True Crime All The Time - Damien Guerrero and Kinzie Noordman

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

In 2003, 18-year-old Kelly Bullwinkle was found dead near an orange grove in California. At first, the police believed that she was involved in drugs, and her murder centered around that. But as the case unraveled, the culprits and the reason behind the murder shocked many.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Damien Guerrero and Kinzie Noordman and the murder of Kelly Bullwinkle. The three were friends and many people were shocked when Guerrero and Noordman were charged with Kelly's murder. But what was the real reason behind it? Both Damien and Kinzie told a number of shocking stories. In the end, it would be up to two separate juries to sort out the truth.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 394 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing very well. You know, I'm having a pretty good week. I did want to kind of give a quick update on my wife.

A lot of people reached out and they were very nice and she's doing better. She's still struggling a little bit though. Yeah. We're wearing sunglasses in the house like a Kardashian. I was like, what's that? Pollywood. I know. Yeah. But, you know, her, she's very sensitive delight right now. So, she's still struggling with this concussion. This is going to take some time. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I know long term, all her tests and stuff look good. So look at this. Episode 394.

Yeah. How about that? We're like, almost on the crest of 400. Almost. Pushing. You're going to say that for the next five episodes? I will. Yes. I'll maybe skip an episode in between. Okay. But yeah. I'll repeat this one more time two, three more times. That'll work. Yeah. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Bailey Bailey jump out at our highest level. What's up, Bailey? Emma Truman jump out at our highest level. Hey, Emma. Shed Fines 19 on eBay. There's some good deals on shed fines. Maybe. Vicki Lucas. Hey, Vicki. Arena. What's going on, Arena? Vincu Kyi. Ah, the Vin-Sukee. Burr-Kerry. Hey, Carrie. Judy Shelton. What's going on? Shelton from the, what's that show? You Shelton,

the real smart person. Yeah, that's Sheldon with the D. Yeah, this is the other smart person and the other show was Shelton. Young Shelton. Yeah. Darrell Ritter. What's it going on, Darrell?

Marguerite. Hey, Marguerite. Caitlin Melton. Well, appreciate that, Caitlin. Linda. Well, hi, Linda. And last but not least, Casey 11. Well, what up, Casey?

And then if we go back into the vault. This week, we selected Lauren Gill. Hey, my old classmate. Going back to something you talked about on. Patreon. Yeah. So we appreciate all the support. Speaking of Patreon, Gibbs, we have an episode out that dropped Saturday night on Reginald Reith.

This case took place in Hammond, Louisiana, back in the 80s. And it took over 30 years to figure out who killed 26-year-old Salonia Reek. But they figured it out. They did figure it out. Some twists and turns. And it took a while, but they did. We also have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about Doris and Alan Sorensen, who were murdered back in the 80s as well.

This case is in Colorado. They owned a jewelry store and, you know, neighbors started worrying. They hadn't seen them. People started worrying because they hadn't opened the jewelry store. And it turned out that they were dead. There was a good reason to worry. Yeah, there was a good reason to worry. But it's been almost 40 years that their murders have been and remain unsolved.

It's a long time. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? Always. In 2003, 18-year-old Kelly Bullwinkle was found dead near an Orange Grove in California. At first, the police believed that she was involved in drugs and that her murder centered around that, as a lot of murders do, right? You know, involved in drugs, people get upset, they don't get their money, they don't get their drugs, whatever.

But as the case unraveled, the culprits and the reason behind the murder shocked a lot of people. Kelly Laurel Bullwinkle was born on June 8, 1985 in Petaluma, California. Kelly did cross-country and banned in high school, and she enjoyed writing. horses. You ever do cross-country? Um, not officially. Okay. I mean, I know you fled cross-country. I meant like the running sport in high school. I didn't do track or cross-country because I did not like to run. Yeah, I did track, but I just, you know, I would do long jogs. How about that? Long-distance running does not seem like it's fun. Now, a lot of people enjoy it and it's stress-relieving.

and all that, but it's just not something that has ever crossed my mind as being something that I would truly enjoy. But I did ride horses. Which is why you walk bow-legged the way you do. One of the reasons, yeah. But I do wear asses chaps now and then, too, as you, you know, very well know. Yes, we've heard that before. Kelly's mother, Diana Bullwinkle, was a former Coast Guard recruiter.

Because of her work, they lived in different locations. So they lived in Alaska, northern California, and southern California. Okay. Those are all different places. Northern and Southern California, even though they're in the same state, are very different. They are different. Even sprinkle Alaska in there, too. Well, Alaska obviously is very different.

But, you know, you kind of think of most states as being somewhat similar throughout the states, you know. Now, you have Florida, which is a very long state too. So the northern part is a little different than the southern part. But the same holds true with California. You know, temperature, just kind of lifestyle. A lot of things about northern and southern California are very different. I would have to agree with that. I appreciate that.

Yeah. Kelly graduated from East Valley High School in June 2003. She was friends with Damien Guerrero and Kinsey, Nordman, who graduated in 2002. Kelly graduated in the same class as Damien's girlfriend, Elity Romero. Kelly maintained her friendship with Damien and Kinsey after high school. Were you friends with people who were older and or younger than you? I was. Yeah. The school that I went to was pretty small. I think we only had like 180 people maybe in my graduating class. So I knew just about everyone in the school.

especially a grade above and a grade below at all times. Right. And maybe even two grades below. Nowadays, you know, some of these high schools have four, five, six hundred or more kids in a class.

