True Crime All The Time - Diane Downs

Episode Date: April 1, 2019

Diane Downs was a woman that loved being pregnant but didn't like raising her kids. She was a self-centered person who didn't see to her kids needs. She was always on the hunt for a new man. And when the man she was having an affair with broke it off, Diane was devastated. She felt that the only way to get this man back in her life was to rid herself of her children.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the special kind of evil that is Diane Downs. Here is a woman that was so selfish, she was willing to murder her own children to get what she wanted. This is a case that will make every parent disgusted with how a mother could be so callous.You can can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

everyone and welcome to episode 124 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime Mike Gibson Gibby. How are you? Man, I'm good. 124. I know. Sneaks up on you, doesn't it? Does, man. That's like, just think back. We just, seems like we just did 100, Ed Kemper. Yeah. And now 124 already there. Dang. You know, the weeks tick by pretty quickly. They do, man. They really do about it. So you're doing good. I'm doing well. And you? Yeah, no, great. Good.

Everything's going well. I'm really excited for this episode. Yeah. I got into this one pretty deep because I do think it's fascinating. And it is one that people have requested. It's, I won't say it's, it's fairly well known. Okay. But, you know, we're talking about Diane Downs, mother of three, who attempted to murder her children.

And we've talked about mothers who have killed their kids before. To me, Diane Downs is totally different than some of the other mothers, Andrew Yates, some of those. You know, Diane Downs, she wanted to be rid of her kids for a very specific reason. She wanted her married lover to come back to her. And that was the only way that. that she thought it could happen. If she did this.

Yep. So I don't know. We are talking about a very special kind of evil here. And it's in the early 1980s. This case played out on the national news. Sure it did. It captivated people for a number of different reasons. I remember.

The fact that three children had been shot, the stories that Diane came up with to explain how they were shot. And then obviously, as everything unraveled, people were captivated with, you know, just how a mother could possibly do this to her own children and all of the reasons behind it and the stuff that we'll get into. Yeah. I mean, the shock factor back then was greater than it would be today. Still would be a shock factor. But I agree with you. I do agree with you in the early 80s to see this on the news because, you know, for one thing, I do think we're.

desensitized a little bit. Yes. Now in the almost 2020s. Right. That's hard, hard to believe that next year we're going to be in the 2020s. Just because it's on all the time. Exactly.

You know, you turn on the news. It's nothing but Bing, bang, boom. Yeah. People don't even go on internet. See tons of stuff. Blink an eye. Yeah.

You know, in some cases. So before we jump in, let's do our Patreon. shoutouts. Okay. We had Felicia Sloan. Hey, Felicia. Rosalind Rainey.

Rosalind. Becca. Becca Casper jumped up to our highest level. Wow. Thanks, Becca. Stacey Moeller. Hey, Stacy. Rebecca Holloway.

Hey, thanks, Rebecca. Anna Harvey. Hey, thanks, Anna. Anne Marie Pascoe. Oh, Pascoe. Tisha Wells. Hey, Tisha. Deb Grand jumped out our highest level.

Wow, Deb, thank you. Lena Smedbach. That's a good one. Smedbach. Yep. Rachel Kut, Kutrielle. That's what I'm going with. Kutriel. Kutriela.

Victoria Stebbings. Hey, Victoria. Dawn. Just Dawn. Erica Lilly. Hey, Erica. Lily. Benjamin Hewlett the 4th.

Benjamin Hewitt the 4th. It's very fancy. He demands a table. Freddie Grant. Hey, Freddie. Wilkatan Jr. Our buddy jumped up to our highest level. I like that.

Christine Wellifer. Hey, Christine. Nikki Gebhardt jumped out Our highest level Nicky, thank you Julie Broadley Thank you Julie And Mandy

Just old Mandy That's the only time That the use of that term Is perfect Appropriate Yeah Oh Mandy How many times she thinks she hears that

In a year Oh probably a bunch Yeah Probably a bunch Now I don't know how many times She hears old Mandy Well But

At least a couple times now. And if we go back into the Vol Gibbs, this week we selected Ulysses more. Ulysses. That's a good name, man. That's a kickout. It's very regal, presidential. You know, that's the first thing I think of is Ulysses S. Grant.

I don't know that many Ulysses is. I'm just, that's a strong, I'm saying, and how many, I mean, you can place your order or make your reservation. How many of those are you going to hear? None. Zero. Or have them write your name on your cup at Starbucks. Oh, yeah.

But been with us a long time. We appreciate that so much. We appreciate all the new support, the continued support. We had some great PayPal supporter buddy Ted Perry. Hey, Ted. Hope Arizona Street and you could. Yep. Kim Hester.

Hey, Kim. Jessica, thank you. Brata Hale. Alana Bush made a sizable donation. Thank you, Alana. Daniel Javier. Javier. And Robin Foster.

Thanks, Robin. All right. So right now, Gibbs, same time. We have an episode out of True Crime All Time Unsolved. We do. It's on the disappearance of Morgan Nick. Yeah. Mid-90s, Morgan Nick was a little six-year-old girl.

Yep. Who went missing down in Arkansas at a Little League baseball game. Yeah, just playing with a couple friends. And next thing, her mom knew, she looked over and she was gone. So check that out. We'll get into all the details of that. All right. We got to jump right into this Diane Downs. She was born Elizabeth Diane Frederickson on August 7th, 1955 in Phoenix, Arizona. She was born to Wes and Willadine Frederickson. Now, Willadine, that's a name you don't hear. Yeah, you don't hear that name very much anymore. I had a grandmother whose name was Mildon. That's another name that's kind of... Yeah, you don't hear that. You don't hear that.

My aunt was... I had an aunt named Mildred. Did you? But Willadine, although I think there was a character in a movie I watched not that long ago, Willadine. Oh, that movie Dumplin that I was telling you about with Jennifer Aniston. And I know for a fact she was actually in this movie. You sure? Not another waitress movie.

Yeah. But I think her daughter was named Willadine. Really? Yeah. It's been a while since I've seen it. I'll have to watch it. They would go on to... to have three more children. Her father, Wes, had trouble finding stable work when the kids were young.

And it was because of that that they moved around a lot. But finally, when Diane was around 11, her dad got a stable job with the U.S. Postal Service. We have a lot of listeners Gibbs that are mail carriers. We do. Or work at, you know, for the Postal Service, we're going to be talking about the Postal Service a little bit in this episode. Uh-oh. Not in a bad way. No, I always got along with the postal people when I was a UPS driver. I mean, they did want to be, you know, a UPS driver.

Why am I picturing that as kind of like the scene in Anchorman where all the networks come to rumble? So it's like the UPS guys with Gibby's carrying. Did you just kill a man with a Trident? That's right. Yeah. You got the FedEx guys, the United States Postal Service. guys.

Got the DHL hanging in the back. I don't know if we even qualify, but here we are. So he did. He got a job with USPS. And growing up, everything points to the fact that Diane pretty much towed the line when she was a kid. I think her parents were very strict, religious. You know, she was expected to dress a certain way, act a certain way.

