True Crime All The Time - Drew Peterson

Episode Date: September 24, 2018

Drew Peterson was a police officer in Illinois for thirty years. He was married four times, but he was a serial cheater who jumped from relationship to relationship. He was convicted of killing one wife and suspected of killing another. Through his interviews with the media, he gave the world a glimpse of just what type of person he really was.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Drew Peterson who became one of the most hated men in the world during the height of his media coverage. Much like another hated husband, Scott Peterson, with Drew you have to ask the same question. How could a man murder the women in his life that, at least at some point, he loved with all his heart?You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationHelp support our sponsor Daily Harvest! Go to daily-harvest.com/tcatt and use the promo code tcatt to get 3 free cups in your first orderSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

and welcome to episode 97 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you? I'm good, man. How about you? I'm doing great. Yeah? What number of our episode? 97. 97, man. So we got what, three episodes till the Big Daddy 100. Well, if you're doing the math correctly. We get the chairs, the new chairs by then. About time. We'll have them for that. I'm trying to time it so that they're here. That's the first episode that we'll have them.

We got something special playing for episode 100, but might have something special to tie into it over the next couple episodes. I'm playing around. I've got an idea, though, that I think people will like. We got some Patreon shoutouts. So let's do those. We had Lottie Vist. Hey, Lottie. I hope I'm saying that right.

I know she's from, I believe over somewhere in Scandinavia. I can't remember which country. Tony McAul. Macal. McGal. David Byers. William. Andrea Holder.

Dark Poutine podcast. Poutine. Yep. True crime podcast. If you haven't listened to it, check it out. Gibbs, you and I met Mike Brown at CrimeCon. It's a cool guy. It's a good podcast.

You should check it out. Definitely check it out. Anna Walgren. Mary Osborne, Joe Wong, Janet Palmer, Marion Jacobson, Lucy Burton, Michelle Gia Camaro. Gia Camero. Always wanted me a Camaro. Yeah. Jerry Kennett, Callie Leavitt, Colin Butcher, Clooney Finner.

Cluny Finner, man. What a name. George Clooney Finner. It's like an Irish name. You think? Cluny Finner. I don't know. Or it's a law firm? Clooney Fenner.

Cluny Fenner, but there's only two names. Usually would have at least a third. Amanda Biches Gillian. What's up, bitches? And that's, she put it in parentheses. I'm pretty sure she wanted me to say it, so I'm saying it. Yeah. George Montelvanos.

Montevanos. Yep. I like that name. It's a strong name. Reminds me of Ricardo Montelbon. Montelbon. From one of my favorite shows as a kid, Fantasy Island. De Plain, Die Play.

Love that show. You never know. knew what was going to happen on that show. No. Because it was fantasy. That's right. Salt right after the lowboat. We had Just Josh.

Yeah, JJ. And I think that's an homage to you, Gibbs. He put the word just in front of his name. Yeah. Because he knew you were going to say it anyway. Well, he's right. Cora Fritzinger, April Moni, Cassie Savage, Adam Binkley, Melissa. Just Melissa.

Just Melissa. Andrea? Another just Andrea? Just Andrew. We'll put them all together, man. Katie Halk. Maybe be matchmaking. Chris Stevens.

Hey, Chris. Sunday Austin. It's a cool name. Yeah. I like that. Sunday Austin. Yep. I've known one other person in my life named Sunday.

Was it Saturday? No. Monday? No. Any day of the week? It was Sunday. I know. Ryan Heathman.

Ashley Tolliver Jones. Ooh, Tulliver Joan. And Cindy Bear. Hey, Cindy Barrett. So appreciate that. appreciate all the new Patreon support. And if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Jennifer Rogers. Hey, Jennifer. Been a Patreon supporter for a very long time. And we appreciate that. Been around long time, long time, running around a long, long time. Yeah. I bet you she appreciates that

too. Yeah. We appreciate all the people that support us, the new folks, the ones that continue to support us. We had some great PayPal support as well. I should have sung that. You should have. People are wanting you to say. I'm holding back. We had Jillen Pachron. Jillen Pachron? Allison Harper. Hey, Allison. Stefan Blazzojofsky. Oh, Bajajajal. Mike Hobart. Hey, Mike. And Claude Archie. Say it again.

Claude Archie. Hey, Claude. Claude. Hey, Claude. Hey, Claude. Hey, Claude. A Claude. A Claude. You were trying to get the Archie in there too quick. I know. It went clod on you. its own little name. So Gibbs, we got to do this. We did this on the Patreon episode that we put out yesterday, which is a good episode. It's on Lisa Nowak.

And this is the astronaut love triangle. Yeah. Diaper wearing astronaut. Diaper wearing astronaut. Drove across town. Well, more across town. I was going to say, almost cross country. Country.

To confront her arch rival. Yeah. But on the Patreon episode, we did this. And I want to do it again. So I got an email about how you can improve your Australian accent. So say these words for me like I say. Okay. Rise up lights. Rise up lights. So it sounds like you're saying razor blades in Australian with an Australian accent. Rise up. Rise up lights. Oh yeah. Yep. It really does. Like every time I hear it. You probably can't hear it as much. I forgot when we did it on the Patreon. Rise up lights. It's a good Australian accent. About, whey, rise up lights.

Yeah, I don't know why anybody would be saying, a raise up blades. Oi, rise up lights. If somebody, if you walked into a store in Australia and the guy asked you what you needed. I'd be like, rise up lights. Exactly. Exactly.

Now, I do want to mention that our Patreon merch winner for August was Kerry Kowalsick. So congratulations to Carrie. Rise up lights. Razor blades to you. And because we had the Patreon episode, there is no unsolved episode this week. What? All right, Gibbs.

Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? I am. This is one that's been requested quite a bit. We're talking about Drew Peterson. Yeah. The other Peterson. we are we did Scott Peterson now we're doing Drew Peterson yeah some bad Peterson men a lot of Peters son but this is a guy that you know he was a police officer he was married four times and we're going to get into all the specifics but it convicted of murdering his third wife suspected of murdering his fourth wife and just the way that the guy carried himself the way that He did media interviews.

A lot of people, just thought based on that alone, Gibbs, they didn't like him. They didn't get a good vibe off of him. Kind of cocky? Yeah, kind of cocky, kind of pompous. Thought he was better than everybody else. But we'll see as we go along. Drew Peterson was born on January 5th, 1954 to Donald and Betty Peterson. Three siblings.

