True Crime All The Time - Denise Huber

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

Denise Huber was abducted in the early morning hours of June 3rd, 1991, after her car broke down on the side of the freeway. Denise’s disappearance was one of the most sensational cases in Orange County, California. Three years later, her body was found under shocking circumstances. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the disappearance and murder of Denise Huber. Denise’s case was featured on America’s Most Wanted and Inside Edition, but the case went cold. On July 13th, 1994, the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office responded to a call about a possible stolen truck parked outside 37-year-old John Famalaro’s home in Dewey, Arizona. This call began the investigation into Famalaro that ultimately led to him being charged with Denise's murder. You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 524 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Carrie Martin.

It's like Carrie like that famous song. That was written for her. Did you know that? I did not know that song I'm talking about? I do not. The 80s? Carrie. I don't even know if that's the word.

I don't even know if that's the word. I do remember that song. I'm not sure I ever really knew how to pronounce the whatever they were saying. We had Gina R. What's going on, Gina? Becky Ross. Ah, Ross in the house. Deanna.

Just good old Deanna. Just good old. Yeah. Tina Bishop jumped out at our highest level. What's up, Bishop? Angela Gunderson. Hey, I like that Gunderson. It sounds like, ugh.

Okay. Whatever that means. Yeah. And last and not least, D. We already talked about D on Patreon. We did. And if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected fluful. Fluful. Yeah. It's fun to say. Everybody needs some fluful. Sure.

We also had a great PayPal donation from Deanna Gentry. And Deanna, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. So we have an episode out right now on True Crime All the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the disappearance of eight-year-old Zachary Bernhardt. He went missing nearly 26 years ago on September 11th. 2000. Zachary has never been found. And his case is the longest running Amber alert in the state of Florida. And that's not a record you want to have. No, it's not, unfortunately. But tune in for that one. Check it out. And then on next Thursday's T-Cat, we're talking about Samuel Hosh Stettler, an Amish teenager, who was recently since to 25 years to life for aggravated murder. This is a fascinating case. Prosecutors argued that Hosh Stettler killed Rosanna Kinsinger during a non-consensual sexual encounter,

while the defense argued that her death was accidental. I had to use some of my Pennsylvania Dutch when we were researched this. Sure, just to figure out what was going on. But, you know, I said it was fascinating. Number one, because, you know, the people involved are Amish. And that's a different way of life than, you know, what most of us are used to. but it also comes into play during the legal proceedings. You know,

what did this guy understand in the form of his Miranda rights and all of those different things? All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Denise Huber. Denise Huber was abducted in the early morning hours of June 3rd, 1991. After her car broke down on the side of the freeway, Denise's disappearance was one of the most of the.

most sensational cases in Orange County, California. Three years later, her body was found under shocking circumstances. So June 3rd, 1991 was right about the time I was graduating from high school. Yeah, you were, so it's a young pup back then. And just a head full of gorgeous hair. Yes, I see the pictures. It was actually pretty nice. It was.

It was glorious. Denise Huber was a 23rd. year old waitress and a recent graduate of the University of California at Irvine. Denise graduated in 1990 with a degree in social sciences. At the time of her death, she was living with her parents in Newport Beach, California. Nice area. Very nice. The job market was tight, so Denise worked as a waitress at the cannery restaurant in

Newport Beach and had a job as a cashier at Broadway in the Fashion Island Shopping Mall. Well, you're going to do what you have to to make ends meet until the job market finally turns around and maybe you can get something in what you studied. Or something that pays a little bit more so you don't have to have two jobs, but you're right. You got to make ends meet. So if you have to, maybe you got two jobs and some people have to do that for sure. Denise was dating a man named Steve Horx, whom she met at the old spaghetti factory in Newport Beach. She was a waitress and he was a bartender. The old spaghetti factory.

I've ate at one of those. Or a couple of them, actually. They're franchised out. We also have the spaghetti warehouse here growing up, but the old spaghetti warehouse. I mean, the old spaghetti factory. It was all right. Yeah, I don't think I've eaten there. It's not your thing.

You like seafood and all that other nasty stuff. I like Italian, too. But I don't like to buy spaghetti at a restaurant. Yeah. I don't know why. If it's something I can make it home, I don't like to order it and pay for it. Well, that makes sense, though.

Yeah. Plus, I don't like a lot of spaghetti at restaurants. I just don't like the taste of it. You're kind of picky. I am. In the early morning hours of June 3rd, 1991, Denise and a friend left a Morrissey concert at the Great Western Forum in Englewood, California. Wow, he was a big timer back then.

Yeah. And, you know, the Great Western Forum, what an amazing venue, right? that's where the Lakers played. So many championships won there. Yeah. And, you know, concerts, all kinds of other stuff. Denise's boyfriend, Steve, had two free tickets to the concert. He gave one to Denise, but he couldn't attend because he had to work.

He gave the other ticket to his friend Robert Calvert. Steve got off work early that night, but decided not to attend the concert because he was trying to save money. After Denise and Robert left the concert, they went to the El Paso canteen in Long Beach. Denise dropped Robert off at his house in Huntington Beach around 2 a.m. And then headed home. So there's a couple of things here for me.

Sounds like a pretty good night out. Then you have Steve who, you know, seems like a good guy. He's got a couple of tickets. He gives one to his girlfriend. Yeah. Gives another to his friend whom he must have trusted to go with his girlfriend. That's true. and she must have trusted Robert as well,

but it was a pretty late night, right? She doesn't drop Robert off until about 2 a.m. Denise's tire blew out on California State Route 73 and Costa Mesa, part of the Corona del Mar freeway. She managed to turn her hazards on and pull over to the shoulder. Man, I hate when a tire blows out. Yeah, I feel like it doesn't happen as much as it used to, you know, tires nowadays.

They're just constructed a lot differently than they were when you and I were younger. Now you have some of those run flats, which nobody would have dreamed of back then. Back then. But the thing is, Gibbs, Denise was less than three miles from home. She could have easily walked to a nearby call box or gas station to ask for help. but she was abducted before she could get there to any of these types of locations. Denise's parents, Dennis and Ione, Hubert, woke up later on the morning of June 3rd and discovered Denise wasn't in her bedroom. They assumed she spent the night with a friend and went about their day.

Both of them went to work. And when they came home, the niece still wasn't there. And this is kind of a very scary situation because I think a lot of us have been here. Right. You know, as your kids get older, they tend to stay out later than many of their parents are able to stay away. Yeah. So you may not know that they came home. You assume they did.

