True Crime All The Time - David and Catherine Birnie

Episode Date: April 23, 2018

We're headed to Australia for this week's episode to talk about the serial killer couple David and Catherine Birnie. This sadistic pair hunted women on the streets around Perth and would take them back to their home on Moorhouse Street. The press would dub their crimes as "The Moorhouse Murders".Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the details of this bizarre but fascinating case. Let's dive into the childhoods and backgrounds of both David and Catherine to see what may have led them down the path of murder. What kind of strange bond did these two develop that would cause Catherine, in particular, to say that she would do anything for David.You can help support the show by going to Patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for merchandise, contact, and donation information.Please support our Sponsor eHarmony, the company that has helped millions of people find meaningful long-term relationships. Go to eHarmoney.com and use our promo code TCATT to get started!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 75 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you today? Oh, that's a good day, Mike. Is it a good day? Is it a good day? It's a good day to go down under. Go down under. Because that's where we're going, man. I'm excited. Yeah. We've been threatening. Traveling to do an Australian episode for a long time. Going kangarooing. I don't think you, you're supposed to mess with the kangaroos. Oh. Going out of the crocodiling. Crocodiling?

Yeah. Dought those crocodile. Through a boomerang, we'll just say everything that we think is stereotypically Australian. This is a knife. That's what I want to be able to say down there. That's a horrible impression of Mr. Paul Hogan. It is.

I'm sorry, Paul. Crocodile Dundee. But we are. We're doing an Australian episode. But before we get into it, let's do our Patreon shout-outs. Yeah, let's do that. We had Julia Brendle. Thank you, Julia.

Amber Scott Guerrero. Amber's big on social media. Big, big, big time. Jumped out at our highest level. Appreciate it. So we appreciate that. Anna Lee. Thank you.

Kiki. Just Kiki. Which I think is such a cool, fun name. Yeah. And if you have that name, that's all you need. You better be a lively party person. Yeah, the life of the party. Yeah.

If you're Kiki. Michelle Billum. Hey, Michelle. Ian Ford. Yasmin. Chowdery. I like Yasmin. That's a cool name.

Yeah, it is. I like that name. Sophie. Hey, Sophie. Carol C. We love Carol C. Yeah, we love Carol. She jumped up to our highest level and we appreciate that.

We're going to be seeing Carol pretty soon at Crime Con. We know we will. Lindsay Moffitt. Hey, thanks, Lindsay. Badger Furett. That's a cool name right there. That is cool. Badger.

And uses an avatar of an actual badger. I wouldn't want to mess with Badger. Which is. kick ass. Don't mess with badger. Badger or badgers. No, it's something you don't want to mess with. I hear they're very ferocious. Yeah, I think so. Michael Hopkins. Hey, Michael. Jumped out at, uh, no, he's been with this. Michael's been with this. He jumped up to our highest level. Yeah, I appreciate that. We had Sierra Hogan. Hey, Sierra. Austin Williams. Thomas Butler. Hey, Tom. Julie Governe. Governor's. She's a governess. She's a governess. Amy Wisemantle. Let's see right there, man.

Wise mantle. See right there what? What am I supposed to see? That's all I'm saying. Just look at that name. Wise mantle. Okay. I'm looking at it. I looked at it when I said it.

Did you soak it in? I soaked it in. Okay. And now I don't know what to do with it. It will come to you. Okay. If we go back into the vault, this week we selected Deb Rye Hall. Great supporter.

Been with us a long time. So we appreciate that, Deb. And we appreciate the longtime Patreon support. We appreciate the new supporters. that we get, we appreciate everyone. And we appreciate our PayPal. We do supporters. And we had some.

We had Jennifer Murray. Thank you. Allison Thompson. Awesome. And Samantha S. Samantha S. Always comes through. She knows how to get to me.

She does. Yeah. So if you want to support the show, there's a couple of easy ways to do it. You can go to patreon.com slash true crime all the time. Probably the easiest way is just to go to true crime all the time. That's what I do. There is a Patreon button. There's a PayPal button.

There's a donate page. I mean, you can find it pretty easily. Yeah. If anybody wants to do that. If I can do it, you can do it. Can you do it? Well, yeah, of course I can do it. I'm a savant.

It's that easy. So basically, Gibby is saying it's so easy that he can do it. Exactly. Which means anybody can do it. That's what you're saying. I guess so. Because that's how it's coming out. I didn't think that one through.

But we do. We appreciate everyone so much. So at the same time this episode is out, we have an unsolved episode. We do. And we also are doing an Australian case. That's right, mate. So we're kind of linking T-Cat and T-Cat Unsolved. I figure why we're down there.

We just go ahead and... Yeah, we don't want to make a flight all the way back and then sometime later have to fly back down. It's a little rough on the body. On Unsolved, we're doing the wall. Wanda Beach murders. Yeah. Fascinating case. It really is.

Two young girls. Yeah, both 15. 15 years old. Disappear. And you and I have kind of touched on the Wanda Beach murders a little bit in the Beauty Queen killer episode. Yeah, we did. That we did.

There's a thought that maybe he could have been involved. And I'm sure we'll probably touch on it in the episode. Yeah, we will. So check that out. CrimeCon is coming quick. CrimeCon be here. I'm excited. It's less than.

And three weeks away now. Yeah. But you still have time. If anybody wants to go, go to crimecon.com. Get your ticket. Use our code T-Cat. Yeah. And you'll get some money off of your standard badge price.

I think Mike still has some room in his hotel room. It's all full. Is it full now? It's completely full. All right. How about a rollaway? There's no reservations. I had to put the, what's the sign they use at the hotel?

Do not disturb. No. Oh, no vacancy. No vacancy. I had to put the no vacancy sign out. No vacancy. Do not disturb. That is a completely different sign. Yeah. Don't be using that sign. Get you in trouble. All right, Gibbs, let's get into this case. Let's do it. So we are talking about David and Catherine Bernie. And like I said, we've been threatening to do, I don't know why he keeps saying threatening, but we've been saying that we're going to do an Australian case for a long time. have. We should have already done one, but we wanted to make sure that we, we get one out. We have a lot of amazing T-CAT listeners in Australia. And not only that, but this is just a fascinating case that anybody, it doesn't matter where you're from, is going to enjoy. Right. Right. People in other

countries love the American cases. We love some of their cases. I mean, that's the true crime is universal. That's for sure. No doubt about that. Now, I got to be honest. I, um, Australia is still somewhat of a mystery to me. I still haven't been able to eat the Vegemite. Yeah. I've made several sandwiches with the intention of trying it and literally could not get my body to cooperate. Couldn't man up. I couldn't man up if you want to go that way. Yeah. We can. Now, and I'm not a person that travels a lot outside of the U.S. Right. I'm not by any means a world traveler. I'm more of a homebody. I do travel. I do travel. travel inside the United States.

