles Todd was arrested on November 24, 2012, after he admitted his involvement in David Mueller's death, according to Lieutenant Kenneth Morley, Todd said he was a family friend and spent time with Cynthia in Prescott, Arizona, as well as Henderson, Nevada. The Daily Courier reported that he admitted he and Cynthia were having an affair. He also claimed that he assisted her in suffocating David.

He didn't stay quiet too long. No, no, not at all. Now, let's take a step back for a minute if what he is saying is true. If you're Cynthia Mueller, why are you calling the police on this guy? Exactly. To even put him in a position to talk to the police. That doesn't seem smart. No, because you're just asking for something to come out that you don't want out there.

Now, if he really was trying to run her off the road, she was fearful for her life, maybe she felt as though she had no other choice, but you're taking a big chance. Well, a huge, huge chance. Detectives reached out to David's doctor, who connected them to the research facility that had David's remains. The facility said that they no longer had David's remains because he had a condition that would not allow them to do research on him. So they sent his body to a crematorium. Well, that's not good for the investigation. Well, it wouldn't have been if David had already been cremated.

His body was scheduled to be cremated that very same day. Detectives were scrambling to try to find his body, assess what was going on with Chuck Todd, as well as trying to get a search warrant for Cynthia's home. And thankfully, they were able to secure David's remain. And this is, you know, something that you have to talk about. in any case and it's timing. You know, we're talking about them going out to try to find the body so they can examine it so they can do some testing.

And the body is scheduled to be cremated that same day they're there. Yeah. If a person says, you know what, let's go tomorrow. How big of a difference does it make in this case as it unfolds? Timing is such a crucial factor. in a lot of ways. So David's body was located and taken back to the medical examiner's office. Detectives decided to speak with Cynthia.

And they did what was referred to in the research as a ruse telephone call. So they had a detective pretend to be a representative from the research facility. This person told Cynthia that he saw David's body. And it seemed as though he had not died. from natural causes. The detective said that he believed Cynthia was the one who killed David, and if she didn't pay him,

he would go to the police. It's a good attempt at a ruse. I always like the things that, you know, police try to come up with. Okay, this one's a little out there. You know,

I love the ones where they catch people by saying they're a winner, they've won something. All they have to do is come down and, you know, claim their prize. Well, there is no prize. There's a set of handcuffs waiting for you waiting for them. Cynthia didn't fall for this and she just ended up, you know, hanging up the phone.

A judge then signed a search warrant for the house. Cynthia told the police about the call when they got there. She was taken to the police station during the search and she spoke with Detective Lamerson. During this conversation, she kept directing everything towards. Chuck Todd. She talked about meeting him at the RV park that she just left. She said that Chuck was married and around her father's age. She thought he was nice, but didn't really think about him until her dad suggested that he move in. According to Snap, she was excited to have help. But once Chuck got there, she claimed he was coming on to her and alluded that they were going to be a

couple. Detectives tried to ask her if Chuck killed Todd so that he could have her all to himself, but Cynthia wasn't really answering their questions. About two hours in, Cynthia told Detective Lamerson that she heard Chuck say he strangled somebody. When Lambertson repeated this back to her, she said, yeah, and I think he said he strangled David. When asked why, she said, because he loves me. He told me. Okay. You know, These interrogations are always interesting. Sure, yeah. And most of them kind of go down the same way.

The beginning is, I don't know what you're talking about. I have no clue. I wasn't there. I wasn't involved. I don't know. Nothing. And then it's like eventually, for whatever reason, people wear down. Yeah.

Or they just start to see the writing on the wall that they're not going to be able to talk themselves out of whatever it is. Right. I always think that most people believe that they're smart enough and crafty enough to be able to talk to the police and give them something that's going to make them go away. My thought is very rarely, is that the case? Exactly. Yeah.