You wake up the next morning. Maybe you peek in on them. They're there. Great. But if they're not, well, then there's a serious cause. for concern. I remember several times I'd wake up. You know, I try to stay up thinking, I can stay up until, you know, they get home. Yeah. And then they didn't get home. And then I fall asleep and I wake up in panic because I'm like, did they come home? I don't remember them coming home. Yeah.

Like you said, you get up, you look. And I remember a few times like my daughter wasn't home. And then I'm automatically like looking at my phone. I'm texting like, hey, it's like four o'clock. You're not here. Where are you? Yeah. Now, I never had that problem because I stay up very, very late. Yeah. But, you know, my wife goes to bed at 738. So, you know, it's kind of hard to set a curfew for your 20, 21-year-old that's 8 o'clock. Right. Yeah, yeah.

A little tough. Yeah. I only had a gut feeling that she needed to call Denise's friends. Around 10 p.m., one of Denise's friends found her car abandoned on the side of the freeway. Her parents in the police drove over to the area. They found her car unlocked. the battery was drained from the hazard lights that were left running all day. There were signs Denise had been abducted.

Her high-heeled shoes were found at the scene and had marks indicating she was dragged. I'd be sick at that moment. Oh, absolutely. Sick to your stomach. Worry, fear, all of those emotions. Retired Costa Mesa detective Jack Archer was one of the first investigators assigned to the case. He interviewed Ione and Dennis, who said Denise was not in trouble, did not use drugs, and wouldn't just disappear for days at a time without talking to someone. And I would think

90 some percent of parents would say that about their kids. Yeah, I think so. Now, there are people who we know get into trouble, start using drugs, disappear for days at a time. But that is a small minority. Right. I think. Friends, coworkers, and acquaintances had no idea where Denise might have gone. Her boyfriend, Steve, told the LA Times, I know that lots of people have said that she probably just took off, but she would have called her parents and let them know where she was or she would have called me. And I almost say that exact same thing about most people that we talk about in unsolved disappearance cases. Yeah. I just believe that that's what happened.

Even if someone said, hey, I hate my life. I just, I got to start something new. I got to get away from everybody. They would find a way at some point in time to call their parents. They don't have to worry. To call their kids in some examples. Steve also said, I just know that foul play is involved and insisted Denise would not accept a ride from a stranger. In mid-June, investigators.

announced they were searching for a young man who told the vendor at the Orange County Swap Meet that he saw a woman resembling Denise standing with two men near a car on the shoulder of the Corona Del Mar Freeway around 2.30 a.m. on June 3rd. The man was shopping with a young woman and a baby in a stroller and stopped to look at Dolores Berg's booth. He saw a photo of Denise that Berg had posted in her booth. He commented that he remembered seeing the young woman on the freeway. What an interesting tip. Yeah, because he's got the time that lines up, right,

with her dropping Robert off at his house at 2 o'clock. Okay, he sees her standing with two men at around 2.30 a.m. It seems to line up. Yeah. But what if he didn't go to that booth that day? Well, now we're into the what ifs, right? And those are fascinating. in and of themselves in all of these cases.

He said two men were standing near a car with its trunk open. One was tall with long blonde hair and the shorter man had dark hair. Berg asked him to talk to the police, but he said, I don't like cops. And, you know, we talk a lot about why don't people come forward with information if they have it? Well, here's a reason why some people might not. They're afraid of cops. They don't like cops. Or maybe had a bad experience at one time or a family member did.

Or maybe they're wrapped up in some things that they don't want to come out. Sure. They're not involved in this, let's say, but maybe they got some other stuff going on. Yeah. And they don't want to take a chance. She asked him to call the Huber family and he indicated he didn't want to get involved and left the boot. Now, that's tough, right? Because let's say this guy didn't do anything wrong.

Let's just say he did witness what he said he did. You'd really like for him to call the cops. You'd also like for him to call the family. He doesn't want to do either. Denise and Ioni Huber would spend the next three years of their lives searching for their daughter. Family and friends raised a $10,000 reward and distributed more than 15,000 flowers. Yeah, that's a decent reward back then.

It is. That's a boatload of flyers. It's actually not a bad reward. now. No, you're true. That's true. We see it. We see a lot less. Dennis and Ione even erected a banner on the side of an apartment building along the highway where Denise disappeared. Dennis said his car became a rolling billboard with posters of his daughter all over it. Every time he saw a woman, a young woman with long brown hair. He had to see her face to see if it was Denise. I can only imagine what that had it feel like. Yeah. I mean, your whole life changes in an instant. And that's

really the only thing that you're focused on, I'm assuming. Yeah. What happened to my daughter? How do I find my daughter? Do you find yourself just driving around? And like he said, kind of looking at every young woman who has, you know, long, dark hair and just wondering if that could be her. But look, I mean, he's trying to make the effort, right? They're putting up these banners. He's got his car plastered in posters, you know, of, uh, of his daughter. Um, I mean, I think I'd do the same thing, you know? I mean, today you do like a, some type of car wrap, right? But back then, you know, just to glue those posters, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody would drive past me and you go, wait, I think I might know something about that. Well, when you think about it, is there really anything you wouldn't do? Yeah,

I don't think so. Within your power. Yeah. Right. On October 9th, 1991, P.I. Logan Clark, who was hired by Denise's parents, told the LA Times, she was probably killed by someone she knew. Investigators believed Denise was abducted as she was walking to a call box. And I don't know if everybody is familiar with what a call box is. We don't really have them here in Ohio.

Or if we do, I don't see them. Yeah. It's very much. But I think they're big in California. They are. They are. Where, you know, they're kind of every so often, maybe along a road. But it's a place where you can call for help, basically.

Like a phone, I don't think you can call anybody, but you can call an emergency number. Yeah, you get stranded. You go walk up to the call box, pick it up, and they know your location. You tell them you need help. I think they have them in New York, too. I've seen movies where they're like in New York City in different places. I've seen them in Canada, too. Maybe just not as big here in New York.

middle America. Yeah. Where we are. As time passed, Dennis and Ione's hope started to fade. The police pursued many leads, but none of them panned out. And man, I just, I feel like what a tough roller coaster for parents. You got to have hope. Of course.