I mean, I graduated with a class of 600. Oh, you did. Yeah. And they have more than that now. But like you said, like where you went to school,

I know that school's population has, you know, quadruple. Oh, now, yes. But back when I went there was kind of a rural place. During the fall semester, Kelly was enrolled full-time at Crafton Hills College in

Yucypa. She worked part-time at Baker's Burgers in Redlands, California. Kelly Bullwinkle was last seen alive around 4.30 p.m. on September 13, 2003, as she was leaving her shift at Baker's Burgers. On the day of her disappearance, she called her roommate and told her she was going to hang out with friends after work. One of the last people to see Kelly was her friend, Tatiana Alexandrov, who was also at Baker's Burgers. Kelly told her about her test score in the class they shared, then left the restaurant.

You know, I never had a desire to share my test scores with other people. Well, first of all, you didn't want to make them jealous. I know. That's true. And maybe a little upset because you blew the bell curve. Well, yeah. There was never a bell curve in any of the classes you were in. Yeah, didn't do great for my friendships in some areas.

Good thing he had all those cross-country buddies to fall back on that. Kelly was reported missing by her roommate on the evening of Monday, September 15th. Kelly missed work on the 14th and the 15th. Her abandoned vehicle was found on the 14th at the Ontario Mills Mall in on Terrier. So there's a couple of things here for me. And it's things that we see in a lot of cases, both, you know, solved cases and unsolved cases, you know, there is a point in time where people start to worry, right? When they don't hear from someone or they haven't seen them for, you know, a period of time. And then there are often these conversations, which at the time are

very benign. You know, this conversation between Kelly and her friend Tatyama, that would be an everyday sort of conversation. You know, you're at work, you're talking about some test you had in class, and then you leave. There's no thought in the other person's mind, Gibbs, that this is going to be the last time that I ever talk to this person. But, you know, once they find out what has happened, that conversation takes on a completely different level of important. You know, that's something that you'll probably remember for the rest of your life. Do you ever eat at a Bakers Burger? No, I've never actually even heard of it.

Is it a chain? A chain, yeah. Never heard of it. You can get a burger and a taco and some fries. You probably like that. I like burgers. I like tacos. Combination right there.

I'm sure I would like them together. Diana Bullwinkle was working on a ship in Central America when she received news that her daughter was missing. She flew back to California to be part of the search efforts. And I think this came up in an unsolved case recently where it was a person, I think it was a family member, acted like they weren't even involved in the search effort or, you know, not didn't fly home for a funeral or something. And it was so strange to me because I think I remember us talking about it. If you heard that your loved one was missing, you would move heaven and earth to get home, to help, to find them. You know, this mom is in Central America on a ship and does whatever she has to do to fly back

to California. Yeah, she makes sure that she can be there. And that's what everybody should do. And that's what you expect people to do. don't, it makes them look suspicious. And we've seen that in some cases. Diana Bullwinkle said, per the LA Times, she had pets to take care of, classes to take. And she had to be back at work. This disappearance was not like her. And we hear that so often, right? Moms, dads, talking about their child. Now, this is a grown child. Yeah. But they know what is and what is not.

something that their child is likely to do. They're not just going to run off, not call anybody, shirk all of their responsibilities, work, classes, pets. They're just not going to do that. It just doesn't add up. No. And unfortunately, that probably makes them even more fearful. This is not a person who just leaves for days at a time without telling anyone, but then they show back up. okay, you would be hopeful that it's just one of those times. But if the person never does that, I'm assuming there's going to be a little bit more fear there. Yeah, you're probably thinking worst case. On October 6, 2003, the police announced their suspicion that the body of a young woman

buried in a shallow grave near a citrus grove in Redlands was Kelly Bullwinkle. The young woman's body was found on Saturday, October 4th, by two paintings. ball players. The body was found in San T. Mateo Canyon near a patch of orange groves. The body was in an advanced state of decomposition that was consistent with the time of Kelly's disappearance. Well, I mean, I love a good paintball match, but I can't imagine coming across something like that. No, paintball is a lot of fun. And I think this is just another instance of people doing everyday things. You know, whether it's hiking, these people, people are playing paintball. They're shooting each other with paint, having fun, and that day is

going to be ruined very quickly when they discover a dead body. The crime scene was also just a few miles from Kelly's apartment. So I could see why they initially thought it could be her. You know, this decomposition kind of puts it around the time of her disappearance, just a few miles from her apartment. Okay, it's very likely that it's her. Yeah, it adds up. And then on October 8th, the police confirmed that the body

was Kelly Bullwinkle. Kelly had been shot twice in the head, a fatal shot that penetrated her brain and then a grazing wound. Now, initially, investigators suspected the murder was drug-related. Police chief James Bureman said that although a person

of interest was in custody on unrelated charges. Detectives were still pursuing other leads. So they had a person of interest in custody on unrelated charges. Pretty vague. Yeah, you kind of want more color around that. Yeah. So you would hope that they would still be pursuing other leads. The police released the following statement, which was published by the LA Times. It read based on the amount of information we have received. To this point, it would appear that Kelly was involved in some fashion in the use of illegal drugs, possibly cocaine and methamphetamine. Okay, that's a strong statement to make.

Now, they said they received information that backed that up. I think if you're the parents and you don't believe your child's involved in this type of stuff, that's got to be a hard statement to read. I think it would be pretty difficult. And I think you would want some answers to it. Like, well, why are you saying this about my daughter? The police secured a search warrant to look for evidence of Kelly's alleged involvement and drug activity, including a possible drug purchase in the hours before she disappeared.