That a guilty person is going to be able to do that. Just like when your kids are lying to you, you know that eventually you're going to get to the bottom line, but you've got to go through that little dance at first and eventually you get where you need to be. I actually think that's a great comparison because I think in a lot of kids' minds, they think they're going to be able to fool you. Yeah. But very rarely are they able to do it. Cynthia ended the interview after making this statement. On November 25th, the medical examiner performed David's autopsy. The ME determined that David did not. die from ALS, but the cause of death was inconclusive. However, in December 2012, the Daily Courier

reported that the autopsy results were consistent with Charles Todd's story. A doctor's report and the autopsy indicated that David's ALS was not terminal. So, you know, even though Cynthia had kind of given the police something, she still denied all involvement in David's. it's death. Yeah, she had nothing to do with it. No, she never, yeah, she never went that far. She was not arrested at this time. The investigation continued. Detectives traveled to Henderson to speak to Chuck Todd. Chuck said that he made everything up to get revenge on Cynthia for ending their affair. He claimed the affair started six

months earlier when he met Cynthia at the RV park in Boulder City, Nevada. Cynthia was visiting her dad. They were introduced to each other. Charles said that this was where they began their affair. And then over the next six months, Cynthia often left David with Angel to have sex with Chuck. Charles claimed that a couple of weeks before David died, Cynthia asked him to move in with her.

After David died, Cynthia was no longer interested in him. This is what he said. she ended their relationship at the RV park. He was so angry that he made up the story about murder. It's a big story to make up. Yeah. Do you think maybe you could figure out a story that does not involve you murdering someone? Exactly.

There's probably a better way to go about that. I mean, you go from zero all the way to 10? Yeah. Maybe go down to two or three. That's what I'm thinking. To start out. Yeah. Detectives didn't believe Chuck.

Shocker. And it didn't really take all that long for him to admit the truth. Chuck claimed that on November 15th, Cynthia asked him how to kill David quickly. Chuck said that he had seen someone being suffocated with a plastic bag and a pillow in a movie. He didn't think much of this conversation until they went into David's room around 2 a.m. to check on him and Cynthia got out a plastic bag. They wrapped it around David's head.

Chuck said he held down David's right arm while Cynthia smothered David with the pillow. He also said David tried to resist them. So many times we've talked about, you know, a loved one killing their spouse. Right. And how terrifying that is. You know, picture David. Here's a guy who has limitations. Sure.

Obviously, because he has this disease. ALS, he needs people to take care of him. He has his wife who should be trusted implicitly. Sure. He's got a friend of his wife's dad and then a caretaker, a hired caretaker. All that you should be able to trust. You should be able to. Your wife for sure. Yes. And especially if your wife's around the caregiver at the time. And she's there, right? Then all of a sudden she puts a plastic bag over your head while this other guy restrained you. I mean, I just can't even imagine the thoughts that are going through your head as you're struggling. Yeah. Because you just can't believe that your wife would, would do this to you. It's just would seem like a nightmare. And this is not,

you know, not to get too graphic, but this is not a shot to the back of the head. This is going to take a little bit. You're going to see what's happening to you. Yeah. Yeah. As it's happening, and it's a plastic bag, you're going to be able to see your wife. You know it's her. Chuck said the affair had been going on since March 2012. But when David died, Cynthia refused to continue seeing him and said that she wouldn't need him anymore. During his confession, Chuck said he wasn't going to be the fall guy.

So I think, again, you have to talk about the actions of Cynthia. Mueller. Okay. You coerced a guy, what, 15 years your senior. Right. To do something that you wanted done. Maybe sex was involved. Sounds like it. You know, they had a relationship, whatever it was. But then what you wanted to happen happened. And then all of a sudden you're going to say to this man who knows, everything that happened, you know what, I don't need you anymore because the deed is done. It almost seems cliche. You know, you see things like this or you hear about stories like this where somebody is invited into some plot and then once the dirty deed is completed, they no longer want them around. And that person turns on them and they're always surprised when they turn on them.

Yeah. And you got to think, why would you be surprised? Why would you turn on? on them at that moment. If you're going to turn on them, if you're, if you, if you want them out of your life now, maybe wait a while, you know? Well, and, you know, maybe she thought there's no way he's going to tell because he's not going to implicate himself. Yeah. But when he gets in trouble with police and things start going down, what's the first thing

he's going to do? He's going to say, hey, I'm not taking the rap for this by myself. Right. according to Detective Lamberson, Chuck was under the impression. There was a lot of money coming his way. After David's body was delivered to the research facility, he and Cynthia took the kids to the RV park where Cynthia ended the relationship. This is what, you know, ultimately made him very upset.

