True Crime All The Time - Dustin and Ginger Jefferson

Episode Date: January 15, 2024

32-year-old Kerry O’Clair-Jefferson was stabbed to death on September 25th, 2013. Her husband Dustin had a motive to kill her, but Kerry’s mother-in-law, Ginger Jefferson, was wrapped up in the case as well. Kerry's relationship with both Dustin and Ginger was said to be extremely volatile by many.Join Mike and Gibby as they discuss Dustin and Ginger Jefferson. The authorities had a hard time figuring out whether it was Dustin or Ginger who actually killed Kerry. They were both charged, and it was up to two separate juries to decide their fates.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise, and donation informationAn Emash Digital productionSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 366 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. How are you? Hey, man, I'm doing okay. How about you? I'm doing all right. Yeah. And we were talking on Patreon, which we do before we start this recording that, uh, you know,

I was fixing a toilet, the flushing mechanism and stuff. And I hurt my back. Okay. And I've been down for like four days. And it's rough getting. old. It is. Yeah. And you're only 29. I know. You know, time is passing quickly and I should be able to fix a toilet without being down on my back for, you know, four or five days at a time. But hey, it is what it is, man. That's why I, I just, uh, leave that the, uh, the old, uh, uh,

toll it's outside. Latrine. You just dig a hole, don't you? Just dig a hole and just put a shed over top of it and just go out there. Shitter's full. That's right. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shoutouts. We had Mel from Australia. What's going on, Mel? Good night. Michelle Wildwyn. Oh, Michelle.

Hi. Tiffany. Hey, Tiffany. Laura K. 428. Thank you, Laura Kay. Marie Bezenson. Bezotson.

Scott O. Hey, Scott. Julie Moore. What's going on? Julie? One of your favorite actresses. Oh, yeah. Katie O'Donnell jumped down to our highest level.

Thanks, Katie. D.H. What's up? Designated hit up. Anna Elmore. Hey, Elmore. Sandra Wiggins. Wiggins with the Wiggle.

Yep. Yeah. Elizabeth Dutty. What's going on, Dutie? And last but not least, Christina Well, thank you, Christina. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Rachel Heather Lee Lang. Man, that's a big name, but thank you, Rachel. It is.

It is. So we have an episode out right now on Unsolved, where we're finishing up with part two on the Axeman of New Orleans. It's good. Yeah. So make sure you jump over and check both of those out. Start with part one. All right, buddy.

Are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Dustin and Ginger Jefferson. 32-year-old Kerry O'Clair Jefferson was stabbed to death on September 25th, 2013. Her husband, Dustin, had a motive to kill her. But Carrie's mother-in-law, Ginger, Jefferson. was wrapped up in the case as well. So we'll get into all the particulars.

Carrie O'Clair Jefferson graduated from South Tama High School. She attended Marshalltown Community College and had previously worked at the Iowa Veterans Home. Carrie was married to a man named Dustin Jefferson. Their marriage was described as volatile in court documents. At the time of Carrie's murder, the two were living separately. And volatile is never good, right, when you're talking about a marriage. No, you don't want that in your relationship. People argue.

People have fights. We argue all the time. Sure. But I would never say it's volatile because to me, that is rising to a level of animosity that is really almost untenable. Yeah, plus you know I'm always right. That's true. So at some point, I do have to. concede. Yeah. To your big brain. It was said that both Dustin and Kerry had criminal records,

but his convictions were for more serious crimes. Carrie had charges for drunk and driving and marijuana possession from 2005 to 2013. She spent a total of 89 days in jail. So those aren't good, right? Drunk driving and that's not good at all. Now marijuana possession, I think people are looking back on that much differently today. Oh, for sure. I mean, it's legalized in so many places. Right. And so was it a crime back then? Yeah, it was. We've also talked about how in California, they were locking people away for 20 plus years. Oh, yeah. For possession of marijuana, three strikes, all that stuff. Dustin was convicted of third degree burglary in 1995. in 99, he was convicted of going armed with intent. That's not good.

No, that's not good at all. Then in 2002, he was convicted of assault causing injury to a peace officer. He was sentenced to two years in prison for this offense. And that's definitely not good. Anytime you're talking about, you know, injuring a police officer, I'm surprised that he only got two years. Must have been kind of minor. like he's not taking shots at him or didn't hit him, you know, with a bullet or or something like that. We don't know the particulars, but I agree with you.

It must have been fairly minor to get that low of a sentence. In April 2010, Dustin was arrested for domestic abuse assault causing bodily injury. And Kerry was the victim in this case. And a no contact order was issued. Dustin entered a plea bargain and served seven days in three days. jail. Kind of a cooling off process, I think. Well, it is, but okay, that seems light to me. I don't know what the normal type of sentence for this is, but seven days in jail, yeah, I'm with you. That's almost like, hey, just sit in here and cool off type of thing rather than a real punishment. But I also think

you're getting a sense of why this relationship was considered volatile. I mean, we're talking about bodily harm here domestic abuse in 2011 Dustin was convicted of willful injury causing bodily injury he was also cited for assaulting an inmate at the county jail Dustin suspected that the inmate stole this calling card to use his phone minute those are issues that will cause a fight in jail they'll be taking my calling card well I think there are a lot of things that cause fights in jail but I do believe the stealing of property has to be, you know, near the top because if you think

about what inmates have, it's very little. So if you're talking about things that they were able to purchase at the commissary or whatever you call it, cigarettes, which I don't think a lot of places allow you to smoke anymore, but phone minutes. Okay, these are very important things when you don't have a lot. That's right. Don't eat my ringdings either. Exactly. In March 2013, Dustin was accused of a parole violation. His parole was revoked in April. So, I mean, I think you can easily see, right? This guy had a history of getting in trouble. He had a hard time kind of towing the line because even when he got out on parole, he couldn't kind of stay straight and his parole was revoked. Carrie's mother, Marlene O'Clair, later test of

that Kerry and Dustin had an on-again, off-again relationship. And alcohol had a negative influence on the relationship, which was mentally and physically abusive. She said Carrie wanted to divorce, Dustin. I mean, I think alcohol can do that. We know that. It can change people. It can and it can make them both verbally and physically abusive.