But at what point does that hope start to fade? And I think it has to a little bit. Or maybe it's in the back of your mind. maybe you don't want to admit it, but it has to. Yeah. For example, officers staked out the freeway and took photos of driver's license plates, then mailed letters asking if drivers saw anything suspicious on the night of June 2nd. Denise's case was featured on America's Most Wanted and Inside Edition, but the case went cold.

Two popular shows. Yeah. Everybody would love to have that attention on their loved ones' case. Absolutely. Ione Huber said in June 1994 on the third anniversary of her daughter's disappearance, per the L.A. times, as time goes on, I realize Denise is probably not alive just to know and not have to constantly wonder what happened would be easier to handle than this mystery. That makes sense to me. And we've heard it before, right, from other family members. The not knowing is sometimes the toughest part. Hey, can we talk about banks for a minute? You know, when I was young and I'm talking 19, 20, 21 years old, I felt like my bank was hitting me with fees from every angle. And, you know, let's be honest, at that age, you don't make a lot of money and everything counts. My younger self would have

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minutes. Chime is a fintech, not a bank, banking services and chime card provided by Chimes bank partners, qualifying direct deposits required. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. On July 13th, 1994, the Alvapai County Sheriff's Office responded to a all about a possible stolen truck, parked outside 37-year-old John Familaro's home in Dewee, Arizona. The truck in question was a 24-foot rider rental truck that was reported stolen from Orange County, California six months earlier. A woman who bought paint from Familar reported this truck. He was a self-employed house painter. Dennis Huber told the L.A. Times, she saw the truck and she told us that she felt the spirit pulling her to the truck.

She felt so compelled she wrote down the license plate number. Wow, that's some intuition there. Yeah. It's also kind of chilling a little bit. Now, Familara wasn't home when police arrived at his house. The deputy at the scene noticed a power court running from the house to a freezer that was locked and sealed with tape inside the truck. authorities thought the freezer was a mobile drug lab.

But when they opened it, they found a frozen body inside a black trash bag. The victim's head was wrapped in three more trash bags, secured with duct tape. The victim was curled into the fetal position with her hands behind her back. I mean, what a scene that, you know, these investigators are walking up on. Obviously, it would be odd. This truck is reported stolen. somebody's got an extension cord or a power cord running to the back of this truck, right? Inside of it, you see that it's being run into a freezer or something.

I get it. The first thought is probably not going to be there's a body in there. It's probably going to be there's drugs going on. There's something going on. But when they uncovered this body, it had to have been shocking. I don't think anybody would ever open that up to be like, oh, it's just a body bob, you know. No, they're going to be like, what the heck? What we got going on here?

The body was identified as Denise Huber on July 16th using fingerprint technology. Denise had been sexually assaulted and bludgeoned the death in the head with a claw hammer and nail removed. Brutal. Yeah, I mean, that's a terrible way to go. Authorities believed John Familara targeted Denise when he saw her alone and vulnerable on the side of the highway. He hadn't been a suspect, and there was no indication Denise knew him.

Familaro was arrested in charge with murder, kidnapping, and sodom. Inside his residence, investigators found a box labeled Christmas decorations. Inside that box was the clothing Denise was wearing that night. Familaro's clothing and items suspected to be the murder weapons, A bloody crowbar, a claw hammer, and a metal nail pole. Isn't that weird that he kept all that stuff?

Well, yeah. And, you know, you hear about this quite a bit, right? In different cases, it is sometimes what trips killers up. But for some reason, they feel compelled to keep some of this stuff. Yeah. Whether it's trophies, you know, whatever. it allows them to relive the attack, the incident. But let's be honest, right.

Keeping your bloody clothing, the victim's clothing, and the murder weapons, you're not going to be giving your defense attorney a lot to work with. No, you're doing a great job helping out the prosecution. Now, we're not telling killers to get rid of stuff. I just, I just think a lot of these people, they don't think they're ever going to, caught. The compunction to kind of keep this stuff overrides probably their common sense. Right. For sure. I mean, I'm glad they do. Yeah, because it leads to a lot of them getting caught. Denise's wounds were consistent with an object like a crowbar. Her wallet, ID, makeup, and car keys

were found in another box as well as a bloodstained tarp. And I think if you're a prosecutor, this is about as much evidence as you can ever expect to have, right, in a murder. I think you're feeling really good as long as it was collected the right way. You know, I'm thinking, man, we got a slam dunk here. Familaro also had several issues of the Orange County Register featuring headlines about Denise's disappearance and a videotaped recording of an episode of Inside Edition that featured a story about Denise's case. So they got all this evidence. They had the body.

In his possession. Yeah. I mean, if you're a prosecutor, and the investigators, I think you're feeling extremely good about it all. Yeah. And if you're the defense attorney, you're like,

what am I going to do with this? This is a mountain of evidence. As investigators dug into Familaro's background, they learned he moved from Orange County to Arizona in 1992 to take care of his aging father, who had Parkinson's disease, his neighbor said he was a loner and avoided contact with them. He was a secretive person. Even his mother, Anne, who lived next door to him, didn't know much about his life. And who was active in local politics told reporters after the arrest. I didn't know what he had in there. I thought he was moving pain. I really can't

tell you much about him. I just don't know. I think he's a good boy. I don't know what to make of all of this. I don't think he's a good boy. No, I don't think he is, but, you know, what's a mom going to say? Most people are not going to tell their mom that they're a killer. Yeah. And they're going to act around their mom in a much different way than what they would do around, let's say, they're victims, if they are a killer or a serial killer. According to LA Times, Familaro was raised in a strict conservative Christian home that emphasized education. He went to college but never earned a degree. He attended Rancho Santiago College from 1975 to 1979.

In 1984, he asked for his transcripts to be sent to Cal Poly Pomona. Officials at the university had no record of him attending there. So, I mean, he went for four years to the one. college, didn't graduate, sounds like he was planning to maybe go back in 84, but never did. He made several attempts in 83 and 84 to be a police officer, sheriff's deputy, or reserve officer, but was either rejected or dropped out early in the application process. He did spend four months as a reserve sheriff's deputy for the LA County Sheriff's Department. He began the six-month training program in November 1983, but,

dropped out in March 1984 because of an injury. So it never really became what he wanted to be. No. In May 1983, he applied to be a reserve deputy in Orange County, but he dropped out after passing the written exam, physical agility test, and oral interview. A year later, two months after he dropped out of the L.A. Academy, he applied again at Orange County for a job as a deputy.

sounds like he was a quitter. Well, in 84, he applied with the Irvine PD, but he dropped out early in the process. Yeah, he had a desire, it seems, to be in law enforcement. He applied many, many times, but it seemed like somewhere in the process he would drop out, sometimes very early on, sometimes later in the process. one time after he basically passed everything. He just dropped out. So did he really want it or I don't know?

