True Crime All The Time - Ed Gein Part1

Episode Date: June 3, 2019

Ed Gein is one of the more intriguing characters in the history of true crime. He didn't murder a large number of people as some other killers did. What makes Ed stand out is the scope of his crimes and what he did with his victims. In addition to being a murderer, Ed Gein was a prolific grave robber. And it is what he did with the bodies that has fascinated many people for years.Join Mike and Gibby as we discuss Ed Gein, the basis for many of Hollywood's most famous villains. In this first part of the Ed Gein story we focus on Ed's childhood, his sexual confusion and his domineering mother Augusta. All of these parts of Ed's childhood go together to start him down the path of grave robbing and making his "suits" out of recently buried women.You can help support the show at patreon.com/truecrimeallthetimeVisit the show's website at truecrimeallthetime.com for contact, merchandise and donation information See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

So everyone and welcome to episode 133 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime. Mike Gibson. Gibby, what is going on? What's happening, man? We have had a heck of a week already. We have, man. I assume that everyone listening probably saw on the news that we had a series of pretty substantial tornadoes.

They were, what, F3s, E3s, whatever. It would be F3. Yeah, okay. I thought it was F3. I thought it was F. And then for some reason, I thought I was wrong. But, yeah, touchdown north of Dayton, pretty destructive. Really destructive.

And, you know, aside from the destruction, and we got, you know, a water boil advisory. A lot of people are without power. And so luckily, we're able to keep this machine moving. I was going to say, thank goodness you have power, man. We'd have to get a generous. You'd have you riding that bike with his cords hooked up, you know, pedal faster, Gibby, so we can have power to get it going. Yeah. So we are, what, Gibbs is just about a, we're a week away from CrimeCon and looking forward to it.

I can't, you know, I keep getting all these emails from people, messages that are going to be there. I can't wait to see, you know, the fans. Some we've seen, you know, probably for the third year in a row. some it's going to be their first time, but it will be great. I'm excited, man. So your bags are packed by the door? I like to get an early start. Yeah.

No doubt about that. I can see that. All right. So we had a lot of new Patreon support. Let's give us some shoutouts. We had Stephanie. Hey, Stephanie. Laurel Fetanto jumped out to our highest level.

Oh, fatanto. Jacob Brooks. Hey, Jacob Brooks. Jessica Vanderberg jumped out to our highest level. What up, Van der Berg. Diane Wright jumped out to our highest level. Hey, Diane. We had Amber Brooks.

Pultz, Amber. Lori. Hey, Lori. Susan Burwick. Hey, Susan. Kimberly Rogers. Thanks, Kimberly. Erin So-key. She's so key, man. We had Monica Holloway. Hey, Monica. Johann Norbach. Oh, Johann. Karasoo Ely. Hey, Karasoo. Becky St. John. Thanks, Becky. Lindsay Bass had jumped out at our highest level.

What up, Lindsay? And then, Gives, we just had three people go extremely over the top with their Patreon donations. They love you, man. Amanda Chapman and Alyssa Vathiatis. Wow. Thanks, Amanda. Thanks, Alyssa. Both new supporters that jumped out more than double what our highest tier is.

That's amazing. And then Mary Beth Long, who's been with us a long time, she upped hers to $100, like, out of the stratosphere. Whoa. Yeah, it's amazing. That's, wow. It's great, great support. We appreciate it.

We do. And we appreciate the people that continue to support us month after month. You know, if we go back into the Vault Gibbs, this week we selected Sarah Parkhurst. We know Sarah for a long time. Yep. Great supporter. Loves the show. Long time supporter.

So we appreciate that very much. We had some PayPal support as well. David Grossenbacher. Hey, David. Athena Raymond. Hey, Athena. Samantha Newey. I appreciate that.

Judith Tackett. Awesome. AJ Sloan. Ooh, AJ. And Jerry Overterf. Hey, Jerry. So not only some great support, but some very cool names. And that's awesome.

It's amazing is what it is. All right. Right now we have an episode of T-Cat Unsolved Out. It's on the Redhead Murders of the mid-1980s. This is a good one. This is one that people should check out a large number of women found. dead. Yeah. What they have in common is some type of reddish hair. Yeah. Now, it's not always red red, red, sometimes it's blondeish red or reddish blonde. I don't know how you say that.

Let me be strawberry blonde. Strawberry blonde. But the other thing about this case is it spans, it spans a number of years, but it spans a number of states. I mean, five, six, seven different states that they're grouping, you know, some of these in. And then you have the victim type. Pretty similar. Yeah. The end result is the actual murder itself is is very similar in these cases. And that's why they're grouped together. But it's an interesting case for sure. Definitely check that out. All right, Gibbs, are you ready to get into this episode of true crime all time? I am. I'm excited about this. Yeah. This is a killer that I have been wanting to cover for a long time. since we started the podcast, right?

Ed Gein was probably in the, I'm sure, in the first wave of names that I put on the list. Now, we're two and a half years later and we're just doing him. Right. But there's a lot of the big names that we haven't done, right? Gacy, Bundy, we try to space them out. Ed Gein, to me, is one of the most intriguing killers of all time. He's also known as the Plainfield ghoul. for the small town in Wisconsin where he lived.

I think a lot of the reason why Ed is so intriguing is because he's often cited as the inspiration in at least some way for some of the most well-known Hollywood villains ever. You're talking about Norman Bates from Psycho, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, probably both Hannibal Lecter. and Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs. And then to me, as I did the research, I started to think a little bit about Red Dragon, which was written by the same guy

that did Silence of the Lambs. The villain in Red Dragon, played by Ralph Fines, had some real Ed Gein-like mommy issues. And that's kind of where my mind started going. There are some reports out there. that say as many as 50 different movies or characters have been inspired by Ed Gein. I kind of can believe that. Including the ones that were specifically made about him, right?

There's a number of movies that are just about Ed Gein. Right. But many, many more that aren't about him at all, but where the villain or the character takes a bunch of qualities that, you know, that Ed had. So like I mentioned, we had this on the list probably from the very beginning. We knew we would get to it when the timing was right. That timing is right thing. People always ask me, how do you pick the cases?