I just, I mean, I seem too much locked up abroad. You know what you ought to do? And it scared me. You should take that tube of vegamite. Uh-huh. Wait a minute. I don't like where this is going. No, put in your overnight bag, take it down to, uh, to us when we go down to, um,

CrimeCon. Mm-hmm. Take us to the meetup. You and anybody that shows up the meetup can try a little bit of vegamite. All right. We may have to do that. We may have to do that. Yeah.

But I am fascinated by Australia. You know, maybe we'll someday be big enough. We can fly over there, do a show. People will want to come see us. Yeah. That'd be cool. I think we got to go to Australia and we need to go to Sweden one day. Yep.

We got a lot of listeners in Sweden. That's a weekend. Yeah. That's a hell of a weekend. Be on the plane the whole time. So getting back to David and Catherine Bernie, this is a serial killing couple from Australia. They murdered at least four women. some think maybe more, and they murdered these women in their home on Morehouse Street in a suburb of Perth,

Australia. And the press would dub these as the Morehouse murders based on the name of the street where they lived and committed the murders. So like we usually do, let's go into some background on both David and Catherine. David Bernie was born February 16th, 1951 to John and Margaret Bernie. He was the firstborn, but he would have five siblings. It's a fairly large family. Probably not a shock that David did not have what you would call an ideal childhood. We've had some folks that we profiled Gibbs that have had good upbrings, but the majority have not. They've come from dysfunctional families and things like that. And that's the case here with David. both of his parents were alcoholics and there were a lot of times where the government would step in

and actually remove the kids from the home for extended periods of time. A lot of gossip about the family regarding, you know, the alcoholism, how dysfunctional everyone was. But that wasn't the worst part of it. Oh, that wasn't. No. The worst part was that there was gossip around the town. that there was incest going on inside of this family. Well, another layer.

And that's not, I mean, none of this gossip is really good, right? But that's probably at the bottom of the list of what you want people saying about you. That's not healthy. Around town. Not healthy at all. David was, by everything you read about him, kind of a sickly kid. I don't even, I don't know if he was sick, but people thought he was. was because of the way he looked.

You know, he was frail. He just looked like something was wrong with him. He dropped out of high school, and I don't think I've ever said this, Gibbs, to pursue being a jockey. Really? Yeah. Not a disc jockey. No, a horse jockey.

Really? So you know he was not a very big guy. No, you can't be a big guy and be a horse jockey. No, there's... Well, you can just won't be successful. Yeah, I think there's a limit, right? I would hope so. If there's not a limit, there's a ideal.

height and weight type to be a good jockey, I think. Yeah, I think you'd have a hard time getting hired at 6.3, 220. Yeah. Yeah. Might be a little slower than some of the other guys, but he does. He quit school to try his hand at becoming a jockey at a local horse park. And I think it's, you know, he's living in the stables at some point. Oh, nice. I mean, this kid's 15, maybe. Yeah. 16 years old at this point. But it's, you know, he's living in the stables at some point. but it doesn't go well. And this is going to be a common theme in his life. Not a lot of things are going to go well for David Bernie.

Number one, he was cruel to the horses. It seems like that should be rule number one of being a jockey that you wouldn't mistreat the horses. I mean, he literally was caught beating horses. Oh, that's not good. And I'm not talking about with the little riding crop as you're riding. Right. He was mistreating these animals.

Yeah, so what a loser. On top of that, he was caught multiple times exposing himself. To the horse? I don't know. I don't know. Is that against the law? It's just wrong. Or is that just frowned upon?

It's just, yeah, frowned upon. No, I think he was exposing himself to women. Okay, that's bad too. Worse than the horse? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Because you said it like, oh, that's bad too. As in equally as bad.

It's all bad. but yeah, that's even higher up. It was during this period of time that he's kind of essentially living at this horse park, trying to make it as a jockey, that he breaks into a woman's house. He's stark naked.

Of course. With the exception of a stocking over his head. I wasn't sure where the stocking was going to be placed. Yeah, it was on his head. Okay. And no laughing matter, he would commit his first rape. Yeah.

Very young. I mean, it's a very young age. So all of this culminates in this trainer that he's working with. You know, he starts to realize this is a bad guy. And he kicks him out. You know, so his goal of becoming a jockey is gone. And David turns to a life of crime.

And like I said, he starts really young. And throughout his teen years, he was convicted of numerous misdemeanors, you know, felonies. And he would spend time in jail. Now, Catherine Harrison, who would later be known as Catherine Bernie, she was also born in 1951, like David. So they were pretty much the same age. Catherine's mother died when she was very young.

And she went with her father to live in South Africa. That's a heck of a move. That's a big move, yeah. But that arrangement only lasted a few years because her dad was having a hard time raising her. he ends up shipping her back to Australia to live with her grandparents. Catherine was said to have been a very lonely child. She wasn't allowed to play with other children.

People would later remember her as a kid that never smiled. So you really have to absorb this loneliness, a lack of affection, because I really think it's going to shape her life. and maybe be a big driver of what's going to happen later on. I believe you are correct. You sound like Ed McMahon with Johnny Carson. You are correct, sir. You are correct.

Now, David and Catherine, they met growing up as children. They both had sad lives. And I think that's a big part of what forged their connection. Later on, in their teen years, they kind of find. find each other again, reunite, and they rekindle that connection in more of a romantic way. More of an adult way? More of an adult way, I think. Okay.

Next flicks and chilling. Next flicks. Next flicks up. Yep. But Catherine, you know, I think she wanted to be loved, like we talked about. She didn't have a lot of affection growing up. She wanted, she was longing for that. And she found that in David Bernie.

And she would do anything for David, including joining him in committing these crimes. That's a different type of love. Yeah, I think we're going to talk about it quite a bit. This is a love at all cost kind of situation. It really is. Like, you know, we're really going to get into it with with some of the more heinous things that they do. but this is I will do anything for you. Yeah.

