True Crime All The Time - Donald Harvey "The Angel of Death"

Episode Date: January 30, 2017

Donald Harvey earned the nickname "The Angel of Death" by killing somewhere between 37-70 individuals. Most of these murders occurred while Harvey worked in various hospitals in Kentucky and Ohio. Donald Harvey preyed on the most vulnerable people when committing his crimes. Donald Harvey would later try to say that he was a mercy killer and was ending the pain and suffering of the people that he killed. But the facts of his murders don't support those assertions. Join Gibby and I as we discuss this prolific serial killer. Visit our website at http://truecrimeallthetime.com. You can support the show for as little as $2 a month by clicking on the button that takes you to our Patreon page. If you like the show please rate and review us on iTunes and tell all of your true crime loving friends. Don't forget that we now have a new spin-off podcast called True Crime All The Time Unsolved where we delve into history's most fascinating unsolved cases.   True Crime All The Time is an Emash Digital Production See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome everyone to episode 12 of true crime all the time. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibby Gibson. Hey. What's going on, Gibb? Just glad to be here. Always. Always fun to be in studio. So we've had a lot of stuff going on lately, man.

Been pretty busy. So we debuted our first listener hometown episode. That was with Jordan. Right. turned out awesome. Yeah, that went very, very well, even better than I expected. Hopefully we'll be able to do a lot more of those in the future. I mean, for me, I don't know how you feel, but at a minimum, I'd like to get at least one out a month and then move from there, depending on the demand. I've probably got six or eight people at least that have expressed interest,

maybe even more. If you guys are liking it, let Mike know. And that way we can add, I'm thinking we can do it twice a month. Yeah, I mean, whether it's on Facebook, email, Twitter, I just reach out to me. Now, the one thing is, bring a case. Because I've had a lot of people say they want to do it, but they haven't offered up a case. So really kind of sit down and think about a good case that you know a lot about. In your hometown. Yeah, around your hometown and then come to us.

So the second thing is our new spinoff podcast, True Crime All the Time, Unsolved. debuted and it was a huge success right off the bat, which was unbelievable. I just feel like all the people that listened to this podcast really came through for us and jumped over and downloaded that one. That one's still really new, but hopefully everybody likes it. We're getting good reviews. Absolutely. Jenny Carreary is an amazing woman and she did an excellent job of helping us break down

her. incredible identical twin sisters unsolved case you know if you have not checked that out and listen to that episode you've got to listen to it because I mean number one it's a heartbreaking case but number two you've got how many times

you're going to have an identical twin sister who's there to fill in and give you all the details I mean that that was just amazing exactly so check that out and subscribe to the true crime all the time unsolved podcast if you haven't. Check out our website, as always, True Crime All the Time.com. Find all of our social media contact info. While you're there, check out the Patreon page. Gibby and I are constantly adding new content to that page. And you can support the show on

Patreon for as little as $2 a month. All right, Gibby. That's enough of the housekeeping. Let's get into this crazy case of Donald Harvey. This is going to be bizarre. I might be talking lightly when I say a crazy case. Right. I mean, you know, what's jumped out to me was you look at the guy. He and by all accounts, he was a, you know, kind of like a little mild mannered, almost meek looking nurse. But he becomes known as the angel of death. Yep.

And racks up a victim total that depending on who you believe. Yeah, who you believe could range anywhere from 37 all the way up to, you know, at one point he said 70. Right. So, I mean, either way, even on the ones he was convicted, he's a very prolific serial killer. Yeah, especially as we dig into this and find out his methods and reasonings behind some of this. And one thing that's different about him is he basically used to. his job, right, as a nurse, to do most of his killing.

But the one thing, you've got to see a picture of this guy, and we'll have pictures up on all of our social media outlets. This is, to me, the proverbial don't judge a book by its cover. I mean, would you agree? Oh, absolutely. And I think that's why he was so successful for such a long time is because you would never. he didn't look like a serial killer no no he didn't you know that that's why my motto is trust no one and assume everyone is a serial killer yeah somebody meme that because i think that'd be cool

i'm sure jordan or somebody would be on it pretty fast somebody get on that so let's start off i got a soundbite of an interaction between donald harvey and a reporter and just i just want to give you I just want you to be able to hear what Donald Harvey sounds like. Did you want to kill me? No, no, no, no. At other plans. What were they? Like the Indians used to do the settlers.

Tined out on the desert. He said, I fantasized about taking you out and tying you down on top of an ant hill and pouring honey all over you and letting the ants eat you. alive. And I'm looking him in the eye at this point. And his eyes are dead. And I know he means it. Every so often, as a species, we produce a monster.

I was looking into the eyes of a monster who wanted to kill me. So what you hear in the beginning is Donald Harvey. Sounds like he's just taking a hit off of a helium blow. Yeah, sure did, didn't it? It's got a very, very strange voice. kind of goes with his strange look, I think. Right. And then what you're hearing later is the reporter.

Yeah, I just, I wanted to play that kind of towards the beginning to give the listeners some frame of reference of, you know, they've probably already seen the pictures because we'll put those out ahead of time. It's, it's kind of like Gomer Pyle

gone serial killer. A little bit. Or Gomer Pyle just took a hit off of a helium balloon. something like that. It's a weird voice. You know, as always, let's start with the background. So Donald Harvey is born in Butler County, Ohio in 1952. Gibby, for you and me, Butler County is very close.

Very close, yeah. Not far away from us at all. But Donald doesn't stay in Ohio very long because his parents moved to Boonville, Kentucky, which is a small community near the Appalachian Mountains. you know in interviews that I saw his mother whose name was Goldie she stated that Donald was brought up in a very loving environment and Donald was you know just this great kid a very good boy and the principal of his elementary school backed that up as well yeah it said that he attended this elementary school for eight years so you know that's got to be a pretty small community. Right. So this principal was quoted as saying, Donnie was a very special child. He was always clean and well dressed and his hair trimmed neatly. She went on and said, you know, he was a very happy child, very sociable, very well liked by other children. In other words, Gibbs,

she just never saw anything out of the ordinary with Donald Harvey. Yeah. He was a good student too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When he gets into high school. But that's not the whole story. No. Because, you know, both you and I digging a little deeper found a lot of information,

what I shouldn't say a lot, found some information about some very traumatic experiences that he has as a child. And, you know, we go back and talk about that's become a report. repeating theme. Right. Right. In these podcasts. Exactly.