And his parents were married. for 38 years until the point that his father passed away. And after his father died, his mother married her deceased husband's boss. Now, that doesn't really have anything to do with Drew. I just thought it was an interesting fact. Drew graduated from Willow Brook High School in Villa Park, Illinois. And he was active. He ran cross country.

We don't have a lot of information on his childhood. But after graduation, Drew joined the army and he got married. And like I said, he was married four times. But his first marriage was to his high school sweetheart, Carol Brown. They dated in high school. They got married in 1974 and were married for six years. But Drew Peterson was a serial cheater. And that's going to become evident as we go through these marriages.

and his first marriage ended when Carol found out that he had been unfaithful. They did have two children together. Peterson spent four years in the army in total, most of that as a military police officer. And that's going to be good training for him because it would lead to Drew Peterson having a 30-year career as a police officer. He was even warded a police officer of the. year award in 1979. After his marriage to Carol failed, Drew dated a woman briefly for a few months, but she would

come out later and say that he abused his position as a police officer to harass her. And this is a claim that is going to be made about Drew Peterson, the police officer, that he did stuff that was not above board. Like he took advantage of his position. Let's put it that way. That's going to come up quite a bit. Peterson married Victoria Connolly in 1982. And they were married for 10 years.

They ran a bar together. They each had children from previous marriages that they were raising. Years later, Victoria would tell a paper that Drew Peterson was, quote, a legend. in his own mind, which is something Gibbs I know has been said about you many times. It's actually fairly accurate. Really? You are a legend in your own mind. I'm not going to respond.

You're not? Not taking the bait. You don't believe that? I am just an average guy, man. Just an average Joe. Average Joe. But she would also say that when the marriage was good, it was great. But when it was bad, it was really, really bad.

Well, I think everybody could say the first part. Right. I think anybody can say when it's good, it's really good. Yeah. I think you're right about that. I think you get in trouble in the last part. You can have some bad moments in your marriage where you can have some really bad moments. And I think she's referring to the real bad.

Yeah. I think for a lot of people, you get some bad, but what you get is great moments and you get a lot of days ticking by. It's not really great. It's not bad. Right. It's good. Yeah. There's that in-between area.

Yeah. I mean, not every day can be great. Can it? Well, it probably could be. All depends. You know, you got a lot of factors. You've got to throw in kids, right? Kids can...

Those darn kids? Yeah, kids work. Okay, so if you didn't have to work... Yeah. And you had millions and millions of dollars. Would every day be great? Yeah, I think so. Unless you just don't feel good.

Wake up, you know? If you have good health, plenty of money. No adversity in your life. It would be beautiful, man. You'd just wake up and go out and hang out by the pool or the beach or the whatever you like to do. Everything would be shit in bed all day and just watch movies. But she would elaborate on the really bad. You know, she said Peterson over the years became extremely controlling.

Now, Gibbs, I'm not sure if this was sleeping with the enemy. level of controlling, but Vicky did claim that Drew Peterson bugged the house in order to keep track of her. That's a pretty high level of controlling. So clocking her time, what she's doing every minute, where she's going, who she's seeing. It sounds like it. Yeah. Well, that would get old, I think, with anybody. You know, if you, every time you do something, then you got to respond and, you know, to explain why, why did you go over here at 7 o'clock today? Just the fact that your husband or your significant other feels the need to bug your house, there's no trust there.

No, so just go ahead and get divorced, man, move on. But that's not the worst part. She would also say that he was extremely abusive, claimed at one point he threatened to kill her and make it look like an accident. And that's important because, of what we are going to talk about down the road with Drew Peterson. Now, during this marriage to Vicky in 1985, Drew was fired from the Bowling Brook police force

after he was found guilty of official misconduct, disobedience, and failure to report a bribe. But Peterson appealed his firing, and he was reinstated the very next year in 1986 when a Will County judge overruled the police commission's decision. So I said, Gibbs, there's going to be a lot of question about his ethics as a police officer. Right. There's a heap of questions about his ethics as a husband.

I said he's a serial cheater. And we know that he was sleeping around while he was married to Vicki Connolly. and the woman that he was seeing behind Vicky's back was a woman by the name of Kathleen Sabio. And after his divorce was finalized from Vicky in 1992, Drew and Kathleen married. They would eventually have two sons together. But you know Gibbs,

this is not going to be a happily ever after story. For one thing, Drew Peterson cannot be faithful to one woman. He can't keep it in his pants, Gibbs. He just can't do it. I don't know why, but he can't. It's hard to do, I guess, for him.

For him? Yeah. I think there's some people how they are, unfortunately. I think there's a lot of people that are cheaters that don't have the willpower to say no. And then there's some of us that don't need willpower because there's no temptation. So there's no need for willpower if nobody's.

Nobody's tempting. Nobody's tempting you. But while he's married to Kathleen, he begins seeing a woman named Stacey Kales, who was 19 years old. At this point, he's 49 years old. So the 49-year-old Drew Peterson swept 19-year-old Stacy Kales off her feet

by lavishing her with attention and gifts and, you know, that sort of thing. There also appears to have been some physical abuse in the marriage to Kathleen. She filed a protective order in 2002 stating that Drew physically abused her. And Drew's son Stephen, who we're going to talk about a little bit later, he would say, you know, years down the road that, yeah, he remembered some pretty vicious fights to the point that, you know, the next morning he would wake up and the house would. be destroyed. It has been reported that there were 18 calls to police about domestic issues

during that relationship between Drew and Kathleen. Yeah, that's probably a good sign of trouble in the making. That seems like a pretty high number. I would think so. So they were married around 10 years or so. That's almost two a year. Yeah. I've never had one in my life. And I've been married 20. That got called some years. I mean, did they? get close to calling. Oh, yeah, I don't know. Did the phone get ripped out of the hand or the wall? No, I would never do that.

No, no, no. I'm talking about Drew. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, not you. Yeah, so you think the number is probably higher of incidents. Yeah. You know, your wife is too scared, man. Oh, yeah, she's scared to death.