And she did. Now, later in life, Diane has alleged that her father molested her during her younger years. We'll talk about that more later in the episode, but it was really around the age of 14 that things started to change for Diane. She stopped using her first name Elizabeth and started going by Diane. She also changed her hairstyle and her clothing. All of this in an attempt to fit in with the quote unquote, cool kids. Sure.

Did you ever do that? Did you change your name from Michael to your famous middle name? No. No, I let everybody around me change to conform with me. Is that what it was? That's how I rolled. Well, I know you didn't change your hairstyle. I had, and you know, because you've seen pictures, my hair was gorgeous.

Of course. It was so thick. It was lustrous. It had a sheen. I used products on it. Sounds like you still think about it a lot. Oh, my gosh. Sometimes I'll, you know, like they say if a person loses their arm.

Right. They can, they, they, they, they, phantom. Yeah, like a phantom arm. I have phantom hair. Yeah. Like, I'll reach up there sometimes. You're right. You just want to run my fingers.

Like getting out of your eyes. You're like, in your wife's like, there's nothing in your eyes. I just want to run my fingers through it. Yeah. But so this is a big change for Diane, right? She was described very early, you know, in her school years as, I don't know, kind of homely, you know, dressed very conservatively as her parents wanted her to. That all changed. Around the age of 14, she started to develop as girls do. And she started wearing clothes that

showed off her body. But it was also around this time that Diane started hanging out with a 16 year boy by the name of Stephen Downs. She knew Stephen. He lived across the street from them, but Diane's family didn't like him. They thought he was a troublemaker and maybe he was to an extent. But as often happens, Gibbs, that disapproval from Diane's family, it just caused them to fuse together even more. Yeah, they just, you just end up pushing your kid to whoever you don't want them with.

It happens a lot. Yeah. Just say, don't do this. And then they'll go do what you said. Don't go, don't go do. Do that voodoo that you do. Do do. But that is exactly what happens.

So this relationship blossomed over the next couple of years. By the time Diane was 16, the relationship had turned sexual. That's probably not that out of the ordinary for most people, even back then. No, I don't think so. I mean, I was. Well, I. I don't know. No, in the 70s, I think people started having sex at that age.

Yeah. Why they listen to some Les Zeppelin, Leonard, or whatever. But I do think it's an important detail in this story because Diane's sexual activities, they're very important in the context of, you know, some of the decisions that she makes later in life. So after graduating from high school, Stephen joined the Navy. Then later on, Diane graduated. She went off to attend Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College.

Seems like an odd choice for someone like Diane after we find out, right, who this woman is at her core. Right. But I think back then her, that was probably her family saying, you know, here's where you should go. Holding on to this kind of religiousness and wanting. Diane to kind of stay the good girl. Maybe it's only college that would take her. Or that. You know what I'm talking about.

What do you mean? You're saying there was only one that would take me? I had a couple of options. You had them fighting over you. But she wasn't there long, right? She got expelled from this Baptist college for what was termed promiscuity. I think we all know what that is. She was doing the thing.

with someone. And I guess Gibbs at a Baptist Bible college in the 70s, they don't take kindly to that type of hanky. They kind of frown on it? Yeah. What would just be normal at other colleges? Well, yeah, because you went to a college where you guys got co-ed dorms. Yeah.

And I had a four-story beer bong, which was awesome. Yeah. And you had girls living in your building. Sure. It was just normal. Normal every day. So she gets kicked out of this Bible college. But she still was Stephen.

And they get married in 1973, completely rocky from the very start. It was said that Steve wasn't great at holding down jobs. Diane was working part time at a thrift store. So naturally, you're going to have some pretty serious money problems. Sure. That's never good. I've never seen a marriage where there was constant money problems. be peaches and cream.

That's rough, man. And then if you throw in the fact that he was thinking Diane was cheating on them, you know, now you mix in money problems and infidelity. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you say he thought she was cheating.

I mean, I think he did think that, but I'm pretty sure she was. Sure. So what you have is just a household of, you know, constant fighting, bickering all the time.

But you know how you fix that? You have a baby. You have a baby. a baby makes it all so much better. And they did. They had their first child, a daughter, Christy, in 1974. So just the year after they got married, it's been said by many people, including Diane, and we'll probably reference it a lot, that she loved being pregnant. She loved it. But probably not surprisingly, the baby didn't help the problems in the marriage. Again, how many times does it? Well, it's not going to. But,

people think it will. A lot of people do. They think a baby will save the marriage. I don't think it happens that often, but. But you know how you fix that? Have another baby? Yeah. Exactly. Because sometimes you just need to have two instead of one. And then that gives each parent something to do. They each have their own baby to hold and play with it. So they can't fight with each other because they're too busy messing with the baby. That's right. But you're exactly right. They decided to have another baby. and in 1976, their second daughter, Cheryl Lynn was born. But what a shocker, the marriage didn't get any better. We've got these two little bundles of joy that need constant care.

They're crying all the time. That didn't fix our problems. Can't believe that. Shocker. You know, got to the point where Diane would leave Stephen for stretches of time. She'd take the kids. She would go stay with her family. but they stayed in the marriage together, even though they were extremely unhappy.

They moved to Mesa, Arizona in 1978. And they both got jobs at the same mobile home factory. So I can't stand to be with you from 5 o'clock on. Right. Let's just double that up. Yeah, let's work together. Let's work together and spend our evenings together. That's going to make it better.

See in a lunchroom at noon. just talk about how we feel about each other. So I met my wife at work when we were in our early 20s. Oh, did you? Yeah, but you know, that was the early stage. Right. So everything is. That was great.

Yeah. You guys went out to the car at once time. Yeah. Do a little smooching. Sure, you did. But if we had to work together now, I don't know. I don't know if it would be that great. You would need an office like you had when you worked with me.

So I could shut the door. Shut the door. And it locked and she couldn't get in there. And you'd be like, sorry, I'm on. a conference call. And I love my wife. And we have a great marriage. I just think it's probably not good to be with anyone for 16, 17 hours at a time every day.

Yeah. But it's on the assembly line at this mobile home factory that Diane began lusting for another man that worked there. She pursued him and eventually got pregnant with his child. That always fixes a marriage. Yeah, that'll fix it real quick. So, you know, not to joke around about it, but, you know, I mentioned up front her promiscuity. I think it's important for the story because it's going to come into play at key points.

So Diane has this baby. It's a boy named Danny just after Christmas 1979. Now, Steve knew this was not his child. There were some reports. I don't know how true they are that Steve had a vasectomy after their second daughter was born. So if that was the case, I think he was pretty sure that it wasn't his. But either way, he knew that Danny was not his son. So you have a pretty unique situation here from my perspective.

You're married to a woman. The marriage has been rocky from the get go. you have two children together and then you find out that she's pregnant with a child that's not yours. I think, Gibbs, you have a few decisions that you could make at that point. One critical for sure. What's that one? Do I stay or do I go? Oh, I think that's, yeah, the big decision.