Chuck was charged with first degree murder, but the police needed more evidence to arrest Cynthia. So they reached out to Angel. Estrada and his helper Juan Navarez. They said the Mueller's had a toxic marriage. Angel told Snap, I observed some good times, but it was quickly overshadowed by all the tension and all the arguments between Cynthia and David. Apparently the couple disagreed over what was supposed to be done with their money. They were arguing often. And David had expressed fear for his life. David told Juan more than once that he was scared and said, they're trying to kill me in this house.

David believed Cynthia was trying to poison him. Bad enough, he's going through this philitating disease, but then have to worry about the one person that should always have your back trying to poison you. Is now the one person that you think is trying to do you in? Yeah. Angel told Snap, he goes into a state of where he's delirious. almost. He thinks that people are out to kill him. He would have days where he was completely fine or other days where he was just completely lost. And so at the time, I didn't think about it until

later on, but that was the first indication. So, you know, I get what he's saying. It sounds like David had good days and bad day. And so when he's saying some of these things about, you know, he thinks his wife is trying to kill him. I think Angel 1-1 thought, okay, this is a bad day. Right. And obviously he, this is not true, but he's just having one of his bad days. In March 2012, David was convinced that Cynthia was trying to kill him. He moved to an assisted living facility while Cynthia and the kids were visiting her dad in Boulder

City. Cynthia was angry and moved him back home. How sad is that? And how fearful does someone have to be to voluntarily leave their home to go into an assisted living facility? Yeah. Now, I don't think the people around him understood exactly what, you know, he was saying. Or they understood the words. They didn't understand the magnitude.

I think they were writing it off maybe as part of his disease. Yeah. Again, back to maybe having a bad day. But it was said that David was scared when he got back home. According to Snap, Angel said that when Chuck Todd showed up, he noticed what he called the open sexuality between Chuck and Cynthia. And to him, he thought it was crossing the boundaries. A couple weeks before David was killed, Angel was talking to Cynthia.

And she asked him a disturbing hypothetical question. if you were to murder someone, how would you do it? Well, that's a red flag. Well, I'm just, I'm putting it in the pile of things that Cynthia Mueller did that to me make absolutely no sense. Right. If you're ultimately going to murder somebody, do you start asking other people about, hey, if you were going to murder someone, how would you do it?

Do you not think that's going to come out later on? Especially one of their caregivers. Yeah. It just, it does not make sense. She asked how he would kill someone and get away with it. According to former Lieutenant Morley, she came back with, and I think kind of in a lighthearted tone, you know, well, what about smothering him? So now it's not just hypothetical. You're asking questions about how it ultimately ends up happening.

That's just dumb. The police learn more about. David and Cynthia's conflicts over their finances, Detective Lamerson told Snap that Cynthia became extremely angry when she received the first bill from the assisted living facility. So according to him, if there was a cataclysmic event that really started to downspiral, that may have been it right there. Now, anybody who has had someone in their lives in an assistant. living facility knows they are very very expensive yeah they could be four thousand up to

fifteen thousand dollars a month in the states yeah i mean they obviously there's a there's a wide range but they're not cheap because you're paying for you know around the clock care nurses meals lodging all of it detectives looked into the family finances and learned that David and Cynthia were struggling with their mortgage, bills and credit cards, their main source of income was the proceeds from David's life insurance. His original policy was worth $500,000, but he withdrew $200,000 and put it in a bank account that Cynthia could not access. He was using this money to pay for his treatment. And that's sad right there that he had to put in an account to make sure that it was there to use for his treatments.

Well, I think it shows you the level of distrust, what was going on in their relationship at that point, just the fact that he felt as though he needed to do that. Detactives also found that Cynthia had signed up for dating sites and was going on dates with men. And apparently, Gibbs, she was telling them that her husband was dead. Oh, okay. She's just a real winner. Maybe she even put that in her online program.