She sits in that corner that you have for her and just shakes. Don't get out of the corner. Don't get out of that corner. No. But, you know, been married 20-some years. Never had the cops, had to have the cops come out here and separate us. Oh. I mean, yeah, we've had, we've had a,

our share of verbal spats. Spats, yeah. She went? Usually. Yeah. After I give in, but it takes a while. I'm stubborn. Are you? Yeah. You hold the fight. You're like, I know I'm wrong, but I'm not going to stop right now. I have to hold it as long as I can. Yeah. But 18 and 9 or 10 years gives, it seems like a lot. And like you said, that's a bad sign, right? That's a red flag that something's not going right. Probably don't have a good relationship. If you've got to call the police a couple times a year to come out to your house, you might want to consider. You might want to consider. her finding somebody else. Yeah. Well, they did divorce in 2003. But again, Drew's been seeing this 19-year-old, and he marries her.

He marries Stacey Cales after his divorce is finalized. But even though they were divorced, Drew and Kathleen Savio, they still had to clean up some outstanding financial issues. They had a court date scheduled coming up in a few weeks. to clear these up. But Kathleen Savio would never make this court date. Because on March 1st, 2004, 40-year-old Kathleen Savio was found face down in an empty bathtub at her home in Bolingbrook by some neighbors. She had a massive head wound and was said that her hair was soaked with blood. The wound was described as a one-inch gash to the back of her

head. When the autopsy results came out, they stated that Kathleen died of drowning. A forensic pathologist also concluded that her head wound was most likely caused from a fall. So she slipped in the tub, hit her head and drowned. That's what they're saying. Okay. Which would mean to me that at some point, they thought there was water in the tub, unless they're saying that she drowned in her own blood or something like that, I couldn't actually find that part. But it's, it's part of the mystery that comes out later, right? Where was there no water in the tub when she was found? Other than the fact that this one was in a bathtub, kind of eerily similar Gibbs to the Kathleen Peterson case. You know, Kathleen Peterson, Michael Peterson, there's the Peterson name. You know, we did this one on

unsolved, she also had, you know, pretty massive head wound to the back of her head. And it's one of those mysteries of like, you know, how did that happen? Well, let's put it this way. A lot of people don't think it's a mystery. But in this case, the case of the death of Kathleen Savio, it was mishandled from the very beginning, from Jump Street, 21 Jump Street. You really like that, didn't you? I do. I used to watch that show all the time. Who are you? You, uh... That was Johnny Depp, of course.

You sure? Yeah. You weren't the other guy? No. The big guy? Yeah. No. Or the other guy.

How about the guy with the dark hair? You just keep saying the other guy. There was like four or five guys. I don't know. Yeah, the Depp? I know who you're talking about. And the Greco. Grico.

Yeah. Richard Greco. Yeah, Richard. Yeah. Greco Romeo. Sorry. Sorry. I'm always sorry that I take us down another path.

But again, case mish handled. So for one thing, Gibbs, they didn't collect evidence from the bathtub or from Kathleen's bottom. Well, that's not good. Because I think they're going into this thing just automatically assuming she slipped, she fell. He's a police officer. He's a police officer. That's going to come into it too. Yeah.

You know, it was said that the death investigator was at the scene for less than 20 minutes. So between 10 and 20 minutes is all he spent even. looking at things. Police were aware of, but they didn't dig deep into Kathleen's repeated claims of domestic abuse. So police knew that, though. They knew, well, they had records of the 18 calls. There's no doubt they knew. And in what is probably some deadly foreshadowing, they interviewed Stacey Peterson, formerly

Stacey Cales, now married to Drew, with Drew sitting right next to her. And it was Stacey that provided the alibi for Drew Peterson for that time period around the time that Kathleen Savio died. So a couple of months later, they have a coroner's inquest. And the jury was told that Kathleen Savio had a million dollars in life insurance. But the beneficiary, were her two sons. So Drew wasn't getting any of that money. But they also learned that Savio was set to get the couple's $300,000 home in the divorce settlement.

So there is some monetary motive there. A state police officer testified at this inquest that Drew Peterson could not account for his whereabouts during this period of time leading up to Catholic. death, but the jury weighed the evidence and they concluded that Kathleen Savio's death was accidental. So Drew Peterson was free and clear, at least for the time being. Yeah, you got lucky? Maybe. Maybe. We're going to find out. We know he's not free and clear now, right? Or we wouldn't be talking about him on. Exactly. True crime all the time. All right, Gibbs. Let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsor Daily Harvest. Now, everybody's back to school. My kids are back to school. My wife

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So go to daily dash harvest.com. Enter our promo code T-Cat to get three cups free in your first box. That's promo code T-CAT for three free daily harvest cups at daily-dash harvest.com. Daily-dash harvest.com. So now we're talking about this relationship between Drew and Stacey Peterson. And it started out good. But don't most relationships Gibbs start out good? Always, man. Or they wouldn't start.

Yeah, they wouldn't be the honeymoon phase. Yeah. I think his relationships with the other women started out good. But as the marriage to Stacy progressed, she began confiding in friends that she was fearful of Drew. She told friends that he was mentally abusive and that she was planning on ending the marriage just weeks before she disappeared. Not good. Not good at all. So his ex-wife has died and his current wife is missing.

It's not a good scenario for anyone, but the last time anyone heard from 23-year-old Stacey Peterson was October 28, 2007. And very quickly, Gibbs, by the next month, Drew Peterson was named by the Illinois State Police as a suspect in her disappearance. So it didn't take long for him to, you know, be on their radar. Now, of course, he was the husband. is probably the first one looked at. Of course, normal.

Normal policy. But let's break down a rough timeline of that day. So there was a neighbor, a friend of the Peterson's, that while on her way to the grocery at about 9.40 a.m., she saw both of their cars parked in the driveway. So Drews and Stacey's. About 10.15 a.m., a friend called Stacey's. to talk about meeting later that day.

And they made some plans. Drew would say that he woke up around 11 and noticed that his wife was gone. And he assumed that she had left to go paint a house in a neighboring town. You know, she did do some painting. She did some painting with her sister. I think she was scheduled to paint a house with her sister. At 11.55 a.m. just before noon, that same neighbor.

from before is coming back from the grocery. And this time sees only Drew's GMC Yukon Donali parked in the driveway. That neighbor tried calling Stacey's cell phone close to 2 p.m. that day. And then you also had Stacey's sister Cassandra who tried to call Stacey a bunch of times on her cell phone, but could not reach her. Drew Peterson would state that Stacey called him around 9 p.m. that night and told him that she was leaving him for another man. Around 11 p.m. that night, Cassandra drove to the Peterson house where one of Drew's kids told her that the pair had a big fight that morning and that neither of them were in the house. They were both gone. So she was extremely worried.

