True Crime All The Time - Donald Howard

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

In August 1977, wife and mother of 2, Shirleen Howard was murdered in the basement of her Minnesota home. Shirleen was shot twice in what appeared to police to have been an execution. They quickly looked at her husband as a murder suspect but he had an alibi. Donald Howard had been out with his two girls shopping at the time his wife was murdered. Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the case of Donald Howard. Police learned very early on that Donald Howard had tried to hire not one, but three different hitmen to kill his wife. One man took him up on it but it didn't go the way that Donald had planned. Police had to put all of the pieces of the puzzle together to learn exactly what had transpired and the reason why Donald wanted his wife dead.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 273 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson, give me, how are you? Hey man, I'm doing good. How about yourself? I'm doing very well. We talked about it at length on our weekly Patreon episode, but I've been glued to the television. Oh yeah, a lot of things going on.

Yeah, you and I recording tonight, it's the first time that we've been together since the war on Ukraine broke out. Right. Obviously our hearts go out. I feel sick, man, about what's going on. Sure. But for those of you that are Patreon members, we talk about it quite a bit. Yeah, we do.

In this week's episode. Gibbs, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Tracy B jump out at our highest level. Hey, Tracy. Wendy Lee. What's going on, Wendy? Gina Robertson. Hey, Gina.

Robert Durant. Hey, Robert. Amy Eslinger. What's going on, Esslinger? Nebula day planner boo-boo. Well, what's going on, boo-boo? It's a long name. It is.

It's a lot to put on the back of a soccer jersey. That's for sure as a kid. It'd be a little tough to get on there, huh? Yeah, we had Marshall. Hey, Marshall. Destiny Watkins Aquina. Hey, Destiny. Jessica, Adamic jumped out at our highest level.

Well, thank you, Jessica. Gabriella Palomo. Hey, Palomo. Claire Vanoi. Hey, what's going on, Claire? Robin Diaz. What's up, Diaz? Josie Turner.

Hey, Josie. And last but not least, Kia Green. Well, thank you, Kia. So thanks to everyone that chooses to support us on Patreon. If we go back into the vault, this week we selected Jimmy Chambers. Hey, Jimmy. So a big shout out to Jimmy and all the people that continue to support us month after month. I wonder if Jimmy talks in third person.

Like Jimmy on Seinfeld? Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy doesn't like that. Jimmy does not like that. We had some PayPal donations from Maria Unicus. Hey, Unicus. Janet Lamb.

What's going on, Janet? Joanne Gooch. Hey, Gouch. And reading, writing, Redhead. Well, thank you, Redhead. Yeah, thanks to everyone. Gibbs, right now, we have an episode out on Unsolved about the 2003 disappearance of Laquanta Riley. Yeah, it's such a good case.

You know, jump on over there, listen to it. We're going to dive in. We're going to Alabama. And we're talking. about some of the rabbit holes. As we normally do. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I'm ready.

We are headed to Minnesota to talk about a hit man hiring husband named Donald Howard. I love it when we go to Minnesota. Minnesota, I know you get to do some of your accents. We're going back to the 70s here on this one. Oh, Bell Bottom time. Bell bottoms, disco. Saturday night fever. Begis.

There was a lot going on. There was. But in August 1977, Shirline Howard was murdered in the basement of her home. The police quickly suspected her husband. But in this case, the husband didn't do it. He paid someone to do it.

The man who killed Shirlene was just one of three men, whom Donald had offered money to kill his wife. life. Shirleyne and Donald Howard married on August 14th, 1965. Shirleyne worked as a public school teacher in lacrosse, Wisconsin, which was Donald's hometown. In the early 70s, Donald and Shirleyne moved to Winona, Minnesota with their two young daughters, Janet and Jacqueline. I hope I'm saying that name correctly, that city name.

Chances are I am not, and it will be pointed out, which I'm fine. with. Yeah. But that's what I'm going with. You're getting an email or two. Oh, I will. Howard and Shirleyne owned a hardware store called coast to coast. Employees later reported that they occasionally argued about how to run the business, but it wasn't anything real serious. So, you know, let's break that down a minute. I think just being married. Obviously, you're going to have your arguments. You sure will. Now you own a business, you're working together. Okay, you and I had our disagreements. We did. Working together. So you're married working together. You're going to have some, uh, tiffs now and that. There's going to be some

heated moments. But like I said, people said they never really saw anything serious. Most people thought that Donald and Charlene lived a perfectly normal life, right? They just seemed like any other married couple. the thing was Donald was hiding a dark secret. And that was that he had spent about a year planning his wife's murder. Charlene Howard was murdered in the early evening hours of Saturday, August 13th, 1977. She was just 32 years old when she was murdered leaving behind her husband Donald and her two daughters. So, I mean, this is not a who done it.

We've already let, you know, let it out of the bag that the husband. that the husband is involved, you know, something that you and I talk about quite a bit. You know, how do people make the decision that they're going to take another person's life, whether they do it directly, whether they pay to have it done? At some point, Gibbs, you have to make the decision that this is the course of action you want to take. This is the road you want to go down. And of course, after a year of planning, He goes down that road. Yeah, there's no doubt that he did, but I mean, I just don't understand it.

You know, as a guy who's been married for 25 plus years, I just said it. My wife and I, we get into our tiffs, we have our arguments, things like that. I can never imagine myself getting to the point where a light bulb goes off in my head. And I think, you know what? the best course of action for me would be to either murder my wife or pay to have someone do it. I mean, we just mentioned it, right? They had two daughters. So not only are you murdering your wife, you're taking away the mother of your two daughters.

Yeah. What's that going to do to your kids at that point? Well, obviously, it can never be good for them. I mean, growing up without either parents. can be very tough. But when your mother is murdered, there's, to me, there's got to be an extra element to it. And then obviously later on, if you find out that it was your father who did it, okay, there's going to be some therapy that is, is probably going to be needed.

A lot of therapy. And if he gets caught, which we know he does, now your kids don't have either parents. Yes. So I mentioned it Saturday, August 13th, 19th. Donald and his daughters were out that evening. They left the house at 6.30 p.m. to go shopping for an anniversary present for Shirlene. It was the Howard's 12-year anniversary the very next day. Donald and the girls visited a neighbor to borrow a ladder and they stopped at an ice cream

stand to get a malted milk for Shirlene. They arrived home around 9.15 p.m. The TV was on in the living room and the dog was in the kitchen. The girls went upstairs, and Howard went to the basement to look for his wife. Now, Donald claimed that he found Shirlene's body at 9.20 p.m. in the basement of their home. Charlene had two gunshot wounds to the head. Donald later said that the wounds looked very fresh,

as if she had been murdered just a few minutes ago. But nothing was disturbed or even missing from the home. So to come back home from getting ice cream, I mean, it would be shocking for him and his kids. You know, going off the theory that we at this point in the story don't know who did it. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It would be.