Well, it kind of involves you or I, you know, putting our finger in the air, seeing which way the wind's blowing. Yeah. At the time. And this time it was blowing the way of Ed Gein. It's just how it goes. The other thing is I knew I wanted a two. two-parter, right, to take us through CrimeCon. So part one is out now.

Part two comes out next Sunday. That's when you and I will probably be flying back from CrimeCon, True. But you add all of those things together and what you get is Ed Gein, not to mention the fact that we get a ton of emails and voicemail requests for him and have received a lot of them lately. So I say we jump right in. Just do it. Now, before Ed Gein could become the inspiration for some of Hollywood's most famous killers, the world had to find out what he had done. If nobody ever knows what Ed Gein did, then who's Ed Gein?

Nobody's ever heard of him. Right. And the thing with Ed, right, it's not the number of people that he murdered, that has fascinated people over the years. he most likely only killed two people, maybe three. And I hate to say that, right? It sounds awful to say he only killed X number because, you know, every victim's life is, is precious.

But I'm saying it to make a point. It's not the number of victims that has made Ed Geing so infamous in the world of killers. It was the way that he killed. And I think even more than that, what he did with his victim's bodies that have captured so many people's imaginations over the years when it comes to Ed Gein. And then you add on top of that, it's not all about the murders. Right. This guy was a body snatcher who performed acts on those that were already dead. And you know, Gibbs to be the inspiration for some of the. these famous movie killers, we're going to be talking about some very strange things.

Very strange things. Mommy issues. That's one of them, not the, probably a little bit more strange than that. Maybe a little cannibalism. Now we're getting there. Some necrophilia. You went there, didn't you? Grave robbing.

And we're definitely going to be talking about human body suits. So we're going to talk about sewing. Sowing. Okay. Sowing skills. Sowing skills. Yeah. Which I know you have some and we're going to talk about it.

Oh, I can stitch, man. I know you can't. Yeah. I've seen some of your work. It's, uh, it's top notch. It's top not. But you know, you know the usual, right? This is the usual type of thing.

It's not. And that's why Ed Gein is so fascinating. We talk about killers who are necrophiliacs. Not very often because I don't think it's that common. But have we ever talked about somebody that did all of this? I don't know that we have. I don't think we have. Or had all of this, you know.

And the other thing about the case of Ed Gein, it happens in small town Wisconsin, right? Back in the 50s, back before the time of 24 hour news coverage. I mean, heck, Elvis was just barely a star at the point that Ed Gein committed his murders. So you know we're going back away. But to tell the story of Ed Gein and like you and I enjoy doing, we have to start at the beginning. We have to talk about his childhood. Edward Theodore Gein was born on August 27th, 1906 in LaCross, Wisconsin to George and Augusta Gein.

He had a brother named Henry who was about four or five years older, I think, than he was. When you talk about Ed's father, George. He really wasn't that much to talk about. The guy was, he was kind of a POS. Really? Oh, he was an abusive alcoholic. He barely worked off and on, couldn't hold a job, which is something that some alcoholics have a hard time doing.

Yeah, if you're a pretty serious alcoholic, sometimes it's very hard to keep a job. And he definitely was more off than on when it came to working. and providing for his family. You know, when he did work, he tried his hand at farming. He did some tanning. He worked as a carpenter. But George is not all that important, really, in the story of Ed Gein. I'm not going to say he didn't play a role because he did.

But it was Ed's mother Augusta that really controlled the household. She ran a pretty successful grocery business that kept the family afloat. Augusta? Augusta. Really? Mm-hmm. It's like going back to Charlie and the chocolate factory. That was Augustus, but...

Close. I see where you're going. Yeah, you got me. That was also a boy. Yeah, I know. Work with me here. I'm trying to work with. There's got to be something to work with.

Do you know, man? So Augusta and George, you almost had me saying Augustus. They married in 1900. And I think Gibbs, it was really just a few years. years into this marriage that she began to understand just what kind of man she married. And I don't think she liked what she discovered. She grew to dislike him very much, very quickly, which shouldn't be shocking. I mean, what kind of woman doesn't want an alcoholic, abusive husband who can't keep a job?

You think there'd be hands raised everywhere. Right. You know, that was the early 1900s. I think today, I'm sure that type of man still exists, but he's probably not listing all of that on his Tinder profile. You know, it probably doesn't say works occasionally. Abusive alcoholic on Tinder, do you even have a profile? Or is there just picture? I don't know. I almost got you. almost did see i'm not on tender but like i said the important thing here when we're talking about ed gine is that ed's mother augusta she was a very dominant woman she took control of the house she was the head of the household you know george was basically just there although there were some reports that he beat the kids and that's why i say he does play into ed's childhood obviously anytime you have an abusive alcoholic father that that's going to play a factor. But he provided no guidance, no parenting of any type.

So a lot of people would say, you know, why would this woman who seems to have her, you know what together, right? She opened up this store. It became successful. She's putting food on the table. Why would she stay married to this man that she can't stay. And the answer is Augusta is fanatically religious. I mean, unbelievably religious.

And that's important, right? When it comes to this story. But it also means that she couldn't divorce George. She was staying to the end. Yes. Because of her beliefs, she was unwilling to divorce this man that I think very quickly, she realized this was a mistake.

I should never have married him. Right. He's useless. But if I leave him, I'm going to that bad place because that's what she was told all the time growing up in the church, I'm sure. And she really believed in heaven and hell. And we're going to get into, you know, some of the sermons and the preaching and the fire and brimstone that she would lay on the kids. It's a big part of Ed's childhood. So hopefully we're painting.

this picture, you can imagine that this was a happy marriage. It's a great place for Ed to grow up. No, obviously it wasn't. His mother did all of the child rearing. She would let George have no part of it. Really just would not let him be involved. I'm not sure he wanted to anyway, but in her way of raising the kids, like we said, it was all based on the Bible. She taught the brothers, her sons from the Bible every day. And it was all about, you know, preaching the wickedness of society. But especially and very important how bad some women were, right? The loose women, the immoral women.

