True Crime All The Time - Daniel LaPlante

Episode Date: October 5, 2020

17-year-old Daniel LaPlante had a history of breaking into homes in his hometown of Townsend, Massachusetts. He was charged with breaking into and terrorizing the family an ex-girlfriend. Two months after being released from jail on bail, he committed a brutal triple homicide of a mother and her two children.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the crimes of Daniel LaPlante. Early on in the investigation, the trail led straight to the LaPlante home. As it turned out, it was only about a 1/2 mile from the murder scene. But, which member of the LaPlante family committed the murders? Investigators and prosecutors believed it was Daniel, and the evidence, some of it supplied by his own family. seemed to point to his guilt. You can support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

And welcome to episode 203 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? I'm doing good, man. About you? I'm doing really well. I just, I say that number 203. 203. That is a lot of episodes, man. And when you combine that with the, what, 183 unsolved. Right. I mean, you know, you're pushing forward. We're getting close to 400 episodes. Yeah. Do you want me to do the math on that or? Yeah. Bebo, beep bo, beep boop. And then you throw in the Patreon only episodes. That's true.

And that would put us over 400. Speaking of Patreon, you and I are putting together a special Q&A that will go out on both video and audio for our Patreon folks. So that'll be out in the next week or two. I mention it because if you're not a Patreon subscriber, now's a great time. It's a good time to jump over. We've got a bunch of extra content. weekly content, full-blown episodes. There's some good stuff.

Yeah. So speaking of that, let's give our Patreon shoutouts. Josh Ramsey up to the highest level. Hey, Josh. Thank you. Jess R. What's it going on, Jess? Beck Mention.

Well, hello, Beck. Emma Buckmaster. What's going on, Buckmaster? I just like the fact of way you stretch out the well so far like there's something grand coming after it. It's coming. Nothing. No. Robin Jackson.

jumped out of our highest level. What's happening, Jackson? Samantha. Samantha. Stephen Ferguson jumped out of our highest level. What's happened, Ferguson? Claire Canning. Hey, Claire.

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Scarlett Peeler jumped out of our highest level. Peeler in the house. Mar Frendo. What's up, Frundo? Tracy Cosgrove. Oh, good old Tracy. Dana Black. Hey, Dana.

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Well, what's up, Casey? And Jenny Bullins. Well, Jenny, Jenny. So we appreciate that new support. Then we go back into the Vault Gibbs. This week, we selected Riley Jackson. What's up, Riley? So we appreciate that long-term support, the new support.

We had some great PayPal donations as well from Samantha Newy. Thanks, Samantha. Cynthia Thomas gave a sizable donation. Thanks, Cynthia. Joanna Sanchez. Well, awesome, Joanna. And Michael Morris. Hey, Michael.

So awesome. Thank you to everyone. Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on True Crime All the Time Unsolved. We're headed down to Tennessee. We are, man. To talk about the disappearances and murders of half sisters, Vicki Stout, and Carla Adkins. Yeah. It's going to be a good episode. 1980. Brutal murders. And this will be the 40th anniversary since they've been murdered.

Yeah, boy, that's tough, right? 1980, 2020, 20, 40 years. Yeah, it's a long time, man, not getting the answers you. For the family, for everyone. Yeah, we'll get into all of that. All right, Gibbs. Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? Man, I'm ready. We are talking about Daniel LaPlante, a teenager in Massachusetts who was convicted of the 1987 triple murder of a mother and her two young children. Daniel LaPlante was born on May 16th, 1970. He grew up living with his mother and a stepfather, Elaine and David Moore, in Townsend,

Massachusetts. Not a ton of background on this one. This case is more about. the crime and the trial and kind of the family dynamics and everything like that. Right. Now, there were some reports that Daniel's real father was abusive to him at an early age. I even saw reports that said the abuse was both psychological, sexual, physical. I think what is documented is that Daniel really struggled in school.

He was diagnosed with dyslexia. I had that and have it. Yeah, you've mentioned that before and it can be a real struggle, right, for especially kids, unless they get some help. But even with help. Still a struggle. Yeah, because you got to constantly keep working on. Yes. Which makes what you do in your story even that much more incredible, that you're able to be the podcasting guru that you are.

There you go. Can we get that on a shirt? Maybe if you're willing to pay for it. Oh, no. No. No, but I mean, in all seriousness, it should be an inspiration to people that with hard work, with support, with getting the right tools and and training and things like that, you can really work hard to overcome something like that. You've done an amazing job. I applaud you. And I know it's not a one and done scenario. It's something that you work on all the time. Oh, yeah. Yeah, just got to keep working on it. Now, later on, after the news of Daniel's crimes came out, kids that knew him in school, they called him strange. They called him a lot of different names. And that's kind of normal. I mean, anytime you're asking someone about a kid that they new in school that turns out to be a murderer.

You know, let's face it, you're going to get a lot of different adjectives. But one of the things that a lot of people said was that he wasn't real good at keeping up with his hygiene. The smelly kid, huh? Yeah. Nobody wants to be this. Well, I shouldn't say nobody. You should not want to be the smelly kid in class.

No. And if you don't know who the smelly kid is, it's you. Yeah. Yeah. I knew you were going to say that. Now, my wife's a teacher. And it never fails almost every single year. And we have a lot of teachers that listen to the podcast.

Right. Almost every single year, she has at least one. Yeah. That just will not bathe. And she has to write notes home and say, hey, you know, we got to have something done here. We got to scrub this kid down. Yeah. We can't breathe in class.

Yeah. You know, and again, some of it is they just don't want to do it. Some of it is their parents aren't making them do it. Some of it is maybe based on economics. I don't know. Right. But either way, it's really bad. It can be.