Donald took his daughters to his neighbor, Mr. Maloney's house and called the police. All he told his daughters was that their mother had been hurt. Officers arrived at 9.23 p.m. and began searching the home. So they got there very quickly. They did. Assuming that Donald was being truthful in, you know, the fact that he found her at 920, he couldn't have found her too much earlier if they really didn't get home until 915.

There's not a big window there. No, it's pretty limited. But, you know, within eight minutes of them arriving home, the police are on the scene and they're searching. Shirlene was lying near the basement exit door with two gunshot wounds to her head. Investigators found two 45 caliber bullets and two 45 caliber casings near Shirlene's body. The police estimated that she died between 9 and 9.20 p.m. Well, that kind of goes along with his story.

That it seemed like she was just murdered. Yeah, it does. Shirlene had powder burns on her head, which indicated that she was shot at very close range. There were no signs of sexual assault, and police didn't find any indications of a struggle. I mentioned it, right? Nothing was missing. Nothing in the home was damaged or broken. It looked to investigators as though Shirlene was folding clothes and watching TV before she was killed.

Some theorized that she might have gone. to the basement to investigate some type of noise caused by maybe an intruder breaking in. I mean, a random noise in the basement is one way to get somebody down there to look around, but it's also one way to get people to not go there, right? I mean, there's some people that hear a random noise in the basement. They're like, no way. If you're home alone and you hear kind of a ruckus or, you know, breaking glass or something in the basement, would you,

automatically go down to check it out to see what it is or would you as i think a lot of people would either call the police or run out your door yeah and maybe go to a neighbor's house and and and seek shelter there put some distance between you and that home so they searched the house they looked at the crime scene they also began talking to neighbors the howard's neighbor mrs maloney said she spoke to Shirlene on the phone at 9 p.m. And she told investigators that there was nothing unusual about their conversation. Mr. Maloney was watching TV in his living room. He said he didn't hear anything unusual. None of the neighbors gives heard gunshots or saw an intruder breaking into the home. I think that's kind of important information there, right? None of the neighbors heard the gunshots.

I mean, 45 calipers, kind of loud. It's pretty loud. Yep. The report is pretty loud. You know, depending on the insulation, the type of home, okay, how close the homes were to each other, all of that would play a factor. Sure. Into whether you would hear a gunshot or not. Now, does it surprise me that people didn't see anyone lurking around?

No, not really. You know, if I'm in my home, I've got the shades drawn. Yeah. I'm not seeing really all the time what's going on outside at my neighbor's house on the street, stuff like that. Unless there's some type of noise, loud noise that tries me to look out. I'm not looking out my window. Yeah, we heard a couple gunshots the other night. Yeah.

My wife wanted me to get up and look. Obviously, I didn't see anything. I've mentioned it before, right? There's a field across the way. Right. There are sometimes people shooting. I'm not sure why it's dark. You know, most people don't target shoot in the dark or things like that.

So it always kind of draws our attention when it's dark outside. The police couldn't identify the motive right away because I mentioned it, right? Nothing missing from the house. Nothing stolen. Nothing damaged. It looked to them like Shirlene was killed in some type of professional hit. which, you know, obviously that's going to have the police asking the question, right? Who would want to kill an average suburban wife and mother?

I mean, this was a woman who had no known enemies. Yeah. She wasn't involved in any type of criminal activity. So why? She wasn't sexually assaulted. That question of why then becomes really important. It does. Now, we do know people kill.

at random. Obviously, you and I have covered a number of killers who, you know, are killers of opportunity. They find an open door. You know, they spot someone. They follow them home. It does happen. But I don't think it's the norm. I think most people who are murdered or murdered by someone they know or least is known to them. Yes. It was reported that witnesses say, said Donald was rational, but not in shock. A lot of them said he appeared, you know, shaken up, but otherwise he was despondent and at times clearheaded. Okay. Make that what you will. You know, I do think you have to be careful. I know I've said it before in putting too much stock in how someone reacts after, you know, they find someone murdered.

people do handle those situations in different ways. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, it's just they might not always be tearful and upset. Well, I think some people are so shocked. Yeah. That they can't even get the emotion out. Now, in the cases that we do, does it often come back that, okay, kind of the way that they're acting points back to them.

And yeah, it does. Right. I still think you have to be careful. Just as long as you don't have that nervous laugh, like in that movie with the Joker, with the Joaquin Phoenix. You mean the movie called The Joker or Joker? Oh, yeah. He said that movie with the Joker.

I was like Batman something. No, I'm pretty sure it's called Joker. Yeah, because Batman's not even in it yet. It comes into the very end of the movie. Yeah, which was, you know, kind of a departure from many of the campy Batman's. that you think about, right? This was a dark, brooding type of movie. He gave what was really kind of an incredible performance,

but the movie is very dark and disturbing. Yeah, but I just remember he had that nervous laugh that he couldn't control. During the search of the home, police found articles and pamphlets on marital difficulties in the master bedroom. So, okay, I think naturally, Donald is going to be looked at. Sure. We see that in any case where, you know, a spouse is murdered.

The other, the other spouse is going to be looked at. Yeah. But when police find pamphlets kind of indicating that maybe the marriage isn't good, okay, does that peak their interest even more? Yeah. I think it would. I think it would too. But pamphlets alone are not enough to really probably,

put him at the top of the suspect list or make police think for sure that he killed his wife. Police returned on August 15th and Donald helped them search the house for more evidence. What a nice guy. Yeah. You know,

you have to play the role. You do. What are you going to say? F you? Right. Yeah. Get out of my home. Okay. If you do that, you're painting a really big target on your back. No. What most killers do is they're extremely cooperative. What Donald didn't know was that the father of a man named Charles Murphy called the police on August 14th because he said he feared for his family safety.

Charles Murphy then had a meeting with the police on the 15th. And during that meeting, he revealed some shocking information. And that was that Donald had asked him to kill Shirlene on August 12th. he offered him $4,000 for the hit. Big money for 1976. It's a lot of money. Yeah. It's not a lot of money to kill somebody, which is something that you and I always say,

but $4,000 in 1976 is a good chunk of change. Sure is. And I said August 12th, but it was August 12th of 1976. So this was a full year pretty much before the murder occurred. And then in the months following that, Donald said, this man some messages that could be interpreted as additional request to kill Shirling. On August 23rd, 1976, Murphy received a note from Donald and the note said, bring those bikes over some night this week and let's make a deal. Call me and I will open up. Okay, I think that note on

its own doesn't really sound ominous at all. But four days later on the 27th, While they were both in Donald's store, coast to coast, Donald gave Murphy a pistol. And he told him that it wouldn't make much noise. He also told him that he had to put on a good front in the community so that no one would suspect him of the murder. Donald told Murphy to make it look like a robber, broke into the store, and killed shirley. So it sounds like the original plan was to have.