That she was very worried about these women as it came to her two sons. And I believe Gibbs that she preached on. it every day. You know, you're going to hell if you do this. And like I said, she is a huge part of the Ed Gein story. She provided financially for the family with her grocery store. She ruled the family with an iron fist. She kept both Ed and Henry very close to her, you know, constantly talking to them about, you know, sin, constantly worried that they were going to be. going to hell. She told them that.

Just drove it home. You're going to hell. Every time. If you do this, if you do that. And the big thing was sex. You know, Augusta was very to the point with her sons in that sex was strictly for procreation. So making babies and that's it. That's it.

Make me some babies. Otherwise, you keep that in your pants. So number one, how in the hell you ever supposed to get good at it? Well, if you've had no practice. and get no practice. That's true. But the other thing is, I mean, you know, really, how tough is that? You're talking about 15, 16, 17 year old kids.

The hormones are kicking in. Very tough, right? To say to a kid, don't have sex unless you're married. And even then only have it for reasons of procreation. Yeah. But she was able to do this. and the way she did it was by putting that fear into them that if they went against her and what she was saying, they were going to hell. And so she had these fire and brimstone talks basically every day.

Fire and brimstone. When Ed was eight years old, the family bought a 195 acre farm in Plainfield, Wisconsin. That's a pretty good size farm. It's a huge farm, man. But it also tells you, right? The father is really not doing anything for this family. It tells you how well Augusta did with this family grocery store that she was able to save up money to buy this big farm. But what's important here is the reason why she wanted the farm. She wanted to move away from the city.

And we're not talking a big city. They lived in La Crosse. I mean, that's, it's not Milwaukee. No. But she wanted to get away from the centers, as she called them in the city. And she thought the farm would be the perfect place to shield the boys. That's what it's all about. I mean, Plainfield, Wisconsin had a population of less than 700 people.

Pretty small. And I'm pretty sure that's why she chose it. That's almost some high school graduations. Yeah. Yeah, I think there are some big high schools that probably have that many people in their graduating class. It was said that, you know, they didn't have a neighbor that was very close to the farm. I actually saw differing measurements on that. I saw one article that said there wasn't anybody within a mile.

Another one said a quarter of a mile. But either way, there's nobody real close to the farm. So how much trouble could these boys get into? I think you're going to tell me. Well, not much. I mean, who are they going to get in trouble with besides themselves? And, you know, they're attending the sermon every day. They got to worry about the brimstone and fire coming down on them.

We're fire and brimstone. You can say it either way. Yeah, it's reversible. They're brimstone and fire. But they did have to go to school. And I'm not even sure Augusta wanted them to go to school, but they needed to go to school. And, you know, Ed did not. not thrive as a lot of the killers that we talk about do not.

Right. He was not accepted by the other kids. For one thing, and you can see this in pictures of Ed Gein, he had this kind of growth on his eyelid. It hung down a little bit and it made him look like he had a lazy eye. Like this growth right here? Yeah, just like that one. Right there.

Like yours. Okay. Maybe he did have a lazy eye, but the growth for sure accentuated this. And it gave him kind of an odd look that, as we've talked about, and when you're a kid, anything that doesn't look like. Normal. Bobby Sue and Sally Joe is going to get you excluded. It will.

I hate it. But, you know, and especially back then, right, there was no anti-bullying campaigns in the 1930s, 1940s, whatever we're in. Yeah, I don't think they even knew what. bullying well back in the 30s and 40s. All right, Gibby, let's take a quick break to talk about our sponsor BetterHelp. Listen, folks, if there's something that is interfering with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals, Better Help is there for you.

They will assess your needs. They will match you with your own licensed professional therapist. This process can start in under 24 hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not self-help. It's professional counseling done. securely online. There is a broad range of expertise in BetterHelp's counseling network. BetterHelp is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches. So they make it easy and free to change counselors

if needed. It's more affordable than traditional offline counseling and financial aid is available. So why not get started today? Visit betterhelp.com slash T-Cat and join the over 500,000 people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional assigned through BetterHelp. T-Cat listeners get 10% off your first month. So that's at betterhelp.com slash T-Cat. Ed was also extremely shy. And that always makes making friends very difficult for kids. I was shy. I was shy. I imagine that. Yeah. I imagine that. I'm still shy. You're very shy. Yeah. Too shy to shy. That was actually funny. But the other thing that, that I read about Ed as a youngster was that he was somewhat effeminate. And it was said that this put

other kids off as well. Because you have to figure the time frame. Right. You know, right now in today's society, I feel like at least with my own kids and the way that they went through school, all of these things that were talking about, they were non-issues, the way that they explained it to me. Right. There was so much anti-bullying. And, you know, the kids, I think, were raised in a different era by a different type of parent that they were just much more accepting of everyone. Oh, the last few years? Yeah.

Oh, for sure. And I don't know how long that's been. Now, that was not the same for you and I. Oh, no way, man. Growing up. But especially I think if you go back to the 20s, 30s, very little tolerance for certain types of things. a little boy being effeminate, I think would have been one of those.

And Gibbs, this is something that's going to come up throughout the life of Ed Gein. We'll talk about it, you know, as we go along. But we're talking about him making friends. I don't think it mattered. His mother didn't want him making any friends anyway. So even if he was able to, I think if there was the slightest talk of a friend, she would have stamped it out. Yeah.

She, like I said, I don't think she even wanted the boys to go to school because she bought that farm to try to isolate them. They had to go to school, but it was go to school, come right back home and do your chores. Come right back home to Mama. You're not, you're not staying all night at Bobby's house. No, no, you come back to Mama. Because any of that could lead to sin. And she just wouldn't have it. She needed control.

Ed was an average student. With the exception of reading, he really enjoyed reading. He was, uh, he read at a pretty good level. Oh, so did I. I know you did. You're very, very high. But he liked adventure type books and magazines, you know, adventure stories. So we talk about Ed and his brother, leaving the farm essentially only to attend school.

And other than that, they were on the farm doing chores. Ed made it through the eighth grade. and then he dropped out. So after that, what's that? 14 years old, give or take? Yeah. From that point forward, Ed Gein was on the farm and pretty much nowhere else.