She got in touch with the neighbor and had her call Drew Peterson. And the neighbor was able to reach him by phone. The neighbor said that when he answered the phone, he was out of breath. And she could hear him putting his keys in the ignition of the car. But I guess Gibbs, when she asked him where he was, he said he was at home, that he had been out looking for Stacy, but now he was home. So she wasn't buying it because she could. hear what was going on in the background. And Cassandra doesn't give up on this. She drives back out to the Peterson home around 2.30 a.m. the next morning. By this time, both cars are in the driveway.

She probably thought that was a good sign. You would think that she's seeing her sister's car in the driveway. She has a male friend with her. So she has this guy call Drew on his cell phone. And the guy asked Drew where Stacey was, and Drew says that she left him. He goes on to say that she took $25,000, took her car to the airport, and then flew out to either Jamaica or the Bahamas. So whatever good feeling she may have had by seeing the car in the driveway, it's now gone. And I think she's getting tired of this. Well, I would think so, trying to hunt it down, trying to get some answers.

there's everything seems to be BS. Nobody's buying what this guy's saying. And at some point she obviously, she has enough. I think she thought he was full of shit. And she called the Illinois state police about 4 a.m. to report her sister missing. So I think Gibbs,

as they would in any situation like this, the authorities are searching for Stacey. There's volunteers that come out. They begin helping with the search for, Stacey Peterson, but nobody finds anything. In particular, they were searching for a large plastic container that they believed was removed from the home by Peterson and one of his relatives. And this is kind of a very strange thing that comes out pretty quickly. You know, this relative was reportedly hospitalized for a suicide attempt after helping Drew remove this container.

Allegedly the relative told a friend late that night that the container was warm when he touched it and he was afraid that he had just helped Drew Peterson dispose of Stacy's body. Wow. That's haunting. It is haunting. So go back to the timeline. You know, it was reported that Drew picked up this relative around 7 p.m. that night. They went to a coffee shop.

And at some point, apparently Drew gave this person his relative a cell phone. And he told him, don't answer it. So very strange. Yeah. First of all, why are you leaving me at a coffee shop with a cell phone that I'm not supposed to answer? So setting up an alibi because it's pinging off the towers. Maybe. But the cell phone rings.

And this relative said that the caller ID came up as Stacy. So to your point, Gibbs, you know, could this have been the 9 p.m. call that we referenced in the timeline where Drew said Stacey called him to say she was leaving with another man. Right? So he goes, calls from her cell phone. phone. Yeah. And a different cell tower. And yeah, to his own cell phone proving that she did call him.

Now remember, this guy's a cop and has been a cop for a very long time. So he has some knowledge on how to make things. He's got a lot of knowledge. Drew supposedly went back to the coffee shop, picked up the relative, and that's when they went to the house to dispose of the container. You know, it was said that the two men went to an upstairs bedroom. and removed a large, sealed, four foot long rectangular plastic container, and they put it in Drew's SUV.

Peterson then dropped off this relative around 10 p.m. And I guess Gibbs, there were neighbors that also reported seeing Drew Peterson and another man hauling out a big container from his house that night. They sent dive teams to search. this was called the sanitary and ship canal, but they didn't find anything. So in the meantime, Drew Peterson is talking to the press, which I think for a guy like him, I mentioned it up front. I don't think it was a good idea. He doesn't come off very well. He comes off as though he didn't care at all about his wife or the fact that no one could find her. And he wasn't shy about

talking to the media. Now, he was gruff and sometimes he would say, hey, go away. Right. But then the next thing you know, it's like he's trying to get in the spotlight. He talked to the local media in Chicago, but also went on national shows as well. I've talked to you before. So I got kids in the car you, Lawrence. We're not shooting the kids, too. I'll talk to you. Please go home. Thanksgiving is the next couple of days. Please go home. Please leave me along. Please don't get in bowed to my little world. Folks, this is the holiday season. I know at least five families that are losing their homes that are in this area.

You probably should put maybe a little bit of effort into saving these people and their families or reaching out to your fellow man. If someone needs a shoulder to cry on or they need a meal for their families, you guys should be maybe putting a little more effort into doing that rather than harassing my family. Folks having a good day. Were you ever physical with her? Never.

Never. So those stories are totally untrue. Correct. You know, I'm a police officer. Right. And I don't work for the phone company or the power company. And as a police officer, we don't have the same ability to do things as the common person. If I get involved in a domestic situation where I'm physical with a wife, I'll lose my job.

And I would never even care to even become close to risking that. And I kind of challenge anybody out there to find anybody that has ever even seen me. mad. So you don't have a temper. No. I'm in love with Stacey. Very much so. Think she might be alive? I do. So there's some snippets there of encounters that Peterson had with local media in the beginning. And then you hear him on Larry King, you know, talking about that he's never been physical. Well, he did have 18 calls with his previous wife. You know, the one thing that that got me was him saying if he was physical with his wife, he would lose his job as a police officer. Well, what happened on those 18 calls?

Was it the fact that he was a police officer? And they said, oh, well, you're a police officer. So nothing happened. Yeah, you wonder. You mean. Yeah, I don't know the outcome of those 18 and I don't know whose fault it was. And I don't know any of that. But.

And then Gibbs, what really got me was, you know, you're hearing talking to local reporters saying, you know, why are you bothering me? There's five people in this neighborhood that have lost her homes. You should be helping them. He didn't say, you should be out looking for my wife or trying to, you know, doesn't that seem like the logical thing to say? Yeah. Why aren't you trying to find my wife?

Right. You're not going to find my wife standing in my front yard. Right. Taking pictures of me and my family, but he doesn't say that. I don't know what to make of that, but. I thought it was interesting. Yeah. And then I have a little bit more I want to play of him talking on Larry King

because I think it's important. Don't know. I don't know. We got information that she drowned in the bathtub. I was working. I was a watch commander at the police department. And the previous night, I believe it was, she failed to respond at the door to allow me to bring the children home.

The children were with me for the weekend. That was unusual for her. So I started calling her on the phone, and I started questioning with the neighbors, and they were also alerted because it was unusual for her. I had neighbors go into the house, and they found her dead in the bathtub. For many years, you know, my children and I, we've been believing that, you know, she died in a household accident. I would imagine that the first autopsy, the fresh one, would be the most accurate,

but powers to be are coming up with some new decisions on it. And we won't really know for sure until, you know, we have a chance to go ahead and review that decision. So a little foreshadowing there. But I wanted to play it because he's talking about his, you know, previous wife that died, his ex-wife, Kathleen Savio. But it rolls in nicely to this. So you have the disappearance of Stacey Peterson.

