True Crime All The Time - Dennis Nilsen Part 1

Episode Date: August 7, 2023

Dennis Nilsen was a Scottish serial killer known by the nicknames “The Muswell Hill Murderer” and “The Kindly Killer.” He murdered 15 or 16 victims from 1978 to 1983 and committed acts of necrophilia and dismemberment. He primarily targeted young men he met at bars in London. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the infamous serial killer Dennis Nilsen. He developed a fascination with dead bodies, and many people think that ties back to things he experienced as a young child. But, most of the people who knew him growing up described him as a fine young boy. So what happened to drive Dennis Nilsen to kill and then to want to keep his victims with him for as long as possible?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 34 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, How are you? Good, man. About you. I'm doing very well. Yeah.

I'm excited about our episode that we have on tap for everybody. But before we get into that, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. Okay. We had Lori Leith. What's going on, Lori? Emily Wright. Emily. Kelly Mason.

Well, thank you, Mason. Princess Peanut, Munchkin. kitty soft paws of the barrel. Okay. Well, thank you, peanut munchkin. Which I do think takes the title for the longest Patreon name we've ever had. Yeah. Claudine George. What's going on, Claudine? Becky Connor. Hey, Connor. Anatia Huitt. I appreciate that. Antasia. Emily. What's going on, Emily? Kelly Summerhaze jumped out at our highest level. Little summer haze. Alyssa jumped out to our highest level. That's awesome. Thanks, Alyssa. And last but not least, Kim Thielen. Hey, thanks, Kim Thiel. Hey, thanks, Kim. Thanks, Kim.

Yeah, so we appreciate the new Patreon support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week we selected Jen Waterman. Thank you, Jen. Yeah, appreciate the long-term patron support. We also had some great PayPal donations from Christine Kenny. Thanks, Kenny. And Danny Plower. Plower in the house.

Yeah. Yeah. I could say that a couple different ways, but I'm going with that. Okay. And we'll see. Hey, we've got a lot out right now at the time this episode, dropped. We had one on Unsolved. We did. Where we're discussing the disappearance of Phoenix Coldon. Very good case. Can be sure you check that one out? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then Saturday

night, we dropped a brand new Patreon episode on the unresolved murder of David Carter. And this is an interesting episode as well. It is. You know, I say unresolved because 99.9% of the people believe it was a certain person who killed and dismembered David Carter, they just can't figure out where she is. Also has me thinking as when I drive up north from now on, I'll have to keep my eyes open for things on side of the road. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There was some,

some of it took place in northern Ohio. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I am ready. We're talking about Dennis Nilsson. And this is someone that a lot of people have wanted us to cover. We've gotten many, many requests for it. So this is part one. This is going be a two-parter. Dennis Nilsson was a Scottish serial killer, known by the nicknames, the

Muswell Hill murderer and the kindly killer. Hopefully I'm saying that first one, right? He murdered at least 15, maybe more, from 1978 to 1983 and committed acts of necrophilia and dismembering. He primarily targeted young men. He met at bars in London. So real sicko. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and he is a fairly well-known serial killer. He's up there on the list of not only count, but also infamy, I would say, which is why we have gotten so many requests to cover him in part one of the Dennis Nilsson episodes. We'll cover his early life. how he developed a fascination with dead bodies and his first murder victims. Dennis Andrew Nilsson was born on November 23rd, 1945 in Fraserburg, Scotland.

And you and I were just talking about Scotland. Was it last week? Had a lot of ties to Scotland on both episodes? We did. Talked about the Scottish. Okay. The we did was rough. When you say Scottish, it sounds great.

but it just like when you say British not bad every other word not good it doesn't kind of line up I remember because you were talking about who drove the ship on Star Trek or something I think you meant Scotty who was in charge of beaming everybody back up aboard the ship that's right well we were talking about it because uh well one you are Scottish Scottish Scottish and then too, I think we brought in maybe the game of golf. Yeah, you did talk about golf. Dennis' parents were Elizabeth White, aka Betty, and Olov Magnus Mokshan, who changed his last name to Nilsson.

Olaf was a Norwegian soldier. He met Betty in 1940 when he was stationed in Scotland. And I think that happened a lot. Oh, I'm sure it did. When you think about, you know, the 1940s, World War II, how many American GIs brought back wives from England, France, all over. Different places. I think you can probably say World War I and World War II. A lot of that happened.

And I think it happened some in Vietnam as well. Yeah. Dennis's parents reportedly had an unhappy marriage, mostly because Olaf didn't spend much time with his family. Dennis was the second of three children. His siblings were named Olaf Jr. and Sylvia. He's a middle child like myself. Yes, which, you know, I don't know how that bodes for you, but it can be difficult to be a middle child, a lot of responsibilities. Yeah, apparently. But I want to go back to his dad, kind of saying, you know, he didn't spend much time with the family. I think there were a lot of guys like that. I think there were a lot more back in the day.

Oh, I agree with you. Who didn't want to spend time with the kids. Also, they weren't as a factionate. Didn't know how to show a faction, didn't know how to show love, maybe because they weren't shown it themselves. And some of these guys came from war times. Yeah. So that had some type of impact on their, yeah, for sure.

I think so too. But I've watched a lot of histories, documentaries, a lot of war documentaries. I've seen a lot of soldiers say. Yeah. Talk about how, you know, obviously war changed them. They weren't the same people when they got back. They were happy to be alive, but they weren't the same people. They were changed.