Charles Murphy come into the Costa Co-Store while Shirlene was working, kill her, and make it look like a robbery. Police would be none the wiser. But obviously, we know that's not what happened. Right. But this case could have went a whole different avenue if that could have happened back then. Hey, T-Cat fans, I want to introduce you to a little magical elixir that I've been using for about a month now. It's called Magic Mind. It's amazing. It's the world's first. productivity drink created to be taken daily. And what it's done for me is it's made me sharper. It's increased my energy. I'm less stressed. I take mine in the morning with my coffee. The other benefit is that I'm drinking less coffee because I feel like I need less. I'm sharper. I noticed it in the very first week. I was taking it every day with my morning coffee. I had less brain fog. I was more productive. And that trend has continued. And there's no caffeine crash like there is with drinking. too much coffee or with some energy drinks because Magic Mind contains minimal caffeine, all of which comes from the Macha tea. So if you're like me and you just want to feel sharper

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that's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash T-CAT, T-C-A-T-T for 20% off. Bomba's dot com slash T-Cat. Murphy received another note on September 9th. It said, I know you don't need to make a big purchase, but I need to make a big sale. And I suppose you can read between the lines. The price could change upon request, thanks Don. So again, if you just read this on its own, you really wouldn't make a little. all that much out of it.

No. It sounds a little confusing there towards the end. Sure. But it sounds like, you know, he's trying to make a deal to sell something. Well, we know what it really means, right? The big purchase is murder. Right. He really wants to make the sale.

He wants to make it happen. And he's flexible on the price. If $4,000 is enough money, we can talk about it. Then a few weeks later on the 21st, Murphy got another note. It said stop in Friday night. We need to make a deal. Another note on October 27 said, I still need to make a deal.

I got a better one now. He's really hungry on this, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. He wants his wife dead. According to the Winona Daily News, the final communique occurred on June 3rd, 97. It read that 32 caliber I loaned you eight or 10 months ago. The feds are going to audit my gun records and I need a registration sheet of the gun back. I hate to be an insincere giver,

but apparently you won't need it anyway. Now the word insincere was not used. It was actually a racially insensitive phrase. So I changed it. I think probably most people can figure out what the word that was used was. Then it said, try to get over here by Friday, June 3rd. Thanks, Don. Now, one thing that later came out Gibbs was that all of these notes were written on coast to coast paper. Hardware paper.

Hardware, you know, paper from the store, which obviously would further implicate Donald Howard. Murphy also reported that Donald had asked two other people to kill, Shirling, one guy by the name of Raymond Rennacher, and another by the name of Bruce Weber. So on August 18, 1977, the police met with Raymond Rennaker, one of Donald's former classmates. It came out that Donald had also offered him money to kill Shirling, and Raymond accepted the money. He paid him $1,000 and offered to supply him with a gun. But in March 1977, Raymond called Donald to back out of the job. And then later in the summer, he stopped by the hardware store.

And Raymond said that's when he saw Howard meeting with another man. Raymond asked him, if this man was supposed to kill Charlene. And Donald said, yes, he had paid the guy $2,000 for the job. Howard continued offering Raymond money to kill Charlene all. the way up until August 7th. At one point Gibbs, he even offered him a motorhome as payment. Wow, man. So, you know, there's a lot of things going on here, right? Obviously, there's no doubt. He wanted his wife dead. Badly. Badly. And I'm sure we'll talk about the reasons as we go along. He offered multiple people. The one thing that that kind of jumped out at me was that so he offered

this Raymond guy $1,000. And then Raymond saw him talking to another guy. And he just comes out and asks him, is this guy going to kill Charlene? Just like that. Like they're talking about the, uh, you know, the college football game. Yeah, or the weather or the weather or something like that.

But Donald admitted to him that he offered him 2000. Okay, well now, sure, I'm ticked off. Yeah. This guy's worth 2000. and you only offered me a thousand. Got a problem here. Well, there's a number of problems, right?

Not to make light of this hit man situation. Number one, you're involving a lot of different people. And you're really kind of giving out a lot of information that could potentially, you know, make some of these people upset. Yes,

very upset. Then I think you start to get desperate when you're offering up a motorhome. Yeah, and if you're on the other side of that, you can feel the, Desperation? Yeah. So this guy really wants this job done so much so that he's just offered me a motorhome. So if I kill someone, then I can take off and tour around the country. Yeah. The other thing I kind of want to go back to is this Raymond guy, you know, he did accept the job. So, you know, obviously I don't know that he had all that many qualms about it in the beginning. Now something caused him to have some later on, right? He later went back and said, you know what, I can't do this. I'm out. But the guys were friends. So they continued to talk.

And he seemed to know quite a bit about, you know, what Donald was planning, who he was talking to, even how much money he was offering. Raymond identified a man named Bruce Weber as the third individual in a photo lineup. Police looked through phone records and saw that Donald called Bruce Weber in Illinois from both his store and from his home. There were 15 calls between March 29th and July 1st of 1977. Police also later learned that Donald met with Weber several times from the winner of 76 through 1977. During these different meetings, Donald gave Weber handguns. He gave him merchandise from his store. When Weber moved back to Illinois in July 1977, they had repeated phone conversations.

Weber called Donald on August 11 from Illinois. The last time they met was on August 12th. The two met at a bar. Donald went in through the back and they met out of sight of the other patrons. Weber was last seen in Wisconsin on August 13th at 8 p.m. about half an hour away from Wynonna, Minnesota. So that doesn't make him look good. It doesn't.

The police determined that the murder weapon was a 45 caliber llama firearm. That is a brand that I am not familiar with. But they learned from gun records at Donald's hardware store that he had transferred five guns, including a 45 caliber llama to Bruce Weber. Okay, now it's really not looking good. You know, police are starting to get some very valuable and damaging evidence or information. The other thing to me gives that's interesting here is that, you know, this was pretty common back in the day for hardware stores to sell guns. Local hardware store.

You could walk in, you could buy a gun. It was pretty common. Yeah. Get yourself some gun and arms. ammo and the local serious hardware. So police had quite a bit of evidence. And after they got it, they were ready to make an arrest. But they did need some help.