And that's going to become really. They're really taking it to the, you know, some people say, hey, baby, I do anything for you. This is taking it actually falling through. Oh, this is as next level anything, you know, as you can get. So we jump up to 1969. They're both around, you know, 18 years old at this point. They set out David and Catherine on a crime spree. I mean, they're stealing everything they can get their.

hands on. Now, I have to mention that Catherine by this time is pregnant with another man's baby. Oh, really? Oh, really? Yes, she is. Okay. She loves them that much. Well, I think it happened before they got reunited. Okay. And it felt so good. Yeah. Interesting. But they end up getting caught. They're arrested. They're charged with 11 counts of breaking and entering and stealing about $3,000 worth of goods. That's a nice little haul in $1969, Gibbs. Yeah, back then. It'd be like 20,000 today.

All right. I'll go with it. Yeah. I hope you're right because, what was it, a couple episodes ago, when we went really far back on Jesse Pomeroy,

you were so far off on your, oh my gosh, everybody was pointing it out on social media. How do they know? Maybe I was right. Because they actually, unlike us, where we wing it. Yeah.

They will actually go into the calculators online. That doesn't mean any. Just because the calculator says so. So they actually have a real number to look at? Let's call up. Which we could do, but that takes all the fun out of it. What would Stephen Hawkins say? Nothing now because he passed away.

Yeah, but if he was around, he would have and Gibby's right. Oh, that's what he'd say? He'd say, yeah, I can see that happening. It's possible. Well, anything is possible. That's all I wanted you to say. Thank you. All right.

So they plead guilty to these charges in June of 69. David is sentenced to nine months and Catherine gets probation. Because she's pregnant. Not too bad. Because she's pregnant. I'm sure that may have had something to do with it. I guarantee you it did. Or the fact that she may was probably just along for the ride or I don't know how much she

participated. It's not the crux of the story. So I didn't spend a lot of time. on that part, but, you know, not a rough sentence, right? But they're young. But the very next month, they're back in court, levied with additional counts of burglary. David gets three years added to a sentence. Wow. So now he's doing some serious time. Yeah, he is. Almost four years. Catherine still gets probation, but they tack on another three years bringing her total to four years. So she's got four years probation. If she steps out of line, she's going to jail.

She's going to go to the big house. But it's just about a year later after this sentencing, David breaks out of jail and he reunites with Catherine. And they again, Gibbs, start up this Bonnie and Clyde type show committing just a litany of thefts. But they're horrible at it. They are not very good at thievery because they're caught the very next month, July of 1970. Yeah, we got a lot of individuals we talk about on our podcast that just aren't that great at being thieves. Yeah. It's probably not as easy as some people think it is to get away with a lot of, you know, different thefts. But at some point, don't you have to say, I'm not good at this?

You would think. You know, it's like if you try skiing a hundred times and a hundred times you fall down. Eventually, I'm going to have to say to myself, you know what, I'm not good at this skiing thing. Just might not be for you. Yeah, I'm going to try something else. Maybe something legal. Because this time, they're facing over 50 counts, all revolving around theft. Now, Catherine told authorities that there wasn't anything she wouldn't do for David.

And we kind of touched on that, right? Already by this point in her life, and she's still very young, she is so attached to David Bernie, so I don't know what the word is, spellbound, captivated, so into him that she would do anything, anything that David said to do, she would do. And she's going to prove that even more as we go down this road. David gets a two and a half year prison term, which kind of, to me, Gibbs seemed light. It seems light to me. Because he'd got, he'd received four years, basically.

Now he's escaped from prison and he's facing 50 counts and he gets an additional two and a half. It seemed hard for me to reconcile that. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It's hard to add that up. This time, Catherine doesn't get off. She gets six months and her baby. is taken away from her. She's separated from the baby until she's released. But six months,

not very long time for all the things that she's done in her young life to me. And when Catherine gets out, she doesn't have David. David's got a sentence that is much longer than hers. She gets a job as a living nanny to a family in Fremantle. And she ends up falling in love with a man named Donald McLaughlin, he's the son of this family that she's being the nanny for. They would get married in 1972. By that time, Catherine is 21 years old and she would go on to have seven children with Donald. Wow.

And it's kind of hard to believe, right? We know this story is about Catherine and David. Yeah, but seven kids, man. She has seven kids with this Donald McLaughlin. the first is a son born not that long after they got married in 72 when the baby is seven months old Catherine witnesses her infant son being killed after the baby was crushed by a car wow so heartbreaking and later on after all of these horrors of what David and Catherine are going to do you know after they come out it's going to be a lot of professionals.

examining this one incident and, you know, trying to figure out what the significance of it was in relation to what's going to happen. You know, what did this really do to her? Her marriage to Donald would kind of, it was rocky. It would steadily decline. She was never really that happy in this marriage. They didn't have much money. Apparently neither of them were very tidy. The home that they lived was described as an unbelievable pigsty. So she's looking after six kids, because obviously the first child died. Donald is unemployed.

So it doesn't seem to me Gibbs, like a situation that's going to last very long. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing really wanting to keep somebody there, right? I mean, waking up, the place is a pile junk.

It doesn't, it doesn't sound like an ideal relationship. No, no. Nobody's doing anything, right? Doesn't seem like it, except for taking care of a bunch of kids. Yeah, which is, that's a lot. That's a lot. I get that.

But I'm just meaning, you know, yeah, I don't see it being the ideal situation for them. So add to that the fact that David Bernie is out of prison. He tracks Catherine down and they reunite again. Reunited. It feels so good. Yeah. They'd been apart for a long time, you know, a long number of years. But it's almost as if this connection, this bond that the two of them developed as children,

fostered, grew as teens. It's like it was just, it was so strong. Like they could not stay apart. And the two begin having an affair. And one day, Catherine, she just realizes that all she wants is David. So she calls up her husband Donald and says, I'm not coming. back. I'm out. Good luck with the six kids and being unemployed and living in a filthy house. I'm out. I'll send you a card. Now, Catherine and David would never marry, but she would legally change her

last name to Bernie. So that's why when you see it, she's referred to as Catherine Bernie. So we fast forward just a little bit, 85, 86 time frame. You know, David and Catherine are now 35 years old. They're together. They had been together. They led separate lives and then they got back together. Separate lives, huh? Putting that Phil Collins on. That's another song.

Yeah. And they're now living at the house at three more house street in Willoughy. And Willoughy is, is a kind of a suburb of Perth, Western Australia. Okay. I did a lot of research on geography for this one, Gibbs. You could just ask me, I would have told you. That's true. Did you know that Australia has one of the longest single highway in the world?