Well, and her mother saying she wanted to divorce, Dustin. it doesn't seem like a stretch to me, right? She, you know, filed for a restraining order. There were multiple incidents of domestic abuse. You could see why maybe she wanted to get away from him and not be married to him anymore. According to the newspaper of the courier, she said, when they loved, they loved, when they hated, and then she just left it there. Yeah, but I can see where she was going, right?

I mean, it's just like, why be in a relationship like that, though, right? I mean, when you're together, things are in sync, man, you couldn't love somebody any more than this person, right? But you're just waiting for that bomb to go off, right? Waiting to step on that mind. And all of a sudden, it's the worst of the worst, right? And you can't stand the person and they can't stand you. And you're thinking, why the hell are we even in this relationship together?

But then maybe it turns around very quickly. and can go back and forth, whereas other relationships are much more steady. They don't have maybe the highs, but they definitely don't have the load. Dustin and Kerry's marriage became extremely volatile because a warrant was issued against him for five counts of third degree sexual abuse.

The sexual abuse charges involved a 12-year-old girl. Yes. At that point, I think, Carrie was probably like, I'm done. Absolutely done. I think she was thinking about, you know, trying to get out earlier, but this was the final kind of straw. And we talked about the fact that, you know, they, they were separated.

Dustin was living in Tama, Iowa, with his cousin Carlos Jefferson and his girlfriend, Trudy Mathis, who was also friends with Carrie. Trudy spoke with law enforcement and said that Carrie and Dustin fought from June to August 2013 about his involvement with the girl. In one confrontation, Carrie smashed Dustin's cell phone against the wall because it allegedly contained photos of the girl. Dustin smashed her cell phone in retaliation. So again, that word keeps popping up. This is volatile stuff.

It is. It's very heated, but can you blame Carrie? No, not at all. If, you know, he's showing her his cell phone and there are pictures of a 12-year-old girl. And we don't even know, you know, these could have been nude pictures. Yeah, inappropriate. And I mean, I think that would just have enraged her even more. Core documents state that Carrie called Dustin a pedophile.

and told Trudy to look at his phone as proof. She called Dustin a sick guy. Well, if he did what he did, he is a sick guy. Yeah, no, absolutely. The thought of this man, this grown man, having any type of sexual activity with a 12-year-old girl is stomach churning. Nasty, nasty, nasty stuff. There was evidence that Kerry might have testified against him in the sexual abuse case.

However, on August 24th, 2013, Carrie made a Facebook post about her and Dustin's ninth wedding anniversary. They still had somewhat regular contact with each other. And Carrie often visited him at Carlos Jefferson's house and Tamma. So this is somewhat of a strange situation. You know, we detailed out the what was called mental and physical abuse. Right. Domestic abuse.

you have these charges of inappropriate contact with the 12-year-old girl. And then you have, you know, her saying she wants a divorce, wants out of the relationship, but you also have her keeping in contact or you have the two. Right. Staying in contact with each other. It's very strange. It's almost like I hate you, but I can't stay away from you maybe. Yeah.

I don't know. That's what it seems like. I'm going to post a picture about me and you. having our ninth anniversary, you know, yeah, I think he was probably able to do a lot of mental damage. Yeah, and he could have been a very manipulative guy. Again, we don't know all those details. The one thing I do know is that for some people, you know, when you are really in love, even though you know a person's not good for you, even though they hurt you, sometimes it's hard to stay away from someone. It is. It's hard to walk away. Another person,

problem in the marriage was Dustin's mother, Ginger, Jefferson. Ginger had a criminal record for aiding or sponsoring a gathering for marijuana use, interference, trespassing, and domestic abuse assault. So she had a rap sheet, you know, of her own. And by all accounts, Ginger and Carrie did not get along well. Carrie's mother, Marlene, testified at Ginger's later trial that it was unusual for Ginger to be at the couple's home because she didn't see them often. Now, is that unusual? I do think there are a lot of wives that don't get along great with their mother-in-laws. Yeah.

It's always been the ongoing joke, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, nobody wants to see somebody take their baby away from them, however old he is. I mean, that's always been the thinking. I can say my wife gets along great with my mom. Yeah. They talk all the time. But I don't think it's true for everyone.

Ginger was living in Toledo, Iowa with family until August 2013. She was kicked out for unspecified reasons and was living with other family members at the time of the murder. So I've got to question that. What do you have to do to get kicked out of a family member's home? Well, I mean, back then, if she was using marijuana, maybe they didn't like that and they've told her to quit using it. That could be. Because kids around or something. And she's like, nope, I'm still going to smoke my joints when I want.

You know, they might have been all right. Well, you're out of here. Or she might have had some unsavory characters coming over that they didn't like. There's a lot of different things. When it says unspecified reasons, we're really just kind of left to speculate. Carrie's friend Stephanie Kyle told the local paper the Gazette that Carrie and Ginger had what she called spats, but they didn't really get physical. It was more verbal.

Okay. Well, I guess that's good. I mean, it'd be really bad if you're getting physical with, you know, mother-in-law, daughter-in-law. But verbal's bad enough.

I would say those verbal fights can be pretty brutal, you know. A lot of nasty things can be said. about each other. There's a part of me that thinks sometimes the verbal can be worse than some of the physical. Yeah. Just because, you know, people can really cut you down to your core. Yeah. And that stuff will stay with you.

Oh, yeah. These are some things that you will never get out of your mind. Now, physical altercations aren't good. Don't get me wrong. No. But that, like you said, those verbal things, they stick with you. And even after you get back to normal. relationship to that person.

Those are still stuck on your head. Yeah, they're always maybe in the back of your mind or maybe in the front as well. Stephanie didn't think Carrie was fearful of Ginger and described their relationship as that normal in-law hatred that some people have. Okay. I get that. I mean, I kind of talked about it. Now, is it normal? No, I don't think so. I think the majority of people get along well with their in-laws and vice versa. But we do know. that some people just can't and don't. Shortly before she died, Carrie told Trudy Mathis that Dustin might hurt or kill her

because of what she found on his phone. She seemed afraid. But then the following day, she didn't want to talk about it. Carrie spent the night with Dustin at Carlos Jefferson's house on September 24th, 2013. On September 25th, Ginger Jefferson and Dustin's sister, Sahara Martinez,

came over to the house. They were drinking together that morning. Okay, a couple of things that are popping out to me. Number one, we're doing some day drinking here. But, you know, really the big one is Carrie telling someone that she believes Dustin might want to hurt or kill her, but then she's spending the night with him. Yeah, Carlos, yeah. That jumped out at me as a little bit odd.

