True Crime All The Time - Dr. Glennon Engleman DDS

Episode Date: December 2, 2019

Glennon Engleman was a respected dentist who was admired in the community. What people didn't know was that Engleman moonlighted as a hitman. He wasn't your typical hitman, Engleman concocted his murder for hire schemes with women to murder their husbands and split the insurance money. His crimes spanned a period of over 20 years and his downfall was blabbing about his exploits to his ex-wife who had been wired by the authorities.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss the murder for hire dentist, Glennon Engleman. This is a man who is thought to have murdered at least seven people, and many people believe there were many more. And sure, there was money involved in these murder plots. But, it is thought that money was just a small part of the motivation for Engleman. He enjoyed the planning, the chase, and the thought that he was smart enough to outwit the police every step of the way.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation informationAn Emash Digital ProductionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your math skills have global potential. As an actuary, you'll solve some of the world's most pressing problems while helping people to live better lives. Become an actuary through the society of actuaries and work anywhere in the world. Everyone and welcome to episode 159 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. As always, is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great.

Good. Hopefully your Thanksgiving went well. Oh, you know, it always goes well with all that food. Yeah, it's kind of strange. We're taping this episode prior to Thanksgiving. So hope everybody had a good one, those of you that celebrate it. And if you don't, hopefully you spend some time with friends, family. And ate a lot of good food.

And ate good food. We should be doing that anyway, right? It shouldn't take Thanksgiving to make sure that you spend some real good quality time with friends and family. Eating and drinking. Eating, drinking, and being married. Just, well, that's my name. That's exactly right. That's not.

All right, Gibbs, let's start out with our Patreon shoutouts. We had Tara Davis. Hey, Tara. Catherine. Catherine. Robin Roush. What's going on? Rouse racing.

Rouse racing. Yeah. Beth Goudi. Hey, Gute. Gute. Kiley. What's going on, Kylie? Dorothy.

Hey, Dorothy. R. Diane wife. Diane. You're just leaving out the R and just going with Diane. Veronica Wallace. Hey, Veronica. Ida Berg. What's going on, Ida?

Ann Dorsey. Hey, Ann. Abby Melrose. Oh, Melrose. Mary McCrary. Hey, Mary McCrary. Yeah, that's, you got to take a minute to say that all at one time because you'll run it together. Jeremiah and Lena.

Hey, Jeremiah and Lena. Joey Zuluski. Hey, Zaluski. Mark Spencer. What's up, Mark? Dina La Candola. Hey, La Candola. How are you?

Jumped out to our highest level. Nicole Hale. What's going? on Nicole. Julie Hinton. Hey, Julie. Susan Lee Loy. Hey, Susan.

Teresa Rudok jumped out of our highest level. Appreciate that, Teresa. Fran Reed. What's going on, Fran? And then last but not least, Whitney Queen jumped out of our highest level. Whitney is the Queen. She is the Queen. Yes.

Then if we go back into the Balk Gibbs, this week, we selected Crystal El Ghanian. Elganian. Amazing. Been with us for years and years. Yeah, I appreciate that. We appreciate the new support, the continued support. We had some great PayPal support as well, Alicia Little. Hey, thank you.

Who I know is also a Patreon member. Appreciate that, Alicia. Supporting in multiple ways. Love it. Chance Peace. Hey, Chance. Braida Hale. What's up, Brada?

And Jessica Metz. Hey, Jessica. So thank you all for that. Ghibie, we put out our Patreon episode last week, Patreon full episode, both video and audio. I think people enjoyed it. Those that, you know, are Patreon supporters. We did.

Again, if you're not, now's a great time. know it's the holidays, money's tight. I get that. Yeah. I get that. But, you know, for as little as $2 a month. But spend anyway. It's a lot of extra content out there. So check it out. So right now, we have an episode out on True Crime All Time Unsolved. I think this is an episode that people are really going to like. I do too. It's fascinating. It's the case of the, what was first known as the Bojure Doe. Yeah, down in Louisiana. So we're down in Louisiana, Bojure Parish. They find the body of a woman, a girl.

Right. Can't identify her. She becomes known as a Jane Doe, the Boisier Doe. Right. Years later, they identify her as Carol and Cole. And then the mystery starts to unravel. This is one of those unsolved. For people that have a hard time with the,

non-finality aspect. I don't know even if that's a word. Yeah, but I don't know if you're saying. Yeah. This is one that is about as solved as you can get without it technically being classified as salt. They believe they know who did it. We'll talk about it.

But even still, throughout the years, there were other suspects. Oh, yeah. And names that you will definitely recognize. I mean, these are well-known, infamous killers. Some big names. So definitely check that out. What else you got? Do you got anything before we jump in?

No, man, because I'm really excited about this episode. Well, I am too. I am too. And I think people are. But you know, I have to start out by saying, Mr. Gibby, are you ready for this episode of true crime all the time? And I always say, I am. But I need that confirmation, man.

I need the confirmation to start the episode. Yeah. What if I said, hey, you know what? Let's pause it right? Let's shut it down. Yeah, we're going to pause. I'm tired of looking at your ugly mug. That's you saying that to me.

I'm out of here. I'm out, yo. I think people would be disappointed. So I went to the dentist a few weeks ago. And just for a six month cleaning, right? Normal six every six months. Yeah. But I was having a little bit of pain in one of my lower back molars.

They found out I had a crack. So I have to get a crown. I've never had a crown. I'm not looking forward to it. It's a good time. First of all, I detest going to the dentist. Who doesn't? Nothing against dentists or dental hygienists.

I just don't like it. I don't like people rooting around in my mouth. I don't like the tools, the instruments. I don't like any of them. You're definitely an anti-dentai. I am. Yeah. So it's just not something that I enjoy.

So after I got home, you know, I'm thinking about cases. And I thought, okay, there's got to be some type of dentist serial killer. Or what I really thought is, I probably find a dentist that killed their patients for whatever reason over the years. It would be good. And that would be good. Well, I found the dentist. Dr. Glennon Engelman, who we're going to be talking about. But this guy Gibbs, he was essentially a hitman, a murder for hire guy. Yeah. Bag dude. And I don't think we've done anyone like him since episode two, Richard Kiklensky, which you were not on. Now, we rectified that on. Now, we rectified that on

Patreon. We did. And did a brand new Richard Keklinski with you in it. Man, and it was good. It was good. Much better than the one that I did three years ago. That's what they're saying. Oh, I think it's, I think it's unequivocal that it's better. It's hard to do a podcast by yourself. It really is. When you have nobody to bounce something off of, I know. It's very difficult. You don't know because you've never done it. Well, that's true. It's my fear. No. So we have a dentist who is a hitman on the side. But here's the thing. He didn't just carry out the murders, right?