And probably never would be. No. Betty told the Daily Mirror in 1983 that Dennis was a delightful baby. Most babies are pretty delightful. Yeah, I do like babies. Oloff and Betty divorced in 1948. The Daily Mirror quoted Betty is saying, I brought up three children without the help of a husband.

He was rarely there and when he was, there was only trouble. Okay. Not really saying anything good. No. About Olaf. Betty and the children lived with her parents. It was said that Dennis had a fairly normal childhood. And he had positive memories of going on family picnics and

walks through the countryside. Dennis described his grandparents as cold and dower, according to the Herald Scotland. But he had a close bond with his grandfather, Andrew White. He considered his grandfather a great hero and protector. The old granddad coming through. Yeah. But cold and dower. Okay. I don't know what you make of that. But even so, you know, he developed this really close bond with his grandfather. Andrew worked as a fisherman. And it was said that Dennis eagerly awaited his return whenever he was away from home. Yeah, probably couldn't wait for his grandfather to come home so they can sit around and have some haggis.

Haggis. Yeah. Have you ever had haggis? That is something I would not have. But you know what it is. I do. Okay. Yeah.

That's not something that I would ever try. But it seems as though their relationship was not as ideal. as some sources described, according to Nilsen's self-recorded tapes, which were presented in the 2021 Netflix documentary memories of a murderer, the Nilsen tapes, he was sexually abused by his grandfather. That's rough. It's very rough. Yeah.

And it seems to me to be very much at odds with this notion that he had of his grandfather as a great hero and protector. Yeah, but sometimes people say or act one way because they're afraid of the truth. Well, that could be. Dennis was also very, very young because his grandfather, Andrew Wye, died on October 31st, 1951, weeks before Dennis turned six. So all of this interaction with his grandfather happened when he was five or younger. Yeah.

But you also have to take. the source of information, right? That's true because it is coming from Dennis. We always say that, right? Take it with a grain of salt. Doesn't mean it's not true, but you have to, I guess, measure it a little bit more because this guy's a serial killer. Yeah.

Apparently, Andrew had a heart attack while he was away fishing. Dennis's mother took him to view the body at the funeral, but she told him that his grandfather was sleeping. Dennis described seeing his grandfather's body as his most vivid childhood memory. And he would later say that he believed that his mother's failure to explain death to him was a catalyst for his future crimes. He was quoted in the book, killing for company, saying, my trouble started there.

It blighted my personality permanently. That's an interesting statement. It is. Again, is he telling the truth? is he not telling the truth? You know, people have to figure that out on their own. And,

you know, parents, guardians, grandparents, they have to make these types of decisions. Sure. To me, five years old is,

is young to see a dead body. And then how you choose to explain it. Not that the person is deceased, but that they're sleeping. Right. Well, if they're sleeping, they're going to wake up.

But he's not going to wake up. Dennis is never going to see him again. So, you know, does that make sense? You know, not really. Sometimes I think you're better off just saying the truth. Well, if you've made the decision that you're going to allow him to be at the funeral, which is I think a decision that a lot of parents would say, no, that's too young. Some might say they need that for closure. I don't know. That's a personal decision. I do think maybe you got to explain death and you have to kind of explain it. But can a five-year-old grasp that concept fully? I don't know. Yeah, I think it'd be tough. Dennis had a second traumatic experience when he was just eight years old in 1954. He almost drowned

when he was swept out to sea. He was saved by an older boy who showed sexual interest. in him. The boy who rescued him removed his clothing and masturbated onto him. This is all according to Dennis. Well, that's strange, I think. You know, I mean, you almost died. The person saves you and the first thing they're going to do when they get you back to shore is to masturbate on you. It's just a weird claim. No, it's definitely strange, but you're almost saying it as though there is a good time for, you know, for him to masturbate. No good time on this, on this young kid. And, And obviously there isn't, but again, I hate to keep harping on it, but you have to kind of figure out whether Dennis is telling the truth or not. But if he is, did this kind of start, you know, his fascination or his, what's the word I'm looking for, Gibbs?

Interest. Yeah. Interest in younger boys that would develop, you know, throughout his life and obviously later on. But I'm with you. It's a strange interaction. Hey, it's great that you saved me. But, you know, what happened after that, not good. No.

I didn't think it was weird that one time I went to the beach and I got bit by sand crab and random people were coming up peeing on me. Yeah, I just, I don't know. You just have that face or there's something about you because it's not as though they thought you were stung by a jellyfish. You told them right up front that it wasn't a jellyfish, but still, they just felt like that was the right thing to do. Dennis's mother eventually remarried and had four more children with her husband, Adam Scott. The family moved to stricken Scotland. And I'm sure I'm mispronouncing

that. It was said that Dennis became quiet and withdrawn after his grandfather's death, but that he really didn't have any behavioral problems as a boy. And that's a little different, right, from a lot of the serial killers that we talk about. Now, A lot of them have traumatic experiences, sexual abuse, physical abuse, things like that. But most of them kind of display a pattern from some point, normally pretty early on, of different types of behavioral problems, whether it's just getting in trouble or, you know, bucking authority or whatever it is. But that doesn't seem true with Dennis.

In March 1999, Betty Scott spoke to the Guardian about Dennis's childhood. She described him as a kind and caring child. She gave one example where Dennis took injured birds home with him. So unlike some, that would probably injure the birds. He's actually trying to save the injured birds. That's what it sounded like to me. Sounds like he has some form of compassion inside him. She also emphasized that nothing she did caused Dennis to become a serial killer.