Carrie left the house around 11 a.m. According to testimony from a liquor store clerk. Carrie bought a bottle of whiskey at the store between 11 and 11.30 a.m. The clerk already knew Carrie from previous interactions. She said, Carrie did not have any visible bruises or injuries on her body. And she said she looked really good that day. So that's kind of setting a time frame. Yeah.

And then also the state of Carrie or, you know, what she looked like at that point in time. Carrie's mother recalled that she stopped by to visit between 11 and 1130. She stayed for about now. Carrie seemed like she was in a good mood and was excited about her job interview the next day for a new CNA position. So it sounds like everybody's saying she looked good. She seemed to be okay that day. Yeah. And was in good spirits.

After visiting her mother, Carrie returned to Carlos's house. According to Dustin's police statement, he told Carrie that. that he, Ginger, and Sahara were going out for a drive and asked Carrie if she wanted to come with them. Dustin said, is quoted by State versus Jefferson, and I'm driving. And I'm drunk. So she's all, she's already drunk and she's already mad because I'm driving and she knows I got a warrant. So that's her main thing. Well, I'm calling the cops so you don't drive. You got a warrant. I was like, well, we're going to go for a drive. You want to go.

She said, no, I'm not going to go. And I was like, all right. Well, we're going to go for a cruise. And she said, well, I'm calling the fucking cops because you're driving. And it's hard for me always to read some of these quotes from people because their grammar is so bad. Yeah. I almost can't read it the way it's written.

Yeah. But I mean, I think we're getting the gist of it, which is she's ticked off. He's drunk. Yeah. He wants to drive the car, but he already has a warrant out for his arrest. At some point before 1 p.m., Dustin, Ginger, and Sahara left the house in Sahara's car. Dustin was driving the vehicle. The final hours of Kerry's life were stressful and chaotic.

Between 1 and 2.40 p.m., Carrie made several calls to Dustin and several calls to the Mesquokie nation police department. This was the jurisdiction that issued the warrant. Dustin is a member of the Mesquaukee Nation, which is a federally recognized tribe in Iowa. Kerry called the police at 122 p.m.

and spoke to Officer Joe Holes about the outstanding warrant and possible locations where Dustin could be found. She called Dustin's phone three times between 156 and 2 p.m. All of the calls were brief the longest one lasting just over a minute. So she followed through on her threat.

She did. She told Dustin, if you're going to go out and drive, I'm calling the effing police. Yeah. And that's exactly what she did. At 2.15, Kerry called the police again and asked to be connected to officer holes. He was unavailable. So she was transferred to Detective Craig Carr. Carr had been trying to get in contact with Carrie and Dustin since July.

July 2013 about the sexual abuse charges. So this is interesting because she gets passed on to a detective who wanted to talk to her anyway. And he's like, now I have you on the phone. He wants to talk to Dustin too, but about something completely different. At 222, Carrie called Dustin again, but the call only lasted 16 seconds. That same minute she called the police, asked to speak to the defendant. Detective Carr was put on hold and disconnected the call. Carrie called Dustin again at 2.24 p.m.

And then at 233, she called the police three more times. However, at least one of the calls was accidental. The first call was the longest and lasted just under a minute. The administrative assistant at the police department recognized Carrie's voice. It sounded like she was arguing with two other women. Carrie shouted that they were going to jail for what they had done. The other two voices were also shouting, but the assistant couldn't understand exactly what they were saying.

There's a lot of things going on. Yeah, and I think that's why, you know, I said it was chaotic. It was stressful. She's making a lot of phone calls. She's talking to Dustin multiple times. Now, we don't know exactly at this point what she's saying. My assumption is at some point she told her. him, that she had been in contact with the police. And maybe she even told them that Detective

Carr wanted to speak to them about the sexual abuse charges. Carrie eventually realized that the assistant was speaking to her and trying to get her attention. She identified herself and apologized for the quote, ass dial according to state versus Jefferson. Good old ass dial. I think most of us call it a butt dial, but yeah, an ass dial, I guess would be correct as well. At 2.35 p.m. Carrie called again and spoke to Detective Carr. He would later testify that Carrie asked if Dustin had been arrested yet. She told him to go to Carlos Jefferson's house, but warned that Dustin wouldn't be there long. So again, she is following through with what she said she was going to do. She was going to call the police. And now she's asking if they've arrested him yet. She told

detective car that she would come to the police department the next day to give more details about the sexual abuse case, but she wouldn't tell the whole story until she was divorced. That's interesting. Yeah, it is. In his statement, Dustin said that he and Ginger returned to Carlos's house after their drive, but Sahara wasn't with them. Sahara later testified that at some point in their drive, Dustin stopped the car so that she could use the bathroom outside. She claimed that Dustin left her behind. An officer saw her walking

on the highway the afternoon and took her to get medical treatment for diabetes. So you mentioned it, but there is just so much going on and what really is a very short period of time. You have all these calls made by Carrie. Now we find out that Dustin essentially left Sahara stranded. You got the police wanting to talk to him about the sexual abuse case. And my thought is he knows that by now. That's probably been relayed to him, most likely by Carrie. Dustin told the police that he stayed outside Carlos's house and sat down in front of the garage to drink another beer. Ginger went inside to use the bathroom.

Carrie stuck her head out and told him the police were coming. So if he didn't know it before he got back, he definitely knows. it now at this point. According to Dustin, minutes later, Ginger came outside from the back entrance. Her hands were bloody. She said she hurt Carrie and started running away from the house. Dustin said he was in shock and followed his mother in his car. Not something you probably expect from your mother. No, I wouldn't think so. Or any family member. Oh, yeah. That's actually a pretty good thing to say. Ginger went to the home of Amber Navarro, who lived a block away from Carlos. Amber was in a relationship with Ginger's nephew, Daniel.

So it seems like a lot of these people know each other, you know, in this part of town, they live close to each other. According to Amber, Ginger was upset and intoxicated. She immediately noticed blood on her hands. Her children was home. So she helped Ginger wash the blood off so they wouldn't see it. per state versus Jefferson, Ginger told Amber that she and Carrie, quote, got into it. And that Carrie accused Ginger and Dustin of sleeping together on a gravel road.