Really? Yeah. I would have never thought that because of the way that Australia is shaped. Right. But it goes around like the outside of it. Oh, okay. Loops around. Yeah.

So then you think like, oh, that's pretty long ways. It would be a pretty long way. That's just the kind of nugget that you get on TCAT. That's right. You just drop it right there. You don't need it, but we're going to give it to you anyway. Now you know. You having coffee with somebody later today?

You can say, hey, did you know? Stump somebody with that one, probably. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsor, E-Harmony. Now, if you've ever tried online dating, chances are you run into at least one of the following. Lazy text messages, dead-in conversations, or random matches that don't turn into dates. But I know you've seen the commercials, you've seen the success stories from E-Harmony. These are real people finding real. matches with e-harmony and Wondry the company that we're with has a team member that is using

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to fall in love with someone and have a meaningful relationship, there's one app that's built to bring you real love. E-Harmony. Come see how E-Harmony can change your life. Go to E-Harmony.com and get started. Enter our code T-Cat at checkout. That's T-C-A-T-T. So this house at three more house street is little white brick two-bedroom bungalow. It's run down. It's overgrown with weeds. it was said to have been Gibbs by far the worst looking house on the block, hands down. Really? I think there was even a quote. Somebody said that this house made every other house on the street look like a palace.

Wow. That's bad. That's the difference. And I've seen a lot of houses, man. Yeah, you and I both have seen a lot of houses in some of the things that we've done. Right. That's pretty bad, man. And you never want to, you never want to be that person.

No, never want to be the one that everybody drives by and says, what in the hell? What are these people doing? Number one, they're dragging down our property value. That's right. Number two, I'm tired of looking at it every day. But as with most of the things in their lives that have happened up to this point, this relationship between David and Catherine, it's not going to fit into what most people would think of as normal.

First of all, David Bernie had an insatiable appetite for sex. At one point, David Younger brother came to live with the couple after he was released from prison. He served six months for indecent acts with his six-year-old niece. And only six months? Six months. But get this, Gibbs. This is the kicker. He would tell a reporter once, quote, the six-year-old led me on.

You don't know what they can be like. Are you kidding me? Can you believe that? I read that quote and I was like, it's one of the most disgusting things I think I've ever read. That's, that is sickening. He is blaming a six-year-old for his immoral behavior. How's, you know, no six-year-old has ever led an adult on in the history of the world. Yeah, that's not happening.

I mean, it's just, it's so idiotic to even say. But James will go on to talk about his brother, you know, later on and would say, and would say, that his brother David was into kinky sex. He was heavily into pornography. And he said that David needed sex five or six times a day. Really? That seems like a lot. Now, maybe it's my age, but I get a little tired just thinking about that number. You get tired of just thinking, period. That's true. At my age, you get tired just thinking. But James would also give this little nugget, which is that his brother David would inject some type of numbing agent into his penis with a syringe before he had sex to make himself last longer. Uh, what's really going to some

lengths there? No pun intended. No pun intended. But you're having sex five, six times a day, and you're wanting it to last as long. I mean, obviously you don't have a job. That can't be good for the hormone levels either. No. If you're having these long marathon sexual escapades five,

six times a day, obviously you're not working. Nobody with a real job has time for that. No. To inject stuff into their, in their penis. Well, what, I would never be injecting anything into that.

No, never. That's just needles don't belong there. So it's no stretch. probably to say that David and Catherine had a lot of sex. They probably tried everything that you can think of and some stuff that you've only read about. But nothing was ever enough. And before long, they started talking about abducting and raping a woman. So they've exhausted basically every kinky sexual act that they can think of to do on their own.

So we've done all the legal stuff. So I guess now we're going to have to go outside of that. That's literally what their their mindset was. How are we going to, you know, find something else to give us the, the sexual rush that we need? But it's fascinating to talk about the way that David sold this to Catherine. He told her that she would achieve the best orgasms that she'd ever had in her entire life. by watching him have sex with another woman that was restrained. So this is his cell job on this, huh?

You got to be a pretty damn good salesman. Yeah, baby, listen to me. Now listen. This is how it's going to go. You and I are going to pick up somebody. I'm going to restrain her. I'm going to do all this stuff to her. And you're going to sit there and watch me

and you're going to have the best orgasm ever. You just summed it up. That's basically what he said. Now, was David Bernie the master salesman or was Catherine just so eager to please? Yes. Just participate. Which I think it's the latter. Yeah.

I think she would have run through a brick wall for him for whatever reason. Because obviously there was something in Catherine that either made her believe David or just the sheer fact that she wanted to believe him. She wanted to please him. And we know she had said it before. She had told authorities before she would do anything for David Bernie. Yeah. And she did. So now we have to talk about their first victim.

And it's a 22 year old student by the name of Mary Nielsen. She's studying psychology. She's working part time at a deli in Perth. And it's on October 6, 1986 that Mary drops by the house that David and Catherine live at. She had actually met David earlier at the place that he worked. She was looking for tires for her car. And David was working at kind of a junk yard, spare parts yard, whatever you want to call it. And he told her that if she would come by the house, he would give her a much better deal. So to a university student, probably strapped for cash,

sure. That sounded like a good idea. As Nielsen, the Bernie house, she was seized at knife point. She was bound, she was gagged, and she was chained to the bed. And Catherine Bernie watched as David Bernie repeatedly raped this girl. And she talked to him. As this encounter unfolded, she asked him questions about the attack. What was turning him on about it. It's a very strange scene to... It's bizarre. Yeah, it is. To think about that this can really happen. They eventually took Mary to the Glen Eagles National Park. David Bernie raped her again and then strangled her with a nylon cord and stabbed her through the heart. Wow. Killing her, obviously. Absolutely.

they buried her in a shallow grave at this national park and there was a thought that I think they had they were going to do this repeatedly I think they had already made up their mind about that this was not going to be a one-time thing they were going to make essentially gives their own graveyard inside of this national park this would be the place where they would dump all of the bodies Now, to get away with what they called the perfect murder, they drove Mary's car and they parked it near police headquarters because they thought that that was a way to not arouse suspicion. I'm not sure I follow that logic completely. Yeah, I don't either. But Catherine would later say that they had spent many weeks doing research on the best way to commit murder and get away with them.

it. So this was not random. This was something that they had been planning for some time. Now, the victim and the circumstance kind of fell into place for them because David meets Mary at, you know, his place of work and, you know, kind of just all fell into place. But they had been planning on doing something for a very long time. Because after this first murder, they start going out hunting for victims. They're actively driving around searching for women. The second murder occurred just a couple of weeks later on October 20th when they picked up a 15-year-old named Susanna Candy. She had been walking, hitchhiking along the Stirling Highway in Claremont.