And I think his mom liked it that way. Because there was no chance that he was going to run into a girl. Obviously, he wasn't going to have a girlfriend. He wasn't going to go on a date. He wasn't going to meet a friend that would be, a bad influence on him. He would be influenced by Augusta and no one else. It was her world and he was in it.

I thought you were going to say and he was just a squirrel trying to get a nut or something. But no, it was. You're right. It was her world. Yeah. I also thought you were going to say it was her way or the highway because you like to say that a lot. So I don't know. You know, you think about that existence and it sounds awful to me.

And I'm not talking about farm life. farm life can be great. I'm talking specifically about the farm life of Ed Geing, abusive, alcoholic father, domineering mother, no friends, no love interest, really nothing but the farm and chores and get up every day and do it all over again. Now, that's a tender profile. Profile right there. Wow. Now, that would be farmers only.com. Oh, yeah. There you go. Farmer's only. I've seen the commercials. Yeah. Get your boots out.

So you have these two brothers growing up together on the farm. Like I said, essentially shielded from everyone outside the family with the exception of school. Right. And then even then they didn't stay all that long. As they got older, their mother became more and more fearful for them. She started to think that they were going to end up like their father. who she couldn't stand, she was on them night and day. You know, very verbally abusive to both boys, I think, for the slightest thing.

Right. In 1940, the dad, George Gein, died from pneumonia. At this point, the boys, Ed and Henry, they were in their 30s. Ed was in his mid-30s. Henry was almost 40. That pneumonia's rough, man. Back then, I think it was very rough. I thought it was rough when I had it back in the wintertime.

Oh, I mean, yeah, it's always rough. But I meant a lot of people died, more people died from it back then. I thought I was going to die. It was close, close call. You're just wimpy. Yeah. I was still out chopping wood. Didn't stop me.

I had to bring the Rex West out. So Ed and Henry, they started to go into town. They took odd jobs as handymen to earn some extra money. And it was said from a lot of the townsfolk that they knew that. they knew them to be hardworking, trustworthy. They were good boys. Now, they're 30, 40 years old by this point. Yeah.

Most farmers, you know, they work hard, man. Sure. It's a hard job. It's one of those jobs where you just really don't have much of a choice. It either is going to get done and you're going to do it or it's not and then bad things are going to happen. It's going to be there again tomorrow for you to do twice as hard. So go ahead and get out there and do it. It's kind of hard to call off sick.

It's a, it can be a very, very tough, but enjoyable living for some. For some. Not for me. I don't like to get up early for one thing. You're not a farmer. No, I'm not a farmer. Ed also earned some money babysitting of all things. He babysat some of the children in town.

And apparently Ed Gein was very good with children. He was one of those type of guys. It was like the children whispered. I think in many ways Gibbs, he preferred children to adults. You know, he got along better. He related better. So not like Michael Jackson. No, no, no.

No, he didn't hurt children at all. I got you. And didn't take advantage of children as far as they know. He genuinely liked them. Was this on his level? He felt comfortable. Well, and I think that was it, right? He was not the smartest guy.

And I feel like he could just relate better to children. Well, sometimes you want to be the smartest one in the room. So you got to go find that room. And I'm not even sure he was. I don't know how old these kids were. That's true. But you think about that, right? And you have to wonder how many children, Ed Gein, babysat for how many of these kids later learned.

You know, obviously, after everything came out, just what type of man had taken care of them. And oh, by the way, you got to say, you know, hey, mom. and dad, you know you let Ed Gein babysit me multiple times. What in the heck were you guys doing? Yeah. Yeah, this is why I messed up today, Mom. That's a, that's a story to tell at a dinner party years later to trump someone. You know, there's always somebody that comes out at the dinner party and thinks they have this great story. You know, that's when you bring out the Ed Gein. Oh, you think that's interesting? Let me tell you this story. Let me tell you about this time that Ed Gein was my babysitter.

Yeah. And I beat him in a game of gin rummy because I was way smarter than he was. That one time. I wonder what they were eating at dinner when you tell that story. It'd be perfect depending on what you had for dinner. Fava beans and a nice kanti. So we're up to 1942. America is in World War II.

Ed Gein's 36 years old by this time. But technically, he was still draft eligible. So he had to travel to Milwaukee from Plainfield, which is about 150 miles. Gibbs, that's the farthest that Ed Gein had ever traveled in his life from home. And the farthest that he would ever travel. Really? 150 miles. Man, I used to commute that much.

Right. The guy's 36 years old. He's never been 150 miles away from home. What was the first time you left home, farthest distance? the first time? Mm-hmm. I remember flying to Florida by myself when I was like eight or nine. Really?

To see my grandparents. Yeah. That was a pretty good trip. Yeah, that's pretty decent. When you're eight, nine years old. Yeah. Something like that. But, you know, I just, I think about that and I go back to his mother.

That probably was all because of his mother. Oh, you know, that'd be. You don't need to go anywhere because there's nothing but bad things out there. somebody's going to hurt you, they're going to take advantage of you. Yeah, and everything you needs right here anywhere. Sure. Come to Mama. Other than to go into town to do odd jobs, you don't need to go anywhere.

I'll take care of you. Nobody can take care of you like your mother. Mama gotcha. Obviously, we know. There's a lot of mommy issues that are going to crop up here. Sure. In early 1944, Henry started to badmouth his mother. Augusta. In particular, I don't think he was crazy about the relationship that had developed between

his younger brother, Ed, and his mother. It's a little hazy whether or not it was, I don't think it was sexual, but I do think there were some components of it that Henry looked at and said, that don't seem right. Pointing at the Bible when he said, I don't think that looks right, mama. Yeah. But the fact of the. The fact of the. matter was that Ed didn't like that. Ed didn't like his brother bad-mouthing his mom because Ed worshipped his mom. Sure. Even at that age, even through all of the things that she had said to him, the things that she did to him, he idolized her. He worshipped her. It's like, don't talk about mama. I'm rubbing her back. I'm rubbing her feet. Yeah. It's okay. Now, in March of that year,

44. Henry died while fighting a brush fire close to the family property. And this is kind of a fascinating story in and of itself. The story is that he and Ed were fighting this fire as it was coming closer to the family farm, but they lost side of each other as they were, you know, battling this blaze. And then all of a sudden, Ed couldn't find his brother. So he called the police. the police came out, but at one point they said Ed led them directly to Henry's body. And this has led a lot of people over the years to speculate that Ed Gein killed his brother because of the fact that he was bad-mouthing mama. Don't talk about mama.