Okay, little mother son. Incest. Yeah. On a gravel road. Yeah. Don't know much about that on the gravel road thing. But you do know about the other? No, no, no.

Yeah, okay. I don't think that came out right. No, no. I'm thinking maybe she met, like, they parked the car on a gravel road. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. I don't know about sex on a gravel road, but especially with your mother.

Yeah. There's a lot of weird stuff going on with this family. There is. There is. And it's a lot to keep track in, a lot to digest. Ginger said, she stabbed Carrie twice in the neck. And that before the stabbing, they were, quote, playing around with a nut. playing around or wrestling around with a knife?

Yeah, I don't know what playing around with the knife means. And, you know, as we'll see later on in this case, it's possible that the they meant Ginger and Kerry or that Dustin was involved, right? It's a little tough from the they to figure out exactly who it was. Ginger said she believed Carrie was dead. And she asked Amber to call her, daughter-in-law, Lori Davenport. Both Amber and Lori heard Ginger say, I stabbed her twice in the

neck. All right, not looking good for Ginger. No. Amber called the police to report to stabbing. The police arrived at Carlos Jefferson's house at 244 p.m. to arrest Dustin on the outstanding warrant. Moments later, Dustin pulled into the driveway next to the police car. He said he needed to check on Kerry because she might be hurt or dead. And the police went in and found Carrie in a pool of blood on the floor with two stab wounds to her neck. She was quickly pronounced debt. So, you know, we've gone here from a lot of weird, strange things happening and a lot of chaos and confusion and kind of frantic call. Right. To they go to arrest Dustin on this. And, outstanding warrant and they find Carrie dead. And Ginger has told multiple people that she stabbed

Carrie in the neck. Just trying to think how messed up this Dustin guy is, right? If it's true, that he messed around with a 12 year old. And possibly slept with his mother on a gravel road. It's like, what is going on, man? This guy has no boundaries, no sense of right and wrong. no morals. I mean, this is almost strange, fascinating, hard to take your eyes away from reality show, except for the gravity of it. Yeah. The fact that someone ends up dead, we have the allegations of sexual abuse of a 12 year old girl. Sickening. But the other stuff, you could see kind of playing out in some reality show about a dysfunctional family. Carries. blood was found on the doorframe of Amber Navarro's house and on Amber's shirt, it's believed that

this blood was transferred from Ginger. Now, one thing that I did want to talk about was Amber helping Ginger to wash off the bloodstain. I don't know if at that point she had already been told that Ginger had stabbed Carrie in the neck or not. Because obviously from a investigative standpoint, you wouldn't have wanted her to do that. No, but I also get where she's concerned. Her kids are going to freak out, seeing all those blood on. Yeah. Yeah.

I get that. I definitely get that. Investigators found a folding knife in Carlos's backyard, which they determined was the murder weapon. Dustin confirmed it was his knife. Ginger Jefferson was arrested as a material witness on September 25th, 2013. On September 27th, a criminal complaint was filed again. Ginger charging her with first-degree murder. And I don't know how they couldn't charge her, you know, based on the evidence,

based on the statements that she made to multiple people that she stabbed Carrie in the neck. Yeah, I mean, Alice, could you look at it at this point? Now, you would think in most murder cases, Dustin would be looked at very heavily. You know, he's the husband. They have a volatile relationship. they've been through a lot. She's maybe, you know, wanting a divorce. But it was said that he wasn't considered a suspect in the murder at that point. But he was in police custody and had been questioned.

Well, police probably had him in custody for the other potential charge. Ginger's murder trial started on May 19, 2014. Prosecutor Laura Rohn told the jury that Kerry was going to turn Dustin in. And that was why he wanted her. killed. The state believed Dustin played a bigger role in the murder, but Ginger was the one who stabbed Carrie. Carrie's blood was found on Ginger's t-shirt, jeans and shoe. Her blood was also found on Dustin's clothing and shoes. Now, Ginger's defense tried to shift more of the blame to Dustin. And that's a strategy that we often see, right? Oh, of course. The defense has to shift the blame somewhere. You want to

stir up reasonable doubt. Well, and they were facing quite a bit of evidence against them. You know, the blood on her clothing. That's, you know, you got to try to figure that out. The fact that she told two people that she stabbed Carrie in the neck, okay, how are we going to battle that? Amber Navarro was the state's first witness. She testified that Ginger came to her home with blood on her hands and confessed the

stabbing Carrie. She also added that Ginger wanted the bus ticket to get out of town. Okay, doesn't look good for Ginger? No, I think that's pretty damaging testimony. Navarro said she called Carlos Jefferson to warn him not to let his children into the house after school. Carlos Jefferson testified about his phone conversation with Ginger. According to the courier, he initially explained that he thought Ginger said he killed her, meaning Dustin, he later said that Ginger told him, I killed her.

I'm sure once that got out there, some people might have thought, well, maybe she met he killed her. Well, at trial, he testified, I do believe she said he killed her because that's what I originally thought I heard. So it does sound like he went back and forth, but by the time of the trial, he thought it was he killed her. Carrie's friend, Trudy, Mathis testified that Carrie expressed concern for her safety leading up to her death. She said the marriage was rocky because of beatings and cheating. Well, that will make any marriage, Rocky. Yeah, and I think it backs up, you know, maybe Carrie's desire to want out of the marriage

to want a divorce. Dr. Jonathan Thompson, the medical examiner, testified that one of the stab wounds severed Carrie's jugular vein. The second penetrated her esophagus. Carrie had a contusion around one eye. Witnesses who saw her earlier in the day did not report seeing a black eye, and we kind of detailed this out, which meant the injury occurred when she was fatally attacked. According to the courier, during closing arguments, Ginger's defense attorney told the jury

that while the state provided a very compelling case, it was a case against Dustin. So they're sticking with that. It's not, it wasn't Ginger, it was Dustin. You get the wrong person. The defense attorney pointed out that Kerry made a phone call at 2.37 p.m. And was found dead at 247 p.m. The 10 minute period was unaccounted for and Dustin was arrested at the scene with blood on his clothes. On May 27, 2014, Ginger Jefferson was found guilty of first degree murder.