It is. I mean, so we know that his uncle and his uncle's friend would abuse him. And this started at the age of four. So we kind of know what that does. But even before that, even before that, his father dropped him on his head at six months old. Before his little soft spot thing had fully fully. formed. And we've talked about that before. Head, head trauma as a youngster and how that plays into, you know, later actions by some of these killers. Right. These are more than coincidences

that we keep doing these podcast episodes and things that come up are head trauma, abuse, traumatic experiences. It's not, it's not just a coincidence. Right. You know. So, dropped to six months old. At five years old, he falls off of a truck and has like a 12 centimeter long gash in the back of his head. And so that's like two separate occasions. Traumatic brain injuries probably. And then like you talked about this abuse, you know, at the age of four by the uncle on his mother's side. Right. And then a year later, another abuse, sexual abuse starts happening by an

older neighbor. So, I mean, he's not being abused by one person. He's being abused by two separate people. And the one other thing I read before, I want to talk about the abuse a little bit more, but there's a lot of things I read that said he had a happy childhood and, you know, his mom said good things about him. But then you find some interviews that talked about, you know, his mom bringing over strange men a lot when his dad was not around. And he saw a lot of this. So, you know, I think he went through a lot of crazy stuff as a child.

But let's get back to, to the sexual abuse because we know that has to, that had to have played a big factor. Oh, it had to. but one of the craziest parts about it is both of these relationships i shouldn't call them a relationship it's sexual abuse both both of these sexual uh abuse cases they go on until donald is 20 years old he's a full grown man by the time this ends i don't know if you read this gib or what your take on it is but in later interviews, Donald Harvey would say that by the age of 11 or 12, I forget which one, but he started

to become, and I almost hesitate to say this because people are going to get pissed, but he said this. He started to become more of a participant in these interactions. Well, maybe that was his way to get through them. I don't know. You just never, you know, you've. His exact quote was if his uncle was going to have fun, he was going to have fun too. Yeah.

That's pretty. And he was, he was gay. Yeah. And I assume that maybe this is about the time or at some point during this time is when he probably realized that he, that he was gay. But that one really stuck with me where, you know, you're talking about a kid at 11 or 12. I mean, number one, shouldn't be put in a spot where he's being sexually abused at all. But number two, he's later claiming that at this point in his life, he was starting to be a willing participant. And, you know, you can look at a lot of people that abuse other people. And if you

go back in their history, you find that a good amount of those. people were abused when, right? When they were kids also. So the cycle just the cycle continues. But I did want to point that out. I mean, it was, I couldn't find him saying that on tape, but I read that in several different places.

But he's got all kind of things going on. Oh, he does. But you can't tell me, just the stuff we've talked about already didn't, didn't warp his mind somehow. It had to have messed him up. He would also later say, in interviews when he was older that he liked the fact that the older neighbor who was abusing

him would give him money when they, quote, played around. So, you know, as we know, he did a lot of interviews later after. Because he even talks to an interview later about for 18 years, people controlled his life, right, controlled what he did. And then finally, he decided to take control of the outcome of his own destiny. and that's kind of down the road we're headed. Yep. So, I mean, we'll just run through a little bit more of background.

I mean, like you said, he got A's and B's in high school, but he dropped out pretty early. Right. He didn't stay in high school long at all. Yeah, which is kind of another, you know, similar thing that we've seen with a few other serial killers. Yeah. He got A's and B's with probably what was little effort. So I'm saying he probably was average to above average intelligence. I guess he got bored with school and he ends up dropping out.

And he moved to Cincinnati just down the road from us. And he ends up taking a job at a factory. So he's laid off from this plant in 1970. And it's right at this time where his mom calls him and says, hey Donny Donnie you got to come back home to Kentucky because your grandfather's sick. I don't know why I said Donnie twice, but I did. And so Harvey's spending so much time with his grandfather at Marymont Hospital, which I think is a Catholic hospital.

I think it is. Because the nuns, they start to get to know him. He's in there all the time visiting. and they eventually ask him if he wants to work there as an orderly. This is where this story just is so crazy with so many twists and turns. But here you've got an 18-year-old kid who's an, they've asked him to be an orderly. No problem.

He starts work the next day. But what's he doing as an orderly? He's changing bedpans. That seemed normal. Right. And then it talked about him inserting catheters and passing out medication. That didn't seem normal to me at all. Yeah.

I don't know back then if they were in Kentucky, if that was, you know, they didn't really have a lot of the, what's the regulations in place? You know, because I can't imagine that it'd be okay for someone with no training, nurses aid or I don't even know if it's, That would have to be an RN or a LPN. Oh, well, nowadays, yeah. To put a catheter in because of infection and stuff like that can occur. Right. I mean, 1970, to me, doesn't seem like that long. I mean, it is a long time ago, but it doesn't seem like that long ago.

It's not the Stone Age. No, but you've got an 18-year-old kid with no medical training, and you're saying, here's a catheter, go stick it, you know. 40-some years ago, so a lot of, a lot have changed. Go stick this in Mr. Johnson's. Johnson? Who-ha. be Mr. Johnson's Johnson.

Yeah, that would be. Mr. Johnson's Johnson. Now, I mean, we're making light of it, but it's the fact of, it just, that blew me away to think that

here's an 18 year old kid and they're saying, do this, and they're giving him access to all this medication. Sure. Yeah. That today would,

you know, I'm sure it was controlled substances. Oh, and absolutely. Today, I mean, I think the nurse, they have to sign it out.

Oh, they got like these safes and you got to put in a code. Right. So, So when I read that, it was just, it's crazy. But this is the point where things start to turn dark, right? Because it's only two months into this job at the hospital when Donald Harvey commits

his first murder. And I don't know that we'll be able to talk about all of these murders because there's so damn many that he committed. But, you know, the first one, Donald's working in the evening shift. and he goes in to check on this stroke victim named Logan Evans. And according to Harvey, obviously in later interviews, the man rubbed shit on Harvey's face. So he rubbed feces all over him.

Yeah. Yeah. A.k.a. shit. Yeah. But this really angered Donald. Probably lost control. Yeah. He loses control and he ends up smothering

this Mr. Evans with a sheet of blue plastic and a pillow, some kind of combination of the two. What was freaky was it listed, it said afterwards he listened to the man's heartbeat with a stethoscope. Now, why this guy even has a stethoscope? I don't know. But he listened to his heartbeat until it stopped. That's freaky. That's freaky. But I also think it's freaky that afterwards.

that he cleans up the patient, gets him in the shower, you know? I mean, to me, that's freaky too, that he goes to that. But that's his, right, that's how he's covering up. Right. So he cleans up the patient. He takes a shower. Yeah. But there's, obviously, there's feces and, you know, all that.