This wasn't a guy that was putting an ad in the back page of a some, I don't know, how did hitman used to advertise? Soldier for Ford. You know. No, this wasn't that guy. This guy was essentially putting everything in motion, pulling all the strings. He was the guy behind the scenes setting it up. Instigator.

Yeah. Who would then later come in, commit the murder and collect, you know, some of the life insurance proceeds. Perfect as that. And you come in and you start laying the seeds in people's heads. And every time you see him, you just water it a little bit more. Yeah. I think that's what he did. He also, I believe, did it for, I don't know if enjoyment is the right word.

I think he liked killing. But I also think he liked the scheming, the planning. the outsmarting of the police. Oh, for him. He liked that. It was for him. It was a thrill. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. He was also very adept at getting women to take out life insurance policies on their husbands so that he could then kill them and split some of that money. Yeah. Well. Very premeditated. Very much so. I think this guy was a real psychopath.

I mean, he murdered at least seven people. There are some people that believe it could be as high as 12. I think he was only convicted of five. We'll talk about that. But who knows what the real number could be. But let's jump right in. In no way is this going to be a background case. There's just not much background out there.

And I don't think it's as important as it is in some of these other cases, especially in serial killer cases. Glennon Engelman was born in Missouri in 1928. He had one sister, two brothers. I really just couldn't find that much on his childhood. but I think he came from a pretty good home. There certainly was nothing that would hint at the fact that he would later become a psychopath. No mistreatment.

I didn't find any, you know, record of early animal abuse by him. Right. Sexual abuse, abuse of him by his family. I just didn't find any thing. I think he just grew up in a normal, pretty normal middle class family. Just typical day growing up in the. Family house. And some killers do, right?

You and I make a big deal about people's backgrounds because a lot of killers have really jacked up backgrounds. There's no doubt about it. Just think about last weeks. Yeah. But not everyone does. Not every killer does. He was of average intelligence, which for us lately is pretty good because we've been profiling

people that have had some very low IQs. He got decent grades in school. He was not said to have been, you know, Mr. Smarty Pans like you, but he did okay. He got by. He graduated from high school. And then he went into the Army Air Corps. And essentially parlayed that. He used the GI Bill to attend college.

He graduated from dental school from the Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri. So, okay, he's not super smart. He didn't get great grades. But he was able to power through. Yes. Go to college, go to dental school. It says a lot. It does.

He at least had some drive. And I think it's that drive. You're going to see that play out in the murders as well. I think he had a drive to murder. He got married to a woman named Edna. But the marriage didn't last, right? It lasted a few years. That's really it for background.

Because we got to jump right in to the murders that both this guy. was known to have committed and thought to have committed. Right. Started in 1958. That's when Engelman is thought to have made his first kill. The details around it are a little sketchy. But it definitely seems to have involved his ex-wife, Edna. She remarried a man named James Bullock.

This was after her marriage to Engelman. Yeah, he was just a young guy, really. Yeah, he was 27 years old. worked as a clerk at the union electric company, went to school part-time. And James was on his way to a night school class on the night of Wednesday, December 17th, 1958 when he was shot and killed outside of the St. Louis City Art Museum. So he was killed in a pretty open space, right, a pretty populated area. It wasn't killed out in the woods or, you know, anything like that.

Out in public. Engelman shot James twice in the head once in the chest with a 22 caliber gun. His body was found around 7.30 that night by a passing motorist. And there are some really strange stories in the newspaper back from that time frame. You know, there are motorists that said they believe they ran over his body. There was indications that there were tire marks on his body. At first it was called in as an accident. Like an automobile.

Like a hit and run. Like he had been hit. But it turns out that, no, he was shot. And then later, I think, an unfortunate motorist swerved to miss this guy that had his hands up in the middle of the road. Right. And ran over the body. Oh. So pretty interesting.

Not for that guy that ran over the body because you've got to live with that. Yeah. Even though I believe he was already dead. That's what he's telling himself. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. wasn't moving at all, Mr.

Police found James Bullock's car still running behind the museum. And Gibbs, there was a trail of blood from the car, essentially to where he was found in front of the museum. So I don't think it was that hard for police to figure out that he was shot in the car. Then he got out, tried to walk, tried to get help or whatever, you know, he thought he was going to do before he collapsed where he was found. Yep. It all makes logical sense to me.

And it should, because I said it in a very logical way. You did. I'm just kidding. So police are called out. They're investigating this. Pretty strange, right? They know somebody has shot this guy to death. You know they're going to want to talk to Glennon Engelman.

After all, he's the ex-husband of this guy's wife. So they hauled him in for questioning a few days after the murder. And he was questioned by police alongside a. friend of his who also came who said he was with Engleman on the night of the murder. And this is where it gets very murky. Engleman said he was at his dentist office that night and that he and his friend went out just for like a brief period, 10, 15 minutes, whatever it was. They went to a drug store to get a soda. Well, you got to get that soda, you know. When you got to have it, you got to have it. That's right. Although he is a dentist. He should know. Maybe it was a diet. So did they have

diet sode in the 50s? I don't know. I don't think they did for some reason. Maybe not. I'm sure they did. But there were a number of people that cast suspicion on Engelman's version of events. There were people Gibbs that said they showed up at his office. No one was there.

People told police that they called his office. No one answered. And this was a pretty good span of time, you know, hours, much longer than the five, 10, 15 minutes that these two guys were saying they left to go to the drugstore. Yeah, I think it'd probably take the soda jerk a little bit longer to even get his drink ready and have him drink it and then get out of there. Well, I don't know if they drank it there. They could have taken it back, right? Well, I guess they're, maybe they were allowed to go cut back then. You're making a lot of assumptions. I don't know. But police could never tie the murder to Engelman. And it went

unsolved. But when you look at the papers from the late 50s, his name is splashed all over them. It's not like people didn't know that police were looking at him. It's not like people didn't know that, you know, obviously he had this tie to this victim's wife. So even back then, all the sluice were like, it's him. Oh, yeah. It's him. We know it's him. I think police really thought it was him. They just couldn't put it together. Yeah. You know, and we had that happen. happen a lot. You got to have the evidence. We know that. He repeatedly refused to take a lie detector test. This is something that police wanted him to do. He said, you know what? No, I don't feel like it. Not going to do it. Probably pretty smart on his part. He also refused to testify in front of a grand jury.

I mean, he was there. He just wouldn't answer any questions. He took the fifth every time. Which is always strange for me. It is because it's like you're saying, I didn't do it, but then you're saying I'm taking the fifth. So, but I get why you do it. I get why people do it too, right? It's, it's a right that you have. But I think naturally, people look at that, people that take the fifth as having something to hide because they think, okay, why else would you do that?