Prosecutors filed an aiding and abetting. first degree murder charge against Dustin that same day. Ginger was sentenced to life in prison without parole on July 14th, 2014. She was also ordered to pay $150,000 in restitution to Cary's estate and $7,500 to the Crime Victim Assistance Program. I don't know if she had that kind of money. I'm guessing she probably didn't. But she's not going anywhere.

She's locked up. for life. Oh, she's definitely being held accountable for the murder. I just don't know about this restitution and whether any of that money is ever going to be seen. Well, she might make, you know, $30. $27 a hour. Yeah, yeah, maybe $30 a week or a month or something to fly towards it. Carrie's mother, Marlene O'Clair, gave a victim impact statement per the Gazette. She said, this senseless tragedy was brought on by anger and alcohol. Was it? it worth it for two families to fall apart? Not a day goes by that I don't think of her. There is only a future that will never be for Carrie. Well, she's right. It definitely is very

senseless. And the answer to that question, was it worth it? Is no. Obviously, it wasn't worth it to anyone. And I just wonder how many people are sitting in prison right now who, if you ask them, and they answered honestly. Was it worth it? Or if you could take it back, would you? How many would answer yes to the second one? No to the first one. And I think most people would say, if I could take it back, I would. Now, is that because they're remorseful or just because they don't like their new digs? Yeah, they don't want to be in prison. Dustin Jefferson's trial started on December 1st, 2014. this marked the start of what would become a lengthy legal process, but the trial ended the next day.

Defense attorney Thomas Gall, raised concerns about the racial makeup of the jury pool. As we mentioned, Dustin is a member of the Mesquawaki Nation. Defendants are entitled to a jury pool that reflects their community. Native Americans comprised 7.5% of Tama County at that time, but only two of the 86 potential jurors identified as Native American. Another issue was that 19 jurors did not show up as required.

Thomas Gall said he needed time to research how jurors are summoned and the court granted the defense's request. Well, that's a pretty big no-show percentage of jurors. And I also understand what this defense attorney is trying to do. You know, the makeup of the jury is so crissue. crucial in any trial for both the prosecution and the defense. So if there's anything they can do to kind of swing it in their favor, they're going to try to do that. Pretty important. Dustin's second trial started on September 21st, 2015. And it was said that he refused a last minute plea deal before jury selection started. The prosecution offered to let Dustin make an

Alford plea for attempted murder and one count of third degree sexual abuse in exchange for a 25 year sentence or an offered plea for conspiracy and four counts of third degree sexual abuse for a 50 year sentence. Prosecutor said he would likely serve no more than 17 and a half years for either plea. But Dustin refused both deals. I always think those are tough situations, right? Because if you really didn't do anything wrong, you don't want to plead, but you're also thinking, man, if they can make it look like I did this, I could be stuck in prison for the rest of my life. But even if you are guilty and you know you're guilty, do some people look at those sentences, 25 years, 50 years, and think, I don't want to do either of those. I don't even want to do the minimum 17 and a half

years, I'm going to take my chances. I'm going to roll the dice. And as we've seen in other episodes, sometimes that can be a really bad decision. Yeah. Because instead of the, that may be 17 and a half years, you end up with life with no parole and you're never getting that. So it's definitely a big gamble. Whether you did it or not. But I get your point. If you didn't have anything to do with it, would it be much harder to accept the plea deal? And I would say yeah. Prosecutor Laura Rohn argued that Dustin actively participated in the murder. She was dead within minutes of calling the police to report Dustin's location. Carrie's blood was found on Dustin's clothing and sandals, which indicated that he was inside

the home when Kerry was killed, not outside like he claimed in a statement. Additionally, Dustin gave three different. explanations for what happened that afternoon. Detective Kim Schwartz, one of the first responders, testified that it seemed like Dustin was going to flee the scene in his vehicle when he first got to the house. After she pulled out her taser, he got out of the car. He said, I have to check on my wife. I have to check on Kerry.

Schwartz described him as angry, distressed, agitated, and intoxicated. Not a good mix. No, no, but I'm sure he was all of those. But what is the jury make of this testimony, right? The detective says, it looked like he was about to take off. Then I pulled out my taser to get him out of the car. Then all of a sudden he's saying, hey, I got to check on my wife. Yeah, changes his, maybe changes his story.

Well, those are two very different things. You're either fleeing or you're concerned about your wife and you want to get inside and check on her. Schwartz testified about her conversation with Amber Navarro. According to Navarro, Ginger said she fought with Carrie and a knife got brought up. Ginger told Dustin, just do it, just do it. Dustin said, I can't. So based on that, Navarro got the impression that Dustin was present during the stabbing. Nothing like your mom encouraging you to stab somebody in the neck.

And not just somebody, your wife. Yeah. You know. Now, we talked about riffs between daughter-in-laws, mother-in-laws, but, you know, how many of them rise to this level where potentially the mother-in-law is cheering her son on to kill his wife? I think that's got to be pretty few and far between. The jury watched a video of Dustin's interview on the day Carrie was killed. He shouted in curse throughout the video and claimed the bear.

was responsible and somebody had threatened carry. A detective asked where he heard this and he answered a voice. A voice. Okay. Now, remember, he's intoxicated. He's all these different things. But you would have to say this would be very strange. Number one, who's the bear clan?

And number two, what's this voice that you're hearing? I mean, we all have a voice that we hear sometimes, but this is, you know, don't hear a voice sometimes. What does your voice tell you? That, uh, I need a desk. My voice is normally telling me that you're full of, you know what, but I don't know what a jury makes of this. You know, this guy seems to be all over the map.

Yeah. With what he's saying. And then you have this recorded video where, you know, I haven't seen it, but it sounds like he, you know, he's coming off a little, uh, a little odd, very strange kind of. Well, you said, probably intoxicated. Dustin said he never talked to Ginger about hurting Carrie. He said that he, Ginger, his sister, Sahara, and Carrie were at Carlos's house. They got into an argument and Kerry threatened to call the police to tourniment.

He took Ginger and Sahara for a drive to cool off. Sahara freaked out so they dropped her off. So this is his statement and it doesn't line up with what other people have said. He went on to say that when they returned, his mother went into the house, but he stayed outside to drink a beer. His mom then later came out with blood on her hands and ran off. So he's not putting himself in the house at all. No, he's doing a pretty good job of saying, I stayed outside. I was drinking a beer.