So the police urged Raymond Reneker to contact Donald. Raymond called him on August 23rd and arranged to meet at Donald's home later that day. Raymond wore kind of a wire, I guess you'd call it, or concealed device. And the police taped the conversation between him and Donald Howard. I wonder what a wire was like in 1977. Probably like super thick. Like the whole recording device was in your chest. And it was, yeah, I really don't know.

Take a one of those tape recorders, you know, that you see. Just taped it to your chest. Obviously nothing like the technology that they have today. But they were able to take this conversation. and during their conversation, Donald complained that the man he hired to kill Shirlene had botched the job. According to court documents, he was recorded saying, listen, let me tell you what happened. This guy I told you he had backed off. He didn't seem to want to do it. He called me up and said, do you still want me to do that? And I said, yeah, I said, okay. I come home and that's what I

found he was planning an accident it was supposed to be an accident i was so goddamn mad and it was gruesome okay pretty tough to get much more damaging than that yeah it really is i mean you were coming out and not only saying that you hired a hit man to kill your wife you're really kind of giving a lot of details right it was supposed to be an accident i came home i found this gruesome scene the guy had botched it all up at 9.45 p.m. The police entered Donald's home and they arrested him as soon as he opened the door. Donald was questioned, but he requested a lawyer and he refused to admit to anything. So the other thing Gibbs I want to talk about is the timing of, you know, all of this. Shirley Howard was murdered on August 13th. The very next day, Charles Murphy came forward and basically,

you know, told police what he knew. knew put Donald even more squarely on their radar. And just 10 days after the murder, they got this Raymond guy all miced up. So, you know, things happened very quickly, right? He was arrested very, very quickly, about 10 days after the murder. On August 24th, two officers approached Donald So. One officer later testified, I explained that I was very interested in getting more information in regard to the person that actually pulled the trigger,

that I was personally concerned. And our investigation was concerned that this person was still on the loose somewhere. And that I was concerned with the safety and security of his children and his family and the officers involved in the investigation, the witnesses involved in the investigation. And I asked that hopefully he would be willing to give us some information to assist in the investigation.

And I get that, Gibbs, right? you have Donald Howard in custody. Right. You believe, based on the evidence, and the evidence is pretty compelling, that he hired a hitman to kill his wife. What you don't have is the man that pulled the trigger. So would there be some fear there? Yeah. Of course.

He's on the loose. What is he liable to do? But Donald agreed to participate in a tape recorded interview. According to court documents, he said, well, no, I guess not when asked if he wanted an attorney. On August 24th, Donald Howard confessed to paying Bruce Weber $2,000 plus some merchandise to kill his wife, Shirley. After the murder, he sent Weber a package containing $1,500 and a diamond ring.

Pretty sick. It's sick and it just shows you what some people are willing to do for a little bit of money. You know, in the life of another human being, a wife, a mother to two children, it's, it's kind of hard to fathom. It really is. At 2 a.m. on the 24th, officers searched Bruce Weber's house for the gun. From 9 to 9.30 a.m., two officers spoke to him at his job. He told them he owned a llama 45, but he had lost it at a bar.

The old I lost my gun at the bar routine. That's the, the most. most often used trick in the book. Yeah. The I lost my gun at a bar. I took it out, laid it on the bar, had me some drinks, you know, things got a little crazy. Left without it. Somebody came along and took it.

Officers asked him if he'd been in Winona recently. He said he was fishing in Arcadia, Wisconsin, and may have crossed over into Minnesota. On the 25th, the police got a search warrant for the. package that was sent to him. The postal inspector intercepted the package at the post office in Joliet, Illinois. The return label read De Pline, Plaza East, Winona, Minnesota, 55927. Expert testimony later confirmed that Donald Howard wrote this return label. Additionally, the package receipt was found in his wallet. So, okay, you've got a handwriting analysis expert.

That's one thing. Sure it is. But when you have the receipt for mailing the package in your wallet, it's hard to dispute. It's kind of hard to dispute. The package contained a rolled up magazine, which concealed $1,500, a diamond ring, and a note that read, Stay Cool, called the store Tuesday the 29. the handwriting was later identified as Donald Howard's. The police photographed everything inside the package and they covered it with fluorescent

detection powder. And then they carefully resealed it and they prepared it for delivery. So this was pretty interesting to me. They got the postal service involved. The package was intercepted. They went through it, took pictures of everything, but then kind of packaged it back up so that it could be delivered. And from what I understand Gibbs, the postal inspector personally delivered the package to Weber's house. He signed for it, took it inside, and then he was arrested on August 26,

1977 at his home in Joliet, Illinois. The police found him walking through his living room with the $1,500. The ring was in his pocket. The note was torn into small pieces in the garbage can behind his house. Let me just tear this note up. That shouldn't be traceable. No, there's no way that anybody would be able to put it back together and see what it says. Now, he didn't know that they'd already opened the package and they knew what was inside and had photographs of everything. But still, I get it. People probably didn't have shredders in their home back then, but you know, maybe you could have burned it. You could have flushed it. There's a lot of things you could do with a, you know, small pieces of torn up paper.

But to me, that's what, you know, I think surprises me the most. Outside of the fact that people are willing to do something so heinous for a little bit of money, it's just how careless they are. I think a lot of people just believe, well, there's no way they're ever going to figure out it to me. Yeah. Overconfident. Right.

I don't really have a connection to the victim. and I think you're right. A little bit of overconfidence, maybe just not being, you know, all that smart about it as well. Weber told the police that on August 13th. He went bar hopping with a friend. He was in Wynonna on a fishing trip.

Between 4.30 and 8 p.m. He was with a woman. He was last seen at 8 p.m. at a bar, about 30 minutes from Wynonna. So we said that the murder most likely happened sometime around nine or just after nine. Well, if you're 30 minutes away at 8 p.m., obviously, you can make it there in time to commit this murder.

The police learned that Weber and a friend went to a woman named Ms. Smith's home in Rockford, Illinois between 10 p.m. and 12 a.m. on August 11th. Did you ever watch the Rockford Files? I did, man. I used to love that show. Yeah. With James Carter? Yeah.

Yeah, I think that was his name. but I used to watch that show a lot. I was pretty young, but I think probably somebody in my family was watching it. You know, playing the guy in the notebook. He did. He did. The older guy.

Yeah. Obviously. Yeah, not the younger guy. Not the younger guy. By that point in his career. Yeah. He also played Maverick. I think he was in Space Cowboys.

Wasn't he one of the old astronauts that they sent up? Yeah. He had a pretty good career. Yeah, I think so. So apparently, Miss Smith told police that Weber asked to stay with her to save money on a hotel. He said he was on his way to Winona to, quote, do a job. Weber didn't contact any of his relatives in Winona on August 12th or the 13th. And he and his friend checked into the strolling motel in Winona on August 12th.