The warrant named an alleged dealer who may be a suspect in the murder. So again, still all little vague, right? They're not giving out names. They're not even saying if this is. This is the person of interest that was in custody on unrelated charges. But you could draw a line there. Yeah, of course. Kelly's friends, Tatiana Alexandrov and Lena Gill said she was involved with a bad drug-related

crowd recently and had stopped riding horses. Is there such a thing as a good drug-related crowd? Possibly. Yeah. Maybe if you're just a, you know, a group of recreational users not causing any harm. Yeah. Okay. I can buy that.

Yeah. And nowadays, you know, if you're smoking weed, you might not, you're probably not even breaking the law. So just selling your front porch and do that now. Two days later, authorities announced that a convicted car thief was the lead suspect. 19 year old Cassandra Antivaros, who worked with Kelly, told the police that her cousin, 19-year-old Michael McMillan said he killed Kelly during a robbery. She made the allegation after she was arrested on September 17th on suspicion of being under the influence of a narcotic.

On Tavaro said her cousin believed Kelly had lots of money because she lived in an upper middle class suburb and allegedly once spent $100 on cocaine. Is $100 a lot to spend on cocaine? I don't know. I've never purchased cocaine. I'm just trying to figure out how much cocaine that was to determine if that was a lot on cocaine. That, that, I got to leave that in. I'm sure that made sense in your head, but that made no sense to me whatsoever.

I got to be honest with you. Might be the cocaine I'm on right now. It might be. But, I mean, you know, just break this down, right? Killing someone during a robbery, because you think they have lots of money based on where they live. I mean, this is a young person. And then the fact that she allegedly spent one time, $100 on cocaine, that is some very strange thinking. It's very, very bizarre. But my thought right away was that, you know, Antaveros is making this allegation just after being arrested.

It's not like she's walking in to the police station and saying, hey, you know, I want to let you know this because my cousin told me this. Yeah. This is almost like a Hail Mary sounds like of I know I've been arrested, but what if I give you this? Yeah, I'm trying to save my ass here. Right. That's, that's kind of what it sounds like. Doesn't mean it couldn't be true.

It just, it sounds that way. Maybe I'm going to make up a few things to help myself out. McMillan and another young man were arrested on September 17th on suspicion of stealing a vehicle. They both pleaded guilty. When questioned by the police, McMillan denied killing Kelly and said, he never told his cousin. He was involved in her murder. Diana Bullwinkle said on October 9, as quoted by the LA Times, I'm totally caught off guard by this. And I don't believe my daughter's involved in drugs. My daughter was a college student who worked a job and was a responsible person. I lost my daughter for something that was senseless.

So, you know, we have a couple of things here. You know, McMillan is denying he ever made this statement. So that makes it seem maybe even more likely. If he's being honest that his cousin was trying to throw him under the bus to save her, her own hide. And then you have a mother who's just dumbfounded that police are coming out and saying that, you know, her daughter's using drugs and was killed because of it because she just never saw it. is having a hard time processing it.

It kind of sounds just like a lazy excuse. Yeah, I don't know if I'd call it lazy, maybe a little lazy, but it just sounds like they were operating off of some bad or incorrect information. Yeah, not really verifiable. Yeah, maybe lazy in the fact that they didn't vet it all out before they kind of put it out to the public. So in that sense, I think you are right. As I am a lot of times.

You are. On November 6th, the police dismissed the theory that Kelly's murder was drug-related and announced the arrest of her two close friends, who they said killed her over a personal dispute. 19-year-old Kinsey Nordman and 20-year-old Damian Guerrera, Kelly's high school classmates, were charged with luring Kelly to the Orange Group, outside Redlands and murdering her. So this is a complete 180 from, you know, a judge. drug-related murder and a robbery gone wrong to two people who were friends of hers. Yeah.

Murdering her. You know where you'd never be able to lure me? An Orange Grove? Yeah. We've done too many cases where the Orange Grove was involved. Was involved. Yeah. You're right about that.

The police did not disclose the motive. But Kelly's friend, Tatiana Alexandrov said, Kelly was romantically involved with Damien and the relationship may have ended shortly before she disappeared. Damian was still in a relationship with Elodie Romero when he was seeing Kelly. According to Tatiana, they kind of kept everything they did under wraps to keep Damien's girlfriend in the dark. She had grown really attached to him.

We all told her to stop because it was stupid. Because regardless of how he said he felt about her, when they were together, he was still with his girlfriend. So now we have a sort of love triangle situation that could very well play into things. Let's face it, Gibbs, it often does. These love triangles just don't work out. They don't seem to. And you can kind of see why though, right?

Somebody is going to be jealous. Sure. Somebody's going to be hurt. And those are motives for doing bad things. apparently Kelly and Damien decided to end things a week or two before Kelly went missing. The police said that both Kinsey and Damien shot Kelly and buried her body in the shallow grave where she was found. Afterwards, they drove her vehicle to the mall and abandoned it in the parking lot. But they also said that while the police were investigating Kelly's disappearance,

Kinsey went out of her way to offer help, calling Kelly her best. friend. She attended Kelly's funeral and even painted a monument that was placed near the spot where her body was found. Trying to deflect. Yeah, well, you know, it's been said before that people who try to interject themselves too much into the investigation or into things can sometimes be involved. Not not everyone, obviously, but the police said that the lead about the car thief was a line. Three weeks earlier, ballistics testing linked the bullet casings found at the scene to a gun owned by Damian Guerrera. But the murder weapon had not been found. After this discovery, they took another look at Kelly's friend group.

Investigators spoke to more than 200 people and learned about the complex relationship between Kelly, Kinsey, and Damien. and people said that the three were associated with a goth subculture. Kinsey and Damien were reportedly obsessed with the movie Natural Born Killers. They even wore matching rings, Gibbs with intertwined snakes like the ones worn in the film by the main characters. Wow. You know, and that's a movie that caused so much controversy when it came out.