Don't you talk about my mama. Yeah, don't do it. Now, it didn't help that it was reported that Henry had some bruises on him and was found, on a piece of land that was left unscourched by the fire. So all of these things kind of added up to it doesn't look great. It doesn't look good at all. But Ed was cleared of any wrongdoing. I think in large part because of the way police looked at Ed and it's going to be the same

way that people will look at Ed for, you know, quite some time. Ed was this shy, timid guy, right? no way was he capable of killing his brother. He just couldn't have done it. Yeah, he wouldn't do it anything wrong. He babysits the children. He never talks back. He's just a good guy.

He's never said a mean word. He doesn't stand up to people. You know, I mean, you think this guy couldn't hurt a fly type of person? Right. Well, we're going to find out that's not true,

obviously. But now it's just Ed and his mother, the two of them living on the farm together. but that's not going to last long either because the same year that Henry died, Augusta had her first stroke. And it was in December of the next year, 1945, that she died after another stroke. I think she had a number of strokes. And this one allegedly occurred after she got into a fight with a neighbor. Edgien was devastated by his mother's death.

I don't think it's too much to say. She was his whole world. And it just crumbled. Especially after his brother died. Right. His world, and you're right, his world had crumbled. Now he was all alone on the big farm, right? With no one to guide him.

So what does Ed do? He shut up all the rooms that his mom had, you know, inhabited the most, her bedroom, most of the upstairs. and a lot of the rooms downstairs that she sat in, like the parlor, he basically, from that point forward, only lived in a couple of rooms. It was said that, you know, obviously he had the kitchen. And then he had a room off the kitchen that he slept in, which I don't even think was even a bedroom. He just grabbed the mattress, probably mama's mattress, threw it on the floor. I don't think so. And here's why I don't think so. I think he shut up all the rooms. And I think he actually probably boarded him up.

He wanted those rooms that his mom spent most of her time in to be preserved exactly the way they were when his mother was a lot. Wow. Kind of like psycho. Right. The guy that wrote psycho got a lot of it from Ed Gein. There you go. It ties in.

Yeah. I think it was almost as if he was, you know, like I said, said, trying to preserve the rooms, but more than that, building a shrine to his mother. I mean, Gibbs, this guy seriously loved his mother in a way that I don't think many of us can relate to. You love your mama? I love my mom. You do. But not in this, what I call somewhat of an odd way that Ed Gein loved his mom.

You don't have a shrine. I do not have a shrine. I mean, she probably deserves one because she raised. you put up with me for all those years but i do want to play a clip there's not many clips right in the story especially in the early years but this is a clip from back in the 1950s of an interview with one of ed's neighbors how long have you known mr seven what kind of a man did you know in this well a man nice man just like anybody else the only difference i'd say the man he's to be little odd.

He was just like anyone else. The only difference I would say is he was a little odd. Yeah. Just a little odd. Just a little odd. Now, obviously, that came after some of the things about Ed Gein came out, many of which we won't fully explore until the second part of this story. But we talked about the fact that Ed was teased at school as a young kid because he acted effeminate.

And the reason that Ed. acted that way is because from a very early age, I think he was conflicted about his sexual orientation. And I think this greatly intensified after the death of his mother because think about it, now he's free, right, to explore a little bit where he was not free to do anything while his mother was alive. Right. So Ed began to read anatomy books. He read medical. books. It's been reported that he thought about cutting off his penis at different times in his life, but he decided against it. And Gibbs, I don't know if that's a procedure you can do by yourself. Doesn't seem like it would be. You'd have to like take the axe or the hatchet.

Shit, are you using an axe? I'm going big, man. If I'm going to do it, I'm going big. Putting it on a tree trunk, like a chicken's neck or something. Oh, I just, you know, I, obviously he's not going to recruit somebody else to help him do this. I mean, can you physically? I mean, obviously you can do it, but my assumption is you're going to pass out and you're going to die of blood loss. I don't think it's a procedure you should be trying to do on your own.

No, because you'd want to like chop and then grab the hot poker and stab yourself to, you know, seal the wound up. To cauterize it. Yeah. So you've thought about this a little bit. Like I said, you'd have to chop.

You seem to have a whole plan. You just have to, there's a method to it, you know. I mean, you just can't mess around. Well, if I, if I need to, I'll call you. Maybe I was going to castrate somebody. I don't know. That's true. That's a good way to get out of that.

But he did. You know, he thought about cutting it off because deep down, I don't think Ed Gein felt like he was male. I think he felt more female than male. You ever feel a little, one of them? feminine side? No, there's sometimes where I don't feel as fresh as I think I should, but no, when I have to watch some of those movies that my wife makes me watch. Yeah. And I end up really liking them and especially the ones that I just can't keep myself from crying at. Sure. Right. That's when

hits you. Yeah. Yeah. I actually, I feel like I am very in touch with my feminine side. I think you are too. I don't have a problem admitting that at all. No, you're very bold about it. My wife would, would say that as well. I'm very emotional. I will cry at, you know, certain movies. I think the hills are a bit much, but yeah,

otherwise, I guess I got you. You said hills. You know you did. Hills. We're a pair of hills? Like high hills? Yeah.

What else you're going to call? High heels. Or that. You're like, the hills are alive with the sound of something. But this is important. right? In the story of Ed Gein, this conflict that he has for basically his entire life. And then came along Christine Jorgensen.

Christine Jorgensen was an American trans woman born George Jorgensen who became famous for, I think having one of the first, if not the first, sex reassignment surgeries, This is way back in the 1950s. So went from George to Christine. Christine. So, I mean, I know it would never happen, but if you had to change you to a female name, what would it be? Michael to. I'd probably just go Michaela.

That was fast. It seemed like it'd be the easiest. That was really fast. Like I had that. You had it. I had that cocked and loaded too easily. Okay. Because it'd be the same spelling.