Well, I mean, it seems like he definitely was a quitter and couldn't follow through on things, but what was driving that, I have no clue. Authorities found two lookalike L.A. County Sheriff's Deputy shirts in his home in July 1994, officials at the company that supplied the training academy uniform said that it wasn't difficult for someone to buy the shirts. The issue was when they tried to put department patches on the shirts.

Familara reportedly sewed a handmade replica of a Los Angeles sheriff's department patch to the uniform. So for whatever reason, you know, he did have some desire to be in law enforcement. And then at a certain point, he was just like, you know what, I don't need to go through all this. I'm just going to fake it. I'll just buy some shirts and make my own uniform. But what would be the reason for that?

Yeah, unless you're doing something nefarious, I can think of it. It's not just to have them in your closet, right? Is he going to use them in the commission of some crimes, maybe? Is that why he wanted to be in law enforcement? Because he wanted the power and maybe he was planning to misuse that power to commit crimes. We just don't know. Maybe you wanted to wear them to the club at night. Like, hey, I just got off work, ladies.

I'm a police officer. It's hard to tell. I know one thing, though, investigators are always really concerned when they find out that a killer either tried to be a cop, was a cop, or was impersonating a cop. Because it can lead to a whole bunch of other different things. You think about Ed Kemper.

He had a fascination with, cops. It's pretty well known. Yeah. And I don't think he's the only killer who has had that. I mean, what if this guy got off the road where she was at and pretended to be a active police officer or a police officer that just got off of work? And look, I'm here to help you. Let me open my trunk up. I'm sure I can get some tools in here and then hits her and drags her or throws her in his trunk and take off. Well, that's why it's so scary. Right. You think about what we've all been taught, don't talk to strangers.

Okay, well, if you're in a situation like she was in, you might have to talk to a stranger, but you might be wary. But what if it's a police officer? Is that level of concern going to drop dramatically because you think this is a person whose sole job is to protect the community? I can trust them. They're going to help me out. Yeah, I think your guard is coming down.

Yeah, that's why it's so scary when you have someone like this who is possibly impersonating law enforcement. Famolaro lost his contractor's license in Arizona in early 1994. After customers complained about his work and refusal to fix mistakes, some of employees contended that they never got paid. His clients described him as a silver-tonged salesman who gave eloquent pitches. One neighbor who asked to remain anonymous said he believed Familaro egged his house after he hired someone else to paint. I mean, that's just like, okay, you don't want me to do it. I'm going to show you. I'm going to egg your house.

You have been egged? No, but I have done some egging. Have you? Yeah, sad to say. that is something I did in my younger days. You can do some real damage. It can. Yeah, I can.

I feel bad about some of the things I've done. I really do, but. Did you go back later in life and apologize? I did not. You didn't feel that bad. No, I maybe did win egging one time, but I remember going T-Ping quite a bit. Yeah. That was kind of a big thing when I was in school.

I know we T-Ped a lot. You did too right after COVID, because we all had that so much toilet paper. Like, what are we going to do? with all this stuff and we're like, let's go TP in. No, my wife is like, she would not have let me done that because she was very into making sure

that this family had enough TP to go around. Plus, by that time, my TPN days were long behind me. But here's the thing, right? Familaro had no criminal record except for two minor traffic violations. And that's really not surprising because he wouldn't have been allowed to,

you know, go through the training, right, to be a police officer if he had some type of serious criminal record. Now, we talked about it. He wasn't very social with his neighbors. People were curious about the large truck and freezer outside his home. When they asked what was in the freezer, he only said, meet. Okay. First of all, I got to be honest with you, I'm probably not asking a lot of people what's in their freezer. I might be asking, why do you have a freezer outside of the home? Can you not put that in a garage, in a basement, somewhere else?

I'm sure his neighbors are like, what the heck, man. Maybe that's not strange in California. That's pretty strange where I live. You have a freezer outside. Oh, yeah, that would be definitely looked down upon and also alarming. records showed the freezer was purchased on June 10th, 1991. Really? Just a week after Denise went missing.

In July, the LA Times ran a story on Elaine Canalia, the woman who called in the tip that led to the discovery of Denise's body. Elaine had known Familaro for about two months. She knew that he already had a van in a truck, so she wondered why he needed a large rental truck. He also wasn't driving it anywhere because he had boxes of paint cans stacked around it. She visited his home on July 9th to buy painting supplies and decided to write down the license played number. Elaine was there with her business partner Jack Court. As they were loading boxes into Elaine's car, Familaro seemed to be in a rush. He wouldn't let Jack Court's grandson

son used the bathroom in his house saying he had no running water. They had all had a long day at the Prescott Valley Swabme, where they had previously done business. So she assumed Familaro was tired. And we just did a case recently that was in Arizona. And I just called it Prescott. But I was told by various people that it's actually pronounced Prescott. Prescott.

I did not know that, but I'm going to try to remember it. As in like a biscuit. Kind of. Yeah. Or trisket. Well, those rhymes. So that's pretty funny. I'm a lyrical genius.

You are. Elaine assumed the truck was stolen when she took down the license plate, but she never imagined a body was inside. Something about the truck nagged at her. And I get it, right? So you think something's not right? And she did really have a pretty good sense about that. Some people wouldn't notice it at all, but she did. Yeah.

Right. Why does he need this truck? He's got other trucks. He's not using it to haul paint in because the paint's just all stacked around it. But probably the last thing in your mind is, well, he's got a body in there. That's just not where most people go to right away. She sounds like somebody you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of. she's going to find out what you did wrong.

Well, she's observant. I'll give her that. And it's a good thing. Because if not for her, you could make the argument. Maybe this case isn't solved. Oh, I definitely think that's true. On July 12th, her detective friend from Phoenix came to her warehouse to buy paint. So Elaine gave him the license plate number and suggested he'd check it out.