Especially like now. I mean, she's probably like, and we're wearing a mask. And I still smell you. Yeah. So towns in Massachusetts gives this is one of those little small, quaint, northeastern towns located in northern Massachusetts. It's about five miles from the New Hampshire border. Yeah.

And only about 30 miles from Boston. Really? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so pretty close. If you want to get some lobster rolls, you can roll into Boston and get them. Mm-hmm. Is that where you get your lobster rolls? It's where you get lobster rolls.

Okay, because I like to go to Maine to get my lobster rolls. You get from Boston with your logger. But if you want to drive in and catch a socks game, I mean, that's not very far, right, 30 miles. Are they even a good baseball team? Yes, they are. I'm just messing with the people from Boston. In 1986, the town had a population of about 8,300. And in the 2010 census, the population was listed at 8900.

So you're not talking about a big change. No, maybe a few people had some babies. This is a city that I think over the years probably didn't change all that much. Now, granted, I don't know a lot about the city. Population-wise, it didn't change. The thing about David LaPlante, and again, we don't have a ton on his early years and his background, but he definitely started breaking into homes as a teenager. I think he stole for sure, you know, he burglarized some homes.

Yeah. But I also think he rooted around in people's homes. Um, I don't know. Maybe it was the thrill of being somewhere that you weren't supposed to be. Remember that first time you took your little credit card and you can Jimmy open a door, get inside of a house if you needed to? No, no, because I didn't do that. No, I was not a cat burglar like you were. Well, I mean, just in case you left your key somewhere. Oh, I got you.

That thrill of taking that credit card and just getting that door to pop open. But the thing with Daniel is, you know, it definitely progressed way, you know, way past. And I shouldn't say simple burglary because nobody wants to be, you know, wants to have their home broken into and have things stolen. But on December 6th, 1986, Daniel terrorized a man and his daughters in their home in Pepperel Mass, which is just a town or so over east of Townsend. Apparently, he had broken into the house and was hiding in a closet. It one of the man's daughters was Daniel's former girlfriend who he had been stalking since the breakup. You and I talk about stalking a lot.

We do. And every time we do, I get a number of messages from women who listen to the show, some men with stories of some pretty hair raising, scary stalking. Yeah, really scary stuff. And I like to get those emails. And I, and I, that doesn't come out right. But I mean that. And here's the reason I say it.

I've never been stalked. So I can formulate in my head what it must be like or what it might be like for someone. Right. But when I read all these firsthand accounts and, and get an amazing sense of the fear and, and everything that some of these people. went through, it helps me to really understand. Well, yeah.

I can't fully understand because I haven't experienced it, but it helps me a lot. Especially the ones when we hear that they've been to court so many times and still nothing can happen. Yeah. And they got a restraining order. That didn't work. It's tough. It is really tough.

But when this family got home, Daniel jumped out of the closet with a hatchet. And he chased a family. through the house. Bizar bizarre, scary, right, to have somebody jump out with a hatchet. I've seen a few different accounts of what LaPlante was wearing. Some said he was dressed in Native American garb. Some said he was dressed like a ninja. Those two seem pretty far apart, but pretty big cap. I've seen differing accounts. Luckily, the family was able to barricade themselves in a bedroom. And ultimately, at least one of the daughters was able to escape through a window, flee the home, and go to the authorities to tell them what happened. Police went to the home,

but by that time, Daniel was gone. What they did find was butcher knives, stuck in the walls, ketchup, mayonnaise. Everywhere. Everywhere, just kind of willy-nilly, you know, spattered, all over the walls. There was a bottle of wine on a table that the family had not opened. Wine was poured into two glasses, but no one drank out of either glass. Well, maybe he wanted to have a little romantic dinner with the wine with somebody, along with the ketchup and mayonnaise. I don't know if that was about.

Yeah, I really don't. It's a scary proposition. And you and I have kind of touched on this about different things. but your home being your castle, right? That's the place where you should feel very safe. Well, you're right. Your house is your castle. And you should never have to worry about being in your castle and someone trying to invade it.

Well, and so I think of it in terms like that, right? I'm already in the house. Everything's locked up. I feel pretty safe. Now, this is different. You come home. Somebody's already broken in before you got home and they're hiding. Yeah.

That to me is really scary because if I'm home, chances are I'm going to hear a glass break, a door open, something like that. But you walk in the front door, you don't notice anything right away. Your guard kind of comes down just coming in from the outside into your house. Yeah, because you feel, it should feel safe. So a very bizarre and scary situation, the family was so shaken by what a. occurred in the house that they made the decision they could not live there anymore. I don't know, Gibbs. I really can't blame them. I'm not sure if I would want to live in a house either after a scare like that. Well, you could probably never sleep solid there ever again because you're going to

keep recalling all that went down that night. Yeah, I think it's just the memories, right, of that house. Now, would you technically be safer in a different house? Not necessarily. but you wouldn't have the memories day in, day out every night before your head hit the pillow. Right. That what happened happened in the house you're in right now. They need it as a house like this house. It's easy for me to come in here. But unless I know that one code, I can never get out of here.

That makes no sense because why would I ever want you to stay past your allotted time? You hit that code right away. I'm out. I'm just kidding. So they made the decision that they're going to sell this house, right? They're going to move. But they still have things there. And the dad went back to the home to get some things for the family.

And when he did, he spotted someone in the house. So he called police. They came out and they found Daniel LaPlante hiding in the cellar. This guy'd come back. Persistent. Or he'd never left. I really don't know. That's true.