Steve chooses to stay. And not just that. He makes the decision to raise Danny as his own child. I would think that would be a pretty tough thing to do. Yeah, you got to get him credit. Yeah, I think you do. But even that sacrifice is not enough to save this marriage because the pair end up divorcing. And Diane bounced around for a while with the kids.

She stayed with family. She stayed with friends. She even stayed with Danny's father for a time with the kids. By 1981, she is living with her kids. Chandler, Arizona, and she got a job at a post office. There you go. Her dad worked at the post office. She probably thought it was stable for him.

This is going to be stable for me. It's like a family business. And I do think it's a very stable job. Yeah, sure it is. One of the biggest things to me that was glaring in the research of Diane Downs was that she was just flat out a bad mother. She didn't attend to her children's needs as mothers do. In fact, it was really the opposite.

She neglected her children. There wasn't much that she didn't put ahead of her children. I think she was very selfish. Sure. Yeah. She was very self-centered. You know, she was the type of person that all that really matters is what I'm dealing with or what I want or. what I'm into.

I think there's a fair amount of mom and dads out there that do that. That's very tough to be a mother and be like that because, and to be a dad as well, you know, for most parents, their kids are their lives. I mean, they would do anything for them. Yeah, you normally sacrifice for your kids. So I do want to make a point of really who Diane Downs was. I think, you know, deep down she was just a, I think she liked being pregnant. but I don't think she liked her kids.

It kind of reminds me of that mom of that little girl and gone baby gone, where she gets her daughter back at the end. I haven't seen that. Is that the one with Ben Affleck's brother, Casey? Yeah. You know, I started watching that one day, and I heard it's good. Well, now you know the daughter comes. Okay, thanks for ruin it for me.

The daughter comes back in the end after she thought she was dead. Are you going to ruin even more? Because I think right now you're okay. I can watch it with that. Oh, she's just going to tell you her. personality. I was just saying... And she doesn't really care or she doesn't want to?

Well, you think you'd be happy and she's more excited about going on this date. Wow. And she's going to go out and don't even have a sitter for the kid. And it's Casey Afflex. He's like, he ends up staying watching her. And that's how it basically kind of ends, you know? And you're thinking, you know, because... So now you've told me the ending of the movie, too.

Yeah. Yeah. And now he's second guessing should he had brought her back. Well, there's no need for me to watch it now. No, yeah, to watch it's good. I already know how it ends. There was really a lot that came out about her. You know, she wasn't affectionate with the kids.

I think they were frightened of her. You know, one of her daughters ended up telling a babysitter that she was scared of her mom. And these kids were young. That's very strange. But I think even the neighbors could see she wasn't a great mom. Yeah, they said that, you know, the kids often came over to their house asking for food. They weren't dressed appropriately. And we've heard that on other episodes, right?

You've got in cold weather, little kids running around with no coat, you're not taking care of your kids. You're not feeding them. You're not clothing them. But she didn't care. I mean, there was times that she would want to go out. And if she couldn't find a babysitter, she just let the oldest kid watch them. Yeah.

And when we say oldest, that's six-year-old Christy at this time in the story. So she's watching. two kids younger than her at six years old. It's not good. That's not right. So it was during this time, Diane's in Arizona. She became a surrogate for a family who couldn't have kids on their own. She was paid $10,000 to carry and deliver this child.

I read an interview that Diane did. I think it was in the Washington Post. And it talked about the fact that of what a joy it was. for her to bring life into the world. And again, I said it. I do believe she enjoyed being pregnant. I also think she was a terrible mother. Right.

But she enjoyed being pregnant. And being a surrogate for a family, that's a great thing. Sure. Yeah, you think about people that do that. Yeah, they might get some money out of it. But you're really doing something great for a family that can't have kids on their own. But in this article, You know, Diane went on to rail against terminating pregnancies, something that she had apparently

done herself already by this point in her life. She equated it to killing a child. And it's just eerie to read those words knowing what Diane Downs is about ready to do. So I don't know why she was interviewed in this article. But obviously, it's before she, you know, committed to crime. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of eerie. 10 grand, that's a lot of money back then.

Yeah, 1988. What would that be today? Man, that's... Beep-bo, beep-boop, poop. Yeah. 120,000. Really? Yeah.

Oh, 120. Yeah. Okay. I thought we went from 100 to 120. No. All right, I'll go with that. I'd have to be paid a lot to carry a baby. Well, it'd also have to be a woman.

There'd also have to be some technology developed to allow you to carry. Doctor visits and other things to make that happen. I don't think you could do it. Oh, I could go the distance. I don't think you could do it. I got that all day long. I don't know if you have the intestinal fortitude to do it. And I'm not saying I do either.

Yeah. Well, I know you wouldn't make it. You wouldn't get past the first trimester. Why do I feel like there's going to be a meme of you and me like with pregnant bellies and half shirts? But just twins. It's like I'll be Danny DeVito. You'd be Arnold Schwarzen. nigger.

Oh, at least he made it that way. I know. I gave you Arnold. Yeah. Cool. All right, Gibbs, let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsors. Listen, you and I both know how hard it is to find a qualified candidate to fill a job position. It can take a long time.

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And now they have Audible Originals. And that has made their selection even better. So I finish my Jack Reacher. Now I'm on to Vince Flynn, who writes about the Mitch Rap series, which I love as well. Audio members can choose three titles every month, one audiobook and two Audible Original, that you can't hear anywhere else. They also get access to exclusive audio fitness programs. You can listen on any device,

anytime, anywhere. You'll also enjoy audio book exchanges, roll over credits, and an audio book library that you can keep forever, even if you cancel. So why not get started today with a 30-day trial? All you have to do is go to audible.com slash true crime or text true crime to 500-500. That's audible.com, a U-D-I-B-L-E slash true crime or text true crime to 500-500. Start listening today. All right. So back to Diane. She's in Chandler, Arizona. She's got this job at the post office. And that's where she met a married man by the name of Robert Knickerbocker. And she decided that she just had to have this guy. Nickerbocker. Nickerbocker. Good old Nickerbocker. So there's a trend, right, that develops. Diane Downs gets infatuated with a coworker, sets out to have that. person. She has to have that person. And in the case of the guy at the mobile home factory, she did. I mean, eventually she had his baby. And so she's developed this relationship with this guy at the

post office as well. They carried on an affair for some period of time. But Diane got real pushy. She began to demand that Robert leave his wife. And this was something he didn't want to do. I think he wanted the fling, but apparently the guy loved his wife, and he didn't want to ruin that. So he ended the relationship with Diane. So he wanted his cake and he ate it too. And then she said you can. You can only have one. And he said, well, then I'll go back to the cake. I just won't eat it. I didn't understand any of that, but hopefully somebody out there will. So that brings us to April of 83. The relationship with Robert has ended. Diane moved with her three children from Chandler, Arizona to Springfield,

Oregon. Springfield's just minutes away from Eugene, very close. So Anne Rule, you and I talk about Anne Rule often. She wrote a book about Diane Downs. It was called Small Sacrifices. And in the book, Anne described Eugene and Springfield as being like sisters. except Eugene is bigger and brighter and Springfield never graduated from high school. I thought that was a little rough for the people that lived in Springfield. Sure. But I read some other things about the two towns. And there is somewhat of a rivalry there.