The detective made a call from Elaine's office and learned that the truck was stolen. The next day, he returned to Elaine's warehouse and received a call from colleagues who had found Familaro's house. Elaine recalled to the LA Times from where I was. I heard him say homicide, body, freezer. I was horrified. It makes me sick to think I was standing right next to this truck that held this body. It makes me sick too. Well, like you said, she has to also realize, but wasn't for her poking and prodding, they wouldn't have found this. Yeah, and following her gut, right? Because not everybody follows their gut.

They might have the feeling, but they don't act on. Right, right. The L.A. Times reported that Denise's murder was almost solved the month earlier. In June 1994, writer officials failed to follow up on a lead from a San Clemente woman who traced Familaro to his address in Dewey. Carolyn Copeland went to the San Clementi writer franchise with her daughter, who was returning a rental.

She struck up a conversation with the clerk about her job, which is finding missing heirs. And the clerk mentioned he had someone he wanted to find and asked if she could find John Familaro, who failed to return a rental truck in January. Copeland used computer databases, and she found Familaro, which wasn't difficult, because of his pretty unique name,

she passed the information on to the San Clemente franchise, who passed it on to rider officials at the headquarters in Miami. But they didn't follow up on the lead. That's kind of shocking because you would think they would really want that truck back. You would think unless that insurance money was pretty darn good. Oh, and Ryder is a pretty big company. Yeah. I have a feeling that a lot of rider trucks go missing. I've actually heard that on some of the YouTube body cam police videos.

Really? Yeah, that rider trucks are stolen quite often. Come in pretty handy for different things. Well, they're used to transport drugs. They're used to transport all kinds of different things. Human trafficking. Human trafficking. That could be true as well.

Denise's parents were devastated when they learned their daughter was dead. Dennis recalled, as quoted by A&E, I thought my world was ending that day that we got, confirmation and then to know what she went through. It gnaws at me all the time. And how could it not? First of all, you don't know what happened to her.

Then all of a sudden you find out what happened to her. And then you can't stop thinking about that. Yeah, you go from one type of feeling to a whole other extreme on the other side. And we talked about it, right? The particulars of what happened to Denise, they were brutal and how's a parent not going to think about what their daughter went through when you know how heinous it was. DNA evidence showed that Famolaro killed Denise inside a warehouse

unit in Laguna Hills in Orange County, California. After killing her, he stuffed her body into the freezer and took it with him when he moved to Arizona. And this is what I can't and get out of my mind is it's actually two things. Number one, how long he had this rider truck? Yeah. And then number two, how long he had her body inside this freezer? Yeah. And I don't know why he kept the body as long as he did besides the fact that we know sometimes they like to have trophies and they like to relive the experience and all that. But if he would have got rid of the body years ago, Maybe they would have never tied him to her disappearance. Yeah, that's absolutely possible.

I wonder if it was a trophy situation or whether he was just unsure of how to get rid of the body or fearful that it would be found. I don't know. Wanted to have control of it by keeping it with him in all times? Possibly. But then he also kept all of the murder weapons and the clothing. So it does kind of seem more like a trophy,

type situation. Familaro lived in and ran his painting business from the warehouse unit. A witness told police the unit had to be clean after he moved out and there was a spot covered in what they thought was red paint. The substance had been washed away by the time police searched the unit, but investigators cut into the wall near the spot and found dried blood. How many times do we talk about it, right? can you clean up everything?

Because blood has a tendency to find its way into cracks and crevices behind underneath places you can't see. You don't want it there. You better burn it. Investigators worried there were more victims because during the search of the home, they found IDs, credit cards, and clothing, some of it with red stains on it. I mean, you have to be wondering, right? if you're investigators, is this guy a serial killer?

How many victims could he possibly have? You know, somebody that does something like this, you have to kind of think he probably has done it before. Well, he's certainly capable of it. Yeah. They developed a list of nine women in Southern California and Phoenix and managed to track down almost all of those women in July 1994. Court documents released that month indicated that police

dug up to 10 feet deep in areas of his yard where cadaver dogs picked up a scent, but no bodies were found. And I always wonder if that means that possibly a body was there at some point and then it was moved later. Yeah. At a July bail hearing, a sheriff's lieutenant testified that several of Famolaro's ex-girlfriends said he threatened him. Investigators also said they talked to his brother Warren several times and described him as being anywhere from a witness to a suspect. Wow. Okay. That's a pretty wide chasm.

It is. Pretty big chasm, right? This guy, he could be a witness. He could potentially be a suspect. Yeah, he might have been involved. Two witnesses came forward with important information. One man said he helped Familaro measure the 23 foot long freezer to see if it would fit in is home in Arizona. A woman said she once found an 18 inch bone while digging at this guy's house,

but thought nothing of it. So a couple things here. Didn't realize the freezer was 23 feet long. Yeah, we talked about, hey, can you not put that in your garage? Can you not put that in a basement? I don't even know where you get a 23 foot long freezer. I have no clue. That is, that's a big ass freezer. is a huge freezer, like maybe like some industrial freezer. Well, I'm over six foot tall. Yeah. So that's, if I lay down, that's almost four of me. Yeah.

That is a really long freezer. And then I don't know how you find an 18 inch bone. And think nothing of it? Ah, that's just a bonner. I'll just toss it over here. Yeah, I can't get this 23 foot freezer out of my mind. I kind of thought it was a typo. I just don't, I don't know that I've ever seen a freezer that big.

I'm not even sure like restaurants would have room for that type of, maybe like a grocery store or something. Yeah, a grocery store. But they normally, they wouldn't have one with like a lid. Yeah. That was that long. They have whole sections, right, where they keep frozen foods. But I don't know.

That's so strange. It would be cool to have one that big. For what? How many frozen pizzas do you need? It says I'm putting pizzas in there. Well, that's what I would be afraid of. I don't think you need a big-ass freezer. Denise was buried in Herod, South Dakota,

on August 2nd, 1994, next to her grandfather. Denise never lived there, but her father, Dennis, grew up in the town. He left the state in the late 60s after meeting and marrying Ione. Dennis and Ione moved back to, to South Dakota after Denise went missing because the memories were too painful in Southern California. I can understand that.