The fact that Drew Peterson is, is the prime suspect. And I think Gibbs, that leads authorities to reexamine the events surrounding Kathleen's death. In November 2007, they exhumed the body of Kathleen Savio. Now, they had to wait until February 2008 for the findings to be released, but when they were, they ruled Kathleen's death a homicide. The report noted that Savio died of drowning after being strangled.

and it also said that the original photos showed scratches and abrasions that should have been taken into account in the first autopsy. But remember, we talked about it. This was not a well-handled investigation into the death of Kathleen Sabio. And actually, I think Michael Bodden, the forensic pathologist, was even involved in this one. We talked about him recently in the case of Lemuel Smith in New York, but I think he was involved in this case as well in this second autopsy. The second one. So it's late 2008.

Police are getting close to charging Drew Peterson. And you heard him talk about it at the end of that clip. You know, they're coming out with this second autopsy. Things aren't looking good for him. So what does he do? He gets engaged for a fifth time to a 23-year-old woman. Five times, man. And always goes like 30, 40 years younger.

I don't get it. It's crazy, man. I mean, he wasn't a horrible looking guy, but he wasn't George Clooney. No. At all? No, not at all. I'm just thinking five times, man. Five times, married four times, would have probably been married a fifth.

But thankfully, this woman's father stepped in and talked some sense into her. I don't know exactly how the conversation. went Gibbs, but as fathers to daughters, you know, to girls ourselves. Right. I'm assuming it went something like, do you understand what the hell you're doing, living with a man who is suspected of killing multiple wives? Yeah. What are you thinking?

Yeah. What are you thinking for sure? I'm assuming it went something like that. But either way, it worked. However the conversation happened, it worked. this woman moved out of the house. She was actually living with him. And it's probably a good thing.

Who knows if something would have happened to her. But another thing happened during that time frame as police were closing in. So it's 2008 still. The Illinois General Assembly passed a measure that would quickly become known as Drew's law. So essentially, it allowed a judge to admit here. say statements if a prosecutor can prove a defendant may have killed a witness to prevent him or her from testify. So this is really important because you think about hearsay, right? Most of the time hearsay evidence, hearsay testimony is not let in. You have to believe this was a preemptive

strike by the prosecution knowing what was about to come because this measure or law or whatever it was was actually put forth by the prosecutor. So my assumption is Gibbs, he knew that he was about ready to bring this case against Peterson. Yeah. And he knew it was going to be very circumstantial and he was going to need this hearsay evidence where basically it was Kathleen and Stacey talking to others and telling them things. well now they're either dead and or missing. So that's where this law would come in real handy. Peterson was indicted for the murder of Kathleen Savio and police arrested him on May 7th,

2009. And this might be a case Gibbs of, you know, be careful what you wish for. Peterson had been playing around with the media. He had essentially been taunting the police through the media. saying, hey, come and get me. Well, hey, they came and got him. Yeah, they did. So be careful what you wish for.

Exactly. Now, around the same time that he was indicted and arrested, a woman's body was discovered along a riverbank near his house. And that, you know, had to have caused a big stir. The problem that the police had was in identifying the body because it was missing ahead, missing arms and missing skin. So you're not getting any dental records because there's no head. And it makes it much tougher to get DNA due to the lack of skin.

But they eventually got it. And they figured out that it was not Stacey Peterson. But you know, Gibbs, they had to have thought that, man, we got it. This is her. We found her. But it wasn't. I could imagine how that felt, though. Especially waiting the, you know, however many weeks it took to get the DNA results back.

Yeah, it just would have been the frustration level. It would have been high after the fact. Absolutely. Now, the trial of Drew Peterson would take some time to get to. There was a lot of legal wrangling that had to go on. And a lot of it was around this Drew's law and the statements that had been made by Kathleen and Stacey to others. the attorney spent two years battling over these statements made by both Kathleen and Stacey to other people. And a lot of them were about their fear of Drew Peterson.

The prosecution wanted to be able to introduce these statements that would normally be considered hearsay because neither woman that made them could take the stand. But it wouldn't be until 2012 that the court ruled on what was be called Drew's Law. And they said that some of these statements could be used at trial. And that was huge to the prosecution because, you know, like we said, they didn't have any physical evidence. Right. In their case against Drew Peterson. And that's tough. You know, we don't have physical evidence, man.

Oh, it is. I mean, when you're working on purely, you know, circumstantialial. and hearsay and, you know, no direct evidence. Yeah, I mean, it is. You got to work your rear end off. It's difficult for sure. Now, leading up to the trial, the assistant states attorney guy by the name of John Connor, I'm not the guy from the Terminator?

It is. John Connor. John Connor. This guy was quoted as saying, timing is everything in this trial. The trial is going to come down to whether the jurors accept the prosecutor's argument that the injury sustained by Kathleen Savio could not have been the result of fainting or of that type of fall. The prosecution was going to set out to argue that there was no way her death just weeks before this trial with Drew Peterson to settle their divorce property issues was a random act. You know that doesn't make him look good.

No, it can't make him look good. Happens just weeks before they're getting ready to go to trial to finalize the financial portions of their divorce. Well, you know what happens if Kathleen Savio dies? Well, of course, he gets it all. A lot of his financial problems are solved. So what they do have is motive. They may not have physical evidence, but they definitely have motive and they have a lot of circumstantial evidence. His trial would begin later that year, and he pleaded not guilty to first-degree murder charges.

They had about 70 witnesses testify at his trial. Will County State's attorney James Glasgow told the jury that Kathleen Savio was murdered by Drew Peterson and that he staged it to look like an accident. A former co-worker of Drew's testified on the stand that Drew Peterson offered him $25,000 to kill Kathleen. This happened just before she died. And he went on to tell the jury that Peterson told him he wanted her taken care of because she knew a secret about him that could get him kicked off the police force. Really? 25,000.