You know, Eugene is talked about as more of like a hippie vibe. Some people call Springfield Springtucky. So we all know, anytime you get compared to Kentucky, we always know what that. And apparently there is a rivalry between the two towns. Some people have even said that Springfield, Oregon is the basis for the town Springfield and the Simpsons. The Simpsons. That the creator based that off of Springfield, Oregon.

And that Shelbyville in the Simpsons is supposed to be Eugene. I read something where he said that was true and then he later backtracked and said, no, it wasn't. So I don't know. And then there's Nancy Cartwright, right? She's from this area. She does some of the voices. Yeah, some of the big voices, right?

Some of the big character voices. All right. We got off on a tangent there. Yeah, we did. Diane Downs is in Springfield, Oregon. She got a job as a postal worker again at the Cottage Grove post office. But then you go back to Robert Knickerbocker. It's not like she left this guy alone.

She continued to ride him. She continued to pest you. him, she wanted him to leave his wife and come join her in Oregon so they could be together. Please leave and meet me in, or Iagon. She was infatuated with this guy. She's like, I did that. Or Egan. I got a lot of, you know what from the last time.

Oh, you always do. Yeah. But Robert wasn't having it. And he said, no, this is over. It's never going to happen. I'm never going to leave my wife. I'm never moving to. Springfield, Oregon, it's been reported that he also told her that he didn't want to play daddy to

her children. She probably didn't take that too well. She did not take it well. I don't think Diane Downs is a woman that takes rejection very well. And this is what many people believe led her down the very dark past she's about to take. So just to set everything in motion, Diane Downs is, you, about 27 years old. So pretty young. She's still a very young person. She has three kids. And it's on May 19th,

1983 that Diane took her three children to go visit a friend. And she was out fairly late. She left this friend's house at about 9.30 at night to make the drive back home. On the drive, Diane has said that she saw a shaggy-haired man. waving his arms for her to stop. This guy's flagging her down. So she pulled over and that's when the man tried to carjack her.

He said he wanted her car. She refused and that's when he took out a 22 caliber handgun and started shooting. Diane says that she was able to get away from him. She got in the car, drove away as fast as she could to the hospital. So I want to play a little bit of Diane talking about that night. Now, this comes later on after she's already in prison. Right. But I think it's pretty interesting.

I think people want to hear it. Somebody in the road flagged us down. I stopped and got out of the got out of my car. And he said something to the effect of, I want your car. And I laughed at him. And I said, you've got to be kidding. Because in my mind, those kinds of things don't. happen. In Arizona, those things don't happen. I don't know about Oregon, but in Arizona, those

things don't happen. And so he jumped into the car, leaned into the car, and started firing the weapon. And it happened so quickly that by the time he stood up and faced me, it was over. I mean, it was just that fast. He said something about the car again, and I struggled with him. The gun discharged. He fell back. I jumped in the car, put the keys in the ignition, and took off the car door shut by itself. That's it. And I went to the hospital. So that's essentially her story. When she got to the hospital that night, the staff there found a grisly scene inside the car. Cheryl Lynn was dead. And both Danny and Christy Downs were shot in the chest barely a lot. Meanwhile, Diane had a gun. gunshot wound to her arm.

So Danny and Christie would both live. But Danny suffered paralysis from the chest down. While Christy suffered a stroke that caused some pretty severe speech impairments, Diane told both hospital staff and police this story about the shaggy-haired man shooting at them and how she was able to get away, make it to the hospital, all of that. But it didn't take long at all for authorities to begin to think that Diane's story was bogus.

For one thing, she was acting very odd. The police came out and said this. They said that, you know, she was acting odd. She answered their questions in, you know, a very strange way. She also wasn't displaying the type of emotion Gibbs that police expected to see from her. It was said that she was amazingly calm. for someone who had just thwarted a carjacking was shot herself, had one dead child and the other two barely clinging to life.

But she was very calm talking to police in a calm manner. And reportedly she didn't even ask about the condition of her children. That's alarming. That's extremely alarming. Concerning. To anyone. But the police are looking at that at that end. something's not right here. You know, all she wanted to do was hop on the phone and call Robert

Knickerbocker. Police thought that was strange, especially when they found out who this guy was. He wasn't the father of her children. Right. He was an ex-lover who would later tell police the whole story, including, you know, how they had the affair, how stockery Diane was. I don't think that's a word, but I'm using it anyway. I like it. So it all goes into this big kettle of the police thinking, this woman's just not acting the way that she should be acting. Something is wrong.

The funeral for little Cheryl down took place on May 25th. And then, you know, really after that, Diane gave some television interviews. She was, you know, people wanted to talk to her. So let's play one interview. And then you and I can talk about it a little bit. Everybody says you sure were lucky. Well, I don't feel very lucky.

I couldn't tie my damn shoes for about two months. It is very painful. It is still painful. The scar is going to be there forever. I'm going to remember that night for the rest of my life, whether I want to or not. I don't think I was very lucky. I think my kids were lucky.

If I had been shot the way they were, we all would have died. You can't replace children, but you can replace the effect that they give you. And they give me love. They give me satisfaction. They give me stability. They give me a reason to live and a reason to be happy. And that's gone. They took it from me.

But children are so easy to conceive. So I cobbled that together from some different places. Right. But strange. Some of the things she's saying. Oh, yeah. Children are so easily replaced, so easily conceived. Yeah.

I got more. That's essentially what she's saying. Hey, honey, who ate the last donut? It's all right. I can go to the shop and get some. more. And I guess to talk about the fact that, yeah, you took a shot to the arm, pretty superficial. Right. You had a hard time tying your shoes for a couple of months when your one daughter died. Yeah. Your son was paralyzed. And your second daughter, your oldest daughter, barely survived.

Yeah, we don't want to hear about your, I got nicked in the arm, couldn't tie my shoe for a couple weeks. Let's talk about how hard it is for those kids. And I think she gave a lot of different interviews. We're not going to play a bunch of them. But so people are hearing her, seeing her on television. They think something's wrong with her. You know, the national audience thinks just like the police did. This lady is off.

She's not acting the way that a grieving mother should act. Right. With one of the, I think more local. stations. She actually did a reenactment of what she said happened that night with the car and everything. So you won't get to see it, but I want you to hear how it went. Sitting in the car is Elizabeth Diane Downs, one of the victims of this murder attempt murder. I'm throwing the keys, okay? I'm throwing the keys. Simulating. Yeah. I go like that. I got in the car.

I just hit my cast. Started the car and left. The car door shut itself. Bizarre. It just doesn't seem like a situation that you should be laughing at. Oh. So basically what happened was she jumped into the car quickly, hit her cast on the door, and then started laughing about it.