And within seconds of her getting inside the car, they had a knife to her throat. They ended up binding her hands. She was taken back to the house on Morehouse Street. And this time, they forced the victim, Susanna, to write letters to her family saying that she had run away to Queensland with her friends. So they had thought about this, right, beforehand. Sure they did. This is another way. This is the perfect murder.

And this is a little reminiscent of the Gertrude Banishevsky case that we just did a little while back, she also tried to do that same thing, right, to cover her tracks. But they are able to get Suzanne to write these letters that they're going to send out. Then they gag her. They chain her to the bed and she's raped. And after David Bernie had finished the sexual assault, Catherine gets into the bed. So there's the three of them. Right. And David is going to strangle this 15 year old girl. but Catherine wants to be in the bed. It's hard to... She wants to be in the bed when it occurs.

Yes. Yeah. She had maybe set on the sidelines watching him do this horrible act, but when it comes to the ultimate sin murder, she wants to be in it. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, she does. I mean, it doesn't make sense, but...

No, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you're trying to say. Front row center. Exactly. So David attempts to strangle... Susanna, but she, she flips out. I mean, she is fighting him tooth and nail. So they have to go to plan B. And plan B is to force sleeping pills down her throat, which they do. They're able to do that and it puts this girl to sleep. And obviously, once she's asleep, David very easily is able to slip a nylon cord around her neck. Yeah. And, and tight. And, and tight. And,

it until she dies until he strangles her. They buried Susanna Candy in another shallow grave in the state forest. But what would come out later is that it was Catherine and not David that was calling the shots. And this is part of this case that I found so fascinating. Because we know the pair is out driving around. They're looking for a female to pick up, you know, a hitchhiker, somebody that needs a ride. But it was up to Catherine as to whether or not she thought the person that they picked up would make a suitable victim. And they had gone as far as setting up a, like a secret code word or phrase. So when they got somebody in the car, they would have a phrase that would be an innocuous phrase, it wouldn't throw off panic or alarm to the passenger.

If Catherine mentioned to David that she had the munchies, that was the signal. That was the code that they had come up with, that the person that they had picked up was going to be their next victim. Catherine also had with her a very large knife that she called Bubba. Bubba. Bubba. And once she said the code word, that knife was coming out. And she was she, not David.

Right. Number one, making the decision. Number two, holding the knife against, you know, a woman or a girl's throat until they got back to the house. So she'd say munchies, and he knew. Yep. And then meanwhile, the girl's like, yeah, munchies. I'm hungry. but then she said Bubba and then it really gets serious.

No, it would. I just, at first I thought Catherine was just going along with whatever David wanted. And to a degree, I think she did. But there's no doubt she becomes a very willing and active participant. She's calling the shots for crying out loud. Well, I mean, clearly she enjoyed taking a life. She did. And she'll talk about it.

She enjoyed the sexual aspect of it too. Yeah. She enjoyed the whole thing. We've done some other episodes on some killers that got off. I mean, a while they were strangling, why they were stabbing, taking that last breath, that last look when the light and their eyes went out, you know, that really got them off. Tommy Lin-Sales loved that. I mean, she's just like that.

Like that, but with the added component of she's also doing it with somebody else and to a large degree, I think, for somebody else. But she's enjoying it herself. And I think she would admit that later. On November 1st, they saw 31 year old Nolene Patterson. She was standing beside her car on a highway in East Fremantle. She had run out of gas while she was on her way home from work. She got into the Bernie car and very quickly she had a knife to her throat. She was tied. up and told not to move. So they took Nolene back to the house on Moore House. David Bernie repeatedly raped her after she had been gagged and chained to the bed.

Now, originally, they were going to do the same thing with this third victim that they had done with the first two. They were going to murder her that night. But they didn't. They actually kept her prisoner for three days. And the thought was that David Bernie really liked this woman. He had some type of feelings for her. I don't mean feelings in the way that most people had.

He was attracted to her. And she was attractive. She was intelligent. She was everything that Catherine Bernie wanted to be and wasn't. And this didn't go over well. I know she's got some jealousy written all over it. Catherine got very jealous. She could see what was going on.

You know, number one, why did we not kill this girl, this woman? Why is she still here three days later? And you know she could sense and see the way David was acting. So she gave him an ultimatum. Either David killed Nolene or Catherine would kill herself. Like literally commit suicide. This was the ultimatum that she put to David. And obviously, David had strong feelings for Catherine.

They, I don't know how to describe this strange bond that they had, but it was a real bond. And he didn't want her to hurt herself. So he forced sleeping pills down the throat of, of Nolene Patterson while she was asleep. And he strangled her. They took her body out to the forest and buried it with, with the others. But before she was killed, during that three-day period, they forced her to call friends and ask them if they would go pick up her car. They forced her to tell these friends that she was staying with another set of friends. So again, they were trying to set it up that she would not be missed right away.

But it was also reported that Catherine Bernie, as they were burying Nolene's body out in the forest, she gathered up a bunch of sand and threw it in her face. And that made her very happy. She took pleasure in that. It's kind of an odd thing to do. Well, it's because she was attractive. Yeah, Catherine was threatened by her. Yeah.

So throwing sand at her face, made her feel better about herself for some reason. She was jealous, she was threatened. On November 5th, they picked up 21-year-old Denise Brown as she was waiting at a bus stop. So she accepts this ride from the Bernies. And like some of the others, pretty quickly, she finds herself with a knife held to her throat. She's taken to the house on Morehouse in Willoughy. She's chained to the bed. She's raped by David Bernie.

The following afternoon, they, take her out to the forest. So they're out in the forest all by themselves. David Bernie rapes this woman again inside the car in the middle of the forest. And then he does it again outside of the car. They had dragged her outside of the car. He assaults her again. And while this is happening, Catherine plunges a knife into her neck while he is assaulting her. So they believe that Denise Brown is dead. dead and they dig a shallow grave like they had done with the others and they put her body in this shallow grave. But all of a sudden, Gibbs, this woman sits up in the grave. Well, that's

freaky. She's not dead. No. And David Bernie grabs an axe and he swings it twice into her skull as hard as he can. So at that point, she is dead. Right. And they bury her in the shallow grave. So after Denise Brown goes missing, there is a detective working the case by the name of Paul Ferguson. So you know he's got to be a kick-ass detective or something to have that name. Sure. Ferguson. Yeah, I get it. But he's working the case and he starts to become convinced that they got a serial killer on their hands because a number of women have disappeared.