I mean, I think people still view it as a very controversial. commercial film. I know there are people who are obsessed with movies. You know, they have a favorite movie or they watch a movie over and over. But if at any point you're saying you want to be like the people in National Born Killers, you're going to scare me a little bit. Yeah. And we've done a few cases where that was the case.

Yeah, where that movie comes up. It's kind of like the book Catcher in the Rye a little bit. You know, that book surfaces in the inventories of a lot of killers. And why I have nine, ten copies, I don't know, but it looks good on my shelf. It's the only book you own. I like the color and how it looks on my shelf. Damien and Kenzie believed they were soulmates, according to the L.A. Times. Damien and Kinsey became the main suspects on October 15 when Kinsey's cousin, Scott Simonson, told the police,

he saw a small chrome pistol in the glove box of Damien's Honda earlier that year. The suspected murder weapon was registered to Damien's brother. The previous owner gave the police spent shell casings, which matched one found in Kelly's grave. Okay. So they don't have the murder weapon. But astonishingly, they have a person who did own the weapon at one time and was able to provide them with some spent showcasing. That's amazing. You never know what people keep. Maybe there was a benefit for him to keep those. Well, he could have been a reloader. Yeah. Or he could have just went to the

range one day and, you know, a couple ejected into his shooting bag or something. And he just had him. Who know? Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Damien and Kinsey were kept under surveillance for a week before their arrest, Kinsey was arrested on November 5th, 2003. As she tried to leave the city with her family, the police didn't think she was fleeing and then Damien was arrested

an hour later. In their statements, both Kinsey and Damien said the shooting was an accident. They said they lured Kelly to the freshly dug grape in a remote citrus grove because they were planning to scare her with a mock

death threat. According to the LA time. You know what is scary as shit being lured to a remote citrus grove and seeing a freshly dug grape? Yeah, that would be pretty unnerving. But I want to go to this term mock death threat. What happens at the end? You say, oh, I was, I was just kidding that I said I was getting ready to kill you. Yeah. We got you, didn't we? We scared you, huh? Kinsey described details of the murder in two conversations that were recorded by the Redlands police. One conversation was a phone call to her boyfriend, and the second was a conversation she had with her mother in front of a detective.

Kinsey told her boyfriend in a November 5th conversation that Damien fired the first shot by accident. Kelly fell to the ground. Kinsey then took the gun and shot Kelly a second time. I shot her in the head. Didn't want her to suffer anymore. Now, we mentioned earlier, the police said there were two shots. Right.

One was described as a grazing wound and the other was a shot to the head. Doesn't sound like she was suffering then. Well, might have been suffering, but to what point? To what degree? If a bullet grazes you, it's probably going to hurt. Yeah. But grazing by definition doesn't normally means that it wouldn't be. life threatening. So why would you have to put somebody out of their misery? Doesn't seem to add up,

does it? It does not. According to Kinsey, she and Damien wanted to see Kelly's reaction. When they threatened to shoot her, they had been planning it for two weeks. So now we're back to the mock death threat, right? We've lured you to this orange grove. Here is your freshly dug grave. We're pointing a gun at you because we want to see your reaction. And then what? We all pile back in the car together and go home? Yeah, have a laugh about it. Well, I don't get it.

Yeah. No, none of this is making sense. But I think for me, I was the police officer hearing them say this stuff. I'm thinking some premeditated stuff going on here. They talked about it two weeks before it happened. Yeah, they planned it for two weeks. Now, they're trying to say they planned this mock death threat for two weeks. But you know the police.

aren't buying it. I mean, you know, like I said, what's going to happen when they all get home? If it's me, I'm calling the police immediately. Absolutely. And telling them exactly what these two people just did to me. That or you go Jason Bourne on them and take the gun away and put them to in the grave. Well, then you have to argue self-defense, which technically it probably would have been, but I wouldn't want to be in that position. No. Because there is a freshly dug grave there. That's true. Kinsey brought Kelly to San T. T. Mateo County. Canyon, they hiked up the hills and smoked marijuana. Damien arrived two hours later and urged them to walk toward the grate. He and Kinsey left a shovel nearby. Okay, if you are going to scare

someone, why do you need the shovel? Yeah, with the fill in the hole later without her body in there. Or to fill it in before you all pile back in the car and drive home? Yeah. You can just imagine what detectives were thinking when they're hearing this stuff because it's just not adding up it just doesn't make sense. Kelly was supposed to turn around and they were going to tell her that's how they were going to kill her. Kelly was supposed to freak out and that would be it. And again, like I keep saying, and then what? You pile back in the car and drive home singing pop tunes on the radio. We're all friends again. Kinsey said she didn't know. Damien was going to bring his gun.

She was surprised when she heard a shot. And I don't know how many people have been standing next to someone when they fire a gun. It's startling even when you're watching them. Well, that's true. If you don't know that somebody has a gun and they pop off around, you better have a clean pair of drawers with you. Because it is very startling. When Kelly was on the ground moaning in pain, Damien handed Kinsey the gun and said, He didn't have the stomach to shoot her again.

She admitted she fired the second shot. When her mother asked why she didn't call for help, Kinsey said, they had poor cell reception and added, I don't know what I was thinking. We should have told somebody right away. But we didn't think anybody would believe us. So, you know, there's the old poor cell reception. cell reception and we should have told someone right away, well, you know why they wouldn't believe you? Because none of this sounds believable. No. You could have stopped after the first shot,

put her in your car, drove her somewhere. But you didn't think like that. And that's if it really was an accident. Yes. Right. Damien later told his girlfriend and his family about the shooting. according to his girlfriend, Damien said, Kenzie freaked out and I was in shock. We put her in the hole. It was the only thing we could think of to do. It wasn't deep enough and we knew that. So it sounds like they told quite a few people about this.