She's still in a cast, which means what? Fresh, man. This is not that long after the end. incident happened. Yeah. If you're going to relive the moment that killed one of your kids, almost took the life of your other child, and did so much damage to your third child, why would you even think anything was funny about that moment? No, you wouldn't. All right, Gibbs. So we've talked about Diane's version of events. Now let's talk about what really happened that night. She did take the kids out to visit a friend, but there was no strong.

stranger, right, flagging her down in the road, Diane simply pulled off the road and shot her children. Yeah, just pulling it over. Boom, boom, boom. Oh, well, you know, she did have to shoot herself an arm. Right. Then she had to shoot herself in the arm to make it more believable. Duran Duran's Hungry Like the Wolf was playing on the radio as this thing was playing out. And we'll talk a little bit more about hungry like the wolf a little, you know, further on in the episode. It was a big song. You probably couldn't go really anywhere without hearing it on the radio. Oh, it was huge back in the day. Was never a big Duran Duran fan myself. More of a Cindy Lopper fan. Why do I have, no, I didn't, I didn't say that. I just wasn't a huge Duran Duran fan.

Yeah. Although that song was okay. You probably were dancing to it. Well, you know, act like you're the wolf. If anything, I would act like I was the wolf. Yeah. Did you see the video? wolf or the roof I actually don't remember the video do you no so why'd you bring it up I remember some of it but I don't remember her you don't remember enough to actually talk yeah you stump me I didn't try to stump you you're the one that brought it up I stump myself you stumped yourself which is most of the time what I do so this song is playing as Diane is shooting her children And as if all of this isn't horrible enough, she drove very slowly to the hospital just to increase the chances that her children would die. I mean, just think about this. This is the mom of these kids. She just shot her own kids. They're probably crying, screaming. Sure. In a panic.

Whaling. Yeah. And she's just driving, listen to hungry like the wolf. She's taking her time. You know. I mean, zero heart, zero heart. No, and that's why I said in the very beginning, we're talking about a special kind of evil that could do something like this. But like I mentioned, cops were on to Diane. And as they started to investigate her, some very interesting things started to come out.

Blood spatter and gunshot residue evidence didn't match. Diane's version of events at all, neither of them was where it should have been. If things had played out the way that Diane Downs claims they did, police also discovered that Diane owned a 22 caliber handgun that conveniently she had not mentioned. But I think, you know, even more damning is the fact that inside her house, they found some 22 shells that had the same type of ballistic markings on them as the empty shells left at the crime scene. That's probably enough to get her arrest.

You're not walking away from that type of evidence. And police did arrest Diane on February 28, 1984. Now, you have to think, this was nine months after the shootings. So it took them some time, right, to do their investigation, to find out all of these things, to have enough ammo to arrest her. They arrested her as she was walking into the post office where she worked. So a county grand jury indicted Diane Downs on one count of murder, two counts of attempted murder and two counts of first degree assault. All right, Gibbs. Let's take our last quick break to talk about better help. Listen, folks, if there's something out there that's interfering with your happiness or

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fill out a questionnaire and get matched with a counselor you'll love. That's It's betterhelp.com slash teacat. So Diane's trial began on May 10th, 1984, lasted for about six weeks. But I think the shocking thing at trial Gibbs was that in the footage that you see, it's pretty clear. Diane is about eight months pregnant. Yeah. At the time.

She loved being pregnant. She did. Which means what? She conceived sometime after. her children were shot and before she was arrested. Yeah. Yep. I told you this lady like being pregnant.

So she wasn't too saddened by what happened, but she went out and had some fun. Yeah. Met a man, got pregnant, then got arrested. So we get into the trial. The prosecution's big argument to the jury about Diane's motive for shooting her children was that she needed to be free of them, right? Kind of already mentioned that. This was the only way in her eyes that she could get her married lover, Robert Knickerbocker,

back in her life. This guy had already said that he didn't want kids. He didn't want to be a father to her kids. So the prosecution put forth that if the kids were gone, there would be nothing standing in his way of coming out to join Diane. other than the fact that he's married and apparently loved his wife. Right. Those key factors.

But that part doesn't matter, right? It's what's in Diane's head at the time. The prosecution put forth all of the forensic evidence, which, as we mentioned, went against Diane's story. They talked about the gun evidence, the casings, the ballistics, the ballistics. But they had witnesses. And the witnesses were very important. There was at least one witness that claims they saw Diane driving after the time when the shootings would have occurred.

And they testified that she was driving so slow they had to pass her. But it really was Diane's own daughter, Christy, who by this point was nine years old, that was probably the most impactful witness slash evidence in the whole case. You know, she had been injured pretty severely. I mentioned she had injuries that caused, you know, speech impairment. So it took her a while to be able to talk again. But by the time the trial rolled around, she could. And she told the jury that her mother had shot all three of the kids. There was no one else.

There was no shaggy-haired stranger. waving his arms and flagging, you know, her mother down. There was nobody else on the road. She simply pulled over, took out a gun and started shooting. Christy also described how hungry like the wolf was playing when it happened. So what the prosecution did, Gibbs, is they played a tape of that song. This is where it gets a little bizarre for me. To drive it home to the.

the jury. Yeah. But I think, so what makes it bizarre, I think what you're alluding to is the fact that as the tape is playing, as the song is playing, Diane Downs was snapping her fingers. She's tapping her toes. She's kind of bobbing her head along with the beat. Yeah. Like she's at a concert or something. Yeah. From front row at Duran Duran, I've got my lighter out. I'm waving it around. Yeah. It's 1980 whatever. I've got my spandax. She took a bra off, threw it up on the, I mean, up towards the judge. Not really, but. How bizarre. Yeah, it's just, I don't know, you're on trial for the murder and the, the assault to your kids. Well, and this song was playing when it happened. Yeah. Just very strange. But you're going to sit in the courtroom and act like that. So, you know, I talk about

Anne Rule and the fact that she wrote a book about this case, she was in the courtroom, you know, for much of it in doing her research. She talked about this and how it, you know, kind of stuck with her, watching a mother kind of bopping along with the song that was playing when you shot your children. Yeah, it's just bizarre. I mean, definitely would stick with you. I mean, seeing something like that, yeah, I'm sure Ann Rule was like just shaking her head. like, what is this woman doing?

Well, she's probably thinking, hey, that's going in the book for sure. So this is golden. It's gold, Jerry. Diane's defense team created a narrative around Diane's story of the stranger in the road, which was kind of hard to do. I mean, you have a nine-year-old child involved in the incident that is, you know, gets up on the stand and says, no, this is how it happened. Right.

But what else can they do? I mean, that's Diane's story. They have to work with that. Yeah, build the best case around what they can. They also had to deal with the Robert Knickerbocker thing, which you know the prosecution played up. That was kind of their whole motive thing. So what the defense did was they admitted that Diane was still in love with Robert.

I don't know how they couldn't have. There was too much evidence pointing to that fact. but they said, okay, she's in love with him, but that's not a reason that anybody would kill their own children. They also had to try to spend the prosecution claims that Diane was promiscuous, which I would think would be hard to do when she's eight months pregnant sitting next to you. With her third baby daddy? At least.