You know, there, there was some talk about, you know, him hiding inside walls within the house. And I don't know. But police did come right that night. They did a search. So either he was hidden in a place they couldn't find him or he left and he came back. Right. But he was arrested and charged with kidnapping and armed assault. He was held in a youth detention center for about 10 months until his mother,

posted a $10,000 bail to get him out. This was in October of 1987. But Gibbs, within two months of getting out on bail, he would do the unthinkable. 33-year-old Priscilla Gustafson, who had two children, seven-year-old Abigail and five-year-old William, was a church nursery school teacher in Townsend. She also sang in the church choir, Priscilla had grown up in a deeply religious household. Both her father, William, and her mother, Jean, were pastors. She was married to a local attorney named Andrew, and Priscilla was pregnant with the couple's third child. But when Andrew Gustafson returned home from work on December 1st, he encountered everyone's worst nightmare. He found his wife, Priscilla, dead in their bedroom, and he found his two small children,

both drowned in separate bathtubs. Really horrific. Yeah, horrific. And as a father, as a parent, you know, that's just something that I cannot imagine. You know, father, wife, man, woman, however. Right. You go off to work. You know, you work hard.

You come home. And let's say your spouse is either already at home. or they get home from work before you, it becomes kind of a ritual. Right. You're expecting to walk into that door, be greeted by your spouse, your kids. Yeah. Hey, what's for dinner? Those little ones coming up and grabbing you by the knees.

Yep. And obviously he didn't get that. And what he found was so horrific that I don't think most people, you know, would ever come back from it. And the fact to whoever this killer was. took the time to drown each kid in their separate bathtubs. Yeah, yeah, we may talk about that later in the episode. The medical examiner's report later came out and it stated that Priscilla had been beaten and she died from two gunshot wounds to the head.

It also stated that she had been sexually assaulted. While police were investigating the crime scene, they found some 22 caliber bullet casing. They also found an open beer that appeared to be full. Strange. Well, strange, but also, I think, you know, very strange when you think about what we talked about in the previous incident with Daniel LaPlante. Yeah. The open wine bottle. Poured a couple glasses.

Didn't drink any. Now we've got an open beer. Didn't drink any. But Gibbs, this was a huge deal in the small town. of Townsend. Residents were frightened. You know, everyone had their doors locked. Papers talked about the fact that a lot of people refused to leave their homes. That's how scared they were. Well, I can get that, though. I get it too because you have to ask the question, right? What kind of monster would shoot a pregnant woman? Yeah. Kill her and then drown

her two small children. I mean, we're talking about the worst of the worst, right? This has to be. be the boogeyman. Oh, yeah. This definitely a monster, man. This has to be evil incarnate. Yeah, in a town this size, you got to ask yourself a question. Is it somebody I know? Is it somebody I work with?

Is it my neighbor? You think about those and you're going to be scared and you're going to be hesitant to answer the door when people come up to it. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt, right? In a small town like this, when I said there's only 8,300 people. So, you know, if you're making the assumption that the killer is local, which I think a lot of people would. Sure. Okay.

Now you're saying we've got a killer living amongst us. Is it someone I see every day? Did I just pass them in the supermarket? Yeah. And if they were willing to kill a pregnant woman and her two little kids, what's going to stop them from doing anything to just me? Oh, yeah. Yeah. They have no boundaries, right?

There's no limits to a person like that. Right. The police were under a lot of pressure to solve the case and quell the fear of the residents. So they started to put together a list of potential suspects. And one name on that list was Daniel LaPlante. The house where Daniel lived was separated from the Gustafson home by a small patch of woods. So he lived pretty close.

I think it was around a half mile or less walking. It's really close. Walking distance for sure. And I'm certain Gibbs, the fact that he was on parole and the particulars of his pending case, it had to have made investigators think he could have possibly been involved. And we already talked about the connection between the open wine bottle and the open beer, you know, neither of which appeared to have even been sipped that had to factor in as well. Really strange calling card.

Yeah, and I thought about it quite a bit. I really couldn't come up with the reason for it. Okay, this is a 17-year-old kid. Does he want to drink? Does he open him up and then decide, eh, I don't want to. I better not. Why pour two glasses in at least one instance? I don't know.

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For 50% off your first care of order, go to take care of.com. and enter the code T-CAT-50, T-C-A-T-T-T-F-T-F-T. That's 50% off your first care-of order. Go to take-care of.com and enter code T-Cat-50. The authorities caught up with Daniel at the local library where he was being tutored and they questioned him there. He denied involvement in the killings, said he was home all day watching television, and then later left to go to his niece's birthday party that evening. He said he didn't hear about the money.

murders until he saw them on the 11 o'clock news that he watched with his stepfather. And at the time, they really didn't have enough evidence, right, to charge him. Just a person of interest. Yeah. Yeah. And some strange circumstances, someone that they were probably looking at very heavily. But authorities came to Daniel's home later that day around 2 p.m. to question him again.

But when he saw them walking up to the. the house. He fled out a side door and into the woods. That normally does not make you look good in the eyes of the authorities. Fleeing from officers is really not a good thing to do. No, no. If you see an officer and then all of a sudden you bolt, well, I think the first thing they think is, well, you did something. You have something to hide. Exactly. They did search the house and they found a 22 caliber shell casing that ultimately matched the casings of the bulls. it's used to kill Priscilla Gustafson. The police came out and said that LaPlante had stolen the 22 from a nearby home not long

after he got out of the detention center back in October. So he's using his old robbery skills, busting into homes. Yeah. And to me, the interesting thing about it was he gets out on this $10,000 bail in October. He has this pending case, right? He hasn't even gone to trial yet. and right away he starts right back up, breaking into houses, stealing guns. So now they really want to talk to him and probably do more than talk to him.

So authorities issued an APB for Daniel LaPlante in the woods between the two houses. Authorities found more evidence that tied Daniel to the murders. They found a shirt and a pair of gloves that they believed he was wearing when he committed the murders, gives the gloves were still wet. And police theorized they had been used to drown the children. Yeah. And then wrapped up in this shirt they found was a nameplate that read the Gustafsons that was missing from the side of the family's home.