I don't know. It also came out that she had searched online for Dr. Jack Kavorkin. I think most people know who Dr. Jack was a controversial physician and proponent of physician-assisted suicide. Again, is there one smoking gun here? Maybe not. But when you start to add up all these things, at the very least, you'd say not making her look great. Well, but she's going to to continue to do things to make her not look so great. Yeah, police followed her around, right? They're trying to build a case against her. They learned that she attempted to withdraw the remainder of David's life insurance policy. Cynthia also forged a power of attorney signature in order to get two cars and access David's bank account. So she wanted the other $300,000 and two cars

She couldn't be happy with one. She wanted to get access to two cars. Got to have two. Yeah. Cynthia Mueller was arrested on April 4th, 2013. The police also arrested 42-year-old Travis Northcutt for failing to register as a sex offender. Apparently, he was living with Cynthia at the time. The Daily Courier had spoken with Cynthia in January of 2013, and she denied Charles Todd's story.

She said she never asked him to come to Prescott, that she had no involvement in David's death. She also expressed her frustration that people believe Todd saying, I have done a lot in this town. This has been total harassment of me. I have women in my church circles that are upset. I have political ambition. And this is killing my reputation. She has political aspirations. She's really trying to be portrayed as a victim here.

Yeah, I can't run for office. The women in my church are upset with me. My reputation has been damaged. Now, all of that would be bad if you were thought of as the prime suspect and a murder that you had nothing to do with. Obviously, we're going to find out that's not true in the case of Cynthia Mueller. Lieutenant Morley said Cynthia was arrested after an investigator found additional information. in evidence that linked her to David's death. The officer who investigated the case reported that he found an extensive history of domestic

violence between David and Cynthia in October 2012. David reported that Cynthia was trying to poison him. There was also an ongoing adult protective services investigation about David's care and treatment. So I'm going to add this to the list of things as well. for Cynthia. There are government agencies looking into you and specifically the treatment of your husband, David. Right.

He has said you've tried to poison him. All of this is of record. And so it makes it even more confusing that, you know, she would think she'd be able to get away with something. I just don't understand it. I think she really believed she was going to find a way to be cleared. of all this. Or that it would just never come back on her. Yeah.

Nobody's going to talk. Nobody's going to figure it out. Both Charles and Cynthia pleaded not guilty to first degree murder. On May 12th, 2014, a judge ruled that Cynthia Mueller was competent to stand trial after having a mental health evaluation. On December 10th of that year, Charles Todd pleaded guilty to second degree murder in exchange for testifying against Cynthia. Okay, that's not good for Cynthia. Yeah, she's going definitely have a battle in front of her now. Yeah, I think she had one already. But now you have

someone who is confessed to being part of the murder who is going to testify against her. That's really bad. Oh, yeah, the camps are split now, right? He's looking out for him. And by doing so, she's going to go down. Well, and let me go back to, you know, some of these things I said I was putting in a pile. You know, these things that she did that would ultimately come back to bite her, ending the relationship with him right after David was killed. Yeah, if she just would have been patient and not broke the relationship off right away and slowly broke it off, maybe they would have never got the body, would have been cremated.

Maybe he would have calmed down. and been okay with just some type of ending of the relationship. Oh, maybe she would have gotten her hands on some money and paid him. We're not trying to tell people how to get away with stuff. I'm just pointing out these things that she did that really led to her downfall. And ultimately, you know, Chuck Todd taking a deal to testify against her. According to KSL, Cynthia cried in court, as Charles described how he, he helped Cynthia suffocate David, he said Cynthia freaked out and ran out of the bedroom,

which left him to clean up. After Judge Jennifer Campbell accepted Todd's guilty plea, she considered different defense emotions, including a motion to suppress Cynthia's online dating activity. Cynthia's attorney Greg Clark argued that this information was irrelevant, but prosecutor Steve Young said it was relevant because Cynthia told people that David was dead before he actually died. Campbell said she would make a ruling after she examined the evidence. And I'm always fascinated when we get trial information. I do like to see, you know, what motions are filed.

What's, what's, what does each side try to either have excluded or fight to have included in the trial. You know, when you talk about this online dating activity, all right, I don't know, you could have a married person do that and tell people that their spouse was dead. To me, that's not a Perry Mason moment. Now, it doesn't make her look good at all. So all this stuff is coming back to haunt her. Yeah, all of these things that she did that I said were strange, questionable.