And you got to wonder, why didn't they come forward? Yeah, I had that question as well. But it's just, you know, the things that they're saying, I get it, they're young. And a lot of times, what 18, 19 year old say does not make a lot of sense to me, even when it's not in the context of murder, but in this context, none of this makes sense to me. We freaked out and we put her in the hole.

We didn't know what to do. Yeah. Well, first of all, don't shoot her with a gun. Second of all, if you did shoot her, but she wasn't dead, don't walk over and shoot her in the head and finish her off. like you said put her in the car and go to the damn hospital exactly and maybe just go back to the very beginning and don't play games like this well that's what you were yeah i mean i think that that would even be the the best solution when damien was questioned he said he had a brief relationship with kelly but broke it off and reunited with his girlfriend kelly according to him would not get the hint She called him and emailed him repeatedly several weeks before she disappeared. Kelly approached his girlfriend at a restaurant.

She was upset and raised her voice during the conversation. Damien told Kelly he didn't want to see her anymore. According to the LA Times, Kinsey's attorney called Kelly's death, a bad joke turned into a nightmare. There's no other motive other than this being a bad joke. all Kinsey Nordman is guilty of is being an accessory after the fact. Okay, I'm not, I don't agree with any of that. Me neither.

I don't think this was a bad joke. Well, it was a nightmare. I guess I agree with that scenario. But how can you be Gibbs by definition an accessory after the fact if you're actually the one who fired the killing shot? Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, does it? The preliminary hearing took place on February 20th, 2004. Both defendants were ordered to stand trial.

The public also heard that there was some disagreement over who fired the fatal shot. And maybe that's where Kenzie's attorney was headed. She didn't fire the fatal shot. She didn't fire any shot. She was just an accessory after the fact. After the hearing, Kenzie's attorney Richard Leonard said Kenzie, questioned Damien's contention. That the shooting was a joke. Before they were arrested, Damian and Kinsey told people that Damien shot first, which knocked Kelly to the ground,

and Kinsey fired the second shot to end her suffering. We've heard that multiple time, right? I think she told the police that, and sounds like she told some friends that. Dr. Frank Sheridan, chief medical examiner, testified that the fatal shot was fired downward. It entered behind Kelly's right ear. The other shot grazed the left side of her head. He could not determine if the fatal shot was fired first or second, but testified that the non-fatal shot would not have knocked Kelly to the ground unless it was her reaction to being startled.

So, I mean, this is interesting testimony. I don't know how you would determine which shot was fired first, but it would be strange to in my eyes for the first shot to be the fatal shot and then the second one to be a grazing shot that would seem very strange it seems out of order it does but we don't know i can see a scenario where if someone was shot and it grazed their head they would be so startled that they might fall down i understand he's saying that the shot in and of itself wouldn't have knocked her to the ground. But people have fallen just from being startled.

You take that information and you add the fact that both of the suspects at the time said, he shot, grazed her, and then I shot and put her out her misery. So you've got to take that in consideration too, even though they might try to change her story later. Oh, yeah. You're always going to take into consideration what people have said before the trial. Because a lot of times at trial, okay, now we're in self-preservation mode. We realize that what we've said before is not going to work. We've got to come up with something different.

At the hearing, Damien's girlfriend, Elity Romero, testified that she learned Damien cheated on her with Kelly and confronted him about it over the summer. Per the L.A. times, Damien told her he accidentally shot Kelly and then freaked out. Kinsey shot her because Kelly was just. laying there and not moving. So, you know, Damien has said this. Kenzie said this herself, essentially, multiple times. Damien shot first and then I shot her in the head because I didn't want her to suffer. In May 2004, the DA announced he would not seek the death penalty. And I don't know everything that, you know, went into that determination. It is California. And at a certain point in time,

I can't remember what year. They stopped putting people to death anyway. Yeah, that's true. They haven't put someone to death in a very long time in California. But also maybe these people's ages, right? 18, 19 years old. That might have had something to do with it as well. The trial started in January 2005.

The jury heard that Kelly had an innocent crush on Damien, which led to her death. On the first day of testimony, Kelly's mother, Diana, described Kinsey as Kelly's best friend. Kinsey was also close with Damien, who was seeking help, ending Kelly's crush and infatuation with him, according to the prosecutor. Damien feared losing his long-term girlfriend

when she found out about his relationship with Kelly. Elity Romero testified that Kelly confirmed she had sex with Damien. In an email, she and Damien had an angry confrontation. So here's my thought on this. this. You know, let's say someone has a crush on you, Gibbs. They're infatuated with you. I know a lot of people are. You know what's a great way not to lose a long-term relationship that you're in? Don't have sex with that person. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's natural that people have

crushes on other people. That's not going to wreck a relationship unless you decide to act on it. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, that part was so strange. Like, he's trying to get Kinsey to help end this crush, Kelly's crush on him. But yet he had sex with her. He fed that crush. Yes, absolutely. And didn't have to.

And then started worrying about losing his long-term girlfriend. Yeah, because now he's like, oh, what's going to be the repercussions of this? The defense argued that Kelly's death was. an accident. Damien and Kinsey made Kelly stand by a freshly dug grave, which they prepared the day before. They said, again, this was meant to be a mock death threat that would play on her fear of graves. Damien's attorney Alan Sanquist conceded that he fired a shot that hit Kelly in the head, but Damien never meant to pull the trigger. Damien was inexperienced with carrying the semi-automatic pistol and the gun went off accidentally.