Yeah, we talk about, you know, can people live in the same house where they know their loved one was murdered? I think it would be tough. But it would be just tough to live in the same town, right? Too many memories. Yeah. The other thing that I thought was, you know, South Dakota to Orange County, California. Yeah. That's, that's quite a difference, right? When they moved there, that might have taken some

getting used to. Definitely going to be a lifestyle change. Well, the weather's going to be a heck of a lot better. I can tell you that. The winters aren't going to be as hard. Well, one of these days, you're going to get the South Dakota. I know you will. Yeah. It's on my bucket list. Yeah. But a lot of things are on my bucket list. You got a pretty big bucket list. You know, I've only crossed so many of them off. And, you know, I probably only got 47, 50 more good years. So I got to get working on it. Get busy.

You know, how good I take care of myself. I'm assuming I'm going to live to be 100. Yeah. Well, I hope you do. What's the old saying, get busy dying or get busy living or something like that? Yeah, I'm close enough. Opening arguments in John Familaro's murder trial began on May, May 8, 1997, he was eligible for the death penalty due to special circumstance allegations

that Denise was killed during a kidnapping and during the commission or attempted commission of sodomy. In his opening statement, Deputy D.A. Christopher Evans told the jury that Famolario had a dark side in a history of sexual violence against former girlfriends. Evans described the final hours of Denise's life telling the jury that she was dragged from her car and taken to the warehouse where she was sexually assaulted and struck in the head 31 times with a nail puller. Wow. Horrific. Absolutely. And I always wonder about, you know, her family is probably in the courthouse. How difficult would it be to have to listen to all these details because you know the prosecution has to go into every minute detail. The jury's got to know

because they want to get a conviction, but man, it's got to be tough on the family. And they go in some details. I mean, 31 times with a nail poler. Do you really want to hear that? No, you don't. You don't. And I know sometimes family members walk out during that part. Familaro put three plastic bags over her head and hit her with such forceful blows that parts of the bags were embedded in her skull. More details. You don't really want to hear. No. Brutal. He kept Denise's body as a perverse trophy to remind himself of the success he had that night. Wow. I had a good night, guys. Yeah, let's just break down that statement by the prosecutor. So, you know, his thought is kept the body as a perverse trophy.

But this is what we often talk about, right? To remind the killer of what they did, maybe even help the killer relive it. But he's saying of the success, he had that night. Yeah. And that's probably how some of these killers look at it. They were successful in pulling off what they wanted to do.

It was a perfect night. Everything went the way that it should have in his mind. Denise broke down in a well-lit area and could have easily walked to a convenience store or a call box, but she was abducted before she could do that. The jury saw her high-heeled shoes that were damaged with drag marks. Two forensic scientists testified that Denise's blood was found in a warehouse in Laguna Hills where the prosecution said she was killed. The same blood type was also found on a nail puller, hammer, and other items.

recovered from Familaro's home. However, forensic scientist Mary Hong testified that DNA samples taken from Denise's body did not show any DNA besides hers. And I don't know what you make of that if you're a juror. I've always thought, you know, what does the absence of DNA mean versus the presence of DNA? Yeah. of DNA because to me there are two very different things. If a killer is careful and they wear gloves and they take certain precautions,

is it possible to get away without leaving DNA? Possibly, yeah. Yeah. I think it is. But if you find DNA, to me, that actually means a lot more than the absence. But the defense is going to make a lot out of the absence. Sure. but if they find the body in your possession,

DNA or not. Yeah. I mean, you got the murder weapons, right? You got the, her clothing. I think that in and of itself

kind of defeats any type of, well, you didn't find any of his DNA argument. Right. Deputy public defender, Leonard Gumlia, said outside court that the absence of other DNA

bolstered the defense's contention that Denise was not sexually assaulted. You can make that claim, but at end of the day, she's been murdered. Well, and so my question is, what are they trying to do? They're trying to say she wasn't sexually assaulted, but he did murder her. And so, okay, they're trying to get out of some of the charges, but they're not going to be able to get out of the big one. I don't know. I don't know what they're trying to do exactly.

Two former girlfriends testified that Familaro was devastated when they ended the relationship. Bo said he was secretive and described incidents where he handcuffed them against their will. Denise was found with her hands handcuffed behind her back. One woman who dated him in the late 80s and again in 1991, described the 1987 incident where Familaro handcuffed her in the blink of an eye. against a hotel window in New York City and left her there for three hours. She broke up with him after the trip. Can you blame her?

No, I think for most that's a deal breaker. Yeah. Most people do not like to be handcuffed against their will. Now, can it be part of a couple sex life, right? Role playing? Sure. I'm sure some people are into that, but it's consensual. I have bought you so many handcuffs because you asked me to,

to get them for you because you didn't want them to show up here. Okay, that story was about ready to go real sideways. That you're buying me handcuffs as though we're into some. No, no, no. Kind of. Let's just make that clear right now. For you because you didn't want them to be delivered here and your daughter see that you got them. I just think the implication, right, that it's done against someone's will.

All right. That's going to go a long way with the jury when we know she was found. with, you know, her hands behind her back handcuffed. Under cross-examination, the woman was shown photos of herself handcuffed and engaging in what appeared to be consensual sexual activity on that trip. She said she blocked out parts of the episode and had no recollection of what was in the photos. Now, to be fair, there could have been some consensual acts.

Yeah. And then he could have taken it further. and there could have been a part of it that was not consensual as far as the handcuffing. It's true. She testified, though, that she remained friends with him over the years, even after their second breakup. Besides the handcuffing incident, she said he was caring and generous. And I think the jury probably is going to take that into account. Not only did she remain friends with him, she actually got back together with him in 1991.

So I don't know. As a juror, you're going to have to take everything. Yeah, I think it kind of weed through that a little bit. She mentioned that her sons helped John move the freezer on a few occasions. I'm sure you had to have a handful of people move that big freezer. Another woman who dated him in 1989 described an incident where she was thrown down on a bed and handcuffed. A 10, 15 minute struggle ensued. She testified there was a look in it.

eyes. I hadn't seen before. His eyes looked like he was enjoying what he was doing and I didn't. John called her a bitch and said she brought it on herself. He said she obviously didn't understand mature sex games. Okay. Again, there are things that are consensual and there are things that are not. I mean, if you're going to have some sex games, good for you, but maybe you need to kind of have that conversation first like, hey, sometime this week, we're going to do some sex game thing where I'm going to handcuff you and toss you down on the bed. Are you good with that? Well, there's got to be ground rules, right? You just can't do something and then expect someone to be okay with it. You know, maybe some prior advance notice, some agreements, safe word. There's all kinds of things involved

here. What was your safe word? Artichote. Artichote. Always artichote. As long as she knows. She broke up with him after this incident, but got back together with him three months later. She saw John about a week after Denise's murder. When she dropped off a birthday present at the warehouse where he was living, he appeared the same as usual. He really wasn't shaken about what he did.