Now, in his second interview, Dustin said he didn't know why there was blood on his clothing, but suggested it came from his mother. Dustin was shown the suspected murder weapon and confirmed that it was his pocket knife. He said that he often left the knife in the kitchen when he bathed. Because that's where I usually put my knife when, you know, I strip down, get out of my skivies and take a shower. You do that too, huh? I just leave it in the kitchen. Yeah, me too.

For some reason. A lot of times I'll go ahead and open it up as well. And just lay it there with the blade open. Exactly. So, you know, he's saying this, hey, the blood. could have come from my mother. And I do get that. Because in his version, he's outside. His mother comes outside. Could she, you know, have dripped blood onto his clothing, his sandals? Yeah, you could see where that could happen. Now, I'm not sure why you would just put the knife in the kitchen when you're going to bathe.

But hey, the state argued that Dustin provided the knife to his mother. The knife was found in the backyard the day after the murder. Prosecutors believed Dustin put it there. He claimed his mother came outside through the back door, but there was no blood on the back door handle, despite the fact that Ginger's hands were bloody. That's a potential issue, right? It could be. Now, could you also maybe open a door, depending on what kind it was with your elbow? You could, but would somebody have the thought to do that? And why would it matter? Darwin Chapman, the former director of the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation, testified that there were no prints of value on Dustin's knife.

He analyzed the bloody footprint at the crime scene and could not rule out shoes owned by Dustin and Ginger. However, the tread design and distribution of blood were similar to a left shoe owned by Kerry. The prosecution called on bloodstained pattern analyst Michael Halver. who concluded that carry blood in two places on a mattress and a bedroom, large drops of blood suggested she went through a doorway and stood over laundry baskets, which had blood on them. She then went to the room where her body was found. So this is kind of Dexter type stuff here. It really is. Blood pattern, you know, analysis. It's fascinating stuff. And it's one of the reasons I think why I did like that show so much. Yes, he was a killer, but they also showed a lot of the

blood analysis type stuff. And to me, that was always very fascinating. Even in documentaries, I like that where they go through and can tell you that the blow was struck from this direction, the person then did this and they fell down here, even if they ended up somewhere else, just based on the blood spatter and in the droplets and how the droplets are shaped and all of that stuff. I remember watching the stairs. The staircase. Yeah, that was one that I was just thinking about. Yeah, I remember hearing a lot of that during that show.

And even in making a murderer in that second season, you know, that famous attorney, she was doing a lot of blood type analysis about putting. the body in that vehicle and they kept putting fake blood on like a dummy and then smacking it into the vehicle, just trying to figure out what it should look like if it happened that way. The blood found on the back of Dustin's shirt was consistent with a transfer stain. His sandals had spatter stains on top and there was a drop of blood on the bottom of one sandal. Now, according to the expert, the spatter stains could be. caused by several things, like the impact from beating someone or shooting them or expiration of blood

from coughing, sneezing, or a bloody nose. The expert also referenced satellite spatter from blood dripping onto the floor and causing small stains. The expert said it was possible that the blood on Dustin's clothing was solely transferred by Ginger. Dustin had less blood on his clothing than his mother. Halverson also confirmed that Carrie had blood on the bottom of her shoes. He said, the only evidence inconsistent with the theory that ginger stabbed Carrie and ran out of the house was a drop of blood on the soul of Dustin's sandal. He said, it was possible Dustin stepped on a drop of blood.

Putting him in the house. Putting him in the house because then they went on to say there was no blood outside the house on the driveway or, the sidewalk where ginger stood, meaning it had to have come from inside the house. So we talked about the fact that her hands were bloody, but it sounds like at least on the driveway and the sidewalk, none of it fell off her hands or they would have found blood. He said no blood was found on the bottom of ginger shoes and that ginger was not covered in blood. She had small spots of blood on her. So a lot of blood evidence in this case for sure. And it's a lot for the jury to take in.

The state once again brought up Carrie's bruises and her black eye. They noted that Ginger was 25 years older than Carrie and 80 pounds lighter. She would have had a hard time overpowering her. The state argued that Dustin held her down as she was stabbed. Now, I get that, you know, 80 pounds is is quite a difference when you're talking about trying to overpower somebody. But if you're just stabbing somebody in the neck twice, I don't know that the 80 pound difference necessarily comes into play. No, I think if you get that first stabbing, it's probably going to incapacitate the victim.

Well, and, you know, you could stab somebody from behind. They don't see it coming. And therefore, there's no fight to be put up. and then to your point, once that first stab is made, and we already said it, but the ME said that it severed her jugular, you know, how much of a fight are you going to be able to put up after that? We don't know. Maybe not much. Seemingly in support of this theory, Carrie's mother testified that Carrie and Ginger had gotten into a physical altercation where Carrie was holding Ginger down and Dustin had to pull her off Ginger. And again,

that goes back to the 80-pound weight difference, but I don't know in this scenario that there had to have been a physical struggle prior to the fatal stabbing. The final witness was Lori Davenport, who according to the courier, testified that Amber Navarro called her and said, Carrie might be dead. Ginger got on the phone and said, I stabbed Carrie twice in the neck. In her closing statement, Prosecutor Laura Rohn told the jury that Kerry was killed in an ambush and that Ginger would not have killed her without Dustin's encouragement.

She noted that roughly equivalent amounts of blood were found on Dustin and Ginger. The most likely scenario was that Dustin beat Carrie and held her down while Ginger stabbed her. So, you know, let's analyze that for a minute. If they did have a back, the same amount of blood on them, meaning ginger and Dustin, does it then not make some sense that they were in the room pretty close together? I would say yeah. I would say yes, too.