Right. If you had nothing to hide, you would say what you knew and go on with your day. But some people just don't want to take that chance. I think there are many innocent people. that say, you know what, I don't want to take the chance that you're going to use something I say against me. So I'm not saying nothing. And we've seen it where innocent people. It has happened. And they get railroaded. Next thing you know, they're doing time, you know. So. But I still think by and large, most people probably look at folks like this that take the fifth and think, eh, there's something.

They're hiding something. Right. His friend also refused to take a lie detector test. So in the end, Engelman's ex-wife, James's current wife, Edna, received about $64,000 in life insurance proceeds. Gibbs, that was a lot of money. Back then. In the late 50s. Man. What do you think that translates to today? Oh, beep-bo-be-bo-bo-bo-bo-bo-bo-bo-bo-bo.

$570,000. Okay. I like that. I have no idea. I didn't look it up. Yeah. But that's a lot of money. You know it was.

$64,000. She gave $20,000 of that to Glennon to invest in a drag racing strip. Awesome. The drag racing strip, not the fact that he murdered. Right. Yeah, yeah. But that is interesting. It's also very fishy.

You'd have to admit, here's a guy that is paying alimony to his ex-wife. And the papers pointed this out. Her husband, who she'd only been married to for about six months, is killed. killed, she collects his life insurance, and then turns around and invest in her ex-husband's business. Right. Fishy for sure. Yeah. It was so fishy that she didn't get the money until 1961 because it was contested by Bullock's family

on the grounds that she was involved in the murder. This is the other thing. The papers did not shy away from saying that people thought she was. somehow involved in the murder of her husband. A co-conspirator. Yeah. In the hearing over this contested life insurance, it was brought up that James Bullock's life insurance policies were increased just before the marriage and then again, just after

the marriage. So, I mean, you have to look at that and say, all right, doesn't prove anything. Because I think a lot of people when they're getting married, you know, when it's just you. Right. Your life insurance needs are different. When you get married, now you're taking care of each other. So I think it's natural a lot of times for people to up their life insurance.

So I get it. He upped it right before they got married, thinking I need to do this. But after the part, it's like, okay, what was that about? Well, it was about the fact that he was about ready to be killed. Yeah. And I as his wife wanted to collect as much as I can. Yeah, because I'm going to invest in a drag strip racing thing. Sure.

The judge said there was no proof that, you know, she was involved in anything untoward. So they awarded her the money. Pretty quickly after the murder, before she even got the money, she moved to Kansas to stay with her mother and she got a job teaching school. So she was a school teacher. Yeah. Shaping the hearts and minds of young people. teaching them how to, you know, do math. You know, here's $64,000.

If you give your ex 20,000, he will take away the person you're married with. How much do you have left? Exactly. It's a simple subtraction problem. Actually, in more ways than one, right? You're subtracting a husband. Yeah.

And then you're subtracting some money from your life insurance proceeds. So I mentioned that Engelman bought or started a drag strip. think he started it. I don't think it was there and he bought it. I'm pretty sure he started it. It opened in 1963, which was the same year that Engelman committed his second murder. 23-year-old Eric Frey was a business associate of Engelman's at the drag strip. I've seen conflicting reports. I've seen that he worked for Engleman. I've seen that he was some type of partner in the business. So I just called him a business associate. The newspapers at the time reported that

Eric Frey was killed on October 3rd, 1963, and a dynamite blasting accident. Wow. That's not a good way to go. It's not. It's scary. I mean, you could get dynamite back then a lot easier than you can today. Yeah, I do agree with that. You can't walk into your local Ace hardware and just say, hey, I need to get some dynamite.

Yeah. It's a little more controlled. But they were doing some blasting at the dragstrip. So apparently there were a number of cisterns that held water. They were trying to fill them in. They were blasting them and then they were going to fill them in. So the paper reported that Eric Frey was last seen on his belly over one of these cisterns with a stick of dynamite in his hand. Now, they reported that it must have had a short fuse because he was found lying face down in the water at the bottom of the cistern.

What really happened is that Glennon Engelman hit Eric Frey in the head with a rock and threw him down the cistern, down the well. Oh. Then he lit a stick of dynamite and threw it in there with him. And then come boom. And then it went to boom to make it look like a blasting accident. It's actually pretty good plan. Well, you know, again, I talked about this guy's intelligence. It wasn't off the charts. But as we go through some, of these murders, it's hard not to look at some of the things that he did, some of the plans that he came up with and say, wow, you know, there was some planning there. There was some smarts to it. But to hit him with any other object but a rock, because you know the blasting is going to make rock crumble and fall. And he's, so that would be legit. You would look at that and go, well, I had to be from the blast. Yeah. The trauma to the head. Right. And so he had to, he had to have the

dynamite go off to have the injuries to this guy's face that would make it look like the dynamite blew up in his hand while he was leaning over this cistern. But as it turns out, Eric Frey's wife was related to Engelman by marriage. And this was another scheme, Gibbs, to get a man's life insurance proceeds. She ended up getting about 37,000 and invested 16,000 of it back into the drag strip. Man, it must be a heck of a drag strip. Yeah. Now, I'm using invested in air quotes.

Sure. People can't see it, but I'm using my air quotes. The thing about it is, you know, he's getting this money, but I'm thinking it must have cost more to operate a drag strip than he originally thought because the bank placed a lien on it in 1964 due to non-payment. So he's getting all this money. It was reported that it was invested in the drag strip. but he's not making his payments.

Sounds like he's just putting that somewhere else, another account. Yeah, I don't know. We'll talk about it as we go through. I don't think the money was the end-all thing for Glennon Engelman. So he ended up losing the drag strip. It only operated until I believe 1967 with the new owner. So all in all, it was only in existence for about four years. The thing about this one is Gibbs, I don't even think police suspected Engelman

at all. You know, the death was ruled accidental pretty quickly. Now, mostly that was based on the statements made by Engelman. You know, I was there. This is what I saw. And then pretty much everyone moved on with their lives. That's really believable, though. I mean, it really is. If you're the policeman coming out investigating that, it wouldn't seem like it could be much of an investigation. Yeah, they were doing some blasting, right? They were using dynamite to fill in. You know, in some of these cisterns. It was pretty well documented. It was also said that Eric Frey didn't have a lot of experience using explosives.

Now, we're going to find out that Glenn and Engelman has a lot of experience. Hell yeah. And he's going to use it over the years. So his name wasn't really brought up in the articles during that time as being a suspect, nothing like that. Now, they did talk about his connection with his head. ex-wife and the death of her husband, James Bullock, that hung over his head forever. So every time something would come up that happened with him, it was like the paper would

report that, oh yeah, and don't forget, please think that, you know, he might have had something to do with this. Right. Well, it's because they all believed he was guilty and he's been living as a free man ever since. Yeah. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsors.