If anything, maybe, because we know he had to, we think he enjoyed it. Well, maybe he was satiated. I don't know that some of these killers, it really changes their demeanor all that much? Yeah. I don't know that a lot of them are going to act like they're freaking out or even if they are, they're probably not going to let that on to people they know.

But here's the thing, Gibbs. The defense didn't contest that Familaro killed Denise, but they did contend that he didn't kidnap or assault her, as alleged in these special circumstances. Defense attorney Leonard Gumlius said outside court, as quoted by the LA Times. There was no captivity, no longevity. She died within and out.

When presenting their case, the prosecution didn't address how long Denise may have survived after encountering and counting Familara. And it's a big deal, right? The defense is conceding to the fact that he killed Denise. What they're trying to do is trying to get him out of the special circumstances. that I think would allow the prosecution to secure the death pill.

Yeah. And that's the kidnapping and the homicide during the assault. Both the prosecution and the defense agreed to tell the jury that the nieces' blood alcohol content was between 0.08 and 0.11 when she pulled over to the side of the highway, the judge instructed the jury to accept these facts. This was done to avoid lengthy questioning that might have taken half a day of testimony. And that happens sometimes, right? It might not be something that one side wants in, but they know it's going to get in.

So both sides agree, hey, we're going to submit these as facts. And, you know, what does it mean? Technically, she was probably above the legal limit. a little bit. Denise's friend Robert Calvert testified earlier at trial that he and Denise had four to five shots of vodka each and some beers at the concert and then later at a restaurant. He testified that they were not intoxicated. Yeah, well, maybe they didn't feel intoxicated, you know, but based on her blood level, it seemed like she might have been.

Oh, I think legally she shouldn't have been dry. Yeah. Now, if, if she's around 0.08, I mean, she's right on the line. If that's what it was in California at the time, I don't know what it was. Yeah. That's what it is most places nowadays, right?

0.08. Defense attorney Leonard Gumlia suggested that the niece may have drunk enough to not want to call authorities for help when her tire blew out and might take a little more risk than you might otherwise do in that situation. And I understand what he has to try to do, but he really is blaming. her for this guy killing her, which I find offensive. Same here. Charles Sims,

associate director of pathology at Century City Hospital in L.A., testified for the defense that evidence from Denise's body could not definitely be called sperm during cross-examination. He admitted he hadn't viewed such forensic samples in the last two decades prior to this case and he was not testifying in his area of expertise. Then why say anything at all? I'm assuming because they're paying him too. But that's really shitty of them, to be honest.

Yeah, but, you know, sometimes so-called experts do things for money. I get that. I think if you're the jury, though, you would take this into account. The defense also showed the jury a pair of heels similar to Denise's and argued that they could have been damaged while she was hiking up and down the freeway embankment looking for help. And what are they trying to do, Gibbs? They're trying to say, no, these aren't drag marks as the prosecution contends. During closing arguments, Deputy Public Defender Denise Gregg presented a scenario of what

the defense believed happened the night Denise died. They argued that Familaro didn't kidnap or sexually assault her. and struck her with a hammer in a spontaneous attack because Denise was running from him or resisting a sexual overture. When she went unconscious, he panicked. And at some point decided to kill her. According to Greg, Denise encountered Familaro on the side of the road. In a friendly enough manner, she was stranded and went willingly with him.

Greg suggested Denise's judgment may have been impaired by alcohol and her misplaced trust led to her violent death. Again, putting it back on her. And again, I understand that the defense has to say some things here. They have to try something. I don't like the victim blaming. But I also, as a juror, I'm having a hard time buying the fact that she went willingly with him. to this warehouse as though that was going to

somehow help her out with her car trouble and that he spontaneously decided to kill her. Yeah, I mean, I think if they said she got in the car with him because he was going to take her down the road somewhere and drop her off. But why would she ever agree

to go to a warehouse? But see, they can't say that because then that would be kidnapping. Exactly. Right? If he says he's going to take her one place but takes her to his warehouse against her will that by definition is kidnapping so they can't say that deputy d a christopher evans told the jury that denise was abducted and perhaps dragged as evidenced by her heels and taken to the warehouse against her will where she was raped and murdered

evan showed the jury photos of denise's body and said this is a victim who not only had her head caved in, but was blindfolded, probably gagged, handcuffed, had her clothing removed, and had bags placed over her head in a pretty calculated manner. The defense maintained that Denise was dead before her clothing was removed and she was gagged and blindfolded. Sick guy. Well, but why would you need to gag and blindfold someone if they're already dead? Maybe it's part of his fantasy. It doesn't make sense. I'm not buying it. Greg emphasized that the killing was not premeditated and the absence of injuries other than the head injuries indicated that there was not a kidnapping or a struggle. And I don't think that's necessarily true either. I don't think so either.

Leonard Gumlia also told the jury that there was no conclusive proof that samples collected from Denise's body contained sperm. These samples also did not contain familial DNA. On May 22nd, 1997, John Familara was convicted of first-degree murder under the special circumstances that Denise was killed during a kidnapping and during the commission or attempted commission of sodomy. During the penalty phase, the defense argued that he suffered from childhood trauma and mental health issues. Defense attorney Gumlia asked the jury to keep an open mind when hearing about Familaro who truly wants to do good with his life, but is too psychologically

scarred to do so. He said brain scans showed that Familaro had extra activity in his temporal lobe associated with basic instincts of sex and violence, which he couldn't control and did not understand. An extremism element in his Catholic upbringing also shaped him and his views. According to the defense, he suffered from hereditary OCD, which might explain why he kept Denise's body stored inside a freezer. They rejected the prosecution's notion that Denise's body was a trophy. They said he was separated from the body for over a year when he moved from Orange County to Arizona in 1992. And the freezer remained in a storage facility.

he brought it over in the rider truck in early 1994. The defense noted that his psychological descent began in the early 80s when his pregnant girlfriend broke up with him and put the baby up for adoption despite his objections. They said he never recovered from that in a certain way. In the weeks leading up to Denise's murder, another woman broke up with him and he contacted a suicide hotline. They said he was badly scarred by rejection. and did not know if he could go on.