Why even bring it? That's a great question. If you did bring it, why would you put your finger on the trigger? Because you can make a lot out of this statement. The gun went off accidentally. Well, guns just don't go off by themselves. No, they need help. Yes.

First of all, he was holding it. And second of all, he had to have had his finger on the trigger. And it had to be loaded. Yeah, those three things had to have occurred for this gun to go off. And I'm with you, the biggest one is you brought the gun in the first place. Now, Kenzie's attorney Richard Leonard pointed out that Damien fired the first and fatal shot. The bullet entered behind Kelly's right ear and lodged in her skull. Kinsey fired the second shot while Kelly was on the ground, moaning and in spasms because she wanted to put her out of her misery.

but her shot was not fatal since it only grazed Kelly's skull. So, you know, to me this is interesting. The defense, especially, you know, Kinsey's defense, is trying to say that, you know, her shot was not fatal. Now, when she was telling the story before, she essentially told the same story. She said, Damien shot first and then she shot Kelly in the head to end her suffering. I think, at least for me, I pictured it as Kinsey firing the fatal shot into her head, not the shot that graced her head, but she's trying and her defense is trying to say,

knows the other way around. Right. The prosecution pointed out how Damien and Kinsey made efforts to hide their involvement in the murder. Kinsey left a message on Kelly's home answering machine the day after they buried her, asking her if she wanted to do something together, according to Kelly's roommate. Okay, that is definitely trying to hide your involvement. You know damn well that she's not picking up that phone. Yeah, you know where she's at. Because she's buried in a hole that you dug. Kenzie helped pass out missing person flyers and denied seeing Kelly on the day of her disappearance. She also directed the police towards other suspects in the days following the murder.

Let's see if I can get them on to somebody else. According to the prosecution, DNA test showed that Kinsey drove Kelly's car to the Ontario Mills Mall after the murder and abandoned the vehicle there. She and Damien drove back to Redlands, ate dinner, and watched a movie after they had just killed their friend. Well, that's what you do, right? Have some dinner, watch a movie, laugh a little bit, you know. So let's go back to.

this accidental theory. If you had just killed one of your best friends on accident, I mean, really, if you'd just killed them, period. But let's just focus on an accidental death. Wouldn't you be heartbroken, scared? Yeah. I don't think that you'd go grab a T-bone

and then watch natural born killer. I don't know that that's what they watched. I'm just speculating. Probably did. Deputy D.A. John Ferguson, no relation, read an email exchange between Kelly and Kinsey to show that they had a strained relationship. Kelly wrote on September 10th, 2003, per the LA Times, you treat me as if you're the work of God's hands. You always rub it in my face, that you have a boyfriend and I don't.

Kinsey replied, I'm sorry if that's how you see me. I'll try to be more considered. Thank you for staying with me, do you want to hang out Saturday, which was September 13th? Damien and Kinsey were tried together, but had separate juries. On March 8, 2005, a mistrial was declared in the case against Damien Guerrero. Damien's jury deadlocked 11 to 1 in favor of conviction. Oh, so close. 11 to 1. On March 9th, a jury convicted Kinsey Norton, a first-degree murder. and discharging a handgun during a murder. Juror said they didn't believe Kinsey's story, that it was all a joke,

and her culpability was apparent when she decided to shoot Kelly instead of calling for help. There you go. But it's interesting that, you know, one jury was 11 to 1 and the other was 12-0. Now, does it make a difference

that Kelly fired the second shot? It could have. It could have to adjourn. Sure. Yeah. I think is it much easier to think that that second shot was the fatal shot? Because if she's already dead, she's not moaning in pain. So why would there be a need for a second shot, especially one that Kinsey and her defense team claimed only grazed her head?

That just doesn't make a lot of sense. And I don't think it would to a jury either. No, I think that's why the culpability came into play. One juror told the L.A. Times, the first shot could have been an accident, but the second shot by Kinsey certainly wasn't. Kinsey had a choice to pick up the gun and shoot it again or call 911. I don't believe she freaked out when she decided to shoot. I think what she did was cold and calculated.

And I think this juror is absolutely correct. I mean, this is the way I saw it as well. well. And maybe, you know, it was the fact that Damien shot first. They thought at least one person did that his shot was the grazing shot. And maybe that's where they got hung up. Diana Bullwinkle said, Kenzie was able to look us in the eyes inside my own home and say, she didn't know where Kelly was. Pretty shitty, isn't it? Oh my gosh. I'm thinking about some of the, the best friends that my girls have had over the years. How horrible would that be?

To have a person, you know, who's been in your home a million times, stayed all night, drank your Capri sons and ate your popcorn. You bought pizza dinner for it. And you've watched them grow up over the year. Right. To murder your daughter and then look you in the eyes and tell you,

that she has no idea what happened to her. Knowing how much you love your kids. Yeah. Yeah. On May 13th, 2005, Kenzie Nordman was sentenced to 45 years to life in prison. As reported by the LA Times, Kinsey acknowledged that she made a bad decision that unfortunately took my best friend's life. I think she made a lot of bad decisions, not just one, but a lot of bad decisions.

I think bad decision is undercutting it. Yeah. I really do. Obviously, by definition, it was a bad decision. decision, but it seems like so much more than that to me. I think calling her your best friend is another mistake. Rubbing salt in the wounds a little bit. Kinsey read aloud from her written statement.