And then I think you have to take into account, you know, this black eye, this beating that seemed to have occurred. Why would that happen? There'd be no need to do that if you're just sneaking up on somebody and stabbing them in the neck, I wouldn't think. But if the scenario went down as the prosecutor said, okay, Dustin hits Carrie, he's unable to hold her down, ginger swoops in and stabs her twice in the neck. Now, ultimately, as it always is, it's going to be up to the jury to decide what makes the sense and whether or not the evidence is compelling enough to convict Dustin. there's a lot of information there there and you know i i do think in some of these types of cases

not real easy for the jury you know they've got a lot to wade through they have a lot of questions to answer defense attorney thomas gall said that dustin was reluctant to rat out his mother but he knew that was what he needed to do he argued that none of the evidence conflicted with the theory that one person attacked Carrie. Although there was a heightened age difference, Carrie had alcohol, opiates, and THC in her system, which could explain why she didn't fight off Ginger. So they really are set on the fact that there had to have been a fight. And obviously there was a fight. She had a black eye. She did. So maybe that's why they're factoring in this 80 pound weight difference in saying, is it more likely that Ginger punched Carrie in the eye and then was

able to stab her in the neck? Or is it more likely that Dustin did and held her down? Well, I mean, obviously you can make a claim either way. But I think I lean with him assisting. I mean, is it possible for someone who weighs 80 pounds lighter to punch you in the face and then stab you in the neck? Sure. Yeah. It is. is. But I think the prosecution is saying, does that make sense? Would that be the most likely way that it went down? Well, look, we know in these cases, anything's possible. And I think for me, that's why I've always had, you know, this kind of real struggle with reasonable doubt. When you say anything is possible, that opens up a lot of room for reasonable doubt. Now, in this case, not

anything is possible. It's not possible that you murdered Kerry. No. Or that I murdered Carrie. I don't know where you were at. Now, anything is possible with the people who were there, though. And I think that's, I think that's what you were getting at. Absolutely. The jury started deliberating on September 29th, 2015. But on October 2nd, they determined they couldn't reach a unanimous decision. So a mistrial was declared. And that actually doesn't shock me all that much. A lot of evidence, a lot of pretty scientific blood evidence, but two competing theories. And it sounds like not everyone could agree on one of the other. The jury foreman was the one who refused to find Dustin guilty. He spoke with the press after he was discharged and said that Dustin had motive, opportunity,

an intent, but the jury got severely hung up on specific actions. He felt like the prosecution did not fully explain what exactly Dustin did that day. And I think that's always a tough one because you and I have covered so many trials where the prosecution can lay a lot of things out, but they very often don't have an answer for every single thing. And for some jury members, that's a problem. I think there's no way the prosecution can know everything because obviously they're not there. No, they're relying on evidence.

They're relying on witness statements and things like that. But, you know, those things can only tell so much of the story. And if you have a jury member who wants everything laid out in perfect detail, I think sometimes that's very hard to do. on December 25th, 2015, the Iowa Court of Appeals upheld Ginger's murder conviction. She argued ineffective counsel because her lawyer failed to object to an audio recording from her interrogation. Part of the recording was a discussion on a previous fight between Ginger and Kerry and Ginger's dislike of Carrie because she was a white American.

there was a reference to the potential motive that Ginger wanted to prevent Kerry from getting Dustin's money from the Meswaukee settlement if he was convicted. Dustin's third trial started on February 5th, 2016. So they weren't giving up. You know, the mistrial wasn't going to stop the prosecution from, you know, going after him. Most of the testimony was similar to his second trial. This time, his sister, Sahara-Marty. Martinez was called as a witness.

She confirmed that she and Ginger visited Dustin on the day of the murder and they drank together. She was left behind by Dustin when they went out for a drive. So she was not present during the murder. She can't really add much of anything. No, I think, you know, she was a witness who wasn't there before. But what, you know, did she really add doesn't sound like much. I think the key here is that the majority of the testimony was the same.

On February 9th, 2016, Dustin Jefferson was convicted of aiding and abetting first degree of murder. And on May 5th, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Those 17 and a half years looking pretty good at that point. Well, and, you know, that's what we talked about. When you roll the dice, you are really taking a big chance. I mean, nobody wants to do 17 and a half years. But when you find out that you've been sentenced to life without the person, possibility of parole, you'd probably do anything to get those 17 and a half year.

But it's too late. But the other thing that I draw from this is that the testimony was similar. So the only thing that really was all that different was the jury. Yeah. That's true. And that's the one thing about our legal system that to me is pretty intriguing. Right. The jury has such power.

And, you know, depending on the makeup of the jury, depending on, you know, how they view the science, how they view the witness statements and all of that, different juries can come to different conclusions. Now, we'll go back and say there was only one holdout on the previous jury, which means that everybody but one person was ready to convict Dustin. Yeah, it was going to happen eventually, I think. Well, it did. Well, it did. I mean, Yeah. They just needed one extra person. And this time, everybody was unanimous. According to the courier, Dustin spoke to Carrie's family and said, I want to say to you guys, I'm sorry. If I had known my mom had this plan, I would have stopped her. He said that he told

Carrie he was okay with the divorce, but she refused. She wouldn't leave me. And I was glad for that because I love her. I always did and I always will. I just want you to know deep down inside, I'm not the monster that you think I am. I don't know. I don't either. But it's very clear that he's maintaining his innocence and he's putting the entire thing on his mother. He didn't tell her to do it. He didn't want her to do it.

She acted of her own accord. So he sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. But Dustin still had to face the sexual abuse charges. Now he's got to face the other monstrous. charge. Yeah, no doubt. On February 1st, 2018, Dustin pleaded guilty to assault with intent to commit sexual abuse, which is an aggravated misdemeanor. He was sentenced to time, sir. So I don't know how well that went over with the victim or the victim's family. The state said that they felt like having Dustin plead to a lesser charge was the best resolution to the case because he had already

received a life sentence. Does that give the victim, the justice that she needed? Yeah, that I don't know. I understand it from the standpoint that he's not going to do any more time than he already has, but was the victim and the victim's family consulted? And how did they feel about that? Because the victim, who was now 19 years old, said that she was never the same after she was abused by Dustin.

Per the Gazette, the girl she once was died the minute I first started talking to him. It affected me so badly that I was afraid of my own dad and my uncles. I fell into a deep depression and I started cutting a lot more. And that is very sad. Now, it's very sad what happened to Carrie. Sure. But also very sad what happened to this young girl. who was 12 at the time.

She's 19 when she's talking to the paper. And you really get a sense of what Dustin's actions. How they impacted her. Yeah, how they impacted her. And none of it was good. It couldn't be good. Almost five years later, Dustin's case was finally resolved. His appeal to the Iowa court of appeals was denied on September 12, 2018.