At least three. Yeah. I think she was pregnant a total of six times. Oh. Because I mentioned early on she had an abortion. Well, that's true. Yeah. So she delivered five.

But they also had the issue of her very odd behavior, inappropriate behavior after the incident. Like we said, Gibbs, no grieving mother would have acted like that. Just no way. So really what the defense did was point to Diane's childhood and the incestuous assault. the molestation that she suffered at the hands of her father to try to explain why she wouldn't act maybe the way that you would expect her to act. What is really sad about this is that later on, Diane is going to say she made that up.

Yeah. She was never sexually abused as a child. Her father didn't do anything inappropriate to her at all. But you think about this guy, his name got dragged. through the mud. Yeah. She already did the damage. What would that be like to have your own daughter accuse you of doing something like that when you know in your heart you never did? Right. Be tough. That would be crushing as a father. Now, this is also a daughter that tried to kill her three children. So, you know, you got to put it in perspective. Right. But her dad never thought that she did. He stuck

with her throughout everything. Even when he was a bad daddy. Yeah. I mean, I think that's more than being a bad dad. Well, you know, I mean, it's a very, let's say very, very, very bad. Yes. Dad, very bad person. Even through that part of her saying he did this, he stuck with her, defended her, said, you know what, there's no way that she would have killed her children. He even offered up, like, I think it was like a hundred thousand dollar reward. for anyone that could help exonerate his daughter, prove who actually, you know, committed the attack. So the jury weighed all the evidence. And they found Diane Downs guilty on all charges on June 17th, 1984. She was later sentenced to life plus 50 years. A doctor testified during her penalty phase,

a psychiatrist that Diane Down suffered from a severe personality disorder that gave her the propensity to commit future crimes. And the judge, after he handed down the sentence, he said, it is the hope of this court that this defendant never again be free. I don't think that this court has accomplished that, but I've come as close as I can. So that's, that's a judge saying, if I could have given her the worst, maybe even death. I would have. I would have done it. But I couldn't.

I was shackled by whatever, the legal system in that she could only get X. I think that's, you know, I don't know how a judge can be any more clear as to what a piece of shit you are than to say something like that. Yeah. Well. If I could have taken you out myself, I would. Sure. You know, anything short of that.

So then Diane Downs got to talk and she said, I want to tell the community that they cannot let their guard down because there's still a killer out there. I will abide by the decision of the court. And when I'm set free, I will try to find my daughter's killer. She's going to abide by the decision of the court, Gibbs. What else are she going to do? She's going to say, you know what? No, I don't agree with. what you're saying and I'm not going to do that. Less than two weeks after she was found guilty,

Diane had her baby. Of course, the baby was taken away from her and eventually was adopted. Now, later on in recent years, this baby's grown up, knows who her mother is and this woman has been on a lot of the different talk shows. She's been on Oprah, Dateline, 2020, all the biggies. Work on the circuit. Yeah. Talking about, you know, what it was like. I mean, can you imagine that growing up and then one day finding out that your real birth mother was Diane Downs.

Be horrifying, man. Knowing what she did, I think you'd have to feel like you dodged a bullet on that one, right? Oh, I would. To get out of that situation and be adopted, hopefully by a loving, family. I'm hoping she grew up that way. I don't know much about her. I know her name, but I'm not saying it because I don't think it's that important. So Diane's in prison. Her youngest baby has been adopted. Then in 1986, the prosecutor in the case against Diane, this is a guy

by the name of Fred Hugie. This guy and his wife, they adopted both Christy and Danny. Wow. Think about that for a minute. For one thing, we've talked about it. Danny is a paraplegic. He required constant care. So I think this is kind of a fascinating part of the story. This is the guy that put their mother in jail for harming them, then turns around and says, come live with me and my wife and we'll take care of you. Yeah.

It's amazing. I mean, it takes a special kind of person to adopt. I think just, just flat out. but then to adopt someone that is paralyzed for somebody that's going to require special care. Yeah, I think that's a different level, right? And then add on top of that the history of the trial and the prosecution and, you know, I'm the guy that put your mom away. The whole thing is just like if you, again, I say this all time, but if you wrote that

in a book or a movie, people would be like, that's so, that's so strange. that would never happen. Yeah. Now you're reaching. Yeah. But it did happen in this case. But the one thing that I kept thinking about Gibbs, and I don't know if you did as I was doing the research, was, where's Stephen, the ex-husband?

Yeah. I kept thinking that the whole time. He doesn't really pop up much. Now, Danny was not his child, but Christy was. So, and I don't want to speak bad about the guy because I don't. know anything about him, but that's another thing that seems strange to me, that this prosecutor guy steps in and adopts both kids when there's a biological father in the mix. Exactly.

Of one of the kids. And maybe they all got together and decided that they didn't want to split them up. I really don't know. That's true. Yeah. Maybe he didn't have the means to take care of both of them. There's a lot of things that could happen. That's why when I don't know the answers, I definitely don't want to, you know,

badmouth this guy, but it's the question that kept coming up. Then we get to 1987 and it was on Saturday, July 11th. Hey, that's my birthday. Is it? July 11th, man. Just another thing you have in common with a heinous killer. True that. Because it's about 840 on that morning. Diane Downs escaped from the Oregon Women's Correction Center in Salem, Oregon. And she didn't just walk off of like a work detail. This woman scaled a 16-foot chain-link fence that was topped with about two feet of coiled barbed wire. You must have got a little sliced up. Well, it was said that she took her clothes off and used that. I don't know if she had extra clothes or if she was jumping over buck naked. I really don't know. But a shirt and a pair of flimsy pants are not going to save

you from two feet of that barbed wire. Not going to protect your giblets. Well, she doesn't have giblets. Here, whatever else you would call them. Whatever else you would call. Your unmentionables. You're unmentionables. But she did.

I mean, you know, that's a feat in and of itself. Yeah, you probably couldn't make it at eight feet up the wall. I couldn't make it three feet if there was another two feet of coiled barbed wire. That's true. That would be five foot tall. I couldn't figure out how to get over. that. I can't do it. Let alone a 16 foot fence with another two feet of the barbed wire on top of it. So she's over the fence. She's outside of the yard within about 20 minutes. She flagged down a couple in a car.