First up is Upstart. Listen, a lot of us have found out the hard way. Getting into debt is easy. Getting out is hard, especially if your credit score isn't great. Thankfully, now there's upstart.com, the revolutionary lending platform that knows you're more than just your credit score and offer smarter interest rates to help you pay off high interest credit card debt. Upstart goes beyond the traditional credit score. When assessing your credit worthiness, they actually reward you based on your education and job history. And the best part is that once the loan is approved.

and accepted, most people get their funds the very next business day. The next day. Over 300,000 people have used Upstart to pay off credit cards or meet their financial goals. Free yourself from the burden of high interest credit card debt by consolidating everything into one monthly payment with Upstart. See why Upstart is ranked number one in their category with over 300 businesses on TrustPilot and hurry to upstart.com slash T-Cat to find out how low your upstart rate is. Checking your rate only takes a few minutes and it won't affect your credit. That's upstart.com slash teacad. Next up is native. Native creates simple, safe, effective products that people use in the bathroom every day. Their products are created with trusted ingredients. They're formulated without aluminum, paraben, and talc. Their products are filled

with ingredients found in nature. We're talking about coconut oil, shade butter, tapioca starch, things like that. Never tested on animals. And best of all, their products work. You know, making the switch to an aluminum-free deodorant doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice on-product performance. Native has over 9,000 five-star reviews. They've been featured in magazines on talk shows. Their deodorant comes in a wide variety of enticing scents for both men and women. They also release limited edition seasonal sins throughout the year. And they offer an unscented formula and baking soda-free formula for those with sensitivities. Native offers free returns and exchanges in the UcS. I've been using the eucalyptus and mint. It works like a charm. So for 20% off your

first purchase, visit native deodorant.com and use our promo code true crime during checkout. That's 20% off when you visit native deodorant.com and use our promo code true crime during checkout. He wouldn't kill again for about 16 years. It's a pretty long layoff that we know of, that we know of, or that he has admitted to, let's say that. You know, I think part of that, is because he got married again during that time to a woman named Ruth. They had a son. So that might be part of it. He does have a thriving dental practice. The guy is a real dentist. He's got a wife. He's got a kid. That's a lot. He's got a family now. Yeah. You know, does he have the extra time needed to plan out these elaborate murder for hire schemes? Maybe not. I did find that in 1972, Engelman was

charged under an anti-discrimination ordinance for refusing to treat an African-American patient. Really? Mm-hmm. You know how sometimes gives your researching cases and you just stumble upon an article? Yeah. This was one of those articles. The article said that he was ordered to pay the woman $200 in damages. But then we get to 1975.

And this was when Engelman hired a new dental assistant at his office. Her name was Carmen Miranda. Carmen was 23 years old, but had known Glennon Engelman since she was a kid. So at some point after she started working there, they were talking about finances, right? She's 23 years old, doesn't have a lot of money. Well, you know who had the solution to that? Oh, he did. Oh, he did.

Sure. Sure. He has the solution for all of her problems. He told her to marry someone with a lot of life insurance. He would kill this person. and they would split up the life insurance proceeds. That's really confident and comfortable with your new dental assistant. Well, and that's the thing.

You know, this guy had a hold over women. Now, some authors, some people have said that it was a sexual hold. I don't know. I didn't get that from some of the research. But there was an author that wrote a book that really delved deep into the fact that this guy had a sexual. will hold over women. They basically wanted to do whatever that he wanted to please him.

Yeah, I don't know how much of that is true, but it's a possibility. You know, I kind of thought that here's a very naive 23-year-old girl, really. Yeah. Who is looking at this person that she's known for a long time as a respected professional. This guy says, you know what? We can do this. I'll take care of it. The guy's a real Mr. Fix It, Gibbs.

Carmen would later say that he told her he knew it would work because he had done it before in 1963 with the murder of Eric Frey. So he's just coming out? Yeah. Given all the details. So there's a lot of trust here, right? On both parties. He's trusting her with some pretty incriminating information.

She's trusting him because some. somehow he did get her eventually to go along with this plan. And he coached her through the whole thing. I mean, told her what type of guy to look for, laid out all the criteria that, that this guy needed to have to make this thing work. He even had her leave her job at his dentist office,

get a new job to sever their connection with each other. Mastermind. Yeah. Not dumb when it comes to these things. that, you know, he's, he's planning out. He was really thinking ahead on some of this stuff. So eventually, Carmen married a man named Peter Holm in October of 1975. Peter was a lineman for Southwestern Bell telephone company. And he and Carmen had dated briefly in high school. So they already knew each other. She somehow rekindled the relationship. But he ticked off all the boxes.

Right. It worked for a big company. Probably. had really good benefits. Sure. Which included life insurance. Right. And then after the marriage, Engelman worked with Carmen on extra life insurance policies. Here's what you need to get. And they started to plan the murder. I mean, I just want to make sure everybody understands. This woman married a man that she knew in high school for the sole purpose. Yeah. of him being killed later. A payday. And to get a payday.

Yeah. Marry you today for a payday later. Mm-hmm. Engleman brought in another guy, a guy by the name of Robert Handy to help carry all this out. Court documents reveal that they picked a murder site near Pacific Missouri and even did some trial runs. And they would go out to the site.

They would take cans, bottles, whatever. take a rifle. Yeah. And practice. Here's how it's going to go. Man. Like a wedding rehearsal. Yeah.

That's detailed, man. Devious. So it was on September 6th, 19776 that Carmen lured her husband, Peter, to the agreed upon site. Now, wasn't agreed upon by him, right?

He's the only one not in on this thing. No. She's like, hey, honey, let's take a nice scenic walk. He's like, oh, sure, baby. Yeah.

And I think it was a scenic type view. It was near a pond. So husband and wife are standing next to each other looking at this pond. What Carmen knows, but Peter does not, is that Glennon Engelman is hiding with a rifle with a scope trained on Peter Holm. And this is where Robert Handy comes in. Right. I mentioned they brought this guy in. And it shows the pre-planning on the part of Engelman.

he had handy by the gun so that it could never be traced back to him. Now, Gibbs, I don't know how smart it is to bring someone else in on your murder for higher plot. Right. But it is smart to not use a gun in a murder that you purchased yourself. Oh. That part is definitely smart. Very smart.

By the way, I'm going in hunting next weekend. Can I borrow your one rifle? The other thing is, Handy didn't just walk into a store and buy this rifle. We'll find out later at trial that he actually bought it from a drug dealer. Because that's where you want to get your guns from. Well, yeah, just under a different name. Right. Well, there's no federal paperwork to fill out when you buy your guns from somebody off the street.