You know, let's put them in this pile. they're going to come out at trial for sure. Greg Clark also said he wanted to see evidence of a homicide. KSL reported that he said the county's medical examiner was unable to determine a cause of death. They have a medical examiner who can't say it's a homicide and I have a defendant who says I didn't do it. Steve Young argued that David's doctor wouldn't sign the death certificate because he didn't believe David's ALS was advanced enough to kill him. Cynthia Mueller's murder trial started on May 20th, 2015. According to the Daily Courier, the prosecution argued that Cynthia was frustrated, that her husband was bedridden, delusional, in using up his life insurance to pay for treatment. Deputy County Attorney Steve Young stated

that Cynthia approached Chuck Todd and said, David's going to die anyway. What can we do? We do? We're do to speed this along. Such a cold person. And that is a cold, cold, hearted thing to say. According to Chuck, Cynthia asked him to help take care of David, and a few days later,

she said he was dying. She asked, how could they make it quicker? Chuck suggested that they suffocate David by covering his face with a plastic bag and pillow. AZ Central reported that, according to Steve Young, Chuck wanted to have a real relationship,

relationship after David died, but Cynthia decided she didn't need him anymore. You know, we talked about that. And so, you know, to me, now you have kind of a scorn lover type scenario. Yeah. This Chuck Todd was doing something illegal. He knew it was illegal. He thought at the end of it, he was going to have a relationship with this woman with whom I'm sure he was enamored.

Oh, of course. And she basically said, nope, don't need you. We're done. Did what I needed you to do? Now moving on. Yeah, it's basically I got out of you what I needed and now I no longer need you. Young said that Cynthia was angry that David took out in advance on half of his life insurance policy to pay for treatment. I think anybody that's in a true loving relationship would never be upset about that.

Now, there's one thing about knowing that you're going to need money later on. But when is that going to outweigh spending money for treatment to keep your loved one a lot? Yeah, comfortable. And if it does outweigh, then something's wrong. Yeah. Young brought out evidence in court that Cynthia used her power of attorney to get the titles to two cars and empty a bank account. The defense argued that Cynthia didn't have an affair with Chuck Todd. They tried to paint Chuck as an obsessed man.

When Cynthia refused to have a relationship with him, he wanted to get revenge. Defense attorney Greg Clark argued that Charles Todd was the killer and the murder was part of his plan to be with Cynthia. Cynthia was preparing for David's death by making financial decisions for him. And again, this is what you have in every trial. Yeah. The prosecution paints one picture. The defense tries to paint an entirely different picture. But the prosecution had Charles Topp, who testified at trial as part of his plea deal.

On May 28, 2015, two witnesses testified that David Mueller planned to put $300,000 in a trust fund for his two children. But his plan was thwarted. by Cynthia's unwillingness to sign the transfer. The Daily Courier reported that the lawyer who set up the trust fund in April 2012 testified that the trust was essentially empty when created and would be funded by part of David's $500,000 life insurance disbursement. Angela Walker, an attorney testified that the trust was never funded because the disbursement required a spouse's signature and Cynthia didn't sign.

Of course not. Why would she sign that? She wants the money. Brant Smith, David's financial advisor also testified. When asked by attorney Steve Young, if he was unable to get Cynthia's agreement to use the funds, he said yes. When he continued with, she made it very clear that Greg Clark objected. So he was getting ready to add some color.

Some damaging statements. And her attorney shut him down. The Daily Courier reported that Clark objected each time. Young asked either witness questions that would elicit the response that Cynthia had refused to sign off. However, Smith did say that Cynthia said she wasn't interested at all and that her father did not speak highly of Smith's company. A lot of times we talk about the interesting.

aspect of a trial as it relates to evidence. What's allowed in, you know, what's what's not allowed in. You know, here we have very specific wording or phrasing that's either allowed or not allowed, right? And that's very, you know, fascinating in its, in its own right? Because I'm sure that this guy was going to say something that was not going to paint her in a good light. and the attorney probably smartly. Right. Stopped it. Tried to shut him down.