And they reserved a room not only for that night, but the next night as well. They spent the night in the room on the 12th, but not the 13th. And police found out that Weber met with Donald Howard at the bar on August 12th to finalize the details of the murder. So, I mean, I think when you add all of this up, Gibbs, the evidence is lining up against these two minutes, right? There's really no way around it. I think prosecutors felt very confident that they could get a conviction against a, both of these guys, but their plans would be delayed by some unforeseen events. Because in October 1977, Donald Howard escaped from the Winona County Jail.

This was about two weeks before his trial was set to begin. He escaped from his second floor cell sometime between 7 p.m. Saturday and 7 a.m. Sunday by cutting through a padlock holding the window bars. in place. All right. Is that how we were doing it back then? We got bars on the windows, but they're just padlocked. They're not actually built into the structure itself.

What the heck did he find in his cell to cut through that padlock? Wasn't like there was a red that he could get some tool from. Well, maybe there was. We don't know. I mean, you think about it. I'm shocked that there was a padlock, right, on these bars. Maybe I shouldn't be. Should I also, therefore?

then be shocked that he's able to find something, maybe apart from the bed, the spring. Yeah. Rip that off, sharpen it. But now to get through a padlock, if you're thinking about like a master type padlock, okay, pretty thick. Unless they were on a budget. They were using the real skinny. Yeah.

Skinny locks. We don't know. But still, he had to fashion some type of tool that would cut. would cut through this padlock. And you just wouldn't think that he'd be able to do that or find that in his cell. Yeah. But obviously he, uh, he did. Because, you know, by my way of thinking gives, it's one thing to make a shiv or a shank,

right? You and I haven't settled on which is which. I know we've been told a bunch times, but I do get conflicting information. You can make some type of stabbing. weapon out of just about anything, right? I've seen people take plastic toothbrushes and file them down to a point, you know, the part of the bed, right? If you can get it off, well, okay, it's sharp metal and you can kind of hone it a little bit. But when you're talking about a tool to cut through a padlock, to me, that's a much different ballgame. Special skills, man. Special skills. Special

Hills. Oh, I know you could do it. I'm just talking about the average joke. Donald was last seen in his cell at 7 p.m. on October 22nd. The officer who delivered his Sunday breakfast at 7 a.m. saw his shoes poking out from this partition behind the toilet area. The officer shouted chow and then he left. when he returned at 12.50 a.m. with lunch, he saw that the breakfast hadn't been eaten. So that's when the sheriff was notified of the escape. I'm envisioning the scene from escape from Alcatraz. Yeah. Yeah, I got you.

All that activity going on. Planning that went into. I mean, we are talking about probably a somewhat small county jail. Yeah. You know, I was thinking, okay, did they not have a count? but I don't know if that happens as much in a county jail as it does in a big prison, where everybody has to be accounted for at different intervals. Obviously, there was no count between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m. and 6 a.m. either because, you know,

it wasn't realized until almost five hours after that point that the guy had escaped. The police determined that either Donald or someone else sawed through the paddler. lock holding the iron bars in place outside a window. So maybe that explains some of it, but then it leads me to another question. Not only are you using a padlock to kind of keep these iron bars in place, but somehow it's accessible from the outside as well? I wouldn't call it top-notch security or top-flight security of the world, as they said in Friday, too. Friday after next. Friday after next. They thought that Donald closed the inside window,

put the bars back, put the padlock back in place. Then he descended 20 feet to the ground and escaped, possibly in a getaway car. They didn't know for sure, though, if he had help in his escape. Well, you know, obviously he had help if somebody sawed through the padlock from the outside. you do have to wonder how this person got 20 feet up. It'd be a little difficult. I mean, is this a Lex Luther situation where, you know, he's got a ladder or he's hanging off of a helicopter? I wouldn't think so.

Somebody would have noticed something like that. Right. But also missing at this same time was 23 year old Nancy Brown, a coast to coast employee. Nancy had worked for Donald and Charlene for four years. she and her husband, Kent, were allegedly having marriage difficulties in the past year. One employee reported that Donald showed Nancy favoritism and often spent time alone with her in the store. It was said that they occasionally worked after hours together and that Donald took her out for coffee. So they spent a lot of time together in the back room, Gibbs.

The old back room. The old back room. That's what it sounds like to me. and apparently whenever another employee passed by, they either lowered their voices or they stopped talking. It was also reported that Nancy once received a week of paid vacation when apparently nobody else had that. It's definitely showing some favoritism.

Yeah, I think favoritism is kind of a euphemism at this point. You know, something's going on. Sure. Right? With Donald and Nancy. Nancy informed a fellow employee that she was going to move. out, but Kent, her husband, wouldn't need to know about it. It was also known that she had some conflicts with Shirlene a couple of times. I guess, you know, some of the employees Gibbs said that

Shirlene was kind of nitpicky with some employees that led to some conflicts. And apparently, Nancy always told Donald about her fights with Shirlene. So we kind of talked about it up front, right? what would make a man come to the conclusion that his wife needed to be killed? Well, I think we're heading down the path of finding out. I believe we are. The Winona Daily News reported that Nancy visited Donald four to five times. After his arrest, she left him a letter that said, Dear Don, how great to hear from you.

You are constantly on my mind. I'm still behind you all the way, so please hang in there. Can't say too much more. except that I won't send you any drugs in my letters, so you're safe. Ha ha, as ever, Nancy. She wrote him another letter on August 31st. Part of it read, I always hand-deliver my mail, so now that I know which side of the building you're on, I'll drive by and look.

Well, as long as the sheriff still read your mail, I won't send you any contrabands or rope, etc. Maybe with luck, I'll see you tomorrow. Keep the chin up. ever Nancy. So I think you're also getting some idea of maybe this kind of small Winona County Jail. Right. If you're able to kind of drive right up to it, right next to it, gives you some sense of maybe how this, this whole thing was pulled off. Police discovered that Nancy Brown left home on Saturday, October 22nd. She told her husband Kent that she was going shopping in Austin, Minnesota, with her mom and another store employee. But she never came home.

Kent told the Winona Daily News, I don't know what's going on. I really don't. Donald was arrested with Nancy Brown in Hammond, Louisiana on October 31st, 1977. So he was out for what, Gibbs about nine days. Yeah. But Donald was arrested as he was going to work at the Sporting Goods Department of a Hammond discount store. The FBI located him after an agent noted.

somebody placed a long distance phone call to Wynona from this particular shopping center. Donald lived under the alias Sam Wilson. He had only been working at the department store for four days before his arrest. Well, he was only out for nine days. So he got a job pretty quickly. Really quick. And as we've talked about, right, a little bit easier to do that type of thing back in the 1970s.