His mother testified about her struggles of raising John and his siblings. She said, as quoted by the L.A. Times, I'm up here brokenhearted in every way. And I know that pornography is the reason. She said that John, her youngest son, just didn't seem right growing up. He was nervous and sullen. But she didn't seek professional help for him. Anne said, I'm sorry to say, I didn't think, period.

I was just so busy just trying to raise three kids. She discussed raising the children with her husband in Santa Ana, where she was active in politics and served on the city council. She often gave speeches to hundreds of people on religion and politics and organized protests against abortion and an adult theater in the city. She said she tried to teach her kids to be good and do the right thing. Defense attorney Denise Gregg asked Anne about how she raised the children

and suggested through questioning that Anne didn't do laundry often or have the kids bathe regularly. And when they did bathe, she scrubbed their genitals especially hard and washed them with hot water. Now, Anne denied doing this, but did admit telling her sons that masturbation would make them go crazy. What did you say about masturbation? Nothing. You and I have never talked about masturbation, and why would we?

I know you're trying to elicit some response from me, but why in the world would we ever have a conversation about that? I'm just checking with you. This is so strange. It's very strange. Because you know, the defense attorney had to get that from John. Yeah. Right? They're trying to get her to admit it on the stand.

She won't admit it. I think they are trying to put some of this back. on her, and then John's brother, Warren, testified, and during his testimony, John asked to leave the courtroom. Warren, who was convicted of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old boy and a 16-year-old girl in 1980, testified that his mother pushed his grandmother down the stairs during an argument. The judge did not allow the jury to hear their sister Marion's testimony that the same month as the murder, Familaro told her that Warren molested him as a child. The prosecution brought up Warren's admissions that he tried to fondle his younger sister a few times

and his conviction for sexual assault. The prosecutor asked Warren if he molested his younger brother, which he denied. He did testify gives that their mother bathed them until they were 10 and would scrub their genitals. It's a long time to bathe your kids. it's a lot of genital scrubbing. It is a lot of genital scrubbing. I don't know. I do feel like there was something going on in this family.

There's too much smoke, not for there to be some fire. Denise's parents were also witnesses during the penalty phase. During her testimony, Ione Huber held up a large photo of Denise for the jury as a contrast to the autopsy photos that they had to view during the trial. She said, I want to show you a picture. of the real Denise. This is my daughter with her smile and her sense of humor. She brought so much joy to our lives. When she died, so many of my dreams for her died, she had dreams of her own too. Denise dreamed of getting married, having a career, and having a family. Dennis recalled how during the three years Denise was missing. They didn't know whether to pack up her things or sell her car.

They never celebrated Christmas. The parents' testimony made sense. several jurors and spectators in the courtroom cry, including one of the detectives who worked a case, even Familaro's attorney, said he was fighting back tears. On June 18, 1997, the jury recommended the death penalty. On September 5th of that year, a judge formally sentenced Familaro to death. Judge John Ryan spoke about the terror Denise must have felt in her final moments. he noted the extraordinary impact the murder had on her parents who started the nationwide search for their daughter. The judge denied a defense motion for a retrial said he believed the jury was correct in convicting Familara and that the evidence of his guilt was overwhelming.

I would agree. Yeah, yeah. I mean, based on everything we went through, I just don't see how the jury got it wrong. but the judge discussed the special circumstance allegations saying Familara must have had forcible sex in mind when he took Denise to the warehouse. He said he did believe John suffered during his upbringing and that his mother's control over the children was not normal or healthy. In no way was it normal.

It didn't seem like if some of that stuff was true, it definitely was not normal. In 2011, the California Supreme Court upheld his death sentence. However, due to the state's moratorium on executions, he's been on death row for many years. Denise's parents have accepted that he will likely die of old age in prison. They're glad he's in prison, though, where he cannot harm anyone else. Dennis and Ione are now in their late 80s and are still deeply affected by the loss of their daughter. Dennis told A&E in 2006,

there are things that we'll never see. And that is grandchildren from her. I will never have the opportunity to walk my daughter down the aisle. And that hurts every time I'm at a wedding. But that's not for me, I guess. And that's heartbreaking for me personally. I just walked my daughter down the aisle a few months ago.

It was one of the highlights of my life. Absolutely. And I know you did as well. So that hurts me. Sure. You know, to know that this guy didn't get to do that will never have grandchildren. Tough. He said that John Familaro took part of my life for it.

Denise was so special. And we were so close that that part is gone. And he ripped her away from him. So Gibbs, as we wrap up this case, I mean, this guy was monstrous and what he did to Denise. And, you know, at the end of it, I just think that, you know, he found as he was driving, Denise stranded. He thought, well, she's vulnerable. Easy target. He probably offered her a ride.

Somehow he got her back to his warehouse. Yeah. Whether he incapacitated her before that, right, before the drive, whatever it was. I just don't buy any of the defense arguments that, you know, she went there willingly. He didn't, you know, kidnap her. I just don't buy it. I think he meant to kidnap her. He meant to sexually assault her.

And he meant to kill her. Yeah. He did all that on purpose for the sole outcome of he wanted to do exactly that. Raper and then kill her. Now, I also think he might have had a jacked-up childhood. Oh, for sure he did. Does it give him a reason to do what he did? No, no, I agree with that.

But based on, you know, some of the things he did, some of the things his brother did, some of the things that came out during the penalty phase, you know, having your mother wash your genitals up until you're 10 years old. Yeah. There's something wrong with that. Yeah, for sure there is. And I also feel like she was not his only victim. I feel like this guy probably dabbled in this a little bit more than just her.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. But that's it for our episode on Denise Schumer. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out? Sir it. Hello, Mike and Gibby. My name is Deanna.

And I have been meeting to call and leave a message for six years. I started listening to you during COVID. I am a respiratory therapist and I was on the front line. And I know that some people might think it's very strange and morbid to unwind with true crimes. But honestly, it was probably the only thing that kept me sane was just totally forget it. It was the most horrific time of my life. And I have been meeting for six years to call and leave a message thanking you for being there and keeping me sane. I appreciate everything you do, and I'm going to make a big old donation, and I'm a Gie fan, and I'm a Mike fan.

You guys really go good together, and that's all. Thank you. Well, thank you so much, Deanna. We really appreciate it, and we talked about her PayPal donation in the beginning. Yeah, we're a big fan of hers. Yeah, we're a big fan. Thanks for all you do. Absolutely.

All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.