So you ripped it off of the house as a keepsake? Like a souvenir almost. Yeah. The very next morning, he was formally charged with the murders of. of Priscilla, Abigail, and William Gustafson. But he was on the run. And it was a pretty big manhunt that was launched to find him. That Thursday, he broke into a number of homes, stealing a 32 caliber handgun from one of them.

Apparently, he knocked on one house, pointed a gun at a high school senior. Gibbs, his kid just shut the door in his face and ran to call police. Awesome. He's like, gun, nope, shut the door, lock it. Daniel then held a woman at gunpoint in her home and made her drive him around in her van. But this woman was able to jump out of the van and get away, save her life, and alert police. A police officer later spotted the van and tried to pull it over. When he did, Daniel jumped out of the van and he tried to make a run for it.

Police ultimately cornered him in a lumberyard and he was arrested. When they asked him where the gun was, he said that he had thrown it in the river. But in a couple of different sources, it said that as they were patting him down, an officer found the gun in his crotular region. That's a dangerous place to store gun, man. It is. It is. But you have to be pretty thorough with those pat-downs. Yeah, you really do.

Because I know you've hidden some things in some pretty strange places. Gotta do what you got to do, man. I know your doctors had to remove some things that he wishes he hadn't had to deal with. Like I said, sometimes you got to do what you got to do. I don't think key string of K bar is one of the smarter things that you could do. No, many surgeries later, it's okay now. So they got it. And when he was questioned, again, he denied any involvement in the murder.

he told investigators that he was at home watching MTV. And this was back during the day when MTV actually played music videos. When it was worth watching? Yeah. Yeah. Back when you and I watched it. No, no, no. No, no.

Oh, wait, that's ESPN. Yeah. I think you get your theme songs wrong. Yeah. But now I think it's pretty much what? Reality television, I don't watch it. The only thing I watch on MTV is ridiculousness. Oh, yeah, you do.

I've been over here. You have that on sometimes. But, you know, I think they've kind of gone the way of quite a few other stations where it's some type of reality television show or something like that. I can't remember last time I seen an actual music video on there. No, that was the thing. I can remember like having a school day, right, a snow day from school. Yeah.

And you just turn on MTV and watch videos all day. It's a turn and just brush your hair again. again. Eat Cheetos. Now, very quickly, prosecutors came out and said they intended to try Daniel as an adult. He pleaded not guilty to three charges of first degree murder. I think right up front, there was a lot of other charges too. I read where he was charged with as many as 28 different counts. Ultimately, it would come down to, I believe four. The three murder charges. and one other, maybe the kidnapping or something like that. The judge would not set bail for this kid, which to me makes a lot of sense.

Sure. He likes to run. Well, yeah, that plus given, you know, given the fact that he was out on bail when he committed the murders, maybe we should not do that again based on what we now know. And, you know, maybe looking at his age of two of the victims, clearly, like you said, he has no regard for any life. No. No. No. When you're talking sexual assault, murder, murder of children, this is not a guy that we even want to take the chance of letting back out on the street, even though technically he's presumed innocent until found guilty. The judge also ordered Daniel to undergo a lengthy psychiatric evaluation at a state hospital.

But the strange thing, Gibbs, is that I really never saw the results from that. I think procedurally wise, it had to be done. Yeah, he was found competent to stand trial. He's going to go to trial. I just never found, like, the full details. And maybe it's because he's a juvenile. He was a minor at the time. And they got sealed or something like that.

Could he not be all there? Because, like you said, it's one thing to kill a grown woman. still not right, but the fact that you can go ahead and justify killing infants, little kids, you got to wonder what's going on in that head. Oh, yeah, there's no doubt you have to wonder. Daniel's first attorney had to withdraw from the case because he had represented a number of Daniels family members in the past. Yeah. And these were people that were on the list to be prosecution witnesses.

Conflict. Yeah, conflict of interest. so he withdrew after jury selection. But before the trial started, jurors were taken to some of the sites that were crucial to the case. They toured the Gustafson home. And then they walked through the woods

to the LaPlante home. This is the exact path that prosecutors believed Daniel took on the night of the murder. Kind of eerie to make the jury follow the same footsteps. Yeah. Well, and Erie to be in that house where you know a wife and two kids lost their lives, there were some key battles fought before the trial started. Daniel's defense attorney wanted pretty much all of the evidence thrown out.

Okay. Which, okay, do your best, right? But there were some things that were very specific. You know, there were four letters that Daniel had written to another inmate while in jail. that contained some pretty incriminating evidence. Then there were three letters that he had written from jail to a man who had written him after he learned of the murders. In one of these letters, Daniel said police would never find the gun used to kill Priscilla

Gustafson. Interesting. That's damning, right? It's interesting, but it's also damning. The judge ruled that the four letters were. inadmissible. So I don't know exactly what was said in those. I don't know if it's ever been revealed, but he ruled the three admissible as well as all of the evidence collected at the LaPlante home and in the woods. And one of the issues that the defense raised about the evidence

collected at the LaPlante house was that, so they had the house. And then I think one of Daniel's older brothers had what he called like a separate apartment. It was part of the house. Gotcha. But maybe it had a separate entrance. So there he was, you know, I think the defense attorney was trying to do an end around legally. Right. To say, you know, the search warrants weren't valid because you served them on X and what you really had was X and Y. Right. It didn't work, but Well, sometimes those reach around don't. Did I say reach around? I said end around.