You buy them from a drug dealer. It's the way you do it if you want to make sure you don't get caught. It's not the way you and I do it. No. But it's the way that killers do it. I do mine the illegal way, always. You just said the illegal way. The legal way.

The legal way. Yeah. If you heard the illegal way. Subconsciously, maybe I heard that. Maybe. But here's what is wild about this thing to me, right? Carmen is standing right next to Peter when the shot that killed him was fired by Engelman. I mean, literally right next to him.

You're really confident in your shooter. Yeah, I think you have to be very trusting to do something like that. Trusting or I don't want to use the word dumb, but- People miss. Yeah. You know, you could have a wasp, land on your nose and sting you, right? As you're about ready to squeeze that trigger and bam. To all it takes, man.

She's dead instead of him. So the shot rang out. Other people heard the shot and they raced. over. An ambulance was called, but Peter Holm was dead on arrival at the hospital. Today, you think people would race over or race away? It's a good question. It's a good question. Because I think in today's society, you hear a gunshot, most people's natural inclination is not to run towards the gunshot. No. Take cover, right? I mean, knowing what we've seen in the last few years. I would take cover it first. You know, if we were with our family. Assess the situation.

Yeah. But if you're lonely by yourself, I would definitely take cover and wait it out. Yeah, you just don't know what it is. You don't know what it's going to be. Now, back then, in the area that they were in, they weren't in a crowded mall. No. This wasn't around a school. This wasn't at a concert, nothing like that. They were kind of out in a rural type setting. Now, there were people there. Yeah. They weren't by themselves. That was probably by design.

You know, they didn't pick a place that no one was around. They wanted some witnesses that could corroborate what happened. Engelman buried the rifle under some leaves, but it was found later that same day and would be matched later as the murder weapon. But not long after the murder Gibbs, Carmen moved to California with her brother. Did she go to San Diego? I don't know where she went, but that is funny. Where in the world is Carmen San Diego.

Yeah. I got it. Okay. I got the reference. She later received $75,000 in life insurance proceeds. Big chunk of change. That is a big chunk. Some of that went to Engelman.

And then out of his portion, he had to pay some to Robert Handy for his role in the whole thing. It's really trusting paying this handy guy. Well, there's a lot of trust. If you look at this situation, there's three people involved. Glenn and Engelman, Robert Handy, and Carmen. Carmen is trusting Engelman. Well, they're all trusting each other in some way. So at this point, there's like four people that know that he does this type of thing.

Yes. And probably many more, as we'll talk about later on. That's true. That's just too many for me to have somebody to know about something. Yeah, I know you wouldn't handle it the way that he did. No. Never. Engelman next murdered three members of the Gusewell family. And once again, he enlisted the help of his buddy.

I don't know how good of friends they were. They must have been pretty good friends, him and this Robert Handy. They're due murder together. Yeah. So you got to know someone pretty well. It was on November 3rd, 1977. Engelman shot to death, husband and wife, 61-year-old Arthur, and 55-year-old Vernita Gooswell in their Illinois farmhouse.

This is just devious here, man. It is because this is a really drawn-out plan that we're going to get into here. Also, make note, this is in Illinois. Oh. He's in St. Louis, Missouri. Okay. So, I mean, not that far. It's a little travel, though.

Obviously. But we're in a different state. It's going to come into play later on down the road. I don't know we're talking about it, but it's going to be a bigger payday. Much bigger. Yeah. And also probably the reason, as we're going to detail out, why the plan was even more elaborate. So he's murdered this husband and wife.

Engelman in handy drove to their Illinois residents. And supposedly, Engelman posed as a Farm Bureau representative to get them to let him into the house. Pretty good. These people had some money. they were farmers. Their estate was worth some money. Then on March 31st, 1979.

So this is like a year and a half later. Engleman shot their 33-year-old son, Ronald Guiswell, through the heart, beat him with a sledgehammer in his own garage in Illinois. Wow. Yeah.

Okay. Rough. Handy was in on this one too. He later testified that he and Engelman waited. in Ronald's garage and surprised him when he got home from work. Ronald's body was later found in his car in the parking lot of a St. Louis Motel. Well, that's strange.

It is strange. But the question we have to ask is why? Why did this all happen? Glenn and Engelman isn't a serial killer. We know that. He didn't just go around killing people for fun or, you know, for some of the reasons that serial killers do. So in steps, Ronald's wife, Barbara, who Glennon had known since like 1960 when the two lived in neighboring apartments. So here's our connection. Here's our connection. They lived together,

not together. They lived near each other in St. Louis. Now, it's also been said that they had a sexual relationship. Somehow they stayed in touch over the years and they began to plan. It later came out in court that they started planning it in 1976. Glennon Engelman would kill Ronald's parents, which would mean that their estate would go to Ronald. That's the first part of the plan. Right. Then you wait a year and a half.

And that's why I said, this is a long, drawn out thing. Yeah, you can't do it too soon. No, because then it looks funny, right? So then he would wait the 16 months or year and a half. or ever long it was, before killing Ronald in his garage. And what I forgot to mention was that Barbara was in the house, right? She's his wife. She's in the house.

Ronald comes home. They kill him in the garage. Then Engelman drove Ronald's car with his body in it to St. Louis and left it in the parking lot. What we're ultimately talking about here, Gibbs, is half a million dollars. Which is a boatload of money. In the late 1970s. It's a bolo now, but then it was a lot.

Wow. I mean, so you can see why this long, drawn out effort these people believed was really worth it. When it was all said and done, the estate of Ronald's parents, coupled with his life insurance policies was worth at least maybe more than half a million dollars. After the murder of her husband, Barbara took off to Florida, she ultimately collected. the money and gave some of that to Glendon Ingleman. I don't think he got a lot. I don't even think he got as much from this one as he had received in some of the earlier ones. I saw estimates of 10 grand. Yeah, I think he really liked this woman. To do all this, I think he really liked her. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what his thought process was. We'll probably talk about it

towards the end of the episode, I don't know how strong his feelings were for Barbara. I think for him it was more about the process. The setup. I'm smarter than everyone else. I'm going to put all of this into motion. And yeah, I'll get a little bit from it. But that's not the big thing. I mean, imagine you talk about it a year later, you come up and you take out the parents,

go back to your calendar, circle a date. Go back to your life as a dentist and everything else. Right. Right. And then one day that date, you see it coming up. You're like, oh, it's that time. Yeah, got to call my buddy Robert Handy. Yeah, time to start prepping.

And we make the drive to Illinois. Because don't forget, he's still married. He still has a son. Now, his wife, Ruth, did divorce him in 1978. But she plays a big role in the case of Glenn and Engleman later on. So we're in the late 70. Engelman used a dental lab in his practice that was owned by a woman named Sophie Marie Berrera. By 1978, Engelman owed Berra's lab about $15,000.