Betty said in an interview with The Daily Mirror that Dennis was just like his siblings and didn't stand out in any way. Now, you could make the argument that this is a woman whose son turned out to be a really heinous individual. Right. And she's trying to really put it out there that, hey, I didn't do anything to cause him to be like this. No, she could also be correct.

She could be. Or like you said, she could try to divert that attention away from her. I didn't have anything to do with how he turned out. I will say she's not the only one, though. Dennis's teacher, Melita Lee described him as likable, very willing and of above average intelligence, according to the press and journal. Dennis won awards for drawing and painting while he was in school. Everyone thought he would be an artist when he grew up, but he told he told, he

told his mom he wanted to join the army. So it sounds like he was very artistic as well. Yeah. Dennis participated in his village's army cadet force, a voluntary uniformed youth organization. According to the Herald Scotland, Dennis realized he was gay around the time he started puberty. He felt ashamed and confused and hid his sexuality from his family and friends.

The Guardian reported that Dennis once fought with his older brother, because he accused him of being gay. I think back then, that was probably a fairly common scenario. Yeah, and I think it persisted well after that. You know, it wasn't easy for people to come out. It wasn't easy to be openly gay. Right. Throughout a lot of different points in history, it is much easier today.

Now, I say that, not being a gay man, but knowing that, attitudes have changed a lot over the years. Now, not everyone's attitude, but the majority of people. According to author and forensic psychologist professor Catherine Ramsland's piece for crime library, Dennis Nilsson, Dennis once helped with a search for a missing man. He and a friend found the man's body on the banks of a river. It reminded him of seeing his grandfather. So, again, this seems like it loomed large. throughout his life. In 1961, Dennis enlisted in the Army.

He trained as a cook and served 11 years in the military. That's quite a stint. It really is. He was posted in Germany, Norway, Yemen, Cyprus, and Scotland. He worked as a butcher in the Army Catering Corps, which allowed him to learn skills that he would later use to dismember his victims. I was just recalling when we were researching this. that's exactly how he was able to get those skills well and you hate to say it but you think of

medical professionals but even outside of that think of someone like a butcher who knows how to you know cut up animal sure they know what tools to use how to do it what places are best to do it would that go a long way or or provide some insight in dismembering a human body I would say, yeah, I probably would. I don't know how it could hurt. At one point, Dennis was a cook for the Queen's Royal Guard. I think I cooked for the Royal Walk one time. Did you?

I've eaten at the Royal Walk. Dennis said he enjoyed teamwork, the toleration of the Army, and regimental pride. According to the press and journal, while Dennis was in the Army, he began drinking heavily to deal with feelings of loneliness. And he also began to have unusual sexual fantasies. When Dennis had his own private room, he would lay down in front of a mirror, but made sure his head was not in the reflection. He pretended to be unconscious and felt like he was looking at his other body,

which according to him, aroused him. Okay, I can see this venture into some strange territory. Oh, yeah, I think it is. Now, I don't know what he means by his other body. but unconscious other body. Is it going to go back to him being five years old? And I'm not saying he was sexually aroused at the age of five years old, but to this experience that he had at five years old of seeing his grandfather lying there.

It seems like it's all kind of gravitating back towards that. During his final months in the military, Dennis met a man named Terry Finch. and apparently he was in love with Terry, but Terry was not attracted to men. According to Catherine Ramsland, Dennis did convince Terry to pretend to be dead and recorded some videos of him. When they ended their friendship, Dennis destroyed the films and gave Terry the recorder. It's a strange request. Yeah. But we talk about that all the time.

We do. First of all, how do you bring it up? second of all, if you're the other person in the conversation, how do you say, yeah, sure, I'll do that, no problem. You'll me lay down here and act like I'm dead. So you can record me? That's not weird. I'm going to have a lot of questions.

Yeah. And ultimately, I don't see myself doing it, but I would definitely have a lot of questions. Dennis left the army in 1972 and he moved to London. He lost regular contact with his family after this. He began working for Metropolitan Police and developed a fascination with the morgue and viewing autopsied bodies. I mean, it is some, it is a different fascination, but I think there's some people that have that fascination because they're so curious on what makes us up, makes us tick.

Yeah. Yeah, I get that. I understand that. But I think we already know that his is going in a different direction. this is not so much educational or something like that. There is a sexual component. Yeah, it's going to turn to that perverted stage. Yes.

Dennis resigned from the police force after eight months. So he did 11 years in the army, but could only do eight months on the police force. In 1974, he worked as a security guard, but then got a job as a civil servant at a job center where he worked as a recruitment interviewer, Dennis said in his tapes that he resigned as a police officer due to homophobia in the department. I could see how that would be a true statement.

Especially back then. Yeah, I mean, eight months in, if they found out in the 1970s that Dennis was gay, would he face backlash? And I would think that the answer is yes back then. Dennis first got in trouble with the police. in 1973. While working at the job center, he met a young man named David Painter. He and David later met outside of work, and they went to Dennis's apartment where David fell asleep in his bed. He woke up naked and found Dennis taking pictures of him. David was extremely upset and actually injured himself by jumping out of the third floor window. Now, he survived the fall, but ended up

getting a hundred stitches. Yeah, that's someone trying to get away. Well, you jump out of the third floor window. You go to somebody's apartment who you think, let's say, is a friend, maybe you've had a few pops. You're drunk. You lay down. You take a nap. You wake up buck naked. Yeah. And this person who you thought was a friend or, you know, an acquaintance is snapping pictures of you. Not going to be happy. I'm not going to be happy. I'm not going to jump out of a third store window, but I'm not going to be happy. And, you know, and we're going to have words and maybe even more. Dennis was questioned but released.