But you're right. And then he just goes, he walks out and he tells the nurses, you know, what, not what happened, but that the man has passed. has passed away. And no one questioned. There was no questions. It was like a normal event. Oh,

yeah. That happens. Right. Now, we talked about Harvey being called the angel of death. And he was given the nickname Angel of Death. And he would always claim after he was caught that he was a, he wasn't a serial killer as much as he was a mercy killer.

You know, he killed people that were suffering and this and that. But obviously, this is no mercy killer. This guy was not dying. He wasn't putting this guy of his misery. He just got really upset and killed him. Yeah.

And we're going to see that in some other cases. Now, there were cases where he did, you know, put folks out, I don't want to say, put folks out of their misery, but people that were suffering really bad and probably closer to death and he killed them. this wasn't anything like that. The second person, and this was, I think the very next day,

and correct me if I'm wrong, because you know, you and I always have our own notes. We do our own research, but. I think it was within a few weeks, but. I had the very next day,

he accidentally killed somebody. Really? Because by using the wrong catheter, size. Okay. And so this one probably was not even. So the intent was not there. Yeah.

He didn't even mean to kill. this guy. Right. He was just bad at his job. Right. He was an 18 year old kid that shouldn't have been using a catheter on people in the first place. And then like you said, a couple weeks go by.

And then I think he does commit his first mercy kill. I have it as Elizabeth Wyatt. Apparently she had been telling him she was ready to die. And she told him that she wished she could die. so he turned her oxygen supply very low. And in about four hours, you know, she was dead and a nurse, a nurse founder. And we're going to see a lot of different ways that Donald Harvey killed people.

Right. But oxygen tanks was a big one, right? He could control the flow of oxygen. The flow of it. He could shut it completely off. But so far, so he's killed a couple of. people, maybe one guy by accident, if I have my facts straight, nobody has suspected anything. No.

I mean, one of the things that we have to talk about is he is in an environment where, number one, he has complete access to patients. And a lot of times he's alone with, right? He's alone with patients. Right. And these are a lot of them very sick people who, could die on their own possibly. So there's a lot of opportunity for him to kill

and for people not to question it, I guess is what I'm getting at. I mean, for a killer, he's in a perfect, perfect environment. And I think after these first couple, he realizes that, hey, nobody's going to catch me doing this. They haven't even questioned. Nobody's even questioning the fact that these people died. So he starts to ramp up. And I think within less than a year, he kills, what, 12 to 14 people, give or take.

Yeah. At this Kentucky hospital alone in less than a year. And, you know, we don't have to talk about every one of them. But again, a couple more he killed by accident. you know, one that was very significant and for sure that I wanted to talk about happened in July of 1970. So this is still 1970, right? Right. That we're talking about.

And Donald Harvey killed a man named Ben Gilbert. The reason why this one was significant was because it was his first premeditated murder. It wasn't because he got angry. it wasn't because he was bad at his job and accidentally did something he shouldn't have. This was, and not a mercy killing. Ben and Donald get in a fight. And somehow, I don't know how,

because I don't know how old this Ben character was. 81. Yeah, he's 81 years old. I knew he was older. I wasn't sure of his exact age. Yeah. But he beats the shit out of him. Hits him over the head with a bad pad.

Right. knocks him out. Yeah. Bed pan to the face. So knocks Donald Harvey out, who by all accounts, was not a very big guy. I guess he thought he was a burglar or something like that. And he got scared and hit him over the head and knocked him out. So anyway, obviously that made Donald Harvey mad.

And he waited until later that night when Mr. Gilbert was asleep. And he goes in. And again, he's, you. using the catheter and he used a what i read was a female sized number 20 now that means nothing to me because but our nurses out there will know what that means if you're a nurse i'm sure you will instead of a smaller number 18 for men that's that's exactly how it read the research what he did then was was neck was crazy and i don't know if you if you want to talk about that what about the coating Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's, yeah. But so he, so he stuck a coat hanger through the catheter, which resulted in the puncture, and then the infection would set in as a result of that. It's all disturbing. I don't know. You can't make this stuff up. Like if you were writing a book and you said,

I'm going to write this into act number two, this kind of stuff is hard to make up. And what, the guy dies, what, two, three days? days afterwards because of the result of the infection. Right. That occurs in his, what is a bladder and his bow. The coat hanger went in and punctured his bladder or bow and,

you know, he ended up, you know, going into shock and a coma and, and he died, I think, like you said, two or three or four days later.

But all Harvey does is take out the coat hanger, switch the catheters back to the right size. Right. and nobody ever Nobody thinks of it They don't question it Yeah nobody ever says a word Again he kills

You know the next person With the oxygen tank method The person after that he killed He didn't just didn't turn the oxygen on This one he said He wanted to end the patient struggles Because they were having a hard time breathing But ultimately the guy ends up dying

of a, you know, massive heart attack. So then one, I think there's one more after that with the faulty oxygen tank. And this is, this one, you know, he commented that this lady smelled bad. And that was one of the reasons why he wanted her dead. He wanted her dead. You know, this lady was suffering from leukemia. Now, was she suffering? I mean, she was suffering from leukemia, but was she physically suffering?

I'm sure she was. Sure. And she could have, the smell could have been the chemo. It could have been, yeah. I mean, who knows? But it most likely could have been the chemo drugs. It could have been a lot of different things. But he decided on his own to end her suffering.

I guess the point I was trying to make was, I don't know how much she was suffering. You know, it's like a play on word. She was suffering from leukemia for sure. Right. But was she suffering to the point where she wanted to die? I don't think she was telling people that. I think he...

He assumed that himself. He didn't like the way she smelled and... Decided to end her life. Yeah. So this one was... He first tried to kill her with the whole plastic and pillow method that he had used in his very first murder. But at some point, I guess another nurse or somebody comes in and interrupts him. I don't know what they thought he was doing, what they saw him doing.

But again, nobody ever connects him with any of this or reports him. or right but he has to stop because this person interrupts him so he has to wait a little bit and then he has to use the faulty oxygen tank method but ultimately kills the woman that way now we move on to December and I want to talk about Margaret Harrison a little bit because this is where by my accounts Gibb this is the first one where he started messing around with pain medication. Yeah, he's getting into the pharmaceuticals now. Yeah. So it's almost like, you know, was he bored? Was he thinking of different ways to, to try to murder people? I don't know. You can't, you can't get in this guy's head. Everything that I read said that, you know,

he's been evaluated a number of times throughout the years. I mean, he's sitting not very far from where I live right now. You know, it's a, what, 20 minute drive. Exactly. From where we are in the studio to where this guy's new home is. Where his home is, yeah.

But at this point, I think he's experimenting and he's using demoral, morphine, codeine. Here's another one where he gives, you know, this woman, all these drugs.