So eventually she said, you know what, I'm not doing any more work for you. You're not paying me. Right. You know pay. We know do your work. Is that a professional term? It's really professional. It's very professional.

On the letterhead. She also filed suit again. against him for the money that he owed her, a man like Glennon Engelman is not going to take this well. No. He didn't like it one bit. So in March of 1979, he tried to blow up this woman's garage with a dynamite bomb. But the dynamite got wet and it didn't fully go off. It did detonate, but only caused some minor damage to the garage. Right. Police came out. They investigated, but really nothing came out of it. I don't think it's that hard to figure out. He wanted to eliminate this woman to make his money situation go away. Sure, because for him, it should be something easily done.

Well, he's killed for money, right, multiple times. Now he's going to kill so that he doesn't have to pay money. Right. But it didn't work. So in January of 1980, right before Barrera's case, again, Tim was set to go to trial. He struck again. This time he used a bomb made up of dynamite to blow up 59-year-old Sophie Barrera's car, but she happened to be in it. It killed her. An investigator said that this bomb was very similar to the one that had been planted in her garage the year before. I'm picturing the old couple sticks of dynamite tape wrapped around it. Some kind of detonator device. But here's where Engleman made a huge mistake. I mentioned that his wife, Ruth, divorced him in 1978, but they still talked, right? They had a son together. That makes sense.

There were some reports that they occasionally had sex as well. I don't know if that's true or not, but they were still talking. And he began bragging about some of the things that he had done, the bombing. I have a feeling Ruth knew about some of the other things, but something got to her. And she reached out to the authorities, told them what Engelman had been talking about. They got her to wear wire. So she has these subsequent talks with Glenn and Engelman, where he essentially implicated himself in multiple murders. Well, probably what got to her was she was probably sitting there one night thinking he could take me out if he wanted to and there was some talk about that that she believed that she might be the next victim on his list because she knew too much

so i i think you're probably exactly right but this was the beginning of the end for engelman police already believed that he was a murderer they were connecting some of the dots between the bombing and the murder of Peter Holm and some of these other cases. I don't think they had any idea about the Goosewell case because that comes in much later. But now they had the proof they needed. They arrested him in February of 1980. People that knew Dr. Glennon Engelman, the dentist were shocked. Oh, I bet.

His patients, neighboring business owners, they all thought this guy Gibbs was. this wholesome businessman. Well, and it's somebody you have, I mean, he's in your mouth. It's pretty intimate in a sense. Yeah. I don't know if that's the right way. I don't know if that's the exact way that I would word it, but, you know, I get what you're saying.

Yeah, you know, and it's a doctor. You know how everybody elevates their doctor up a little bit more than most. Sure. I mean, these are, you know, you look at these people as professionals. Sure. They know things that you don't know. Now, it was also saying. that he sometimes did free dental work for people that couldn't afford it.

I guess as long as you weren't African American, obviously. He would do it for you. He seemed to have a problem treating African Americans. But, you know, it kind of reminds me of Gacy. Now, this guy's not technically a serial killer, but reminds me of Gacy in the way that he's a business owner, pretty well respected in the community. People looked at him as a good guy. Right.

The whole time, he's this devious mastermind. Yeah. Planning and carrying out these murders. Well, you know, they trust him so much, they'd probably just go ahead and give him the keys of their house. You know, hey, we're on vacation. Doc, can you go water our plants? Sure. And he would probably do it.

Yeah. And there were a lot of people that talked about what a good guy this was. Of course, they didn't know his darker side. No, they did not. So eventually, Glenn and Engelman and. Robert Handy were both charged with murder and the death of Peter Holm, they were also charged federally with 16 counts of mail fraud and conspiracy. They were convicted on that in August of 1980. But when you get to the murder trial for Peter Holm, Carmen testified during the trial.

She was grand immunity in exchange for her testimony, right? She had to. What was she going to say? She was going to implicate herself and go away forever. Right. It's a good deal for her. But they also probably really needed her. She had everything. She told jurors how she planned the murder with Engelman, how she lured her husband to the site, and how Engelman pulled the trigger. But think of the jury hearing all these details, how Engelman helped her select her husband well in advance, knowing that ultimately,

they were going to murder whoever she picked and collect his life insurance policies. She also told the jury that her brother, Nicholas, didn't want to pay Engelman. So I'm not going to talk about Nicholas a lot, but he was arrested as well. He knew about what was going on in some former fashion. So somehow he was in on it. Yeah, I mean, not in on the murder, but he definitely knew about it. Some more post-murder insurance payout. Because after she got the money, he said, I don't want to pay this guy.

His cut. And Carmen told the jury that she told her brother, hey, if we don't pay Dr. Engelman, he will kill us both. Yeah. And I think he would have. I don't think there's any doubt he would have. A burglar named Kenneth Cope testified that he sold Robert Handy the rifle that was used to kill Peter home. I kind of talked about that earlier. And then the prosecution played for jurors the tapes made

by Engelman's ex-wife Ruth. You know that had to be powerful for the jury. On top of that, several people, including Carmen, testified about Engelman's involvement in the death of Eric Frey, that had happened many years before. Now, he wasn't on trial for that murder. But it goes to showing the jurors, what kind of guy this is. Sure. It couldn't have made him look good. Both Engelman and Handy were convicted of capital murder and sentenced to 50 years to life in prison. I won't dive into it too deeply Gibbs, but the testimony about Engleman's involvement in the murder of Eric Frey did cause some issues with the conviction for Robert Handy because Robert Handy was in no way involved in the murder of Eric Frey. Right. So his defense team argued on appeal that, okay, how can you let this

testimony in? It hurts my client, even though he had nothing to do with it. Right. He's no party to this over here. Yeah, it's very intricate and I don't feel like going into all the... Right. But I get it. I get what they're saying. It's not like he got off. Right. But it did cause some issues. And then you get to the murder of Sophie Brer. Engelman wound up. with both federal and state murder charges on that one as well. He went on trial for the federal charges for the bombing and murder of Sophie Barrera in September of 1980. They used the secret tapes. His ex-wife, Ruth, made. I mean, I think that was really the lynchpin in the case against him. I think certainly didn't help. No way. Him. No, no way. And I think to a jury, hearing the defendant

talk about and, you know, pretty much implicate himself. That's powerful. Ruth also testified on the stand about the conversations and went further, right, about what he had said, some of the stuff that wasn't on the tape. But let's talk about the tapes because I don't think he really came out and said, I did this, this, and this. What I got was that he made comments like Barera's death was a fortuitous event. that saved me a lot of money.