You just add a neon to it. Wow, that's pretty fancy there. I know. Keep it simple. How about that? You have to change your checkbook, right? You just had the A at the end. I just draw it in.

Yeah. But think about that, right? 1950s, that time frame, that society in America, not very accepting. I wouldn't think. Oh, not at all. Of a trans woman having sex reassignment surgery, but she was a pioneer when it came to this. I don't know if I want to be the first one to get something done. to try it. I don't know if she was the first one. I think she may have been the first American.

I gotcha. And I could be wrong about that. But she was definitely a pioneer in more ways than one, right? Not even if she wasn't the first, I just think having the courage to do that in 1950s America with the culture at that time, that was huge. Today, much more accepting, right? The population, our society. much more knowledgeable of those types of things. But back then, I think it was totally different. Because it wasn't like Christine could have that surgery in the United States. Just nobody did that. No.

She had to go all the way to Denmark and Sweden to have some of these procedures done. But really the key here is that Christine's story was very well publicized. and Ed Gein was able to read about her in many magazine and newspaper articles. It is thought that her story really kind of helped fuel his thinking. So inspired? Inspired or yeah, really made him start to think that he really was a female. Yeah. Trapped in a man's body.

At the very least, he wanted to experience in whatever way he could, what it was like to be a female. Right. Now, obviously, Ed didn't have the money to fly across the world to have the surgery that Christine had, not to mention his longest trip from home was 150 miles. Right. I don't think he's bored in a plane to go to Denmark. Not a world traveler.

So Ed had to come up with some other way to experience what it was like to be female. And what Ed Gein came up with would. shock people around the world. So we're talking more than just the, uh, the old tuck. Oh, yeah.

Well, he might have done that too, but this is not, you know, I'm going to dress up in women's clothes, maybe go out late at night, experience what it's like. You know,

that's going to be my experience of, of what it's like to be female. No, that's not Ed Gein. His solution was to become a grave robber. And obviously he's going to go further than that. but later, Ed said that, you know, he was visiting the cemetery where his mother was buried all the time. Because you know, he's got to go see mommy.

And while he was doing this, he began to think about the women lying underneath the ground as he's there to visit his mother's grave. Somewhat of a strange thought to have. But it wasn't very long before Ed made the decision that he was going to be. to start digging up women's bodies. So what he would do is pay attention to the newspaper. And he would look for death notices, specifically for women. And he kind of focused on middle-aged women. Right.

And he would go all over. It's estimated that he dug up graves at over 40 Wisconsin cemeteries. Oh, my. That's a lot, man. So he didn't, you know, he didn't limit himself to just, one cemetery or the cemetery where his mom was. Right. Now, Ging said that he never had sex with the bodies because he couldn't get past the smell,

which I think would be hard to do. I think it would be really hard to do. However, he did admit to masturbating to the bodies. So no doubt that there was some sort of sexual component there as well. Sure. Jacked up. Oh, very jacked up. But that's not the most jacked up part.

you think it would be because there's something else that he's doing with these bodies, these women that he's digging up. First and foremost, he's making skin suits. I like a good skin suit to wear around the house. Yeah. You know, I like to wear shorts and a t-shirt. Some people want to wear a skin suit. I wear my chaps. You wear chaps. This is obviously where the comparison to the Buffalo Bill character. Right. From Science of the Lambs comes in. There are reports that Gein would wear the suits. And I believe he had more than one for different occasions. Oh. He would dance around the house. I think he would dance outside under the moonlight in his women suits. Gotcha. But again,

this is Ed's attempt, according to him, right, to feel more feminine. And he took parts from all these different women, sewed them up into his suits that he could wear. He even sewed breasts onto the suits. And he would make them in a way, the suits in a way that he could tighten them up, much like maybe a corset. Right. So I'm picturing on the sides, he would be. have strings. Right. That he could tighten the suit up so it would be more form fitting. So he could lace up and be ready to go.

That way he would feel like it was really his skin. Like he was, he was a woman. I read reports that he cut off the, the outside of the vagina. So I'm guessing, you know, the parts of the labia. Right.

He put them into women's underwear. And then he would wear the, them around the house. I'm not sure what he did with his Schwantz. Probably tucked it back, man. He might have tucked. I don't know.

But he would even have a scalp with hair and a face. This is gruesome shit. It is. He would wear over his own, much like the Hannibal Lecter character. Yeah.

In that scene where he's trying to escape in the Sons of the Lambs. So not only does he have a body suit, he's wearing somebody's face and scalp and hair and vagina. And vagina. Yeah. He's got a vajajay. He does.

That he's wearing inside of women's underwear. He took a lot of different parts from these women that he dug up. He had heads. He would take their heads. Nothing wrong with taking somebody's head if you really, really love them. I think the law would disagree with you. Well, only if you really love them. Then you can take their head.

I don't think he loved any of these women. I don't think he knew any of these women. I don't think he did either. But obviously he took a lot of different parts of the skin. He had to, right, to make these suits. But he took internal organs as well. And he had all of this stuff at his house. I mean, we're talking heads and intestines and hearts and different skin suits.

Sounds like that Picton guy, keeping heads. Yeah. Taking them into the shower with them. Well, that was, you know, pretty sick what Picton did. Oh, sure. Yeah. There is a story that on more than one occasion, some boys came over to the house. I think one of the boys was a kid that Ed used to babysit, and they saw heads.