And he's sitting there and he's monitoring her pulse, just like he did with the guy where he was checking his heart rate with the stethoscope, he's monitoring her pulse and waiting for it to drop to zero. I mean, it's just morbid. I mean, he's doing this and, you know, he's, to me, I just find it so hard to understand how nobody knew what was going on. That's just, that's what blows me away. Well, you know, not, because I don't want people to get bored,

but we'll just go through, you know, smothered with a pillow, used a faulty oxygen tank again, faulty gas tank again, overdose of morphine. I mean, this only takes us to March. Yeah. We said he started work when. So it took, that takes us to March of 1971? Yeah, we're in March of 1971, approximately 10 months or so.

And he's already killed more than one of them. month. Yeah. And that's not strange? I think they'd have some check them about. I mean, I know people are going to pass away in the hospitals and nursing homes and things like that. Right. And they do. A lot of people do. But it just seems, I would thought that someone would say, man, we're losing a lot of people when. And every time we lose one, Donald Harvey's involved. This weird looking 18 year old Donald Harvey is, was in the room. Exactly. Right before they died or something. You would think somebody would close. in. I don't know. But that brings us up to March and this is when he leaves. He decides to

leave the hospital. I mean, there's a reason he leaves, right? March 31st, 1971. What I have account of is that he's, he's drunk and he's disorderly. But he's already left the hospital because his last day was on March 27th. Okay. So this is after he leaves the hospital. Yeah, what you're getting to his according to my account his last day was March 27 okay and then you go ahead with the March 31st because I think that's a very interesting yeah I mean he's he's he's he's so he's drunken disorderly and he was arrested for burglary and why he's being questioned about the crime starts babbling and coherently about how he committed some murders I think he said he killed I killed 15 people at the hospital and I'm guessing it was so

bizarre and out there that the police probably just thought this guy's on something yeah he's probably you know this guy's drunk yeah he don't believe him yeah who would kill 15 people but they also don't check it out probably right do they i you know i don't know because they could have easily found out that he worked at the hospital and they could have looked into it a little bit i mean they questioned him for quite a while and and but at the end of that they just there's a nothing that they can find. Yeah, they just don't believe him. Yeah, they just don't believe him.

Or can't find something to corroborate. A few weeks later, he goes on trial for the, you know, the Berkeley charges, and, you know, he pleads guilty, and, you know, they reduce it down to petty theft. I think he just pays a fine and walks away from that, doesn't he? Yeah. And then I think around that time, then he thinks about getting into the military. And he does. What won't you say, won't you tell us?

I mean, he joins. He joins the United States Air Force. service there for less than a year. And he gets his discharge in, well, a year later, March of 72. They don't really say why he was discharged. But the rumor at the time, right, is that, you know, his, what you call him, commander superiors, you know, they learned of some confessions to the Kentucky police. And at that time, they just did not want to deal with any of this.

the future with him. So they went ahead and released him from the military. I think that was one of the reasons. And one of the other things that I read was that while he was in the Air Force, he had tried to kill himself. Yeah, depression with an overdose of NyQuil. And he tried to kill him to commit suicide a bunch. And then you're diving into some of his mental issues, right? He obviously, you know had had some severe depression and and some different type of i don't know if it's what type of mental illness he had but he had severe depression for sure absolutely i did i think he at one point he tried to set a fire in a bathroom of an empty apartment building and just sit there and affixiate himself and he couldn't do it and i think that was before he even joined

the Air Force. I think that might have been back when you were talking about when he got the burglary charge or right around that time. But after he gets out of the Air Force, he tries to kill himself with an overdose of a couple of different drugs. All of this, after he gets out of the Air Force, his behavior just is crazy. And it all ultimately leads him to being sent to the mental ward of the VA hospital. Yeah. For treatment. I mean,

I think his parents at that point just say, hey, you're, you can't stay here anymore. Summer of 72, right? Yeah. So he goes there, right?

And he talks, unable to control his inner demons. His frog, not frog demon. He didn't say he had frog demons like BTK, but so, but he's got these inner demons that are speaking to them and unable to control them.

He's got demons. All right. So, I mean, but there's another thing, right? We talk about the abuse as a child. We talk about, you know, you talk about head trauma.

Now we're getting into demons and possible mental illness and depression. I mean, there's, it all ties in. Yeah, he's got a lot of stuff. So he stays in the mental war until, I think it's like from July of 72 to August, end of August of that, of that, year. But then he minted himself again a few weeks, a few weeks later, right? Because he tried to commit suicide again at the hospital. And, you know, it didn't work. And then they had to place them in restraints at the mental hospital. I know that was around a few weeks. And then they ended up doing 21 electronic, electro-shock therapy treatments on them. Yeah, this is back when they used to do

a lot of electroshock therapy. Yeah. When they thought that stuff... When they thought it worked? Worked, I guess. Yeah. He went through 21 of those.

And then it was October that year, mid-October that he was released from the hospital. So... And what's he do after that? Well... Because I'm going to laugh about this. Well, first, at the time he was released,

don't forget, his mom, Goldie, was really disappointed with the hospital for releasing him because he didn't, she didn't think her son was ready to be released. Right. But yeah. So just just a few months after getting his life back in order, right, he starts working as a nurse aide. He gets a damn job at a hospital. Cardinal Hill, right?

So I don't know. We talked about this in another episode about. how are these people, we got so many people out here that can't find a job. Right. But this guy's killing people. Yeah, I'm guessing back then they didn't do a lot of employment searches, right? He just, I mean, he just got out of the mental ward of the VA hospital and goes and is able to, you know, get this job at Cardinal Hill. And then, and he works at like two or three different hospitals.

I was going to say at that time, he's working part time at Cardinal Hill. he's working part-time at a couple of different ones yeah yeah lexington another lexington good samaritan hospital and you know well first of all let's say he doesn't kill anybody during this time no right he's he's at two or three different hospitals i don't know what's going on but somehow he's able to keep the urge well that's what i was getting ready to say there's speculation that he did not have the same type of access, unfettered access to patients that he had when he was at Merrimount. Right. And that's why he kept moving around.

Oh, to see if he can find. He was trying to get another job where he would be able to get that. But again, he doesn't have a nursing degree. He's not a nurse. No. He has no medical training whatsoever other than the 10 months he spent at, Marymount as an orderly. Right.

But I think that's, you know, there was, there was two things. You can say he was able to keep it at bay or you can say he never had the opportunities that he had while he was at the at the Marymount to carry out these things that he wanted to do. You know, one of the things I want to talk about is, you know, we mentioned that Donald Harvey is a homosexual. but he had a number of relationships. And it seemed like he had no problem forming relationships, keeping relationships. I read that he had, you know, one that lasted 10 months. He had one that lasted five years in which they even lived with, you know, this other guy.