Oh, did you say it around? Yeah. I think you said reach around. And to my knowledge, those are two very different things. But, you know, to me, the interesting part of this whole thing is that the prosecution never even introduced the three letters that were ruled in admissible because they would have had to call the person that was corresponding with LaPlante. to the stand. And apparently this was a guy of questionable character. Oh, okay. I'll say it that way. Right. I guess he was a guy that wrote to a lot of killers. He would, you know, you would see stories. Yeah. And he would reach out to these people that were accused of murder. He was trying to get them to say things. Right.

because he thought he could use that information later on to get a reduced sentence if needed. Pretty much like a get out of jail free card. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like that's basically what he was doing. So the trial began in October of 1988. The prosecution called 50 witnesses who testified over 12 days. That's a lot.

It's a lot. It's a lot. many of these witnesses for the prosecution were Daniel's own family members. Some of them were acquaintances. The prosecution's contention was that Daniel LaPlante had broken into the Gustafson home about a month prior to the murder. Then on December 1st, he broke in again. He beat and sexually assaulted Priscilla.

He put a pillow over her head and shot her. twice in the head through the pillow, right, to help muffle the sounds with a 22. He then took little five-year-old William to the bathtub and drowned him. He opened a beer, but didn't drink any of it as he waited for seven-year-old Abigail to get home from school. So clearly he was aware of the scheduling. Yes, I think that's safe to say. And maybe it's because he had broken him before.

Maybe it's because he lived so close. Maybe he was keeping tabs. Well, we may talk about why that is a little bit later on. But when she got home, he took her to the bathtub and drowned her. I think the other question gives that you have to ask yourself. Okay. He killed the mom. The son was there.

Right. So he killed the son. Yeah. Maybe because he thought this little boy could identify him. But if Abigail's not home, well, hang out. Why are you waiting around? Now, I get it globally.

Why are you doing anything that you're doing? Sure. But just for this specific part, why are you waiting around to murder this seven-year-old girl? It's not because she can identify you. Right, because she hasn't seen you. You could have left. before she ever got home from school.

If the prosecution's theory was correct and the timing and all of that. But that is one thing that I thought about. Andrew Gustafson took the stand pretty early on to talk about the anguish. He felt when he discovered his family murdered, he said he had a bad feeling walking up to the house because he had tried to call his wife several times that day and she didn't answer. So when he pulled up, you know, into the driveway, he saw his wife's minivan. And for whatever reason, he just got a very eerie feeling.

Oh, I hate those feelings, man. You know, when you get that, something's not right in your gut. Now, luckily, for most of us, it turns out to be nothing. Right. For him, not that day. It was the worst day of his life. Police chief William May told the jury how the police came into possession of the murder weapon. this 22 caliber pistol.

And it's strange because they didn't get it for five months. So Day said five months after the murders, he was called to the LaPlante home around 2 a.m. And there in the backyard, he met with Daniel's mother, his stepfather, and their attorney. They led him to a junk Jeep Cherokee that was parked on the property. And inside the glove compartment, he found. found the pistol. A neighbor of the LaPlance testified that two guns had been stolen from his house during a break in the year before. Both were 22s. One was a revolver and one was a semi-automatic pistol. So really you have to ask yourself, why did it take five months for the family to turn it in?

It's a big question that comes up in this case, especially as we get into the testimony of Daniel's mother, Daniel's stepfather, and his brother. A canine officer testified that using the scent from a pillow found at the murder scene, his dog led him from the Gustafson home through the woods and eventually right to the front door of the LaPlante home. Always find it amazing how these dogs can do that kind of stuff. Well, first of all, dogs are amazing. everybody knows that. Right.

But I think specific to what you're saying, I do find it amazing that dogs are able to be trained not just to smell. Right. But to smell very specific things. So, you know, when you get into cadaver dogs. Right. Or you get into bomb sniffing dogs or drug. Drug.

Drug dogs. It's amazing how they can be trained. to root out this one kind of specific smell or all kinds of different smells. Yeah, I think that's for me to say, here's Fergis sock. I only find something that matches that. How do you go from point A to point B not to be distracted and you stay so focused on that scent? Training. Well, it's two things, right?

Number one, they're just gifted. sure uh nasely nasal that's that's that's probably not the right word to use right but number two it's training right yeah reward if you find what it is i want you to find you get a treat right or you know still amazing you try to train me before remember it didn't go well didn't go well yeah a state police chemist testified that nodded and cut socks and stockings were found in the gustavson bedroom and they proved that Priscilla had been bound and gagged. That determination was made based on the blood and saliva that was found on these items. She also testified that he used condom was found on the floor next to the bed, but I couldn't find much more about it from there. This is 87, 88. You're talking

early, early days of DNA. Right. Yep. A state ballistics expert test, testified that two 22 caliber shell casings found in a pillow outside of the Gustafson home came from the 22 caliber semi-automatic pistol found in the abandoned Cherokee in the backyard of the LaPlante home. Now, he said he couldn't link the two bullets that were removed from Priscilla to the gun because they were too badly deformed. And I think gives that something that you see quite often. You know, I don't know what level of knowledge most people have with guns, but, you know, the casings, they usually come out pretty well intact.

Yeah. So every now and then you'll, they'll crimp or something like that. But bullets, if they hit anything of any density. Right. They, they pretty much deform on contact. Now, if you just shoot it through like a paper target and it hits the berm, just a, you know, mud or kind of grass berm. Right. Yeah, you could probably dig that out and it'll be pretty intact.

But this one into her head, skull. And you're, you know, and especially with the 22. Right. You know, you're going to get a lot of deformity in that bullet. So you can't really fire another bullet from that same. gun and match up the striations and everything that would tell you that the bullet came from the gun. But normally the casings are enough to do it. Now, I think where that leaves you a little bit vulnerable if you're the prosecution is, okay, shell casings found at the scene match this gun.

Does it absolutely prove that the two bullets that were fired that killed Priscilla came from that gun, no. But you do have the shell casings. You do. And I think you can make the argument to the jury, and I think the prosecution did, that those shell casings were from the bullets that were fired. But if you can't prove it, to me, it just leaves you a little vulnerable. Right.