David's family didn't want him to publicly testify. So Dennis was not charged. And there again, I think you have to look at the times. Does David, does his family want it to come out that he was naked in this man's bed and this man was taking pictures of him? Yeah, of course not.

So that's why he chose not to testify. Yeah, I don't know that for a fact. I didn't see it, but I am making that assumption. Dennis continued having strange sexual fantasies. He continued lying in front of the mirror and looking at himself, but he started to use makeup and fake blood to make himself look like a murder victim. He even said he had fantasies of someone picking up his body and burying it. So I'm getting a little bit of for some reason, um, silence of a lamb's vibe here. Yeah.

Where the guy's in front of the mirror. Isn't that horses song or whatever? And he's tucked back and he's wearing that like kimono or something. You ever done that? What? The tuck back or the wearing of a kimono? Either one. No, neither.

Neither of those. But I think what you see here is an escalation. So we start with the lying in front of the mirror looking at himself. now he's still doing that, but he's adding the fake blood to make it look as though he's a murder victim. Yeah, for sure, his fantasies are going up and up in his mind and how he wants to see things. They're escalating. Yeah, I would say so. In November 1975, Dennis began living with a man named David Galachan in an apartment at 195 Melrose Avenue.

In Cricklewood, North London, BBC described this apartment as a semi-detached house. Now, Gala Chan denied that he and Dennis had a romantic relationship, but they did live together for two years until Dennis kicked Gala Chan out. After Gala Chan moved out, Dennis went into a downward spiral. According to Biography.com, he spent his evenings alone and he drank heavily. And then 18 months later, he, killed for the first time. Dennis targeted young gay men and young homeless men. He normally met his victims in bars or on public transportation. He lured them to his home by offering alcohol or a place

to sleep for the night. Dennis also selected victims who were less likely to be reported missing. And that's a trend that we have seen in many, many episodes. Yeah, it kind of reminds me a little bit of her bow maister yeah yeah and a little bit of Jeffrey Dahmer you know but that doesn't just happen with men targeting other men right men targeting women often target women who they don't believe are going to be likely to to be reported missing i think it's why there's so much crime against sex workers and has been throughout, you know, history. On December 30th, 1978, Dennis Nilsson murdered 14-year-old Stephen Dean Holmes. Now, it's important to note that Stephen wasn't identified until 2006.

So sources before that time don't use his name because they didn't know what his name was. That was a long time before he was identified. Yeah, it took a long time. Dennis met Stephen at a pub. on December 29th and invited him to the apartment for beer. Stephen was on his way home from a concert. They drank together and Stephen spent the night with Dennis. But Dennis panicked when he woke up and realized that Stephen would be leaving soon.

So he strangled Stephen with a tie. That sounds so similar to Dahmer. Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely some Dahmer vibes here, almost as if they never want these people to leave. Right. They want them to stay with them. And if they can't get them to stay, they'll make them stay even if they're no longer alive. Yeah. You think that is because at some level in their mind, because people have left them in their earlier years, that that has a play into this? I think abandonment plays into it. I think there's all kinds of different factors that play into it.

Dennis wrote about this murder, as quoted by Catherine Ramsland's piece for crime library, I raised myself and slipped it on under his neck. I quickly straddled him and pulled tight for all I was worth. His body came alive immediately. He struggled off the bed onto the floor. Stephen tried to fight back, but Dennis was too strong. He lost consciousness but wasn't dead. Dennis filled a plastic bucket with water and,

drowned him. Dennis recalled that after a few minutes, the bubbles stopped coming. I lifted him up and sat him on the armchair. The water was dripping from his short brown curly hair. So very, very descriptive. And when you think about trying to strangle someone, we've talked about it before. It's not as easy as they make it look on TV or in movies. It takes longer. It takes more force and if somebody wakes up and they're being strangled with a tie, they're going to fight like hell. Right. And it sounds like that's what happened here. Now, Dennis was stronger. He was able to get the upper hand. But even so, he didn't kill this man by strangling him. He actually got a bucket of water

and put his head in there until he drowned. Yeah. Apparently Dennis was in shock at what he had done, but he made a cup of coffee and he smoked while he thought of what to do next and i just wonder you know how many killers if this truly was his first time as he claims how many killers were in this same kind of boat for the lack of a better term they've probably fantasized about it for a long time sure but now they finally committed the act what do they do next because i don't know how much fantasy there is besides the act. I don't know how many people fantasize about the cleanup or the getting rid of the body and all that.

So it sounds like, okay, maybe a lot of that comes on the fly after the fact. Yeah, I think there's some people that do have some fantasies about what to do after the fact. Oh, I'm sure there are some, yeah. But no, I'm thinking, you know, this is his first kill. He's trying to figure out. And he obviously must have the leisure of being able to wait and not have them to hurry up out of the home. No, because he's at his, he's at his place. Yeah.

So he's got, I think sometimes some of these killers don't have that leisure, you know, and they have to hurry up and make a decision. We're here. He's got some time. He's having some coffee, smoking a cigarette. So what he decided to do was to wash the body and put it in his bed. Dennis said that he could. even remember the man's name and he had no form of idea on him. Dennis thought that the dead body was

beautiful. He didn't know why he killed his victim, but it was mostly because he didn't want him to leave. He put him back in his bed and looked at him and thought the dead body was beautiful. Yeah, not the body's beautiful. The dead body. Dennis said about the first murder, according to the guardian, I remember thinking he would probably be going soon. Another ship passing in the night.