I mean, you can put the timeline together in your head. but Denise's disappearance was the fourth young woman in less than a month. I mean, it's definitely a reason to have concerns, man. Well, and especially in Perth, that's what I got from it, was that, you know, this was out of the ordinary for Perth. It wouldn't be if you were a detective in New York City. That kind of stuff happens all the time. Well, I don't know if this stuff happens. Well, I don't know about this.

But yeah, you're right. I mean, they're used to dealing with a high-level type of crime. If this happened here where we live, it would be front page sound all the alarms. Now, Perth is obviously a lot bigger than where we live. Sure. But from the research, I got that back in the 80s, this was not something that they experienced, to this degree anyway. Exactly. Now, maybe in Sydney, Melbourne, you know, something like that.

But not Perth. Now I want to go to Perth. Actually, I just like saying the word Perth. If you're happy, we're happy for you. Clap your hand. Yeah, got their hands. But the other thing in talking about all these missing women, we are not talking about streetwalkers.

We're not talking about people that are putting themselves in dangerous situations other than the hitchhiking. They're not going down a bad path. These are girls and women that came from good families. The detective starts to believe that they wouldn't just all. get up and leave. Yeah, I mean, when you sit back and you analyze it, you know, it just would not make sense that you'd had that many just flee.

Yeah, they're not transient people that you would say, okay, it makes sense that they might be gone for a while because they do that. No, these were people with families and responsibilities and things like that. So he starts the investigation. He's, you know, digging into boyfriends and lovers and trying to see it. if maybe any of them had drug problems that their family wasn't aware of. He's not finding any of that. So he's thinking serial killer.

But the problem is that two of the women had contacted people. They had been forced to by the Bernies. So that was really throwing the police off a little bit. Were they really missing? Because they had essentially reached out to people. So that's the four individuals that, they murdered. So we had Mary Nielsen, Susanna Candy, Nolene Patterson, and Denise Brown. That's the four victims. But there was a fifth victim that was intended to be murdered that we have to talk about. And this was a 17-year-old girl named Kate Moyer. The Bernie's get Kate in the car. All of a sudden, she has a knife to her throat, and she's taken back to the house. And just like the other victims, she's chained to the bed and she's raped repeatedly by David

Bernie while Catherine watched. Just sits there and watches and enjoys the torture and gets enjoyment out of that. Well, I mean, clearly she's getting herself off. Yeah. I mean, there's something or she wouldn't be doing it, right? There's something that she's getting out of it. Now, the next morning, David. goes to work and Catherine is left to watch over Kate, she ends up taking off her chains because

she wants her to make a phone call. She wants her to call her parents and make up a story that she had spent the night of her friends. So much like she had done with a couple of the other victims, but somebody's at the door and Catherine goes to answer the door leaving Kate unsecured. And Kate is able to escape out of a window. And there are a lot of people Gibbs in the research and a lot of different articles that I read that believe it's possible that Catherine by this point was sick of the murders, that she really didn't want Kate to be murdered. Now, I don't know if I believe this or not. I'm just throwing it out there. And that she may have intentionally left Kate unsecured so that she could.

get away. I don't believe that. I don't think I do either, but there's a lot of speculation about that. So that afternoon, Monday the 10th, November 1986, 17-year-old Kate Moyer burst into a supermarket in Fremantle. And the customers were startled. I mean, this is a 17-year-old girl. She's half-naked. She's crying, telling people that she had been raped and that she'd gotten away. So obviously they call the police. She's taken down to the station. She tells the story of what happened to her. But there's officers at the station that I don't think are believing her story.

But there's at least one that does. There's a young female police officer that interviews Kate. She's not that much older. I mean, she had just come out of the academy. And she can tell as she's hearing this story, as she's sizing up Kate while she's talking, she knows this is real. This is not a lie.

And Kate Moyer was kind of a, she was amazing. First of all, that she escaped. That, that was amazing. But she had the, at 17 years old,

had the forethought to think of and remember a bunch of details from the house. So one of the things that she's telling this officer, this female officer, that there was a movie in the VCR and it was Rocky. The band Dyer Straits was playing on a cassette player. And she said that the man and woman used fake names while they were talking, when they were addressing each other. But she remembered seeing a medicine bottle with the name on it, David Bernie.

And on top of that, she tells this young officer that she had, had Kate drawn some pictures while she was in the house and hidden them. She wanted someone to know that she had been there in case she didn't make it out. I mean, imagine this is a 17-year-old girl thinking of things that I'm not sure a lot of us would think of in that instance, scared to death. Sure, absolutely. She's doing some amazing things. Yeah.

But it's when she mentions this name, David Burns. that the police really start to take her seriously. They know David Bernie. We've talked about it. He had a lengthy criminal record by that time. And on top of all those details, Gibbs, she's able to give them the house number. So the police load her up in the car.

They go to three more house street. Catherine Bernie is home. They start to talk to her. And she actually admits that she recognizes the girl in the car, but says that she's not going to answer any questions without David. So they go get David and bring him back in handcuffs. But what the couple claims is that they had not abducted this girl. She had come to the house of her own free will to party with them, do drugs, have sex, but that all of the sex was consensual. Well, yeah, of course they got to sell that to the police.

So leaving Kate in the car, they go inside the house, and it's not hard to figure out. They see the chains. They see the handcuffs. Basically, everything they're seeing confirms what Kate had told them. They even find the movie Rocky in the VCR. They find the dire straits. They find her drawings. And they find some sleeping pills that the Bernie's tried to.

get her to take, but she wouldn't do. She hid them under the mattress. So these were all details that she was able to give police and they were able to corroborate it very easily. So they hauled David and Catherine in and they're grilling them for hours, but they're not cracking. You know, they're not giving anything up. And then all of a sudden a detective comes up with an idea. He tells David Bernie that they're done messing around with him. They're just going to get the shovels and start digging up the graves. Now, they're bluffing at this point. They don't know where these graves are. And David Bernie falls for this. And he tells detectives, okay, there's four of them. That was fast. Yeah. It was a great bluff and it worked. Now, when Catherine

is told that David had confessed, she folded as well. She broke down and she told everything. Not only that, they led police to the graves of Mary Nielsen, Susanna Candy, Nolene Patterson, and Denise Brown. I mean, I'm glad they do this stuff at the end, so it gives the family some peace of mind. But it's just really weird that they have any type of compassion now. I don't think they had compassion. And I tell you why. I agree with you, though, that it's a good thing.