Who's to say that somebody couldn't have placed those shell casings there? Well, we've done episodes in the past where people have place showcasing at a scene. And I think couple that with the fact that, okay, they don't have the gun until five months later. The family says, oh, by the way, here's the gun. Right. That's where you get a lot of people, especially if you look this up online, there's a lot of people that think, hmm, some of the actions by the family might be a little hinky. We'll get into it.

Now, what I think the prosecution did offer up as evidence was that the bullets that killed Priscilla came from the same batch of 20 that they say Daniel LaPlant acquired. And we'll talk about where he got those. The woman that Daniel abducted at gunpoint testified that he asked her if she knew who he was. And she said, yes. she said he asked what was going on out there and she told him that the police were everywhere looking for him. So that's when he made her drive him in her van at gunpoint.

But she said as she slowed pulling up to a stop sign. She opened the door, kind of did a barrel roll out onto the pavement. Whoa. And got away. So I hate that this woman went through this Gibbs, but I love the grit in the fight. Oh, man. That she showed in, you know, making sure that she got away. She was definitely going to make sure she kept their own time of ticking.

Yeah. She was intent on it. You know, one thing I will say is I noticed that there been some lucky victims here because they escaped from his grasp early on. They didn't hesitate. They acted right away. So I have a theory on that. You want to hear it?

I do. I'm going to tell you anyway. But my theory is. My theory is that when people saw Daniel, they were 100% immediately on guard. You know, this wasn't a Ted Bundy that was knocking on your door. You open the door and you say, oh, what a nice looking fellow. Right. This was a kid who was described by everyone.

Every description I read, words were used like abnormal, strange, bizarre. Yeah. unkempt. I don't think this was a person to show up at your door and you would not be very suspicious and have a have a high level of like a security threat. So that's that's my theory. Right now everybody's Googling his name to see what he looks like. Well, but are you going to get the real pictures? Probably not. What you're going to get is Daniel in court. Sure, the cleaned up version. And everybody looks better in court. Well, not everybody, but most people do.

Yeah. But think about it, right? Somebody is unkempt. What's that mean? They're messy. They probably smell. Yeah. You're telling me you're not immediately going to be on guard if somebody shows up at your door.

You don't know why they're there, but you got a bad feeling. Right. Because this person is acting bizarre. They haven't showered in a week. All right. Can I come in? No, you may not. No.

Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. That's the best part about Monopoly, man. Getting that 200 every time. Spoken from a person who's as cheap as they come. Yeah. You probably own Broadway every time, didn't you? Didn't I?

You mean, don't I? I still play Monopoly. Yeah, you still buy that up, huh? Park Place Broadway. No, I'm a railroad, man. All the road roads are sweet, man. If you can get them all four. To me, getting all four of the railroad is the way to go.

Yeah. And then I branch out from there. Yeah. So police had some evidence, right, linking Daniel to this murder. But really, you know, to me, the most interesting testimony came from Daniel's family and his acquaintances. Some of these people, the defense tried to say, were really responsible for the murders, not Daniel LaPlante. His brother Stephen testified that he witnessed Daniel flee out the side door when police came to question him. He also said that Stephen was in possession of items that were later confirmed by

Andrew Gustafson to have been stolen from his house either when the murders occurred or during the break in the prior month. So that doesn't make you look good. That's pretty compelling. It is, but could you make the argument that you stole and you didn't commit the murders? Could. You can make it about any. argument you want, Stephen LaPlante's friend, 24-year-old Michael Polowski, testified that he was the one who sold the 22 caliber bullets to Daniel just a few days before the murders took place. He said that he really didn't want to, but Daniel would not stop pestering about wanting these bullets. And according to him, Daniel said he planned to take the powder out of the bullets. He was going

to make one large bullet. Okay. Now, I'm not sure how he planned to do that, but who knows? This guy, Polowski, was interesting because he originally lied to investigators and to the grand jury. He said he did so because he was afraid that he would be implicated in the murders. He also said he was given immunity from prosecution if he told the truth. All right. I kind of get that, right? Sure. You sold a 17-year-old kid. some bullets. That's against the law. That kid used those bullets to kill three people. Yeah. I could see where you'd have a little trepidation about opening up, you know, to those facts. And then you have Daniel's stepfather, David. He testified that he found a 22 caliber revolver in the house about

three weeks before the murders. On the stand, he said that he asked Daniel about it, but he really didn't do anything more. You know, Daniel said that was it. I don't have any more guns. So David took it. He hit it in his tool chest at the machine shop where he worked. Under questioning, though, he admitted that he took Daniel's word. There was nothing else in the house. And he didn't do his own search. He also didn't call the police to tell them about it after Daniel was arrested. Yeah, he should have, but it is his son. So, Yeah, I get what you're saying. Are you looking out for your steps on? Yeah, you probably are. So to me, I think the theory here is that 222s were stolen, right? We talked about that. David Moore found the revolver, but not the semi-automatic. And police believed that it was the semi-automatic that was the murder weapon. But if they were both stolen at the same time, then doesn't that mean that both, were stolen by the same person.

How was he in possession of one, but not the other? Well, that's a good question. And I think that's the theory that the, the police are offering up. The defense asked David about the shirt found in the woods and whether it was his. This came about because after it was found, Daniel's mother told police that the shirt looked like one that her husband had, but Daniel wore, right?

This is what she said. She even told the grand jury. the same thing, but then later on tried to back out of those statements saying that, you know, she only said those things because she was coerced and told that she would be arrested if she did. Put that type of pressure on her, huh? Now, on the stand, David said, yeah, he had one like it years earlier, but it shrank in the wash and was thrown out. And gives, I think the defense thought that they had that Perry Mason.

moment. Aha. When they had David try the shirt on and it fit. Sounds like an OJ moment. Well, Perry Mason slash OJ, but OJs didn't fit. Right. But depending on, you know, which way you look at it. Right.