In the morning, he was lying on the bed fully closed. I was on the other bed. He was dead. I came to the conclusion that I had killed him. It's like, it seems like reality set in finally for him then, right? Because you know you killed him.

The next morning when he woke up, it was like, oh yeah. Yeah, I did that. did that. Dennis wrote, it was the beginning of the end of my life, as I had known it, I had started down the avenue of death and possession of a new kind of flatmate. Well, that's for sure. Definitely a new definition. A new kind? Yeah, absolutely. Later in the day,

Dennis purchased an electric knife and a large pot, but he couldn't bring himself to dismember Stevens remains. Why? Because he thought the dead body was beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. beautiful. Dennis decided to dress the body. He attempted to commit an act of necrophilia, but was unsuccessful. He slept next to the body that night. The next day, he put the body under his apartment floorboards. Well, what else would you do with it? Right. Of course, put it underneath the floorboards. I'm, I'm trying to get over the fact that he slept with this body next to him that night. A week later, Dennis removed the body and washed the body. And washed it. I'm, I'm, I'm trying to get over the fact that he slept. I'm, I'm it again, then committed another act of necrophilia.

So a few items here, right? It's been a week. Yeah, that was my thought. I'm thinking this body is probably pretty rancid. Starting to decompose. Yeah. Now, the fact that he's already had sex with a dead body. Attempted.

Attempted sex. Now he's tried again. And it sounded like he was successful. It said committed another act of. of necrophilia. Yeah. But then he kept the body under his floorboards for seven and a half months, which I don't even know how you do that.

I don't know how that odor doesn't chase you away. How could you even stay in the house at that point? He eventually burned the remains in a bonfire. So according to him, this is his first murder, his first foray into this. And man, it's a doozy. Yeah. then in October 1979, a 19 year old student named Andrew Ho went home with Dennis. Andrew wanted to try bondage.

So Dennis put a tie around his neck and he reportedly told this Andrew Ho that he was playing a dangerous game. According to Catherine Ramsla. Now, I'm not into the whole bondage, BDSM, whatever you call it thing. Yeah. Some people are. Hey. And you know what I've said it before. Whatever two consenting adults want to do in the privacy of their own space, that's fine with me.

I don't care. 50 shades, baby. Yeah. A hundred shades for you from what I understand. But you think about doing that with, you know, your spouse, your partner, who you've known a long time or for some period of time. Now think about going home with a stranger. and, you know, getting into some of that stuff, you were putting yourself in a very compromising position. You are.

You really got to trust that individual. But how can you if you don't know them? If you just bet them in a bar. Yeah, just to meet them at a bar and all of a sudden start playing those type of games, I don't know. In a sense, you're putting your life in their hands. You are. In certain situations. Andrew escaped and reported the attack.

to police. But he was nervous and decided not to press charges. Ho was an immigrant and was under the lawful age of consent for LGBTQ plus people. And it was said that he could have faced two years in jail. Dennis was questioned, but officers didn't take further action. That's another thing. It probably was hard to report those type of crimes because you had to worry about what the impact would do to you as the victim. Yeah, this guy was. 19 years old. Yeah. So at 19 back then over there, you couldn't even be in a consensual act. Yeah.

was someone of the same sex. So just by, you know, being a victim and reporting it, he would have faced a couple of years in jail. Yeah. That's, that's wild. So it makes you wonder how many things never got reported. I'm sure quite a few. Sure. But the other thing I think about is, you know, what does Andrew Ho think when eventually all this stuff comes out? Like we say a lot of times, right? This was probably

much more of a brush with death than he even realized at the time. On December 3rd, 1979, Dennis murdered 26 year old Kenneth Ackenden. Kenneth was a Canadian tourist on a hitchhiking trip around Britain. He met Dennis at a pub.

The two men drank for several hours, went on a tour of London, and went to Dennis's apartment. Dennis enjoyed Kenneth's company and didn't want him to leave the next day. So he strangled Kenneth with an electrical headphone core. He's kind of developing his own MO now. Yeah. And a lot of it is around, you know, developing quickly, I think, feelings for these men, but not wanting them to leave. He doesn't want that separation. The next day, Dennis washed Kenneth's body, dressed it, and took photos of it. He committed an act of necrophilia and again slept next to the body.

And then he put the body under the floorboards. But he often removed it and spoke to the remains as if Kenneth were still alive. He even watched TV with Kenneth dead sitting next to him. They get stranger and stranger. It was very bizarre, but to him, it probably felt very, very normal. Well, obviously, he enjoyed it. He enjoyed what he was doing or he wouldn't have kept doing it, right? Yeah.

You say that a lot. And remember how he saw his grandfather. Mm-hmm. And how his mom described that to him. This is all probably coming full circle. Yeah, I think a lot of it does go back to that. But, I mean, there's, you know, we mentioned Dahmer. Let's throw in a little bit of Norman Bates.

Let's throw in. I mean, this guy is like an amalgamation of real and fictional characters. Yeah. He's doing all kinds of things. He is. Dennis later said that he thought Kenneth's body was beautiful and described how he dressed him in fresh clothing,

put him to bed, and told him good night. He is treating. this man that he's killed, like a, like a girl might treat her American girl doll. This is, it's wild stuff.