My thought is there probably was very little in the way of due diligence. done on new employees, background checks, things like that. Yeah, I think they were probably just happy to have somebody working. Sure. Nancy was charged with aiding and escapee. She received a three-year prison sentence on April 4th, 1978. Her husband Kent told the Wisconsin State Journal that he was worried until he received a letter from Nancy saying that she loved Donald.

He gave the letter to the sheriff to help with their investigation. Gibbs, he also said, he had no hard feelings and hoped that they could be friends. I've got no choice but to accept it. If everything works out, I hope that Nancy and Donald can work something out between themselves. Man, that's a pretty understanding husband right there. I don't think I'd be that way. No, I don't think I would be either. Now, I think it was pretty optimistic on his part to think that Nancy and Donald were

going to be able to work something out, right? She was going to go to prison. We know Donald's going to go to prison for ordering the hit on his wife. Yeah, maybe sometime way down the road, they can, they can be together. And if that happens, Kent would have been very happy for it. He would have. He said, oh, you know what? I'm glad that worked out.

Bruce Weber's trial began on December 5th, 1977. One of the star witnesses for the prosecution was a guy by the name of Norman Costick testified that in the fall of 1976, he and Weber were working on a construction job together and they were discussing how to commit the perfect murder. Okay. I'm sure Gibbs that many people have had this type of discussion. Maybe playfully, just kind of off the cuff. Hey, if you were going to do it, how would you do it and get away with it? I think a lot of our listeners might have had that conversation by now. Yeah.

Also, a lot of our female listeners, husbands are concerned that they're having that conversation way too often. Very much so. I get emails all the time from people who say, my husband doesn't understand my fascination with true crime. And also he thinks I'm trying to figure out the perfect way to murder him. He's a little bit nervous. I mean, it's said jokingly.

I get it. So what these two decided. was that it should be done in the early evening after dark on a Monday night. Okay. Very specific on the night. They said that shooting the victim in the basement would muffle the noise of the gunshot. And that is true, right? You and I talked about it depending on the makeup of the house, the construction, the

insulation. Now, if you're in the basement, that does change things quite a bit. If you're on the main floor, you've got windows, Some of that sound is probably going to more easily transmit to maybe a house next door. I know with my basement, it's a lot more solid. The walls are concrete, right? They got to be poured. So you do get a little bit more soundproofing, I guess, if you want to call it.

Yeah, I think there's definitely some sound barrier there to break through. They said that the best way to send the money for the job would be to wrap it in a magazine and just mail it. Weber had twice offered him a job to kill someone. The first time he offered, they were outside a coast to coast store. This is what this guy, you know, testified to.

He said, when Weber came out of the store, he had a gun. And he asked Kostick if he wanted to earn $5,000. And Kostick asked him, who would I have to kill? He said, Weber said,

some people needed to be killed and then put his finger to his head, and said blam, blam. Okay. Kind of strange noises for approximating, uh, what a gun sounds like. I think he's off a little bit, but I think he made his point. Yeah, I think he made his point very well. It's also again, to me a little strange, right? These guys are, are talking about how to commit the perfect murder.

Okay, that could just be idle chit chat fantasy. Nobody's ever going to go through with it. But, Kostick is asked if he wanted to earn five. thousand dollars and right away he says okay who would i have to kill now he doesn't go through with it obviously right but it sounds to me like gibbs at the very least he entertained the idea he thought about it he wanted to know some details most people would say yeah okay how do i earn this five thousand not who do I have to kill for the 5,000. That was almost a given.

On December 13th, 1977, Bruce Weber was found guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison. And for me, Gibbs, there's really no reason to go too far into the trial, right? We talked about the evidence that they had against him. There was witnesses.

The prosecution felt pretty good. and I think they should have, and it proved to be correct. Pretty solid case. Yeah. Donald Howard was extradited to Minnesota on December 12, 1977. His trial began on February 1st, 1978. So again, you know, if you're looking at timeline, how quick is everything happening here? Let's move along really good.

The murder happens in, what, October of 77. They're caught very quickly. Now he escapes, but he's caught quickly after that. as well. He's extradited in December and his trial starts in February. The state attorney said at trial that there was some speculation that Shirlene was knocked out and dragged to the basement. Supporting this theory were three pieces of evidence. One was a piece of insulation that apparently was torn out and put over her face. The angle of entry of the bullets indicated that she was lying down when she was shot. also she was found underneath the basement stairs so you know i think early on we said they speculated

that maybe she went down to the basement to check out some type of noise right i think you brought it up you know how many people would do that how many women home alone really would think that's a great idea okay well now it comes out that that's probably or most likely not the way it happened And she was knocked out while she was upstairs and then dragged to the basement. Right. Because Weber thought that was the best way for neighbors not to hear the gunshots. Yeah. That's why they muffled that noise.

According to the Wynonna Daily News, Howard allegedly told one of the informants that he wanted Shirlene dead because he didn't want her to get a dime. And man, how many times have we heard that? Too many. You know, it's either another woman or not wanting to give up money. And in this case, it might have been both. Shirlene was a co-owner of the store, which meant that Donald would have lost a significant amount of money in any type of divorce.

But despite the fact that he made a confession, Donald denied everything at trial. His defense argued that Shirlene's murder was the result of a fencing scheme. between Donald and Weber that had gone wrong. The La Crosse Tribune reported that defense attorney Douglas Thompson said in court, Donald Howard is not here in this courtroom because he caused the tragedy discussed here, but because he was the victim of a tragedy. The defense claimed that Donald stored stolen power tools at coast to coast for Weber, who returned to claim them.

they got into a fight and Weber called him threatening to break his arms and legs if he didn't pay him cash in a ring. So this allegedly happened on August 11th, 1977. It was also alleged that Weber promised to come to the house on the 13th if Donald didn't pay. The defense said that Donald stayed away from the house on the 13th to deter Weber from breaking it. He said his confession was made in jest and an attempt to get Weber off the streets and away from his family. Donald claimed he sent money in the ring to Weber because Weber threatened him. The defense also argued that Howard had no motive to kill Charlene because he had nothing to gain from it.