And Diane told them that she needed help. She needed to get help for her boyfriend because he was in a car accident. So they're taking her. But then a little bit later on in the trip, apparently Diane said, that she'd really like to have a pizza. Just can we stop and get a pizza? I'm telling you that the woman is so odd. I don't know how else to put it. In every scenario, every situation,

she says the strangest things. I mean, obviously there's no boyfriend. There's no car accident. But if you're trying to sell it, maybe don't say, hey, can we stop by the dominoes first

before we go get help? Right. So this couple eventually dropped her off. off at a restaurant. Not very far. It was only about a quarter of a mile from the prison. That's all they could handle. But you can imagine what type of panic this escape set off. Authorities were sure that she was going to either try to flee to Canada, to Mexico, something like that, or even worse, she was going to try to harm her kids. And I guess the house of this guy, Fred Hugie and his wife. It was only about 60 miles away from the prison. So they were

freaked out. I mean, they had guards because this thing lasted for 10 days. She was on the outside for 10 days. But she didn't do either of those things. She didn't head for another country. She also didn't head for or try to find her kids. What she did basically was hole up in the house of a man whose wife was in prison with Diane Downs, this woman inside had given Diane this guy's address and said, if you make it out, go here. And Diane did. And this guy took her in. And like I said, she managed to elude capture for 10 days. But they finally got her. They nabbed her in this house. And even the house was only about eight blocks from the prison. She just never made it that far. Never vent her too far. Now, some people.

have speculated that she knew there was a lot of heat and that it would be better not to try to go too far now and lay low lay low for a while and then make make a break for it but it's the way they found her that i thought was so amazing it's almost like one of those movie moments there was a pad of paper in diane's cell and on the pad of paper they could see like very faint indentations it's starting to sound a little bit like the fugitive. Was that in the fugitive? I think it was. So I was thinking it was like Red Dragon.

There was another, there's been a couple of movies. Yeah, they've used it in many movies. They have. Yeah. I've used to work for you. I would go into your office when you're at lunch and then I could see you had important things about us and I would take the pencil and just lightly go over it and be able to read the note.

Yeah. But the funny thing was it, it was always like Gibson's a, ass. I was going to say, you might find out some things that you don't want to know. Did he know I was coming in to do this? So this was a little more involved than the the pencil rubbing technique. I don't think the indentations were that, you know, strong. They had to bring in the FBI and they used some, you know, toner ink. They used a special vacuum system. But somehow they were able to figure out what had been written on the piece of paper that was on top. And it was this address of this guy's house.

So they got Diane. They also got the guy that was harboring her. Diane received an additional five years for the escape on top of her life and plus 50. Yeah. Yeah. We gave you five more on top of that. Yeah, they give her an additional five years. So she got life.

maybe what I didn't clarify is it wasn't life with no parole though. Oh, because we're going to talk about it towards the end. Right. You're here in just a minute that she's been up for parole already several times. But after the escape in the, you know, the Oregon correction system, they caught quite a bit of flack for somehow allowing a 30-some-year-old mom to escape their highly fortified prison. it was in all the papers. I mean, they were making fun of them.

She could have been in that movie, Prison Escape. What's Rocky? Prison Escape, or whatever the movie's called. You're talking about the one again where he's supposed to be testing the prison, but somehow they put him in it? Yeah, exactly. Skate plan. Isn't that what it's called?

Yeah. I haven't even seen it. You're the one who keeps saying that you like it. I do like it. But now you're calling it prison something. So what they decided to do was, transfer her to a prison in New Jersey. There you go.

So they wanted her to get the hell out of Oregon. Yeah. Chipped her all the way to the other coastline. I think in large part, some of this came from the prosecutor. Like I mentioned, he only lived like 60 miles from this prison and to think that this woman could somehow get out again. She was later sent to a prison in California. The man who helped harbor Diane for those 10 days.

He pleaded guilty to charges of harboring and hampering. I forget. There was a number of different charges. He was sentenced to five years probation and six months in a restitution center. So I talked about Anrule writing the book, small sacrifices. She followed the case extensively. She spoke with Diane Downs a couple of times as she was putting this information together for the book. then in 1989 they made a movie. Really? Yeah, had Fair Fawcett in it. Ryan O'Neill was in it.

Fair Fawcett. Boy, back in the day, Farah Fawcett was something. I had that poster of my wall. How many copies of that poster do you think they sold? And question two, has there ever been a poster since that has sold more copies

than the Farah Fawcett poster? I don't know, man. But it had a sell. bunch. I can't imagine that there's ever been a poster unless it was maybe like a Michael Jordan or something like that that has sold more copies than the Farah Fawcett posters. He was just a good-looking woman. She was. So I mentioned just a minute ago about Diane coming up for parole. One thing about Diane Downs is that she never changed her story. Not once in all these years. Stayed with it. She has stuck with the stranger in the road, flag me down, shot my kids and myself.

She's always maintained her innocence even when she was up for parole. Do you still maintain that you did not commit these murders or the murder and the other crimes you were convicted of? Absolutely. I didn't commit them and I still maintain my innocence. The state says that I was the one that shot them and that I wanted them dead. If that was the case, I would not have taken to the hospital still crying. There are so many other ways to accomplish such a horrific deed if I was going to do it.

I'm certainly bright enough to figure out another way besides some way that looks so absolutely insane and hokey that nobody would believe it. I'm not dumb. Says the dumb one. That's what all dumb people say. I'm not dumb. I'm not dumb. So she was up for parole in 2008, then again in 2010, denied both times. She will be up before the parole board again next year in 2020. 2020, man.

Probably covered by 2020. 2020 doing the 2020 parole. Exactly. Wow. But the thing about parole and parole board in particular is they don't like it when you say you didn't do it. Right. I mean, they want to hear remorse. They want to hear you say you did it and that you're sorry. Sure they do. Before they will let you out, that makes it tough for somebody that is really innocent. There have been a lot of cases recently of people that were exonerated that went before the parole board that I think probably could have gotten out.

Yeah. If they would have been willing to say, yes, I did it. And I feel bad. about it. But they couldn't do it because they didn't commit the crimes. Right. So they weren't going to say they did something they didn't do. No, I'm not saying that about Diane Downs. I think she did this. But as in any case, there are some people that don't believe she did. If you're one of those people, it's probably because of what Diane herself just said there in that clip. If she really wanted to kill her kids, couldn't she have thought of a better way to do it? Well, I think this is the way she thought was the best way to do that. I was hoping you would say that because I completely agree. You know, she says she's not dumb. I wholeheartedly believe that she thought this was genius. You know,

she just made a bad plan. You know, she thought this plan was going to work and it just was a really bad plan. Yeah, it was a horrible plan. I mean, obviously any plan to kill your children is horrible. but as plans go, there was just so much room for error in this plan. You know, you are dependent on how quickly someone is going to die from a gunshot wound. And in her plan, these children are going to die if I drive slowly enough to the hospital. Yeah. But it didn't work. No.

You know, two of the children didn't die. hospital personnel surgeons, whoever were able to save their lives. Absolutely. But even if they had, you know, if the worst had happened, all three of the children had died, I still don't think she would have gotten away with it. I think her actions, she was just a strange person. She acted very strangely. And I just think it tipped too many people off.

Yeah, she would have gave herself up. Not by saying she did it, but just like you said, through her actions. Yeah. Yeah. So as we're wrapping up, Gibbs, I found kind of an offbeat, off the wall article. It was from 2014. So apparently Yo Play Yogurt came out with a new ad campaign for their yogurt. Okay.

And they used the song, Hungry Like the Wolf. Oh. From Duran Duran and they used it legally. They bought the rights. or whatever paid to use it. But there was so much backlash that came out after this ad. So you get figure 2014 is social media.