He also said that she was a woman who deserved killing. So in his conversations to Ruth, he's just making statements to justify the murder. Yeah, but I don't think he ever actually came out and said, I planted the bomb or I killed this person. Basically, he's saying that woman got what she deserved. Yeah, yeah, something like that. Now, she might have testified that he said things that weren't on the tape,

But he did take the stand in his own defense and tried to say that his ex-wife Ruth was setting him up. The jury didn't buy it. He was convicted got 30 years on the federal charge. On the federal, yeah. In January of 81, he was convicted in state court for the bombing and murder of Sophie Barrera, got another 50 years to life in prison. It's a lot of math, man. It gets very convoluted.

this guy has so many sentences that it's really hard to keep track of. And you know Gibbs, they always say that the state sentences have to be served before the federal. I think that's often, or maybe always the case. Well, this guy's got so many state sentences. He's never going to serve technically any of these federal sentences.

He's never getting out. And then it was about three years later that the state finally came after Glennon Ingleman for the murder of the Goosewells. So they eventually put all of that together, right? They're going to charge him with these murders. But this time he rolled over. And even authorities said that they were shocked that he gave up so easily. He's probably like, you know what?

You guys got me in here for the rest of my life. Yeah, at that point, what does it matter? So he implicated Ronald's wife, Barbara, and authorities hauled her back to Illinois from Florida in 1984 and charged her with her husband's murder. She was convicted in 1985 and sentenced to 50 years in prison. She did about 24, 25 years, about half of that sentence and was released in 2009. She changed her name. I couldn't really find much on her.

I'm sure she did everything she could do to stay out of the spotlight at that point. So they sent Engelman to Illinois to test. against Barbara, I think in a grand jury hearing. And as he was being led into his court appearance by two guards, apparently he broke away from the guards and attacked a photographer. Really? He was just like, hey, I'm going to go for it right now and see if I can escape. Sure.

Well, I don't know if he was trying to escape. I think he just wanted to attack this. He was ticked that this guy kept taking pictures of him and wouldn't stop. What did he think was going to happen? I don't know. Apparently, he called the guy a pimp as he broke away from the guards. And even though he was handcuffed, he was able to shove this guy up against the wall, you know, rough him up a little bit before the guards got him back under control.

Engelman pleaded guilty in 1985 to the murders of Arthur, Vernita, and Ronald Guzwell. But the reason that he pleaded guilty, and I think you kind of touched on it, right? he's already in prison serving multiple life sentences. Right. But in Illinois, the prosecutors were going to seek the death penalty. Okay. Can't have that, right? Don't want to die.

I'm going to plead guilty if the prosecutors agree to take the death penalty off the table, which they did. He was convicted and sentenced to three life sentences. Well, he preferred having his own little jail cell with his buddies instead of, you know. Well, if you're already in prison for essentially the rest of your life, and then authorities say, you know what? We're going to take you to trial on these three murders and we're going after the death penalty. Why would you not strike a deal that says, I'll plead guilty, give me life. I already have life.

I'm never getting out. Yeah, I've already come to terms with it. I just don't want to be on death row and I don't want to be executed. Makes perfect sense. Yeah. And it makes sense for the state of Illinois because they save some money. Save a lot of money. They don't have to have this big, lengthy, drawn out trial.

He pleads guilty. He's convicted. Boom, bam. Yeah. The family of the Goosewells get a conviction. So after all of this, authorities went to talk to Engelman to see if they could get him to confess to killing James Bullock. They firmly believed he did it. And one thing I haven't talked about, if you look at the cases of James Bullock and the case of Peter Holm, there were a lot of similarities, right?

shootings, ambush, you can put some things together with both cases. And the fact that this guy was married to his ex-wife, they definitely thought he had something to do with it. I mean, it all lines up. Oh, sure. Sure. So they went to talk to him. And apparently he told one of the prison guards, you know what? tell them they're a hell of a bunch of nice guys, but that's exactly where they can go,

straight to hell. Well, there you go. He's just saying how he feels, huh? Yeah, he's not giving that one up. Hey, I wonder if he's doing free dental in there. Yeah, he might be doing a lot of things in there. Free dental might be the least of his word. Yeah, yeah.

But so, you know, in the end, Gibbs, he was convicted on five murders. They believe he committed these other two, James Bullock and. Eric Frey. He was never convicted of them, but there's a bunch of other ones that we didn't talk about, at least five more cases that they think he could have possibly been involved in. Glennon Ingleman died in the infirmary of the Jefferson City Correctional Center on Wednesday, March 3rd, 1999. He was 71 years old. To me, Gibbs, this is such a strange case. You have a man, a dentist, a professional that was able to talk. He was able to talk. He was, talk women into working with him on plans to kill their husbands for money. And again, the thing

about it for me is, yeah, he got some money from it. But the women always got the lion's share of the money. It wasn't like he got 70% and they got 30. I don't know if the money was even an issue. I don't think it was. I mean, it was probably, it was part of it, no doubt, but there are a lot of people that believe money was not Engelman's motive. They think he enjoyed the planning, the killing, the trying to outsmart the police. Definitely he was in it for the intrigue. Yeah. The whole process, Engelman once told a reporter, quote,

it takes a certain kind of person to be able to kill another human being. I think that's a pretty fair statement. That is a fair statement. You're not really enlightening us with something that we didn't know. I think Stein. But what does he mean by that? I'm that person. Yeah.

I am a true psychopath, which I believe he was. Well, you have to be. To do what he did. Absolutely. His downfall was the fact that he trusted everybody. He was cocky enough that he felt that these women loved him enough. Or, like, as far as his ex. or thought they had a better relationship than they did because he would tell them,

he told Carmen everything, he told Ruth everything. Yeah. And Ruth turned on him. And then Carmen was smart and turned on him for the trial. I think you're right. I think he felt like these women would never betray him. Yeah. And they ultimately did.

But you talk about why did this guy need to do what he did, right? It wasn't like he made millions of dollars. from committing these murders. And look at what he did for a living. He was a dentist. He obviously made pretty decent money. Yeah, I'm sure he had a good practice. I really think it comes down to the planning, the hunt, the chase, the, I'm the smartest

person in the room. I can get away with this and I'm getting my rush from that. Yeah. Maybe not so much as some serial killers do, the rush from the actual murders. I think for him it was more about the process. It's kind of scary because just doing it for the enjoyment. Yeah. You know, enjoyment to see if he could get away with it.