Of course he had something to gain from it. Yeah, we just talked about it, right? Money, not wanting to give up money and possibly to be with another woman. But to me, Gibbs, this is an interesting part in any case. right you have a defendant who has confessed to the crime well now we get to trial and they have to put on some type of defense so one thing you have to do is you have to try to figure out how to explain the confession and then offer another version of events okay the confession wasn't real but this is how things really played out. And there are some components to it, right? You have to explain the $1,500.

you have to explain the ring. And so this is what they came up with. But why not tell that story from the get go? Well, most people would say because it's not real. It's been manufactured after the fact. After the attorneys get involved and they say, oh, this confession is going to be a problem. We've got to figure out how to do some legal maneuvers, right, to counteract it. And as you always say or talk about, you're sowing the seeds for some type of reasonable doubt, right? You have to. As the defense, could it have happened this way? Well, sure, it could have.

Right. Now, is the jury going to believe that given all of the other evidence? be hard to. And to your point, if he would have said this from the very beginning, maybe it's more believable. Sure. But it's so contradictory now at this point, it basically just seems like a Hail Mary. You're just throwing something out there at us because you have to explain the known facts. And so you're crafting a narrative that includes those facts, but differs from what you're you confess to. Yeah. Well, the jury didn't buy it because on February 14th, 1978, Donald Howard was found guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit first degree murder. He was sentenced to

life in prison, as he should be. Absolutely. Right. The hit man gets life in prison, but so does the person who initiated the hit. Yeah, he ordered that hit. You got to pay the same price. Donald's appeal was denied on August 31st, 19th. The court did vacate his conspiracy charge, but not his first degree murder charge. A rehearing was denied later that year on October 4th. He filed another appeal in 1985. He filed for a retrial on the grounds that some of the evidence against him was the suppressible fruit of an unlawful, warrantless entry of his home by the police to arrest him.

So basically what he alleged Gibbs was, that the officers initiated the arrest as soon as he opened the door, they didn't identify themselves, they didn't state their purpose before they crossed the threshold into his home. The court replied, a decision that an arrest in such a situation is valid only if the magic words informing the defendant that he is under arrest or uttered during the split second that the petitioner is standing in the threshold or hanging on to the doorknob would be ludicrous. So his second appeal was denied on August 30th, 1985. Yeah, I think that makes sense.

It does make sense to me too. It's a good try. Yeah. You know, I don't want to give this guy any credit, but, you know, I think as a convicted murderer or a person convicted of first degree murder, much like he did in court. you're going to try a bunch of different things during the appeal process. And, you know, it's up to the courts to weed out, you know, some of this kind of baseless. They called it what, fruitless or no? Fruitless. Ludicrous. They called it ludicrous. He called it fruitless. They said that it was, it was just ludicrous that in that split second before they even crossed the threshold, they had to do this, this, this and this. But this guy was eligible. for parole. After 17 years, five months and 20 days, you know, he went through counseling. At one point,

he did earn a college degree. He had a parole hearing on July 15th, 1997. And it was at this parole hearing Gibbs that Donald Howard finally admitted his guilt. And I think that's what helped him get parole. And to me, this is fascinating. You know, this comes up in a ton of, wrongful conviction cases where people make the decision. They are not going to admit to something that they say they haven't done. And you know, you can look at a bunch of cases where people have spent so much time in prison, they would have already been paroled if they would have simply admitted to the crime for which they were convicted.

But they won't do it because according to them, they're not guilty. Now, oftentimes it later turns out that they were right. They weren't guilty. Right. But that's a tough decision to make. Right. If you've been in prison for 20, 25, 30 years and you're constantly being denied for parole, because let's face it, a parole board wants to hear you say, yes, I did it. And I'm very, very sorry. Exactly. What they don't want to hear you say is I'm not sorry because I don't. didn't do it. Yeah, they're not going to let you out. No. Donald's daughter, Janet Howard, told the lacrosse Tribune in 1997 that she wanted nothing to do with her father. When the parole board asked her about her father's release, she told them she didn't think he should leave prison. Janet and Jackie were sheltered from the truth for years. Donald's parents told them one story, while Charlene's parents told them another. But apparently, none of them told

them that their father had a hand in their mother's murder, I do think that's a tough choice, right, to tell small children. It is. Be very difficult. Apparently Donald called them on birthdays and holidays, but then, you know, as the years went by, the communication dwindled. And then eventually Donald finally admitted the truth, but by that time, the girls already knew the truth. So I think it would be extremely difficult for any child to really forgive a parent for taking your other parent away from you. Yeah, I mean, they basically lost their childhood and all the memories that they could have had, both with their mom and their dad, but more so because their dad took their mom away. Yeah. Janet told the paper, I wasn't in favor of it. I'm not necessarily against it.

I just don't want anything to do with him. I've lived this far without a father. so I don't need to start now. I can't get my mother back and keeping him in jail any longer isn't going to bring her back. At the same time, it's nice to know. He isn't going to come to my work, be at my birthday party, or if I ever have kids, come and visit my family. Okay. That's a tough visit.

Hey, kids, I need to introduce you to your grandfather. Yeah. A convicted murderer. He's out now, but he does. did have your grandmother killed. Go say hi. Sit on grandpa's lap. Yeah.

Or don't. Yeah. Please do not sit on grandpa's lap. Yeah. I mean, I joke around, but just a very tough situation for the kids. And then obviously as they grow into adults,

tough because, you know, he's getting out. They're going to have a family at some point, most likely. Sounds to me like they just didn't want to have anything to do with them. It'd be really difficult to have. that type of relationship at all.

And I think for one reason, because you are essentially starting over, but you're starting over from a really bad place. You know, this isn't the dad that you loved and you just haven't seen for a long time. Right. This is the dad that eventually you found out killed your mother. And now it's like, okay, do you really even want to try to build a relationship with this person? You haven't had it. Right.

You've been okay with. it, why do you need to? Why would you put yourself through all that hurry? Right. Yeah. I totally understand what she's saying. But Donald was approved for parole in 1997. He began a three-year transitional release and would only get parole if he maintained good

behavior during that three-year period. During the first year, he increased his work and education responsibilities. During the second, he moved to. to a low security facility without fences. And then during the third, he began a work release program. So this wasn't a just all of a sudden boom, you're out. This was we're going to let you out. But it's going to take three years and you have to demonstrate over that three year period

that we're making the correct decision. Right. That you're okay to be back out in society. Yeah. I actually kind of like this. way that they went about it. I don't know if this is a Minnesota thing. If it was a Minnesota thing back in the late 90s, I don't know. But how many cases have we done where it's just like, okay, boom, you're out. That person essentially has no life skill. Right. And they don't know how to

function in the world. They can't hold down a job. So what inevitably happens is that they revert to their old life of crime and oftentimes ratcheted up even further and do even more bad thing. Yeah, I agree. I think this is a great way to transition somebody back into the real world. Whether you believe that the guy should have been let out or not, some people might, some people might not. But if he is going to be let out, I do kind of like this transition style period. Donald Howard was officially paroled in October 2000. So Gibbs is we wrap up this case. Obviously, this is another example of how greed motivates people to do terrible things. Gride is a you know what. And this is something that we talk about all the

time. This is a guy who could have easily divorced his wife. If that's what he wanted to do, right? if he wanted to move on, if he wanted to be with someone else, the problem is he wanted to do that. He just didn't want to have to give up his money. And we see that from selfish men time and time again. So he thought taking her life was a better option than giving up any of his money. I really see it as kind of a, you know, have your cake and eat it to type of deal. Yeah. The problem is to do it.