It's almost like he's in an active relationship. Maybe in his mind he was with someone who couldn't leave him. Yeah. Right? Go back to Dahmer, Dahmer had this thing where he was trying to create someone who couldn't leave him. Yeah. But was technically still alive,

you know, drilling holes in people's heads and using. acid and all kinds of different things. But unlike some of the other victims, Kenneth had people looking for him before he died. He called a relative in Britain to inform them he was going to pick up cash for a flight, but he never showed up to their house. In the weeks following his murder,

several papers published articles about his disappearance. Kenneth's parents came to London to search for him for over a month. On May 13, 1980, Dennis invited 16, 16-year-old Martin Duffy to spend the night with him. He met Martin at a train station. Martin was homeless, which is likely why he accepted Dennis's offer to spend the night. Martin drank two beers and went to sleep. Dennis climbed on top of him and strangled him.

Martin lost consciousness but wasn't dead. Dennis drowned him in the kitchen sink. He then washed Martin's body in the bathtub, brought the body to bed, and committed an act of necrophilia. I think he enjoyed that more than the actual act of sex with a live person. Exactly. It's possible. But I want to talk about Dennis Nilsson targeting this person who was homeless.

You know, was that because with Kenneth, people came looking. And my thought is maybe so. Maybe that entered his mind when he was thinking about selecting his next victim. Sure. Yeah. It's going to be a lot easier for him. He doesn't have to worry about somebody coming and looking because what's the likelihood of that if you're homeless? May not have any family to speak of.

Exactly. Dennis kept the body in his wardrobe for two weeks and then put it under the floorboards. Martin Duffy was from Merseyside, England. He reportedly had a troubled childhood and spent time in care homes and on the streets. He was trying to turn his life around, though when he met Dennis Nilsen, according to the Press and Journal. In August 1980, Dennis murdered 27-year-old William Sutherland. Billy, as he was known, was from Edinburgh, Scotland.

He left home in 1980. He told his parents he would only be gone for a month, but they never saw him again. His parents reported him missing, but couldn't find him. Billy was a sex worker. He met Dennis in a pub and reportedly told him he had nowhere else to go. So he followed Dennis home after they went bar hopping one night. Dennis said he didn't remember much, but he strangled Billy and found the body the next morning.

And to me, this part is kind of fascinating. You know, this is at least the second time that he's kind of saying that he didn't really remember everything that happened. He remembered waking up and finding something. someone dead. Kind of like out of body experience? Well, I don't know. Almost as if, okay, I woke up.

I know I must have killed him, but I don't remember all the details. Between November 1980 and May 1981, Dennis claimed he murdered seven men who were never identified. In November 1980, Dennis attempted to strangle Douglas Stewart, a young Scottish barman. Douglas said he fell asleep in an armchair and wore. up with his feet tied and Dennis putting a tie around his neck. He knocked Dennis over and Dennis told him to leave. Douglas called the police, but they saw that both he and Dennis had been drinking. The police dismissed the incident as a lover's quarrel. According to the guardian, Douglas said, as soon as the word homosexual was mentioned, the police lost all interest.

And I don't think that was out of the norm. And not just over there. here in the United States as well. Yeah, I think far as investigating what was going on, they probably said, we're not going to do anything further now that we know what this is about. Yeah, which is wrong. It is wrong. We know it was wrong. But I think it happened quite a bit.

Some outlets have reported that if the police had searched the apartment after both Andrew Ho and Douglas Stewart's complaints, they could have found the bodies and prevented future murders. And I think that's, you know, absolutely true. There was some of that in the Jeffrey Dahmer case as well. Sure was. On September 18th, 1981, Dennis killed 24-year-old Malcolm Barlow. Barlow was an orphan with learning disabilities.

He spent most of his life in care homes. Malcolm lived with his sister. She told the evening standard in 1983 that Malcolm had left before. for long periods of time. But he always eventually came back. Dennis found Malcolm loitering outside his apartment. Malcolm complained of feeling weak from epilepsy. So Dennis took him home and called an ambulance. Malcolm returned to Dennis's apartment and set on the doorstep to wait for him to get home from work. He wanted to thank Dennis. Dennis invited him in and they had some drinks before Malcolm fell asleep. Dennis strangled him because he thought he was a nuisance, then put his body under the kitchen

sink. He's got a lot of bodies going on now. Yeah, at this point, he had seven bodies in his apartment. Wondering again, the smell. The smell. Is nobody else smelling this? I just had a, like a flash of that scene in the movie seven. Yeah. Where he's keeping that, that guy alive in that room. And he has hundreds of those. Christmas tree air fresheners. Oh, yeah, yeah. Hung up. Yeah. To try to, I guess,

disguise the smell or something. Yeah, I just, you know, these are seven bodies, but they're in various stages of decomposition. The smell just had to have been horrible.

I mean, you're coming into this person's apartment, house, whatever, or you're not going, man, it really stinks in here.

I don't think I want to be in here. Oh, that's a great point. I wasn't even thinking of that. I was thinking of, like maybe neighbors smelling. But yeah, if you're coming in, it seems as though you would smell it right away. No matter how attractive you are to this person, I think at some point you have to say,

I can't handle it. I can't handle this. You're attractive. I want to be with you, but not here. I'm out. But this one seems so different to me. You know, he was infatuated with some of these other men to the point where he described their dead bodies is beautiful.