And so the reason I bring it up is he's not alone. No. during this time, part of this time frame that we're talking about. He's not the loner in the basement. No. Type of individual. Yeah, he's social. Yeah.

He's out there, you know, forming relationships and keeping them. So, but I did want to bring up to relationships because that's something that'll play come into play a little bit later. I don't know, Gibbs. I think we're getting up to, you know, 1970. and Harvey moving back to Cincinnati. And this is where, you know, he gets a job at the, is it the Cincinnati VA Medical Hospital?

Yeah, he's working the night shift there. And this is where he would spend, I think, the next 10 years. And he would ultimately murder at least 15 patients. So he's a nursing assistant, right? He goes there as a nursing assistant. Yes. And does some, I mean, he does a few different things. I mean, he's working in housekeeping.

He's working somehow he gets a job as the cardiac catheterization tech. He's always using a catheter for some reason. And then he's also, you know, assisting with some autopsies. So, which I think he probably felt at home there. Well, eventually, I mean, we'll probably talk about it, but he becomes like the morgue supervisor at some point. Oh my gosh, really. Yeah.

This is later on. down the road, but, but he starts killing people pretty quickly because I think at, at the, at this VA hospital, he finds that he's got the access, right? So I think all that bullshit about being able to keep his demons in check. That's why I really think that was bull. Yeah. I, I, lean more towards the fact that he still had the urge and the only reason why he didn't unleash it, is because he couldn't. He just, you know, because he wasn't killing people on the streets, right? He, to this point, he had only killed people that were weak in the hospital and sick already.

And maybe that was due to his nature. I don't know. Maybe he was too afraid to or just had no desire to try to kill anybody other than up to this point. Right. Here we come. Right. Yeah. we're in so now he's in Ohio again right off the bat he's using that old reduce the oxygen flow

method he kills a man but was never indicted for that one and that that's why we say we don't know what the number is we ultimately know how many murders and and um things he was charged with and and confess to. But he also confesses at some point to a much, much larger number. He does. You know, at some point,

there were three or four different people that died in the ward. And later, Donald will say that he thinks he had something to do with their deaths, but he doesn't remember for sure. Did he kill these four people? Maybe. And it's just because he had killed so many people, he couldn't remember.

I don't know, because one of the things I read, Mike, was that, and I think they, he kept a diary. Yeah, he kept a journal. A pretty meticulous diary of, with notes on each of his crimes. Right. So for him to say that he wasn't sure if he had anything to do with it, I doubt, it doesn't sound like. I think, I mean, you don't keep detailed notes on diary. Right?

On some, right? I think you keep him on all because you're trying to track your, his and his mind, you know, he's becoming this. And maybe going back and reliving it and reading the details. Sure. And maybe that gives him a rush as well.

Just like the BTK. Yeah, but he's not going to kill four people and somehow forget to write in his diary the. And it's pretty important. I mean, he hides it in a, for I understand he hit it behind a picture frame and that's where, you know,

the police eventually find that diary. but yeah so I I definitely think he knew how many he knew that he did what he did to each of these people I think that too we'll jump to 1980 because we got to move forward in time there's so much information here he begins he begins dating a guy on and off and after a fight Harvey retaliates against this person by putting arsenic in his ice cream. And this was a significant act because it was the first person outside of the hospital

that Donald had tried to harm. Right? Up until this time, he'd only done things to people that were in the hospital. And keep in mind, for all these years, somehow he was able to

amass tons of arsenic and cyanide and things like that. That definitely comes in later Yeah. So, I mean, he's finding ways to bring this stuff home outside of the hospital. Oh, yeah. He had to have been stealing it little by little or maybe chunk by chunk, however, this whole time. He starts a very significant relationship in late 1980 with a man named Carl. They move in together and this, you know, relationship would go on for. a while, but it would also cause a lot of friction. At one point, Donald finds out that Carl's been going to the park every Monday and fooling around with other men. And he starts feeding Carl

small doses of arsenic to make him sick on Sunday so that he can't go to the park on Monday and play around. I mean, this guy's, it's just, it's devious. Right. I mean, he must have been just thinking devious thoughts all the time. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was. I can't make sense of it. I wish I could, but I guess you'd have to be in that state to be able to make sense of something.

In that same time, right, in the 80s, this is how his temper was, right? He got in an argument with his neighbor. And I'm trying to remember, Helen. Helen Metzker. Yeah. Yeah. So he gets an argument. with her and he he laces one of her beverages with hepatitis right he gets a hepatitis serum i don't know how

he gets his animals on that i don't want to i don't know why i'm laughing because that's not funny no but so you know you know she nearly dies from that and then uh so this was this was a different neighbor and then he gets in a fight with helen and he puts arsenic in one of her pies and then she dies a week later at the hospital. I mean, so, man. And the one, the one you were talking about to hepatitis B, the only reason I laughed, and it's not funny, the only reason that he did that is because he thought somehow in his mind that this woman, and this was a woman, was trying to split up his relationship

with Carl. Yeah. Now, how this woman's trying to, I don't know how, but that's what he thought. and like you said, poison her with hepatitis. Hepatitis B and I read even he even stole like some type of try to infect her with AIDS.

Like he stole some blood that was infected with AIDS. So HIV infected blood. Was HIV positive? Yeah. So I mean he's just and first of all, how's he getting all this stuff out of the hospital? Yeah, I don't know.

Cyanide, arsenic, hepatitis B, vials of HIV positive blood. And there's no in between. It's like if he's upset with you, you're dead. Yeah. It's not like I'm upset with you. I'm going to yell at you. Can we sit down and, you know, talk about this? You know, yeah, I mean, he just goes right off, right off the edge. So we talked about Diane. You, you, you went over the Helen Metzger murder, which, you know, it was a big one. That take that, that, that took us into 83. And this is where he kills Carl's father. That's, bizarre. And he tries to kill the mom too, right? He tries to take care of Margaret, but he's unsuccessful with her and lucky for her that, you know, that he's, you know, he breaks it off with Carl. Because I think she would have been, she would have been killed as well. Yeah. So he kills Carl's father

with arsenic. And then he kills Carl's brother-in-law. That one I read was an accident. I guess Donald had been using some wood alcohol to remove adhesive labels, but he had the solution in some type of vodka bottle. And when Carl's brother-in-law came over, he poured him a drink from this vodka bottle and this guy was sick for a week and he suffered a heart attack. So may or may not have been an accident. You don't know with this guy. You don't know which ones are real. Looking at his past, you would, you know, you would think they're all real. Yeah. Right. I don't know, yeah, exactly. If nobody, if he didn't have his, the track record he did, maybe you say, oh, that was an accident. He did, you know, but I just assume that he means to

kill everybody. Let's jump to, um, and that was 84. So that moved us up to 84 when, when he killed Carl's brother-in-law. And, you know, he, he, he kills a few other people, but of note, he killed an ex-boyfriend because as Donald claimed this James Paluso had asked Donald to help him out if he ever became unable to care for himself. So I guess, you know, this James Paluso was ill and Donald makes him an adacery with arsenic and some pudding with arsenic. He's just got arsenic and cyanide everywhere. I think he just keeps in his pocket in case he needs it. But again, I can't, I don't know whether to believe him or not. Now, it said his death had been expected because he was having a bunch of cardiac problems.