I know in my heart that there is no excuse for what I did. I know in my heart of hearts that I never meant for Kelly to be hurt. And I would give anything to bring her back. And I don't doubt that she would give anything to bring her back. because she doesn't want to do 45 years to life in prison. Yeah, exactly. But if you never meant for Kelly to be hurt, how can you say that, Gibbs?

If you never meant for that to happen, then you don't pick up the gun and shoot her in the head. No, you help her get her in a car, get her help, or call 911 or do anything but what you did. Damien avoided a retrow by pleading guilty to second degree murder on July 25th, 2008. On August 22nd, 2008, Damien was sentenced to 15 years to life,

with credit for five years served. This meant that he was first eligible for parole in November 2018. However, Governor Gavin Newsom reversed the decision in 2019. The governor determined that Damien continued to pose an unreasonable danger to public safety if he were to be released. But in October 2019, the California Parole Board recommended parole for Damien Guerrera. And let's just look at the difference between what these two individuals got. It's a pretty stark contrast.

Oh, yeah. 15 years to lie versus 45 years to lie. Now, and I think it's just not what we're used to saying, right? in so many cases that we do, two people are involved in a crime that ends with a person's death. And a lot of times they get the exact same sentence. I think the difference here is that, you know, that one person that hung the jury. Yeah. And then I don't know if the prosecution was a little bit fearful the second time around.

And they thought, well, let's just take this, you know, We'll give him second degree. He'll do his time. We won't take any chances. Maybe the defense said, look, they already put the person that killed her behind bars. He didn't kill her. Now, he did shoot her, but he didn't kill her. So he shouldn't be doing as much time as the killer is.

I mean, he knows what the story was. Right. Yeah. Former San Bernardino District Attorney Michael Ramos wrote an article for the San Bernardino, son against his release. Ramos was once Kelly's high school soccer coach. He wrote that she was energetic and happy and made friends with the team. He was writing as an advocate for Kelly's family.

Her mother, Diana, passed away on February 1st, 2014. She was only 54 years old. Ramos wrote, How can justice be served for Kelly and her family by paroling a killer? While the other killer sits in prison for 45. years to life. Yes, he was sentenced to 15 years to life, but life means just that. He received five years credit for time served while sitting in county jail during the court proceedings and has only served 11 years in state prison since being sentenced in 2008.

This is an injustice to Kelly and her family. Governor Gavin Newsom reversed the parole recommendation in March 2020. So he did that twice. Newsom wrote that in his more recent explanations about his role in the murder, Damien claimed he had a codependent relationship with Kenzie, that they had a falling out and that he wanted to be her friend again. Damien had also minimized his romantic relationship with Kelly in prior hearings. And I definitely think he did that.

We didn't go into great detail about the trial, but, you know, he called it a crux. She had a crush on him. Obviously, they had sex. That came out. But I think he had more of a relationship with her than he let out. Yeah. More than a simple crush.

And more than sex, once or twice. It seems to me that there was more of a relationship. During his 2021 parole hearing, Damien said he overcame the sense of entitlement. He felt as a young man and learned empathy while in prison. prison. He worked on core issues that drove him to commit the crime. He wrote letters to Kelly's grandfather and donated his artwork to a horse sanctuary in San Diego because Kelly loved horses. He also earned two associate degrees in prison. Okay, let's break some of that down. First of all, I don't give a rat's ass what degrees you got in prison. I just, I don't understand that. It's great. Do it. You're

you're not paying for it, we're paying for it. And you have a lot of time on here. And you have all the time in the world and no responsibility. So get your degrees. But don't flaunt it as part of your rehabilitation. Oh, you could have went to woodworking shop or metal shop or just stayed in your cell and, you know, read some books. But you chose to go get a decree. Okay, great for you.

Yeah. Or you could have just not killed somebody and went to a junior college. and got that as well. But then, you know, you have all this other stuff. And I guess you just have to try to figure out how real it is. You know, is this a changed man? Or is this a man saying what he knows everyone wants to hear? Well, it kind of checks all the list, right?

It does. I, you know, sent letters to her family. I donated some stuff on her. her behalf and I better myself by getting some degrees. So I'm ready for the world. And I hate to be cynical, but I know a lot of times I am. I mean, you know, some of these people could be truly sorry and they could be doing all of this stuff because they are sorry. But again, I do believe a lot of people do this because they know it's what they have to do to get out. This is what the parole board wants to see. And so they say all the things. They do all the right things. But is it because they're truly sorry, they're truly

repentant, or is it because they just know it's what they have to do? I don't know the answer in every case. Kelly's friends and family called Damien Dangerous, a monster, and a psychopath. One of Kelly's cousins read a statement on behalf of Kelly's grandmother, Dolores Fuller, she said, per the Redlands Daily Facts. I have no one. now. My granddaughter and my daughter were all I had. Guerrero murdered Kelly and then my daughter died of a broken heart. My daughter, Diana, said, I have nothing to live for anymore. After he murdered Kelly, he destroyed my family. He's a hate-filled monster. And none of that surprises me coming from Kelly's family. I mean, this is the man who took her away from them.

Yeah, he orchestrated this. Yeah, that's a great point. You know, whether he fired what you would call the killing shot or not, it does seem as though he did orchestrate this. He was the reason why all of this happened. Kenzie might have fired the fatal shot, but I think he was the mastermind. But he's not saying any of that. That's the problem.

He can't say that. Deputy DA Connie Lasky also spoke. at the hearing, she said Damien had not come to terms with or admitted the causative factors of the murder. Damian changed his story several times and then blamed everything on Kinsey Nordman. She noted that almost 20 years later, Damien had not disclosed the motive behind the crime. She added that he cleared the jam from the gun so Kinsey could shoot Kelly. That's an interesting fact that we haven't talked about. If the gun jammed after he fired, the first shot and he cleared it, it adds an element for me.