But there were people that were involved in this trip that went, that took the Bernies to find these graves that later came out and said, they were excited, the Bernies. It was like they were showing off what they had. I don't know if they had compassion. Like a little victory tour. It was almost like they were excited to show the police. Now, after they'd been caught. Well, at least the family's got one's back. And I agree with that part.

I agree with what you said. but I don't know if it was compassion or if it was it was almost like they were proud of what they had done and they were like here we're showing you trophies yeah we're proud of this look at it I mean it's sick but I think there's an element of that yeah so they're both sent to trial David Bernie you know pleaded guilty to four counts of murder and one count each for the four of abduction and rape Now, this goes back to your point, Gibbs, in a different way, though, because he's asked why he's pleading guilty, why he's not, you know, fighting it. And apparently he points to the victim's families. And he says, it's the least I could do.

Really? So maybe there is something to that, in that part, at least. I don't know. You just never know with these people what their motives are. Right. for some of these things that they do. Now, he's ultimately sentenced to four consecutive life sentences. And it was reported in the paper that David Bernie was trembling as if he was in fear as the sentence was read.

Oh, poor guy. So big bad monster. Yeah. When he has the upper hand. But now the systems got him and he has no control. and he's about ready to piss as Dr. Denton's. Do you say Dr. Denton's?

Yeah. Okay. Wouldn't that like the old? I don't know. I thought that was like an old... I thought you were throwing some Australian lingo on me. No, for some reason that popped into my head is like an old clothing that kids used to wear. I think I had some Dr. Dentons.

I don't know. It's like your husky jeans, maybe. Leave my husky jeans out of this. Somebody will say, oh, yeah, I wore Dr. Dinsor, they'll say, no, we have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, they never say that. Either way, it brings a smile to my face to think of him trembling and fear. Sure.

And just think of him as completely without control, I guess, because he did these horrible things and, you know, now he's on the other, he's on the other end of it. Now, Catherine Bernie was a little different. she was charged with the same things. The issue with her was whether or not she was sane enough to stand trial. So it took a little bit longer. She had evaluations done, but eventually she was found to be fit to stand trial. And she ends up getting the same sentence for consecutive life sentences.

And the justice would say, quote, in my opinion, you should never be released to be with David Bernie. You should never be allowed to see him again. Never, ever. So initially they shipped David Bernie off to a maximum security prison in Fremantle. Yeah. But then he gets moved to solitary confinement because apparently he was a danger to other prisoners. I don't know how because if you look at this guy, he looks like a broomstick.

Yeah, it could have been the other way around too. they might have put him in solitary confinement to protect him from the others. Well, it could be, but there are going to be some people that levy some accusations. I'll talk about it here in a minute. So he stayed in this second prison, solitary confinement, until the prison closed in 1990. Now, while they were in prison, David and Catherine exchanged over 2,600 letters that they wrote back and forth to each other. again Gibbs these people there was something there yeah no doubt i mean they there was something between them two but in such a wrong way man harnessed in the right way they would have been soulmates

they would have been they would have made the best pair ever yeah it just wasn't healthy it just went so far the other way now david bernie was found dead in his cell on october 7th 2005 he hung himself and getting back to kind of what you were talking about the very next day after he hung himself he was supposed to be in court for the rape of a fellow prisoner because let's not forget this man had an unbelievable sex drive that didn't go away that's true and it sounds like he was trying to take it out any way he could again, I go back to you, look at this guy. He is about 110 pounds, I swear.

I really don't know how much you weigh, but he was a little guy. Yeah. And to me, looking at him, I would have thought he would have been eaten up in prison. He would have been the prey, not the predator. But that's apparently not what happened. Because this man that accused him of rape, they ultimately awarded him a bunch of money that I think the government had to pay him. Yeah, imagine so.

Because he was, for not protecting him, maybe. So Catherine Bernie is imprisoned in Bandyup women's prison. And apparently she's the head librarian there. So how about that? If you need to get your books, you go see Catherine. Interesting. And she hands out the books. Well, you know, trying to reform.

She first comes up for parole in 2007. That's rejected. And the person that was the attorney general of Western Australia at that time said that she would not be released as long as he was in office. He knew this woman was a monster. He was not going to let her out. But just the fact that she was even up for parole caused a firestorm. Kate Moyer, who he talked about, that was the 17-year-old girl that escaped.

She basically made it her mission to do everything in her power. to make sure that Catherine Bernie never got out. Good for her. Then you had one of the arresting officers. We talked about Paul Ferguson, kick-ass guy. Of course. Fergie, Fergie. He would come out and rail against Catherine being paroled as well.

Yeah. Kathy and David Bernie did not and have never given the victims one ounce of thought. This one was terrifying, absolutely terrifying, because the victims were just toys, were just instruments. Kathy Bernie, you forfeitured your right to walk out that door because those poor girls didn't deserve it.

Didn't deserve it. Sounds like something you would say, Gibbs. Didn't deserve it? No, she forfeited her right to ever walk out of that prison for what she did to those girls. Of course she did. It just sounds like something you would say.

Yeah. It's in my book. Called some things that I say. Some things I say. And then I want to play a clip from one of Catherine's sons. He was only five years old when she was arrested. And he would come out publicly speaking out against his mother getting paroled. I've been bashed over.

I've lost my teeth, my gob over it. I've been knocked out. Does that explain your teeth? Explains my teeth. No teeth left to hardly my gob. From the bashings. From the bashings. and that sort of stuff, yes.

Because you're the son of Catherine Burney. Yes. I never stop loving any of you kids, but I thought you'd be safer with your father. I am not proud of what has been said about me, but I have to live with that and the memories. Once again, I love to all of your kids, and I hope you,

hope one day you'll come to see your mum. Maybe you're right to me because I really like to hear from all of you. I love you, kids. It's rubbish. She's at that stage now where she's eligible for parole, she wants to try to get close to one, at least one of us family members,

so we'll say, oh, yeah, we'll take on a responsibility if you do get out that you turn up to all your parole board meetings and all that sort of stuff. And we don't want that. Anyone that takes someone's life should never be allowed to live themselves.

Wouldn't bother you if she was killed, executed? Wouldn't bother me. Would not bother me. I'd party for a week. Hurry up and die. So I just had to play that clip because there were so many fascinating parts of it. First off, you never really hear about the kids of serial killers and what they must go through.