You know, he dressed them. He laid in bed with them. Yeah. And here he called this guy a nuisance. Well, maybe this guy didn't check all the boxes for him, but he knew he had to do something with this individual because it sounded like maybe he thought he was not going to go away. Yeah, that definitely could have been. Catherine, Ramsland wrote, he sat in the flat with a half dozen other bodies awaiting disposal

some of them Nilsen had kept in bed with him for sexual purposes for as long as a week, having control over these men thrilled him and the mystery of a dead body that would not respond, fascinated him. It was his feeling that he appreciated them more deeply than they had ever been appreciated before. I think that just kind of gives you a little bit of insight into what's going on in this man's mind, almost as if nobody has ever loved or appreciated these men as much as I do. Now, they're dead, but I'm still displaying these signs of affection and appreciation. To these decaying bodies and having sex with them.

But we've talked a number of times, right, about the amount of decaying human remains that were in this apartment and it was said that Dennis had to spray his rooms twice a day just to get rid of the flies that were in his home. I would think more than twice a day, but I can't imagine what that looked like. Well, I don't know that you can spray enough to get rid of that smell. So there's smell, there's the flies. And it was said that his neighbors did start to complain about the foul odor. But Dennis told them it was due to structural problems with the building. Okay. I don't know what type of structural problems you could have that would smell like that. I get it. You could have a backup of maybe a septic system or something like that. Yeah, that would smell. But to me,

that's a different type of smell. Yeah. It's not good. No. When Dennis decided to get rid of the bodies, He cut them up on his kitchen floor with a knife or boiled the victim's heads. In the kitchen pot, he purchased months earlier. He put the remains of his first three victims in suitcases, put their heads in plastic bags, and kept the bodies in a shed during the summer of 1980. Yeah, that's going to help the smell. Oh, man. He put the victim's organs in a plastic bag and put the dismembered remains under the

the floor. He put some remains down a hole near a bush and into a gap between the double fencing in his yard. So he has bodies and body parts everywhere. Everywhere. He eventually took the bags and suitcases out to the yard and burned the bodies outside. In total, Dennis had three all-day bonfires where he burned the remains down to the bones. And for some reason, these fires didn't seemed to cause any suspicion among his neighbors. Dennis crushed up the bones that were left behind. Police will later find thousands of bone fragments in his yard during forensic examinations. Oh, that Dennis, having another bonfire. Is that what the neighbors were thinking? Well, and it doesn't sound as though he lives on a farm. Right. And, you know, his closest neighbor is

200 yards away. If the guy next door has a big bonfire going in my neighborhood for three days in a row, I'm either one going over there and asking him what in the hell is going on or, you know, I'm calling somebody to say, hey, can you check this out? After a few hours, you know, maybe by the time you wake up in the morning and the bonfire is still gone, you're going to question it. Well, this isn't even a burned barrel, which I would still question. Yeah.

But if you're talking about a full raging bonfire, you're thinking, Lord of the Flies. The other thing that I wondered is, so he's got this big bonfire. Right. And he's carrying suitcases out. You're telling me there's not one single person curious about what's going on with this bonfire who sees him pulling body parts out of suitcases. Yeah, you would think somebody should have sold something. I mean, at least around here, somebody would, right?

There's a lot of nosy neighbors. There is. You know, maybe this, the neighbors really kept to themselves there. They must have. They, they weren't curious at all about what was going on with this bomb fire. It seemed that really no one noticed what he was doing. According to Catherine Ramsland, at one point, Dennis's apartment was vandalized. And he had detectives come to investigate.

They had no idea. They were standing on top of dead bodies. And that I found. really hard to believe. You would think out of everyone, detectives would not disregard the smell, but... But if they never smelt that smell before.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Did you say smelt? I said smell. I think you said smelt. But we'll go with it. As in the old adage of he who smelt it dealt it.

See, it's a real word. You just use it in a sentence. That's how you know. The Daily Mirror reported that in 1981, a medical student named Robert Wilson was walking his dog on Dallas Hill Lane a few hundred yards from Melrose Avenue when he spotted a bag on the pavement near a trash bin. He saw what looked like human remains spilling out of the bag and other bags were in the trash bin. He called the police. The police removed the bags, but the victim was not identified. We just kind of talked about something like this on our Patreon-only episode.

So I get it. It was reported that the victim was not identified. What I couldn't find was, okay, what did they do about it? You know, was there an investigation? I'm sure there was. But obviously it didn't lead to Dennis Nilsson. On October 23rd, 1981, Dennis attempted to strangle 19-year-old Paul Knobbs. Dennis and Paul went home together that night.

They drank together and went to sleep. Paul woke up at 2.30 a.m. with a headache. Then he woke up at 6 and saw a red mark on his throat in the kitchen mirror. He noticed that his face was bruised and his eyes were bloodshot. Dennis said he looked awful and advised him to go to the doctor. And it was there that Paul learned that someone had tried to strangle him. But again, he declined to make a report. he was under 21 and he didn't want his family to know he was gay according to the guardian.

Now, I don't blame these people, these victims. Yeah. I blame the laws that were in effect at the time because had it not been for those, I think some of these victims would have filed reports. Now, maybe not Paul because he didn't want his family to know that he was gay. but then would that have stopped Dennis Nilsson? But who's going to make a report if by doing so you face going to jail or jail time? Yeah.