It's like trying the brawl on in Seinfeld. Yes, exactly. In his closing argument, the assistant district attorney told jurors that the trail of evidence narrowed to LaPlante's family and a family friend and only one had no alibi. That person was Daniel LaPlante. And I think that statement alone kind of tells you the type of evidence they had. They had a bunch of evidence. Sure they did.

But they didn't have really anything that you would look at and say, yeah, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he killed them. So no smoking gun. That's kind of the way I look at it. I just look at it as like a mountain of things that all pointed towards him. But nothing definitive that said, hey, he's the guy right here for sure 100%. You got him. So I, you know, I think his LaPlante's defense attorney said in his closing that Daniel was most likely the scapegoat for his brother or Michael Polowski. So there was no doubt a defense strategy to suggest that Daniel's family and friends had conspired against him to put the blame on him.

Now, I don't know what reason they had for doing that other than to protect one of the other family members. Right. At the expense of Daniel. But for the defense team, it's a good way to try to attempt the show. Reasonable doubt. Yeah, it is. They also tried to chip away.

at the prosecution's scientific evidence. The defense attorney said, there's scientific evidence that says you're the one. And then there's scientific evidence that says you might be the one. Those are two very different things. Yeah. Big gap there. And I guess that's kind of what I was getting at. You know, did the evidence prove that he was the one or that he was most likely the one?

And again, you and I don't know because we weren't. weren't on the jury. Right. You know, we're kind of going through the evidence as we know it. There's a lot of stuff that ties him to the murder, but you don't have, as far as I know, the DNA that says, okay, his semen was in that condom. Yes. Yeah, right?

That would be pretty close to a slam dunk. That would be pretty tough to get around. hair, fibers on the victims. And there could have been some of that. I just did not see it. The jury deliberated for three hours on Monday. Then they came back the next day and found Daniel will plant guilty of all three murders. The sentence was handed down right away with the judge saying, the sentence to be imposed is one that intends you spend the rest of your life behind. hind bars with no parole, no commutation and no furloughs. That is three consecutive life sentences.

Pretty impactful. Yeah. For an 18-year-old kid who was 17 years old at the time he committed the crimes, papers reported that Daniel LaPlante, he smiled as the sentences was handed down. He kind of had this wry smile on his face. He's going to be happy to be in prison. for the rest of his life, huh? Because that's what's going to be.

But that's what happened, right? He's shipped off to prison. Now, in recent years, he's been arguing that he should be eligible for parole. So when you look at it, his sentence was handed down in 1988, three life sentences, no parole. The U.S. Supreme Court said in 2013 that life without parole for juveniles was unconstitutional. A law passed in 2014 said that 30, you know, years was the most a juvenile could go without coming up for parole. But I don't know, I don't think Gibbs that was made retroactive. But in 2017, Daniel LaPlant received a hearing on his request for a

reduced sentence. His attorney argued that he should be granted parole while he was still young enough to lead a meaningful life. He was evaluated by a psychiatrist who testified that Daniel showed no remorse for what he had done. So when the judge reviewed everything, she handed down the maximum that she could. Three consecutive life sentences with parole eligibility for each after 15 years. So that totaled up to 45 years. Right. That was the maximum she could give.

The judge said in handing down her sentence, the court is not persuaded that Mr. LaPlante's conduct can be a. attributed to any of his childhood experiences or to immaturity, irresponsibility, impetuousness, or recklessness. Mr. Lepinant committed three distinct and brutal murders. He left a family and a community devastated. I'm not sure, Gibbs, how you could say it any better than that. I don't think he came, man. That was straight on. So for now, Daniel Lepant spends his days. MCI, Norfolk, a medium security prison. He won't be eligible for parole until he's 62 years old.

So that's about 12 years from now. Pretty soon, really, if you think of 12 years, we'll go by really quick. Well, maybe not for him. How here it goes by really quick. In prison, maybe not so much. For most of us, yeah, but I don't know if you're sitting in a cell all day, how quick it actually goes. I think if you had three life sentences early on in prison, you'd want to try to run that prison.

You'd want to set it up for the rest of your life that you ran that prison somehow. So think about it. He goes in at 17, 18 years old. Yeah. He comes up for parole at 62, even if he got out at 62. Right. That means he spent 44 years in prison. Yeah.

It's like a third of his, two thirds, two thirds of his life. life in prison. How is he going to adjust to the 2032 world? Whatever that might be. People living in this world right now have a hard time adjusting to this world, let alone being coming out of prison with no real life experience. Yeah, I mean, he went in with VCRs and MTV. And MTV, he's going to come out with, I don't know, some kind of flying car probably, drones dropping off all your groceries grubhubs and stuff but my thought is would they really let him out i mean if you go back and you look at the heinousness of these murders how young two of the victims were the sexual assault the gunshots to the head i get it he was young but is that a person

that you really want back on the street i don't know No way. Even after 44 years? I think it'd be hard to grant parole that quick the first time up. The first time around? Yeah, I think so too. Andrew Gustafson died of esophageal cancer at the age of 60 in 2014. His second wife represented him at Daniel's resentencing hearing.

She was quoted in papers after the sentencing saying, I know he and Priscilla are doing a dance. I know that he felt that justice was really served today. So Gibbs and wrapping up this case, it's a heartbreaker all around. You have a teenager who was obviously headed down a bad path, stalking, breaking and entering, assaulting people in their homes. Yeah. I don't know.