Deputy DA Catherine Norman told the parole board that Damien has a psychopathic personality, characteristics of being cunning and manipulative, lacking remorse and guilt, having a shallow affect, callousness and lack of empathy. So those are things that the parole board would have a problem with. Well, I think everybody would have a problem with that. but does he really have all of that? And if so, then I go back to all the things that he's done and said, then that means it's a show.

It's one of the other. On January 31st, 2023, Damien Guerrero was granted parole after four attempts. After a decision, the board has 120 days to review the case and other information submitted and can reverse their decision during that time. The governor also has the authority to deny release. The parole decision was affirmed on July 18, 2023 after a review by Gavin Newsom, who referred the case back to the board for the final decision.

Damien was released from prison on July 27, 2023. Kenzie Nordman will be eligible for parole in 2007, according to the Redlands Community News. gives that's three years away so he's out and she might be out in a couple years well he's paid his debt to society right well according to the parole board yeah i don't think everyone sees it that way but i know kelly's family doesn't see it that way for sure it does seem light you know as we wrap this one up you know if kensie gets paroled in four years that's what 24 year 24 25 years since the murder. And you can argue some people would that, okay, that's enough, but is it? You know, I don't know that there's a right answer in every case. But in some cases, things feel light to me.

And I'm feeling like this is a little light. Now, it's not a given that she'll get released on the first try. And my thought is she probably won't. But I just don't believe. that this was a prank gone wrong. I just don't believe it. Oh, either did the jury. No, I believe they planned this out for weeks. They dug the hole a day ahead of time. Both of them fired a shot.

They killed this young girl and then dumped her in a grave. And then Kinsey went to go hang out with her family and post flyers and join in the search efforts. You know, the murder of Kelly Bullwinkle remains a high-profile case because of how cruel her closest friends were. And that's something we probably haven't spent enough time talking about. These were not two strangers. These were not two people that she barely knew. These were two of her closest friends.

Even her mother said that Kinsey was her best friend. Yeah. Kinsey even said, I was her best friend. prosecutor said they planned the murder because she had romantic feelings for Damien and he wanted to get rid of her so she wouldn't ruin his relationship. Kelly thought that she could trust them and they used that trust to lure her to a remote area where they had prepared a grate to conceal her body and then they shot her in the head. Now we talked about the fact that Damien hasn't really said much about the motive.

But this whole notion that he wanted to get rid of her because she had romantic feelings for him. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Of course, just deal with it. It's just something that he should have dealt with the right way. I mean, he got tangled up with her. He made that decision,

but it doesn't give you right to end her life to get away from it. I guess that's one of the things that really upset me was that he was acting like she had a crush on him and that was that was going to ruin his relationship but that wasn't true. The fact is he made the decision to have some sort of relationship with Kelly, whatever it was. And that jeopardized his long term relationship. And what is it with so many people thinking that getting rid of someone?

will solve their problems. And this wasn't even a big problem. You know, look at the severity. This was young love. I get it. It was a long-term relationship. But she already knew about it. Yeah. What is getting rid of the person you already had the, the brief relationship with going to do? Yeah. At that point, it doesn't make any sense. And like you said, it's young love. You probably weren't going to be with this other person. You're here from now anyway. That's one of the things. about this case. Nothing about it makes sense. It really doesn't. It's, it's a tough one. Yeah. No doubt about it. But that's it for our episode on Damian Guerrero and Kinsey Nordman. We got a voicemail Gibbs. You want to check that out? It's here. Hi, Mike. Hi, Gibby. My name is Sam.

I've called in once before. I was the lady who was angry with her husband for leaving the attic open. Not that you would remember that, but just in case it does ring a bell. I was just finishing up the podcast on, oh, my gosh, Michael Glazebrook or whatever. And at the end of the episode, you guys air a commercial for another podcast I listened to. And that's Mr. Ballin podcast. And I don't know if you guys pick your commercials that air during your podcast. But I was like, oh, my God, finally, my two podcasts, my most favorite ones are coming together in a sort of way. and it was just kind of funny.

So anyway, I just wanted to say that to you for some reason, and it just made me laugh. And I love you guys, and I've been listening for such a long time that it was just kind of cool to see those two kind of playing in the same way or at the same time, sort of speak. So anyway, thank you for everything you do, as always, and keep your own time picking. Bye. All right. Thanks for the voicemail. We love you too. Actually, we probably did not pick that one.

And if we didn't read it ourselves, then it's just put in there, I think, by our, the company that we work with. Yeah. But we're glad that you like it. Absolutely. And hopefully it gets other people to listen to it. That's what it's for. But more importantly, we're glad that you like us. That's the most important part, right?

Exactly. And that's your team Gibby. Even though you didn't say it, he just naturally assumed. I didn't have to say it, did I? No. I think it really good. Everybody knows. And we had one thing in the mailbag Gibbs.

and it was from MR. Rollins. He sent us his e-book. But he sent each of us a copy in this really cool, like, case. And it's like a micro-SD card. It's just a really cool presentation. So I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but appreciate it. Yeah. Give it a listen.

I'm pretty sure it's probably something you have to read. Oh. So you might be out of luck. I'll have to. I don't know if it's an audio book is what I'm saying. Yeah, I got you. And I don't know that there's pictures. Oh, I'm in trouble, man.

No pictures. It's definitely not a pop-up book. Oh, I love the pop-up books. All right. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.