And I think they described them as like shrunken heads. And I think Ed told them they were like, you know, shrunken heads. Like you would get from Brazil or. Yeah, for some country where they shrink heads or they don't really shrink heads. But you know what I'm saying. All right. got you. I think you used to be able to buy those real back in the day. But these kids went home and told their parents, hey, you know, Ed Gein's got some heads in his house. And again,

they kind of laughed it off. Right. Oh, it's just, you know, it's old Ed Gein. I'm sure he bought some fake treasure hunter shrunken heads and he's messing with you. Just good old Ed. It's just, yeah. Ed would never, you know, actually have a real head. Again, I don't think people in town thought for a minute that Ed Gein could be responsible for any of the things that would ultimately come out. Now, I think a lot of people thought he was odd, a little strange, but not dangerous to the point that we're going to talk about. Right. But I do want to go back to Ed Gein's mommy issues for a minute. Because we talked about the fact that he targeted women who had reached.

recently died and had been buried. But what we haven't talked about is the fact that he tried to find specifically women that resembled his mother. I mentioned middle-aged women, but he also tried to pick out middle-aged women that were a little heavier. Okay. In some of the articles, it was the word plump was used because I think he was trying to find somebody that closely resembled his mother.

other. And of course, you know, if you're making a suit, you need to try to stay with the same body type. Right. Or your suit's not going to work at all. It's not going to fit. It's not going to fit right. No. I know that's how you would do yours, right? A little bit more room. Or have done yours. Everybody in the audience is right now picturing you as the Buffalo Bill character in front of the mirror, tuck job in place. Yeah. You know they are. That's what works for him. Nobody can get that out of their mind. Once you see that scene of him dancing around and in that kind of red flowing robe or whatever it is, stays with you forever.

He's saying some really strange things. I for one could never do this for a number of different reasons. First off, it's gross. And I could never handle the smell. I think 99.9% of the people, even if they wanted to do this, could never do. it because of the smell. The smell and then actually and the actual part of harvesting the skin

would be rough. Yeah, for me it'd be the smell. I'm not saying that would be fun either. And then secondly, I'm just a terrible sower. Yeah, you don't have that type of skills. I don't. So what I would end up with, most certainly, it would be way too small.

I'd end up looking like Chris Farley and Tommy Boy. Oh yeah. We're in David Spade's coat. Be a little rough on you. Fag guy. in a little coat. You know what you need? You would need to find somebody twice your size

and just go with the poncho look. Well, the poncho would be easy. Yeah. Yeah. If you're not going to go form fitting, it wouldn't be that hard. Yeah. Just take the chest part,

the back part, and you're done. But in all seriousness, Gibbs, I don't think that, I just can't imagine what it would take to do what Ed Gein did. We're talking about a large number of women. right, that he dug up over a number of years. Like you said, to take someone's skin off of their body and then to sit at home,

some report said he used like a tailor's dummy, right? Like the, the torso. Right. And would drape the skin over it, the different pieces and as he would sew it together. Bizarre, man. Do a crossword puzzle. Get a hobby. Make a quilt if you want to sew.

But again, that's not what this is about, right? This is about Ed Gein's feeling inside that he wants to experience what it's like to be female. And that's, that's a huge part of this thing. Right. Now, in the late 1940s and into the 1950s, Wisconsin experienced a high number of disappearances. They had a high number of unsolved homicides. Obviously, once the authorities figure out who Ed. Gein is and exactly, you know, these strange things that he's done over the years,

a lot of cases are going to either be reopened or relooked at, and like a lot of killers. You know, Ed Gein eventually becomes dissatisfied with making his suits out of these women that he's digging up. They're already dead. He starts to think that he needs. needs to choose the women. He needs to have women that are still alive. So more customizable? Yeah, maybe. I think he wants to select women in life. Yeah. Murder them and then do the same thing that he's been doing with the women that he's been digging up. Well, one, they won't smell. Right. But also,

these are women that, and we're going to get into this more in part two, women that he, women that he, sees women that he covets. Oh, yeah. You know, that he has an attachment to in some way, not just some random name in the newspaper. And then he goes and digs them up. The connection. There's a connection there.

I think Ed Gein from the beginning, right? He got great satisfaction out of his suits. That's what I'll call him. I don't know what else to call him. you know, at first. But like everything, eventually it starts to wear off. And as the years went by, he probably was not getting the same euphoric feeling as he did in the beginning. We see this in a lot of cases, right? This is why killers ratchet things up go from, okay, they're doing this for a time. now whatever they're doing doesn't give them the same type of satisfaction.

They've got to do something more outlandish or more horrific. Stepping it up. To get the same level. Right. And that's what Ed Gein's going to do. But we'll get into that as well as, you know, the murders. We haven't talked about him killing anyone except for possibly his brother. And shockingly, it's bad.

Oh, yeah. Already. He hasn't really technically, no, maybe murdered anyone. But that'll come in part two of the story that will come out next Sunday. When that comes out, I think you and I will be flying home from New Orleans.

So hopefully all goes well. Yeah. Neither of us gets lost on Bourbon Street. Neither of us gets locked up. I am doing the 5K through the tough part of town. Is that after we have our binge? After the bignets. After the bignets, after drinks, something like they tape a bunch of $10 bills to me. And I run down an alley that's kind of known for not as safe and see if I come back out.

Kind of known for not as safe. For not being as safe. Not being as safe. Yeah. It's been a long day. I don't know. What I do know is there is a lot of things that can go bad in New Orleans. Yeah. And hopefully, if you get to Sunday night, at 8 o'clock and you don't see a new episode in your feed, then you know something went horribly wrong. Yeah, with Mike. With one of us. I'll just take my K-bar with me. I'll be all right. No, I'm excited to be down there. No, I'm excited to. I'm excited to see some of the fans and,

you know, get to see people that we've met before, meet new people. I'm going to let loose. It's going to be a lot of fun. But that's it. That's it for the first part of Ed Gein, a lot more to come. So when we come back next week, should everybody have their skin suits on? I think to get the full effect of the episode. Yeah. Of the Ed Gein experience, you need a skin suit. Get a skin suit. Dude, to sit there and think about seriously, what it would take to make a human suit. Man. You know how hard it is to dig up a body by hand? Yeah. First of all, To dig up graves. It'd be rough.

I mean, he's not, he doesn't have the equipment that, that they use at the cemetery. I'm assuming he's going out there with a shovel and digging up graves. Yep. Hauling these women out. Skinning. Yeah. And, you know, his house is just full of skin parts and heads. And, I mean, it is.

But he did have time to sit back and masturbate. He had a lot of time. Let me masturbate at this grave site before I go back home. Yeah, he had a lot of time. And the thing about Ed is nobody really, besides those couple of kids, there's nobody really coming to Ed's house. There's no reason to go see Ed Gein. No.