To kill someone. Seems low. very low. I don't know what hitman rates are like, but $25,000 to take someone's life. I mean, there's no amount of money. Don't get me wrong. No, but if you're going to do it, I mean, you want to, like, if you're going to could potentially get gotten put away for life, you would think you'd want to make it worth your efforts as wrong as that sounds. I'm just saying, well, we know you charge a lot more, but you don't have to brag about it. Nothing, nothing under 100,000. Give me's got his standards. But that's the same. But that's the same. But that's, you know,

the other thing I don't get. You want to have someone killed. You're just going to go up to like a coworker and say, hey, you want to kill my wife for $25,000. Can you do it for me? I know you need a new car. I give you $25,000. I'll leave the front door unlocked. You are taking a hell of a chance. Yes. Yeah, you don't know if he's going to turn you in right away. Now, this guy didn't. He didn't go to police. Maybe he just thought he was kooky, man. Yeah. But there again, Kathleen's Savio had been dead for quite a while before this trial started. So he had a number of years to come forward. To think about it and maybe he just said, I need to do the right thing. Yeah. Or maybe he thought, I'm the one that knows. And if I don't say it, I might be gone one day. That's true too. So.

And the prostitution called witnesses who told the jury about incriminating statements that Kathleen and Stacey made to them. And obviously, these are the statements that were at the heart of the Drew's law, what they were fighting about. Many of the statements centered around how scared these two women were of Drew Peterson. Stacey's pastor told jurors that she had told him that she woke up in the middle of the night and she couldn't find Drew, that he later showed up near the washing machine in their house with some women's clothing.

And she said that he told her, they are going to think I did it. The defense focused on the fact that Kathleen's death was an accident. It had been ruled an accident and the state had no physical evidence. And they said, you know, in this case, it's been mostly relatives, investigators, and clergy on the witness stand. Drew Peterson's attorney said that. that, you know, it's not going to stand up, this ruling about letting all of this hearsay evidence in. He said it's unconstitutional. And he also said Gibbs, something that does, it actually

kind of makes some sense. He said, the law was passed in 2008. How can it be used in the prosecution of an alleged crime that took place in 2004? I guess he's saying the law wasn't on the books, when the crime happened. So how can you? But how can you let it in? But obviously the judge didn't agree. Ex post facto. You just wanted to say ex post facto?

I did. I'm shocked that you know that. It's awesome. There you go. The defense presented their own pathologist who said that Kathleen Savio's death was an accident. And again, they put up legal analysts arguing that the hearsay evidence in the trial, was like finding a defendant guilty before a trial even begins. They did focus a lot on the hearsay evidence because it was damaging, right?

You had a lot of people saying that Kathleen and Stacey told them bad things about Drew Peterson. So in all Gibbs, it was about six weeks of testimony. The jury deliberated for two days before convicting Drew Peterson of the murder. of Kathleen Savio. And he received a 38-year prison sentence. 38. 38. Kind of a weird number.

It is a weird number. Why not 40? Just let's round. Can we not round up and make it an even number? I like it. I like it like that. Well, 38 is an even number. It is.

You're right. I caught myself afterwards, but I was like, is Gibby going to catch that? Yeah. And he did. But what really got me was, so you know when the convicted person gets to get up and talk,

I guess Drew Peterson just made disparaging remarks about everyone. And it wasn't just, you know, the prosecutors that put him away. I mean, he was badmouting the Savio family. At one point he said, I did not kill Kathleen, to which Kathleen's sister Sue jumped up and said, you're a liar. Yes, you did. I guess one of Kathleen's brothers got kicked out of the courtroom. He just couldn't contain himself.

Yeah, it'd be tough. from yelling at Drew Peterson. I think you and I would have a hard time too being in that situation. Peterson said something directly to James Glasgow, the guy that essentially put him away. And this is going to be very important for something that happens later on. But he said, quote, all aspects of my life have been destroyed,

everything from my personal life to my professional life to my social life. And I tell you this to give you great. cause for celebration when you celebrate the fact that you perpetrated the largest railroad job in the history of this country. As soon as I get a chance, I'm going to get a tattoo on my back from shoulder to shoulder that says no good deed goes unpunished. I found that interesting. I think it's... I would have liked to have been in the courtroom for that. It's not what you typically hear in a courtroom. Well, he's worried about a social life, for sure. Absolutely. Because he probably has a bunch of other 20-year-old.

old's lined up that he's he wants to get engaged to he wants to get married to it's going to be harder for him in prison not saying he can't pull it off but it's going to be difficult it's going to make it more difficult so he goes on this rant and after it's over glasco at one point he says is he done i've never seen a more pathetic display than today so that's what the state attorney says yeah now jurors would later say that it was the testimony from the witnesses that had heard information directly from Kathleen and Stacey that was the most convincing. I mean, I think Gibbs, that's the reason that they convicted Drew Peterson.

They came out and said it. But prosecutors didn't move forward with charging Peterson with the murder of Stacey. In large part, I think Gibbs, because they didn't have her body. It's the tough part. And sometimes that is very tough to charge someone for murder without having the body. It's not impossible. Authorities believe, however, that Peterson killed Stacey while she was asleep in bed. And then he moved her body and disposed of it in an effort to cover it up.

Peterson's mother died in 2012. And they actually let him out of the Will County Jail. They gave him a furlough to attend his mother's funeral. You think that's normal Gibbs? For a convicted killer. You don't see it typically, so I'm surprised. Yeah, that's why I thought it was interesting to point out. I don't know how often it happens.

I mean, I could see if you're in there for a lesser crime, but... That I don't... Convicted of murder, I don't know how many furloughs they're giving, but... I mean, it was his mother's funeral. Well, hey, they didn't let Luke out. Cool-hand Luke. Always with the cool-hand Luke. I was saying.

That's because he was always eating those. damn eggs. Well, you know, there's too many eggs. Those good eggs, man. But it's not over for Peterson yet. He begins to fight to overturn his conviction without much success. An appellate court upheld the conviction in 2015. But even as he's going through the appeal process, he's scheming the whole time.

So he hatched a plan to murder the state attorney who put him away. And apparently he went to an inmate at the Menard Correctional Center where he was being held. And he tried to get this guy to get one of his relatives on the outside to murder state attorney James Glasgow. So again, you just walk up to somebody, whether it's at work or at prison and say, hey, you know what? Will you murder this person for me? Yeah. We'll try to work. Let's see how it goes.

So it didn't work, $25,000 for a guy. guy that he worked with. Apparently, you know, he promised this guy's family that he would, you know, he would get a bunch of money to them. The inmate was a man named Antonio Beast Smith. Ooh. So you're dealing with the beast. Anytime those middle names, the nickname the Beast.