And this was the one thing that I was kind of upset that I really couldn't find was the information about his psychiatric evaluations, because I really wanted to know more about that. The one thing that I don't think was ever proven was why he decided to kill that day and why he picked Priscilla and her children. I mean, he had broken into their house before. Maybe he had developed an obsession, a fascination with her. and that's what led to the sexual assault and murder, I don't know.

I don't know. You still have that question of, why sit around and wait for Abigail to come home only to murder her? It doesn't make any sense, but many times this stuff does not make sense. No, it doesn't. And then, you know,

you go back to his attorney saying, he should be able to get out while he can still lead a meaningful life. But what about the meaningful lives of Priscilla, Abigail and William and the unborn. And the unborn child. That's a great point. They never got to live those out.

Andrew's life was changed forever. He lost out on, you know, all of the good times that he would have had with his family. Exactly. I talked about some of the letters that Daniel wrote from prison. The contents of some of the letters were eventually released after the verdict. and in some of them, Daniel confesses to the murders. He just point blank comes out and says he did it.

Now, I know there are some people that believe his family conspired against him, but I think when you read the letters, it's pretty hard not to think he did it. Unless they wrote the letters. Unless they wrote the letters. Playing into the conspiracy. I think it also shows you why the defense works so hard to get some of these letters excluded. Sure.

from evidence because, I mean, they lost anyway, but these would have been very prejudicial to the jury. Oh, yeah. Like I said, this was a case with evidence that I don't know if it all really screamed out at you as being like a slam dunk, super conclusive to Daniel's guilt. But when you add it all up together, it was definitely enough for the jury. And again, they get to see it all. So it's true. That's the part that I always have to be very careful of. They saw it all.

It's hard to not think that they got it right. Now, we know some juries don't. We know that because of wrongful convictions and things like that. But even in some of those instances, they convicted based off of bad information. Right. And again, you can. can't blame them for that. You know, if a prosecutor withholds crucial information that would exonerate the accused, well, the jury doesn't have that. So they can't use that to make their

decision. Exactly. But that's it. That's it for the case of Daniel Lapland. We've got some voicemails, Gibbs. You want to check those out? Man, I really do. King Gibby, it's Tanya Rose from the UK here. just thought I'd pop by and say hi CrimeCon next year is coming to London Yay! It's on the 12th to the 13th of June so perhaps

the two of you could miss out on the Texas one and come to London instead and see all your fans. Anyway, have a great weekend. Hope to hear the podcast first thing Monday morning. Love you guys. and keep your own time ticking. Bye. So Gibbs, you and I were talking about this over dinner.

I would love to go to London. I've never been, give me some fish and chips, hear you use your ridiculous accent. British. It would be awesome. That's the only word you ever say. Redact. Can I meet the Queen.

It wouldn't let you anywhere near the Queen. Probably not. Not with my record. Your security risk. Right. Right. This timing thing is rough. There's no doubt about it to think, okay, we go to Austin and then turn around the very next weekend. And I think it's back-to-back weekends. I think so. And then fly to London. Oh, my gosh. I don't even know how we get our podcasts out. So I don't know. You and I are really going to have to sit down and think about that. Yeah. Get the Concord ready. All right, you take the Concord. I'll take, I got a private jet.

I think the Concord going to get me there quicker. I'm going over with, I'm trying to think of somebody famous, but I don't know anybody famous. We're going to open Elton's here, and Elton's flying back, and you can catch a flight with Sir Elton? Sir Elton's doing a concert. He's going to let me go back on his private jet. Yeah. Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is your boy, Aaron.

A good old Sacramento. I had another suggestion for T-Cat. A fellow brother named the fellow. a name of Lloyd Gomez. He was known as the jungle killer, and he was a railroad train that he would hop on the train, excuse me, and he would go from city to city in California. And he had a number of victims in 1950 and 1951,

and it's a really interesting case, and, you know, a 15-month span of a victim. So I'll ask for you guys to take a look at this. It's not a really well-known case. I just came across randomly. I thought it would be a good podcast episode possibly. So again, keep your head on a swivel and keep your own on time kicking. Thank you, fellas.

Bye-bye. There's your boy, man, dropping you another case for you. Yeah, and the moniker kind of sounds familiar, but the name doesn't. So I will definitely make sure that we have that name down on the list, take a look at it. We haven't had a good transient ride the rails, jump off killer in a while. Can I just say you're using Monopoly, railroad, moniker. You're thinking Monocle. That too.

That's what the Monopoly you can wear. What does moniker have to do with Monopoly? It just, there's an inside joke there or that moniker part. Don't let your moniker fall out of your eye. Exactly. Hey, guys. This is Bruna, calling from Brazil again. I called you last year, and I remember telling you that I was vinging on your podcast.

because I had broken up with my boyfriend and while now we're back together and I'm still listening to you. I just want to say that I look forward to your episodes every week. They are a nice thing during this pandemic that we live in. And I would like to suggest you a case from my state here in Brazil. It's an 11-year-old boy called Bernardo Bolderini. And he was murdered and his dad, his stepmom and her friend were involved.

His father even called a radio station to talk about his disappearance and he didn't know that his son was already dead. Thank you. And keep your own time ticking. I was just thinking. We haven't heard from Brazil in a while. And here we go. No, and the other thing I was thinking is we need to do and probably will, because I have have a couple in the hopper, something outside of the United States.

We just haven't gone out in a while. Yeah. And we need to venture out. South America. Are you just showing off your skills in geography? Yes. To let everybody know that you know. Right where Brazil is?

Right where Brazil is. Yeah. Exactly. No mail back this week. No mail. No. Runs in spurts, man. Sometimes we have a lot.

Sometimes we have none. All right. My Twizzlers. Did you? Yeah, they're gone. That was a big bag of Twizzler. did i was hungry so that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and gibby stay safe and keep your own time ticking