Yeah. So Facebook, Twitter. It's a lot of time that passed though. It is. And that's why I thought, you know, it was kind of interesting that there would be so much backlash after so many years, people still associating this song with the tragedy,

caused by Diane Downs, but there was. Yeah. You know, to the point that Duran Duran said, we don't want you to use it. Please don't, please don't use it. And I think Yoplay would have, they were going to take it down anyway because so many people came out and said, I can't believe you would use this song that is so closely tied with this tragedy in promoting your yogurt. I wonder, was Yoplay, is that a Oregon based company?

Not that I'm aware of. So not only are you saying the gone now, but you're adding like an E or E? I'm trying to make people happy. You're really like going. I'm trying to sell it, man. I'm trying to make them happy. But that's it. That's the case of Diane Downs.

And I know when we do these, people get upset, not with us, but they get angry and they should get angry. Parents especially, these are the type that, you know, you listen to and you just think, how in the world can somebody do that? Aside from all the other murders that we talk about, it's the parents murdering their kids that nobody can seem to fathom that. Right.

We got some voicemails, Gibbs. Let's hear them. Check those out. Hi, y'all. This Cleveland Brown here. I just wanted to let you guys know I'm a big, big fan of the show. I was just wondering if maybe you guys can do an episode on my wife, Loretta.

She died, and I have reason to believe that case is gone unsolved. And I think that son of a bitch, Quagmire has something to do with it. Anyway, big fan. Keep your own time ticking. So I heard that one. And of course, it made me laugh.

Absolutely. I am a huge family guy fan. I have been for, you know, a long time. That was a half decent impression. Pretty good. Of Cleveland. Yeah. Not bad at all.

And then, you know, once he threw the Loretta in there and then the quagmire. You were sold? I was sold. Giggedy, giggedy. Sabrina, Mather, New Jersey. I just have to say that I love your podcast. You both are phenomenal hosts,

but I do have a little bit more of a connection with Ghibi. You guys say that he has Ghibi-Isms. Well, I also have Sabrina Isms. I have a lot of dyslexity. I was just listening to an episode where he says, Ruder Router, and it just had me cracking up. As far as suggestions, I don't know how sick this is going to sound of me,

but have you guys done any episodes, or do you have any episodes coming up on child serial killers? I think that'd be a really good topic to cover. It's also not that common, so I feel like that would be very intriguing to hear about some children who have committed crimes and work it from there. So again, I love you guys. Can't wait to listen to more.

And keep your own time. Pickin. So you got that delexia like I do. She called it something different, though. I know. But she's Team Gibby. So it's okay. Don't be calling her out, man.

I'm not calling her out. What? How am I calling her out? You're so anti- Anybody, Gibby. If anything, it's the other way around. You are, how can everyone not be Team Gibby? I'm totally fine with people. A lot of people have stuff in common with you.

They should. They say Oregon. Orygon. Or cousins. And they're like, oh, Gibby. He's just like me. That's how I say it. So child killers.

Yeah. We have talked about at least one that I can think of. I have a number of them on the list. And I think we probably will do one pretty soon. I have one in mind. Hey, this is Emily from Indianapolis. Been a big fan for the beginning. Can't lie.

Um, have a general question for me for you guys. I've been listening to this other podcast and they brought up a question. I thought it was perfect for you. Um, if your wife came home and said, honey, listen, I don't know what happened today. I just, I got so upset. The barista. Not, no, no, no, no. They're not even the bristha.

The FedEx man. He's hitting our mailbox. He's trying to do it. He continuously is doing it on purpose. And I just snapped. I saw him at the juice bar and I just, I just snap. I killed it. I was in the backseat of my truck.

Would you be a ride or die or would you bailor or would you call the cop? That's my real question. This is Mike gets in trouble too. So think about it right. All right. Stay alive. Keep your own time, pick it and peeve Mike all the way.

I do that way. So you've never seen our FedEx guy because he wouldn't be at a juice bar. Well, so that's the first thing I was thinking. I don't actually know what a juice bar is. I mean, we have some stores around here that make juice. Is that what a juice bar is?

Yeah. For some reason, I was thinking a juice bar had something to do with exercise slash juice. Well, some big gyms have a juice bar inside of it. Okay, but they're not connected other than the fact that the place that makes the juice is inside the fit. I'm not in a lot of fitness places. I don't know if you're aware of that. And you don't drink a lot of juice either, but it's like going to get a jumba, like what do they call

that place is jamba juice? Jamba juice. Or jamba juice as jumbah. You would pronounce it. Jumbo juice. Yeah, we got a place over here called what, Tropical Smoothie Cafe or something. Yeah. You can get like B-12.

Remember you were trying to do your own juicing? Yeah. It'd be like doing that, but a real place. Yeah, those places have those, like the juice that I made. Yeah. Okay. So we got off. Yep, we did.

It's a very tough thing to answer. I think I'm a ride or die. Well, you have to be. I can't turn my wife in. No. Now, she's a ride or die. I don't know. There's the problem.

That's where the problem weighs. I don't think I'll ever be in that position, but... Unless something happens anytime after this has been released for public hearing, this is not to be used as evidence against Mike because he really didn't mean it. Yeah. Thank you. Gibby is my attorney. Hi, this is Renee.

I'm from Binghamton, New York, and I've called before. But not only are you entertaining and I enjoy the podcast while I, work, but you've also made me more aware of my surroundings and not to let my guard down so or easily. You know, I've always been a care-loving person, and now I'm kind of a little leery about people. Well, I just want to say thank you for, I'm sure, I'm not the only one that you've made aware of their surroundings. Thank you.

And keep your own time ticking. Bye. I always think she speaks so good, so well. So well, yeah. I was actually thinking that. same thing. She has a very calm, soothing voice. I like it. I think she'd make a good podcast host. Easy. I wasn't talking about replacing you or anything. But it's funny that your mind automatically went to that. I've seen some of your tweets. I mean, the rehearsal thing was kind of out of hand.

So I do think that we hear that a lot, right, from people that say, and it's not just our podcast, all podcasts, true crime documentaries, all types of things. like that have made them more aware. You know, when you talk about head on a swivel, you talk about knowing what's around you before you get out of your car in a, in a parking lot, late at night, things like that. I'd love to be carefree. The problem is in today's society, I think it's almost impossible. Yeah. No, you're right. Because we're not living in Mayberry. Maybe some of us are. The majority of us are not living in Mayberry.

No. Where you can leave your doors unlocked, an apple pie on the windowsill. Walk around in your furry costume, not be ridicule. Walk around in my tidy whiteies, as you always say. You got them on now. You just can't do that anymore. That's why I'm not looking that direction. All right.

We appreciate the voicemails. No mail bag this week. We didn't get anything in the mail. No jerky. No jerky. No coffee. You said something. about the fact that we were supposed to get some coffee.

I haven't seen it. Somebody said to you a coffee. No, no coffee. Really? Minnesota coffee. No Minnesota coffee. Well, maybe it's being a customs got it. From Minnesota?

You know. You got stopped at the Ohio border. Let's check this Minnesota coffee out. That's pretty funny. All right, everyone. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

You know.