And to me, that's one of those things where, you know, does a jury ever know the full entire truth? And my thought is no, because there are some things that are not allowed, right? They're ruled inadmissible. Yeah. That are real. But, you know, we're ruled to be prejudicial or whatever the ruling is. And you can argue rightly or wrongly about the ruling. I just,

I guess my thought is the jury never really gets to see everything laid out. Very rarely. They, they see things presented by each side with a, with a twist, right? The light is shown the way that each side wants it to be shown. Yeah, you're going to show them what you want them. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, again, I've said, but the jury has a very tough job because they've got to decipher not only very scientific evidence, but also, you know, does this evidence mean what the prosecution says it means or does it mean what the defense says it means? On June 3rd, 2015, David's doctor Sam Downing testified that he saw David as his ALS progressed. David had been in hospice care since spring 2012, but it was determined that his case wasn't appropriate for hospice because those patients are expected to die

within six months. And so I'm taking from that that he wasn't. Just as his doctor, you know, said earlier, Sam Downing said that David's ALS had progressed to where he suffered from significant weakness in his legs, trunk, one arm, and had difficulty with fine finger movement, but didn't have trouble breathing or swallowing, which is normally the cause of death in ALS patients. According to the Daily Courier, when asked by the prosecutor, Downing confirmed that David was not in the end stage of ALS at the time of his death. He said that he refused to sign David's death certificate because he didn't feel confident that he knew what the cause of death was. He confirmed that he felt David died prematurely and his death was not dead.

due to ALS. And again, it keeps coming up time and time again, but it's a big deal. Sure it is. Right. This is not a totally healthy individual who suddenly died. This is a person who had a very serious illness. Yeah. ALS is a very serious illness.

But the key is the doctor is saying, you know, his illness had not progressed to the point where he should have died or, or he would have expected him to die. In answering a question, Downing said that a natural death was possible due to things like a blood clot, heart attack, or stroke. But he said, you know, these would have shown up in the autopsy.

The defense called on a woman named Natasha, who was a former nanny. Natasha said she was in the home on the night of the murder. Todd and Cynthia were in the garage, smoking and drinking wine. Cynthia became extremely drunk and fell down in the hallway. Natasha helped her into bed. She said that she stayed in Cynthia's bed with her all night.

The defense proposed that Todd killed David on his own in an attempt to earn Cynthia's love. However, Chuck had testified that Natasha was asleep and he and Cynthia went to the room together. It can't be both. It can't be both, right? So the jury's hearing both, they've got to make a decision. Right. So the nanny helps her into bed, climbs into bed with her and sleeps there all night.

Could happen. That's a possibility. And sometimes that's all it takes, right? Is sowing those seeds of doubt, reasonable doubt. But the jury didn't buy it. On June 11, 2015, Cynthia Mueller was found guilty of first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit first-degree murder. fraudulent schemes and artifices and unlawful use of power of attorney. That artifices gets you every time.

Yeah. Fraudulent schemes and artifices. You don't hear that one very often. On June 15th, Charles Todd was sentenced to 16 years in prison. Todd's attorney, Andrew Fowlick, asked Judge Campbell for a lesser sentence saying that Todd had a liver transplant, heart problems, and probably wouldn't survive 16 years. The Daily Courier reported that Fowlick said that Todd was partially motivated to kill David

because of the physical abuse of his children. Fowlick noted that ALS does cause people to become violent. He then said he wanted to tell what happened. He wanted to get that off his chest. So I never found how much of this actually came out in trial if it's. did. But obviously Todd told his attorney this because the attorney's relaying it to reporters that Chuck Todd, according to him, thought David Mueller was abusing his children. And that's partially why he decided to help kill him. Now, is that true? Or as we often say and think,

are these people after the fact trying to put a spin on it? Right. Yeah, I admitted to doing this. Here's another reason why I did it. Yeah, maybe it will get me less years in prison. Or make me look a little better. Right. I stopped child abuse.

Again, I don't know how much of it came up in trial. I don't know if there was any evidence at all that pointed to that. For me, it's kind of hard to believe because we just listed out all of, the conditions and and things that David was experiencing with his ALS, right? He had trouble with movement in one arm. He had trouble walking. Does it mean he couldn't have abused his children? No, but what's the likelihood? And who do you believe? I guess it comes down to that. Falick argued that to state had a case against Cynthia because of Charles's confession, David's body was going to be cremated, but the police stopped it in time. Now, that's probably a true statement. I think so.