Right? He doesn't have a girlfriend. He really doesn't have any friends. Shocker. He didn't have a girlfriend. He didn't have any friends. Nobody's going to do the pop-in. So if you know that guy right now that has never had a girlfriend and is old enough

that he should have had at least one girlfriend, but still has not had one girlfriend. I wouldn't go over to his place. There might be a reason why. Either that or he could be still trying to figure out what his real sexual orientation is. It doesn't mean he's a murderer. Maybe he's trying to find Mrs. or Mr. Wright still. We don't know. Mr. or Mrs. Wright fits good skin suit person.

All right, we've got some voicemails. You want to check those out? Yep. Hey, guys. This is Bill from Utah. Spent a lot of time to listen to the podcast. Enjoy it. It kills a lot of time out here.

I'm just curious. I just listened to the Utah Ogden High Five murders. You know, I was a teenager when that happened that stood out. They're pretty accurate on that one. Got a couple more, Ronnie Lee Gardner, story out of Utah, executed here maybe 10 years ago. And the other one's Ron and Dan Lafferty who killed their sister-in-law and her infant daughter, way back in the 80s. One of them, I think,'s on death row,

and the other one's sitting in life in prison out of Utah. Anyway, keep your own time ticking. Good to hear it. Man, take care. So a couple of good suggestions. I got a kick out of that one when I first heard of Gibbs because he said, listen to the hi-fi. We did pretty good on that.

So what he said. I'm glad we did. I think we were pretty accurate. That's good. We strived to be pretty accurate. Yeah, we should just be. accurate. No, pretty accurate.

Pretty accurate. 92%. All right. Accuracy rate. No, I just got a kick out of it. I knew what he meant. Yeah. Utah.

Uts. Hey, Mike. And give me, I was just sitting here, listening to another one of your podcast. I'm talking about Don Notts. I think that was Mr. Pig or something like that. He was a fish.

Yeah, he was a fish and they had big glasses on them. But anyway, I got a couple more of cases that you might, check out one of them is of norah jackson out of Memphis supposedly killed her mother to serve time and then they acquitted her of the murder and also jessie dotson that's a horrible crime and it's really really good anyway this is robert cobb by the way i've uh contacted you before uh and anxious to hear my name on the radio but anyway love you love your show love you guys y'all are both great uh really fun to listen to and enjoyable out this was to you all time but anyway

Good work there. Keep taking on your own time there, buddy. So that's Robert. Good old Robert. He emails quite a bit. We go back and forth. You want to hear his name on the radio. Well, no, he just did. By him. He said his name on the radio. He did. Kind of on the podcast. Yeah. Well, it's close. On the air, I guess you would call it. Same. I mean, it's out there. He had some good suggestions that the Norj Jackson one. We've actually had a lot of requests for that. Have we? Yeah. You're going to have to look into that for Unsal.

Yeah, it's all my love. Because technically I think it would be unsolved because she was acquitted. Right. If that's the way it worked out. Hi, Mike and Givie. This is Sherry from Northern Alberta, Canada. And I just wanted to phone and let you know that how much I love, love, love your show. I listen to quite a few criminal podcasts and yours is my favorite by far.

So thank you for all your hard work, you guys, put into the podcast. And I am for Team for Gibson. Anyways, I just wanted to tell you about a fellow from Vancouver, Vancouver, BC by the name of Clifford Olson. He was a serial child rapist in murder, and in a span of eight months, he managed to murder 11 children and teens aged 9 to 18 years. It's quite a story and how he just manipulated. the police, the media, and everything like that. It's a really interesting story. And so, yeah, thanks again, guys.

And as we say in Canada, keep your stick on the ice and keep your own time ticking. Bye. Keep your stick on the ice. That's a new one. I never heard that. Keep your stick on the ice. And keep your own time ticking. Clifford Olson is a monster.

Sounded like it. Yeah, it'd be a good episode, but it would be a very rough one. But it's one that we'll definitely look at, make sure we have on the list. Bernie Gibson. Yo, it's your boy. Yo dirty from the woodlands attack from the bottom of my hand killer. I just want to say, thank you. I have a, there's nothing.

I'm just so happy that I can keep listening. So keep doing y'all. Keep it up. It's a good word. Wow. Yeah, exactly. Wow. That's what I was going to say.

Got to feel good about that. Yeah. Did he say his name was Yo dirty? Something like that or go dirty? I don't know. I don't either. I don't think that's the real name, but. So he said he had an hour and a half drive.

It's pretty lengthy. Yeah. Then he said he had an hour and a half drive back, which makes sense. What would have really thrown me is if he would have said, I have an hour and a half drive to work and a 37-minute drive home. That would have thrown you off. That would have thrown me. Now, you can have that if you are driving into like a downtown area. True.

And then coming back with traffic. Right. Can happen. Still would have thrown me a little bit. Yeah. All right. We had mailbag. So our good friend Lottie.

Yeah. Sent my daughter who just graduated and had her tonsils out in the span of four days a pamper basket. Really? Yeah. It had all kinds of bath, shower stuff, like bath bombs. My daughter was so amazed that. someone that liked the show would send her something that she cried. Oh.

Yeah. So I had to message Lottie and let her know. But that's the type of fans we have, right? Loyal, caring. You and I have talked about it a million times. We are amazed at the type of fans that we have and the things that they do for us. It's just unbelievable. It's amazing.

But I also know that she probably was crying because you, took the bath bombs from her because you wanted to use them for your own bath because I know you like bath time. She probably was crying because she's on hydrocodone for for her getting her tonsils out. But no, she did. She was really touched by it. Yeah, that's nice. And then Brian Hayes from Cookville, Tennessee sent us some jerky. Oh yeah. And he sent a couple of chips. One's a Harley chip. But the other one is a Milwaukee Brewing Company chip, which is very cool. Oh, that is cool. he also sent a $1 bill. Oh, yeah.

And asked me to use the $1 bill to help buy you a new chair. Well, that's nice. We'll get there. So obviously he believes your line of BS about not sitting in a $700 chair that I bought for you so that I wouldn't have to listen to you complaining. That would be nice if I had that. You do have that. So that's what I think.

If everybody sends in, a dollar, I'll get me a really good share. If 700 people send in a dollar, I can buy you one just like you just, that you're sitting in right now. All right, Gibbs, that's it. That's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.