But so there was no autopsy performed, right? So, you know, maybe one of the reasons why he's still doing some things and not getting caught. And then in 85, he kills again over Carl. he kills a neighbor Ed Wilson Wilson apparently believed that Carl was cheating him on his utility bills so so how'd he kill him Mike he put arsenic into Ed Wilson's Pepto-Bismol. Wow. Again, let me just get into my pocket full of right arsenic carry that little arsenic with me. I mean it's just and again I don't want to make light of it because I feel bad for

these victims. But at the same time, and Mr. Wilson probably suffered because it took him like five days to die. So that was probably an agonizing five days of this arsenic poisoning. You know, I don't know. And this is where I think right after this is when I talked to you earlier about he's somehow promoted to Morg supervisor. I don't know why.

I don't know what qualifications he had. or what qualifications you need at that in 1985. But it would seem to me that you would need more than what Donald Harvey would have possessed. Right, exactly. Because unless he had gone back to school, which I didn't read anything about him. And how could he have? He technically didn't finish high school. Yeah, so I don't know how he got promoted up to change.

Yeah. Maybe just well liked or. Or he was killing. just so good. I really don't know. Right. There was something really big that happens not too long after this in July of 85. And that's when, you know, he's leaving work because right now he's at the VA in Cincinnati.

He's leaving work. The security guards notice that Donald's kind of acting suspiciously. and they search his gym bag and find out that he's he's carrying a 38 caliber of pistol. He's also got some hypodermic needles, surgical scissors and gloves, a cocaine spoon, which I'm not sure how is different from a regular spoon, various medical texts. Here's the big one. She's got two occult books, which we haven't talked about yet. Yeah, but that's, to me.

biography on a serial killer. Yeah. That's the big one of me. I didn't know if you were, there was a lot of stuff about him and the occult that I kind of left out. He was kind of dabbling in the occult. He wanted to, he tried to get people to let him participate in some of these. Yeah, I think it comes up again, you know, in his life about the black magic.

Yeah. And at one point he joined the. neo-Nazi national socialist party. So, I mean, he was doing just a lot of weird stuff. Trying to fit in somewhere, I guess. Yeah, and later on, he would claim that he wasn't a sympathizer of the neo-Nazis, but he was there gathering information for his friends that wanted to try to destroy the party. This guy's just...

This biography that he's got on this serial killer. What do you know about him? I mean, he's not really one of the ways. well-known ones. No, no. And actually, his name was like Charles Sobara. I wasn't sure how you pronounced it. Sobraj.

Sobrage. Yeah, I left it out because I didn't want to mispronounce it and get called a dumbass. But now that you've brought it up and I said, and I've had to try it. Right. No, I actually enjoy it when people call me a dumbass. Yeah. In social media. It makes me happy.

Yeah. So what do they do with them? When they do it in fun. Yeah. So he gets caught with all this, but. That's the crazy. as the craziest part of this whole thing. They only fine them 50 bucks for carrying the firearm.

Right. And as far as his job, they don't even fire him. No, I mean, he's given the option to resign. Yeah. They let him resign.

So it's not on his, he doesn't go on his work record. But that, that's the key, right? We keep saying, how is this, this guy who keeps having all these weird scrapes with the law and is just kind of

flying by? How does he keep getting job after job? this is how you would get. Right. Because these things aren't following him because instead of the hospital doing what they probably should have done, which is fire him there. I don't know what evidence they had, but in reading it, he had a lot of crazy stuff with him. And he had a gun, which that by itself should have been grounds for.

So surely at this point, he's done working at hospitals, right? You didn't call me Shirley, right? No. I said, surely at this point. Please don't call me, surely. Yeah, yeah. So at this point, you would think he'd be done working on hospitals. He should have been.

Me and you, right? And not giving up our professions, but in the professions that we're in, if we were to do some of these things, and now granted, we're talking, this is 30 years later. Sure. But even back then, I think being fired for that reason, that probably should have been enough to keep him from getting a job. in the same city. Yeah.

Because that's what he does. He just goes to Drake Memorial, which is still in Cincinnati. He really should have been blacklisted from not only in the city, but from the industry. Yeah. And today he would, I would think. I could see back then maybe you moved to Phoenix, Arizona. They don't know your record, maybe. But he's just across the city.

And I don't know how far Drake is from the VA, but it doesn't matter. It's the same city. All right, Gibby. So at this point, we're up to where Harvey starting his new job at Drake Memorial in Cincinnati. Yeah. Again, no suspicions raised about the reasons why he left his previous job. So really quality background checks. Yeah.

Even if they did a background check, would they have gotten a hit because he wasn't fired? That's true. Right? He agreed to resign. Yeah. So legally, what could, you know, his former hospital even have said? And he's always been good at doing this. He works in, he gets into their system by coming in as part-time, right? And then he works his way into a full-time position. He's done that at a couple of them where he comes in his part-time,

probably taking the stuff that nobody really wants to do, the really crappy hours, and he works himself into a full-time job. Why do you think he does that? Well, I think it's to keep suspicion down. What do you think? That plus is it also because of what we talked about, is he, you know, doing part-time to see what he can get into? Oh, absolutely.

More so that. I think he's getting in. He's scanning. He's taking inventory. Yeah, taking like a lay of the land figuring out. What can I get? What kind of access do I have? What kind of freedom are they going to let me have?

have, yeah, I agree. So then, I mean, it's not even four days later. He kills another patient the exact same way. Seven days later, I mean, these, this is, you know, he's speeding up. He's going fast. Yeah, yeah, he's on a roll. Yeah. And again, nobody is so far as putting anything together. This time he killed a man by putting rat poison in his pudding, died of an apparent heart attack. So one thing I've taken away from all this is don't eat the pudding in hospitals or nursing home. That's what I'm taking away. One of the things. I respect nurses.