Yeah, if Chuck Todd doesn't come forward and confess, like you said, this thing drags on, drags out, David Mueller's body is cremated and they're not able to perform an autopsy. and then I think they would have had a much harder time moving forward. I think at the very least, it would have been much harder, if not impossible. Chuck said in court, I'd just like to apologize to all the families involved, especially the children. On August 19, 2015, Cynthia Mueller was sentenced to life in prison with no chance for early release. Now, that I like.

That's the hammer. Yes. I mean, it's not death, but you will die in prison. No chance of getting out. Yeah, she's got to sit there every day thinking about what she did wrong and how greedy of a person she decided to be. But will she? I always wonder that. You know, you and I sit here and we think, okay, these people are going away.

They have to sit and think about this every day. they have to live with this. Do they even care? Does it even sadden them? Yes, they don't want to be stuck in prison, but do they really even care about what they did? And I don't know the answer, and I'm sure it differs in every situation.

Cynthia said in court that it's really easy to manipulate a jury with 12 people when nine are women. I thought that was just the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You are essentially as a woman saying women are easily manipulated. And so I didn't have a chance because I had nine women on this jury. No problem manipulating them. That smart, is she?

No, and I got that sense all the way throughout. She might have been a smart person. IQ wise, I don't know. But she just did dumb thing after dumb thing. And that's separate from, you know, the criminal act of murdering your husband. She claimed she and her children were victimized by the ignorance of late stage ALS.

And then she called Chuck Todd deranged saying, I have been exploited. I have been used and abused by this man. When Cynthia said, now I have to go to prison. And what? Wait for an appeal. There was no reason for me to kill my dying husband.

the judge responded, a jury of your peers disagrees with you. They listened to your version of events and they determined that they didn't believe you, which I think is an awesome statement. Yeah. You know, she's basically saying, I got dealt a bad hand. I got, you know, railroaded. Right. Chuck Todd lied on me.

And the judge is saying, hey, these people heard all your stuff and they called BS on you. Yeah. Charles Todd died in prison in December 2016. Per the Arizona DOC website, Cynthia's appeal was denied in 2017. She argued that she was deprived of her right to testify. And the court erred in admitting unfairly prejudicial testimony and erred by reading jury questions aloud in open court that weren't supposed to be answered by the witness who was testifying. So obviously the appeals court didn't agree with those arguments. No.

Cynthia Mueller still denies having an affair and also denies murdering her husband. That's her right. She can do that. Well, and there's really no incentive for her to come forward now, especially if she still has appeals left to go. Yeah. And I'm sure she doesn't want her kids to think negatively of her. But do you think they don't? already. I mean, obviously that would cement it. Sure. If he came out and said, yes, I had the affair. Yes, I murdered your father. Right. But she's in prison for the rest of her life for for murdering him. So I can't imagine there's a lot of Christmas cards and well wishes from the kids. The murder of David Mueller is another example of how money can motivate people to do horrible things.

And we've seen it time and time again, right? There's that old saying, money is the root of all evil. I don't know if it's the root of all evil, but it's the root of a lot of evil because people do things for money that astound me. Oh, shock me. And sometimes not big dollar amounts either. Yeah, I mean, it's all shocking regardless of the amount. Sometimes it is a little more shocking when it's $1,000. Yeah.

You know, somebody's paid $2,000 to murder somebody. $2,000. Go get a job at McDonald's. You don't have to kill anybody. Make the curly fries at Arby's. I love curly fries. Yeah, you do. I do.

But, you know, again, that's when you talk about money, there's no doubt that for some people, it clouds their judgment to a degree that, you know, most of us, can't understand. No. We all like money. Who doesn't like money? Of course. Yeah. You want money. You want more money. You do. But most people aren't willing to cross any line. Now, they might bend a line here and there, but they're not going to murder somebody. They're not going to, you know, commit some crime that's going to land them in the pen. Right. But then there are others, whether they are so desperate or so greedy that they don't even care about the lot. No, they're doing anything they can to get that money.

Yeah. Yeah, it's shocking sometimes. Yeah, and based on statements from people involved in the case, it really does seem as though David Mueller spent his final months living in fear of his wife because I think he knew that she was after his life insurance money. It's really a shame because you know he's living in fear of what the disease was doing to him. And you know, struggling with that. Yeah.