You know what happens. You mess with the bull. You get the horns. You got a beast. You better strike first, man. The only way you would get respect. Strike first. But this guy.

He's not playing around. He goes right to the authorities. And he begins working with them to nail Drew Peterson by recording his conversations that he has with him. So Peterson ends up getting charged with solicitation for murder. And he goes on trial. And the beast testified against Peterson at the trial. And he also said that Drew Peterson confessed to him that he murdered. murdered his fourth wife, Stacey.

It took the jury about an hour to find Peterson guilty, and he was sentenced to an additional 40 years in prison. 40. Got your 40. I like it much better than 38. Well, it just sounds right. Now it's 78, right? Now it's 78.

So in September of last year, the Illinois Supreme Court upheld Peterson's conviction for the murder of Kathleen Savio. And just in January of this year. So, I mean, things have been happening very recently. They declined to rehear his appeal. And he's appealed on a bunch of different grounds, you know, that the trial court should not have allowed those witnesses to testify. That, you know, Stacey Peterson told them Drew was involved in Kathleen's death. He also argued ineffective counsel, which that's almost a given, right?

most every appeal we talk about at some point. Yes. Ends up with ineffective counsel. But he had a top-notch legal team. His argument centered around the fact that his legal team allowed a divorce attorney to testify that Stacey Peterson asked him whether she could use her knowledge of Drew's involvement in the murder against him in divorce proceedings. So again, it's another person that testified at trial.

trial about what Stacey Peterson told him. And this was that Drew Peterson killed Kathleen Savio. She knew it. And she wanted to know if she could use it against him in, in, uh, in divorce. So I guess Gibbs, you, you got to fight, right? You got to appeal. What else you're going to do? What else do you have to do? Well, you're always going to do that. You're going to, you know, run out every option, right? You know, you're not going to want to stay in prison for 78 years. years. Well, but he's really only trying to get rid of the 38, right? He's not getting out of that 40 years. He tried to kill that. He tried to have that state's attorney killed. So even if he gets out of the 38, he still has to deal with the other. He's got to deal with the 40. And chances are he would

never get out of prison. I'm not saying you don't try. You got to try. Now we have to talk about Drew's son, Stephen. So he had a number of kids. Right. He had a number of kids. Right. He was had multiple kids with multiple women. His son, Stephen, was also a cop. But he was fired in 2011 after it was determined that his actions back in 2007 hampered police investigation into his father. The people that investigated this, they said that, you know, during that time frame, he gave contradictory testimony and that he failed to disclose.

important information. And overall, he just, he used very poor judgment. For one thing, he didn't tell investigators that his father gave him $236,000 in uncast checks just after Stacey disappeared. Authorities also said that he took some weapons from his father just before police searched his house, Drew's house. Now, Stephen filed a $10 million lawsuit in 2012. against the Oak Brook PD that fired him.

His marriage failed. He ended up moving into the house in Bowling Brook that Drew and Stacey shared. And he looked after Drew's kids, his, you know, siblings. Or at least his half siblings. I should probably say it that way. Because, you know, a couple of these kids Drew and Stacey had together. A couple of these Drew had with Kathleen Savio. And, you know, his son Stevens looking after all four of them.

But he lost his job. But what he lived off of was Drew's pension payments. Because in a weird, I don't even know what's the word Gibbs, decision. Somebody decided that the pension payments should continue up until 2017. That's when they ran out. But a lot of people, I think, thought that was. strange, that that Drew's pension would be paid out. But it's ironic because it's around the time that the pension payments stopped

that Stephen began telling the media that he believed his father probably killed Kathleen Savio and Stacey as well. Stephen was quoted as saying, over time, you hear enough from police. They can't all be full of shit. I don't want to come out and say it, but I'm sure he did it. In 2012, there was a lifetime movie made, and they got Rob Lowe to play Drew Peterson. So Rico Suave. RICO suave.

Now, Drew Peterson remains the sole suspect in the disappearance of his wife, Stacey, which is still an active investigation. But to date, they've not had enough evidence to charge him, or anyone else for that matter. He is technically eligible for parole in 2018. But would at that point give, be about 127 years old? I would think so, right? Yeah, so the guy's pulled off a lot of things. But living to 127, I don't think that's going to be one of them.

I don't think so either. I mean, he might have had some good luck here and there, a little bit of bad luck. He's not going to live to be 127 years old. No. And the other thing is with this. disappearance of Stacy hanging over his head. They're not going to go out of their way to reduce anything for him. If anything, I would think if something got overturned on appeal, they would make sure that

the other one, the 40 year, ran for the entire time. I would think. And then last, I want to talk a little bit about Stacy's sister. We mentioned her, Cassandra. She's been very active in the search for her sister. but she believes that she knows where her body is. And she thinks it's in the sanitarian ship canal, which I talked about,

you know, earlier on in the podcast. She just thinks that divers missed it when they searched there after Stacey went missing. And there was a lot of stuff online, you know, now there was a lot of stuff from some not so reputable places like the National Enquirer and some of that.

You know, there was some stuff out there that they're still searching. They've got some scans that they think are promising. So there's a chance. There is a chance. There's always a chance for sure. That they could find her. I just saw on the news, I don't know, yesterday, today. I don't know when it was that Lake Tahoe, they recovered a guy from a thousand feet down.

Really? Found him. I don't know how long he'd been missing, but he went overboard. And they found him at the bottom. bottom of Lake Tahoe at a thousand feet. Wow. Using whatever technology. Some type of sonar.

Sonar in a sub or something. I don't know. But it's possible, right? It's possible that they're going to find her eventually. Now, the question is, would they try him for the murder? Knowing that at this point right now, he's most likely never getting out. He's going to die in prison. Would they try him for the murder of Stacey?

And I don't know the answer. to that. I don't know if they would either. That's one of those things that you and I talk about every now and then. It's a decision that comes down to the family, but a lot of times it comes down to money. Yeah. But that's it. That is the story of Drew Peterson. Good one. I like the story. I hate the man. I think he's just an all-around bad guy. I'm sure he has, he had his moments like everybody does, but I don't know, go back to the clips that some of the clips we played, I just didn't get the feeling at all like he was genuine. I felt like he was putting on a show.

I just didn't, I didn't get the warm and fuzzies from this guy at all. No. And it's probably a good thing because if I did, that would mean my radar is severely damaged. Messed up. It's messed up. Best up, man. Messed up radar. All right, Gives, we've got some voicemails. You want to do those? Let's do.