Yeah. Because he thought he could. One of his defense attorneys was quoted saying, his motives were not money. He would treat people for nothing. There were acts of kindness and charity in his background. I think probably his desire to control. individuals was his driving force to make all the little dummies walk in line and sing at the

same time. This is what his defense attorney said. Okay. Well, I think he's right. It's essentially what he did. Yeah. Now, I don't know that all these women were dumb, but he was able to get them to do things that I don't know they would have done had it not been for Glennon Engelman. He talked them into it. It wasn't like they were looking to do it, I don't believe. Right. Yeah. I'm going to call them dumb, but definitely naive. And, you know, they were as guilty.

Well, sure. They knew at the end of the day what they were doing was wrong. Yeah, they had a hand in their husband's desk, no doubt. Can you imagine being these women thinking that it's done? Life moves on. I got my money. And then one day, that knock comes on their door. But that's the thing for me, right?

when you're this type of person, when you're involved in this type of crime, what is the rest of your life like? Because to me, I feel like I would be looking over my shoulder every minute of every day. Eventually they're going to get me. Yeah, I'm just waiting for that not, every knock on the door, every Amazon package that gets delivered. I'm assuming that's the police. That's a lot here too. And that's a lot because we get a lot of Amazon packages. But I'm assuming that every knock is the police. They finally figured it out and I'm going to jail. I feel like that would be a hellish existence. The anxiety that they would have would be crazy.

For most people. Now, if you're a psychopath, I don't know that you even worry about it. No, I don't think you do. But I'm not sure these women were psychopaths. Oh, I think it probably always sat in the back of their mind, haunted them a little bit, right? Or more so. I don't think Dr. Engelman sat around and worried about it

at all. He was moving on to his next plot. Right. He's got a root canal. He's got a crown to do. And then I'm going to figure out who I can kill next. But yeah, wow. But that's it. That's the story of Dr. Glennon Engelman, DDS. Like how you had the DDS. I throw the DDS in there. All right, Gives, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hey, Mike. Hey, Givie. It's Lindsay from Northern Ireland here again. I'm just working my way through your episodes on Gacy. I'm really enjoying those. It just kind of popped into my head and I just wanted to throw this name in the hat.

Mick Philpott now this is a really, really bad dude. He first rose to, I suppose, infamy because he fathered, I think it was about 20 children to various different women and he was actually, there was a documentary made

on him by quite a famous politician. She went and stayed with him and he became known because he has absolutely no desire to work. So he had followed all these children on purpose and was relying on the state benefits and would freely admit that, you know, and he ended up with two women living with him with, I think, six children. The reason I think you could take a look at this guy is because he actually ended up killing five of his children by starting a house fire. So this is not a good

guy at all. So, yes, just so I'll throw that in there, just in case you hadn't heard of him. And also, I am holding out for the episode on Ian Brady. The wrong time, time, second. Awesome. Love the accent. Love it. Love it. So, Ian Brady, definitely on the list.

I mean, I know that one's been done a lot, but people want to hear it from us. So I, and we'll do it at some point. Not as familiar with this Philpott character. Oh, no. It does tire me somewhat thinking about fathering 20 children. Oh, my gosh. Having two women live with me and six children. children. That is... It's a lot.

That's a lot. Yeah. I get a little tired thinking about it. Stress levels going up already. But we'll make sure that he's on the list. We'll do a little research. Hi, Mike. Hi, Gibby. This is Bobby in Buena Park, California. I'm a newer listener. I've been listening for a few months. I think I'm on episode number 68. I absolutely love you guys. I love the witty banter. Not team Gibby or team Mike. I'm team T-Cat for sure. I absolutely love it.

I'm worried about when I'm going to run out of episodes because I've been listening every day in the car. Sometimes at work, I'll sneak and listen. I absolutely love you guys. That's all I have. Just remember to keep your own time ticking and thank for all that you do. Well, thank you, Bobby. We appreciate that. Yeah, that's cool.

I think when you get caught up, you jump over to Unsolved. Absolutely. If you can handle the Unsolved cases. Do it. There's also criminology, another podcast. that I do. There's also Patreon. We have plenty of content out there. Some good episodes on Patreon. There is. There is. What? 16. Yeah. And then every week we put something out. But we have 16 full blown episodes. And video. And now video.

This is Caitlin and I'm actually from West Liberty, Ohio. I just got done listening to the Chipsy Rose episode. I'm more ashamed that it took me this way to find your guys's podcast. but now that I have found it, I'm obsessed. I actually work for the post office, so I spend about seven hours a day in my car delivering mail. So you guys definitely keep it entertaining. Just keep up the good work and keep your own time to get in. Thanks.

Yeah, I wonder if she delivered the mail to our old office. Maybe she could have. You know, postal workers are some of our best listeners because they have a lot of time. Yeah. Now, they're working, but they can listen. They put their little earbuds in. and do what they do. You used to be in the post business.

I did it for a summer. Yeah. A summer that I was home from college. And again, I think I've said it before, one of my favorite jobs of all time. Nobody bothers you. You know,

you say hi to people, but nobody's breathing down your neck, nobody's looking over your shoulder. I loved it. And then you saw us drive by in our brown trucks, and you're like, one day.

One day I'll graduate to be, to get to wear the little short, shorty short brown shorts. That's right. One day. Hey guys, this is Laura Follick. I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and I just want to start out by saying, I love your podcast. It's my favorite podcast to listen to.

Every time I get in my car, goes somewhere because I travel a lot. I always turn you guys on. I just finished listening to episode 154 on Patrick Tracy Burris. And I wanted to let you guys know that actually I lived in Gassney for about 10 years, and I was living in Gassney when this happened. and it was a very scary time. I remember being a stay-at-home mom and having two small children and just being very afraid and, you know, like making sure all my windows were locked and my doors were locked. I knew several of the people who were actually killed by birth. And I actually got cold chills and cried during the episode because it was just very real for me.

and I thought you guys did a very great job of covering the story. And I just wanted to let you know that. And thank you for actually covering that story. And, yeah, you guys are awesome. Keep it up. And I love listening to you guys. And, yeah, keep your own time ticking. Thanks for it, guys.

Bye. Oh, thank you very much for the voicemail. Yeah. You know, we talked about it gives. But some of these cases do get very real for people, whether it's the subject matter or it's the geography, the location where the crimes occurred. You know, some are more real for people than others. When I say real, I mean, you know, it affects them.

Right. You know, more deeply. Gibbs, we had some mailback. That's here. Chavon Van Heerdin sent us some more of those amazing original Boston coffee cakes. Oh, yeah. She sent some last year. They were devoured.

They're beat devoured again. They are very good. Very, very good. Andrea Petty sent in a bunch of very cool Harley chips. And our good friend, Mary Beth Long, sent you in a couple of things on the subject that you've been dealing with. Yeah, very heartwarming. Yeah, very thoughtful, very heartwarming.

So, you know, it's all very much appreciated. Absolutely. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike. And Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.