I mean, this poor kid got the, you know what, kicked out of him. He did, man. You heard he doesn't have any teeth. Nope. People bashed his teeth out. Yeah, they're gone. He said out of his gob. I think that's mouth. Mouth, yeah. I think that's Australian for mouth. It should be. But it's not a laughing matter. he he went through hell. No, it's not laughing. I mean, it's kind of funny how he said it. Yeah,

I mean, to be honest, I was over here laughing the way he said it, but, uh, but not about what happened. No,

not about what happened. So, and then for him to say that, so then he read that letter from, that was from Catherine. Right. And you can hear him talk about it. He knew and his siblings knew,

she didn't give a rat's ass about them. I mean, you hear him tearing the letter up. Yeah, he called it rubbish. He knew, they all knew that all she was trying to do was get someone to vouch for her. Yeah.

A family member to come forward to help her get parole. And they weren't having it. No, she needs to be right where she's sitting. So Catherine's case was set to be reviewed again in 2010. But in 2009, there was a new attorney general in Western Australia. And he basically said, she's not getting parole. He changed her status to never to be released. So as of right now,

Catherine Bernie's never getting out unless something changes. And I'm, I'm okay with that. I'm kind of with her son. I'm totally okay with that. Yes, same here. That's it, Gibbs. That is the case of David and Catherine Bernie.

Unbelievable sociopaths. They really were, man. Well, you and I have done a lot of cases about single individuals. This one really kind of got me because it was two people, a man and a woman, working in concert, working towards the same horrible goal. And we really didn't talk about it as we talked about the victims, but you know there was an element there where these women would have probably accepted a ride from a man and a woman where if it had been a scary looking man, they would have said no, right? The fact that a female was in the car, I guarantee you it probably made it, at least in their minds,

seem safer. Absolutely. It did. And the fact that Catherine played such a role, I mean, she was the determiner of essentially who became a victim. Well, yeah. I mean, it was her code word of who it was going to be. It was also her code word when it was going to go down. All right. We got some voicemails. You want to do those? Let's do that. Maybe it'll make us feel a little bit better. Yeah, maybe. Hey, guys. This is Amy from Virginia. I actually had a suggestion for a K. There is an alleged serial killer who has been convicted of killing two young women in Virginia around Charlotte's. ville, Virginia. That's where the University of Virginia is.

Go Cavaliers. Anyway, his name is Jesse Matthews, Jr. And he adopted a girl who was a Virginia Tech student from a Metallica concert at the John Jones Arena and Charlottesville. And

I was about the same age as the girl at the time that she went missing, and I was also a Metallica fan, and I have ties to Virginia Tech. So whenever she went missing, it really resonated with me. Check out Jesse Matthews Jr. in the Charlottesville area. Check that case out. And I'd love to hear it one day if you guys ever have time. So yeah, keep doing what you're doing. He does rock. Bye. All right. Appreciate the voicemail. Jesse Matthews Jr.

Yeah. Make sure that he's on the list. You got Metallica. I always like it when people call in they're like University of Virginia. Go Cavaliers. Yeah. And they slide it in real fast. You have to slide it in. Yeah. Be like Ohio State. Bug-Eye. Go Buckeyes. Yeah. It's a must. You have to do it. You got to represent. Hi, Mike and Gibby. It's Wendy Callaway. I'm originally from England, but now living in Sunny, California.

I just want to say, I love the podcast. Looking forward to seeing you at CrimeCon. And for anybody that's considering going to CrimeCon, but isn't quite sure. I've already recommended it. I went last year. It was amazing. Can't wait to see you. Bye. Well, awesome. We can't wait to see you. Oh, I think it's going to be great.

It really is. At first, I thought that was you calling in to do your Australian accent. Did you? And it had morphed into a British. So you thought I was doing a female? Yeah. Your accents kind of go all over the place. They really do, you know.

Just think if I drank. You do drink sometimes. If I drank, drink. Well, I guarantee when we get to CrimeCon, when you get a couple in you, people are going to want to hear some accents. Oh, those is flow naturally. In gibbiasms. There's going to be a lot of requests.

Yeah. Hey, y'all. It's Angel from Swamber, South Carolina. I'm just going to let you know that I really love your podcast. I'm in my car just about all day. And so I get tired of listening to the radio, and that gives me free today. Burtmer's been in the news recently because of the Todd Cole helped murders. And I hope to hear that on your show one day.

But just God will let you know that I love your show and you keep your own time ticking. Thanks. You all have a blessed day. So I've said it before. I'll say it again, Gibbs. I love the range of accents. I know it. They're great.

I love it. You all are wonderful to hear it. Now, Todd Colhap is definitely on the list. Sure is. Has been on the list for a long time. And we will definitely get to him. Hi, Mike. Hi, hi, Gibby.

This is Taylor from Southern Wisconsin. I just wanted to tell you guys that I listen to your podcast, like eight hours. every day. I work in a factory. And it just helps the day fly by. I love your humor. I love all of the information that you have on the cases and the respect that you give to the victims

of those crimes. And I just want to let you guys know to keep up the good work and that you give a lot of people out there, a lot of entertainment. Mike and Givie, I love you. And, you know, keep your own time taken. Bye. Yeah. I mean, very nice voicemail.

Yeah. Makes us feel good. I love you too. We do. And when people say that we entertain them, we help them, whatever, I don't care what they get from the podcast. Just as long as they listen and it brings something to them. I always say, let me entertain you. It's an awesome feeling.

It really is. And she's from southern Wisconsin. So, you know, she's down there by all those lakes. You giving a geography lesson? Yeah. Okay. Do you know all that? All right, Rand McNally.

Wrap it up. Oh, like that. That was a good reference. Yeah. Ran. McNaill. That's a strong. Hey, that's a strong name.

That is Rand. Yeah, ran. A lot of people probably won't know what that is. They have to be of a certain age. Yeah, they don't understand what a Atlas, a roadmap. They're like, what? You know, a Waze app? I used Ways app.

Did you? I was like, just Ways it. Yeah, I love my Ways app. I do, too. Yeah. I think everybody should use Ways. I don't want to trade Ways in and go back to, you know, a hundred page Atlas that you got flip flip fold and shove into your need a uh need a passenger just to help decipher where you're going

yeah it didn't talk to you either no all right we appreciate it we love everyone yep we're always amazed by the support we get so thank you thank you to everyone but that's it that's it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and gibby stay safe and keep your own time ticking