Hi, my king of me. This is Natasha. I wanted to call and give a shout out to my wonderful boyfriend, Jeff Beilecki. It's his birthday on Tuesday. And we are both a huge, fans of the show. So happy birthday, Jeffrey. Surprise. Thanks guys. Have a good one. Keep your own time ticking. So great voicemail from Natasha and Patreon supporter and her and Jeff are huge fans of the show. Well, happy birthday, man. Yeah, so we wanted to play that and then give our own birthday wishes to Jeff.

And it'll be a couple days before his actual birthday, but happy birthday. Absolutely. Hey, Fergalicious. I'm going to for PayPal. This is Joe from Chicago. I just dropped here from 20, and I want you to get yourself some big jerky. Show is fantastic, of course.

One of the general mail things I'm hearing, and people probably think that I am more crazy than the average mailman, which is pretty crazy. But I'm on my route, taking a break, and I just had to call you. I love you guys. TikTok. All right, we love you, too. We think you're better than the average mailman by far.

Absolutely. Number one, you're a true crime listener. That's right. Which you automatically get cool points for that. And then, you know, the support on PayPal, there's some cool points there. We appreciate that. Hey, guys. My name's Tim.

I'm from Seattle. And I'm mid-50s. And so I was raised with the whole Ted Bunny thing. My mom got into it early on. She called it when Ted got arrested the first time on the local news. She's like, okay, that's the guy. That's Ted, you know, the bushy-haired stranger. That's Ted.

Anyway, so she got me going on true crime books. We read, I don't know, I was 10 years old. Not a good idea, but I ended up reading Helter-Skelter in cold blood. And then meanwhile, my mom is blowing me in on all this Ted stuff, where she's like, okay, he's the guy. Anyway, I've been searching for a good true crime podcast, and I love sort and scale, but you guys are a completely different animal for true crime

podcast and I love the humor I love the banter I love all of it and just speaking from it like it's sort of an OG true crime guy going back to the 70s

in Seattle in fact one time my good friend of mine was jogging near where one of the Green River victims was found and the cops kind of stopped and looked at him so yeah that's my personal you know

encounter with the Green River killer through a friend, surrogate-wise. Anyway, love what you do. Keep it going. I take him to go Patreon today. So thanks a lot. And keep your own time ticking. All right.

Appreciate that voicemail from Tim. He said he was in his mid-50s, Gives. He sounded like he was about 21. Mid-50s is a new 21. It is. He has a very young sounding voice. Just like me? Yeah, you do sound younger than what you really are.

You sound about 55. Oh, that hurts, man. That hurts. That hurts bad. couldn't help it, man. I can't resist it. To them all the way to, thank you guys so much. Please keep it up and please keep the podcast coming. All right. Great voicemail.

We'll keep them coming, Gibbs, as long as people keep listening. Keep listening. Keep telling your friends and family. It's kind of like Sprint, you know, friends and family. Tell your friends and family. Can you hear me now? Yeah. So I always get a kick out of, so you've got a spouse or a significant other. One loves true crime. The other one doesn't understand it.

The one that doesn't understand it is oftentimes just a little bit fearful of the one that is really into true crime. And I think that's natural because you're learning a lot from the podcasts and the shows and, you know, you cheat on me and I'll, uh, I catch your tallywacker off. And I know how to do it and I know how to get away with. Tallywacker. Tallywacker. Yeah. I went with tallywacker. Tallywacker. I haven't used that one in a while.

tallywacker or I'll glue it to the side of your leg that's a lot of glue that's a good comeback hey guys my name is Ethan I live in Houston Texas and I started listening to the show on July 4th of this year and just now finished an episode you released on Sunday I listened to all of them and I rode and started number one and went through all of them man what a great time I cleaned pools in and around Houston and it's been a long hot summer and you guys has brought me loads of entertainment, so I really appreciate it. My favorite podcast right now by far. I'm going to go start the true crime all the time unsolved as soon as this is done.

My brother, Jerry, turn me on to you, and I'm so glad he did. I had a quick suggestion. I think Ferguson, you're a hunter, so maybe this would be right at your alley, but the one guy, I think it was in Wisconsin that killed the hunters. I'm not real familiar with the story, and I've looked it up on other podcasts. I've never heard another podcast about it, so I thought that might be something you guys could do, and I really appreciate the podcast. I am Team Givie and Team Fergie, so stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

Thanks, guys. All right, we appreciate the kind words, don't we Gibbs? We always do. We always do. I'm actually not a hunter. I'm a shooter. I love to shoot guns and have shot competitively over the years, but I don't actually hunt. I've never actually...

That we talk about. harmed another animal. We did the human hunt. You do not hunt humans, Givie. How many times if I told you this? You're right. I'm sorry. That never said that. All right.

Delete, delete, delete, delete. All right, let's dip into the mailbag real quick. All right. Alison Porter sent me a couple chips from Georgia, which is awesome. Kirsten from Scotland sent us a whole bunch of stuff. You know, curly whirly bars, some other content. Infectionary delights. Oh, tons of them, man.

Which is awesome. And then got to give a huge shout out to David Truitt from Killer Pins. Oh, man. Awesome. He was saying he was going to send us some pins. And I was like, oh, you know, I don't know what they're going to be like. They show up and they blow me away. You know, they have the logo.

They've got a picture of mine has a picture of me. Yours has a picture of you. Yeah. Shrunk down. You can barely tell, but you can see it's us. Right. I'm real buff in mine, which is sweet. Yeah, I notice that.

Potential. There's potential there. It's how I want to look. And then they write like a dream. So, yeah, check out KillerPins. KillerPins.com. Probably easier to find him on Facebook, Killer Pins. But thanks, David, man.

We appreciate that a lot. And I've been using mine all the time. All right, Gibbs. That is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time. We're getting ready for the Hondo. Yes. Big Hundo. And I mentioned that I had an idea.

And I don't want to give it away. You said I already have. But, you know, I've been thinking about mind hunters. We've done some of the killers that were featured in that first season. But there's some left to do. And I was thinking maybe we could string some together. That's my idea. I like it.

So get ready for that. Be ready. All right, everyone. We love you. we appreciate you. Subscribe. Give us a rating if you want. Tell your friends.

Your mom, your dad. Call your grandparents up and say, hey. If your kids are almost 18, get them hooked now. They're almost 18. Yeah. All right. That is it for another episode of True Crime all the time.

So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.