To then have to worry about one person that you should never have to worry about doing terrible things to you. I mean, that disease is horrible for people who have a great family structure around them. But he's going through it. And then also keeping one eye open because he thinks his wife is trying to kill him. Yeah. And ultimately he was right. You know, that, that's the, the sad part about it. But that's it for our case on Cynthia Mueller, barring some, you know, wacky appeal decision. And I don't know how many appeals she'll get. You don't get as many with life. Right. As you do with, with the death sentence. But barring something, you know, outrageous happening in the court system, this woman's going to die in. prison and I'm fine with that. You know, the fact that she'll never get out, I'm totally okay with. I think what you have to make the determination on is, are you okay with the sentence for Charles Todd?

Now, I know he died. He didn't spend that long in prison because he died like a year later, but 16 years. Is that enough? I mean, people, you know, have to form their own. opinion on that. But if that's what it took to get the guilty conviction against her, and it might have been. And it is worth it. And it might have been. You're absolutely right. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yes, sir. Yeah, my name's Glenn. I was listening to your podcast about Gary Arthur Bishop. And my family was staying in a hotel in Salt Lake, and I must have been around eight or nine. And my parents had left for a little while. I got a knock on the motel door.

I was there by myself and my two little brothers, and he was trying to give us some comic books and trying to get into the hotel. For some reason, he turned and walked away. I really didn't know who it was. It was just strange. A few years later, I seen his face on the news when they had caught him,

and I realized that it was the same guy and I'd never told anybody about this, but, yeah, it was a pretty interesting experience. Still kind of sticks with me. Anyway, thanks for your podcast. Enjoying quite a bit. Thanks, but. Well, I've said it before, but we, you know, we always love when people, you know,

call in with stories like this, they're, they're scary, right? This kind of brush. Yeah. With a killer. It was close, too. It was. It's scary because you think in the blink of an eye, that scenario could have gone very badly.

And, you know, he said, well, later on, when I figured it out, it was scary. I bet it was. Sure. I think it would be for anyone. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Janet, and I am in Denver, the Mile High City.

I was just listening to one of your older episodes. I actually joined Patreon a couple, maybe a month ago now. And I've just been really enjoying listening to you guys, and you guys make me laugh when it's appropriate and make me cry when it's appropriate. So there's a lot of podcasts out there that don't have that really good balance that you guys do. So I appreciate it.

One thing that I wanted to say is it doesn't sound like you guys watched Parks and Rec. But there's a dating rule on there that you guys may want to be aware of. So the rule is you can date somebody who is half your age plus seven years. So if you are 30, you would take that. half, which is 15, and you would add 7, so you could date somebody who is 22, and it is quote unquote acceptable. So I just thought I would let you guys know that and let you know how much I appreciate you guys and that I love listening to your podcast and I will continue to listen and keep your own time ticking and I will listen to you when I can. Thank you so much,

guys. Bye. All right. Cool. I love Parks and Rec and I've seen the whole thing multiple times. I just don't remember that. It seems like I've heard something like that before. What's interesting is that, you know, that means you can date somebody that's 42 years old. Wait, how old are you making me? Well, you got to do the math in your head. That means you can date somebody that's 30, I don't know.

You can't put me on the spot like that. Oh, really? You would think somebody who's in Mensa would be able to do that kind of math very, very quickly. I made you 70 years old. Yeah. Take that, you know, half it, 35 plus seven, that's 42. Man, they can be age like that. I know. You're not 70 years old, but again, I just proved you're not in Minnesota. No, I am. I was playing it dumb. Oh, okay. Just for fun, you know. Hey guys, this is Dee Dee. I'm calling from North Carolina and just wanted to let you guys know that I enjoy the podcast so much. Um, just ran into it about a month.

months ago and I've gone back and listened to everything from July. I listened to your podcast as much as I can all day to catch up and just wanted to let you know that you do a great job given the details and I just love it. Thanks. Bye. Thanks for the kind words. We really appreciate that. The one thing I know, Gibbs, because I hear it from so many people, it may take a while, but you will catch up. You will. Now it becomes harder as the years go on because we keep adding more episodes. I always go back and listen to it in different languages. Yeah, just to keep your skill sharp.

Exactly. I get that. Yeah. I get that. All right, buddy. We had no mail bag. Nope. This week.

So that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.