My mom's a nurse. Absolutely. Yeah. And if she's listening to this, which she better be. Hi, Mom. She's a great nurse. But this guy was scary. Yeah.

And there's a couple reasons for that. It's because I think for me is the trust that you have to place in nurses and doctors and I mean and was he technically a nurse or was he a nurse's aide yeah I don't think he was ever a nurse I think he's a nurse's aide right and there's great nurses aid out there but but I mean anybody in the hospital because you're in a comp usually in some sure situation they've got access to you're in a compromise date right so you're putting your trust in the whole hospital system I'll put it that one exactly and and obviously you can have somebody bad in any scenario.

Any industry, any, any type of work. You're going to have great people and you're always going to have your bad apples. So we're not trying to scare anybody away from hospitals or especially make. Yes, especially if I'm a patient anytime soon. I love you all. I'm going to get a call from my mom. Yeah, you will. Again, the next person, he does rat poison.

This was one day later. He is really, you know, he's really going fast. Now, on May 2nd, 1986, this is kind of a big deal because he's having a lot of relationship trouble with Carl. He's still with Carl. Carl's still there, huh? Yeah, Carl's still in the picture. But they've been having a lot of trouble. They're arguing a lot.

Donald has become paranoid that Carl is somehow out to get him, which is crazy if you think about it, because he's killing everybody and poisoning people that he thinks is out to get him. getting right he's out to get everybody but now he thinks carl's out to get him neighbors yeah but either way the two of them break up and then this is in may of 86 that very same day he kills a woman with cyanide three days later he gets an employee his employee evaluation he was rated as good on six out of the 10 criteria and acceptable on the other four. Okay. So, you know, he's middle of the road or halfway decent.

An average, an average review. Yeah, he got an average review. Didn't say anything about the fact that he'd been killing people. Right. About averaging about once every three days or so. He waits about about a month and then he kills an individual with arsenic. And then this is where it just starts to go. arsenic cyanide cyanide cyanide arsenic he's basically just going back and forth about

every week or two weeks he's killing somebody so he's racking up like 20 some people oh i mean it just it's crazy at this point in time something like that yeah so what do we say he started i just want to do the timeline he started drake in april of 86 so it's it's very similar to his last job in about 10 months, you know, he'd racked up 15, 20, 20 kills. 22. 20 some, yeah. It's a lot. That's a lot.

And like you said, it's cyanide is like his choice. It's a lot because it's, I mean, this is not a, and we may do this case at some point, but he's not a long-haul trucker who is picking up people. in different parts of the country in different jurisdictions. Right. This is a lot of people in a short period of time dying at one hospital of similar cause. I mean, they don't know it's cyanide, right? Right.

But it's heart related or whatever. But that's just a lot of people being checked out of a facility in a very short period of time when somebody knew just started working there. Yeah. You would think, and again, I don't know how many people in a given period of time. would die at a hospital like this. But it just seems like at some point, sooner than it did,

there would have been some suspicion raised. You would think. So now we get into like March of 87 and he kills a couple people. You know, he kills a man on the 6th of March and a woman on the 7th. So this is back to back. And he kills them both the same way. And it's using,

and I know I'm going to butcher this, but it's detach all is what I'm going to call it. I'll say decatol. Or deck decal. I like that. It might be it. But it's an adhesive remover and used with a claustomy bags.

Okay. So basically he fed both of these people this adhesive remover and somehow poisoned them or killed them that way. And how did he know that would kill him? I don't know. the man he actually fed it to him the woman put it through her one of her tubes as well as put some in her orange juice and so again he's just you know he went cyanide cyanide arsenic for a lot of the time and now he's just experimenting with weird yeah whatever he could find in the removers in the

medical cabinet which he doesn't have to because we know he's got enough cyanide to poison the whole hospital he's just he's just doing this for kicks at that this. Well, I mean, he's been doing this for kicks, but now he's just trying something different to see how it works. But now we're getting into the end, right? We're coming to the end of the Donald Harvey saga. This is his last kill. And it's a man named John Powell. We'll spend a little bit more time on this. And John Powell was brought into Drake Memorial. He had suffered severe head trauma from a motorcycle accident. And he was there quite a while. And he was there quite a while. He was in a coma. I think he was on a respirator for six, seven, eight months, something like that.

But Powell kept having bout after bout of pneumonia. And all the while, his wife is by his side. Doctors can't figure out what's going on. They can't seem to fight off this pneumonia. And eventually, Powell succumbs to this pneumonia dies. And the one thing, and I guarantee, that this is something Donald Harvey didn't think about, but under Ohio law, a motorcycle accident always has to have an autopsy. Because none of these other people, to my knowledge, had autopsies. They were either elderly or they had illnesses which didn't require. It didn't seem as suspicious that they died.

The pathologist, Dr. Lehman, he conducts the autopsy on John Perman. pal. And as soon as he makes the first incision, this smell of bitter almonds fills the room. Apparently, it's so strong. It's painful to the nose and it will almost knock you out. And so how bizarre is this, right? So what he smells in the scientific world, they say only 60% of humans can smell that. luckily he was one of them because it was somebody else that did that the 40 somebody in the 40 yeah they would have never knew that this guy was poisoned which is crazy when you think about it that this is such a strong smell yeah and an odor that they say can knock people out but only 60 percent of the people can smell it's either genetic you either have it or you don't have the ability

to smell it and in this case they actually even interview him and he talks about it and he talks about how you know lucky you know he was to be able to smell this so yeah because if he doesn't yeah it continues how how long does yeah i mean obviously we know this is the this is what brings down don't harvey but if it doesn't work out that way how many more years and how many more victims because you know he's not going to stop people like this don't just stop on the right And we know he loves cyanide, arsenic, all that stuff. Right. We know it's because it prevents the brain and the heart from getting oxygen.

And he takes some kind of perverse pleasure in watching. Like they've taken their last breath. Yeah. So anyway, Dr. Lehman knows right away it's cyanide. He sends it off to samples off to toxicology. It's confirmed that it's cyanide, you know, Cincinnati police departments, contacted and they homicide, they start,

they launch a full scale investigation. Now, what I read, Gibb and you tell me what you think, the first suspect was his wife. Which is normal. That is normal. Right. And she was the first suspect.

And that's what they do, right? I mean, if you showed up, you know, dead tomorrow, they're going to look at your wife as number one suspect. As well, they should. And probably me, number two. So,

But yeah, so that's what they do. And they go through that process with her. Yeah, I mean, of course, she denied it. Detectives ask her to take a polygraph, and she does, and she passes. Because obviously she didn't do it. And so their next step is they begin to take polygraphs from all the nurses and the medical assistance in the ward. And it just so happens that there's one person that calls in sick. on the day that they're scheduled to do this polygraph.