So I wish we knew more about how the victim felt about the resolution and how her family felt about it. I didn't see it or I would have put it in. But I think I would be pretty upset, you know, as a dad. Yeah. I understand he's never getting out. He's not going to hurt anyone else. But did he really receive something punitive for what he did to my daughter? And I would say the answer is no.

you know, time already served. It's, it's nothing. But no matter what he got, it wasn't going to add on to his time, but would it have made the family feel better? And I think the prosecution, and maybe they did, and we just don't know, but I think you have to take the victim and the victim's families wishes into account. Oh, I believe that. Yeah, for sure. Now, we know they can't always do exactly what the family wants or they don't always do what the family wants, but hopefully they were at least involved in the process in some way, but I don't know that for sure. I like that movie on Lawful Citizen. Yes.

And that caused him to do some very bad things. Yes, it did. But it is an excellent movie. It is. The murder of Carrie O'Clair Jefferson is an example of an abusive marriage mixed with a toxic family dynamic. I'm saying that lightly. Yeah. There's no doubt that that marriage was abusive and, you know, a toxic family dynamic.

When your mother-in-law kills you and it appears that she was aided by your husband in some former fashion, I think toxic's an understatement at that point. Carrie was killed because she decided to do the right thing and help the police arrest her husband. After they were arrested, Dustin placed all the blame on his mother, but prosecutors believed that he participated in the murder. Ginger seemed less willing to blame her son, but admitted to stabbing Carrie. So unless a court changes his sentence and grants him parole, Dustin will no longer be able to abuse any more women or girls. And that's a good thing because, you know, what he did just on that part, the abuse of this 12-year-old girl was horrible.

And that's what we know about. Yeah. We don't know what else is out there. We also know that he was, you know, allegedly abusive to Kerry. And allegedly sleeping with his mom. On a gravel road. Yeah. Let that sink in, but not too far.

Well, I don't know why I'm so hung up on the gravel road, almost more than the incest for some reason. The gravel road is stuck in my head. Who has sex on a. gravel road. I think they mean parked on a gravel road. Why wouldn't they say that? I don't know, but I'm just saying, I don't think it was actually on the gravel road. Hey, with this family, I'm not putting anything past them. That's true. That's true. Because you would have to say at the end of the day, this was one messed up family. At the very least, Ginger and Dustin. Yeah, I just think it's a weird

dynamic. I mean, day drinking with your mom and then going out for a drunk driving cruise with your mom and your sister. I don't know. Yeah, I think a lot of people are listening saying, well, that's, that's not what my family does. And that's a good thing. It is a good thing, because I don't think it's healthy at all. And then there's that gravel road, you know, that I'll be thinking about for some time trying to figure out what's going on there. But that's it for our episode on Dustin and Ginger Jefferson. I don't think there's any doubt that Ginger stabbed and killed Kerry. The jury found Dustin guilty as well.

I just wish we knew exactly what happened. Obviously, he was convicted, but he didn't fess up to the crime. So it was never laid out in detail exactly what happened. We have the prosecution's theory that he hit Carrie and then held her down while Ginger stabbed her, but he's never confessed to that. Yeah. But we got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear him. Hey, Mike. Hey, Jovey. This is Heather. I'm a long time listener. And I just wanted to let you know that when you guys were doing the Carla Hughes episode, I think it was, you were talking about

the work husband, workwife thing. And I was really disappointed because I was really hoping that you guys would let on which of you, Mike or Gibby, is the work wife and which one's the work husband or vice versa. I kind of figured Mike was the work wife because he hosted dinner and Givby just comes and eats it every single time you record. Anyways, I hope you'll let us know which one it is. Thanks so much. You're laughing as the voicemail is being played. I know you're not laughing. Well, you know, on the, you know, on the, you know, on the voice mail is, is being played. Well, you know I'm not going to cop to that. But I almost feel like I'm both.

Yeah. The work husband and the work wife because I do all the work. You do. And so, you know, I provide the meals. I do the editing, the writing. I mean, come on now. But if I had to pick one of the other, I would say I am the workwife. Yeah.

because I think more times than not, wives pull more than their share. And so, you know, I'll take that. And you're sitting on the damn couch with your hands in your pants drinking a beer. And the problem is? The problem is you don't think there's a problem. That was a funny voice mold though. I got a kick out of it. Hi, Mike and Gibby.

This is Madison from Perrysburg, Ohio. I've been a Patreon member for about a year, and I've listened on and off for about four-ish years, maybe, I think. I've been listening pretty regularly since I got to my new job about a year ago. I guess it's not so new anymore. I listened to it 8 to 12 hours a day, depending on the length of my ship, finished all of T-Cat, caught up, I'm currently listening to Unsolved and the Patreon episodes as well, which I'm just now starting to listen to even though I've been a member for a year. I'm trying really hard to get my fiancee to listen with me, but for some reason he refuses. So I need your help to get my fiance Caleb to listen with me.

He told me if I do this because he doesn't think I will because I hate being on phone and phone calls that he'll listen to the episode that the voicemail is on. So I'm going to eventually listen to this episode whenever it gets aired. And then when I hear my voice in the end, I'm not going to be playing it in the car with him on the way to and from work. Hopefully it's a true crime that all the time episode is none of them solved episode, though, because I cannot imagine I'll actually get him to listen to the podcast regularly with me. It's been solved because that, I think, would just annoy him. I've listened to so many podcasts of his that he asked me to try, but he refuses to listen to mine. So I think I need your help a little bit, Mike and Gibby.

All right. Well, stay safe, and keep your own time ticking. Well, heck, that's easy. Caleb, listen to this episode. And we put this on every episode out there. Put this voicemail on everyone all the way back. So I will say this. First of all, for somebody who says they don't like talking on the phone, she was very eloquent.

She was. Left a very nice voicemail. And I would echo your sentiments. Caleb, get your shit together. Listen to this podcast. listen to this episode at least. At least. That's the least you can do.

And thanks for being team Gibby. Yeah. Before you even listen, you're being recruited. We had a couple of things in the mailbag. They were all from Mary Beth Long. She's a great friend of the podcast, longtime friend.

She sent us each a huge box of holiday goodies. I mean, they were filled with essentially every candy ever made, Gibbs. There was games in there, trivia. socks, all kinds of stuff. They're basically like some personally curated boxes that you'd get from one of those

subscription places. It does amazing job. Well, she curated them to what she knows we like. Yeah. Which is just amazing. So thank you, Mary Beth. We appreciate it very much. But that is it for another episode of true crime all the time.

So for Mike and give me, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.