Nobody's going to do that. No. On December 31st, 1981, Dennis attempted to murder a young man named Toshimitsu Azawa. Dennis's neighbors heard him leave and come home with someone. They heard what they described as a commotion. And someone ran down the stairs and out the front of him. door crying. This was Ozawa. He told the police that he thought Dennis was going to kill him. Dennis approached him with a tie stretched out in his hands. But it was said that the police didn't do any

type of follow-up investigation. And I just wonder if it goes back to what we talked about earlier. The minute that they found out that this was a homosexual encounter, did they just wash their hands of it and say, we're not going to investigate it? Yeah, most likely. And my thought is, yeah, that's probably exactly what happened. I'm still seeing a lot of similarities between Dennis and Dahmer. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about that. By the end of 1981, Dennis had murdered up to 12 men in his apartment. According to Biography.com, Dennis described how he fell into what he called a killing trans, but claimed he had freed seven men because he was able to snap out of the trans.

Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't know what a killing trance is. Do you really believe he freed seven men? You know, one of the things, you know, as we kind of wrap this thing up for the first part up,

that I want to talk about is Dennis Nilsson's selection of victims. You know, we've talked about needing to be 21. years old to consent to this type of relationship, sexual encounter. My thought is he knew that very well and was targeting men under that age, thinking that maybe they would be less likely to go to the police if they somehow got away or whatever happened. If things went badly.

Yeah. Does that make sense? It does make sense. But as you said, you know, to me, there's no doubt. that some of this goes back to childhood. And I'm sure we'll talk about more of it in episode two, tying it all together. I just can't get over.

Some of the things that, you know, this guy did. You know, we talk about lust killers. We talk about all kinds of different types of killers, spree killers. Free killers, yeah. This guy killed,

but then he did so much with the bodies after he killed. And I think a large part of that is what's really jumping out at me, dressing them up, talking to them, sleeping with them in his bed as though he's still having a relationship with these individuals after they're dead. Yeah, he's a sick individual. Yeah, no doubt about it. Now, in part two, we'll discuss Dennis's move to a different part of North London, the final known victims, how Dennis was caught, his trial, and the years that followed. So we got a lot more in order to wrap up this story. But that's it for part one on Dennis Nilsson. I can see why so many people, you know, have requested this story. Oh, of course. It's fascinating in an extremely gruesome way.

And I really, you know, want to dive into what made this guy tick. Why did he do what he did and and you know we'll get into some of that more in episode two but we got some voicemails gives you and check those out always hey mr my hey mr yuddy uh this is meg from kus alabana i just wanted to call and let you guys know that i really really love your podcast i just found it maybe about two weeks ago so i'm working my way for about five years of podcast uh unfortunately i would love to be part of y'all's patreon but I am a broke college student. So, yeah, I can't really subscribe, but I would love to.

I am doing courses and machining those, so maybe I could make you guys like a little keychain or something. I don't know. But thank y'all for what you guys do, and I'll keep listening. Be growing time picking. Hey, she's from the hometown of Forrest Gump. Are you sure about that?

Tuscaloosa. I don't think so. No? No. Am I wrong? Yeah, that's where the University of Alabama is where he played football. Yeah. But that's not where he's from.

Because at some point later in the movie, he says, go back to something, something, Alabama. Oh, yeah. And he stresses it, he screams it, but I can't remember the name of the place. Well, he played football there. He did play football there. Roll tie. Roll tie. Not really, but.

No, not for us. We're not Alabama fans, but I'm sure she is. Absolutely. So I understand the broke college student. I've got two of those. Yeah. And we completely understand that. Now, once you get through and you get out, you know, you're making a little money.

That's right. Join Patreon that. Yeah. Come on back. Come on back. But a key chain would be cool. Especially if I say Gibby. We love handmade stuff when people put time into things.

And you can find our. address on the on the website hi Mike and Gibby my name is Chelsea I'm originally from Cleveland but I moved in the very years ago I was wondering if you guys would do or have done an episode on Ariel Castro he is the man who kidnapped Gina DeHazus Amanda Barry and Michelle Knight and kept him captive for 10 years so being a Cleveland native I'm super into the story worry and I know a lot about it and I was wondering if you guys have or we'll do one. Anyway, stay safe and keep your own time taken.

Bye, guys. All right. Thanks for the voicemail. We have not covered Ariel Castro. I thought about it a number of times over the years. Obviously, we were in Ohio. Yeah. We saw all the coverage.

There is something about that case that's really tough for me. Sure. There are actually a lot of things about that. case that are tough for me. I think it would be a very difficult episode to do. It doesn't mean we won't do it. But I seem like every time I think about doing it, I push it off. Yeah. And I don't know why. There's there's some facets to it that are just, you know, very, very rough. And maybe it has something to do with the fact that I have two girls. I don't know. Because we cover a lot of cases that are rough. We do. There's just something.

that stick out to me is, is when I start to think about researching them, I'm like, do I really want to dive into it that deeply? And how am I going to be affected by it? So, I'm sure we're covered. I'm sure we will eventually. Uh, mailbag. We had one thing and it was another wedding invitation. Oh yeah? Yeah. It's in Georgia. Okay. So I'm not sure that we're going to make it, but, uh, we appreciate it very much. Do I get to give the toasts? I'm sure they, they would let you do whatever you want to. You could do a full Rex West. I get to be the best man. I don't know if they'd let you be the best man. But you could definitely give a toast. You could put on a performance in your outfit and all that. Do my own dance. I'm sure. Awesome. You could do the Rex West.

Yeah. Absolutely. Do the Rex West dance. All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and give you. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.