And that would be one Donald Harvey. Imagine that. Yeah. The police think that's odd. They look into it. They see that Harvey was a regular, he was regularly caring for Mr. Powell. So all of a sudden, you know, the antennas are up. So the police, they go pick him up for questioning.

And this is Saturday, March 7th, 1987. and they have Donald Harvey in the room and they're about ready to strap him up to a polygraph machine and instead of right before they're about ready to do it Harvey says I killed John Powell just straight out just straight out he said it was easy I just injected cyanide into the G tube and from all everything I read it was like Harvey was

he wasn't agitated he wasn't even nervous he was completely relaxed. Yeah. Again, kind of like BK, B.TK, right? Yeah, nonchalant. Like, just telling it like, this is, yeah, went in. Got a bagel. I got my coffee.

Got some arsenic out. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, if that were me and you, me or you, and we had done something. And we were getting, we were being interrogated by the police. I mean, I would be like, dripping sweat. Yeah. Covered in sweat.

Yeah. Nervous. Probably shaking. Right. But these people don't, they don't have that same mindset. I mean, their mind doesn't function the same way. So all in all, he confessed to, I think, 33 murders. Is that you had?

I do. Yeah. And that spans 17 years. But, you know, as the days would go by, that number would grow to 70. Yeah, it goes to 52 and then up to 70. Right. All the way up to 70. Police are skeptical.

They're concerned about his mental state, as they probably should be. Right. The guy just said, I killed 70 people. They have him checked out by a psychiatrist, and following that examination, the Cincinnati Prosecutor's Office makes the following statement. Donald Harvey is sane, competent, but is a compulsive killer. He builds up tension in his body, and so he kills people. that was the statement that they made right but yeah Harvey keeps saying it's mercy killing right right

and that's what he's telling his court appointed attorney the whole time uh he said pal was in pain he was breaking out in cold sweats I just kept thinking you know the guy's not going to gain better I just thought what I was doing was right which is such BS right and he he throws out some weird stuff right he talks about his fascination with black magic and Yeah, it's one thing we didn't dive into too much. There was a lot out there about him and the occult. I don't really think it had anything. I don't either.

I think it was more of his weirdness. Trying to throw people off and stuff. Yeah, because it didn't, it didn't, by everything I read, it didn't happen until after he had already started murdering. Right. He didn't murder because he was in. Yeah. Because he was into the occult.

I think he got into the occult because he was a weird little shit. That's just my own two cents. And I know you love this part. So the investigators, they go to his house. I guess up until a certain point, or right after he was caught, he had been telling them a lie about where he had gotten the cyanide from. You know, I don't know if he said he was getting it from the hospital each time or whatever. They go to his house, they open up a cupboard, and he's got 30 pounds of arsenic and cyanide.

Yeah. 30 pounds. That's a lot, man. So he must have just been taking it constantly because he was using it. The amount that he used to kill John Powell was a milligram. Yeah, so, I mean, he had enough there to kill thousands and thousands. I mean, he could have gone on forever. Yeah, it could have been a Jim Jones kind of a thing.

Ultimately, they strike a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to 24 hospital murders. Now, we know he killed a lot more people. This is in Ohio, right? Because right now he's dealing with... Yeah, just what's happened in Ohio. Cincinnati. Yeah.

But he pleads guilty to 24 hospital murders. Gets 20 years to life, I think, for each of those. Right. Oh, and then he gets one life sentence for that lady neighbor. The friend. Yeah, the neighbor lady that he thought was... Yeah, he put the arsenic in her pie. Yeah.

So he gets a life sentence for that as well. And, you know, I think they look into it. They investigated some other, some of the other deaths for a couple of years. But eventually they, they close it. I mean, the guy's got, you know, he's never going to get out. Right. Consecutive life sentences. Yeah.

Apparently it took 12 hours for Harvey to step by step tell every detail of his 17 year killing history. Yeah, on the July 9th tapes back then, tape one, I tried to find that. I wish we could have got some of that. I'm sure there's good audio on that. Well, I don't know where it is because a lot of people are going to say, hey, where's the audio? Because they're used to that. And that was the biggest issue with this.

There was just no good audio out there. There's a great interview that they apparently did at Lebanon Correctional Institution. Yeah. But it was a French media group. Media group. and they every time he would talk they would talk over him right yeah so you couldn't pull any sound bites out of it but it sounded like it would have been really good right so again 12 hours a little probably I bet you was similar to BTK as you know he just went down yeah this is what I did

but again he had names dates he even had some of their the patient's patient numbers right I mean in his memory yeah and plus the plus the plus the The detectives did have his journal. Yeah, right. So they had that. So they had that accountability also. It turned out that he kept saying he was a mercy killer. But again, like we said, that wasn't his motive, even though he tried to pass it off as though it was.

I mean, number one, if you killed one or two people over a period of time that were dying. So like, take, what's his name, Jack Kavorkian. Right. He helped. He didn't kill. He had technically. assisted suicide. I mean,

nobody kills this many people. And we already know some of the facts don't support that at all. Yeah, these weren't mercy. There was something I read that, and I don't know if he said this in an interview or not,

but there was something that said he wanted to be featured in the Guinness Book of World War. Yeah, I read that too, that he wanted to be the number one. Yeah, so I mean, he's not, but he was working his way there. I mean, he's pretty,

He's high up there on the list. Yeah. But he's nowhere near number one. So after he's done with Ohio, so then they take him to Kentucky, he pleads guilty to eight counts of murder there, one count of manslaughter, gets eight more life sentences, and a 20-year sentence for the manslaughter.

So the only other thing that I had did a 1991 interview with a Columbus dispatch, And they, and you touched on this a little bit earlier, but they asked him straight out, why did you kill? And he says, well, people controlled me for 18 years and then I controlled my own destiny. I controlled other people's lives, whether they lived or died. I had that power to control. Then they asked him, what right did you have to decide that? And he says, after I didn't get caught for the first 15, I thought it was my right. I appointed myself judge, prosecutor, and jury.

So I played God. So, I mean, to me, this sounds like somebody that was, you know, we know he was abused. He was probably felt powerless in his life. And this gave him a tremendous sense of power to do what he did. I mean, that's the only thing that I can wrap my head. round. So the only other thing that I had was that it said his first scheduled parole hearing is set for 2047. I've seen that. He'll be like 95 years old. So until next episode for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.