you have to kill your wife who at one point you deeply loved obviously or you probably wouldn't have gotten married and who is the mother of your two girls because you're not willing to divide up your assets legally and like you said right his daughters had to grow up without a father and a mother and he spent over 20 years in prison as a result of you know really what you would have to call, I mean, in one way, being selfish in not wanting to give up his money, but then in another way, just being heartless that you could make that decision. Oh, yeah, this will solve all my problems. I'll just have her killed. How'd that work out for him? Well, it didn't work out well for him, but I still come back to the mindset. You know, how do you make that decision? How does it go through your mind?

And you finally settle on the fact that, yes, this is the best option for me. I'll never be able to wrap my mind around it. I don't care how many cases you and I do, I'll never be able to do it. Yeah. Because we just don't think like that. No, we don't. I get it. Marriages don't work out.

People grow apart. They fight. They make the decision that they would be better off apart. You know, even when kids are involved, it happens. it happens to a lot of people, I think what most people don't think is that the better option is for me to kill my spouse. Yeah, it's never the right option.

No, it's never the right one. I just don't think it even enters most people's minds. Now, obviously it does some because we've done quite a number of cases where it did. Too many cases. Too many. But that's it for our case on Donald Howard. We've got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

Let's hear them. Hey, guys. So this is CJ from Indiana. This is like day three of me listening to your guys' podcasts. I really like it. I really enjoy it. And I just want to like give a call. Just kind of let you guys know that you got a new listener.

And also throw in that I'm not sure since again like I'm new to listening if you guys done her bow maister yet. but I found out from my partner that his mom actually dated his brother. So apparently after everything happened. So I just want to let you guys know because I think it's crazy. And I now currently live where his house used to be and we drove past it plenty of times. And now it's made into something different. But it's definitely still on that property and it's really cool.

So just wanted to let you guys know. Thanks. Wow. New listener, only three days in, yes, we did do Herb Baummeister. It was pretty early on. It was one of our very early cases. Sure was. Remember correctly.

It was also, to me, a fascinating episode. This guy was, he was something else. He was. Very manipulating. But the other thing I would say is you and I are always fascinated by people who have some type of connection. Right. To these. cases. Now, she dated his brother after the fact. So she probably didn't get to see the mannequins and,

and, you know, some of the strange things that went on at the house. Exactly. Hey, Mike and Givis, it's Rhonda from Hood River. Actually, white salmon now. Anyways, I'm just listening to the latest podcast about Debbie. And I kind of giggle every time you guys talk about putting the seat back because I am only 5'3. But every time I get get out of the car, I move the seat back. So I don't have it for me. So if somebody found my car and I had been the last one to drive it, it most likely would have the seat back because even though I'm only five three,

I move the seat back when I get out, I move the seat forward when I get in. So anyways, I love you guys. Obviously have stuck with you this whole time and just, I'm way behind on Patreon episodes. You want to know why? Because I can't feed up your voices. Anyways, I listen to you guys at two times the feed on the podcast normally. And so when I go to listen to the Patreon content, I can't feed you guys up.

So anyways, I love you guys and keep your own time ticking. Thanks. So a couple of things there. And I'll start with the last part first. I'm assuming that she's listening to Patreon episodes on the Patreon site. Right. And you can actually use the RSS feed. to put Patreon into whatever, you know, podcast app you listen to TCAD or Unsolved.

And there and then I think you would be able to speed it up. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Now, you can't watch the videos that way. But now the seat thing, that's baffling to me a little bit just because I never move my seat. Nobody else ever drives my truck. My seat stays where it is. There's really no reason for me to move it forward. or backwards.

But maybe if you're way up against it, maybe you need to push away a little bit to get out. I don't know. Maybe, maybe, but, and let me say, hopefully nothing ever happens to her. We would never wish that upon anyone, but that is going to mess with investigators. It would.

But we don't want to think like that. Never. We don't want that to do that. Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Warren. I'm from Minnesota. And I was just first time caller and just listening to the Jake Bird episode. And you were talking about the Gandy Dancer.

Where that term came from was it was from the Gandy Tool Company manufactured railroad tools. The dancer were the workers that would pound the spike and the sequence in which they would do it. There were usually three people, and they would each hit the spike in sequence, and it looked like a dance. So I just thought that was kind of ironic, and I lived not too far from the Dandy Dancer State Trail on the Minnesota-Wisconsin border. So I just thought you guys would enjoy that little tidbit. Keep up the good work. Love the podcast. I'm totally caught up.

with it now and been a long time listener and keep your own time taken, guys. Interesting fact. Yeah, I love it when people call in who know more about a subject than we do, which a lot of people do, let's face it. Right. We don't have a great deal of knowledge on everything. I'd also know that Elton John song, Tanya Dancer, originally started off as the Gandy dance.

Exactly. Hold me closer, Gandy Dancer. Exactly. You know, but as he was saying that, I started to think. I've seen it in old movies or movies that were period pieces. Right. Where you had like three guys standing around with sledgehammers or whatever they had. And it was almost like synchronized, not synchronized, but they were doing it one right after another in a sequence. I have seen that before.

And they always hit it right on the head too, man. Well, I guess if he did it all day long, you'd get pretty good at it. I would hope so. Hello, gentlemen. My name is Laura. and I grew up in Maryland at the time of the Bradford Bishop case. I just listened to your episode about that and thought you did a great job with it. I can assure you that it was a seven-day scandal, as I say, Bethesda, that area, very wealthy neighborhoods,

and things like that just didn't happen there, but of course they did. It kind of followed on the heels of the disappearance of the Lion's Sister as a case I'm sure you're familiar with. Well, anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I very much enjoy your show. And I wish you all the success in the world. Have a great one. All right. Great voicemail. Thanks for the kudos.

We really appreciate it. Love it. We had nothing in mailbag, Gibbs. What? Nothing. Nothing. And what am I going to do? You won't have anything to take home with you.

You'll leave empty handed. Again. But that's it, buddy, for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabi, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.